Usually when people say im self resolving, it has more to do with flips than me getting nightkilled.
Its easy, im often right as town and never bus as scum
I do get nightkilled now though
I can’t remember when :/
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
thanks for the input. But it’s voting with someone and then saying “don’t townclear Tom just yet”
it’s something that pinged me, nothing to get debatey about.
why would that be pinging?
Johnny is really the only person i know that doesnt like voting with his scumreads.
For me, i realize my reads are fallible AND scum bus so i dont care at all until near deadline and even then only peripherally
Why would "voting with someone" and not townclearing me be related at all?
Because Voting with someone is not thinking they are scum? Why would you vote with someone you think is scum?
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It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
Also, I have never seen Grape this bouncy before in a game. I feel like per that older game, he is more sink his teeth in, even when he is wrong.
M’johnny! So sorry about last game <3
I believe I asked you a question in my first post.
You assumed I could be scum for lurking, yet I have never ever lurked in the history of this game. You should know that, so why rope me in with the lurkers?
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
Usually when people say im self resolving, it has more to do with flips than me getting nightkilled.
Its easy, im often right as town and never bus as scum
I do get nightkilled now though
I can’t remember when :/
people pushing me for dumb reasons is what keeps scum from killing me early so i can win in lylo.
Shoutout to you and sloth tbh
thanks for the input. But it’s voting with someone and then saying “don’t townclear Tom just yet”
it’s something that pinged me, nothing to get debatey about.
why would that be pinging?
Johnny is really the only person i know that doesnt like voting with his scumreads.
For me, i realize my reads are fallible AND scum bus so i dont care at all until near deadline and even then only peripherally
Why would "voting with someone" and not townclearing me be related at all?
Because Voting with someone is not thinking they are scum? Why would you vote with someone you think is scum?
i vote who i want to vote regardless of their wagons usually.
Usually when people say im self resolving, it has more to do with flips than me getting nightkilled.
Its easy, im often right as town and never bus as scum
I do get nightkilled now though
I can’t remember when :/
people pushing me for dumb reasons is what keeps scum from killing me early so i can win in lylo.
Shoutout to you and sloth tbh
*raises fist* bless
you are welcome.
HEY GUYS TOM IS SCUM. DONT KILL HIM TONIGHT K?
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It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
Anyway, look at us. The three amigos, back together again. Let’s chat. Tom, why jack?
Thoughts on axel to the both of you, and where the **** is shadow?
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It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
Also, I have never seen Grape this bouncy before in a game. I feel like per that older game, he is more sink his teeth in, even when he is wrong.
M’johnny! So sorry about last game <3
I believe I asked you a question in my first post.
You assumed I could be scum for lurking, yet I have never ever lurked in the history of this game. You should know that, so why rope me in with the lurkers?
Champs's rule. Nothing to do you with your slot personally. Comes in harder when it's harder to find wolfy people that are active posting.
tom, ignoring everything else, why are you struggling to post this game compared to the last?
not struggling.
Intentionally less
-_-
So you, axel, KJ, and ITF are going to be a pain in my ass, huh?
(obviously be comfortable)
@Rod: You know I don't like to use meta, but what if I said the last two games I remembered you were super calmish, what would you say (one of those games, I know you subbed out early because you got (I believe it was sun poisoning)
I think there is like 4-5 active players, about 4-5 people just popping in, and everyone else is hard lurking. This game is really annoying to find reads.
On principle, never going for today: Vaimes/ZDS/LW. Probably add Umani to that list as if he is a wolf, Ill have plenty to work with later. I have a soul read of Rhand as town for the time being.
Jack/Axel/ITF are on my short list. Of the three, I like axel the most out of this just on tone.
Grape feels weird, but not wolfy to me. Tubba is always wolfy to me.
I know I am missing half the game, but it's just like, I don't know what to work on. If I don't get yelled at for slacking off today, I'll try to find time to read some ISOs.
tom, ignoring everything else, why are you struggling to post this game compared to the last?
not struggling.
Intentionally less
-_-
So you, axel, KJ, and ITF are going to be a pain in my ass, huh?
(obviously be comfortable)
@Rod: You know I don't like to use meta, but what if I said the last two games I remembered you were super calmish, what would you say (one of those games, I know you subbed out early because you got (I believe it was sun poisoning)
I’d say you were off your rocker. I was tunneling you and Tom so hard last game
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Thank you for choosing
Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
tom, ignoring everything else, why are you struggling to post this game compared to the last?
not struggling.
Intentionally less
-_-
So you, axel, KJ, and ITF are going to be a pain in my ass, huh?
(obviously be comfortable)
@Rod: You know I don't like to use meta, but what if I said the last two games I remembered you were super calmish, what would you say (one of those games, I know you subbed out early because you got (I believe it was sun poisoning)
I’d say you were off your rocker. I was tunneling you and Tom so hard last game
tom, ignoring everything else, why are you struggling to post this game compared to the last?
not struggling.
Intentionally less
-_-
So you, axel, KJ, and ITF are going to be a pain in my ass, huh?
(obviously be comfortable)
@Rod: You know I don't like to use meta, but what if I said the last two games I remembered you were super calmish, what would you say (one of those games, I know you subbed out early because you got (I believe it was sun poisoning)
I’d say you were off your rocker. I was tunneling you and Tom so hard last game
Oh, I left off an important part off of that.
The last two games you were a WOLF.
bull*****. I literally claimed a scummates ability.
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
So you, axel, KJ, and ITF are going to be a pain in my ass, huh?
(obviously be comfortable)
@Rod: You know I don't like to use meta, but what if I said the last two games I remembered you were super calmish, what would you say (one of those games, I know you subbed out early because you got (I believe it was sun poisoning)
I’d say you were off your rocker. I was tunneling you and Tom so hard last game
Oh, I left off an important part off of that.
The last two games you were a WOLF.
bull*****. I literally claimed a scummates ability.
You were ridiculously calm in that shadow hosted game, when you dueled with town me.
And I thought you were calm in that game we wolfed together until you subbed out.
All right, I'm going to read some people. Prepare to be unimpressed.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I cant imagine theres a particularly good read of me to be had right now unless you really want to read into my motivation for taking a step back, but even that was largely decided pregame and youd have better luck reading <whatever eventually drags me back> (or lack thereof)
So you, axel, KJ, and ITF are going to be a pain in my ass, huh?
(obviously be comfortable)
I know I will be because I'm working my ass off. This week I'm working all 7 days. I'm also trying not to maintain such a high volume post style. Because its a lot of work that I can't keep up.
With regards to Tubba, I don't have a good way to read him for sure. I just take each game as it comes.
Do you have an opinion on ITF? It's been a while since I've played with him.
@Tubba: You say I'm not doing anything about Rhand. What makes you say that, given that I'm questioning him.
Do you think I'm scum as well?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
“And what exactly do you intend to do with it?” the drone Turminder Xuss asked. They were on a tall stump of rock at least as far downwind from Anaplian’s earlier clifftop vantage point as that had been from the city.
“I have no idea,” Anaplian admitted.
“Release him into the wild?” the drone suggested. “Send him back to the city?”
“What are you doing here, anyway?” she asked Xuss.
“We have been summoned,” the machine said. “We need to get to the Quonber; Jerle Batra awaits.” Its fields flashed a frosty blue. “I brought the module.”
“Batra wants to see me personally?” Anaplian frowned.
“I know. Not like him.” It dipped left-right in its equivalent of a shrug. “It.”
See I just spent 2 hours looking at 9 whole posts writing this, and of course there are no smoking guns, because this is freaking D1, but here you are.
On ITF: I don't particularly like his entrance post #270. He says three things here, and kind of undercuts himself twice: (1) Doesn't think Last is particularly scummy BUT (here is a scummy thing I would like him to explain. (2) I think ZDS made a decent point on Umami BUT (it is also weak and I don't agree with this other thing). And (3) Thinks ZDS is scumhunting and is not interested in lynching him (which is not quite the same thing as saying he thinks ZDS is Town).
It's a tiny bit strange that ZDS is the one he singles out here as not wanting to lynch when he apparently disagreed with both ZDS's main conclusions to that point (on LW and then on Umami)
He then will explain in #274 that it is actually ZDS's reversal on LW which is making him like ZDS - his re-evaluating of his reads. I don't think that's an especially good reason to town-read someone, but, YMMV.
He then votes Shadow for Shadow's very first post/vote of the game, saying it was the "scummiest" vote on LW. I think that represented the third vote on Shadow (Vaimes, Rhand, ITF). Doesn't say what he felt was scummy about it, except that he's saying he now thinks LW is likely Town - ergo, vote the "scummiest" vote against the person you think is Town. I do not know who else may have been voting for LW and why they said they were (except ZDS did at one point, and ITF did not think that was scummy).
He then indicates willingness to follow a wagon onto Tubba. Which is...okay? as a thing to throw out there, but would maybe be better with some explanation.
#415 he defends himself from accusations he's been lazy by basically admitting it, but saying expressing himself is exhausting and time consuming and he is starting to doubt he can even do it? Which is kind of a
He also further attempts to explain his Town-read on ZDS by saying it was not just the fact that ZDS re-evaluated his reads, but it was the way that ZDS changed his mind that looked Townie, and also, he thinks he's got a meta read on ZDS because in another game he thought ZDS was scum, but ZDS feels different this game.
I feel like the meta reads would be a lot more useful if they were for something more than a player "feeling" different. Like, what's different?
He then makes the same kind of reverse meta read on Jakrito, saying he felt Jack was obv-Town in that other game, but doesn't have the same feeling here. (I don't think he's said anything about Jackrito before this). He appears to be responding to a few players saying they thought Jack was Town, and Jack saying no one should be Town-reading him at this point because he hasn't done anything.
That's it. There's nothing that stands out to me as a particularly Townie post, and a few posts I could easily see coming from scum. I get the sense he's a new player, which muddies things a bit, but, in the interests of pushing things forward, this seems like a fine place to be atm
Vote: ITF
Still going to be looking at other people, but that's all I'm doing right now.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I mean, I think it would make ZDS less likely to be scum - but in no way would that be definitive.
Also, to what degree do you think ITF is forcing his reads?
He hasn't given all that many reads. The vote on Shadow wasn't "forced" so much as it was "lazy" (for which he was called out). ZDS feels a bit like he's struggling to justify the initial assertion and keeps re-visiting it. For other people, he's giving a lot of reads based on the feels, which, again, might be characterized as lazy more than "forced".
Could be someone who's just overwhelmed by it all, I suppose, but I don't feel like - in this game so far - there's been anything to get overwhelmed by.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I feel like saying “I’m with axel” and then voting the same as axel. And then getting on about how we shouldn’t townclear people is a little contradictory.
ya this can't be a real read
her vote was clearly RVS, there is no reason why she would need to explicitly say she towns reads the person she is following
especially since half the time people just vote who they read as scum, without even thinking about who is on the train
its reachy
but you don't think it really says much if I remember (but something to look into), so then its just mudslinging?
so what exactly does this say about Axel/Umami?
Umami/Rodemy maybe?
I feel like saying “I’m with axel” and then voting the same as axel. And then getting on about how we shouldn’t townclear people is a little contradictory.
but is this wolfy?
and other stuff just don't really feel like they need to be here
On ITF: I don't particularly like his entrance post #270. He says three things here, and kind of undercuts himself twice: (1) Doesn't think Last is particularly scummy BUT (here is a scummy thing I would like him to explain. (2) I think ZDS made a decent point on Umami BUT (it is also weak and I don't agree with this other thing). And (3) Thinks ZDS is scumhunting and is not interested in lynching him (which is not quite the same thing as saying he thinks ZDS is Town).
this is probably the strongest evidence of wolf!ITF, given the fact that he is already hedging on both worlds for no reason
his re-evaluating of his reads. I don't think that's an especially good reason to town-read someone, but, YMMV.
I think it is?
ok ya I can see it
their thoughts on Jack are just as bad, his thoughts don't actually say much
but it was the way that ZDS changed his mind that looked Townie
if you read Prisoners, I still agree this is a good reason to see ZDS as town, but definitely not strong
feels like an afterthought to explain a read, that was probably just TMI
I feel like saying “I’m with axel” and then voting the same as axel. And then getting on about how we shouldn’t townclear people is a little contradictory.
ya this can't be a real read
her vote was clearly RVS, there is no reason why she would need to explicitly say she towns reads the person she is following
especially since half the time people just vote who they read as scum, without even thinking about who is on the train
its reachy
but you don't think it really says much if I remember (but something to look into), so then its just mudslinging?
so what exactly does this say about Axel/Umami?
Umami/Rodemy maybe?
vote: Rodemy
@ITF
why haven't you voted yet?
honestly idk if that makes sense yet
what.
I never called it a read I just said it was interesting. I’m voting axel btw, and umami isn’t super scum just that was a little contradictory to me.
where did I say I was scumreading her?
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
So you, axel, KJ, and ITF are going to be a pain in my ass, huh?
(obviously be comfortable)
I know I will be because I'm working my ass off. This week I'm working all 7 days. I'm also trying not to maintain such a high volume post style. Because its a lot of work that I can't keep up.
With regards to Tubba, I don't have a good way to read him for sure. I just take each game as it comes.
Do you have an opinion on ITF? It's been a while since I've played with him.
@Tubba: You say I'm not doing anything about Rhand. What makes you say that, given that I'm questioning him.
Do you think I'm scum as well?
I meant Rhand about you. He says that he thinks you may have rolled scum, but that he’s not interested in pushing you for raisins. Then he says he doesn’t have any good reads and parks a vote on ITF, but without much in the way of raisins.
I can’t remember when :/
@KJ I just wolf read him every game. Even last game I said I'd defer to other people and ended up putting him in PoE until Sloth flipped.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I asked you first.
Because Voting with someone is not thinking they are scum? Why would you vote with someone you think is scum?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
M’johnny! So sorry about last game <3
I believe I asked you a question in my first post.
You assumed I could be scum for lurking, yet I have never ever lurked in the history of this game. You should know that, so why rope me in with the lurkers?
Shoutout to you and sloth tbh
Intentionally less
*raises fist* bless
you are welcome.
HEY GUYS TOM IS SCUM. DONT KILL HIM TONIGHT K?
Anyway, look at us. The three amigos, back together again. Let’s chat. Tom, why jack?
Thoughts on axel to the both of you, and where the **** is shadow?
Champs's rule. Nothing to do you with your slot personally. Comes in harder when it's harder to find wolfy people that are active posting.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
-_-
So you, axel, KJ, and ITF are going to be a pain in my ass, huh?
(obviously be comfortable)
@Rod: You know I don't like to use meta, but what if I said the last two games I remembered you were super calmish, what would you say (one of those games, I know you subbed out early because you got (I believe it was sun poisoning)
The GJ way path to no lynching:
On principle, never going for today: Vaimes/ZDS/LW. Probably add Umani to that list as if he is a wolf, Ill have plenty to work with later. I have a soul read of Rhand as town for the time being.
Jack/Axel/ITF are on my short list. Of the three, I like axel the most out of this just on tone.
Grape feels weird, but not wolfy to me. Tubba is always wolfy to me.
I know I am missing half the game, but it's just like, I don't know what to work on. If I don't get yelled at for slacking off today, I'll try to find time to read some ISOs.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I’d say you were off your rocker. I was tunneling you and Tom so hard last game
Oh, I left off an important part off of that.
The last two games you were a WOLF.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Not that thats saying much
bull*****. I literally claimed a scummates ability.
toooooo
got it. So read vaimes progression on you and tell me what you think?
Also thoughts on axel.
I snorted.
You were ridiculously calm in that shadow hosted game, when you dueled with town me.
And I thought you were calm in that game we wolfed together until you subbed out.
Am I just misremembering?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
This is why I don't use meta, and judge each game independently.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Go on. Answer my question
I’m townreading tom because I feel like it. [redacted] makes me doubt it a little bit but it’s not as if there isn’t plenty of time to walk it back.
If you want specifics, I don’t have any.
With regards to Tubba, I don't have a good way to read him for sure. I just take each game as it comes.
Do you have an opinion on ITF? It's been a while since I've played with him.
@Tubba: You say I'm not doing anything about Rhand. What makes you say that, given that I'm questioning him.
Do you think I'm scum as well?
“I have no idea,” Anaplian admitted.
“Release him into the wild?” the drone suggested. “Send him back to the city?”
“What are you doing here, anyway?” she asked Xuss.
“We have been summoned,” the machine said. “We need to get to the Quonber; Jerle Batra awaits.” Its fields flashed a frosty blue. “I brought the module.”
“Batra wants to see me personally?” Anaplian frowned.
“I know. Not like him.” It dipped left-right in its equivalent of a shrug. “It.”
ITF - 3 (Killjoy, ZeDorkSlipeur, Rhand)
Lastwhisper - 2 (shadowlancerx, Tubba Fett)
Tubba Fett - 2 (Vaimes, Umami)
Jackrito - 2 (Grapefruit21, tomsloger)
Umami - 1 (Jackrito)
Grapefruit21 - 1 (Axelrod)
Not Voting - 2 (M plus 7, ITF)
With 16 alive, it takes 9 to achieve a majority. Day 1 ends at 11:59:59 PM EDT on 22 April 2020.
Vote Count 1.1
Vote Count 1.2
Vote Count 1.3
Vote Count 1.4
Vote Count 1.5
If your vote is uncounted and I didn't say why, please PM me or DM me on Discord so I can investigate.
On ITF: I don't particularly like his entrance post #270. He says three things here, and kind of undercuts himself twice: (1) Doesn't think Last is particularly scummy BUT (here is a scummy thing I would like him to explain. (2) I think ZDS made a decent point on Umami BUT (it is also weak and I don't agree with this other thing). And (3) Thinks ZDS is scumhunting and is not interested in lynching him (which is not quite the same thing as saying he thinks ZDS is Town).
It's a tiny bit strange that ZDS is the one he singles out here as not wanting to lynch when he apparently disagreed with both ZDS's main conclusions to that point (on LW and then on Umami)
He then will explain in #274 that it is actually ZDS's reversal on LW which is making him like ZDS - his re-evaluating of his reads. I don't think that's an especially good reason to town-read someone, but, YMMV.
He then votes Shadow for Shadow's very first post/vote of the game, saying it was the "scummiest" vote on LW. I think that represented the third vote on Shadow (Vaimes, Rhand, ITF). Doesn't say what he felt was scummy about it, except that he's saying he now thinks LW is likely Town - ergo, vote the "scummiest" vote against the person you think is Town. I do not know who else may have been voting for LW and why they said they were (except ZDS did at one point, and ITF did not think that was scummy).
He then indicates willingness to follow a wagon onto Tubba. Which is...okay? as a thing to throw out there, but would maybe be better with some explanation.
#415 he defends himself from accusations he's been lazy by basically admitting it, but saying expressing himself is exhausting and time consuming and he is starting to doubt he can even do it? Which is kind of a
He also further attempts to explain his Town-read on ZDS by saying it was not just the fact that ZDS re-evaluated his reads, but it was the way that ZDS changed his mind that looked Townie, and also, he thinks he's got a meta read on ZDS because in another game he thought ZDS was scum, but ZDS feels different this game.
I feel like the meta reads would be a lot more useful if they were for something more than a player "feeling" different. Like, what's different?
He then makes the same kind of reverse meta read on Jakrito, saying he felt Jack was obv-Town in that other game, but doesn't have the same feeling here. (I don't think he's said anything about Jackrito before this). He appears to be responding to a few players saying they thought Jack was Town, and Jack saying no one should be Town-reading him at this point because he hasn't done anything.
That's it. There's nothing that stands out to me as a particularly Townie post, and a few posts I could easily see coming from scum. I get the sense he's a new player, which muddies things a bit, but, in the interests of pushing things forward, this seems like a fine place to be atm
Vote: ITF
Still going to be looking at other people, but that's all I'm doing right now.
Also, to what degree do you think ITF is forcing his reads?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I mean, I think it would make ZDS less likely to be scum - but in no way would that be definitive.
He hasn't given all that many reads. The vote on Shadow wasn't "forced" so much as it was "lazy" (for which he was called out). ZDS feels a bit like he's struggling to justify the initial assertion and keeps re-visiting it. For other people, he's giving a lot of reads based on the feels, which, again, might be characterized as lazy more than "forced".
Could be someone who's just overwhelmed by it all, I suppose, but I don't feel like - in this game so far - there's been anything to get overwhelmed by.
some
consider me unimpressed
someone motivate me to do something
ya this can't be a real read
her vote was clearly RVS, there is no reason why she would need to explicitly say she towns reads the person she is following
especially since half the time people just vote who they read as scum, without even thinking about who is on the train
its reachy
but you don't think it really says much if I remember (but something to look into), so then its just mudslinging?
so what exactly does this say about Axel/Umami?
Umami/Rodemy maybe?
vote: Rodemy
@ITF
why haven't you voted yet?
honestly idk if that makes sense yet
but is this wolfy?
and other stuff just don't really feel like they need to be here
this is probably the strongest evidence of wolf!ITF, given the fact that he is already hedging on both worlds for no reason
I think it is?
ok ya I can see it
their thoughts on Jack are just as bad, his thoughts don't actually say much
if you read Prisoners, I still agree this is a good reason to see ZDS as town, but definitely not strong
feels like an afterthought to explain a read, that was probably just TMI
vote: ITF
you aren’t reading.
My question was about your take on his tubba vote.
Read my first post please.
ask me anything
what.
I never called it a read I just said it was interesting. I’m voting axel btw, and umami isn’t super scum just that was a little contradictory to me.
where did I say I was scumreading her?
Where did I say you were scum reading her?
Axel's last popin was wolfy. I suddenly feel weird about this wagon.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I meant Rhand about you. He says that he thinks you may have rolled scum, but that he’s not interested in pushing you for raisins. Then he says he doesn’t have any good reads and parks a vote on ITF, but without much in the way of raisins.
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I also think the ITF wagon is fine.