Wake, may I ask you a personal thing?
How would you rate your fluency in English, assuming I'm correct in remembering that it is not your first language?
I was wondering the same thing but thought it'd be rude to ask.
As for sloth asking about tubba....I can’t get new info from someone not doing much. He gets back Burnered cause there’s more active players to work with at the moment drawing my attention.
And since I don’t much think it matters anymore and I can’t find it in me to care....antagonized people sometimes say more than they need to. Eliciting an emotional response is telling sometimes. That’s why.
Hrm.
Just an fyi, intentionally antagonizing people for the purpose of getting them to have an negative emotional reaction is generally frowned upon as kind of a dick move – this might have been what Font was talking about when she told you to back off. And I agree?
Of relevance to the game is what you gain from emotional responses is very subjective. What emotional response would a frustrated scum have than a frustrated townie wouldn’t?
I want you to answer this because I feel like you know this is the case, so if you are saying that you don’t, then you had expectations in mind for either.
I'll scream if I was right and JT is actually font's partner.
So I reread page 4 and I’m not sure what specifically about that got me your vote on page...46. I’ll wait for you to elaborate lol.
Also...last guess: Fluff.
so sloth is attacking my read of him in matter as a strawman
Its
Probably not actually scummy, im not really engaging sloth in his area. Discrediting is about all hes got to defend himself i guess
But yeah
Thats what this post is
Yeah, that is not what a strawman argument is.
A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.
(why is no one questioning the giant talking owls...?
Holding you accountable for the entirety of your argument is not a strawman argument.
You are correct that I am prodding you for:
Saying I lack tenacity when you already used that argument to inaccurately scumread me before.
Using the basketball analogy to compare my towngame vs my scumgame, one again, inaccurately.
Doubling-down on these when questioned.
Softly prodding other angels on occasion (why are you prodding your townread?)
And that’s it. Because that’s all you’ve given.
For a strawman fallacy, there should be more to your arguments that I’m purposefully ignoring. But there isn’t, I’ve addressed all of it as best as I’m able.
Therefore, this is not strawman.
What you did show, though, is an example of you gaslighting me, congrats.
Anyway, if you do happen to have anything more to say on me, bring it on and I’ll address it – but it won’t mean this wasn’t a bad look on you.
Otherwise go away, I’ll bury you if scum when I get the energy.
I played a high consuming game before this and i am a little air headed. Thanks for your points, i will try to answer when the night will fall to bring cooler air from outside because i had such a hot day that i can't even think.
So i will tell you my ideas in few hours or Sunday
You never answered this and you don’t seem to be being pressed on it. Please do.
There is no way he read those games through to see ZDS's meta and come with a wrong read, you are not realistic.
From Amy's wall i understood she TRs ZDS. :shrug
You didn't notice all the points i see. Why are you cherry picking my ideas?
Lol.
About the bolded: What are you saying here, exactly? It sounds like you think that he couldn’t have possibly been wrong on his read of Dork if he read the games in detail?
Is that correct?
@WMU: You're right. There, I said it. I had time to vote you... BUT I wanted to research more before I did, which I didn't have time for. So you can go ahead and vote away for me if that's your case, that I should have voted you without double checking the thread first. Sorry I told you to die before I was 100% ready to vote for you. If that's the case then check this out:
Guess who called me scum for sure and didn't vote (yes, because I was the main one pushing the ZDS lynch)?
Good lord.
Anyone that’s townreading Joe really needs to explain to me why this post isn’t raising more flags.
Regardless of your thoughts on Wake (and I don’t think they could possibly be w/w together at this point), how is this not horribly OMGUSy or massively paranoid and/or reachy?
I don’t see town having this level of paranoia.
I also note a few familiar faces - hi Jackrito/Amy and I guess also Sloth!
Sup!
Right there with you with team-drainage.
I noticed you haven’t really asked me anything of me in you catch-ups whereas your predecessor had a small fixation. Not to be too egocentric, but does that mean anything?
I would like your read on Tom in particular, given your initial interactions this game.
In particular, I'm confused how you apparently decided that info wasn't useful unless he was "on the chopping block and/or planning on getting nightkilled". To make that claim while under pressure near EoD is going to result in his lynch nearly every time, right? It's kinda hard to believe you were seriously considering "Why say it now?" enough to pull a 180 when you seem to have given no thought to "Why not say it later?"
@sloth you gave this last post a +1 - same question to you
Sorry, what is the question? Why did I think Last claiming what he did when he did was bad?
If so, it’s pretty much what Amy said: I don’t think this is info that needed to be in the game at the time, and there was no particular advantage to bringing it up then. Sure it would have looked bad if he brought it up under pressure, but that doesn’t mean it’s beneficial to Town to bring it up early game.
In fact, pretty sure it isn’t: If Last is town (and I’m assuming he is, at least, not scum), I would be surprised if his death wasn’t at least partially related to his claim. At least in a situation where he claims while being run-up, even if he gets exec, there’d be less confusion which is pro-town. And that’s actually not a guarantee on this site – claims can often overturn a lynch, even just for one phase (though presumably he’d still have been the NK so eh).
Anyway, bringing it up when he did was to no benefit, much like Lagoon’s claim of not being targeted.
(Last does to those sort of claims a lot, but he could do them as both alignments and the way he was approaching the game here wasn’t endearing him to me.)
All right, I looked at some stuff. I am not note-dumping, but I have identified a potential mafia, and at this point I am still hoping my target is town and I am not shooting myself in the foot by scum-hunting.
Feel free to ignore this, but under what circumstances would you be willing to give us more info on your target?
@Axel I don’t think Trisscar is scum. This post is an example of why: The stream of thought/half-ramble seems too natural and genuine to be fake. What are your thoughts on this?
for Not Mafia reads, and everyone else is kind of just floating in the void. tom's okay but I feel some type of way with how he's kind of just written me off.
Hm. Is Tubba there due to Wisp reason or do you have more?
Any thoughts on Font's partner?
@Rodemy: the fact KJ is using the setup is proof enough. KJ never does that.
I think Sloth is scum, but I’m only 14 pages in. I have another 30 to go through :/
I don't like this post by Rhand. It tries to use a very narrow variation of a very broad subject to try to corner me. I've even said why it's wrong and he's ignoring it,.
Point me to the why? I must have missed it, 'cause I don't remember it.
someone asked me earlier for a more articulate towncase on tom
the short answer is "i think the way he transitioned out of giffing displayed towny motivation and i think his thoughts since then have been really solid"
a long answer would have to wait for me to not be half asleep and i would hope just wouldn't be necessary to begin with
I would like there to be a long answer.
I don’t really like where Tom’s focus and where his mentality and process have been this game so far.
The role is a vanilla-izer too. It makes no sense to have that on the scumteam. Wisp was town.
Wait, can we rewind? I reread the role again to make sure I wasn’t missing something. How is Wisp a “vanillizer”? As far as I could tell, nothing about the wording indicates the Dark Mark (or anything about Riddle) takes away abilities.
I told you I wasn't sure where it was and ask you to direct me to where you explained your reaction to 864. Now that you've directed me to it I can read and answer. What I gain from this is insight as to your reaction to 864...I didn't understand why that to draw from your phrasing was the straw to break the camels back...I'd seen the reactive Town!Rod plenty before that so that post didn't strike me as anything special.
What insight did you get, exactly?
To answer your unasked question, Rod acting as described in that post is exactly what seemed Town to me (where before he wasn’t) so I took note of it.
What is your read of Rod?
Why do you say Dork's wagon most likely didn't have scum? Is there a reason you think the Dork wagon's entirely composed of town beyond Wake's focus on it?
Why is Lagoon town for you again?
I wanted to circle back on this.
Who do you think is scum on the above mentioned wagon? Obviously, not counting Fulcrum.
All of it has been mentioned in one way or another in my posts: I’m looking at Lagoon and Tom, as well as trying to figure out Rodemy and you.
Why do you say Dork's wagon most likely didn't have scum? Is there a reason you think the Dork wagon's entirely composed of town beyond Wake's focus on it?
Why is Lagoon town for you again?
I wanted to circle back on this.
Who do you think is scum on the above mentioned wagon? Obviously, not counting Fulcrum.
All of it has been mentioned in one way or another in my posts: I’m looking at Lagoon and Tom, as well as trying to figure out Rodemy and you.
@Joe did you want to continue this conversation?
Also Tubba's just kind of gone.
Yes, please continue. Also RE your #2502. I believe I was already voting WMU at that point, who in turn OMGUS at me, which I was calling out. You may want to re-read that exchange.
Why do you say Dork's wagon most likely didn't have scum? Is there a reason you think the Dork wagon's entirely composed of town beyond Wake's focus on it?
Why is Lagoon town for you again?
I wanted to circle back on this.
Who do you think is scum on the above mentioned wagon? Obviously, not counting Fulcrum.
All of it has been mentioned in one way or another in my posts: I’m looking at Lagoon and Tom, as well as trying to figure out Rodemy and you.
@Joe did you want to continue this conversation?
Also Tubba's just kind of gone.
Yes, please continue. Also RE your #2502. I believe I was already voting WMU at that point, who in turn OMGUS at me, which I was calling out. You may want to re-read that exchange.
Sort of not thinking about Rodemy right now - if he's town, then I've pretty much been very cruel to him on my last batch of posts. With the benefit of stepping back and just not expecting certain things from him, I can see him being town still, emotional reaction notwithstanding. Your thoughts?
(I really did like what he did towards Wake and the effort in it.)
I'd like to note you never did answer me about why you see Lagoon as town.
And tom is doing this bizarre thing where he's acting like his case on me is impenetrable and my flip as scum is a done deal, despite him not actually saying anything of substance and acting like my responses are a result of his focus, not an avoidance of them. No one else has commented on that particular aspect of his play towards me so far, so.
As for you, obviously I'm observing you. I hear what you're saying re:#2502. You are voting him, and there was a degree of OMGUS in his actions.
However, this doesn't truly address what I'm saying.
Specifically in that post you go "yes I could have voted you and didn't, you're right, but AHA, you could have as well and didn't, GOTCHA, argument, disabled!!!" which on its own its pretty bad, ngl. What makes it worse is that once again (as I brought up for earlier posts) the quote you bring up is only peripherally related to you (it could apply to a blanket of players, as Rod brought up), and you're making it about you with the egocentric paranoia of scum.
When Wake is acting OMGUSy towards Ter or you, I can at least see a townie with a wounded pride feeling personally attacked that his case that is specifically geared towards a player is being disparaged. Townies can have wounded prides and, yes, bad cases.
Scums are the ones that are more often overtly paranoid for no reason, and that's kind of where you're coming in - Wake is placing too much weight on the "die scum" bit...but he's also not wrong on the strong reaction vs. lack of action.
On the other hand, the more time that passes the more I wonder if this is another ******* t/t wagon and if so, godamnit.
I'll scream if I was right and JT is actually font's partner.
So I reread page 4 and I’m not sure what specifically about that got me your vote on page...46. I’ll wait for you to elaborate lol.
Also...last guess: Fluff.
Jesus Christ, Sloth, when did you transition from wallposts to spamming THIRTEEN two-liners in a row?
I got old. It’s more fun for me this way.
NOT Fluff then.
Damn it!
Still want to know more about your read on me, please.
(and I get it. I'm pretty tired too. I think it's because I'm finding it hard to find a solid thread.)
As for t om, it's kinda hard to get a read when all he's done has been ask me questions?
Contrast to Amy - she was, like, explaining things and seemingly trying to help me get up to speed, but didn't really seem to care for my takes on things or directing me anywhere
t om kinda hopped in like he knows me (truthfully, probably not really) and has just been throwing question after question at me
apparently he was just spamming gifs earlier in the game but the way these two have approached relatively the same interactions on my slot have been extremely different
I liked Amy's tone more than t om's but I think ultimately it's more likely someone who chooses to just barrage my slot with questions to try and force me to take stances early is town, and in fact I've been incredibly surprised that he's the only person choosing to do so when I expected to get bombarded immediately upon replacing in
@sloth you gave this last post a +1 - same question to you
Sorry, what is the question? Why did I think Last claiming what he did when he did was bad?
lol don't get cute I answered that one already. And it was just one question which, as said, had already been more or less answered by another player prior to you asking.
I also asked you something.
@WMU: You're right. There, I said it. I had time to vote you... BUT I wanted to research more before I did, which I didn't have time for. So you can go ahead and vote away for me if that's your case, that I should have voted you without double checking the thread first. Sorry I told you to die before I was 100% ready to vote for you. If that's the case then check this out:
Guess who called me scum for sure and didn't vote (yes, because I was the main one pushing the ZDS lynch)?
Good lord.
Anyone that’s townreading Joe really needs to explain to me why this post isn’t raising more flags.
Regardless of your thoughts on Wake (and I don’t think they could possibly be w/w together at this point), how is this not horribly OMGUSy or massively paranoid and/or reachy?
I don’t see town having this level of paranoia.
I agree it's reachy but like that doesn't make Joe scum when I can like completely see where he's coming from every step of the way on Axel and the rest of his posts seem generally agreeable
He has good takes and a thought process that I can see and it's just real
idrc if he's gonna get paranoid over votes when that's not nearly AI as the way he has approached the rest of the game
Let’s not argue about it anymore, it’s wine on the table. I agree with alpaca that pressure on Tom is relevant. He’s not helping town by being obtuse, and while I can understand the thoughts behind letting him do his thing for another day, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s not pro-town play. People were ready to lynch axle for not being pro-town, it’s somehow hat puzzling that those same people don’t have a similar take on Tom. Apples aren’t oranges but fruit is fruit. NegTown is NegTown. Axle resolved via pressure, I’m not against making Tom do the same.
@kpaca if your intent is to try and convince people to actually pressure t om into changing his posting, why not do exactly what Tubba did here and lay out a concise argument for why it's a good idea that people can get behind instead of just yelling about it
It kinda rings hollow when tubba can put forward more actually compelling reasons in one short paragraph than you've managed in like 15 or 20 posts
I will add you to a list of people who were not interested in pressuring anti town behavior. Should tom take this to the grave and flip scum, I will immediately look your direction.
Regards,
Me.
and like
what scum teamed with t om would so openly copy his gifposting just to throw a yawn at you pushing it
It seems incredibly hard to justify the risk just to, what, antagonize you?
Walk me through what you hope to gain by bullying the rest of the thread on this because I don't buy the "they're likely w/w for this" angle
Terry doesn't take me as the player to build off others' thoughts
#1219
#1220
#1222
#1223
are a decent combination of useless, fluffy, and backpacking off others
vote: Terry
Terry is town from the early day stuff alone.
There is no combination of useless and fluffy that is greater than Tom Slogers.
@kpaca can you walk me through what you see in Terry because you haven't ever actually said it, just stopped people from voting him by saying he's town
@kpaca if your intent is to try and convince people to actually pressure t om into changing his posting, why not do exactly what Tubba did here and lay out a concise argument for why it's a good idea that people can get behind instead of just yelling about it
It kinda rings hollow when tubba can put forward more actually compelling reasons in one short paragraph than you've managed in like 15 or 20 posts
The yelling worked eventually. I’m posting from an iPad a lot and it’s just easier that way tbh.
Not that this isn’t how ive played mafia since 2009 or anything like that.
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what scum teamed with t om would so openly copy his gifposting just to throw a yawn at you pushing it
It seems incredibly hard to justify the risk just to, what, antagonize you?
Walk me through what you hope to gain by bullying the rest of the thread on this because I don't buy the "they're likely w/w for this" angle
I don’t work off of such absolutes as you. Maybe I decide tom isn’t scum. Maybe I decide their both scum. Maybe I decide neither? It’s day one hombre, and once again....even when it looks like I’m working in absolutes; I’m not.
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@kpaca can you walk me through your thoughts on Jackrito because unlike your other scumreads up to that point calling him scummy really came out of nowhere
With WMU, you've been engaging somewhat and eventually explaining things which is arguably at least similar to your pushes on Wisp and t om, but Jackrito had about the same effort as your townreads behind it - ie none at all
I’m not sure how a post about terry being town is a head scratcher because I thought Last was scum for non mechanic related reasons. Care to explain?
If your initial scumread was entirely predicated on reads and you spent posts upon posts talking about it, why do your townreads (turns out this became a pattern) just get tossed out with no actual provided reasoning?
@kpaca if your intent is to try and convince people to actually pressure t om into changing his posting, why not do exactly what Tubba did here and lay out a concise argument for why it's a good idea that people can get behind instead of just yelling about it
It kinda rings hollow when tubba can put forward more actually compelling reasons in one short paragraph than you've managed in like 15 or 20 posts
The yelling worked eventually. I’m posting from an iPad a lot and it’s just easier that way tbh.
Not that this isn’t how ive played mafia since 2009 or anything like that.
Almost all of my posts are from my phone so I'm not sure I really agree with that mentality at all
what scum teamed with t om would so openly copy his gifposting just to throw a yawn at you pushing it
It seems incredibly hard to justify the risk just to, what, antagonize you?
Walk me through what you hope to gain by bullying the rest of the thread on this because I don't buy the "they're likely w/w for this" angle
I don’t work off of such absolutes as you. Maybe I decide tom isn’t scum. Maybe I decide their both scum. Maybe I decide neither? It’s day one hombre, and once again....even when it looks like I’m working in absolutes; I’m not.
There's a difference between not working in absolutes and pulling things out of your ass and I really think "if tom flips scum I'm looking at you next" is from the latter category
Are scum here normally so brazen as to antagonize town pushing their teammate for doing something by doing that same thing defiantly right back at them?
@kpaca can you walk me through your thoughts on Jackrito because unlike your other scumreads up to that point calling him scummy really came out of nowhere
With WMU, you've been engaging somewhat and eventually explaining things which is arguably at least similar to your pushes on Wisp and t om, but Jackrito had about the same effort as your townreads behind it - ie none at all
Where are you at on him?
I’m waiting with a spring loaded trap!! I need to probably double back on focusing on his day2 posts before I expound, because I might change my mind.
Rain check but if I don’t change my mind I’ll explain?
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As for t om, it's kinda hard to get a read when all he's done has been ask me questions?
Contrast to Amy - she was, like, explaining things and seemingly trying to help me get up to speed, but didn't really seem to care for my takes on things or directing me anywhere
t om kinda hopped in like he knows me (truthfully, probably not really) and has just been throwing question after question at me
apparently he was just spamming gifs earlier in the game but the way these two have approached relatively the same interactions on my slot have been extremely different
I liked Amy's tone more than t om's but I think ultimately it's more likely someone who chooses to just barrage my slot with questions to try and force me to take stances early is town, and in fact I've been incredibly surprised that he's the only person choosing to do so when I expected to get bombarded immediately upon replacing in
so gth I think he's town
Interesting on Amy, I hadn't noticed that myself in the way she was engaging you, but curious to see what she says.
re: Tom; I also am taking note of your conclusions on his approach to you, which are different from mine.
You're correct, he's hit off the gate strong and what pinged me was you noting that the two of you don't have a lot of experience together and him not being able to disprove that (that section felt like a semi-awkward stumble on his part). His bombardment of you, then, was not due to familiarity. The nature of his questions (what do you think of x and y, is hipocrisy scummy, etc.) are blanket questions that I can see town!Tom asking but the way he was approaching it seemed like he was keeping you off-balance with influx rather than figuring you out.
It definitely left me feeling you're not aligned.
I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but the different perceptions here are important.
re: caveat; imo Tom has been off this game, his overt focus on Riddle early D2 was alarming as it was a pointless venue that did not help town. His approach to me has been bizarre and should not be a viable approach in his eyes (and no one can convince me otherwise), and his way of "proving himself right" (I guess) about his read seem more like a foregone conclusion than an attempt to solve me. In general, his solving's not been very deep, mostly surface - admittedly, he could just not be sharing his findings, but I'm having a hard time finding and indication of something deeper.
Except for (1) his towncore, which I can kind of follow...but towncores are not extremely hard when you're scum; (2) his search for font's partner, though he's only looking at font's interactions with other players and not into the player's actions with her, which does add a level of shallowness.
Anyway, not loving him.
Good lord.
Anyone that’s townreading Joe really needs to explain to me why this post isn’t raising more flags.
Regardless of your thoughts on Wake (and I don’t think they could possibly be w/w together at this point), how is this not horribly OMGUSy or massively paranoid and/or reachy?
I don’t see town having this level of paranoia.
I agree it's reachy but like that doesn't make Joe scum when I can like completely see where he's coming from every step of the way on Axel and the rest of his posts seem generally agreeable
He has good takes and a thought process that I can see and it's just real
idrc if he's gonna get paranoid over votes when that's not nearly AI as the way he has approached the rest of the game
I've read his iso and I think he is town
fyi, I elaborate more on this on 2512, as it's not the first instance I've noticed that sort of behavior - though presumably you read it in his ISO.
It's not exactly paranoid about being suspected, more like paranoid without ever being (in-thread) suspected and the "desperation" (I don't know if this is the right word) to turn it around on the accuser.
Noted, however.
Also fair point on Jack. I just remember more of him in other games except Marblelympics - @Jack?
Eh, maybe not.
Pretty much what you've said on him has been noted by one or all of us.
D1 I had him as town/townlean (can't be bothered to check) based on his "disturbing obsession" with Tom's read. Kinda feel like scum would have dropped it at one point when most players were telling him to just shut up.
Something else that made me okay leaving him be that Day too was that once Tom had stopped the gimmick and K kept harping on on why, I flat-out asked him two questions to add more validity to his read, fully expecting he won't be able to. His answers were actually reasonable, so at least showed that he was thinking on it on a deeper level and not riding out the vague townread he was getting at the time.
Although I don't remember much of him toDay, so I'll take a look at his ISO.
If your initial scumread was entirely predicated on reads and you spent posts upon posts talking about it, why do your townreads (turns out this became a pattern) just get tossed out with no actual provided reasoning?A
Almost all of my posts are from my phone so I'm not sure I really agree with that mentality at all B
There's a difference between not working in absolutes and pulling things out of your ass and I really think "if tom flips scum I'm looking at you next" is from the latter category C
Are scum here normally so brazen as to antagonize town pushing their teammate for doing something by doing that same thing defiantly right back at them?
I find that hard to believe D
In that case I'm asking you to please re-explain your townreads in more detail for the guy who just replaced in E
See bolded letters
A.) it is important to share some of my reads so people can at least get a basic idea of some things I believe, even if they don’t know why I believe them necessarily.
B). Well you’re a better man/woman/non-binary than me I guess.
C.) I mean you’re welcome to believe I’m pulling this out my ass all you want. I’m not and I have a decade of meta that backs this up. Sooooo, *shrug*. I even sorta explained a bit about my play style somewhere day one. Am I Lebron James? No; not as town. But I have sporadic all star performances.
D.). This is you dealing with an absolute to me. Anything could be possible scum wise. Some are brazen. Some are hesitant. Some are bad. Some are good. It’s about getting in the mindset and personality.
E.). Okay, maybe. But first, why? I’m not gonna explain all of them but maybe pick one and I’ll give a sentence or two? I feel like I gave a few sentences on Terry and recently Rhand.
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I guess my point is that I’m okay with being “old man yells at cloud right now”; while simultaneously being frustrated that more people aren’t yelling with me.
Out of everything he's done, throwing a townread at the slot that would eventually flip town but remaining entirely and completely uninvested in trying to convince anybody else of them being town and then turning around and saying he's just fine shouting about his pet t om read is such a classic scum move to grab credit for their reads without ever actually needing to act on them to save the townies
I also don't understand this 180 he pulled whatsoever because there was literally no progression in between the above post calling him town and the following two
so i guess my question is this: how do you think scum handles the evolving tom wagon if tom's scum and the tom voters are town?
Considering how little value scum tom would/had brought to the table (taking away all factors of role wifom) I wouldn’t be surprised if some went for an early bus, in fact that was my first thought but as I’ve said the only one I bring into question is tubba. So really, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are going on my wagon. Saying how scum handle a wagon without knowing who said scum are is just a guessing game.
but if you think scum aren't piling onto him, you also have to admit that they aren't defending him, either
I wouldn’t defend a slot that has brought little to the table as scum either that would look bad on a flip. If scum are defending town they’re doing it by saying lynching the gif poster is bad. However they can’t do that anymore so it gives more wiggle room.
think the way they slid onto this particular wagon, egging on kpaca's tunnel, was just kinda slimy. and that's never a w/w interaction
We can agree to disagree on this.
but everything after that seems... jumbled, and it's jumbled in a way where i can't really get myself to see what you're seeing.
Then you should be asking me more questions on what you don’t understand. You do know 2 of the votes on my wagon are empty because the reasoning has been proven wrong and they’re just sitting
you stated that tubba was the only person you were scumreading on the ZDS wagon, but ZDS is near the very bottom of my list, and townreading him is like a super spicy take in comparison to the rest of the thread. and at times it just seems like you're... not really considering the things
I feel like I can be throwing this right back at you. I’ve mulled over a lot of things in my head and yes I am not going to spam post and I keep some thoughts to myself but to say I haven’t considered things is so blatantly incorrect. Yes I get that my read is ‘spicy’ as you put it but that doesn’t stop me from having it. I have offered open discussion on my reads and if no one wants to take me on them and just vote me then truly I cannot do much. I know you are not meaning to make this offensive, but considering I read the whole front to back minus 5 pages in about 2 days and had to catch up, my weakest point in the game mind you. Sure, I could 'miss' some things. But to say I don't consider? Come on now.
Even after reading your explanation; I do not understand how your read on Tom is basically "other peoples' interactions with Tom has made me scum read Tom".
I will probably vote you when I am done rereading, I am refraining currently as for all I know you are L-1 by the time I get to page 36.
this is like the third rain check I've gotten and I've been here for like three pages
I think this setup has just made a lot of us lose intrest tbh. I feel that way and just burned the hell out tbh which started during the team game but I hid it by just copying my team's reads. So atm I'm just coasting off shooting a town because it was counter wagon which has got me town read heavy, which is a bit crazy lol. I don't have scum hunting motivation which I should be as a town read for most though so just hoping something clicks soon.
Quote from from="Slothful »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/817898-voldemorts-throne-room-mafia-day-2?comment=2502” »
Hrm.
Just an fyi, intentionally antagonizing people for the purpose of getting them to have an negative emotional reaction is generally frowned upon as kind of a dick move – this might have been what Font was talking about when she told you to back off. And I agree?
I know you’re not intending to but I don’t need to be lectured on it twice when I stopped. Was I a bit antagonistic? Sure but I think you’re making a much bigger deal out of it than it was and its distracting at this point.
Quote from from="Slothful »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/817898-voldemorts-throne-room-mafia-day-2?comment=2502” »
What emotional response would a frustrated scum have than a frustrated townie wouldn’t?
I want you to answer this because I feel like you know this is the case, so if you are saying that you don’t, then you had expectations in mind for either.
What is it with your questions this game? You never seem to just ask a question and wait for an answer. Every other question has you explaining why your asking it and its leading and weird as hell.
Truth be told I don’t know what I was expecting. I was applying a different kind of pressure to see what came of it. It didn’t lead anywhere and no one else seemed to see issue so I moved on. Your question only has an answer if I’m omniscient and know exactly how every pressure I put out there is going to be responded to.
Hrm.
Just an fyi, intentionally antagonizing people for the purpose of getting them to have an negative emotional reaction is generally frowned upon as kind of a dick move – this might have been what Font was talking about when she told you to back off. And I agree?
Of relevance to the game is what you gain from emotional responses is very subjective. What emotional response would a frustrated scum have than a frustrated townie wouldn’t?
I want you to answer this because I feel like you know this is the case, so if you are saying that you don’t, then you had expectations in mind for either.
So I reread page 4 and I’m not sure what specifically about that got me your vote on page...46. I’ll wait for you to elaborate lol.
Also...last guess: Fluff. I got old. It’s more fun for me this way.
Yeah, that is not what a strawman argument is.
(why is no one questioning the giant talking owls...?
You are correct that I am prodding you for:
For a strawman fallacy, there should be more to your arguments that I’m purposefully ignoring. But there isn’t, I’ve addressed all of it as best as I’m able.
Therefore, this is not strawman.
What you did show, though, is an example of you gaslighting me, congrats.
Anyway, if you do happen to have anything more to say on me, bring it on and I’ll address it – but it won’t mean this wasn’t a bad look on you.
Otherwise go away, I’ll bury you if scum when I get the energy.
You never answered this and you don’t seem to be being pressed on it. Please do. Lol.
About the bolded: What are you saying here, exactly? It sounds like you think that he couldn’t have possibly been wrong on his read of Dork if he read the games in detail?
Is that correct?
Good lord.
Anyone that’s townreading Joe really needs to explain to me why this post isn’t raising more flags.
Regardless of your thoughts on Wake (and I don’t think they could possibly be w/w together at this point), how is this not horribly OMGUSy or massively paranoid and/or reachy?
I don’t see town having this level of paranoia.
Sup!
Right there with you with team-drainage.
I noticed you haven’t really asked me anything of me in you catch-ups whereas your predecessor had a small fixation. Not to be too egocentric, but does that mean anything?
I would like your read on Tom in particular, given your initial interactions this game. Sorry, what is the question? Why did I think Last claiming what he did when he did was bad?
If so, it’s pretty much what Amy said: I don’t think this is info that needed to be in the game at the time, and there was no particular advantage to bringing it up then. Sure it would have looked bad if he brought it up under pressure, but that doesn’t mean it’s beneficial to Town to bring it up early game.
In fact, pretty sure it isn’t: If Last is town (and I’m assuming he is, at least, not scum), I would be surprised if his death wasn’t at least partially related to his claim. At least in a situation where he claims while being run-up, even if he gets exec, there’d be less confusion which is pro-town. And that’s actually not a guarantee on this site – claims can often overturn a lynch, even just for one phase (though presumably he’d still have been the NK so eh).
Anyway, bringing it up when he did was to no benefit, much like Lagoon’s claim of not being targeted.
(Last does to those sort of claims a lot, but he could do them as both alignments and the way he was approaching the game here wasn’t endearing him to me.)
Feel free to ignore this, but under what circumstances would you be willing to give us more info on your target? @Axel I don’t think Trisscar is scum. This post is an example of why: The stream of thought/half-ramble seems too natural and genuine to be fake. What are your thoughts on this?
@anyone Does Jack have a volume tell?
Hm. Is Tubba there due to Wisp reason or do you have more?
Any thoughts on Font's partner?
@TER
Also Tubba's just kind of gone.
You kind of snipped out my JT = SK partner theory. No one else has really stuck out yet.
I voted you on page forty-whatever because I can't time travel.
(I really did like what he did towards Wake and the effort in it.)
I'd like to note you never did answer me about why you see Lagoon as town.
And tom is doing this bizarre thing where he's acting like his case on me is impenetrable and my flip as scum is a done deal, despite him not actually saying anything of substance and acting like my responses are a result of his focus, not an avoidance of them. No one else has commented on that particular aspect of his play towards me so far, so.
As for you, obviously I'm observing you. I hear what you're saying re:#2502. You are voting him, and there was a degree of OMGUS in his actions.
However, this doesn't truly address what I'm saying.
Specifically in that post you go "yes I could have voted you and didn't, you're right, but AHA, you could have as well and didn't, GOTCHA, argument, disabled!!!" which on its own its pretty bad, ngl. What makes it worse is that once again (as I brought up for earlier posts) the quote you bring up is only peripherally related to you (it could apply to a blanket of players, as Rod brought up), and you're making it about you with the egocentric paranoia of scum.
When Wake is acting OMGUSy towards Ter or you, I can at least see a townie with a wounded pride feeling personally attacked that his case that is specifically geared towards a player is being disparaged. Townies can have wounded prides and, yes, bad cases.
Scums are the ones that are more often overtly paranoid for no reason, and that's kind of where you're coming in - Wake is placing too much weight on the "die scum" bit...but he's also not wrong on the strong reaction vs. lack of action.
On the other hand, the more time that passes the more I wonder if this is another ******* t/t wagon and if so, godamnit.
@Joe I'mma go for a run. Be back in 2-3 hours if you still want to talk.
...Last has been dead since Daystart.
How the hell is he first with a 30-post lead on the next highest poster?!
Damn it!
Still want to know more about your read on me, please.
(and I get it. I'm pretty tired too. I think it's because I'm finding it hard to find a solid thread.)
Contrast to Amy - she was, like, explaining things and seemingly trying to help me get up to speed, but didn't really seem to care for my takes on things or directing me anywhere
t om kinda hopped in like he knows me (truthfully, probably not really) and has just been throwing question after question at me
apparently he was just spamming gifs earlier in the game but the way these two have approached relatively the same interactions on my slot have been extremely different
I liked Amy's tone more than t om's but I think ultimately it's more likely someone who chooses to just barrage my slot with questions to try and force me to take stances early is town, and in fact I've been incredibly surprised that he's the only person choosing to do so when I expected to get bombarded immediately upon replacing in
so gth I think he's town
with the obvious caveat that I have not backread any of his posts that weren't gifs or naked votes
And it was just one question which, as said, had already been more or less answered by another player prior to you asking.
I also asked you something.
I agree it's reachy but like that doesn't make Joe scum when I can like completely see where he's coming from every step of the way on Axel and the rest of his posts seem generally agreeable
He has good takes and a thought process that I can see and it's just real
idrc if he's gonna get paranoid over votes when that's not nearly AI as the way he has approached the rest of the game
I've read his iso and I think he is town
Considering their relative activity level in Marbleympics, I sure as hell hope not
That was extremely helpful in the endgame there but he was like 2% of posts in the F4 as town
Getting a noticeably lower amount as scum would just be outright not playing
in the middle of a sea of "don't post guys," pushing the person who claimed non-flipping, and then pushing t om for posting gifs
Like
I thought the LW push was pretty analagous to my push on the D1 Miller claim in MHAFM
But his push on tom is literally a carbon copy of my scumplay in that game
I will link this again, just look at my iso and tell me this isn't the exact same *****
https://forum.mafia451.com/t/mha-mafia-game-thread-game-over/3835
@kpaca if your intent is to try and convince people to actually pressure t om into changing his posting, why not do exactly what Tubba did here and lay out a concise argument for why it's a good idea that people can get behind instead of just yelling about it
It kinda rings hollow when tubba can put forward more actually compelling reasons in one short paragraph than you've managed in like 15 or 20 posts
and like
what scum teamed with t om would so openly copy his gifposting just to throw a yawn at you pushing it
It seems incredibly hard to justify the risk just to, what, antagonize you?
Walk me through what you hope to gain by bullying the rest of the thread on this because I don't buy the "they're likely w/w for this" angle
okay presumably the "and I guess" acknowledges that he's a claimed 3p and therefore not town
but like
two of these reads are new
all three are unexplained, despite being "strong"
and one is on a literal claimed nontown
Is this really the best you can do on your... 70th-ish post?
I just replaced in and already have more/better explained townreads than you do after spending half of day 1 yelling at people
okay this I really don't like
@TerRaine How many closed games you're in actually have Jesters? Have you played a game by osie before?
Like
The OP states "It still appears balanced and enjoyable to reviewers" and Jester is decidedly the opposite of both of those points
I am
And I'm asking the same question but replace "given" with "explained" and "read" with "townread"
ironic lel
/vote kpaca
this has to be intentional right
@kpaca can you walk me through what you see in Terry because you haven't ever actually said it, just stopped people from voting him by saying he's town
I’m not sure how a post about terry being town is a head scratcher because I thought Last was scum for non mechanic related reasons. Care to explain?
For the record lynching Miller day one is never a pro town action b
The yelling worked eventually. I’m posting from an iPad a lot and it’s just easier that way tbh.
Not that this isn’t how ive played mafia since 2009 or anything like that.
I don’t work off of such absolutes as you. Maybe I decide tom isn’t scum. Maybe I decide their both scum. Maybe I decide neither? It’s day one hombre, and once again....even when it looks like I’m working in absolutes; I’m not.
you have reads you explained better.
Just because I actively just not to explain a lot of my reads doesn’t mean they are “bad”. Deal with it I guess.
Yes.
I don’t get it.
With WMU, you've been engaging somewhat and eventually explaining things which is arguably at least similar to your pushes on Wisp and t om, but Jackrito had about the same effort as your townreads behind it - ie none at all
Where are you at on him?
If your initial scumread was entirely predicated on reads and you spent posts upon posts talking about it, why do your townreads (turns out this became a pattern) just get tossed out with no actual provided reasoning?
Almost all of my posts are from my phone so I'm not sure I really agree with that mentality at all
There's a difference between not working in absolutes and pulling things out of your ass and I really think "if tom flips scum I'm looking at you next" is from the latter category
Are scum here normally so brazen as to antagonize town pushing their teammate for doing something by doing that same thing defiantly right back at them?
I find that hard to believe
In that case I'm asking you to please re-explain your townreads in more detail for the guy who just replaced in
I’m waiting with a spring loaded trap!! I need to probably double back on focusing on his day2 posts before I expound, because I might change my mind.
Rain check but if I don’t change my mind I’ll explain?
****in' interaction.
Finally.
Interesting on Amy, I hadn't noticed that myself in the way she was engaging you, but curious to see what she says.
re: Tom; I also am taking note of your conclusions on his approach to you, which are different from mine.
You're correct, he's hit off the gate strong and what pinged me was you noting that the two of you don't have a lot of experience together and him not being able to disprove that (that section felt like a semi-awkward stumble on his part). His bombardment of you, then, was not due to familiarity. The nature of his questions (what do you think of x and y, is hipocrisy scummy, etc.) are blanket questions that I can see town!Tom asking but the way he was approaching it seemed like he was keeping you off-balance with influx rather than figuring you out.
It definitely left me feeling you're not aligned.
I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but the different perceptions here are important.
re: caveat; imo Tom has been off this game, his overt focus on Riddle early D2 was alarming as it was a pointless venue that did not help town. His approach to me has been bizarre and should not be a viable approach in his eyes (and no one can convince me otherwise), and his way of "proving himself right" (I guess) about his read seem more like a foregone conclusion than an attempt to solve me. In general, his solving's not been very deep, mostly surface - admittedly, he could just not be sharing his findings, but I'm having a hard time finding and indication of something deeper.
Except for (1) his towncore, which I can kind of follow...but towncores are not extremely hard when you're scum; (2) his search for font's partner, though he's only looking at font's interactions with other players and not into the player's actions with her, which does add a level of shallowness.
Anyway, not loving him.
fyi, I elaborate more on this on 2512, as it's not the first instance I've noticed that sort of behavior - though presumably you read it in his ISO.
It's not exactly paranoid about being suspected, more like paranoid without ever being (in-thread) suspected and the "desperation" (I don't know if this is the right word) to turn it around on the accuser.
Noted, however.
Also fair point on Jack. I just remember more of him in other games except Marblelympics - @Jack?
Eh, maybe not.
Pretty much what you've said on him has been noted by one or all of us.
D1 I had him as town/townlean (can't be bothered to check) based on his "disturbing obsession" with Tom's read. Kinda feel like scum would have dropped it at one point when most players were telling him to just shut up.
Something else that made me okay leaving him be that Day too was that once Tom had stopped the gimmick and K kept harping on on why, I flat-out asked him two questions to add more validity to his read, fully expecting he won't be able to. His answers were actually reasonable, so at least showed that he was thinking on it on a deeper level and not riding out the vague townread he was getting at the time.
Although I don't remember much of him toDay, so I'll take a look at his ISO.
See bolded letters
A.) it is important to share some of my reads so people can at least get a basic idea of some things I believe, even if they don’t know why I believe them necessarily.
B). Well you’re a better man/woman/non-binary than me I guess.
C.) I mean you’re welcome to believe I’m pulling this out my ass all you want. I’m not and I have a decade of meta that backs this up. Sooooo, *shrug*. I even sorta explained a bit about my play style somewhere day one. Am I Lebron James? No; not as town. But I have sporadic all star performances.
D.). This is you dealing with an absolute to me. Anything could be possible scum wise. Some are brazen. Some are hesitant. Some are bad. Some are good. It’s about getting in the mindset and personality.
E.). Okay, maybe. But first, why? I’m not gonna explain all of them but maybe pick one and I’ll give a sentence or two? I feel like I gave a few sentences on Terry and recently Rhand.
Out of everything he's done, throwing a townread at the slot that would eventually flip town but remaining entirely and completely uninvested in trying to convince anybody else of them being town and then turning around and saying he's just fine shouting about his pet t om read is such a classic scum move to grab credit for their reads without ever actually needing to act on them to save the townies
I also don't understand this 180 he pulled whatsoever because there was literally no progression in between the above post calling him town and the following two
He completely forgot he had been "townreading" the slot and I don't know how nobody else has noticed this
Like this is just opportunism tbh
I think this setup has just made a lot of us lose intrest tbh. I feel that way and just burned the hell out tbh which started during the team game but I hid it by just copying my team's reads. So atm I'm just coasting off shooting a town because it was counter wagon which has got me town read heavy, which is a bit crazy lol. I don't have scum hunting motivation which I should be as a town read for most though so just hoping something clicks soon.
I know you’re not intending to but I don’t need to be lectured on it twice when I stopped. Was I a bit antagonistic? Sure but I think you’re making a much bigger deal out of it than it was and its distracting at this point.
What is it with your questions this game? You never seem to just ask a question and wait for an answer. Every other question has you explaining why your asking it and its leading and weird as hell.
Truth be told I don’t know what I was expecting. I was applying a different kind of pressure to see what came of it. It didn’t lead anywhere and no one else seemed to see issue so I moved on. Your question only has an answer if I’m omniscient and know exactly how every pressure I put out there is going to be responded to.