I’ll post more later just keeping up with reading.
I definitely didn’t remember KCCs vote was RVS. I’m also feeling less confident KCC is town.
Tom is either really good at reads or scum going for points because “he knew” I’m town. I’m going with town and really good.
Jack wanting to Lynch Flarg for info was bad. I was even kind of second guessing going in on my last post but I figured it was already done and totally valid. Still is. My whole point was that hedging and lack of commitment isn’t necessarily and indicator of alignment. I also wanted to see how players responded. I still think he could be scum but less so now.
Also feeling better about Last whisper and Laser Letters given recent posts. I prefer the walls occasionally.
Grape seemed to drop Jack kinda fast, felt he was going harder than I was. I’m less confident in Grape now.
I think I should barn Tom on Vaimes because I’ve consistently liked his posts the most. Then later actually read Vaimes to see if it’s a good bet to run up. But with players like sloth hung up on me it might be worth running myself up just to get it over with.
But yes, now the thread is getting juicy.
I actually can't believe how much you have backtracked on this and it bothers me. This looks like you just gave into peer pressure then actual belief, which is not normal for town to do.
Also stop flipping on reads for no reason explain to me how you did not know KCC was a RVS vote when it was their first post, also what about them was town, and what changed. I need to understand the logic here. Since the same flip happened with Grape.
Post about Tom knowing you are town bothers me because it just comes across as a way to try and tell people you are town indirectly rather then add anything. I know I also did this in regards to KCC but I'a hypocrite like I said.
I'm started to get annoyed with this Flarge info thing as well, since it lasted a total of 20 mins and I never even went anywhere with it, how much people bring it up makes it seem like I voted him and still want him dead. I explained why I said what I did and stand by it even if wrong.
Also what makes me less scum and why did Wisp and lazer go up as well don't throw at blank statements with no reasons. Also you are doing same thing you want to scumread grape on.
Finally surely you should have own reasons to vote Vaimes instead of following Tom and what posts did you like by Tom in the first place, I'm also not letting last part which is a slight ATE pass about being run up by sloth so.
Vote : Zionite
You are being even more hedgey then me in this post, and backtracking far too much.
Actually though, is there something specific bothering you? I don’t accept you hand waving all of my posts as nothing, or how it’s even relevant.
I said what was bothering me. I am not hand waving your posts away, I just see them as fluff posting without actually attempting to game solve. If the day were to end in 5 minutes, I am voting who I want gone right now.
As far as how its relevant. The entire point of this game is to solve or try to look like your solving. I don't feel like you are solving. You received my vote. I haven't played in a while, but I think that's what you are supposed to do?
Just wanted to point out me saying why they are not in the POE does not mean I want them lynched. More wanting to know why others do not. If you don't pressure low posters they have no reason to step it up.
Also on the other part they is too much focus on my Flarge view espically since it lasted about 20 mins and I changed to a town read after reading them over.
In regards to it though I don't think doing a lynch for info and interactions off them is bad day one
This is what I don’t get. It's right there in the last line! Lynches can give info based on interactions that person had through out the day. That is literally the point of saying flarg is a "good lynch"
It’s common sense. WHY would we lynch someone who’s had no interactions? This early on, a shot in the dark style lynch does not have probability on our side for scum flip. If they town flip, then we’ve just culled our numbers for no reason. Regardless of alignment we get no info from lynching an inactive D1 because they haven’t talked to anyone for us to comb through and see people’s reactions. Ergo they get removed from PoE until we have something to GAIN from it.
My issue with the post isn't about Flarg, KCC or Tubba. Its straight up a disconnect between saying "I understand how lynch active for info works" and "I don't understand why you don't consider inactives for lynching." in the same post.
I already answered this in 438 that I wanted to know what took them out of the lynch pool for some people, if we don't pressure them they never do anything. At no point did I say to lynch them, I just don't enjoy people getting free passes. How long do you give them. I have had far too many games where low posting scum win because left alone for reasons like this. You cant get info from silence, and people who defend them sometimes are scum teammates. This is perhaps a site culture issue as well. In my view day ones which are a lot shorter on my site you either take a chance on a inactive or lynch for info if no one has become obv. Here we have a lot more time so both clearly don't work, since you can work people out more and take less blind shots. Its not a disconnect its just having two different views at the same time either though both are vastly different but can work in own way. It all depends on the situation
I already answered this in 438 that I wanted to know what took them out of the lynch pool for some people, if we don't pressure them they never do anything. At no point did I say to lynch them, I just don't enjoy people getting free passes. How long do you give them. I have had far too many games where low posting scum win because left alone for reasons like this. You cant get info from silence, and people who defend them sometimes are scum teammates. This is perhaps a site culture issue as well. In my view day ones which are a lot shorter on my site you either take a chance on a inactive or lynch for info if no one has become obv. Here we have a lot more time so both clearly don't work, since you can work people out more and take less blind shots. Its not a disconnect its just having two different views at the same time either though both are vastly different but can work in own way. It all depends on the situation
And I keep laying out why this doesn't make sense. I did not say you want them lynched. I did not say don't pressure them. I'm saying that it's obvious that in POE pool you're not going to include people who's lynches actively wont help town at this point in time. If you grasp lynching someone for info based on their activity it doesn't make sense to me that you don't grasp that lynching a blank slate currently gets us nothing.
Actually though, is there something specific bothering you? I don’t accept you hand waving all of my posts as nothing, or how it’s even relevant.
I said what was bothering me. I am not hand waving your posts away, I just see them as fluff posting without actually attempting to game solve. If the day were to end in 5 minutes, I am voting who I want gone right now.
As far as how its relevant. The entire point of this game is to solve or try to look like your solving. I don't feel like you are solving. You received my vote. I haven't played in a while, but I think that's what you are supposed to do?
Days since I’ve been told I’m both fluffing too much and not enough: 0
You are applying irrelevant meta to me, and I will ignore it accordingly.
Would you like to do something productive with me? Make something beautiful together? I’m open to suggestions.
Actually though, is there something specific bothering you? I don’t accept you hand waving all of my posts as nothing, or how it’s even relevant.
I said what was bothering me. I am not hand waving your posts away, I just see them as fluff posting without actually attempting to game solve. If the day were to end in 5 minutes, I am voting who I want gone right now.
As far as how its relevant. The entire point of this game is to solve or try to look like your solving. I don't feel like you are solving. You received my vote. I haven't played in a while, but I think that's what you are supposed to do?
Days since I’ve been told I’m both fluffing too much and not enough: 0
You are applying irrelevant meta to me, and I will ignore it accordingly.
Would you like to do something productive with me? Make something beautiful together? I’m open to suggestions.
How often do I actually use meta and how vocal am I about being antimeta when I played....months ago, a year? I can't even tell you the last time I played a game. I remember bits and pieces.
Tell you what Vaimes, because I admit I struggle terribly with memory issues.
I do know you can be fluffy. Since I take your comment to be an implication that what I am picking on you for is pretty null as far as your alignment goes, how do I look at you and seperate town vaimes from wolf vaimes?
You were also pro No Lunch, but I imagine that’s changed?
Think you’re better off asking other people how to read me. Maybe someone you townread who also has experience with me, if you can find someone.
Except tom, he’s fired from reading me after that awful multiball game.
I can self-meta only if you think it’ll be useful, otherwise what’s the point.
I remember that. I mostly did that as a meme to the habbit mtgs would get into about someone always asking for a massclaim day 1. I saw no lynch as the opposite of that for information.
I think it would help to self meta. Obvious grain of salt is obvious, but what should I look for? I think it can be useful for a different reason.
Now theres a lot of discussion of hedging in this game. Its inevitable when you have a game full of players that think things through from several directions (grape, jack, zion, me but i dont say most of it out loud, etc) along with players that are more decisive (last, gj, rhand, somehow also me, etc)
But with the extreme ends mentioned above its gonna be more playstyle than alignment. So if you want to get reliable reads off of relative hedginess, you want to start in the middle.
Jack isn’t a lock. I think his posting is pure-ish. I liked how up front he was about liking playing scum, and the play here doesn’t reeeally support that meta (which I’m gonna take at face-value unless Last contradicts it).
Here, the hedginess is expositional only- "jack isnt a lock"
But everything he has to say is highly positive.
This could mean a few things.
If vaimes is town, its likely floating/unexplained background thinking about how jack seems like someone that would post similar to this regardless of alignment, so hes taking all his positives with a grain of salt. This is totally viable.
But its not the first thing i thought. Because as scum theres possible agenda (leaving outs in the read for whatever reason) or a possible sign of TMI (basically he adds in that hedge because hes not starting from <doesnt know jacks alignment but is gaining positive opinions> but rather <knows jacks town but doesnt want to say it outright>)
Lucky for you, we haven't reached 5000 posts on Day 1 yet.
I know we've played together before 2019, did something happen to your old account?
It was nuked in reaction to GDPR.
--
I'm caught up speedreading-wise but if I don't read slowly the posts all blend together. Slowreadingandtakingnotes-wise I have reached page 5. I'm seeing interesting things. I hope I don't go mad before I can share them with the town.
You were also pro No Lunch, but I imagine that’s changed?
Think you’re better off asking other people how to read me. Maybe someone you townread who also has experience with me, if you can find someone.
Except tom, he’s fired from reading me after that awful multiball game.
I can self-meta only if you think it’ll be useful, otherwise what’s the point.
I remember that. I mostly did that as a meme to the habbit mtgs would get into about someone always asking for a massclaim day 1. I saw no lynch as the opposite of that for information.
I think it would help to self meta. Obvious grain of salt is obvious, but what should I look for? I think it can be useful for a different reason.
I want to look at past games so I’ll get back to you.
Yeahhh, tom, you’re reaching hard. It would be one thing if I have a wishy-washy opinion, but someone asked me why I Jack as lock town when I never said that.
That is not a hedge? Do I not know what hedge means?
i mean hedging is bad mafia terminology for contradicting yourself.
The main takeaway from that post should be "reading people for hedging is meaningless go deeper"
Yeahhh, tom, you’re reaching hard. It would be one thing if I have a wishy-washy opinion, but someone asked me why I Jack as lock town when I never said that.
i def missed that context. Possibly further illustrating my point
Jack isn’t a lock. I think his posting is pure-ish. I liked how up front he was about liking playing scum, and the play here doesn’t reeeally support that meta (which I’m gonna take at face-value unless Last contradicts it).
Pure in what sense? I don't see someone being a pure, but I do see someone trying to understand players' mindsets
if you tell Jack someone is a wolf, what he will do, is go back, and find reason to agree with it, that you are wrong, or say the evidence is still inconclusive
this post isolated from the rest doesnt really show me why you should like him
Actually though, is there something specific bothering you? I don’t accept you hand waving all of my posts as nothing, or how it’s even relevant.
I said what was bothering me. I am not hand waving your posts away, I just see them as fluff posting without actually attempting to game solve. If the day were to end in 5 minutes, I am voting who I want gone right now.
As far as how its relevant. The entire point of this game is to solve or try to look like your solving. I don't feel like you are solving. You received my vote. I haven't played in a while, but I think that's what you are supposed to do?
Days since I’ve been told I’m both fluffing too much and not enough: 0
You are applying irrelevant meta to me, and I will ignore it accordingly.
Would you like to do something productive with me? Make something beautiful together? I’m open to suggestions.
How is this "irrelevant meta"? Not saying I agree or disagree with the assertion that you're posting and not being solve-y, but that's a pretty good indicator of Scum in general. That's not meta against you, that's just what Scum often do because they have TMI to solve.
Prefacing this by noting that I did no additional re-read before doing it.
I'm also working under the assumption that each cell could contain 1 scum, just for convenient PoE reasons.
Also, don't take town/scum reads as strong or light. Unless I'm voting for you.
So.
A. Grapefuit21 - eh, willing to vote.
A. Tomsloger - haven't ISO'd yet, but almost exactly as willing to vote as I am Grape, actually.
A. YWFMLF - townread, won't vote this phase.
B. Gentleman Johnny - townread, won't vote this phase.
B. Killjoy - eh. Won't vote this phase.
B. Zionite - currently AM voting and keep being given reasons to do so.
C. Lastwhisper - townread, won't vote this phase. (watch for pockets)
C. Slothful - This ****er's always up to something.
C. Tubba Fett - *
D. Jackrito - townread, won't vote this phase (also watch for pockets)
D. KittyCupCake - eh. Won't vote this phase, though I'm waiting on responses from her.
D. ZeDorkSlipeur - ??? Do something.
E. FlargBlarg - townread, won't vote this phase
E. Rhand - townread, won't vote this phase
E. Vaimes - Need to ISO immediately.
* "Prison Mike" protection parameters in place. (Though out of everyone in my cell, he's the one I'd probably lynch if pushed, solely due to quantity.)
There you have it. Given that there's likely 3 (certainly no more than 4) scum in this game, and that there is the possibility that there is more than one per cell, there's also every chance that there's 1 or more cells that's just Town too.
So, Zi, Grapefruit, need to look at Tom and Vaimes, and off in the bleachers, Dork and Tubba.
I already answered this in 438 that I wanted to know what took them out of the lynch pool for some people, if we don't pressure them they never do anything. At no point did I say to lynch them, I just don't enjoy people getting free passes. How long do you give them. I have had far too many games where low posting scum win because left alone for reasons like this. You cant get info from silence, and people who defend them sometimes are scum teammates. This is perhaps a site culture issue as well. In my view day ones which are a lot shorter on my site you either take a chance on a inactive or lynch for info if no one has become obv. Here we have a lot more time so both clearly don't work, since you can work people out more and take less blind shots. Its not a disconnect its just having two different views at the same time either though both are vastly different but can work in own way. It all depends on the situation
And I keep laying out why this doesn't make sense. I did not say you want them lynched. I did not say don't pressure them. I'm saying that it's obvious that in POE pool you're not going to include people who's lynches actively wont help town at this point in time. If you grasp lynching someone for info based on their activity it doesn't make sense to me that you don't grasp that lynching a blank slate currently gets us nothing.
I don't think it is obvious that you don't include inactives. If they're posting enough to not get replaced, but you'll need to cull them eventually, D1 is the optimal time to do so. I'm certainly pro-inactive lynch in games where I don't have strong scumleads.
Furthermore it makes total sense to me why eyebrows would get raised at nobody expressing pro-inactive lynch views and a lack of pressure votes on them early. Even if one is pro-information, it's weird if nobody is on the other side.
I'd argue that the lack of pressure towards inactives is actually indicative of one having rolled Scum here and a good reason to
Jack isn’t a lock. I think his posting is pure-ish. I liked how up front he was about liking playing scum, and the play here doesn’t reeeally support that meta (which I’m gonna take at face-value unless Last contradicts it).
Pure in what sense? I don't see someone being a pure, but I do see someone trying to understand players' mindsets
if you tell Jack someone is a wolf, what he will do, is go back, and find reason to agree with it, that you are wrong, or say the evidence is still inconclusive
this post isolated from the rest doesnt really show me why you should like him
I don’t at all get the impression that he’s in an assertive position in this game. Personally, he doesn’t seem the type to like being scum, because he seems like the ramble-y, nervous type.
Actually though, is there something specific bothering you? I don’t accept you hand waving all of my posts as nothing, or how it’s even relevant.
I said what was bothering me. I am not hand waving your posts away, I just see them as fluff posting without actually attempting to game solve. If the day were to end in 5 minutes, I am voting who I want gone right now.
As far as how its relevant. The entire point of this game is to solve or try to look like your solving. I don't feel like you are solving. You received my vote. I haven't played in a while, but I think that's what you are supposed to do?
Days since I’ve been told I’m both fluffing too much and not enough: 0
You are applying irrelevant meta to me, and I will ignore it accordingly.
Would you like to do something productive with me? Make something beautiful together? I’m open to suggestions.
How is this "irrelevant meta"? Not saying I agree or disagree with the assertion that you're posting and not being solve-y, but that's a pretty good indicator of Scum in general. That's not meta against you, that's just what Scum often do because they have TMI to solve.
It’s something I’m attacked for all the time, town or scum. How I solve apparently doesn’t look traditionally solvey enough, and the argument pops up every time I play with someone unfamiliar. Or an oldie with a bad memory.
If he hasn't been pushed on? As in, if no one outside in 16 players presses him?
Explain how that makes him scum?
That post is mostly tongue-in-cheek. Rhand usually gets pushed on a lot early when he’s town, because scum are trying to mislunch him. Ergo, if he doesn’t get pushed on, he’s probably scum.
This isn’t a totally reliable read.
Another one is if he makes weak pushes on me. So far that read is 2/2, maybe 3/3.
Ok, how about the not tongue-in-check response to my question?
Also, what's the 3 out of 3? What's the third?
Lol I like #501 a lot.
It's a little alarming that it's almost a carbon copy of my #491 said in different words.
Fingers crossed for a mind-meld, not a pocket.
Tom is usually like the driving force on me lynching or not lynching Vaimes day 1
but like I don't have even the slightest town read on him, which is a problem
so IDK right now
I've talked at length about #480 - what is your stance on it, John?
(lovely name, btw. Name of a handsome man. A god, even.)
Annoying I am sure, but I am kind of mixed. I overall like it as long as he is planning to continue to post more analysis, since he himself said he was waiting for the thread to get juicy and now it is. I understand your critisism of the post, so I wanted to go into why I wasn't swayed:
So on this post, you establish:
Even though she was your townread at the time, you didn't read KCC's post close enough to see that it was an RVS; despite it being her literal first post so impossible to miss.
Hedging/Lack of commitment not being an indicator. I agree with this but that is seriously not what you were saying earlier. This feels like trying to backtrack.
Further changes unexplained changes on Grape.
What Last and Ter have done to make you feel better? I'm assuming it's more than walls.
1). I don't think wolfZionite is that lazy and your point against him for KCC especially being the first post is definitely lazy indicative, but not really seeing it as wolfy.
2). I'd have to reread Zionite (and will) to see if this is as big of a backtrack as you make it sound.
3). I thought his Grape explaination was fine here. He is saying Grape was hard on Jack, and feels like he backed off too soon. Jack hasn't really gained traction, and a townie progression from Grape wouldn't have given up so easy (at least that's how I interpreted Zion's post.
Your question to him is fine.
I guess what I am saying is that if he slinks back to being lazyish, I can get behind him because then I feel like he is being coasty. But if we start seeing thoughtful hunting posts from Zionite, I think he is more likely to be town.
We will see what ends up happening, but not for Zio right now.
1). I don't think wolfZionite is that lazy and your point against him for KCC especially being the first post is definitely lazy indicative, but not really seeing it as wolfy.
Again, ancient meta, grain of salt,but my experience with scumZion was decidedly sloppy play on the details
Tom is usually like the driving force on me lynching or not lynching Vaimes day 1
but like I don't have even the slightest town read on him, which is a problem
so IDK right now
i mean you see him trying to discredit me earlier for being "wrong" on him recently, though ftr that was me strongly scumreading the person he replaced and him failing to convince me to change my mind in the one day before i got NKed...
But when my read of vaimes is squishy its squishy. For every "caught scumvaimes on page 1" theres a shruggy mislynch and scumvaimes NKing me before i can figure him out.
The current state of my vaimes read should not be sheeped in any way.
I should absolutely be sheeped when i have a strong townread of him though. Yet to be wrong on that.
Zion (4): Sloth, Flarg, last, jack
Grape (2): kcc, rhand
Vaimes (2): Tom, GJ
Kj (1): Tubba
Tom (1): Vaimes
Not Voting (5): YWFMLF, ZDS, Kj, grape, Zion
Hmm...Tubba, did you ever explain this vote?
KJ seemed decidedly... “different”. The kJ I’m used to seeing is more deliberate, more solvey and has far less superfluous post. He didn’t seem to be his usual serious self. I believe I referred to him in another game as “being his buzzkilly self”.
Jack isn’t a lock. I think his posting is pure-ish. I liked how up front he was about liking playing scum, and the play here doesn’t reeeally support that meta (which I’m gonna take at face-value unless Last contradicts it).
Here, the hedginess is expositional only- "jack isnt a lock"
But everything he has to say is highly positive.
This could mean a few things.
If vaimes is town, its likely floating/unexplained background thinking about how jack seems like someone that would post similar to this regardless of alignment, so hes taking all his positives with a grain of salt. This is totally viable.
But its not the first thing i thought. Because as scum theres possible agenda (leaving outs in the read for whatever reason) or a possible sign of TMI (basically he adds in that hedge because hes not starting from <doesnt know jacks alignment but is gaining positive opinions> but rather <knows jacks town but doesnt want to say it outrights>)
Ok, if the first thing you thought was the scum alternative, I'm assuming that's because you were already seeing Vaimes under a scum light prior to this post. Walk me through that.
Here's the thing: Both of these are viable, as you said, but I'm not seeing what makes one more viable than the other. Your vote's on him, so clearly you did, or at least saw other damning things. I'm listenin'.
(P.S. that's definitely not what hedging means in my experience.)
I think all three options i presented are viable, and all less likely than his explanation, and at no point did any of this effect my read on vaimes to a notable degree
Last few posts, every time I saw a vaimes post, it just felt like he was talking but nothing relevent was being said. I don't remember being super impressed with him either on my last few skims either.
Days since I’ve been told I’m both fluffing too much and not enough: 0
You are applying irrelevant meta to me, and I will ignore it accordingly.
He's not saying "this is how Vaimes plays in other games," he's saying "this is how Vaimes is currently playing in this game."
The only way this would be irrelevant is if he's wrong - so, is he?
I think all three options i presented are viable, and all less likely than his explanation, and at no point did any of this effect my read on vaimes to a notable degree
And therefore, your read on Vaimes is actually based on.....................................
So, with specific regards to tom's "excitedly premature" comment... I felt it jumped past the most obvious motives for Zionite's early posts without fully eliminating them. It felt... also premature. I'll let you know if this changes as I'm still on page 4 rn.
I looked over Zionite's games and he's correct, that behavior isn't typical. Which makes his initial bloodthirst potentially a thing (on page 4).
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Actually though, is there something specific bothering you? I don’t accept you hand waving all of my posts as nothing, or how it’s even relevant.
I said what was bothering me. I am not hand waving your posts away, I just see them as fluff posting without actually attempting to game solve. If the day were to end in 5 minutes, I am voting who I want gone right now.
As far as how its relevant. The entire point of this game is to solve or try to look like your solving. I don't feel like you are solving. You received my vote. I haven't played in a while, but I think that's what you are supposed to do?
Days since I’ve been told I’m both fluffing too much and not enough: 0
You are applying irrelevant meta to me, and I will ignore it accordingly.
Would you like to do something productive with me? Make something beautiful together? I’m open to suggestions.
How is this "irrelevant meta"? Not saying I agree or disagree with the assertion that you're posting and not being solve-y, but that's a pretty good indicator of Scum in general. That's not meta against you, that's just what Scum often do because they have TMI to solve.
It’s something I’m attacked for all the time, town or scum. How I solve apparently doesn’t look traditionally solvey enough, and the argument pops up every time I play with someone unfamiliar. Or an oldie with a bad memory.
So... GJ's made a legitimate point that this is how Scum looks, and you're using meta as a defense, then? That's what I gather from this. It's pretty much entirely backwards from what you made it sound like originally.
If this is apparently something that always happens and other players can verify it I'm ok with the meta defense, just don't think it's fair you dismissed it the way you did.
Generally, but this game DID have a pre-game phase before game start proper.
It's still probably fake. This game is unlikely to have a straight alignment check, especially a N0, especially especially one that just happened to land on Last
I don't think last is scum. He's poking at me to get me involved, and not doing any shading in the process. I don't see a scum motive for that, it feels more like the opposite of how he'd want to approach me
Site meta. Pure alignment checks are pretty frowned upon here
These posts happened within the same 24-hour period, in the order displayed. If you don't think Last is scum, and don't believe his claim, then what do you think is happening here?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I actually can't believe how much you have backtracked on this and it bothers me. This looks like you just gave into peer pressure then actual belief, which is not normal for town to do.
Also stop flipping on reads for no reason explain to me how you did not know KCC was a RVS vote when it was their first post, also what about them was town, and what changed. I need to understand the logic here. Since the same flip happened with Grape.
Post about Tom knowing you are town bothers me because it just comes across as a way to try and tell people you are town indirectly rather then add anything. I know I also did this in regards to KCC but I'a hypocrite like I said.
I'm started to get annoyed with this Flarge info thing as well, since it lasted a total of 20 mins and I never even went anywhere with it, how much people bring it up makes it seem like I voted him and still want him dead. I explained why I said what I did and stand by it even if wrong.
Also what makes me less scum and why did Wisp and lazer go up as well don't throw at blank statements with no reasons. Also you are doing same thing you want to scumread grape on.
Finally surely you should have own reasons to vote Vaimes instead of following Tom and what posts did you like by Tom in the first place, I'm also not letting last part which is a slight ATE pass about being run up by sloth so.
Vote : Zionite
You are being even more hedgey then me in this post, and backtracking far too much.
I said what was bothering me. I am not hand waving your posts away, I just see them as fluff posting without actually attempting to game solve. If the day were to end in 5 minutes, I am voting who I want gone right now.
As far as how its relevant. The entire point of this game is to solve or try to look like your solving. I don't feel like you are solving. You received my vote. I haven't played in a while, but I think that's what you are supposed to do?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I already answered this in 438 that I wanted to know what took them out of the lynch pool for some people, if we don't pressure them they never do anything. At no point did I say to lynch them, I just don't enjoy people getting free passes. How long do you give them. I have had far too many games where low posting scum win because left alone for reasons like this. You cant get info from silence, and people who defend them sometimes are scum teammates. This is perhaps a site culture issue as well. In my view day ones which are a lot shorter on my site you either take a chance on a inactive or lynch for info if no one has become obv. Here we have a lot more time so both clearly don't work, since you can work people out more and take less blind shots. Its not a disconnect its just having two different views at the same time either though both are vastly different but can work in own way. It all depends on the situation
And I keep laying out why this doesn't make sense. I did not say you want them lynched. I did not say don't pressure them. I'm saying that it's obvious that in POE pool you're not going to include people who's lynches actively wont help town at this point in time. If you grasp lynching someone for info based on their activity it doesn't make sense to me that you don't grasp that lynching a blank slate currently gets us nothing.
You are applying irrelevant meta to me, and I will ignore it accordingly.
Would you like to do something productive with me? Make something beautiful together? I’m open to suggestions.
How often do I actually use meta and how vocal am I about being antimeta when I played....months ago, a year? I can't even tell you the last time I played a game. I remember bits and pieces.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I do know you can be fluffy. Since I take your comment to be an implication that what I am picking on you for is pretty null as far as your alignment goes, how do I look at you and seperate town vaimes from wolf vaimes?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Think you’re better off asking other people how to read me. Maybe someone you townread who also has experience with me, if you can find someone.
Except tom, he’s fired from reading me after that awful multiball game.
I can self-meta only if you think it’ll be useful, otherwise what’s the point.
I remember that. I mostly did that as a meme to the habbit mtgs would get into about someone always asking for a massclaim day 1. I saw no lynch as the opposite of that for information.
I think it would help to self meta. Obvious grain of salt is obvious, but what should I look for? I think it can be useful for a different reason.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
But with the extreme ends mentioned above its gonna be more playstyle than alignment. So if you want to get reliable reads off of relative hedginess, you want to start in the middle.
Take this:
Here, the hedginess is expositional only- "jack isnt a lock"
But everything he has to say is highly positive.
This could mean a few things.
If vaimes is town, its likely floating/unexplained background thinking about how jack seems like someone that would post similar to this regardless of alignment, so hes taking all his positives with a grain of salt. This is totally viable.
But its not the first thing i thought. Because as scum theres possible agenda (leaving outs in the read for whatever reason) or a possible sign of TMI (basically he adds in that hedge because hes not starting from <doesnt know jacks alignment but is gaining positive opinions> but rather <knows jacks town but doesnt want to say it outright>)
--
I'm caught up speedreading-wise but if I don't read slowly the posts all blend together. Slowreadingandtakingnotes-wise I have reached page 5. I'm seeing interesting things. I hope I don't go mad before I can share them with the town.
The main takeaway from that post should be "reading people for hedging is meaningless go deeper"
Pure in what sense? I don't see someone being a pure, but I do see someone trying to understand players' mindsets
if you tell Jack someone is a wolf, what he will do, is go back, and find reason to agree with it, that you are wrong, or say the evidence is still inconclusive
this post isolated from the rest doesnt really show me why you should like him
How is this "irrelevant meta"? Not saying I agree or disagree with the assertion that you're posting and not being solve-y, but that's a pretty good indicator of Scum in general. That's not meta against you, that's just what Scum often do because they have TMI to solve.
Prefacing this by noting that I did no additional re-read before doing it.
I'm also working under the assumption that each cell could contain 1 scum, just for convenient PoE reasons.
Also, don't take town/scum reads as strong or light. Unless I'm voting for you.
So.
A. Grapefuit21 - eh, willing to vote.
A. Tomsloger - haven't ISO'd yet, but almost exactly as willing to vote as I am Grape, actually.
A. YWFMLF - townread, won't vote this phase.
B. Gentleman Johnny - townread, won't vote this phase.
B. Killjoy - eh. Won't vote this phase.
B. Zionite - currently AM voting and keep being given reasons to do so.
C. Lastwhisper - townread, won't vote this phase. (watch for pockets)
C. Slothful - This ****er's always up to something.
C. Tubba Fett - *
D. Jackrito - townread, won't vote this phase (also watch for pockets)
D. KittyCupCake - eh. Won't vote this phase, though I'm waiting on responses from her.
D. ZeDorkSlipeur - ??? Do something.
E. FlargBlarg - townread, won't vote this phase
E. Rhand - townread, won't vote this phase
E. Vaimes - Need to ISO immediately.
* "Prison Mike" protection parameters in place. (Though out of everyone in my cell, he's the one I'd probably lynch if pushed, solely due to quantity.)
There you have it. Given that there's likely 3 (certainly no more than 4) scum in this game, and that there is the possibility that there is more than one per cell, there's also every chance that there's 1 or more cells that's just Town too.
So, Zi, Grapefruit, need to look at Tom and Vaimes, and off in the bleachers, Dork and Tubba.
I don't think it is obvious that you don't include inactives. If they're posting enough to not get replaced, but you'll need to cull them eventually, D1 is the optimal time to do so. I'm certainly pro-inactive lynch in games where I don't have strong scumleads.
Furthermore it makes total sense to me why eyebrows would get raised at nobody expressing pro-inactive lynch views and a lack of pressure votes on them early. Even if one is pro-information, it's weird if nobody is on the other side.
I'd argue that the lack of pressure towards inactives is actually indicative of one having rolled Scum here and a good reason to
A good reason to look at them as a group later on when we have more to go on.
Grape (2): kcc, rhand
Vaimes (2): Tom, GJ
Kj (1): Tubba
Tom (1): Vaimes
Not Voting (5): YWFMLF, ZDS, Kj, grape, Zion
Hmm...Tubba, did you ever explain this vote?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
(lovely name, btw. Name of a handsome man. A god, even.)
Also, what's the 3 out of 3? What's the third?
It's a little alarming that it's almost a carbon copy of my #491 said in different words.
Fingers crossed for a mind-meld, not a pocket.
Don’t have a strong read on him here, but he seems fine. I usually wait a while to read the space around him.
but like I don't have even the slightest town read on him, which is a problem
so IDK right now
Annoying I am sure, but I am kind of mixed. I overall like it as long as he is planning to continue to post more analysis, since he himself said he was waiting for the thread to get juicy and now it is. I understand your critisism of the post, so I wanted to go into why I wasn't swayed:
1). I don't think wolfZionite is that lazy and your point against him for KCC especially being the first post is definitely lazy indicative, but not really seeing it as wolfy.
2). I'd have to reread Zionite (and will) to see if this is as big of a backtrack as you make it sound.
3). I thought his Grape explaination was fine here. He is saying Grape was hard on Jack, and feels like he backed off too soon. Jack hasn't really gained traction, and a townie progression from Grape wouldn't have given up so easy (at least that's how I interpreted Zion's post.
Your question to him is fine.
I guess what I am saying is that if he slinks back to being lazyish, I can get behind him because then I feel like he is being coasty. But if we start seeing thoughtful hunting posts from Zionite, I think he is more likely to be town.
We will see what ends up happening, but not for Zio right now.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
unvote
One more question though, why did you want to believe jack was scum?
I think I got to know you pretty well last game
Maybe. I don't remember Zion being the type to overreact to pressure as town either, I don't think it's one of the stronger points on him
Can you tell me why you were townreading me? Or why you thought I was voting Jack?
Again, ancient meta, grain of salt,but my experience with scumZion was decidedly sloppy play on the details
Did I miss something? I'm not finding anything else from you
But when my read of vaimes is squishy its squishy. For every "caught scumvaimes on page 1" theres a shruggy mislynch and scumvaimes NKing me before i can figure him out.
The current state of my vaimes read should not be sheeped in any way.
I should absolutely be sheeped when i have a strong townread of him though. Yet to be wrong on that.
KJ seemed decidedly... “different”. The kJ I’m used to seeing is more deliberate, more solvey and has far less superfluous post. He didn’t seem to be his usual serious self. I believe I referred to him in another game as “being his buzzkilly self”.
I see. Tell me, what do you think the worst part of prison is?
(Never played KJ so neither agree nor disagree, but something to keep in mind I suppose.)
Here's the thing: Both of these are viable, as you said, but I'm not seeing what makes one more viable than the other. Your vote's on him, so clearly you did, or at least saw other damning things. I'm listenin'.
(P.S. that's definitely not what hedging means in my experience.)
The only way this would be irrelevant is if he's wrong - so, is he?
I looked over Zionite's games and he's correct, that behavior isn't typical. Which makes his initial bloodthirst potentially a thing (on page 4).
So... GJ's made a legitimate point that this is how Scum looks, and you're using meta as a defense, then? That's what I gather from this. It's pretty much entirely backwards from what you made it sound like originally.
If this is apparently something that always happens and other players can verify it I'm ok with the meta defense, just don't think it's fair you dismissed it the way you did.
Hm.
Animal.