Also, Last and Tubba are nigh-conf!Town at this point. Both were aware of my PR last Night and if they were scum they would have certainly told their teammates. I don't see them letting scum waste a shot on me just to see if I was lying. This can be revisited later, but no interest on them should be had toDay.
Happy Day 2, you loser.
Counterpoint: if one of them is scum, they shot you to clear themselves. That's 100% worth potentially losing a kill imo.
Also, Last and Tubba are nigh-conf!Town at this point. Both were aware of my PR last Night and if they were scum they would have certainly told their teammates. I don't see them letting scum waste a shot on me just to see if I was lying. This can be revisited later, but no interest on them should be had toDay.
Happy Day 2, you loser.
Counterpoint: if one of them is scum, they shot you to clear themselves. That's 100% worth potentially losing a kill imo.
maybe tomorrow, and if I was wolf, I could see myself doing that
Ok so. Nonzero chance i get nightkilled. Depending on worlds.
So this is the legacy i wish to leave:
A. Grapefuit21
A. Tomsloger
A. YWFMLF
B. Gentleman Johnny
B. Killjoy
B. Zionite
C. Lastwhisper
C. Slothful
C. Tubba Fett
D. Jackrito
D. KittyCupCake
D. ZeDorkSlipeur
E. FlargBlarg
E. Rhand
E. Vaimes
i do not actually wish to leave a legacy on grape, ywf, jack, kcc, zds, flarg, rhand, or vaimes. Thats over half the game that, if im dead, just read for yourself.
Not saying i dont have opinions, but theyre contradictory/not that strong/too tied up in other things/blah
~~~~~
Everything ive said about KJ stands. Its my most confident read, might compile my whole case in one place if it looks like hes weaseling out of the lynch, but not here.
But even with that confidence and that "KJ is scum" perspective, last has actively felt like scumlast unable to bring himself to push anyone...
Overarching point is I think Last's (lack of) read on KJ is disingenuous regardless of his alignment. I see 4 options here:
>scumlast TMIing townkj
>scumlast forcing a defense of partnerkj
>townlast rebelling against the read because he hates when im right
>townlast... actually having a strong townread of KJ that hes choosing not to say?
I dont believe in the fourth one. Perhaps yall will have better luck choosing between the other 3
~~~~~~~
Tubba is town regardless of KJ flip. Some of this is mindmeld because his push on KJ was good and before it was cool.
But if KJ flips scum you dont need me to tell you this. In the event hes town, still dont touch my tubba.
His <impact to postcount ratio> and level of background thinking are very positive signs. Dont let the low activity fool you.
Gentleman johnny is the anti-tubba. He has way more posts than you think because hes done ****-all with them. I think i just accidentally defended grape when im just sticking him back in null because gj was such a better example of what terraine was attacking grape for...
Dudes probably scum.
Sloth might need the opposite caveat as tubba. Sure he probably spent most of the day defending scumkilljoy without townreading him. But the way he went about it was so... solvey. Defense to make ME justify myself. Still kind of prodding at KJ. Looking at zion around the kj wagon. Etc.
~~~~~~~
Zion i still dont want my legacy to be an overarching townread. The post i made when his wagon was first popping up about shaking off the rust was very much a direct response to the reasons he was being pushed at the time. Which i maintain were bad.
But thats not a be all end all, its an establishing point. So if you want my help reading him, start from there and look at what the tinman has done since he got his joints moving correctly and picked up some WD-40 in the form of <a wagon on himself to analyze> and perhaps some flips.
Hes a player whos alignment should shibe through more and more as the game goes on.
Dont be like tom and let your read stagnate.
ok im here before catching up on today and whatever rereading i do to start fixing my perspective on this gamestate.
But going over the kj wagon in my head a little.
Last definitely had the worst defense of him. Because it was literally nothing. Like, flarg has a stupid aversion to meta on principal. Last doesnt have that.
A few people just didnt like the case but (unlike last) that didnt suddenly make him a strong townread.
But as ive said it can easily be a fake read coming from townlast too. But i do think townlast usually hammers when he said he would...
Theres also a group that positioned themselves like "yes this can die because tom said so" with some other agendas.
Speaking here mainly of GJ and rhand, but grape, zion and vaimes with some of it too. Specifically gj made sure that any blowback on his kj push would land on me, which felt iffy at the time and worse with flip.
Rhand didnt push kj or me at all really but played up <something dichotomous>
I think my last thought from kj wagon is if there werent a bunch of scum there already, one would want to push it that last little bit after his claim. So im, like, slightly sus on flarg/kcc but not in any concrete way just a thing to think on
if you could even call it a defense, it was more like I just knew as much as I could without having the TMI knowledge, but not enough care, and probably a little fear of being wrong to actively push it
so here we are
My intent was never to hammer, it was to see who would put him in hammer range, as for what that says about Rhand idk yet, plus Slothful wanted to do his due diligence, so ya
town!Last does hammer there in probably some timelines, but he didnt here, ohh well
Specifically gj made sure that any blowback on his kj push would land on me, which felt iffy at the time and worse with flip
Quote from Gentleman Backstabbed Johnny »
I also stand by my tom comment from yesterday. Only way I drop him lower is if ZIon flips wolf.
Quote from NotsoGentleman Johnny »
I don't really recall you running at players this hard out of nowhere as wolf. At least not as often as a wolf.....
If KJ flips villager, and ZIonite flips wolf, I should either be thrown in the river, or ignored for the rest of the game. I'll concede that.
Quote from tomwhocantreadGJifhislifedependedonit »
Specifically gj made sure that any blowback on his kj push would land on me
Quote from GentlemanHopeThePointisClearJohnny »
As far as tom goes. I would only be suspicious of him for the same reason you should be suspicious of me: In wolf Zionite world. Neither me nor tom as wolves would charge on KJ (if he were town) if Zionite was a town player already getting strung up. Why draw the attention and blow all that credit for a town mislynch if the game was already on town mislynch?
I made it all the way through ZDS walls this time.
I think pretty much all the "avoiding confrontation" exhibits are pretty useless to me without meta (loltom) because i can definitely see that being playstyle, but ill say if it is playstyle its a fairly convenient one for scum (yes yes, pot>kettle)
But the opportunism bits are solid and ZDS is very right that flarg definitely doesnt want to create the change he claims to want in the thread.
Dont think reading that changed my feelings on flarg really, but i might like the trajectory from ZDS.
And i kinda felt ok about him towards eod. His posts kinda sucked then but they did feel like a sucky towny that didnt know what was going on...
I would still like to hear him justify that kj defense though because it was exceptionally inaccurate...but meh
if you could even call it a defense, it was more like I just knew as much as I could without having the TMI knowledge, but not enough care, and probably a little fear of being wrong to actively push it
so here we are
My intent was never to hammer, it was to see who would put him in hammer range, as for what that says about Rhand idk yet, plus Slothful wanted to do his due diligence, so ya
town!Last does hammer there in probably some timelines, but he didnt here, ohh well
yeah thats exactly it
By far the occams razor for your play around KJ yesterday was knowing he was town but having no way to justify it.
Thats even before applying your wolf meta lol.
Fair play on reaction testing though. Ill drop that either way
Hi johnny. I see you.
Not talking about you pushing me at all just avoiding blame. Passing the buck to flipping zion first is still avoiding blame and my point stands.
Hi johnny. I see you.
Not talking about you pushing me at all just avoiding blame. Passing the buck to flipping zion first is still avoiding blame and my point stands.
I can't tell if you are being purposefully deceitful, or unintentionally ignoring chunks of posts. I set the anti Zionite shove. If Zionite flips wolf, I should take the full ******* blame for it. And no, you didn't say push, you said setting you up for the fall....as I adamantly call you town, with only some slight suspicioun for a flip that would be 10 times worse for me than for you. YOu didn't try to stop ZIonite, I did. I also for the time being have no interest in pursuing that wagon. I wouldn't hate if Zionite got vigged, but not really where I want to be right now. I am somewhere in the KCC/Vaimes world with some scrutiny towards ZDS (but that world gets weird as I don't see KCC/ZDS wolves together, not just for the cellmate schtick)
I made it no secret that I shamelessly sheeped you on KJ. I also wasn't a fan of KJ before your push so there. Zio I felt was getting pushed mostly because people were unhappy he was "waiting". If he's a wolf, I am hard core his buddy. I don't love the KJ lynch per the claim, but that is what it is. You are either weaving a tall tale or just tomming off, but your interpretation of said sheep makes no sense.
As far as not doing anything, I have been hunting and will continue to do so. Your attack on me is strange, and you continue to prove that you have absolutely no ability to read me and should humbly defer. If you need me to be more town meta, I could just rage until I get thrown out (I AM JOKING SHADOW DONT KICK ME).
So to sum up, your summary of my motivations seem really really intricate. You have played wolf with me, you know I don't get anywhere near that level of fanciness, and asserting it to me is at best, a weird look at a worse, a wolfy one. Take of that what you will but anyone who has ever played wolf with me will back up that I am just a simple town looking wolf whose single trick (albeit, a relatively strong one) is the ability to have strong overlapping ranges, and tough to read.
Hi johnny. I see you.
Not talking about you pushing me at all just avoiding blame. Passing the buck to flipping zion first is still avoiding blame and my point stands.
Blame me all you want. I can argue I would have switched to Zio > KJ unless I wanted to ******* throw my back out to try and CFD KCC. The problem with your theory here is that implies I want to flip zionite first. Spoiler: I don't.
It seems statistically unlikely anyway, but cell block D definitely doesnt have more than one scum. They entered on similar pages but with vastly different levels of urgency and flavors.
Something off about sloth today. Happy to be alive when hes bulletproof could be something but its probably NAI.
But him and i spent so much time talking about my read day 1 and he started agreeing with some points and maybe felt like he had some understanding of what i was putting out there and yeah
But today its just "tom was wrong kill it"?
Which
I did expect but not from him?
Thinking about D made me want to look at the others.
A. Grapefuit21
A. Tomsloger
A. YWFMLF
B. Gentleman Johnny
B. Killjoy
B. Zionite
C. Lastwhisper
C. Slothful
C. Tubba Fett
D. Jackrito
D. KittyCupCake
D. ZeDorkSlipeur
E. FlargBlarg
E. Rhand
E. Vaimes
If there was 1 in each cell...
Ywf/gj/last/kcc/rhand
Thats not teambuilding that would be dumb thats in a vacuum
E seems shadiest but just by virtue of having no one townie in it. B if youd asked me before kj flip...
D remains actively discordant. None of C seem to agree on anything either?
Most likely all-town group... probably mine, C, or D.
If i could kill a group outright...
Well B kills my current vote and reveals zions alignment that feels like the best move.
But i might choose E those flips almost would have to break this ***** open
Re Flarg's #1540 Let's agree that we are going on a loop at this point, both of us are repeating the same arguments. Although:
Quote from FlargBlarg »
I led the horses to water, but it's not my fault they didn't drink.
Is such a convenient excuse to absolve yourself of responsibility for not mattering. You can't make the horses drink, but you sure can make some horse*****.
From now on, I want you to stop focusing on defending yourself, especially if all you are going to do is selectively peck at the parts you can answer with generic responses such as "it's (not) my style".
Instead, please provide content (like you've promised twice you would do, re:GJ) and do the scumhunting you say you were so focused on yesterDay. Prove to me and to the rest of the town that I'm wrong in saying all you do is protect your ass and make safe, convenient choices that don't truly put you at risk. So far your play toDay has been doing the opposite of proving that (but I don't know how much time you are spending on the game per session so maybe it's reasonable that you have done nothing but defend yourself).
Succeed and I'll look elsewhere. Fail or do a crap job and I'll have your head on a silver platter. No pressure intended.
Re Vaimes's #1550 Were you trying to accomplish anything with your vote on me? If you like what the case on me is doing, why not keep your vote to maintain the pressure?
---
I know my case on Flarg is "over the top" (as Jack put it). It's excessively long and long-winded, it lacks impact, it lacks structure, and I'm sure many of you didn't actually read it (maybe skimmed through it at most). I wrote it in a rush in a couple hours (and most of that was rereading him and fetching links).
To summarise my issues with him and why he has a scum mindset, FlargBlarg has been acting as a "voice of reason", and that makes his posts look fine from a distance. But if you break past the shell of generically reasonable stances and explanations, you will find nearly all of his posts (with too few exceptions) are hollow. In fact, you could remove all of his posts and votes and absolutely nothing would change.
That kind of posting does not come from someone more interested in scumhunting than in self-preservation, it comes from someone whose primary objective is to always be able to explain away anything they did. I know from experience in having played like this as scum how easy it is to get away with being astonishingly scummy if you have a logical, reasonable explanation for everything. It's an exploit of the common biases towards thinking logical = right and reasonable = good/town.
Keep that in mind when reading Flarg's past and future posts, and don't hesitate to vote him at any time.
(Also if Flarg flips scum I'll have to look back at everyone who went "yeah I kinda agree, but let's look elsewhere")
---
I assume KCC is pissed at me because she thinks she gave an excellent defense of Flarg in our Night chat and I'm going "lalala, can't hear you". (I think her defense of Flarg isn't that good, but I want her to be the one to post it before I say why I'm not convinced by it, to avoid messing up first impressions.)
@Rhand
I'm not really shading you, but can we talk about what you liked about Flarg?
We chatted in realtime, and the way he posted quickly and carefree would be extremely hard to fake as scum.
he didn't pause to think when I asked him stuff about players.
I reread through KCC's iso, and am really annoyed. Early game, I definitely get a townie vibe. It isn't really towards the end of day 1 beginning of day 2 I start to have a problem with the slot. Still leaning wolf on it, but not sure if I want to hard commit to this. My biggest problem is I don't like the handling of her back and forth with KJ and Zionite, the hammer post tonewise comes off as super insincere.
Quote from KCC »
I usually read you through your process. Your questions, your theories, your poking. The way you bounce around through your reads isn't always obvious to everyone, especially before you started focusing on cleaning up your presentation, but I can usually follow along with it and track your mindset
I haven't been able to do that here, because you just aren't scum hunting. I waited past potential early game silliness, past you being busy, and it's still not there.
The closest you got was a readlist, where you avoided directly omgusing Tom, but just shaded the rest of your wagon as containing some amount of scum.
You say grape and I are your strongest scum reads, but you're not doing anything with it. Your read on me is just an AtE to make me feel bad for not townreading you. Which, yeah, okay, was pretty effective for a while. And maybe I'm underestimating how much Watchmen affected you, but I don't feel like you believe that read
If I'm wrong, I'm sorry I couldn't get there through whatever the hell it is you think you're doing this game
Like even the bolded seems like she knows she is about to get a town player, but it is all his fault. Pontius Pilate at least looked disgusted when he washed his hands of the situation. I also don't really buy her strongest wolf read just being put on the backburner, especially when it can shed light on some other reads. Why are his big posts not attempts to hunt, or analyze his big posts. Or hell, explain more why you think ZDS is wolfy and wolfy enough to not justify trying to get people to back Zionite as a lynch. He doesn't magically change roles just because he is on holiday.
Vaimes continues to screw around in the back, doing nothing and skimming off the top. (not still mad about that). Rhand/Tubba I am waiting to see something from. ZDS I want to see continue. Flarg has been lackluster as of late.
Anyone not mentioned, I don't super care about or don't think you are a strong wolf read. Happy hunting.
Like even the bolded seems like she knows she is about to get a town player, but it is all his fault. Pontius Pilate at least looked disgusted when he washed his hands of the situation.
KCC is your top scum, why does it feel like youre just musing into the wind about her zds push?
Musing into the wind implies I am talking to myself and have no interest in convincing people. I am putting forward my points, showing my issues, and that's all I can do right now. No one apart from you is posting. If everyone else shows, browses over my points, I will start asking people directly.
What's your current read on KCC vs Zionite, ignoring my own alignment for the time being?
I think zion is town and kcc might be a wolf, but kj flipping town pushes both those reads towards the middle *just a little bit*
Though i dont think thats a versus. In that their alignments arent really tied together in my head.
I don't disagree. They could be V/V. I added the ignore me part because I feel like my alignment changes your view on Zionite, but I think I mixed it up in my mind. Me being town doesn't really effect your read of Zio (I assume). Me being a wolf does.
I just meant vs as in, KCC is wolf reading him, Zionite doesn't seem to be a huge fan from a quick skim (not 100% sure if ZIonite is still reading KCC as a wolf).
I have a slight point of paranoia of Zionite per a note, but I need to hear a response from him. The other people in my wolf reads are in a weird spot. I need to look at Flarg a bit more, and I think I will turn on Rhand if nothing changes today.
REally unimpressed with Rhand. Only post he looks like he is actively solving was that color broken post for Flarg against ZDS, and even that, I don't agree with that much. Also, the Zionite read disappeared out of nowhere.
Granted the contradiction was minor (maybe Vaimes just likes to be thorough), but in my opinion (1) Flarg should still have pushed harder on Vaimes for that response. He didn't, using lexical confusion about the meaning of "endgame" as an excuse to jump off right away. I don't know how much sense that confusion makes since (2) the game ends when it ends, not when we arbitrarily pick three players and go home; if Flarg's case really was based on assuming Vaimes's plan would end the game then it was completely illogical (unless Flarg knew killing everyone except the cell with him and Vaimes would end the game and had a massive slip up, but that's crude speculation at this point). What matters here is that when faced with the prospect of battling it out with a player who is making it clear they will not pull any punch, FlargBlarg ran away. That's Exhibit #1 of FlargBlarg avoiding confrontation.
This is a stretch.
(1) What are you basing this statement on? Do you have experience on Flarg's meta? Is there another reason beyond "this is what I would have done"?
(2) I don't understand what you're saying here? Break it down for me, please.
(3) What is your read on Vaimes, exactly?
Now, had Flarg merely barned or repeated the arguments already made by Rhand and Slothful, I would have seen nothing wrong with his voted. But here comes the second thing I want to point out: he didn't. Instead he made an extremely weak argument about Zionite not finding scum among the then-active players (at a time when there weren't that many of them, and it therefore wouldn't be weird to town-read or null-read them all; also keep that argument in mind, we will come back to it later).
Zion... less so. He complains about wanting stuff to do and betting there's Scum in the inactives, but he doesn't do anything other than kind of idly complain they're not here. Why not hunt in the actives? Surely he can't townread every active player. Strikes me more as Scum unwilling to start a wagon of their own and trying to shadecast "the inactives" so that they have broad options to move later.
Interesting. I actually very much disagree that the argument is weak (much less extremely, why that word?), it's actually valid - even more so if you take into account Z's future actions and moves following it.
However, this is something I also noticed and brought up for essentially the same reasons (though I did not disclose these to the thread) + possible partner, as seen here:
Zion... less so. He complains about wanting stuff to do and betting there's Scum in the inactives, but he doesn't do anything other than kind of idly complain they're not here. Why not hunt in the actives? Surely he can't townread every active player. Strikes me more as Scum unwilling to start a wagon of their own and trying to shadecast "the inactives" so that they have broad options to move later.
Heh. Possible ping here.
On me or Zion? Either way, why?
On you. From a certain angle, it comes across as opportunistic/bussy.
Only from a certain angle, though, I'm just drawing attention to it for myself later. Don't mind me.
lol he hasn't even flipped yet and you're telling me it's bussy? if he does actually flip Scum we should definitely come back here - I think this post is probably indicative of you already knowing he's Scum in that case
I don't really get in what world putting a guy to 3 votes and L-5 is opportunistic either. Like, yeah, I would like this game to move forward instead of having totally stagnant 2 vote wagons, and he's scummy, so it's the most useful place I can vote.
What is your opinion of his response?
I have my own, press me on it after you answer and let's compare notes.
...but quickly enough people get distracted and lose interest in Zionite; and it's certainly not FlargBlarg who will dare to remind them he exists. In fact, even when given a very good opportunity to push, he ignores it; see #518 which followed, and completely ignored, Jackrito wall-vote in #501.
Wait a minute, that's what you think is weird about #518?
...Read it again.
Though to your point: This is another reach; I'm not sure what you're expecting him to do re: Jackrito. Congratulate him on voting his scumread?
Also not seeing #939 as bad, if anything it's probably the best post he had D1, especially the admission he just didn't want to re-read.
That's Exhibit #3 of FlargBlarg avoiding confrontation (and it's bad even if I assume he's not an aggressive player).
Talk through this more: I agree he did not take a proper stance, but as you enumerated thoroughly, he spent the span of 300 posts loudly arguing with Tom's case. What's the benefit as scum?
This ******* case. I mentioned on an earlier post that it didn't look great and that I wanted to do a deep dive.
Upon doing that, it's not as bad as the first impression indicated but far too much of it is extremely circumstantial assumption.
What catches my attention the most is that even though I also have Flarg as potential scum (not as strong, clearly), there's very little common ground between your case and my notes, Dork. I don't get how a lot of what you saw is tremendously (correct me if this is the wrong word to use) scummy; and I especially don't get how certain things didn't get mentioned by you.
I wanna say the extreme effort in these posts means probable town? But the content, assuming omissions were intentional...I'll look back on this with the benefit of more time.
I hate everything about Rhand's #1356. 1) Tom's purity doesn't make him right, 2) Why the need to be on the lynch wagon?
I don't mind KCC's hammer.
Not fond of Slothful's #1433, it's too easy to go after the main proponent of a town-lynch-wagon and what has tom's done that was scummy besides maybe that? I need to re-read (urgggg) Slothful to see his progression on tom, from ISOing his last few posts I don't see an obvious attack.
For the record, that is not what I'm doing - do you have thoughts on Tom? I could use a sounding board.
Agreed on Rhand.
Question, do you have any other reads in general beyond Flarg? Any thoughts on partners?
Re Slothful "Are you saying that because it's too late for a counterwagon you're not going to tell us what you think?"
Yes.
Lol. I wasn't going to bring this up but for all your comments about "how badly the town needs your guidance" and you keeping things close to chest, your big reveal was "Flarg is scum"? The guy that most of us were already giving the shifty eye and even discussed the possibility of CFD? ******* really?
Sloth
Jack
YMV
tom
Zion
LW
ZDS
Tubba
Flarg
Vaimes
Rhand
KCC
God damn, SOMEONE INTERACT WITH ME
I'm trying to catch up cause I might not be around much for the next few days, but sure, ask me questions and I'll try to answer them.
Quick question then: Look at Rhand/KCC's end of day transition from Zion to ZDS. Do you agree with me that their movement and almost complete dropping of ZIon? (KCC at least said that she doesn't want to go for Zion today because of the v/la).
Well that is one of my scum reads I was going to push today gone, I had a long discussion last night with my cellmates and this feels right to me.
vote: FlargBlarg
KKC really disagrees with me on this though, also I feel better about ZDS after night discussion, I still think chance he is scum but not as much as I did yesterday.
Talk to me about ZDS: What made you feel better about him exactly?
Also, you (clearly) side with him over KC. What about KC's arguments didn't pan?
Honestly KCC’s play seems sketchy as hell on a reread. She does…very little unless someone comes for her. This post right here sums it all up kinda perfectly.
I'm not exactly scumreading kj, I haven't seen enough to make a confident read one way or the other. But if we absolutely need a counter wagon, that's one of the places I'd like seeing pressure
I'm seeing things that could be from being scum, but nothing yet I couldn't see reasonable town explanations for
This is pretty obviously where I am if you're reading my posts. Maybe closer to: KJ might be a wolf, but I could still see him as town, and am far more confident on Zion
I'm waiting until I see something that gives me a stronger read one way or the other, I'm still going over his read list atm
Same place I was 2 days ago. Also not thrilled that he's disappeared while KJ has gained attention
I mean she says it herself Zion is MIA with the KJ wagon…she’s at best mildly suspicious and hedging her bets with KJ but is doing nothing beyond voting him. Everything is I have no REAL feeling on KJ! I’m good on lynching him though.
Oh, is that the point of the game? Thank you so much, I've been wondering that for years.
Here, I'll make this simpler: I think there's more reasonable town explanations for kjs play than for zions so far. Hence my vote being where it is
I don't need to actively solve kj, he'll solve himself for me. And yes, I'm very happy with where the gamestate is, do I look like I'm trying to change it?
This wait and see act only works if she every comes up with a reason and she never really does. The only thing that happens is his role claim which she says IS NOT a reason....but she does anyway.
Also, I didn't want someone else to hammer first. If he was scum, I wanted to be able to say I helped lynch him D1. [b]And if town, and he went down because I misread him and didn't defend him, I wanted to own that[/b]
All of this is very scummy. It screams I want credit for hunting and a flip without saying anything incriminating or doing the work.
Yup.
Vote: KCC
Doesn’t want to scum hunt. Just seems to observe. Wants the credit for scum flips and to “own” a mislynch yet everyone’s that pushed her about a bad lynch is getting “Well no it wasn’t bad…it just was a mislynch!” and hyper defensiveness over it. It’s all very Anti town.
Her current “pressure” is to vote ZDS because of things she read in the cell chat we can’t see and can’t build any understanding off of….she has yet to read the in game wall. In fact she seems to be just ricocheting of Rhand and is waiting for his “mind meld” to tell her what to think about it
Quick question then: Look at Rhand/KCC's end of day transition from Zion to ZDS. Do you agree with me that their movement and almost complete dropping of ZIon? (KCC at least said that she doesn't want to go for Zion today because of the v/la).
I hate this forum software so much. I hate the spam filter (probably the reason why my post got broken: too many links), I hate the pointless preview feature that doesn't jump you to the last page, I hate that whatever you typed gets deleted when you jump to another page, I hate the *****-tier ISO feature, etc. It's painful how much backwards we've gone from ten years ago.
First mindmeld we've had all game. Hey! /offers high five
I'm drunk and in no state to make serious posts but honestly, **** all of you if you're going to lynch me after I was one of the few people right about the meta case on KJ being horse*****.
Sure, his claim threw me off, but like... I was right.
I was ******* second THIRD ( ) on the Zion wagon, and have absolutely no idea how you can define that as opportunistic. My argument wasn't that Zion was not finding Scum, it's that page 3/4 had nothing going on but a lot of words and felt weird. I reread it and (correctly) identified KJ as Town who was overeager, so the scum ping must've come from Zion.
That is also not what happened. You went out of your way to state KJ as null several times.
Like do you have any self awareness of the fact that you were GONE all of D1? And I stayed out of the spotlight? Not any of the low posters? Even if you were gone for legit reasons, you want to tell me the people who barely posted in this thread *didn't* stay out of the spotlight?
Yesterday was TvT on the major wagons (at least I think, but if Zion is Scum, add another told-ya-so to my list) so I'm pretty sus of most of the players that just let it happpen.
Jesus Christ, Flarg, that's not how that works.
Talk to me about why you think Zion is now Town; I want to hear your (sober) process on this.
Flarg was so pure in our cell chat that I am sure he's town.
I invite everyone to actually click the links in ZDS's case and compare them to what ZDS is saying. There's a lot of exaggerations and smears in there.
ZDS is using busswords like "self-conscious" and "opportunistic" in places where it's totally unwarranted.
I have started on a breakdown of the case, but it's becoming a huge wall and I don't think anyone will read it.
vote ZDS
Looking forward to your wall.
Is your vote on ZDS solely due to him voting your bff, or is there more?
What changed overNight for you on Zion?
How was Vaimes in Night chat?
I wanted to see his flip and there was nothing else to do D1
Also, I didn't want someone else to hammer first. If he was scum, I wanted to be able to say I helped lynch him D1. And if town, and he went down because I misread him and didn't defend him, I wanted to own that
So you went from a Day of making zero decisive moves to suddenly and without explanation making a decision to screw Town over?
Also, the bolded is ridiculous. You vote because of "honor"? What are you, Zuko?
Counterpoint: if one of them is scum, they shot you to clear themselves. That's 100% worth potentially losing a kill imo.
Why?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
maybe tomorrow, and if I was wolf, I could see myself doing that
But going over the kj wagon in my head a little.
Last definitely had the worst defense of him. Because it was literally nothing. Like, flarg has a stupid aversion to meta on principal. Last doesnt have that.
A few people just didnt like the case but (unlike last) that didnt suddenly make him a strong townread.
But as ive said it can easily be a fake read coming from townlast too. But i do think townlast usually hammers when he said he would...
Theres also a group that positioned themselves like "yes this can die because tom said so" with some other agendas.
Speaking here mainly of GJ and rhand, but
grape, zion and vaimes with some of it too. Specifically gj made sure that any blowback on his kj push would land on me, which felt iffy at the time and worse with flip.Rhand didnt push kj or me at all really but played up <something dichotomous>
I think my last thought from kj wagon is if there werent a bunch of scum there already, one would want to push it that last little bit after his claim. So im, like, slightly sus on flarg/kcc but not in any concrete way just a thing to think on
so here we are
My intent was never to hammer, it was to see who would put him in hammer range, as for what that says about Rhand idk yet, plus Slothful wanted to do his due diligence, so ya
town!Last does hammer there in probably some timelines, but he didnt here, ohh well
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I think pretty much all the "avoiding confrontation" exhibits are pretty useless to me without meta (loltom) because i can definitely see that being playstyle, but ill say if it is playstyle its a fairly convenient one for scum (yes yes, pot>kettle)
But the opportunism bits are solid and ZDS is very right that flarg definitely doesnt want to create the change he claims to want in the thread.
Dont think reading that changed my feelings on flarg really, but i might like the trajectory from ZDS.
And i kinda felt ok about him towards eod. His posts kinda sucked then but they did feel like a sucky towny that didnt know what was going on...
I would still like to hear him justify that kj defense though because it was exceptionally inaccurate...but meh
By far the occams razor for your play around KJ yesterday was knowing he was town but having no way to justify it.
Thats even before applying your wolf meta lol.
Fair play on reaction testing though. Ill drop that either way
Not talking about you pushing me at all just avoiding blame. Passing the buck to flipping zion first is still avoiding blame and my point stands.
honest question, did the now over Token 4 influence your read on KJ at all?
you can plead the 4th if you want, but I am just curious is all
I can't tell if you are being purposefully deceitful, or unintentionally ignoring chunks of posts. I set the anti Zionite shove. If Zionite flips wolf, I should take the full ******* blame for it. And no, you didn't say push, you said setting you up for the fall....as I adamantly call you town, with only some slight suspicioun for a flip that would be 10 times worse for me than for you. YOu didn't try to stop ZIonite, I did. I also for the time being have no interest in pursuing that wagon. I wouldn't hate if Zionite got vigged, but not really where I want to be right now. I am somewhere in the KCC/Vaimes world with some scrutiny towards ZDS (but that world gets weird as I don't see KCC/ZDS wolves together, not just for the cellmate schtick)
I made it no secret that I shamelessly sheeped you on KJ. I also wasn't a fan of KJ before your push so there. Zio I felt was getting pushed mostly because people were unhappy he was "waiting". If he's a wolf, I am hard core his buddy. I don't love the KJ lynch per the claim, but that is what it is. You are either weaving a tall tale or just tomming off, but your interpretation of said sheep makes no sense.
As far as not doing anything, I have been hunting and will continue to do so. Your attack on me is strange, and you continue to prove that you have absolutely no ability to read me and should humbly defer. If you need me to be more town meta, I could just rage until I get thrown out (I AM JOKING SHADOW DONT KICK ME).
So to sum up, your summary of my motivations seem really really intricate. You have played wolf with me, you know I don't get anywhere near that level of fanciness, and asserting it to me is at best, a weird look at a worse, a wolfy one. Take of that what you will but anyone who has ever played wolf with me will back up that I am just a simple town looking wolf whose single trick (albeit, a relatively strong one) is the ability to have strong overlapping ranges, and tough to read.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Jesus ****, ITS THE FIFTH AMENDMENT
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Blame me all you want. I can argue I would have switched to Zio > KJ unless I wanted to ******* throw my back out to try and CFD KCC. The problem with your theory here is that implies I want to flip zionite first. Spoiler: I don't.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Of the three id say jack>zds>kcc town>scum
Did you mistype 189 or am I missing something?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
But him and i spent so much time talking about my read day 1 and he started agreeing with some points and maybe felt like he had some understanding of what i was putting out there and yeah
But today its just "tom was wrong kill it"?
Which
I did expect but not from him?
Idk could be nothing
A.
Grapefuit21A. Tomsloger
A. YWFMLF
B. Gentleman Johnny
B.
KilljoyB. Zionite
C. Lastwhisper
C. Slothful
C. Tubba Fett
D. Jackrito
D. KittyCupCake
D. ZeDorkSlipeur
E. FlargBlarg
E. Rhand
E. Vaimes
If there was 1 in each cell...
Ywf/gj/last/kcc/rhand
Thats not teambuilding that would be dumb thats in a vacuum
E seems shadiest but just by virtue of having no one townie in it. B if youd asked me before kj flip...
D remains actively discordant. None of C seem to agree on anything either?
Most likely all-town group... probably mine, C, or D.
If i could kill a group outright...
Well B kills my current vote and reveals zions alignment that feels like the best move.
But i might choose E those flips almost would have to break this ***** open
Re Flarg's #1540 Let's agree that we are going on a loop at this point, both of us are repeating the same arguments. Although:
Is such a convenient excuse to absolve yourself of responsibility for not mattering. You can't make the horses drink, but you sure can make some horse*****.
From now on, I want you to stop focusing on defending yourself, especially if all you are going to do is selectively peck at the parts you can answer with generic responses such as "it's (not) my style".
Instead, please provide content (like you've promised twice you would do, re:GJ) and do the scumhunting you say you were so focused on yesterDay. Prove to me and to the rest of the town that I'm wrong in saying all you do is protect your ass and make safe, convenient choices that don't truly put you at risk. So far your play toDay has been doing the opposite of proving that (but I don't know how much time you are spending on the game per session so maybe it's reasonable that you have done nothing but defend yourself).
Succeed and I'll look elsewhere. Fail or do a crap job and I'll have your head on a silver platter. No pressure intended.
Re Vaimes's #1550 Were you trying to accomplish anything with your vote on me? If you like what the case on me is doing, why not keep your vote to maintain the pressure?
---
I know my case on Flarg is "over the top" (as Jack put it). It's excessively long and long-winded, it lacks impact, it lacks structure, and I'm sure many of you didn't actually read it (maybe skimmed through it at most). I wrote it in a rush in a couple hours (and most of that was rereading him and fetching links).
To summarise my issues with him and why he has a scum mindset, FlargBlarg has been acting as a "voice of reason", and that makes his posts look fine from a distance. But if you break past the shell of generically reasonable stances and explanations, you will find nearly all of his posts (with too few exceptions) are hollow. In fact, you could remove all of his posts and votes and absolutely nothing would change.
That kind of posting does not come from someone more interested in scumhunting than in self-preservation, it comes from someone whose primary objective is to always be able to explain away anything they did. I know from experience in having played like this as scum how easy it is to get away with being astonishingly scummy if you have a logical, reasonable explanation for everything. It's an exploit of the common biases towards thinking logical = right and reasonable = good/town.
Keep that in mind when reading Flarg's past and future posts, and don't hesitate to vote him at any time.
(Also if Flarg flips scum I'll have to look back at everyone who went "yeah I kinda agree, but let's look elsewhere")
---
I assume KCC is pissed at me because she thinks she gave an excellent defense of Flarg in our Night chat and I'm going "lalala, can't hear you". (I think her defense of Flarg isn't that good, but I want her to be the one to post it before I say why I'm not convinced by it, to avoid messing up first impressions.)
We chatted in realtime, and the way he posted quickly and carefree would be extremely hard to fake as scum.
he didn't pause to think when I asked him stuff about players.
Curious to hear KCC explain what the problem is, other than pure disagreement on Flarg's spot.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Curious to hear KCC explain what the problem is, other than pure disagreement on Flarg's spot.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Like even the bolded seems like she knows she is about to get a town player, but it is all his fault. Pontius Pilate at least looked disgusted when he washed his hands of the situation. I also don't really buy her strongest wolf read just being put on the backburner, especially when it can shed light on some other reads. Why are his big posts not attempts to hunt, or analyze his big posts. Or hell, explain more why you think ZDS is wolfy and wolfy enough to not justify trying to get people to back Zionite as a lynch. He doesn't magically change roles just because he is on holiday.
Vaimes continues to screw around in the back, doing nothing and skimming off the top. (not still mad about that). Rhand/Tubba I am waiting to see something from. ZDS I want to see continue. Flarg has been lackluster as of late.
Anyone not mentioned, I don't super care about or don't think you are a strong wolf read. Happy hunting.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
tom, why can't you ever get a good read on me? I don't want to be angry anymore
The GJ way path to no lynching:
KCC is your top scum, why does it feel like youre just musing into the wind about her zds push?
Musing into the wind implies I am talking to myself and have no interest in convincing people. I am putting forward my points, showing my issues, and that's all I can do right now. No one apart from you is posting. If everyone else shows, browses over my points, I will start asking people directly.
What's your current read on KCC vs Zionite, ignoring my own alignment for the time being?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Though i dont think thats a versus. In that their alignments arent really tied together in my head.
I don't disagree. They could be V/V. I added the ignore me part because I feel like my alignment changes your view on Zionite, but I think I mixed it up in my mind. Me being town doesn't really effect your read of Zio (I assume). Me being a wolf does.
I just meant vs as in, KCC is wolf reading him, Zionite doesn't seem to be a huge fan from a quick skim (not 100% sure if ZIonite is still reading KCC as a wolf).
I have a slight point of paranoia of Zionite per a note, but I need to hear a response from him. The other people in my wolf reads are in a weird spot. I need to look at Flarg a bit more, and I think I will turn on Rhand if nothing changes today.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Why vote ZDS over ZIonite?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
@Dork: Next time use quotes. Put them in spoilers, I don't care. It's just easier to read.
This is a stretch.
(1) What are you basing this statement on? Do you have experience on Flarg's meta? Is there another reason beyond "this is what I would have done"?
(2) I don't understand what you're saying here? Break it down for me, please.
(3) What is your read on Vaimes, exactly?
You're talking about this? Interesting. I actually very much disagree that the argument is weak (much less extremely, why that word?), it's actually valid - even more so if you take into account Z's future actions and moves following it.
However, this is something I also noticed and brought up for essentially the same reasons (though I did not disclose these to the thread) + possible partner, as seen here:
I have my own, press me on it after you answer and let's compare notes.
What is you opinion of the interaction in #343?
Wait a minute, that's what you think is weird about #518?
...Read it again.
Though to your point: This is another reach; I'm not sure what you're expecting him to do re: Jackrito. Congratulate him on voting his scumread?
Also not seeing #939 as bad, if anything it's probably the best post he had D1, especially the admission he just didn't want to re-read. Talk through this more: I agree he did not take a proper stance, but as you enumerated thoroughly, he spent the span of 300 posts loudly arguing with Tom's case. What's the benefit as scum?
This ******* case. I mentioned on an earlier post that it didn't look great and that I wanted to do a deep dive.
Upon doing that, it's not as bad as the first impression indicated but far too much of it is extremely circumstantial assumption.
What catches my attention the most is that even though I also have Flarg as potential scum (not as strong, clearly), there's very little common ground between your case and my notes, Dork. I don't get how a lot of what you saw is tremendously (correct me if this is the wrong word to use) scummy; and I especially don't get how certain things didn't get mentioned by you.
I wanna say the extreme effort in these posts means probable town? But the content, assuming omissions were intentional...I'll look back on this with the benefit of more time.
Jack
YMV
tom
Zion
LW
ZDS
Tubba
Flarg
Vaimes
Rhand
KCC
God damn, SOMEONE INTERACT WITH ME
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Agreed on Rhand.
Question, do you have any other reads in general beyond Flarg? Any thoughts on partners?
Lol. I wasn't going to bring this up but for all your comments about "how badly the town needs your guidance" and you keeping things close to chest, your big reveal was "Flarg is scum"? The guy that most of us were already giving the shifty eye and even discussed the possibility of CFD? ******* really?
Quick question then: Look at Rhand/KCC's end of day transition from Zion to ZDS. Do you agree with me that their movement and almost complete dropping of ZIon? (KCC at least said that she doesn't want to go for Zion today because of the v/la).
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Also, you (clearly) side with him over KC. What about KC's arguments didn't pan?
everything is just kinda…bland. She doesn’t seem to push anyone beyond placing a vote.
I mean she says it herself Zion is MIA with the KJ wagon…she’s at best mildly suspicious and hedging her bets with KJ but is doing nothing beyond voting him. Everything is I have no REAL feeling on KJ! I’m good on lynching him though.
This wait and see act only works if she every comes up with a reason and she never really does. The only thing that happens is his role claim which she says IS NOT a reason....but she does anyway.
Then we have D2....
Cept that's not what she's doing...
All of this is very scummy. It screams I want credit for hunting and a flip without saying anything incriminating or doing the work.
Yup.
Vote: KCC
Doesn’t want to scum hunt. Just seems to observe. Wants the credit for scum flips and to “own” a mislynch yet everyone’s that pushed her about a bad lynch is getting “Well no it wasn’t bad…it just was a mislynch!” and hyper defensiveness over it. It’s all very Anti town.
Her current “pressure” is to vote ZDS because of things she read in the cell chat we can’t see and can’t build any understanding off of….she has yet to read the in game wall. In fact she seems to be just ricocheting of Rhand and is waiting for his “mind meld” to tell her what to think about it
More on that later lol
(Your vote, I mean)
Vote: KCC
Did it work?
Friends don't let friends post drunk.
Talk to me about why you think Zion is now Town; I want to hear your (sober) process on this.
Is your vote on ZDS solely due to him voting your bff, or is there more?
What changed overNight for you on Zion?
How was Vaimes in Night chat?
What do you mean?
Also, the bolded is ridiculous. You vote because of "honor"? What are you, Zuko? This is almost the exact argument Rhand made, but reversed. Did you have something on Dork before? Point me to that, if so.