Would add jack and kj to that list as having ~0 impact.
And technically rod/vaimes/shadow are always on that list because they dont so much play to thir wincons as scum as "try to mimic their towngames" (with varying levels of focus and effectiveness)
I dont think ITF is particularly likely with axel or zds, who are the most impactful of the lowposters along with you and rhand
If he has buddies that have tried to save him, theyve been factually ineffective
Not feeling strongly about this though
Yeah that's all fair. It's probably way too early for that. Kind of disagree with Shadow not playing to his win con but that's neither here nor there.
If anything I'm probably the person who makes the most sense as an ITF buddy now that you've listed like everyone. Really the takeaway though is that this game is listless and utterly lacking consensus outside of ITF and Umami. No great bob.
@Rod In the tom scum world what does that say about the wagons? I'm assuming you'd clear Jack, what does it say about ITF?
And technically rod/vaimes/shadow are always on that list because they dont so much play to thir wincons as scum as "try to mimic their towngames" (with varying levels of focus and effectiveness)
These are the top three on my list, but I haven’t played enough to feel any semblance of strength. GJ and KJ I do feel reasonably good on, but sloth doesn’t fit there.
I have an incredibly strong null read on Tom, does that count?
These are the top three on my list, but I haven’t played enough to feel any semblance of strength. GJ and KJ I do feel reasonably good on, but sloth doesn’t fit there.
I have an incredibly strong null read on Tom, does that count?
How do you have Sloth in your top 3 when he has done nothing. Also what makes GJ and KJ so town especially since most find KJ underwhealming
Have you formatted reads lists like that in the past?
Really, I’ve already given it much less weight than I initially did, I don’t think we /need/ to carry on with this.
Nope! I also spent a couple of games not RVS'ing, when I used to always RVS. What is your point?
It was important enough to knock a townlead into hard scumread territory, so I think I'd like to carry on with it until I understand where you're coming from, or until you die.
Have you formatted reads lists like that in the past?
Really, I’ve already given it much less weight than I initially did, I don’t think we /need/ to carry on with this.
Nope! I also spent a couple of games not RVS'ing, when I used to always RVS. What is your point?
It was important enough to knock a townlead into hard scumread territory, so I think I'd like to carry on with it until I understand where you're coming from, or until you die.
Perhaps the issue herein lies in your misunderstanding in the speed of my list. Townlean is like, just above tubba, and even the bottom of my list is nowhere close to hard scum read territory. Like do you not see me talking about the bottom 2 people on my list and how they could be town/town?
As far as your first point, am I to assume you’re intention is to use that style list going forward/was this an intentional change for you?
So world I’m most afraid of:
Jack/ITF both town, both conceding their own lynches, and because of that we chain lynch them.
And while I would happily lynch either of them, the first person to say “surely they can’t both be town” will get a swift kick.
@people I trust: how do we tell if this is the world we’re in, and do you think anyone looks particularly bad in this world?
I think by talking about chainlynching them, YOU are the first person to suggest they cant both be town. I dont think they look actively w/v by any stretch. Neither of their flips would particularly effect my view on the other. Could even be w/w
But yeah i think v/v has the statistical edge.
That’s quite the creative license you took with my post. My point was that even as the lowest people in my reads, I think t/t isn’t particularly unlikely, and want to avoid running against that. So how do we identify and avoid that is so?
by not chain lynching them as you suggest and continuing to read and think and try to lynch scum each day?
I dont think either of them are like, objectively scummy scummers. I think itf is a lurker lynch with a little fancying up. Jack wagon is me and grape apparently seeing something esoteric and everyone else just throwing shrugs at him.
What reasons are you seeing that would persist through another 2 weeks of them presumably playing the game to show their potential towniness?
Why did this thought come up at all? Theyre ostensibly your top two scumreads
Tldr
Its fine to worry v/v wagons.
But i dont think it makes sense to rn unless youre already thinking about today ending in a mislynch and looking for the next one
Tom, you’ve been in plenty of games where that exact scenario has happened and specifically been driven by townies. I’ve watched it happen as a host and it’s painful. Tell me analytically, does it make sense for scum me to posture in the exact way you’re currently suggesting I am? And don’t give me the “this is all wine” answer. This is more of a general rant than directed at you, but so much of what we do and say that is called wifom is not actually wifom.
Perhaps the issue herein lies in your misunderstanding in the speed of my list. Townlean is like, just above tubba, and even the bottom of my list is nowhere close to hard scum read territory. Like do you not see me talking about the bottom 2 people on my list and how they could be town/town?
As far as your first point, am I to assume you’re intention is to use that style list going forward/was this an intentional change for you?
No, I don't, because the bottom two people on your list are me and ITF. The bottom of a list of all the players in the game is usually scum territory, so you can understand why I'd make that kind of assumption.
Of course not. Do you see me foregoing all of my RVS votes? I know that people make [drastic, permanent] changes in their playstyle, but this isn't even anything remotely alignment indicative so I don't understand how it [originally] affected your read of me so strongly. I have to assume it's complete bull*****.
Tom, you’ve been in plenty of games where that exact scenario has happened and specifically been driven by townies. I’ve watched it happen as a host and it’s painful. Tell me analytically, does it make sense for scum me to posture in the exact way you’re currently suggesting I am? And don’t give me the “this is all wine” answer. This is more of a general rant than directed at you, but so much of what we do and say that is called wifom is not actually wifom.
As I've just said i think the biggest goal of your scumgame is looking towny. Certainly two townies looking w/v and being competing wagons can lead down that bad path. But barring that, which is not happening here, youre just saying "what if both of these scummy people arent scum?"
Its a thing town says in a situation. But since we're not in that situation, and theyre your top two scumreads if youve moved vaimes up. So i think youre just saying it to say it
I mean I don't think we mindlessly lynch people regardless of the outcome of this lynch?
like ya, the possibility is there, but what are you doing, if not but just throwing in some fear-mongering?
I really don't want to do the thing, where we get stuck between CFDing and limbo
I also don't want to get stuck in a world, where I am constantly trying to figure out ITF's alignment instead of just having them dead
*cough* *kcc* *cough*
I'm really baffled by this idea of people hanging out in limbo. People get easier to solve as the game moves on. If your read isn't evolving at least a little then it means they aren't playing or you're in a tunnel. People turn their slots around wildly in mafia. It's kind of the point of the game. So I'm very much not a fan of killing someone just because you don't want to have to solve them later.
If you have a good PoE kill in that, otherwise kill scummy people. Don't kill someone because you're worried about them being a question mark.
Anyway @Vaimes you said you don't see the case on Jack is that a town read or just absence of a scum read?
@Shadow I was curious if you were more confident on the KJ or ITF read. What's making KJ town to you? I have very little strong feelings about him.
I was never under the impression that shadow could read me well enough to land on a strong townread given such comparatively little content from me. I'll admit I usually have done more by now (that'll change on my day off in a day, promise) so for now poking around will have to suffice. However, as I was saying, Shadow's strong townread of me (and probably also Sloth) is... a thing, potentially.
@Shadow: Let's talk about Jack. so, Jack was under some pressure, finishes rereading, and made a reads list of all players. How do you feel those posts are, in a "response to pressure" context? Do you think he made those posts because he was under pressure? Do you think he's scum for that?
What do you think of the hate on him? Do you think the scumreads on him are warrented, independent of your own read?
While you're at it, what do you think of the ITF wagon/his response to it?
Are they counterwagons?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ: your post count is way lower than usual, which points to more caution and that pinged me.
But the way you’re interested why I’m scumreading you sounds like town!you.
Not that I know scum!you, so meh.
I don’t like how you’re spinning this into a scum read on me though.
It's a crazy shallow read, that's why I'm scumreading it. My post count is lower than normal (which I admit) but I work in grocery (which I've told you before) and we're the only stores really open. And anytime anyone goes out for some reason, the rest of us work overtime. But even if you forgot all that, it's still fallacious. Playing different =/= scum. Especially since I said last game (and reminded people this game) that I'm trying to have a less active playstyle so I don't have to have such a high post count/effort value to play the game.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm personally not a huge fan of ITF's response to the pressure/his wagon. I plan to keep voting him. Will reread on Wed though to consolidate my reads on everyone though
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
“How long would it take for me to get back to Sursamen?”
“A moment, please,” Batra said, falling silent for a moment while, she imagined, he consulted the course schedules of whole networks of distant ships. She had time to wonder why he hadn’t already memorised or at least accessed this information, and whether this possibly deliberate hesitation implied a criticism of her for even thinking of abandoning her post here.
“Between one hundred and thirty and one hundred and sixty days,” Batra told her. “The uncertainty comes from the changeover to Morthanveld space.”
“Would I be excused here?” she asked Batra.
“Djan Seriy,” the metallic bush said, and for the first time something other than its pretended face moved, its sides expanding in a gesture that looked a lot like a human spreading their arms, “you are a free agent. Nothing keeps you here but you. You may go at any time.”
...
“I’m sorry. I think I have to go,” she told him.
“Think, Djan Seriy?” Batra asked, sounding sad.
“I am going,” she said. “I must.”
“I see.” Now the man who looked like a fuzzy little bush sounded apologetic. “There will be a cost, Djan Seriy.”
I really don't want to do the thing, where we get stuck between CFDing and limbo
I also don't want to get stuck in a world, where I am constantly trying to figure out ITF's alignment instead of just having them dead
*cough* *kcc* *cough*
i know when eod is this time
Ftr
Im not changing timezones in the middle of the day phase
I'm really baffled by this idea of people hanging out in limbo. People get easier to solve as the game moves on. If your read isn't evolving at least a little then it means they aren't playing or you're in a tunnel. People turn their slots around wildly in mafia. It's kind of the point of the game. So I'm very much not a fan of killing someone just because you don't want to have to solve them later.
If you have a good PoE kill in that, otherwise kill scummy people. Don't kill someone because you're worried about them being a question mark.
yeah this
And im not even convinced itf is "scummy people"
At least not commensurate with the unopposed wagon on him
Overall:
Would be happy to lynch jack or shadow
Maybe tubba/sloth
Would vote anyone other than umami/rhand/grape over a no lynch i suppose but not feel great about it
@Tom: In scum!Shadow world, how many of KJ/GJ/Sloth are scum with him? Does shadow Rule of Three there or does he knowingly subvert that?
shadow does like to intentionally subvert that sort of thing but i dont think rule of 3 applies to townreads too?
Basically though shadows reads are so consensus that if hes a wolf his buddies are just <wherever they are in thread consensus> and the only buddy i actively doubt is sloth (both because thats his most outside consensus read and because i think when he answered his 3 strongest reads he just looked at his own readslist and forgot he said he was townreading sloth for the lulz which if he did with a buddy hed remember)
ITF kind of has that just so level of foreignness where I can't figure out if his weirdness is meta differences, awkwardness fitting into a group that all knows each other, or scumminess. He's very much a shrug to me right now.
The wagon makes me want to give him the benefit of the doubt but it's also not that strong a thing. If he is scum it's entirely plausible his buddies didn't want to tangle with town!ZDS and decided to just hope something happened.
@KJ: your post count is way lower than usual, which points to more caution and that pinged me.
But the way you’re interested why I’m scumreading you sounds like town!you.
Not that I know scum!you, so meh.
I don’t like how you’re spinning this into a scum read on me though.
It's a crazy shallow read, that's why I'm scumreading it. My post count is lower than normal (which I admit) but I work in grocery (which I've told you before) and we're the only stores really open. And anytime anyone goes out for some reason, the rest of us work overtime. But even if you forgot all that, it's still fallacious. Playing different =/= scum. Especially since I said last game (and reminded people this game) that I'm trying to have a less active playstyle so I don't have to have such a high post count/effort value to play the game.
You’re overreacting to the read. All I said is “might be scum”.
I'll make a real post tonight; don't have time right now.
Unsure what to think of JTM's claim. I don't like how he keeps trying to overemphasis the fact that he's town, and his role sounds ridiculous. But I'm also very much reminded of Wolf_With_A_Bass and Vezok in Basic 8 and 21 (respectively), where they just acted crazy and attracted a lot of attention to themselves. My gut says that he's town, but I want to look over his posts again.
Also, we should probably figure out what we're doing with the CC abilities.
Quote from MandersHex »
Did I say I thought I did?
Part my reasoning before involved PuddleJumper being new, so I was amending my read there to be a little less sure.
I was saying it in the first place because you said something along the lines of "Why should we trust you?" to Puddle, which implies that you thought that Puddle and JTM could both be scum. I was trying to explain why I don't think that's the case.
Quote from DesCoures »
I'm pretty certain I don't like your reasoning here. Especially given the second paragraph, which suggests that your entire 'read' of jtm as town behaving badly is based on Puddlejumper's 'read' of him as town behaving badly. Which then begs the question - why do you have such confidence in Puddlejumper's towniness?
My read isn't just based off Puddle's read. When Puddle pointed it out, I could see what he meant, based just on JTM's actions in this thread.
As sorta explained in the other post you quoted, Puddle doesn't necessarily have to be town for me to agree with him. I have gotten a townie vibe from Puddle anyway, but I agree with his reasoning; Puddle's alignment doesn't matter for my read on JTM.
Quote from DesCoures »
I disagree with them being 'good reasons', pending my own inspection of that particular game thread. And somehow, I don't think it can have escaped your notice that this entire two paragraphs has been nothing but a spool of WIFOM, snarled and tangled like a cat's knitting.
Time to re-read your posts, I think.
It's not WIFOM. It's my read on them. Yeah, Puddle could be acting contrary to confuse people... but you could say that about just about anything in mafia.
Quote from MandersHex »
I looked it up. Commuter makes himself untargetable. Hider makes himself unNKable. Hider hides behind someone else, and commuter just makes himself so.
Where I've seen Commuters, they make themselves un-NKable (and sometimes untargetable, depends on the mod), but they can't do it on consecutive nights.
Up to about post #640, still going through the thread, and haven't read back on JTM yet. From what I'm seeing though, I'm pretty sure I don't want him lynched.
I haven't read back on IBug yet, but I like Sir Mu's posts so far.
[QUOTE=Deathjoey;/comments/10741710]Hmm?
I didn't vote JtM because I didn't want to, or had enough reason to.
*takes vote
You can count on me, I'll keep this safe for you ;]
I really don't like how you're lightly on the JTM wagon, but insisting that you don't feel like you need to vote him.
Not sure what to think of how nonchalant you are with having a second vote put on you though. I still like my vote, but it's a slightly odd reaction for scum.
Your first post of the game shows an absolute agreement to the mass claim, do you disagree?
Then, your next post, you changed your mind. While this could very easily be for the reason that you provided, that doesn't explain why you dodged the question.
How did you dodge it? Well, I reposted it to you twice and you ignored it. These are not the actions of someone who doesn't want to answer it because of role related reasons. Such a person would have said so the first time. These are the actions of someone who doesn't want to answer it because he has no valid answer to provide. Someone who's hoping he/she won't be asked again.
Granted, I know you knew you wouldn't quit being asked since it's me asking, but still. I've dropped the ball before.
THEN, you come back accusing me of fishing. Classic scum DV deflection.
Wuffles's frustration is definitely genuine. That could be just frustration at being accused for (as he sees it) poor reasons (regardless of his actual alignment), but it seems like more than that to me. He's indignant at how he's being misunderstood, which typically comes from town.
I don't like how apologetic he's become, or how he attacked people voting him though.
Not sure if this is a good wagon right now. Will probably take a look back a little later tonight.
~
[QUOTE=BlueElectric;/comments/10810923]
Yes, I've been around the Mafia block a few times in my days, Mister Squeege. I feigned inexperience to bait any members of the mafia who were looking to attack an easy target into pouncing, and lo and behold, Mister Snake fell for it like a textbook example! ^^ Have you played in any other games with Mister Snake or have you just read along? Can you explain to me how Mister Snake's town game differs from his mafia game? Or are you just chumming it up with him because he called you town?
Somebody mentioned that your trap wasn't really a great idea, and I agree. IMO it was more likely to cause confusion than anything else. But regardless, ZDS actually had a good point that townies are more likely to makes traps like that.
I've played one game with ZDS (LotRII mafia, I was town he was scum, link's in my sig) and read through a few others (can't remember specifically which ones). I'm not claiming to be a meta expert on ZDS; you asked whether we thought he was town or scum, and I think he's slightly leaning town.
He writes for channelfireball. I read a lot of games, and Magic articles. That was my out-of-game "shoutout", since I recognized the LSV nickname, but didn't know the owner was the real Levine right away.
I was more expressing confusion at you doing the same thing I originally voted Tan over (expressly being done with RVS). I mean, it's not scummy since I had already said I didn't like it, it was just weird.
That's cool that Raging Levine writes articles and stuff though; I've been out of the mtg loop for a while.
What mod in their right mind is going to reveal that specific part of his set-up? So why ask?
The reason is I question the motive behind the question being asked. Asking it "in-thread" actually distances the player from the scum team in some people's minds. The assumption that comes is that the player asking the question doesn't know the answer and therefore must be town. I strongly dislike this assumtion.
Ah, ok, makes sense. I still feel like it was worth it just in case Jobie did reveal it though.
I'm liking mine too.
Squeege just admitted to throwing stuff at a wall to see if it sticks.
lynch now please.
I thought I made it obvious that the "yep" was just me being contentious, but I guess not.
I explained my position in my second post. What Tan did was a weak tell. I wasn't even sure if it was worth ending the RVS for it, but ZDS already basically ended RVS with his vote for BE, and as I said, I didn't want to vote for BE.
Since then, I haven't seen anything that makes me want to remove my vote, so it's staying there.
@Squeege: You and Yanni are town because each of you is acting on his own, and scumhunting right away without testing the waters first. It's as if you imposed on yourself the imperial duty of finding scum. It's hard to find townier mind states (and this being the beginning of the game makes this mind state that much more townie).
Pinkfloyd - His first real post gave me very good vibes; his reads seemed genuine.
Artifice - From following 300 mafia and Enders, Artifice often has sort of a fake tone when he's scum. I'm not seeing that at all this game, so I'm pretty sure he's town.
ZDS - He's been scumhunting and asking good questions, which makes me think he's town. ZDS is crafty as scum, so I'm still watching him a bit, but I don't have any reason to think he's scum right now.
BlueElectric - I'll be honest, I've been going back and forth with Blue. But she looks like she is really trying to scumhunt, more than I would expect of a (essentially) new player if she were scum.
(I don't know why, but I have trouble reading Blue's posts. Like, I have to read them a few times before I really get what she's saying)
Raging Levine - The main thing I recall him doing was attack Wuffles for the "Chainsaw Defense" thing. The attack was poor, but I didn't get a very scummy vibe from it; Raging seemed to believe what he was saying. Not sure what to think of him yet.
Wuffles - His frustration was genuine, and it seemed like town frustration, but I'm not sure enough to write him off as town.
Anak - Haven't seen enough to get a good read on him yet.
Atlseal - I'm not sure if I buy his reasoning for originally voting Wuffles. It just seems like a high risk from a townie's perspective. Nothing else has struck me one way or the other about Atlseal though.
@Atlseal: There were some valid reasons to vote for Wuffles when you joined his wagon. What would you have done if someone had joined the wagon with logical reasoning, forced Wuffles to claim, and Wuffles had claimed something that's likely town (doc, cop, judge, etc.)?
Tanarin - I need to take a second look him, but I haven't gotten much of a feeling one way or the other from his recent posts. I stand by my earlier points against him though, especially his odd calling out of Yanni.
Yanni - I can see town Yanni going after me in the way he did, although it was a bit strange how easily he let go. His vote on Blue felt bad though; saying that your voting her for making a bad case is pretty vague, and it came at somewhat of an opportunistic time.
Proph - Most of it's already been said, but FoSing two player on opposite sides of an argument, and not taking strong stances unless asked to are the big ones. However, I want to give him a bit more time to catch up and respond before putting him to claim range; the last two votes came a little fast. too late
@Proph: Doing a PBPA of everyone in the game is not a good idea. It would take too much time to be feasible, and personally I've found that I get the wrong answer more often than not when I do PBPAs (could just be me though). I'd much rather you summarize your feeling/reads than attempt to do a PBPA on everyone.
~
[QUOTE=BlueElectric;/comments/10811139]
So you maintained your vote on Mister Tan due to RVS actions and then found more reasons to continue to vote him. Is that correct?
Shadow's "responses to things" and questions are entirely self-serving and pointless (for scumhunting). It's fake content 101 and it's extremely scummy.
He lists Sloth among his top 3 strongest reads, but in #806 he lists that read as le funny meme joke. What the heck.
I don't want to actively pursue him because ITF still exists and my opinion hasn't changed, but he tops the list of players I want to look at next.
--
ITF (so you were Squeege before?) plays like he's waiting to die. The lack of vote (and lousy excuse for it) screams of scum not wanting to leave too much info. I mean:
— If he is town, there is no excuse for not at least leaving a trace of where his mind is at;
— If he is scum and Jack is scum, a kamikaze attack would be a great way to clear a buddy;
— If he is scum and Jack is town, he doesn't have many options at this point besides doing exactly what he is doing.
This is making me paranoid that Jack's town as well. I want to be doubly sure Jack is scum before I push a wagon on him, need to reread the parts in Prison that made me gut-town there.
Yeah right. Go on, push that wagon. Prove me wrong. I dare you.
If notes were based on Wagon does that mean you had none before
ITF, did you only take "notes" because I directly asked you for opinions on your wagon? If not why does it seem that way so much?
(If yes I don't particularly care.)
--
IIRC Jack spread his read organically as he played along in Prison, not in the form of a big re-read. I'm working from memory here because I don't see a point in checking since I don't see that difference as significant if it does exist. The meta part of the Jack case (which is not the entire case) is like accusing him of not playing or "feeling" the exact same way two games in a row. If that was scummy tom would be spearheading his own wagon.
For what it's worth, last game town-Jackrito had this to say about his scum meta:
Quote from Jackrito in neighbour chat »
My scum style is more calculated liking to control the narrative but not create it. Normally done by some high risk plan that is not needed. Meanwhile my town style is more of a support role I struggle to start the push on someone unless they is evidence to back it up.
The town play I played with Rod recently is a bad example since a scum forced me to be proactive
I didn't have an issue with Tubba until 919. What is all that fence-sitting for? And it's supposed to show him "meshing" with Rod?
Rodemy, any thoughts on that post?
--
Johnny, why is Sloth in your bottom four?
--
tom, you are the only one playing for points, and the only one who thinks/says I'm painting you as scum. I'm not even scumreading you for expletive's sake. I am trusting you less and less as this discussion goes on out of sheer annoyance, but even that is not a scumread. Get your moustache out of your ass.
Regarding shadow, do you think his stance on Vaimes is "consensus"? What do you think of their discussion?
Regarding ITF/Squeege's meta, the quotes inside your spoilers got messed up. Can you walk us through them?
Right now the current me does not see in the current ITF what the past me saw in the past him (the self-imposed imperial duty to find scum).
#446
You poke at Axel for his vote on Grape, it pinged me as well, but I filed it away under still early. It’s a memey vote but scum could hide behind it.
#491, #554, #598
My knee jerk reaction was eeew because it looked like you were trying sprinkle some dirt around, but the logic knot is something I could see myself digging into.
You weren’t trying to sprinkle dirt around but trying to clean it up if that makes sense.
I pick at things like this in my mind, and should vocalize it more so this clump is the main thing speaking to me that points to your towniness.
#710
I’d actually like you to touch on this a little more, what made you change your mind on thinking ITF wasn’t too bad to wanting to vote there? You also about face on Axel and I’m not sure I understand how you get there. You explain in a tactical sense why, (i.e. Axel is an unlikely lynch, Axel read is informed by an ITF flip) but kind of gloss over your reasoning for reevaluating him.
thanks.
My axel 180 was his read in ITF. I guess that could be one hell of a bus (is that what you are implying in RodWorldVision?).
like, this early on, with what explanation to you expect?
I thought axel was scum.
axel posts a mighty fine case on ITF
I don’t think axel is scum.
the ITF flip will help solidify that read. I will, in my own mine, see the possibility of a bus, but right now that wouldn’t help us, would it?
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I really wanna know what you expect this early in the game, tubba. Also, too early and filed away? How so. If something pings you, go for it. It’s how we uncover scum.
My question is why are you questioning my 180 on axel when my scumread was based off “too early to tell” kind of things, yet you are still understanding where I am coming from.
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Champs rule. It's more from a lack of finding wolf reads. I've talked about the three or so people holding back ad nauseum, so it's just trying to figure out other stuff.
I don't care for Shadows posts, but he is also been playing super defensively, so I am giving him a slight pass.
My middle is like a tornado right now, not going to lie. My theoretical wolf team right now is ITF/Tubba/ one of tom/KJ/Axel and one of Shadow/Sloth, despite the ordering. The first two I am actively wolf reading, although I like Tubba's back and forth with Rodemy.
I could be sold on Jack, but I really don't think he is wolfier than ITF, and would rather see him and Shadow dig tomorrow. That trio or people just keeps bouncing around. Right now of those three, I think I like KJ the least (yes yes, I know my list). Mostly because of the three, KJ is the one I have to keep remembering is in the game. In Prison, I think Vaimes stayed alive as long as he did as a wolf was because he felt slippery (no wolf posts, nothing really except that he wasn't a force this game/didn't take hard stances). I feel KJ is falling into the same patterns. Axel has me really mixed, and tom has just been underwhelming, but I think he will post more later, so their is more rope if he is a wolf.
Rhand had a slight post that pinged me if KJ does end up flipping wolf, but I am not ready to chain that hard. Going to see if I can find it when I stopped getting *****ed at via email.
@Vaimes: I don’t think this is productive anymore. The bottom of my list is not “I think these people are scum” it’s “I don’t have a decent reason to think they are town”. I don’t know how else to say it. Additionally, I specifically said I moved you up some after sleeping on my reads, so no, you’re not in my bottom two.
@Jack: what exactly would have changed with my read of Sloth? He hadn’t posted between those two points iirc?
@Tom: Mimicking my town game is really not what my scum game is about. Typically scum mimicking their town game implies a preference for town. It might be more accurate to say that my scum game wants to do bad and look good for it, and my town game wants to get things right and doesn’t actually care how it looks (except notably that sometimes I do things as town to better my eventual scum game, but that’s not relevant here).
As far as the actual subject we’re discussing, I very much wanted to get it on the table early and get people to examine what is going on, because I don’t have a better option right now, but I don’t like how there’s not been any other real wagons, I don’t like how there isn’t anyone who seems to think either ITF or Jack is strong town (correct me if I’m wrong).
I guess, what I’m saying isn’t “what if these two scummy people aren’t scum” so much as “What if these two people that aren’t townie are town?” Which maybe you don’t think is different, but to me it is, and is why I brought it up.
@Grape: Even having only really played this game for a couple days, my town reads are almost always stronger than my scum reads. Unless something really gets me going. As far as KJ, I think he’s playing with a level self awareness about his posting that looks very much like low level trying to avoid a repeat of Prison. On top of that, he has bounced around in a bunch of different directions, showing nuanced curiosity towards more things than I think he could fake.
@KJ: I don’t recall enough about what you’re asking about Jack to have a useful dialogue. I think saying his a counter wagon is not true, one has to be a wagon in order to be a counter wagon. As far as people scum reading him, I haven’t found him townie, so scum reads on him seem fine. Jack is odd to me because I feel like he reads very monotone to me, like the opposite of Last or Rod, both being incredibly emotive.
I dislike his response about conceding himself as a good lynch, but that’s playstyle and not alignment.
***********
I think I need to note this because it’s useful info I’ve found about myself.
If I have to catch up in a game more than a couple pages over a weekend or holiday, I have a very difficult time of it. This game may be almost 2 weeks going, but to me it’s been about a weekend that is crammed full. My reads haven’t had time to simmer, I don’t feel strongly about things yet. It’s why I don’t like replacing into games.
It’s my own fault here, I know. This is just me making an effort to convey my mindset so that I don’t seem like I just don’t care, because I do.
Hmm not sure what happened with the itf quotes. Some tag somewhere
Anyway all i did was click on his profile and click to the last couple pages of his posts. Those are the two first games (afaict its his second account because people already know him in his first game)
I didnt hard compare him to here i was just finding some indicative quotes then figuring out what alignment he was in both games
I can say the oldest game on this account (the one where he was mafia) looks more like him this game. But he also got replaced out of that game so it may just be analogous in terms of time
But i still come away from looking at 2011 ITF feeling a little worse about him here
I’ll have a look at Winterfell where he was mafia with me.
Heh that was very similar. If Last / ZDS are town and Shadow mafia, then ITF is a mimic of Winterfell.
He spent the beginning of the game voting his scumbuddy (Shadow here?) and pushing that until the claim saved the buddy and defended the townies under pressure (here Last / ZDS).
Given I’m also not too fond of Shadow (this game, you), I like the ITF lynch.
I thought tom was going to argue ITF was playing to his town meta (because of his previous stance on him). He had me worried.
Rhand, ITF isn't voting shadow nor anyone else. If he ends up voting anyone it will most likely be Jack. Moreover shadow is in no danger of getting lynched at the moment. I don't understand your comparison. :risedeyebrow:
I think I need to note this because it’s useful info I’ve found about myself.
If I have to catch up in a game more than a couple pages over a weekend or holiday, I have a very difficult time of it. This game may be almost 2 weeks going, but to me it’s been about a weekend that is crammed full. My reads haven’t had time to simmer, I don’t feel strongly about things yet. It’s why I don’t like replacing into games.
It’s my own fault here, I know. This is just me making an effort to convey my mindset so that I don’t seem like I just don’t care, because I do.
I had the same issue in your game until I decided to stop worrying about catching up and having coherent reads. You should try it. It will free you a lot of brainspace.
Remember you are being judged for the posts you make. Not for whether you are caught up or whether you feel strongly about anything. Most players don't feel strongly about many things right now.
so my initial response was Rhand making good assessments. But going to another game and reading it and basing behavior off of that isn’t something one can do easily. That assessment took way to quick and the amount of info grabbed from that doesn’t feel like he really did that.
I’m curious to how you gathered that info in 13 minutes.
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Yeah that's all fair. It's probably way too early for that. Kind of disagree with Shadow not playing to his win con but that's neither here nor there.
If anything I'm probably the person who makes the most sense as an ITF buddy now that you've listed like everyone. Really the takeaway though is that this game is listless and utterly lacking consensus outside of ITF and Umami. No great bob.
@Rod In the tom scum world what does that say about the wagons? I'm assuming you'd clear Jack, what does it say about ITF?
Really, I’ve already given it much less weight than I initially did, I don’t think we /need/ to carry on with this.
Sloth
Killjoy
These are the top three on my list, but I haven’t played enough to feel any semblance of strength. GJ and KJ I do feel reasonably good on, but sloth doesn’t fit there.
I have an incredibly strong null read on Tom, does that count?
How do you have Sloth in your top 3 when he has done nothing. Also what makes GJ and KJ so town especially since most find KJ underwhealming
It was important enough to knock a townlead into hard scumread territory, so I think I'd like to carry on with it until I understand where you're coming from, or until you die.
As far as your first point, am I to assume you’re intention is to use that style list going forward/was this an intentional change for you?
I dont think either of them are like, objectively scummy scummers. I think itf is a lurker lynch with a little fancying up. Jack wagon is me and grape apparently seeing something esoteric and everyone else just throwing shrugs at him.
What reasons are you seeing that would persist through another 2 weeks of them presumably playing the game to show their potential towniness?
Why did this thought come up at all? Theyre ostensibly your top two scumreads
Tldr
Its fine to worry v/v wagons.
But i dont think it makes sense to rn unless youre already thinking about today ending in a mislynch and looking for the next one
vote shadow
For the other 2, I don’t have a great answer for you, I liked them both as I was reading. GJ also cares in a townie way.
Of course not. Do you see me foregoing all of my RVS votes? I know that people make [drastic, permanent] changes in their playstyle, but this isn't even anything remotely alignment indicative so I don't understand how it [originally] affected your read of me so strongly. I have to assume it's complete bull*****.
I did but thought you may of had a reason by now since some time passed since that.
Its a thing town says in a situation. But since we're not in that situation, and theyre your top two scumreads if youve moved vaimes up. So i think youre just saying it to say it
Convince me otherwise
like ya, the possibility is there, but what are you doing, if not but just throwing in some fear-mongering?
These were one after another
I also don't want to get stuck in a world, where I am constantly trying to figure out ITF's alignment instead of just having them dead
*cough* *kcc* *cough*
I just don't want to get stuck in a bad transition
tom, you can bus shadow toMorrow.
If you have a good PoE kill in that, otherwise kill scummy people. Don't kill someone because you're worried about them being a question mark.
Anyway @Vaimes you said you don't see the case on Jack is that a town read or just absence of a scum read?
@Shadow I was curious if you were more confident on the KJ or ITF read. What's making KJ town to you? I have very little strong feelings about him.
@Shadow: Let's talk about Jack. so, Jack was under some pressure, finishes rereading, and made a reads list of all players. How do you feel those posts are, in a "response to pressure" context? Do you think he made those posts because he was under pressure? Do you think he's scum for that?
What do you think of the hate on him? Do you think the scumreads on him are warrented, independent of your own read?
While you're at it, what do you think of the ITF wagon/his response to it?
Are they counterwagons?
“A moment, please,” Batra said, falling silent for a moment while, she imagined, he consulted the course schedules of whole networks of distant ships. She had time to wonder why he hadn’t already memorised or at least accessed this information, and whether this possibly deliberate hesitation implied a criticism of her for even thinking of abandoning her post here.
“Between one hundred and thirty and one hundred and sixty days,” Batra told her. “The uncertainty comes from the changeover to Morthanveld space.”
“Would I be excused here?” she asked Batra.
“Djan Seriy,” the metallic bush said, and for the first time something other than its pretended face moved, its sides expanding in a gesture that looked a lot like a human spreading their arms, “you are a free agent. Nothing keeps you here but you. You may go at any time.”
...
“I’m sorry. I think I have to go,” she told him.
“Think, Djan Seriy?” Batra asked, sounding sad.
“I am going,” she said. “I must.”
“I see.” Now the man who looked like a fuzzy little bush sounded apologetic. “There will be a cost, Djan Seriy.”
“I know.”
Umami - 1 (Jackrito)
Lastwhisper - 1 (Tubba Fett)
Tubba Fett - 1 (Umami)
Jackrito - 1 (Grapefruit21)
tomsloger - 1 (Rodemy)
shadowlancerx - 1 (tomsloger)
Not Voting - 3 (Slothful, ITF, Axelrod)
With 16 alive, it takes 9 to achieve a majority. Day 1 ends at 11:59:59 PM EDT on 22 April 2020 (less than 48 hours from this post).
Vote Count 1.1
Vote Count 1.2
Vote Count 1.3
Vote Count 1.4
Vote Count 1.5
Vote Count 1.6
Vote Count 1.7
Vote Count 1.8
If your vote is uncounted and I didn't say why, please PM me or DM me on Discord so I can investigate.
Ftr
Im not changing timezones in the middle of the day phase
And im not even convinced itf is "scummy people"
At least not commensurate with the unopposed wagon on him
Overall:
Would be happy to lynch jack or shadow
Maybe tubba/sloth
Would vote anyone other than umami/rhand/grape over a no lynch i suppose but not feel great about it
Also if shadow is scum jack/itf are usually v/v
Basically though shadows reads are so consensus that if hes a wolf his buddies are just <wherever they are in thread consensus> and the only buddy i actively doubt is sloth (both because thats his most outside consensus read and because i think when he answered his 3 strongest reads he just looked at his own readslist and forgot he said he was townreading sloth for the lulz which if he did with a buddy hed remember)
The wagon makes me want to give him the benefit of the doubt but it's also not that strong a thing. If he is scum it's entirely plausible his buddies didn't want to tangle with town!ZDS and decided to just hope something happened.
You’re overreacting to the read. All I said is “might be scum”.
Scum itf:
I really don't like how you're lightly on the JTM wagon, but insisting that you don't feel like you need to vote him.
Not sure what to think of how nonchalant you are with having a second vote put on you though. I still like my vote, but it's a slightly odd reaction for scum.
Somebody mentioned that your trap wasn't really a great idea, and I agree. IMO it was more likely to cause confusion than anything else. But regardless, ZDS actually had a good point that townies are more likely to makes traps like that.
I've played one game with ZDS (LotRII mafia, I was town he was scum, link's in my sig) and read through a few others (can't remember specifically which ones). I'm not claiming to be a meta expert on ZDS; you asked whether we thought he was town or scum, and I think he's slightly leaning town.
I was more expressing confusion at you doing the same thing I originally voted Tan over (expressly being done with RVS). I mean, it's not scummy since I had already said I didn't like it, it was just weird.
That's cool that Raging Levine writes articles and stuff though; I've been out of the mtg loop for a while.
Ah, ok, makes sense. I still feel like it was worth it just in case Jobie did reveal it though.
I thought I made it obvious that the "yep" was just me being contentious, but I guess not.
I explained my position in my second post. What Tan did was a weak tell. I wasn't even sure if it was worth ending the RVS for it, but ZDS already basically ended RVS with his vote for BE, and as I said, I didn't want to vote for BE.
Since then, I haven't seen anything that makes me want to remove my vote, so it's staying there.
Shadow's "responses to things" and questions are entirely self-serving and pointless (for scumhunting). It's fake content 101 and it's extremely scummy.
He lists Sloth among his top 3 strongest reads, but in #806 he lists that read as le funny meme joke. What the heck.
I don't want to actively pursue him because ITF still exists and my opinion hasn't changed, but he tops the list of players I want to look at next.
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ITF (so you were Squeege before?) plays like he's waiting to die. The lack of vote (and lousy excuse for it) screams of scum not wanting to leave too much info. I mean:
— If he is town, there is no excuse for not at least leaving a trace of where his mind is at;
— If he is scum and Jack is scum, a kamikaze attack would be a great way to clear a buddy;
— If he is scum and Jack is town, he doesn't have many options at this point besides doing exactly what he is doing.
So I'm especially doubtful when he says:
Yeah right. Go on, push that wagon. Prove me wrong. I dare you.
ITF, did you only take "notes" because I directly asked you for opinions on your wagon? If not why does it seem that way so much?
(If yes I don't particularly care.)
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IIRC Jack spread his read organically as he played along in Prison, not in the form of a big re-read. I'm working from memory here because I don't see a point in checking since I don't see that difference as significant if it does exist. The meta part of the Jack case (which is not the entire case) is like accusing him of not playing or "feeling" the exact same way two games in a row. If that was scummy tom would be spearheading his own wagon.
For what it's worth, last game town-Jackrito had this to say about his scum meta:
(link for those who can access the discord chats)
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I didn't have an issue with Tubba until 919. What is all that fence-sitting for? And it's supposed to show him "meshing" with Rod?
Rodemy, any thoughts on that post?
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Johnny, why is Sloth in your bottom four?
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tom, you are the only one playing for points, and the only one who thinks/says I'm painting you as scum. I'm not even scumreading you for expletive's sake. I am trusting you less and less as this discussion goes on out of sheer annoyance, but even that is not a scumread. Get your moustache out of your ass.
Regarding shadow, do you think his stance on Vaimes is "consensus"? What do you think of their discussion?
Regarding ITF/Squeege's meta, the quotes inside your spoilers got messed up. Can you walk us through them?
Right now the current me does not see in the current ITF what the past me saw in the past him (the self-imposed imperial duty to find scum).
thanks.
My axel 180 was his read in ITF. I guess that could be one hell of a bus (is that what you are implying in RodWorldVision?).
like, this early on, with what explanation to you expect?
I thought axel was scum.
axel posts a mighty fine case on ITF
I don’t think axel is scum.
the ITF flip will help solidify that read. I will, in my own mine, see the possibility of a bus, but right now that wouldn’t help us, would it?
My question is why are you questioning my 180 on axel when my scumread was based off “too early to tell” kind of things, yet you are still understanding where I am coming from.
Champs rule. It's more from a lack of finding wolf reads. I've talked about the three or so people holding back ad nauseum, so it's just trying to figure out other stuff.
I don't care for Shadows posts, but he is also been playing super defensively, so I am giving him a slight pass.
My middle is like a tornado right now, not going to lie. My theoretical wolf team right now is ITF/Tubba/ one of tom/KJ/Axel and one of Shadow/Sloth, despite the ordering. The first two I am actively wolf reading, although I like Tubba's back and forth with Rodemy.
I could be sold on Jack, but I really don't think he is wolfier than ITF, and would rather see him and Shadow dig tomorrow. That trio or people just keeps bouncing around. Right now of those three, I think I like KJ the least (yes yes, I know my list). Mostly because of the three, KJ is the one I have to keep remembering is in the game. In Prison, I think Vaimes stayed alive as long as he did as a wolf was because he felt slippery (no wolf posts, nothing really except that he wasn't a force this game/didn't take hard stances). I feel KJ is falling into the same patterns. Axel has me really mixed, and tom has just been underwhelming, but I think he will post more later, so their is more rope if he is a wolf.
Rhand had a slight post that pinged me if KJ does end up flipping wolf, but I am not ready to chain that hard. Going to see if I can find it when I stopped getting *****ed at via email.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I am not overly worried about a possible miss on day 1 anyways, given ITFs posts
Lynch this and then we re-evaluates going into day 2.
What's "champs rule"?
@Jack: what exactly would have changed with my read of Sloth? He hadn’t posted between those two points iirc?
@Tom: Mimicking my town game is really not what my scum game is about. Typically scum mimicking their town game implies a preference for town. It might be more accurate to say that my scum game wants to do bad and look good for it, and my town game wants to get things right and doesn’t actually care how it looks (except notably that sometimes I do things as town to better my eventual scum game, but that’s not relevant here).
As far as the actual subject we’re discussing, I very much wanted to get it on the table early and get people to examine what is going on, because I don’t have a better option right now, but I don’t like how there’s not been any other real wagons, I don’t like how there isn’t anyone who seems to think either ITF or Jack is strong town (correct me if I’m wrong).
I guess, what I’m saying isn’t “what if these two scummy people aren’t scum” so much as “What if these two people that aren’t townie are town?” Which maybe you don’t think is different, but to me it is, and is why I brought it up.
@Grape: Even having only really played this game for a couple days, my town reads are almost always stronger than my scum reads. Unless something really gets me going. As far as KJ, I think he’s playing with a level self awareness about his posting that looks very much like low level trying to avoid a repeat of Prison. On top of that, he has bounced around in a bunch of different directions, showing nuanced curiosity towards more things than I think he could fake.
@KJ: I don’t recall enough about what you’re asking about Jack to have a useful dialogue. I think saying his a counter wagon is not true, one has to be a wagon in order to be a counter wagon. As far as people scum reading him, I haven’t found him townie, so scum reads on him seem fine. Jack is odd to me because I feel like he reads very monotone to me, like the opposite of Last or Rod, both being incredibly emotive.
I dislike his response about conceding himself as a good lynch, but that’s playstyle and not alignment.
***********
I think I need to note this because it’s useful info I’ve found about myself.
If I have to catch up in a game more than a couple pages over a weekend or holiday, I have a very difficult time of it. This game may be almost 2 weeks going, but to me it’s been about a weekend that is crammed full. My reads haven’t had time to simmer, I don’t feel strongly about things yet. It’s why I don’t like replacing into games.
It’s my own fault here, I know. This is just me making an effort to convey my mindset so that I don’t seem like I just don’t care, because I do.
There is always at least one wolf in the low/zero posters.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I'm pretty much setteled on a ITF lynch as well best choice today
Anyway all i did was click on his profile and click to the last couple pages of his posts. Those are the two first games (afaict its his second account because people already know him in his first game)
I didnt hard compare him to here i was just finding some indicative quotes then figuring out what alignment he was in both games
I can say the oldest game on this account (the one where he was mafia) looks more like him this game. But he also got replaced out of that game so it may just be analogous in terms of time
But i still come away from looking at 2011 ITF feeling a little worse about him here
Heh that was very similar. If Last / ZDS are town and Shadow mafia, then ITF is a mimic of Winterfell.
He spent the beginning of the game voting his scumbuddy (Shadow here?) and pushing that until the claim saved the buddy and defended the townies under pressure (here Last / ZDS).
Given I’m also not too fond of Shadow (this game, you), I like the ITF lynch.
Rhand, ITF isn't voting shadow nor anyone else. If he ends up voting anyone it will most likely be Jack. Moreover shadow is in no danger of getting lynched at the moment. I don't understand your comparison. :risedeyebrow:
--
I had the same issue in your game until I decided to stop worrying about catching up and having coherent reads. You should try it. It will free you a lot of brainspace.
Remember you are being judged for the posts you make. Not for whether you are caught up or whether you feel strongly about anything. Most players don't feel strongly about many things right now.
I’m curious to how you gathered that info in 13 minutes.
Do you realistically think you can do that quick enough to get enough evidence to move to a new wagon?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
he apparently already did. Curious?