As far as tom goes. I would only be suspicious of him for the same reason you should be suspicious of me: In wolf Zionite world. Neither me nor tom as wolves would charge on KJ (if he were town) if Zionite was a town player already getting strung up. Why draw the attention and blow all that credit for a town mislynch if the game was already on town mislynch?
Also, what scummy line are you talking about? I just saw that as asking how hyperbolic you were about spitroasting tom.
I mean. My vote hasn't moved.
However, you shouldn't tell me there's no scenario where scum!Tom (or you) does this if Zi's town: Votes are stalling, wagon was losing steam, etc.
Everyone 100% saw coming because we've all played mafia before and I'm sure no one can name a game where a seemingly strong wagon hasn't fizzled out around the midpoint mark of the Day. Any experienced mafia player would have known this was coming and, as scum, prepared for it; plus, as noted, Tom locked himself into KJ.
People were asking for a counterwagon and one was given. Even if it flips green, it's not necessarily damning for the one that propelled it (though I intend to make sure it is.)
Also there's the KCC factor: In a world where Zi is town and KCC is scum, it was around this time that the noose was starting to close in on her (when, again, people were wanting a counterwagon) so better give them a town one (KJ) before your buddy (KCC) is propped up.
That's the thing about me, I can easily come up with a scenario with layers. And the thing is, the above isn't even that unlikely.
Certainly more likely than KCC and Zi being scumpartners - which I already brought up in an earlier post how I think it's not outside the realm of possibility.
My problem in the game is that I focus on WiFOM a lot and I keep trying to think 10 steps ahead, and I expect other players to do the same, which is not always the case.
I would say Occam's Razor scenarios are the ones that usually trip me up.
What do you mean by what scummy line? Link me to the post you're referencing?
If everyone took that approach to the game, wouldn't that be problematic?
If everyone took that approach to everyone, yes, that's ridiculous
I'm obviously not advocating that. I'm saying I'm not going to waste my time engaging KJ in ways that are both unnecessary and not helpful to me in reading him
No, you seemingly aren't trying to change it. But what you seem to be doing is pushing away from KJ, but leaving yourself room to jump on.
I am absolutely not pushing away from KJ. I think he's under the perfect amount of pressure atm. But if I add my vote to him, that's a death sentence, and I'm so not there
As in lynch as scum or are you being hyperbolic? Because like you said crappy KJ read does not automatically equal scumTom
As in lynch. Read the post closer, I made an argument on why in this case, it does.
Why did you wait for me to say something if you picked up on the scummy line yourself?
I am trying to read between invoices, unfortunately difficult, but I couldn't find what this was referring to. You asked me and KCC to analyze your last few posts, and I am attempting to do so. But unless you are strictly talking about a world where KJ flips town, and tom is a wolf, I don't get it.
However, you shouldn't tell me there's no scenario where scum!Tom (or you) does this if Zi's town:
There is no scenario where I call it a town wagon, refuse to support it, and then bullrush into another townie if Zionite is town. WIFOM it may be, but it makes no logical sense. I can't speak for tom, but when I have seen him dig hard into a player has come from town tom more than wolf tom. Wolf tom pushes but I never feel like he runs point on those situations.
Nope. You did not do that. You expressed discontent with the post in general but nothing specific about it, or about that line. Why?
You said it yourself...I chose to wait on specifics til I saw others had them too...I know I can fixate on stupid small details so increases my confidence if I see I'm not the only one its bothers. Otherwise I'm just adding more distracting noise.
Nope. You did not do that. You expressed discontent with the post in general but nothing specific about it, or about that line. Why?
You said it yourself...I chose to wait on specifics til I saw others had them too...I know I can fixate on stupid small details so increases my confidence if I see I'm not the only one its bothers. Otherwise I'm just adding more distracting noise.
I am trying to read between invoices, unfortunately difficult, but I couldn't find what this was referring to. You asked me and KCC to analyze your last few posts, and I am attempting to do so. But unless you are strictly talking about a world where KJ flips town, and tom is a wolf, I don't get it.
I just needed general feedback and opinions from players more accustomed to this site and its players. If nothing else, my posts should (hopefully) spark conversations to angles we haven't considered. (Also, to clarify, by last two posts, I did mean the large walls, 827 and 829)
The "scummy line" sentence was a misunderstanding: It wasn't a line from Tom that I went "this is a line that has scum-intent", rather a line with the word "scummy" literally in it. See the spoiler below:
However, you shouldn't tell me there's no scenario where scum!Tom (or you) does this if Zi's town:
There is no scenario where I call it a town wagon, refuse to support it, and then bullrush into another townie if Zionite is town. WIFOM it may be, but it makes no logical sense. I can't speak for tom, but when I have seen him dig hard into a player has come from town tom more than wolf tom. Wolf tom pushes but I never feel like he runs point on those situations.
Which is why I find you currently more townie than Tom. But I try to consider everything (to my detriment) so
If nothing else, I'm relatively certain that you and Tom can't be scum together.
Indeed. It's why I'm askin....wanted to make sure I'm not putting things into easily hammer territory and risk ending D1 super early.
Vote: Zion
Point me to the posts where you've discussed Z prior to this, please.
Also if you have any further thoughts not in your previous posts, I want to hear them.
Lynching:
Players will be lynched once a simple majority of votes for that player is achieved (i.e. Majority lynch).
There will likely be some amount of time (twilight) between the final lynch vote and the lynch scene. Players may post during twilight.
If a majority lynch is not achieved by the deadline, no lynch will occur.
I took this to mean that if we hit majority then its done.
Sloth, re KCC, yes, that’s how she’s been a bit this game, and that’s the point. I haven’t seen her scum play yet.
Did I misread your response? 'Cause it sounded like you were telling me that her scumplay is as you described, and that she's playing like that this game...ergo she's scum?
Did I misread your response? 'Cause it sounded like you were telling me that her scumplay is as you described, and that she's playing like that this game...ergo she's scum?
Oh, no, I was describing her townplay and how I’ve been misreading her.
KJ (5): Tubba, vaimes, tom, gj, Grape,
Zionite (4): Sloth, Flarg, Jack, KCC,
Grape (1): Rhand,
KCC (1): Zion,
tom: (1): Last,
Not Voting (3): YWFMLF, ZDS, KJ,
I think this is the most updated one as of #858 - are you ever going to vote, btw?
Hm. Where's Rhand been?
@GJ: how likely you find the scenario assuming a scum!tom?
What do you mean "how likely"? Are you asking me how likely I think your tom is wolf scenario is?
I understand the points your bring up. He sounds super confidant in some points, and seems balkish at some points. I am typically more balkish than anyone because I don't objectively know anyone's alignment, so I can see why he might be sure or not. What he is saying if he is a wolf is that he had a plan, almost pregame it sounds like to go for KJ. That feels ballsy as hell. I think tom relies on meta way too much, but I can understand his conviction if he is town, and think he has KJ,
KJ to me comes off as posting a lot without saying anything. That sounds a lot like my read of vaimes, and that isn't a coicedence. No bodies, no power roles to check, so really everything here is speculation until bodies start turning.
So a lot of stuff happened and I’m eager to get into it longform but just posting a quick one for now to get impressions down. I hate mobile posting but it’s got its upsides.
I really expected to see more votes on me coming back but I think it has to do with my activity. Been busy with work stuff. I’ll also have a V/LA Coming up 3/4-3/11 but if the 3/3 deadline is true doesn’t seem like there will be an issue there. But yeah I don’t get to spend 4 hours on one post every time like I used to. Maybe that’s better for reading anyway.
So I’m cool with barning Tom because he’s pretty sharp, and I think he might be right on KJ. I have some reservations here that I need to do an independent read to evaluate but so far I’m on board. I feel like if I validate Tom too much he will end up the NK and then I can’t barn him anymore lol. But yeah I think I could learn a lot from KJ flipping because there’s some serious resistance going on with “oh it’s a meta read total trash” and could be some manipulation there.
I’m not totally dropping KCC because I felt the frustration from me not being around from a scum mindset. Like I remember being scum going after someone right before a VLA and being like “crap what now?” Feels like if you’re not doggedly pursuing your top suspect you get all self critical and don’t know what to do with yourself. I can see that happening here.
On that topic I noticed a couple of players mentioning they also saw some scummy stuff with KCC but didn’t really pile on the wagon. Don’t know how to feel about that but I think ZDS’ comments about my lack of enthusiasm is probably the issue. Which is true, I’m not wild about it or 100% sure, but I thought it had more substance than the Jackrito push at least. Could be that KCC has some scum buddies distancing but not enough to bus at one vote. Definitely not reading a ton of town vibe happening.
Someone else mentioned I should get a complete list of reads together if I’m expecting to go down, and whether I do or not I think that’s a great idea and I’ve got quite a bit to work with on most players.
I’m getting kind of self conscious about players buddying with me, like objectively I should have been lynched already but are we dealing with scum smart enough to save low hanging fruit til later Days when it’s worth more? I think the scum team is smart, experienced. That’s why I haven’t been lynched yet, but I will be eventually.
That’s it for now. More later today or possibly tomorrow if I get busy again.
It’s almost impossible to have a read without taking meta into account and previous history. I think players aren’t giving it enough credit and are overly dismissive instead of pointing out why they think KJ is town.
Point me to the posts where you've discussed Z prior to this, please.
Also if you have any further thoughts not in your previous posts, I want to hear them.
Please stand by struggling with the quote coding and this ******* FORUM DELETING CHUNKS OF WHAT I WRITE.
It’s almost impossible to have a read without taking meta into account and previous history. I think players aren’t giving it enough credit and are overly dismissive instead of pointing out why they think KJ is town.
Could you take any more actions to have less of a committed stance? That's what's 'triggering' for me. The opportunistic part is where you continue to do this 'hedging' in post after post, and I don't understand why you're not already voting me if you think I'm fake and scum.
See above. I see this turfing of half-reads so that Jack can go with whatever vote is beneficial later down the road and it won't be weird because the read was half-right. It seems like Jack is keeping options open.
My whole point was that hedging and lack of commitment isn’t necessarily and indicator of alignment.
So all this is…just a mess to me. One of his biggest posts is a charge against jack about the hedging….only to turn in 480 and say this isn’t an indicator….
Then why spend so long harping on it? Either he’s being inconsistent or hyper defensive of himself instead of actually scum hunting.
Then when you press him on it he comes back with….
Well, I think there's a difference between backtracking openly and trying not to look like backtracking. I'm doing the former here.
At no point do I see him say “Hey I realize I’m wrong about alignment and hedging despite my early Jack offense” he just says well yea that was my point as if he always held it. That’s not openly saying your backtracking its backtracking quietly until you’re called on it.
4. LW is less meme-y now and that's where I prefer the posts to be. I was assuming it was gonna be an all-Day thing at first.
Only answers half this. quote keeps breaking in preview and Im declaring ****it I dont care.
Quote from from="Zionite »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/816321-prison-block-mafia-ii-day-1-orange-dawn?comment=587” »
I literally can't prove that I'm town though. So that's why I'm more of a "let's just get this over with" instead of "I'm town you gotta believe me". Besides, I thought the standard was innocent until proven guilty? So what sort of proof are you looking for? Are we requiring this for every player? I get what you're saying and I get a good town-read from it, but I don't know how to resolve what you're looking for without pushing me to a lynch.
…holy defensive spiral batman. He just doesn’t seem to be doing anything other than “"I'm town you gotta believe me. Why don’t you believe me!?” Like I see very little in ways of scum hunting unless its about the wagon on him or people voting him (#604)
Quote from from="Zionite »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/816321-prison-block-mafia-ii-day-1-orange-dawn?comment=588” »
357 Might feel hollow because I wasn't even feeling it as I wrote it. But it was already mostly done so I figured why not, I'll do this and backtrack later, or investigate further anyone who bites and follows it.
Cop out. Basically tries to put a dismiss any opinions or questions of his actions in one of his major posts. Feels like when someone gives an opinion on a topic and when the other party takes offense or pushes back they come back with “Oh it was just a joke” so they can end any further looking into it.
I know the quotes aren't coded right. I'm done trying to fix it.
As bad as it sounds, weekends are even worse for me. I am doing the VITA program through my college classes, and weekends in general are just bad for me. My activity will be close to 0. Mon I will do my catch up posts though.
Yeah I'm sticking with my vote as Zion. I still think Killjoy could be scum but based off that vote count I town read the Zion voters a lot more then those voting Killjoy. So makes me doubt my read and feel that Killjoy train has scum infulcence.
YABASIC: Sorry for the mispronouning. Shouldn't happen again.
KCC: Well lets try this: How do you usually read me? What do you look for in town KJ that's not here? Because you seem to scumreading me for what is here but is not in other games, which is the opposite of that, so.
@Last: Actually, have you ever seen wolf!me? I don't think I've ever been a wolf opposite you.
Tubba: It's not a playstyle shift per se, as it's not something that's something that's gonna happen with any real frequency. I mean, I don't blame people for thinking I'm actively different this game, I can see it. I just looked over the past few games looking to see how quickly KCC could townread me, and made a note that I was a lot more serious in those games for the most part. I do blame my wagon for assigning alignment differences for that, but not really doing much to prove it. Tom is an exception to this, which is why I'm willing to reevaluate there.
As for why I was different this game, I... don't actually know. I was just really excited to play.
Sloth: Actually daychat, until fairly recently (past few years?) has been uncommon here. Mostly it's been limited to bigger/complex games. It's certainly possible. I just thought that tom made the conclusion without it being certain.
For ZDS: He has one post with any content, and that post has not a lot of reads. It's 642. He's not fully caught up even. That's not enough for a good read on the slot unless it's PoE and I don't have nearly enough townreads for that. If we had flips I might be able to extrapolate from there, but for now, no. There's no read.
Also, actually, can you send me to a scum game of yours?
How likely do you see a GJ/KCC world here? I'm currently not.
GJ: I do agree with Sloth that hbomberguy is a good listen. If you like D&D there's several podcasts of people just playing. Critical Role is a good one, as it's pretty professionally done.
Zionite: I'd like you to outline your read on me in full please. Why I'm scum, reservations you have, etc. You seem to be talking yourself into joining my wagon and I'm not sure why. Also in 872, you seem to be saying that people aren't giving meta arguments enough credit, but then say people aren't talking enough about why they think I'm town, which doesn't seem to make sense with the previous sentence?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I really like GJ's posts to KCC, moreso the first ones after my reads list.
It's also possible I jumped too early into town!Zionite mode after looking at the VC. I could absolutely be a counterwagon to Zionite, and Zionite is off voting in the middle of nowhere (on a player that might be scum) so I wanna poke that bear a bit more as well.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Zionite's To-do list:
Catch up long-form Unleash demons on my enemies Come up with an actual defense for terrible play
Give KJ a good hard look
Do a legit T/S list with the fancy colors before getting lynched for the terrible play
Might be some projecting here with the trying to hard to look engaged.
Lol. You're going to need to show me where you say I'm doing that, because I'm well aware I play the early game at like 50%
Yeah sorry the links broke and I was so proud lol. I think it was in the very next link on that one instead. Basically you accused someone of trying to hard to look engaged which I found funny because the same could be applied to your post.
I don't like this post because it's like an excuse to not contribute. What would even happen if no one said anything unless it was a question directed toward them?
Maybe the thread would still be readable by D2
Anyway, the point was that if someone wants something from me, it's more effective to just ask me directly rather than make an aimless comment. Last especially should know by now I'm way more interested when something involves me
I lol'd hard at this. Sooo true.
Okay fine, I'll let you do what you want on this one. No more passes though.
I suppose this post would be the first engagement with what we had so far. What I find interesting is that we remove the RVS, don't really dig into Zionite right away on why I may have missed it, go after Grape even though KCC previously said the YWFMLF wagon was fine I guess. The follow up vote on Grape was weak and didn't really inspire anyone to follow.
We did have a nice little wagon going, but okay
And, yes, the ywfmlf wagon was fine at the time, I had no issues with it. And then grape caught my eye
Are you actually trying to frame scum hunting as being suspicious because I didn't hate earlier pressure on a different unrelated player?
It wasn't even pressure, the voters on YWFMLF weren't even trying. Same for your vote on Grape; not even trying. If you were scum hunting the fact I missed your vote was RVS would have been priority #1. That involves yourself, it's a misrep, and it's an indication I'm not paying attention. The simplest explanation is that you know I'm town. I'm not buying it.
This post is a mis-characterization and seems like KCC knew that with the 'if' statement.
How was it a mischaracterization? It was one of the exactly two reasons you gave
You said "if that's the main reason" when you know it's not the main reason because "if". Falls in line with the rest of the fanning the flames I've seen from you, and apparently I'm not the only one.
Here we start bringing up Zio-meta that I don't particularly agree with. If anything I cared too much as scum in 2015. Kinda feels like some light mud-slinging.
Maybe in 2015? My meta is from more like 2012. And I'm not wrong. The game that I remember clearly, you ignored the consistent pressure against you for Days, pretty much right up until you were already nearly buried
Like what is he supposed to say to his post being out of character when it still is in character with the spoiler? I don't understand a scum hunting mindset fitting here.
It wasn't something I'd expect from him: part of the post I could see, but not the whole, together, as posted. -And what was he supposed to say? An explanation, if there was one?
Which... is exactly what he did, so what are you even saying here?
I'm saying the initial question you posed wasn't good. Gave me scum-vibes, didn't sit well with me, all that.
I found it odd KCC totally missed my self-meta post.
I know you linked games. That doesn't mean that was the exact list KJ looked at. He might have only read some, or found more, or been making it up to sound like he was researching
It was something I wanted to have down now, rather than coming back for less useful clarification later
What other list would there have been in discussion? I mean I assume he didn't read the whole games but even skimming and looking at the first post alignment flips is pretty useful. And if he was making it up well, maybe you should care more about that as town.
Even though she was your townread at the time, you didn't read KCC's post close enough to see that it was an RVS; despite it being her literal first post so impossible to miss.
Hedging/Lack of commitment not being an indicator. I agree with this but that is seriously not what you were saying earlier. This feels like trying to backtrack.
Further changes unexplained changes on Grape.
What Last and Ter have done to make you feel better? I'm assuming it's more than walls.
[b][TRIM TRIM TRIM][/b]
On that note, whenever you get around to this would be great:
[b][SNIP: the bit about your rather sudden and unexplained change from FOSing Grape to full-on sheeping him.][/b]
1. Yep, totally wasn't paying enough attention to KCC. I deserve this one.
2. Well, I think there's a difference between backtracking openly and trying not to look like backtracking. I'm doing the former here.
3. Was posting on mobile before bed at 3am. My initial reads kind of matched up with what Grape was doing so I liked it. But now I'm liking him less. I could do a more thorough read on him but I don't think it's a productive use right now.
4. LW is less meme-y now and that's where I prefer the posts to be. I was assuming it was gonna be an all-Day thing at first.
I literally can't prove that I'm town though. So that's why I'm more of a "let's just get this over with" instead of "I'm town you gotta believe me". Besides, I thought the standard was innocent until proven guilty? So what sort of proof are you looking for? Are we requiring this for every player? I get what you're saying and I get a good town-read from it, but I don't know how to resolve what you're looking for without pushing me to a lynch.
2: In this case, there really is no difference. This isn't an action or post you read wrong and are backtracking; you can't say "hedging is an indicator" and then take it back and say "no, it is not an indicator." There's no GOOD way to backtrack out of that one, honestly.
Admitting you are backtracking is definitely not it, at least.
3: Yet you still haven't talked about your progression from your initial read on Grape to following him. I don't really want to know where you think he is now, I want to know how you got from your initial assessment to the one where you vote with him. It really was all "oh it was 3am"?
4: And Ter/Laserface?
I'm requiring this of every player I suspect, yes.
I'm not going to address the rest, feels like misdirecting, a lot of "why is it okay if it's you"s and "look the other way"s. Not really relevant to actual gamesolving from what I can see.
I'm still comfortable with my vote, but now I have something else to think about.
2. You're entitled to have that view and I'm happy to see that you have it. But I made a play and stick by it, even if it's wrong. I wanted to demonstrate to myself and others that fence-sitting doesn't really matter at this stage of the game. DO judge me on it.
3. Man, at this point it's going to require rereading Grape. There was something there but I forgot.
4. I liked YWFMLF's solvy bits, or at least that they were being attempted. But yeah I guess you're asking me to go through each post and show how my view changed, which simply isn't going to happen at this point because I mean, look at my todo list. I'll get to it as I'm going through a T/S list I'm sure.
What would you say if I am fading on him for similar reasons to you?
As far as the freezing on Zionite part. I never thought MTGS was huge on always being dueling wagons. Sure it happens, but I don't think anything if it doesn't. Being frozen on 4 votes with most of the votes being town reads does point to wolves probably being ok with how the day is going.
GJ, I’d say whatever you’re using to read my mind, teach me.
You misunderstand, or I phrased it poorly. What I meant was that the same reasons I am not a huge fan of your slot, are starting to apply to KJ.
I’m curious about your thoughts on Zio, I’m still feeling there’s a wolf between him and Jack and keep wavering back and forth.
He can get lazy about posting and snarky in response. His last two/three posts I thought have been pretty analytical like he is trying to solve. I think he is pretty town, and really the only hesitation in that read is how many of my own town reads are voting him. KCC is the only one and that is more of a null read.
Jacks a bit of spicier wolf read. So I don't have to reread your iso, why do you think there has to be a wolf there, and can they both be town or both be wolves?
If you admit my play has been uh, rusty, then the town reads on the wagon make sense. Or at least that's how I've been parsing it.
So one will need to point me to something that comes from wolf!killjoy
I'm not exactly scumreading kj, I haven't seen enough to make a confident read one way or the other. But if we absolutely need a counter wagon, that's one of the places I'd like seeing pressure
or Zionite's recent case (#607) on KCC that may look nice with links, but sure as **** does not look like he's that interested in getting her lynched
Like a half-hearted OMGUS push from scum who feels obligated to do something, but doesn't actually expect it to work at all?
As for current site meta, pushing now in the Day is almost pointless, since with a 3/3 1700 mst deadline, Day probably lasts until 3/3 1645 mst, because every single Day absolutely must be dragged to the last second and include panicked EoD screaming
EWWW.
Sorry. Just owed you that. And yeah ZDS is right. Wasn't like a hard "dudes caught scum whats up", more of a "sketchy stuff I noticed" post.
Your KJ opinion is super non-committal. Why don't you have reads? Why didn't you push for Grape?
Nice cop-out. Totally OMGUS guys, nothing to see here. Move along.
Maybe Day drags out because some players refuse to do any pushing whatsoever until it's convenient for their team. Town want all the information they can get. Which side are you on?
{SNIP Sloth's Dank KCC Evaluation}
So…yeah, I’m still on Zion because I don’t learn my lessons (shut up, Ter). But I can see a world where he and KCC are partners.
What I want to know is…am I just talking nonsense? I wanna hear from people that have played with her.
No nonsense, I think you're totally right. I thought maybe I was crazy or just that out of touch when no one else saw this stuff. I've played with KCC in the before-times.
Starts with a lot of steam, and it kinda just waffles out for…not good enough reasons, at least in my opinion. Doesn’t feel like she had that much belief in it.[/b]
It wasn't a super strong scum read, just a post that felt off and worth investigating
Yet there's like a trillion other posts you aren't investigating. It's because the effort isn't worth it until the deadline apparently.
Right.
[b]I messaged that kj was scum to my cellmates right after i saw that first post.
I dont think kj knew.
So grape/terraine not his buddies.[/b]
Initial vote for vaimes was for being partnery <with kj>
It still mostly works, but my strongest kjbuddy read is now kcc.
But let's not count our chickens before kj flips scum
[B]vote kj[/b]
No joke, on this current deep read I legit thought you just outed a scum daychat and felt very betrayed. Like How Dare You Tom! Then I read the rules and was like "ohh I didn't know I could do that."
Made me realize that if you are scum right now, I'm just auto lynching you from now on. Better than risk being enchanted by your presence and blinded by the glorious light.
...Yea I'm not super into the idea of this being a lock.
A jokey post at day start locking your view in kinda screams conf bias at me...the lack of reasoning beyond meta makes the screaming louder.
Say you're right Tom and KJ flips scum....Have you seen any indicators of who is working with him?
This is a really good point on Confirmation Bias, and what info we'd even gain from it. I don't necessarily agree but I like that these are being asked.
I'm not big on sheeping based on meta. I'd like to see a content argument.
I felt like there currently is a content argument, but too many are dismissive because 'meta'. I like that you're unwilling to sheep solely based on this.
Tom, you realize my entire personality isn't entirely "crotchety buzzkill", right?
A good portion is stupid jokes.
I think if tom is scum he accidently revealed that the scum have daychat. He thinks I should know he's scumreading me during the Day due ot the notes he sent to his cellmates.
Dude, we should have been passing notes. That sounds amazing; pretend I sent you some crude stick figures.
I'm gonna guess KJ didn't know we could do this either.
1) But why are you sure enough that's not the case to lynch him?
2) What do we do if we hit that failcase? Who looks Town or Scum in light of a kjtown flip? I feel like we'd go into D2 and just be like "yup, kj beefed this game up" because that's usually how metamislynching goes.
These are good questions. But I still don't trust you.
were back to me knowing kj and having expectations of him.
The hallmark of his new playstyle is trying new things to see what works for him. Its considering from multiple angles, staying nimble and out of tunnels.
But sure. If hes town:
i think i should probably be a wagon tomorrow. Im right often enough as town and powerwolf consistently enough as scum that i deserve some pressure if my main push flips town
I would want to look at GJ. Ge joined the wagon but made sure all the blame for his vote was on me.
I would want to look at kcc regardless of kj flip because i think her positioning around the wagon looks agenday
I also think tubbas read on kj prolly makes him town regardless of if its right.
I agree with all of this except Tubba, I'm not sold on him but also unwilling to lynch because it's Michael Scott. Currently reading GJ as town but agree that it's sketch if KJ is town.
I think what I need to do is stop trying to find scum and focus all my efforts on finding town, then PoE from there.
That can be my new project.
Sounds like something scum would do/say. But I'm not sure on that yet. I just think finding town is too easy to do sometimes, and you should have been PoEing the whole time.
[b]Tom:[/b] Are you sure tubba is town? He's not... fluffing as much as he usually does. I seem to recall needing to pull teeth to get reads out of him at one point.
Prison Mike isn't fluffing? (X) Doubt. But I agree I'm not committed to him being Town just yet.
@KJ your interactions with Zionite early. They weren't actively scummy but the thing where you tried to figure out what voice he was RP'ing as felt performative. Like you were trying to look curious rather than actually interested.
This is a valid point that I totally missed because I was involved.
I don't think I have ever townread Tubba in any game I have played with him, regardless of his actual alignment. Roleplay aside, I am willing to just defer on the consensus for him this entire game.
That's no good, I was counting on you to make the call for me. I guess it's a project for another Day.
I'm seeing things that could be from being scum, but nothing yet I couldn't see reasonable town explanations for
That's the entire point of the game. Very rarely short of a red check is there some objective wolfy thing someone does. Even from your perspective, could a reasonable town explaination for Zionite is taking him at his word that he had no motivation due to the ***** posting/lack of game play. I have the same early game awkwardness.
This is pretty obviously where I am if you're reading my posts. Maybe closer to: KJ might be a wolf, but I could still see him as town, and am far more confident on Zion
I clearly am since I brought this up, but the issue is twofold: 1). Zionite wagon stalled at 4 votes, and people are looking for another wagon. KJ sprung up as one of those potential wagons, and I don't see an active push from you to either solve KJ or try to get people to stick to the Zionite wagon. The interest is clearly not there unless concessions are made. KJ seems like a wagon per earlier comments you might have had an interest in, and you seemed hedgey, when this feels like it's a wet dream scenario for you. I wish every game I played in had two of my wolf reads as competing wagons.
Now despite the last paragraph, you said you were going over his reads. I am curious to see what your thoughts are.
I notice Zi is gone for a lengthier amount of time than normal. Did he say anything about being unable to post for a bit?
Also, I seem to recall a mention that when caught as scum, he kind of lurks and stops posting as much?
#SlothbackonhisBS
I just underestimated how much was stacking up around here while I got busy. Yes, I've been known to do that. But I assure you, this case is merely a coincidence. And I'm aware that is unconvincing as hell. That's okay for now. I see you.
Also, can I say how much it's weirding me out that apparently 90% of the players are legitimately townreading me? I don't know what to do about it.
Hell, last time I was this strongly townread was in a game where I turned out to be scum and I think everyone had a secret meeting where it was agreed to neverallow it to happen again, 'cause it hasn't since.
Well now I'm suspicious of this humble-brag for the second time. I don't have time for two town reads to go rogue. Don't make me come after you and somehow interpret your townie posts as scummy, because I can and will!
As far as tom goes. I would only be suspicious of him for the same reason you should be suspicious of me: In wolf Zionite world. Neither me nor tom as wolves would charge on KJ (if he were town) if Zionite was a town player already getting strung up. Why draw the attention and blow all that credit for a town mislynch if the game was already on town mislynch?
Also, what scummy line are you talking about? I just saw that as asking how hyperbolic you were about spitroasting tom.
I mean. My vote hasn't moved.
However, you shouldn't tell me there's no scenario where scum!Tom (or you) does this if Zi's town: Votes are stalling, wagon was losing steam, etc.
Everyone 100% saw coming because we've all played mafia before and I'm sure no one can name a game where a seemingly strong wagon hasn't fizzled out around the midpoint mark of the Day. Any experienced mafia player would have known this was coming and, as scum, prepared for it; plus, as noted, Tom locked himself into KJ.
People were asking for a counterwagon and one was given. Even if it flips green, it's not necessarily damning for the one that propelled it (though I intend to make sure it is.)
Also there's the KCC factor: In a world where Zi is town and KCC is scum, it was around this time that the noose was starting to close in on her (when, again, people were wanting a counterwagon) so better give them a town one (KJ) before your buddy (KCC) is propped up.
That's the thing about me, I can easily come up with a scenario with layers. And the thing is, the above isn't even that unlikely.
Certainly more likely than KCC and Zi being scumpartners - which I already brought up in an earlier post how I think it's not outside the realm of possibility.
If everyone took that approach to the game, wouldn't that be problematic?
If everyone took that approach to everyone, yes, that's ridiculous
I'm obviously not advocating that. I'm saying I'm not going to waste my time engaging KJ in ways that are both unnecessary and not helpful to me in reading him
No, you seemingly aren't trying to change it. But what you seem to be doing is pushing away from KJ, but leaving yourself room to jump on.
I am absolutely not pushing away from KJ. I think he's under the perfect amount of pressure atm. But if I add my vote to him, that's a death sentence, and I'm so not there
Lovely as it is to watch you both duke it out, any feedback on my last two posts?
They're fine? I liked your approach to weighing Tom, but I'm not super interested in trying to solve either of you right now, so
EWWWW.
I get one more. Saving it for when it counts.
So hold up, you don't really engage with anyone unless they ask you questions. I get that. But then why is it okay to not dig into KJ? Like the mindset of going one-on-one with specifics doesn't really jive with you not reciprocating that. Or is it that you preferred to talk with me instead and weren't able to? I just don't like the shade you're throwing and the sheer refusal to scum hunt in two sentences on this post alone. He wasn't asking for you to vote, he's bringing up a valid point that you're not trying to change anyone's mind as if you know you're wrong from the start.
Indeed. It's why I'm askin....wanted to make sure I'm not putting things into easily hammer territory and risk ending D1 super early.
[b]Vote: Zion[/b]
You're good, I earned it.
You made it through this whole post, you're a champ. Thanks for reading. Cross this one off the todo list and give me the rest of the night off, please and thank you.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Flarg is putting a ton of effort into questioning the KJ wagon, and I can't tell if it's just me, but I don't think he's done any of that for Zionite. "What makes Zionite scum and not just town having an off game?" and such. I don't get it.
Here's a neat KJ meta nugget: he tends to ask questions that are either annoyingly thorough or somewhat redundant. It's one of those scummy traits that aren't really scummy coming from KJ.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Man, I was ready to drag GJ for wanting to CFD Flarg but now I'm thinking he was just ahead of his time. I'm looking at Flarg's approach to the Zionite wagon vs. the KJ wagon and going ????????.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Oh right. I wanted someone to post a VC because I was lazy.
s>v Grapefuit21, GJ, tom, Tubba
"Tubba is more proactive as scum" is....a possible thing, but probably not. tom kinda locked himself into pushing KJ, which I don't see as a scum ploy. GJ and Grape are both kinda eh, I think GJ is townier. Grape kinda came out swinging when he pushed Jack, but since then it's been crickets.
Oh right. I wanted someone to post a VC because I was lazy.
s>v Grapefuit21, GJ, tom, Tubba
"Tubba is more proactive as scum" is....a possible thing, but probably not. tom kinda locked himself into pushing KJ, which I don't see as a scum ploy. GJ and Grape are both kinda eh, I think GJ is townier. Grape kinda came out swinging when he pushed Jack, but since then it's been crickets.
I... agree with I think everything this post says. Neat.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
However, you shouldn't tell me there's no scenario where scum!Tom (or you) does this if Zi's town: Votes are stalling, wagon was losing steam, etc.
Everyone 100% saw coming because we've all played mafia before and I'm sure no one can name a game where a seemingly strong wagon hasn't fizzled out around the midpoint mark of the Day. Any experienced mafia player would have known this was coming and, as scum, prepared for it; plus, as noted, Tom locked himself into KJ.
People were asking for a counterwagon and one was given. Even if it flips green, it's not necessarily damning for the one that propelled it (though I intend to make sure it is.)
Also there's the KCC factor: In a world where Zi is town and KCC is scum, it was around this time that the noose was starting to close in on her (when, again, people were wanting a counterwagon) so better give them a town one (KJ) before your buddy (KCC) is propped up.
That's the thing about me, I can easily come up with a scenario with layers. And the thing is, the above isn't even that unlikely.
Certainly more likely than KCC and Zi being scumpartners - which I already brought up in an earlier post how I think it's not outside the realm of possibility.
My problem in the game is that I focus on WiFOM a lot and I keep trying to think 10 steps ahead, and I expect other players to do the same, which is not always the case.
I would say Occam's Razor scenarios are the ones that usually trip me up.
What do you mean by what scummy line? Link me to the post you're referencing?
Not a chance
If everyone took that approach to everyone, yes, that's ridiculous
I'm obviously not advocating that. I'm saying I'm not going to waste my time engaging KJ in ways that are both unnecessary and not helpful to me in reading him
I am absolutely not pushing away from KJ. I think he's under the perfect amount of pressure atm. But if I add my vote to him, that's a death sentence, and I'm so not there They're fine? I liked your approach to weighing Tom, but I'm not super interested in trying to solve either of you right now, so
I am trying to read between invoices, unfortunately difficult, but I couldn't find what this was referring to. You asked me and KCC to analyze your last few posts, and I am attempting to do so. But unless you are strictly talking about a world where KJ flips town, and tom is a wolf, I don't get it.
There is no scenario where I call it a town wagon, refuse to support it, and then bullrush into another townie if Zionite is town. WIFOM it may be, but it makes no logical sense. I can't speak for tom, but when I have seen him dig hard into a player has come from town tom more than wolf tom. Wolf tom pushes but I never feel like he runs point on those situations.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You said it yourself...I chose to wait on specifics til I saw others had them too...I know I can fixate on stupid small details so increases my confidence if I see I'm not the only one its bothers. Otherwise I'm just adding more distracting noise.
The "scummy line" sentence was a misunderstanding: It wasn't a line from Tom that I went "this is a line that has scum-intent", rather a line with the word "scummy" literally in it. See the spoiler below:
If nothing else, I'm relatively certain that you and Tom can't be scum together.
TIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLT
(I don't get how to post images here that aren't broken. The last one was a glitch)
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I think this is the most updated one as of #858 - are you ever going to vote, btw?
Hm. Where's Rhand been?
@GJ: how likely you find the scenario assuming a scum!tom?
Indeed. It's why I'm askin....wanted to make sure I'm not putting things into easily hammer territory and risk ending D1 super early.
Vote: Zion
@Mod: I'm correct on this, right? No Hard Lynch?
Also if you have any further thoughts not in your previous posts, I want to hear them.
I took this to mean that if we hit majority then its done.
(/fluff until I get off work, doubles are fun)
Also - @Ter, um wow. I did not consider that's what that might mean. ...Well, good thing it was avoided if so!
What do you mean "how likely"? Are you asking me how likely I think your tom is wolf scenario is?
I understand the points your bring up. He sounds super confidant in some points, and seems balkish at some points. I am typically more balkish than anyone because I don't objectively know anyone's alignment, so I can see why he might be sure or not. What he is saying if he is a wolf is that he had a plan, almost pregame it sounds like to go for KJ. That feels ballsy as hell. I think tom relies on meta way too much, but I can understand his conviction if he is town, and think he has KJ,
KJ to me comes off as posting a lot without saying anything. That sounds a lot like my read of vaimes, and that isn't a coicedence. No bodies, no power roles to check, so really everything here is speculation until bodies start turning.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
So a lot of stuff happened and I’m eager to get into it longform but just posting a quick one for now to get impressions down. I hate mobile posting but it’s got its upsides.
I really expected to see more votes on me coming back but I think it has to do with my activity. Been busy with work stuff. I’ll also have a V/LA Coming up 3/4-3/11 but if the 3/3 deadline is true doesn’t seem like there will be an issue there. But yeah I don’t get to spend 4 hours on one post every time like I used to. Maybe that’s better for reading anyway.
So I’m cool with barning Tom because he’s pretty sharp, and I think he might be right on KJ. I have some reservations here that I need to do an independent read to evaluate but so far I’m on board. I feel like if I validate Tom too much he will end up the NK and then I can’t barn him anymore lol. But yeah I think I could learn a lot from KJ flipping because there’s some serious resistance going on with “oh it’s a meta read total trash” and could be some manipulation there.
I’m not totally dropping KCC because I felt the frustration from me not being around from a scum mindset. Like I remember being scum going after someone right before a VLA and being like “crap what now?” Feels like if you’re not doggedly pursuing your top suspect you get all self critical and don’t know what to do with yourself. I can see that happening here.
On that topic I noticed a couple of players mentioning they also saw some scummy stuff with KCC but didn’t really pile on the wagon. Don’t know how to feel about that but I think ZDS’ comments about my lack of enthusiasm is probably the issue. Which is true, I’m not wild about it or 100% sure, but I thought it had more substance than the Jackrito push at least. Could be that KCC has some scum buddies distancing but not enough to bus at one vote. Definitely not reading a ton of town vibe happening.
Someone else mentioned I should get a complete list of reads together if I’m expecting to go down, and whether I do or not I think that’s a great idea and I’ve got quite a bit to work with on most players.
I’m getting kind of self conscious about players buddying with me, like objectively I should have been lynched already but are we dealing with scum smart enough to save low hanging fruit til later Days when it’s worth more? I think the scum team is smart, experienced. That’s why I haven’t been lynched yet, but I will be eventually.
That’s it for now. More later today or possibly tomorrow if I get busy again.
It’s almost impossible to have a read without taking meta into account and previous history. I think players aren’t giving it enough credit and are overly dismissive instead of pointing out why they think KJ is town.
Please stand by struggling with the quote coding and this ******* FORUM DELETING CHUNKS OF WHAT I WRITE.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
#382 contains my original case.
since then he just seems to go on the defensive a lot…spends a big chunk of time railing like so…
So all this is…just a mess to me. One of his biggest posts is a charge against jack about the hedging….only to turn in 480 and say this isn’t an indicator….
Then why spend so long harping on it? Either he’s being inconsistent or hyper defensive of himself instead of actually scum hunting.
Then when you press him on it he comes back with….
At no point do I see him say “Hey I realize I’m wrong about alignment and hedging despite my early Jack offense” he just says well yea that was my point as if he always held it. That’s not openly saying your backtracking its backtracking quietly until you’re called on it.
Only answers half this. quote keeps breaking in preview and Im declaring ****it I dont care.
…holy defensive spiral batman. He just doesn’t seem to be doing anything other than “"I'm town you gotta believe me. Why don’t you believe me!?” Like I see very little in ways of scum hunting unless its about the wagon on him or people voting him (#604)
Cop out. Basically tries to put a dismiss any opinions or questions of his actions in one of his major posts. Feels like when someone gives an opinion on a topic and when the other party takes offense or pushes back they come back with “Oh it was just a joke” so they can end any further looking into it.
I know the quotes aren't coded right. I'm done trying to fix it.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Killjoy (5): Tubba Fett, Vaimes, Tomsloger, Gentleman Johnny, Grapefuit21
Zionite (5): Slothful, FlargBlarg, Jackrito, KittyCupCake, YWFMLF
Grapefruit21 (1): Rhand
tomsloger (1): Lastwhisper
KittyCupCake (1): Zionite
Not Voting (2): ZeDorkSlipeur, Killjoy
With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline is March 3rd at 1700 MST.
My apologies for the delayed votecounts, I will aim to get them out more frequently. Please let me know if a vote was missed.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
KCC: Well lets try this: How do you usually read me? What do you look for in town KJ that's not here? Because you seem to scumreading me for what is here but is not in other games, which is the opposite of that, so.
@Last: Actually, have you ever seen wolf!me? I don't think I've ever been a wolf opposite you.
Tubba: It's not a playstyle shift per se, as it's not something that's something that's gonna happen with any real frequency. I mean, I don't blame people for thinking I'm actively different this game, I can see it. I just looked over the past few games looking to see how quickly KCC could townread me, and made a note that I was a lot more serious in those games for the most part. I do blame my wagon for assigning alignment differences for that, but not really doing much to prove it. Tom is an exception to this, which is why I'm willing to reevaluate there.
As for why I was different this game, I... don't actually know. I was just really excited to play.
Sloth: Actually daychat, until fairly recently (past few years?) has been uncommon here. Mostly it's been limited to bigger/complex games. It's certainly possible. I just thought that tom made the conclusion without it being certain.
For ZDS: He has one post with any content, and that post has not a lot of reads. It's 642. He's not fully caught up even. That's not enough for a good read on the slot unless it's PoE and I don't have nearly enough townreads for that. If we had flips I might be able to extrapolate from there, but for now, no. There's no read.
Also, actually, can you send me to a scum game of yours?
How likely do you see a GJ/KCC world here? I'm currently not.
GJ: I do agree with Sloth that hbomberguy is a good listen. If you like D&D there's several podcasts of people just playing. Critical Role is a good one, as it's pretty professionally done.
Zionite: I'd like you to outline your read on me in full please. Why I'm scum, reservations you have, etc. You seem to be talking yourself into joining my wagon and I'm not sure why. Also in 872, you seem to be saying that people aren't giving meta arguments enough credit, but then say people aren't talking enough about why they think I'm town, which doesn't seem to make sense with the previous sentence?
It's also possible I jumped too early into town!Zionite mode after looking at the VC. I could absolutely be a counterwagon to Zionite, and Zionite is off voting in the middle of nowhere (on a player that might be scum) so I wanna poke that bear a bit more as well.
Catch up long-form
Unleash demons on my enemiesCome up with an actual defense for terrible playGive KJ a good hard look
Do a legit T/S list with the fancy colors before getting lynched for the terrible play
Why wouldn't you start one? Surely I'm not the only scum right? This feels real odd coming from a town-read of mine and now IGMEOY.
Yeah sorry the links broke and I was so proud lol. I think it was in the very next link on that one instead. Basically you accused someone of trying to hard to look engaged which I found funny because the same could be applied to your post.
I lol'd hard at this. Sooo true.
Okay fine, I'll let you do what you want on this one. No more passes though.
It wasn't even pressure, the voters on YWFMLF weren't even trying. Same for your vote on Grape; not even trying. If you were scum hunting the fact I missed your vote was RVS would have been priority #1. That involves yourself, it's a misrep, and it's an indication I'm not paying attention. The simplest explanation is that you know I'm town. I'm not buying it.
You said "if that's the main reason" when you know it's not the main reason because "if". Falls in line with the rest of the fanning the flames I've seen from you, and apparently I'm not the only one.
Hmmm, okay okay. Maybe I did do that.
I'm saying the initial question you posed wasn't good. Gave me scum-vibes, didn't sit well with me, all that.
What other list would there have been in discussion? I mean I assume he didn't read the whole games but even skimming and looking at the first post alignment flips is pretty useful. And if he was making it up well, maybe you should care more about that as town.
Flarg stop being scummy it's seriously throwing me off now.
2. You're entitled to have that view and I'm happy to see that you have it. But I made a play and stick by it, even if it's wrong. I wanted to demonstrate to myself and others that fence-sitting doesn't really matter at this stage of the game. DO judge me on it.
3. Man, at this point it's going to require rereading Grape. There was something there but I forgot.
4. I liked YWFMLF's solvy bits, or at least that they were being attempted. But yeah I guess you're asking me to go through each post and show how my view changed, which simply isn't going to happen at this point because I mean, look at my todo list. I'll get to it as I'm going through a T/S list I'm sure.
Damn I missed you GJ. Agree.
If you admit my play has been uh, rusty, then the town reads on the wagon make sense. Or at least that's how I've been parsing it.
EWWW.
Sorry. Just owed you that. And yeah ZDS is right. Wasn't like a hard "dudes caught scum whats up", more of a "sketchy stuff I noticed" post.
Your KJ opinion is super non-committal. Why don't you have reads? Why didn't you push for Grape?
Nice cop-out. Totally OMGUS guys, nothing to see here. Move along.
Maybe Day drags out because some players refuse to do any pushing whatsoever until it's convenient for their team. Town want all the information they can get. Which side are you on?
Who's CFD? No one ever introduced me to Al either.
But could this be? A Zio-GJ mind meld?
Oof, no GJ! I was closer to 70/30. The syncing process is incomplete.
No nonsense, I think you're totally right. I thought maybe I was crazy or just that out of touch when no one else saw this stuff. I've played with KCC in the before-times.
Yet there's like a trillion other posts you aren't investigating. It's because the effort isn't worth it until the deadline apparently.
No joke, on this current deep read I legit thought you just outed a scum daychat and felt very betrayed. Like How Dare You Tom! Then I read the rules and was like "ohh I didn't know I could do that."
Made me realize that if you are scum right now, I'm just auto lynching you from now on. Better than risk being enchanted by your presence and blinded by the glorious light.
I continue to have bad vibes from Flarg.
This is a really good point on Confirmation Bias, and what info we'd even gain from it. I don't necessarily agree but I like that these are being asked.
I felt like there currently is a content argument, but too many are dismissive because 'meta'. I like that you're unwilling to sheep solely based on this.
Name anything objectively scummy so I can take notes. Very dismissive.
Dude, we should have been passing notes. That sounds amazing; pretend I sent you some crude stick figures.
I'm gonna guess KJ didn't know we could do this either.
These are good questions. But I still don't trust you.
I agree with all of this except Tubba, I'm not sold on him but also unwilling to lynch because it's Michael Scott. Currently reading GJ as town but agree that it's sketch if KJ is town.
Sounds like something scum would do/say. But I'm not sure on that yet. I just think finding town is too easy to do sometimes, and you should have been PoEing the whole time.
Prison Mike isn't fluffing? (X) Doubt. But I agree I'm not committed to him being Town just yet.
This is a valid point that I totally missed because I was involved.
That's no good, I was counting on you to make the call for me. I guess it's a project for another Day.
BOOM. GJ is the man.
I just underestimated how much was stacking up around here while I got busy. Yes, I've been known to do that. But I assure you, this case is merely a coincidence. And I'm aware that is unconvincing as hell. That's okay for now. I see you.
Well now I'm suspicious of this humble-brag for the second time. I don't have time for two town reads to go rogue. Don't make me come after you and somehow interpret your townie posts as scummy, because I can and will!
You're both right.
EWWWW.
I get one more. Saving it for when it counts.
So hold up, you don't really engage with anyone unless they ask you questions. I get that. But then why is it okay to not dig into KJ? Like the mindset of going one-on-one with specifics doesn't really jive with you not reciprocating that. Or is it that you preferred to talk with me instead and weren't able to? I just don't like the shade you're throwing and the sheer refusal to scum hunt in two sentences on this post alone. He wasn't asking for you to vote, he's bringing up a valid point that you're not trying to change anyone's mind as if you know you're wrong from the start.
You're good, I earned it.
You made it through this whole post, you're a champ. Thanks for reading. Cross this one off the todo list and give me the rest of the night off, please and thank you.
CFD=Chinese Fire Drill. Spontaneous wagon on someone else.
AI=alignment indicative.
I'll look at this wall fully later.
Flarg is putting a ton of effort into questioning the KJ wagon, and I can't tell if it's just me, but I don't think he's done any of that for Zionite. "What makes Zionite scum and not just town having an off game?" and such. I don't get it.
I seem to have forgot to put KCC the second time.
Also why would you randomly stick that tier in your readslist.
This is kind of just a random soulread.
Everyone else in Onderland/Abstainia is pardoned because they're in the process of catching up or reevaluating.
s>v Grapefuit21, GJ, tom, Tubba
"Tubba is more proactive as scum" is....a possible thing, but probably not. tom kinda locked himself into pushing KJ, which I don't see as a scum ploy. GJ and Grape are both kinda eh, I think GJ is townier. Grape kinda came out swinging when he pushed Jack, but since then it's been crickets.
@Vaimes: What do you think of KCC in that list?