I wanted to townread ITF but couldnt pull the trigger tbh. I might agree it was ~scummy for me. Towntom gets there some amount of the time and manages to move the lynch.
I will say scumtom prolly doesnt bother with the meta. It wasnt that much work but more work than i think id put in just to soften my stance on the inevitable mislynch. Just spoils some of the credit id have been getting for opposing the wagon. If i did do it as scum i probably come back with a really esoteric townread that convinces no one.
At the risk of duplicating ZDS, I’ll probably do my own wagon analysis later. I will say I like the mindset he showed in his.
Private Mod Note
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I wanted to townread ITF but couldnt pull the trigger tbh. I might agree it was ~scummy for me. Towntom gets there some amount of the time and manages to move the lynch.
I will say scumtom prolly doesnt bother with the meta. It wasnt that much work but more work than i think id put in just to soften my stance on the inevitable mislynch. Just spoils some of the credit id have been getting for opposing the wagon. If i did do it as scum i probably come back with a really esoteric townread that convinces no one.
Tom, what is the desired purpose of this post? Also, how is having an esoteric townread that convinces no one different than how you approached ITF?
@ZDS: talk to me about your wagon analysis, specifically what did you find that changed your mind or opinion from where you were yesterday before the analysis?
1. Grapefruit21 - JR Smith
2. ZeDorkSlipeur - Jordan on the Wizards
3. Gentleman Johnny - Draymond Green
4. Rhand - Damian Lillard? Paul George? Regular Season Shaq? Don't feel great about this one
5. Jackrito - Shaun Livingston
6. TubbaFett - Kendrick Perkins
7. shadowlancerx - Rudy Gobert?
8. tomsloger - I had Jimmy Butler but tom rightly pointed out the competitiveness is out of whack. Dr J maybe.
9. Vaimes - Dirk or Kevin Love depending on how strong a comp you want.
10. Lastwhisper - Rasheed Wallace
11. Umami - Ben Simmons
12. M plus 7 - Kyle Lowry Sloth - Pat Beverly
13. Rodemy - A better Jeff Green?
14. ITF - ??? Elgin Baylor?
15. Killjoy - Gordon Hayward
16. Axelrod - Kemba Walker?
Yeah, I still don't know the...sportsball.
So this makes no sense to me and I feel discriminated against!
Welp, a lot has happened that I don't understand. Like we lynched ITF. There's a twilight. There's a governor. There's a big move against shadow and it's not even day 2. I'm sort of catching up and will hopefully have lots of insightful things to say, but I took a second look at some peeps and for now here's my scum prediction:
Jack/Vaimes/ZDS +/- tom in there
That is a bold prediction espically me with Tom.
Always hedge and put tom in the bad list--his chance of being scum defies probability
Actually, add sloth to the hedgelist too
Rude.
Maybe. Actually, not entirely sure what you're saying here? Can you clarify?
For the record I buy tom's defense. There was some level of consensus yesterDay that something was amiss with the ITF wagon (eg the lack of successful counter-wagon or resistance), but nobody was able to come up with a town-case on ITF himself. So it's unfair to single out tom for not doing what nobody was able to do.
That said I may be biased since I fully expected scum to use tom as a scapegoat if he's town (there are other possible scapegoats but he's the best one). That bias is made stronger by Rhand's weak meta-vote (it's not enough to say what scum-tom would have done, you have to say why town-tom wouldn't have done the same) and by what looks like shadow sniffing the air to check if it's okay to join in.
---
shadow, what is your current take on Jack? Are you still scumreading him? Are you still afraid of chaining town lynches?
Regarding the wagon analysis, I tried to keep as open a mind as I possibly could. After all I was wrong on ITF, it would be awfully presumptious of me to assume my other reads were right. Any contradiction with my previously apparent reads is the result of this and I do not mind.
Did you see anything surprising in that analysis? Anyone not ranked as you expected me to?
---
Sloth, I'm sure you must have a lot of things to say. Let us hear them.
Dork, seriously, my eyes glossed over twice trying to get through this. Question on your meta: Do you do these sort of posts both as scum and town this early?
I assume you know why I'm asking.
Axelrod was one of the main driving forces behind the wagon thanks to his PBPA. He removed his vote as soon as ITF answered, which he explained as never having had a strong read on him in the first place (this is confirmed by 536). Aside from this he mostly minded his own business, doing his own analyses and answering questions, while staying relatively connected to the on-going discussions. I am fine with his role in the ITF wagon.
Are you? What do you make of the lack of vote by eoD?
Slothful missed almost the entire Day and had very little to say about the ITF wagon, other than finding Axelrod's PBPA more convincing at proving ITF town (how?) and liking the case on Jackrito better. M plus 7 had nothing to say at all. I'm putting that slot among the "minor issues" by default.
lol did I seriously do that? I'm surprised, I hate PBPA and mostly ignore then.
Thanks for the reminder on Jack.
Tubba Fett did not have a whole lot to say about ITF or the wagon. His first and only post on the subject, 779, was awful in retrospect: he fence-sits massively ("I can see the scummy tendencies others have pointed out on ITF, but I’m not seeing the scum equity") and makes me responsible while fence-sitting some more ("I’m probably gonna sheep Z, except ITF shouldn’t be dinkable this easily."). There is more in the beginning of that post, look it up. It absolutely reeks of TMI and wanting to play both sides. If he truly thought what he said about not seeing ITF as scum he should have been a lot more interested in looking for alternatives. Instead he seemed happy with letting his vote rot on Lastwhisper. Other than this one post, he mostly ignored the subject. I have massive issues with his role in the ITF wagon.
Adding this here to remind myself of it for future analysis.
What's the post#?
As for me, ZeDorkSlipeur, I was one of the main driving forces behind the wagon and repeatedly shut down complaints about it (such as the lack of counterwagon). I did have my share of doubts, but they appeared either too early (Killjoy and Rhand's votes) or too late (ITF's tone towards the end), and up until the very end I never had a town-read on ITF. I am not satisfied with my role in the ITF wagon and I plan to make up for it.
Interesting. Would you say this Dork person is trustworthy?
About tom: as mafia he will take the “this guy is town stance” if his buddy or buddies are on the wagon.
The way he talked about ITF and the willingness to hammer make this more likely mafia!tom than town!tom.
That bias is made stronger by Rhand's weak meta-vote (it's not enough to say what scum-tom would have done, you have to say why town-tom wouldn't have done the same)
Jack's a townlean again. Just cause.
I've never had a scum!rhand, so I don't know what that looks like, but so far this seems like regular rhand so, okay with him around.
Shadow as scum would probably handle the FOS thrown his way with less overt annoyance, even if CFTWR, so townlean.
Dork's grey-fine. He's good at making "describing things that happened" sound like actual analysis when it's not, but I imagine he does that as town as well, and it's early still to have an opinion of it. Like usual, I don't agree with everything he says.
I'm looking forward to seeing what new and interesting feelings Rodemy can elicit on me this game.
Wanna see more of Tubba to do my own analysis and comparison(s).
@ZDS: I'll do my own analysis of the wagon Tues, but I know your analysis of my vote isn't fair. My initial vote in 360 was because I didn't like his entrance, nor his vote on shadow. 974 is additional reasoning for disliking him. It's not a justification or a defense, it's additional. ITF's posts were scummy. His his defeatism after his wagon was scummy. You agreed with this.
Two questions for you though: Why do you reference my vote in your analysis of GJ's vote there? The two things are disconnected.
And why are you analyzing your own vote on the wagon? No one asked for that. It's not entirely normal to do that in this kind of analysis.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Slothful missed almost the entire Day and had very little to say about the ITF wagon, other than finding Axelrod's PBPA more convincing at proving ITF town (how?) and liking the case on Jackrito better. M plus 7 had nothing to say at all. I'm putting that slot among the "minor issues" by default.
See I just spent 2 hours looking at 9 whole posts writing this, and of course there are no smoking guns, because this is freaking D1, but here you are.
On ITF: I don't particularly like his entrance post #270. He says three things here, and kind of undercuts himself twice: (1) Doesn't think Last is particularly scummy BUT (here is a scummy thing I would like him to explain. (2) I think ZDS made a decent point on Umami BUT (it is also weak and I don't agree with this other thing). And (3) Thinks ZDS is scumhunting and is not interested in lynching him (which is not quite the same thing as saying he thinks ZDS is Town).
It's a tiny bit strange that ZDS is the one he singles out here as not wanting to lynch when he apparently disagreed with both ZDS's main conclusions to that point (on LW and then on Umami)
He then will explain in #274 that it is actually ZDS's reversal on LW which is making him like ZDS - his re-evaluating of his reads. I don't think that's an especially good reason to town-read someone, but, YMMV.
He then votes Shadow for Shadow's very first post/vote of the game, saying it was the "scummiest" vote on LW. I think that represented the third vote on Shadow (Vaimes, Rhand, ITF). Doesn't say what he felt was scummy about it, except that he's saying he now thinks LW is likely Town - ergo, vote the "scummiest" vote against the person you think is Town. I do not know who else may have been voting for LW and why they said they were (except ZDS did at one point, and ITF did not think that was scummy).
He then indicates willingness to follow a wagon onto Tubba. Which is...okay? as a thing to throw out there, but would maybe be better with some explanation.
#415 he defends himself from accusations he's been lazy by basically admitting it, but saying expressing himself is exhausting and time consuming and he is starting to doubt he can even do it? Which is kind of a
He also further attempts to explain his Town-read on ZDS by saying it was not just the fact that ZDS re-evaluated his reads, but it was the way that ZDS changed his mind that looked Townie, and also, he thinks he's got a meta read on ZDS because in another game he thought ZDS was scum, but ZDS feels different this game.
I feel like the meta reads would be a lot more useful if they were for something more than a player "feeling" different. Like, what's different?
He then makes the same kind of reverse meta read on Jakrito, saying he felt Jack was obv-Town in that other game, but doesn't have the same feeling here. (I don't think he's said anything about Jackrito before this). He appears to be responding to a few players saying they thought Jack was Town, and Jack saying no one should be Town-reading him at this point because he hasn't done anything.
That's it. There's nothing that stands out to me as a particularly Townie post, and a few posts I could easily see coming from scum. I get the sense he's a new player, which muddies things a bit, but, in the interests of pushing things forward, this seems like a fine place to be atm
Vote: ITF
Still going to be looking at other people, but that's all I'm doing right now.
Like, yeah: All those posts he's quoting reflect somebody working through their thoughts, especially that early in the game.
If you're looking at those as scummy is because you want them to be scummy.
I was going to go into detail on each posts as to why it's not, but that's pointless, dude's fliped green already. If I was going on that one post alone, I would not have ever voted ITF.
Also makes me ??? Axel, which, hey, goes even more to my vote. Go me!
@ZDS: I'll do my own analysis of the wagon Tues, but I know your analysis of my vote isn't fair. My initial vote in 360 was because I didn't like his entrance, nor his vote on shadow. 974 is additional reasoning for disliking him. It's not a justification or a defense, it's additional. ITF's posts were scummy. His his defeatism after his wagon was scummy. You agreed with this.
Two questions for you though: Why do you reference my vote in your analysis of GJ's vote there? The two things are disconnected.
And why are you analyzing your own vote on the wagon? No one asked for that. It's not entirely normal to do that in this kind of analysis.
Hey KJ, who else were you scumreading before the ITF flipped green?
Actually, let's look at it this way: Pretend ITF flipped red, who would you be pushing as his partners toDay?
@ZDS: I'll do my own analysis of the wagon Tues, but I know your analysis of my vote isn't fair. My initial vote in 360 was because I didn't like his entrance, nor his vote on shadow. 974 is additional reasoning for disliking him. It's not a justification or a defense, it's additional. ITF's posts were scummy. His his defeatism after his wagon was scummy. You agreed with this.
Two questions for you though: Why do you reference my vote in your analysis of GJ's vote there? The two things are disconnected.
And why are you analyzing your own vote on the wagon? No one asked for that. It's not entirely normal to do that in this kind of analysis.
Hey KJ, who else were you scumreading before the ITF flipped green?
Actually, let's look at it this way: Pretend ITF flipped red, who would you be pushing as his partners toDay?
I wasn't looking for partners. I don't usually look for them d1.
The most likely would be finding the scum on his wagon though. Which I will analyze Tuesday while I do the rest of the wagon.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Jack's a townlean again. Just cause.
I've never had a scum!rhand, so I don't know what that looks like, but so far this seems like regular rhand so, okay with him around.
Shadow as scum would probably handle the FOS thrown his way with less overt annoyance, even if CFTWR, so townlean.
Dork's grey-fine. He's good at making "describing things that happened" sound like actual analysis when it's not, but I imagine he does that as town as well, and it's early still to have an opinion of it. Like usual, I don't agree with everything he says.
I'm looking forward to seeing what new and interesting feelings Rodemy can elicit on me this game.
Wanna see more of Tubba to do my own analysis and comparison(s).
Anyway, here's a hottake. Axel's scum.
Vote Axelrod
Care to expand on why i'm town now? I agree on Shadow though as I said before day end. I feel that ZDS can do this as town and scum based off prison and the type of stuff he was doing. Most people who can fake it as scum are good at doing for real when town, but agree on your end stance on them for now.
vote Axelrod
for now at least I think this is a decent place to be voting.
I say now because I thought that you agreed with Tom's case on me, just checked and you said my play is different enough from prison to make me scum.
on Umani just going to copy what I said yesterday for now. Add in them not being around the EOD to that though as well and just being pretty passive imo.
I'm still sold on Umani I don't really care what others think they is scum intent in their posts at times for me. I don't like how she constantly trys to appear town and call themselves such this is a issue for me. I also feel they misrepresent facts a lot one that caught my eye is them saying their only serious vote was Tubba which is false since they voted me eariler and that was not RVS. I don't know if she forgot that or what but bothers me the Tubba vote also feels opportunistic to me and over the top in the approach.I just get a general nevrous tone from them when under pressure as well they is constant backtracking and feels like she just does what thinks will get her townread like I said earlier. Add this to a lack of real commitment on reads apart from calling tubba and me scum it feels like they are doing best to leave options open in the long run. Their 337 is the only post I really liked. I'm semi dropping this because you all see something I clearly do not here, but I stick by my view,
I semi take issue with ZDS ignoring that part of my scum read was to do with ITF's readlist which I pushed them on a lot, I was wrong on the flip, but that that readlist still made no sense to me and felt like a scum faking one.
Lots of questions / interactions for once (compared with Day 1), it's me time! For questions with answers I think everyone should pay attention to, anyway.
On the big post:
I do big analytical posts as either alignment. I like to use Nights for that purpose. That said anyone who doesn't see the difference between the kinda hedgy wagon analysis I did here and the tunnely PBPAs I made in Prison Block should get their eyes checked.
I gave a testimony of my feelings on my own role in the ITF wagon for openness purposes. You can't call this an analysis, even if I put it alongside actual analyses. If I wasn't last in alphabetical order I would have separated my paragraph from the others more.
I mostly didn't like how much time Killjoy spent asking questions about ITF (especially to Axelrod) *between* voting him and reaffirming his read much later.
I referenced KJ's vote in the Johnny analysis as an attempt to understand what may have motivated the quick progression of his (Johnny's) ITF read from null to not-so-null.
My notes show several instances of Jack interrogating ITF over his readslist, of which I wasn't fond either. I didn't find this relevant enough one way or another so I didn't end up posting about it.
There is a lot more in my notes that didn't make it to my post. If, like Jack, you think I missed something important, let me and the rest of us know. If you can explain why it's important, even better.
On players:
I don't particularly care that Axelrod wasn't voting/accusing anyone by the end of yesterDay. I will start caring if he does the same toDay. Besides he, like tom, is a potential scapegoat if town.
Sloth is acting like he is relatively clueless about Day 1 events, yet at the same time somehow has strong and controversial stances. What the heck.
Rhand's answer to what-would-town-tom-do is generic rather than meta-specific, and I really disagree that tom agreed. He agreed on what the ideal case scenario would have been, which is very different. By the way I don't lay traps, they are a terrible scumhunting tool (too many false positives).
I like Jack's paragraph on Umami. I wish he skipped lines though.
One last clarification:
I don't find martyrdom scummy and I never made a post that implied I did. Look up 832/833 yourselves. Rhand may have implied he did in 834, but he's not me.
Adding this here to remind myself of it for future analysis.
What's the post#?
779, it says so in the block of text.
How much have you read from Day 1? How far are you caught up?
---
I don't like the votes on Axelrod and they worsen my opinion of the players making them. Not that there's much to like about these votes, maybe Sloth can expand on his and Jack can stop acting like he did last game (more openly) when he voted how we agreed in chat.
Vote: Tubba Fett
He's scummier than Axel and tom, less likely to be used as a scapegoat, and I trust Whispy more than I do Rhand, Sloth and Jack. Arguments for the vote are in my big analysis post.
Jack did state during Day 1 he was scumreading Axel so scratch "Jack can stop acting like he did last game (more openly) when he voted how we agreed in chat". I do still wish he'd justify his vote more.
Lots of questions / interactions for once (compared with Day 1), it's me time! For questions with answers I think everyone should pay attention to, anyway.
On the big post:
I do big analytical posts as either alignment. I like to use Nights for that purpose. That said anyone who doesn't see the difference between the kinda hedgy wagon analysis I did here and the tunnely PBPAs I made in Prison Block should get their eyes checked.
I gave a testimony of my feelings on my own role in the ITF wagon for openness purposes. You can't call this an analysis, even if I put it alongside actual analyses. If I wasn't last in alphabetical order I would have separated my paragraph from the others more.
I mostly didn't like how much time Killjoy spent asking questions about ITF (especially to Axelrod) *between* voting him and reaffirming his read much later.
I referenced KJ's vote in the Johnny analysis as an attempt to understand what may have motivated the quick progression of his (Johnny's) ITF read from null to not-so-null.
My notes show several instances of Jack interrogating ITF over his readslist, of which I wasn't fond either. I didn't find this relevant enough one way or another so I didn't end up posting about it.
There is a lot more in my notes that didn't make it to my post. If, like Jack, you think I missed something important, let me and the rest of us know. If you can explain why it's important, even better.
On players:
I don't particularly care that Axelrod wasn't voting/accusing anyone by the end of yesterDay. I will start caring if he does the same toDay. Besides he, like tom, is a potential scapegoat if town.
Sloth is acting like he is relatively clueless about Day 1 events, yet at the same time somehow has strong and controversial stances. What the heck.
Rhand's answer to what-would-town-tom-do is generic rather than meta-specific, and I really disagree that tom agreed. He agreed on what the ideal case scenario would have been, which is very different. By the way I don't lay traps, they are a terrible scumhunting tool (too many false positives).
I like Jack's paragraph on Umami. I wish he skipped lines though.
One last clarification:
I don't find martyrdom scummy and I never made a post that implied I did. Look up 832/833 yourselves. Rhand may have implied he did in 834, but he's not me.
Adding this here to remind myself of it for future analysis.
What's the post#?
779, it says so in the block of text.
How much have you read from Day 1? How far are you caught up?
---
I don't like the votes on Axelrod and they worsen my opinion of the players making them. Not that there's much to like about these votes, maybe Sloth can expand on his and Jack can stop acting like he did last game (more openly) when he voted how we agreed in chat.
Vote: Tubba Fett
He's scummier than Axel and tom, less likely to be used as a scapegoat, and I trust Whispy more than I do Rhand, Sloth and Jack. Arguments for the vote are in my big analysis post.
I'm not sure how you don't find pushing someone on their reads is not relevant when that shows someone's view of the game state and if it matchs up with their comments in a consistent way. I'm not sure what the issue with the axel vote is either I want to apply pressure on a slot, the attack for this I find weird at this point in the game.
I talked about Axel in my big review day one my main points were that I did not like how much they were defending their own meta then scum hunting a lot at the start. I also did not like their vote on Grape for lying in his view for not being active when Axel did the same thing. Another was how he goes to read everyone, but just ends up scum reading and makes a case on the first person this feels so unreal to me. I don't think I ever did that maybe just me. His case on ITF is not bad, ITF had a lot of scum equity though, he also copied some of your points as you said. The next real push is on Tubba which as shown by today is a safe push off Tubba early game which is bad. He did respond to these points but not in a way that I found enough to clear my doubts putting half of it as jokes mainly his vote on Grape.
As scum I would maybe expect him to push on me more after reviewing me since I had heat at the time, I could be wrong here but still want pressure here. after he reviews the wagon, I will rethink it, but I'm fine for now.
About tom: as mafia he will take the “this guy is town stance” if his buddy or buddies are on the wagon.
The way he talked about ITF and the willingness to hammer make this more likely mafia!tom than town!tom.
Also, he keeps throwing me in his town pile while I hardly took any stances this game. I am usually trying to steer the game from Day 1 as both alignments. He should have at best a null read on me.
I agree on Shadow.
vote tom
Considering you used meta to scum read ITF and that didn't work out too well, i'm gonna have to see some harder evidence than this.
Rhand is very suspicious to me due to the case on ITF he pulled from his winterfell game. This post screams "It worked for ITF, maybe it will work for tom"
I don't like it.
To be honest i got in a sort of accident with a chicken and now i have a scratch on my cornea. I want tor had but i literally can't focus with just one eye. Give me a few days to recover?
For now
I don't have any solid reads anymore. I'd say axelrod and hand due to their heavy pushes on ITF, but then i'd have to rope myself into that list, due to be sheeping both of those cases. The thing is, they both felt genuine and made sense. Everyone can agree with that (except maybe those that think Axle is scum)
I think the best i can go with is Vaimes (i remember there was a reason i had him on my list but i am in too much pain to actually go back and read what it is. .. it's been a few days and i can't for the life of me remember)
so vote vaimes I'll keep my vote there.
One ore thing Shadow i just thought you werree scum due to your lack of activity. And your underwhelming posts. You've made some progress toDay and can probably move down the list. But i think there is at least one scum in
Shadow/vaimes/Axel/tom
Im going to bed, my eye hurts.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thank you for choosing
Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
I am currently happy with calling ZDS town, his playstyle is clear and cut different
He is focusing more on the game as whole, rather than pushing on only 1 or 2 reads
Talking about himself isnt all that strange given how he presents himself
Jack is also pretty much not in a spot where I feel like I need to evaluate him
I really like Tom's emotion during twilight of Day 1, he will probably call this NAI, but honestly, I don't care
since I think its easier to read Tom on a micro level rather than a macro level
GJ has also been consistent in a way that feels natural, so ya, also not really worried about him atm
doubtful that there isnt at least one mafia on ITF's train
and I am assuming this game is like 4 wolves given the size?
so like (1-3) else where
@ZDS
in regards to your? thoughts on Shadow, I don't really believe that kind of reaction isn't anything he couldn't fake
Vaimes had a presence early on that felt townie, and then just kinda went back to usually Vaimes that could go either way
need more from Sloth
and Axel
Rodemy going from obvious wolf tell to possibly town is still ???
it's probably more of Rodemy thing then an alignment thing if I want to be frank
everyone else doesn't have anything I really remember from off the top of my head
probably all you are going to get tonight
The Cumuloform called Expanded Version Five; Zourd drifted into the lee of the two-kilometre-wide Vaw-yei Tower and started elongating itself, eventually extending one single trailing tip of cloud down to the surface of a much smaller though still substantial tower protruding fifty metres or so from the ocean.
Ferbin and Holse stepped out of a hole which had appeared in the side of the lowest of the bubble chambers they had occupied for the last few days. Waiting for them at the centre of the tower was a raised portion like the one in which they had taken shelter back on the Eighth. Ferbin turned and called, “Farewell, and thank you!” to the cloud, and heard a strange chorus of whispers say, “Goodbye.”
“Better not miss the coach,” Holse said. They stepped into the chamber, which took them down towards the base of the nearby Tower. A scendship was waiting for them at the far end of the great hall and the gleaming, multifarious doors.
...
The scendship slowed for the final time. They watched the last few lights disappear around the side of the craft. Thumps, squelches and sighing noises announced some sort of conclusion, and the door rolled open to the side.
A single Oct in a glistening membrane was waiting between two of the sets of doors.
“Greetings,” it said. It extended one limb holding a small device, which beeped. It extended another limb. “Documents, if pleased. Authority of Vaw-yei Towermaster Tagratark.”
“The Grand Zamerin, if you please,” Ferbin said.
“Others await. They cause confluence of you/Grand Zamerin, possibility. Or authorised in place of. Additional, explanatory. Grand Zamerin not present. Gone off. Distantly. Documents.”
“What do you mean, gone off?” Ferbin asked.
“What do you mean, others await?” Holse said, looking around, hand going to his knife.
I say now because I thought that you agreed with Tom's case on me, just checked and you said my play is different enough from prison to make me scum.
on Umani just going to copy what I said yesterday for now. Add in them not being around the EOD to that though as well and just being pretty passive imo.
I'm still sold on Umani I don't really care what others think they is scum intent in their posts at times for me. I don't like how she constantly trys to appear town and call themselves such this is a issue for me. I also feel they misrepresent facts a lot one that caught my eye is them saying their only serious vote was Tubba which is false since they voted me eariler and that was not RVS. I don't know if she forgot that or what but bothers me the Tubba vote also feels opportunistic to me and over the top in the approach.I just get a general nevrous tone from them when under pressure as well they is constant backtracking and feels like she just does what thinks will get her townread like I said earlier. Add this to a lack of real commitment on reads apart from calling tubba and me scum it feels like they are doing best to leave options open in the long run. Their 337 is the only post I really liked. I'm semi dropping this because you all see something I clearly do not here, but I stick by my view,
Pretty sure I said both cases were unimpressive.
Admittedly, I did say that Tom's case was valid if true, given what I remember of the way you play. There just wasn't a lot to see to back up his claims, and until I myself see the deviation, I'm okay with how I'm reading you.
Speaking of Tom's read, link me to your post where you cased Umami, and any other posts about that read you care to share.
If you feel so strongly about Umami, is other people townreading her really enough reason for (semi)dropping her and not try to convince others - specially me, the guy that just walked into the game?
I really like Tom's emotion during twilight of Day 1
i felt an emotion during twilight?
yes, when you yelled at us for debating on ITF's alignment before his flip
you are going to say that means nothing, but on a micro level I think otherwise
#fiteme
Rhand's answer to what-would-town-tom-do is generic rather than meta-specific, and I really disagree that tom agreed. He agreed on what the ideal case scenario would have been, which is very different.
You could ask tom if he agreed, rather and speculate on what he might have meant?
How much have you read from Day 1? How far are you caught up?
Ive read everything from page 23 onwards, and a couple of posts I was pointed to, and that's it.
I don't plan to change that, before you ask. Not making my way through over a thousand posts unless I absolutely have to, I'm sure I can pick things up just fine like this.
He's scummier than Axel and tom, less likely to be used as a scapegoat, and I trust Whispy more than I do Rhand, Sloth and Jack. Arguments for the vote are in my big analysis post.
Rude.
Sure, I'm voting the guy who lead (read: had a large role in getting others into the ITF wagon) the ML on a weak case and near the eoD moved the vote off of him after the lynch was set in stone because of "never having a strong read in the first place" and not because there was another stronger lead to follow as shown by how the game looked at the end. And I am pretty cool with that.
But I'll also look into Tubba 'cause you/Last.
I actually really like this post, keep it up, probable!town.
To be honest i got in a sort of accident with a chicken and now i have a scratch on my cornea. I want tor had but i literally can't focus with just one eye. Give me a few days to recover?
Wow. Feel better!
Let me know if you feel like sharing that story, because I definitely want to hear it.
I really like Tom's emotion during twilight of Day 1
i felt an emotion during twilight?
yes, when you yelled at us for debating on ITF's alignment before his flip
you are going to say that means nothing, but on a micro level I think otherwise
#fiteme
I like that Jack is wary of being misrepresented, it reflects well on his mindset.
Jack, consistency is not nearly as relevant as inconsistency when determining if someone is scum. Scum can easily be very consistent by faking tunneling and hammering the same arguments over and over again, and it's hard to tell the difference with town. On the other hand a lot more can be guessed from inconsistencies. That's why I focused on these overall in my analysis, not only in your paragraph.
Regarding your read on Axelrod, did ITF's flip influence it at all? Isn't the last paragraph of 1182 a point in his favour?
tom is coasting right now.
tom, "scapegoat" for the ITF lynch, or in your case letting it happen.
Any thoughts on Sloth (your current vote)? Any intent to resume pushing against Jack (based on 1191 you still scumread him)?
I keep waiting for Sloth to post something substantial (rather than merely long) because it keeps bothering me how many reads he has compared with how little reading and investigating he's done.
In Prison he seemed way more careful about his reads, even taking into account the different context of how he joined the game. You see him ask around and gather evidence until he can make educated guesses. But in this game it's the opposite, he throws placeholder reads like rice at a wedding. There are exceptions in both cases (eg Zionite last game, Tubba here) but they are just that, exceptions.
Sloth,
— I don't need to speculate when I can use reading comprehension instead;
— What's a PBPA to you? Strictly a series of quoted & commented posts? Not that it's particularly relevant, I'm just curious;
— Generally speaking, do your thing. Maybe you'll prove my worries wrong.
Last is Whispy (ba-dum tsing). I liked his big post but agreement makes me biased.
Whispy, what do you mean re:shadow? What reaction are you talking about, how does it relate with my thoughts, and does it reflect well or poorly on him? Can you reformulate without the confusing double-negative?
Damn getting blamed for a lynch i didnt want. Crazy.
Consistency/inconsistency is rarely AI imo
For sloth, that definitely ties into my basketball analogy. His way of interacting with the thread is much showier and hollower. Hes shooting long 2s and getting lost in transition
Think hes scum
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
And really try to convince us of his townread.
I will say scumtom prolly doesnt bother with the meta. It wasnt that much work but more work than i think id put in just to soften my stance on the inevitable mislynch. Just spoils some of the credit id have been getting for opposing the wagon. If i did do it as scum i probably come back with a really esoteric townread that convinces no one.
ill probably do stuff after my shift
@ZDS: talk to me about your wagon analysis, specifically what did you find that changed your mind or opinion from where you were yesterday before the analysis?
Yes thats kinda the point. Its what id already been doing. As a wolf knowing hes about to flip town why would i stop?
Oh, you know. The economy. Stress. Not sure I like the state of my lawn right now, to be honest. Sup with you, honey bun?
So this makes no sense to me and I feel discriminated against!
Maybe. Actually, not entirely sure what you're saying here? Can you clarify?
That said I may be biased since I fully expected scum to use tom as a scapegoat if he's town (there are other possible scapegoats but he's the best one). That bias is made stronger by Rhand's weak meta-vote (it's not enough to say what scum-tom would have done, you have to say why town-tom wouldn't have done the same) and by what looks like shadow sniffing the air to check if it's okay to join in.
---
shadow, what is your current take on Jack? Are you still scumreading him? Are you still afraid of chaining town lynches?
Regarding the wagon analysis, I tried to keep as open a mind as I possibly could. After all I was wrong on ITF, it would be awfully presumptious of me to assume my other reads were right. Any contradiction with my previously apparent reads is the result of this and I do not mind.
Did you see anything surprising in that analysis? Anyone not ranked as you expected me to?
---
Sloth, I'm sure you must have a lot of things to say. Let us hear them.
Were there other wagons?
Since April 16???
I assume you know why I'm asking. Are you? What do you make of the lack of vote by eoD?
lol did I seriously do that? I'm surprised, I hate PBPA and mostly ignore then.
Thanks for the reminder on Jack.
Adding this here to remind myself of it for future analysis.
What's the post#?
Interesting. Would you say this Dork person is trustworthy?
I answered the above and tom even agrees with my reasoning, and yet you post this:
Why even ask the first question to start with?
Jack's a townlean again. Just cause.
I've never had a scum!rhand, so I don't know what that looks like, but so far this seems like regular rhand so, okay with him around.
Shadow as scum would probably handle the FOS thrown his way with less overt annoyance, even if CFTWR, so townlean.
Dork's grey-fine. He's good at making "describing things that happened" sound like actual analysis when it's not, but I imagine he does that as town as well, and it's early still to have an opinion of it. Like usual, I don't agree with everything he says.
I'm looking forward to seeing what new and interesting feelings Rodemy can elicit on me this game.
Wanna see more of Tubba to do my own analysis and comparison(s).
Anyway, here's a hottake. Axel's scum.
Vote Axelrod
She left her vote on me all day?
Needs pressure
vote: Tubba
Atleast till I can deep dive this game
Two questions for you though: Why do you reference my vote in your analysis of GJ's vote there? The two things are disconnected.
And why are you analyzing your own vote on the wagon? No one asked for that. It's not entirely normal to do that in this kind of analysis.
If you're looking at those as scummy is because you want them to be scummy.
I was going to go into detail on each posts as to why it's not, but that's pointless, dude's fliped green already. If I was going on that one post alone, I would not have ever voted ITF.
Also makes me ??? Axel, which, hey, goes even more to my vote. Go me!
Actually, let's look at it this way: Pretend ITF flipped red, who would you be pushing as his partners toDay?
The most likely would be finding the scum on his wagon though. Which I will analyze Tuesday while I do the rest of the wagon.
Care to expand on why i'm town now? I agree on Shadow though as I said before day end. I feel that ZDS can do this as town and scum based off prison and the type of stuff he was doing. Most people who can fake it as scum are good at doing for real when town, but agree on your end stance on them for now.
vote Axelrod
for now at least I think this is a decent place to be voting.
What do you mean by "now"?
What's wrong with Umami?
I say now because I thought that you agreed with Tom's case on me, just checked and you said my play is different enough from prison to make me scum.
on Umani just going to copy what I said yesterday for now. Add in them not being around the EOD to that though as well and just being pretty passive imo.
I'm still sold on Umani I don't really care what others think they is scum intent in their posts at times for me. I don't like how she constantly trys to appear town and call themselves such this is a issue for me. I also feel they misrepresent facts a lot one that caught my eye is them saying their only serious vote was Tubba which is false since they voted me eariler and that was not RVS. I don't know if she forgot that or what but bothers me the Tubba vote also feels opportunistic to me and over the top in the approach.I just get a general nevrous tone from them when under pressure as well they is constant backtracking and feels like she just does what thinks will get her townread like I said earlier. Add this to a lack of real commitment on reads apart from calling tubba and me scum it feels like they are doing best to leave options open in the long run. Their 337 is the only post I really liked. I'm semi dropping this because you all see something I clearly do not here, but I stick by my view,
On the big post:
I do big analytical posts as either alignment. I like to use Nights for that purpose. That said anyone who doesn't see the difference between the kinda hedgy wagon analysis I did here and the tunnely PBPAs I made in Prison Block should get their eyes checked.
I gave a testimony of my feelings on my own role in the ITF wagon for openness purposes. You can't call this an analysis, even if I put it alongside actual analyses. If I wasn't last in alphabetical order I would have separated my paragraph from the others more.
I mostly didn't like how much time Killjoy spent asking questions about ITF (especially to Axelrod) *between* voting him and reaffirming his read much later.
I referenced KJ's vote in the Johnny analysis as an attempt to understand what may have motivated the quick progression of his (Johnny's) ITF read from null to not-so-null.
My notes show several instances of Jack interrogating ITF over his readslist, of which I wasn't fond either. I didn't find this relevant enough one way or another so I didn't end up posting about it.
There is a lot more in my notes that didn't make it to my post. If, like Jack, you think I missed something important, let me and the rest of us know. If you can explain why it's important, even better.
On players:
I don't particularly care that Axelrod wasn't voting/accusing anyone by the end of yesterDay. I will start caring if he does the same toDay. Besides he, like tom, is a potential scapegoat if town.
Sloth is acting like he is relatively clueless about Day 1 events, yet at the same time somehow has strong and controversial stances. What the heck.
Rhand's answer to what-would-town-tom-do is generic rather than meta-specific, and I really disagree that tom agreed. He agreed on what the ideal case scenario would have been, which is very different. By the way I don't lay traps, they are a terrible scumhunting tool (too many false positives).
I like Jack's paragraph on Umami. I wish he skipped lines though.
One last clarification:
I don't find martyrdom scummy and I never made a post that implied I did. Look up 832/833 yourselves. Rhand may have implied he did in 834, but he's not me.
---
You can dish'em but you can't take'em?
779, it says so in the block of text.
How much have you read from Day 1? How far are you caught up?
---
I don't like the votes on Axelrod and they worsen my opinion of the players making them. Not that there's much to like about these votes, maybe Sloth can expand on his and Jack can stop acting like he did last game (more openly) when he voted how we agreed in chat.
Vote: Tubba Fett
He's scummier than Axel and tom, less likely to be used as a scapegoat, and I trust Whispy more than I do Rhand, Sloth and Jack. Arguments for the vote are in my big analysis post.
I'm not sure how you don't find pushing someone on their reads is not relevant when that shows someone's view of the game state and if it matchs up with their comments in a consistent way. I'm not sure what the issue with the axel vote is either I want to apply pressure on a slot, the attack for this I find weird at this point in the game.
I talked about Axel in my big review day one my main points were that I did not like how much they were defending their own meta then scum hunting a lot at the start. I also did not like their vote on Grape for lying in his view for not being active when Axel did the same thing. Another was how he goes to read everyone, but just ends up scum reading and makes a case on the first person this feels so unreal to me. I don't think I ever did that maybe just me. His case on ITF is not bad, ITF had a lot of scum equity though, he also copied some of your points as you said. The next real push is on Tubba which as shown by today is a safe push off Tubba early game which is bad. He did respond to these points but not in a way that I found enough to clear my doubts putting half of it as jokes mainly his vote on Grape.
As scum I would maybe expect him to push on me more after reviewing me since I had heat at the time, I could be wrong here but still want pressure here. after he reviews the wagon, I will rethink it, but I'm fine for now.
I don't understand your use of the word Tonally. Please explain?
Considering you used meta to scum read ITF and that didn't work out too well, i'm gonna have to see some harder evidence than this.
Rhand is very suspicious to me due to the case on ITF he pulled from his winterfell game. This post screams "It worked for ITF, maybe it will work for tom"
I don't like it.
To be honest i got in a sort of accident with a chicken and now i have a scratch on my cornea. I want tor had but i literally can't focus with just one eye. Give me a few days to recover?
For now
I don't have any solid reads anymore. I'd say axelrod and hand due to their heavy pushes on ITF, but then i'd have to rope myself into that list, due to be sheeping both of those cases. The thing is, they both felt genuine and made sense. Everyone can agree with that (except maybe those that think Axle is scum)
I think the best i can go with is Vaimes (i remember there was a reason i had him on my list but i am in too much pain to actually go back and read what it is. .. it's been a few days and i can't for the life of me remember)
so vote vaimes I'll keep my vote there.
One ore thing Shadow i just thought you werree scum due to your lack of activity. And your underwhelming posts. You've made some progress toDay and can probably move down the list. But i think there is at least one scum in
Shadow/vaimes/Axel/tom
Im going to bed, my eye hurts.
He is focusing more on the game as whole, rather than pushing on only 1 or 2 reads
Talking about himself isnt all that strange given how he presents himself
Jack is also pretty much not in a spot where I feel like I need to evaluate him
I really like Tom's emotion during twilight of Day 1, he will probably call this NAI, but honestly, I don't care
since I think its easier to read Tom on a micro level rather than a macro level
GJ has also been consistent in a way that feels natural, so ya, also not really worried about him atm
1. Grapefruit21
4. Rhand
6. TubbaFett
7. shadowlancerx
9. Vaimes
11. Umami
12. Sloth
13. Rodemy
15. Killjoy
16. Axelrod
I plan on going through the above PoE little by little
ITF - 9 (Killjoy, ZeDorkSlipeur, Rhand, Gentleman Johnny, shadowlancerx, Lastwhisper, Vaimes, Rodemy, Jackrito)
Lastwhisper - 1 (Tubba Fett)
Tubba Fett - 1 (Umami)
Jackrito - 1 (Grapefruit21)
shadowlancerx - 1 (tomsloger)
Not Voting - 3 (Slothful, ITF, Axelrod)
doubtful that there isnt at least one mafia on ITF's train
and I am assuming this game is like 4 wolves given the size?
so like (1-3) else where
@ZDS
in regards to your? thoughts on Shadow, I don't really believe that kind of reaction isn't anything he couldn't fake
Vaimes had a presence early on that felt townie, and then just kinda went back to usually Vaimes that could go either way
need more from Sloth
and Axel
Rodemy going from obvious wolf tell to possibly town is still ???
it's probably more of Rodemy thing then an alignment thing if I want to be frank
everyone else doesn't have anything I really remember from off the top of my head
probably all you are going to get tonight
I forgot a lot of what happened, except that shadow's read on me felt really fake.
Vote shadow
Ferbin and Holse stepped out of a hole which had appeared in the side of the lowest of the bubble chambers they had occupied for the last few days. Waiting for them at the centre of the tower was a raised portion like the one in which they had taken shelter back on the Eighth. Ferbin turned and called, “Farewell, and thank you!” to the cloud, and heard a strange chorus of whispers say, “Goodbye.”
“Better not miss the coach,” Holse said. They stepped into the chamber, which took them down towards the base of the nearby Tower. A scendship was waiting for them at the far end of the great hall and the gleaming, multifarious doors.
...
The scendship slowed for the final time. They watched the last few lights disappear around the side of the craft. Thumps, squelches and sighing noises announced some sort of conclusion, and the door rolled open to the side.
A single Oct in a glistening membrane was waiting between two of the sets of doors.
“Greetings,” it said. It extended one limb holding a small device, which beeped. It extended another limb. “Documents, if pleased. Authority of Vaw-yei Towermaster Tagratark.”
“The Grand Zamerin, if you please,” Ferbin said.
“Others await. They cause confluence of you/Grand Zamerin, possibility. Or authorised in place of. Additional, explanatory. Grand Zamerin not present. Gone off. Distantly. Documents.”
“What do you mean, gone off?” Ferbin asked.
“What do you mean, others await?” Holse said, looking around, hand going to his knife.
Tubba Fett - 2 (Lastwhisper, ZeDorkSlipeur)
Slothful - 1 (tomsloger)
tomsloger - 1 (Rhand)
Vaimes - 1 (Rodemy)
shadowlancerx - 1 (Vaimes)
Not Voting - 7 (Grapefruit21, Gentleman Johnny, Tubba Fett, shadowlancerx, Umami, Killjoy, Axelrod)
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to achieve a majority.
Day 2 ends at 11:59:59 PM Eastern Time on 05 May 2020.
Vote Count 1.1
Vote Count 1.2
Vote Count 1.3
Vote Count 1.4
Vote Count 1.5
Vote Count 1.6
Vote Count 1.7
Vote Count 1.8
Vote Count 1.9
Vote Count 1.10 [Final]
End of Day 1
Admittedly, I did say that Tom's case was valid if true, given what I remember of the way you play. There just wasn't a lot to see to back up his claims, and until I myself see the deviation, I'm okay with how I'm reading you.
Speaking of Tom's read, link me to your post where you cased Umami, and any other posts about that read you care to share.
If you feel so strongly about Umami, is other people townreading her really enough reason for (semi)dropping her and not try to convince others - specially me, the guy that just walked into the game?
There remains no actual pushing or doing anything to convince anyone.
Why these names
you are going to say that means nothing, but on a micro level I think otherwise
#fiteme
ZSone (spelled with an 's' for alliteration!)You could ask tom if he agreed, rather and speculate on what he might have meant?
Do we have the same definition of PBPA? When did I do it? I actually don't think I'd call that Axel post we were talking about PBPA either.
Ive read everything from page 23 onwards, and a couple of posts I was pointed to, and that's it.
I don't plan to change that, before you ask. Not making my way through over a thousand posts unless I absolutely have to, I'm sure I can pick things up just fine like this.
Rude.
Sure, I'm voting the guy who lead (read: had a large role in getting others into the ITF wagon) the ML on a weak case and near the eoD moved the vote off of him after the lynch was set in stone because of "never having a strong read in the first place" and not because there was another stronger lead to follow as shown by how the game looked at the end. And I am pretty cool with that.
But I'll also look into Tubba 'cause you/Last.
I actually really like this post, keep it up, probable!town.
Let me know if you feel like sharing that story, because I definitely want to hear it.
Hm. Talk to me about Tom and Shadow.
(When you come back, I mean)
I like that Jack is wary of being misrepresented, it reflects well on his mindset.
Jack, consistency is not nearly as relevant as inconsistency when determining if someone is scum. Scum can easily be very consistent by faking tunneling and hammering the same arguments over and over again, and it's hard to tell the difference with town. On the other hand a lot more can be guessed from inconsistencies. That's why I focused on these overall in my analysis, not only in your paragraph.
Regarding your read on Axelrod, did ITF's flip influence it at all? Isn't the last paragraph of 1182 a point in his favour?
tom is coasting right now.
tom, "scapegoat" for the ITF lynch, or in your case letting it happen.
Any thoughts on Sloth (your current vote)? Any intent to resume pushing against Jack (based on 1191 you still scumread him)?
I keep waiting for Sloth to post something substantial (rather than merely long) because it keeps bothering me how many reads he has compared with how little reading and investigating he's done.
In Prison he seemed way more careful about his reads, even taking into account the different context of how he joined the game. You see him ask around and gather evidence until he can make educated guesses. But in this game it's the opposite, he throws placeholder reads like rice at a wedding. There are exceptions in both cases (eg Zionite last game, Tubba here) but they are just that, exceptions.
Sloth,
— I don't need to speculate when I can use reading comprehension instead;
— What's a PBPA to you? Strictly a series of quoted & commented posts? Not that it's particularly relevant, I'm just curious;
— Generally speaking, do your thing. Maybe you'll prove my worries wrong.
Last is Whispy (ba-dum tsing). I liked his big post but agreement makes me biased.
Whispy, what do you mean re:shadow? What reaction are you talking about, how does it relate with my thoughts, and does it reflect well or poorly on him? Can you reformulate without the confusing double-negative?
Consistency/inconsistency is rarely AI imo
For sloth, that definitely ties into my basketball analogy. His way of interacting with the thread is much showier and hollower. Hes shooting long 2s and getting lost in transition
Think hes scum