@Grape: could you elaborate on this post specifically? It seems unrelated to what Gemma asked (this isn't one of the posts where I'm complaining about the game state) and you mention it feels like "wolfy bulling" and then say that it's building towards a wolf read then undercuts it... am I supposed to be tom's partner trying to deflect from him?
The intent was to connect my post about "what if tom is a wolf" to fulcrum's read on him and try to figure out how it relates to how he's reading fulcrum (and how fulcrum is reading him). What is anti-town about the thrust of it?
I'm not really sure what I meant by "wolf bulling" to be honest. The dangers of posting in bed are real...
But to your broader questions it's related to Gemma's questions about complaining about the gamestate because it's one where you're not doing that, but it's a build to nothing. If I don't assume pure intentions (chasing down a hypothetical) it reads like you're building a big case up and spilling a lot of ink on it, only to undercut it and say that you don't believe in it. And filling the thread with non opinions that look like attempts to move gamestate is anti-town.
@Tom I take it you think I'm buddies with Silver then?
But to your broader questions it's related to Gemma's questions about complaining about the gamestate because it's one where you're not doing that, but it's a build to nothing. If I don't assume pure intentions (chasing down a hypothetical) it reads like you're building a big case up and spilling a lot of ink on it, only to undercut it and say that you don't believe in it. And filling the thread with non opinions that look like attempts to move gamestate is anti-town.
I have a hard time believing you think it's wolfish of me to idly speculate, this isn't near our first game together.
And the thing is, Gemma basically asked me to make that post and it kind of hinges on tom's alignment, which... I don't know. I kind of think he's town but. Yeah. I guess my point is I'm having a hard time getting to where you say you are on me.
If I hadn't quoted the Gemma post where she asked me to do that I might believe that you just read the first page of my iso and thought I was just filling the thread with nonsense but like... idk.
Do you think that makes them not partners since they'd tend towards town reading each other from your point of view?
Nah, not at all. Am not so sure about your point re: fulcrum nullreading him if they were partners - I think if she's mafia she made a big deal out of Vaimes not reading him, if she were to take a boring stance on him it would just look weak.
Do you think that makes them not partners since they'd tend towards town reading each other from your point of view?
Nah, not at all. Am not so sure about your point re: fulcrum nullreading him if they were partners - I think if she's mafia she made a big deal out of Vaimes not reading him, if she were to take a boring stance on him it would just look weak.
Also, her thing about Vaimes is kind of predicated on tom being town, so.
@Gemma: No no, I think tom would be null-or-lower reading her without actively pushing her, she'd be town reading him like you said.
re: Grape I ~kind of~ think he's town for reasons unrelated to his posts but at the same time it's uh. interesting that he voted tom for /barning DK's vezok case and then immediately said he thought wolves would have stayed off the wagon.
and by that I mean I think his posts contain a lot of mindset contradictions and I'm currently mulling over whether he's just being sloppy or if he's doing the wolf thing of, make reads you need to make to win game and say things you would say as town/that are "true" even if they contradict the reads you're claiming.
I have a hard time believing you think it's wolfish of me to idly speculate, this isn't near our first game together.
And the thing is, Gemma basically asked me to make that post and it kind of hinges on tom's alignment, which... I don't know. I kind of think he's town but. Yeah. I guess my point is I'm having a hard time getting to where you say you are on me.
If I hadn't quoted the Gemma post where she asked me to do that I might believe that you just read the first page of my iso and thought I was just filling the thread with nonsense but like... idk.
The first page of your ISO is as far as I looked because I was looking at/for a specific thing. How you handling a game state that you were explicitly frustrated by? Engaging in some discussion to try and generate traction makes sense, but I'd expect you to take some direction in improving the game state rather than building a hypothetical then saying you disagree with the underlying and letting it die. That frustration given the amount of MIA players is understandable and NAI but I think that particular post is noteworthy.
I'm not saying this is a strong thing but it's a thing. You took an opportunity to advance the game (engage in hypothetical then dispute it strongly and go somewhere with it, if I accept your stated view) and passed while having that post be surround by complaints about the game.
re: Grape I ~kind of~ think he's town for reasons unrelated to his posts but at the same time it's uh. interesting that he voted tom for /barning DK's vezok case and then immediately said he thought wolves would have stayed off the wagon.
and by that I mean I think his posts contain a lot of mindset contradictions and I'm currently mulling over whether he's just being sloppy or if he's doing the wolf thing of, make reads you need to make to win game and say things you would say as town/that are "true" even if they contradict the reads you're claiming.
Ohhhh ohhhhhh!
Ask me about this! Drive the game state! Don't be a passenger in your own life!
Up through 428 nothing has stuck out as being scummy and I've liked a few little things (the way he handled Asta's RVS newness, poking Rhand, and having the mindset flexibility to like Gemma and Vaimes but pushback on them scum reading Axel). I'm not endorsing all of those POV's they just give me town pings.
The way that post is phrased, I believe that you genuinely don't know that scum do have daychat
And you trust that?
I'm going to scrap my Silver suspicion for now. He's townish at least. Gemma drops a notch for sending me on that chase. Has a hint of pointing a pocketed friend at a target, but I'm still pocketed.
Grape
KJ
LW, Vez
Silver, Gemma, Vaimes, DK
Everyone else
Fulcrum, Axel
Tom
Grape, is Silver town genuinely feeling adrift in the gamestate or mafia using the gamestate as a way to complain and excuse himself for not doing anything? Or something else? Make a case for me.
Idk, opening this line of inquiry to the table if anyone wants to take it up.
Gemma I get that I didn't give you the answer you wanted (pushing Silver with you) and my snark came out a bit rude (I only slept 3 hours last night and I am tired) but I did follow your question, I just didn't make a case. That post caught my attention but the rest of his ISO gave me the opposite impression.
I'm trying not to fade into full lurker mode or anything, but wife is pregnant and MONDO nauseous, so that's been taking up a LOT of my attention and likely won't get any better anytime soon. I will get some time here and there to post, probably not a sizable dip compared to my previous level of activity tbh.
Anyways, I haven't seen much to completely push my vote or anything, but I'm not comfortable with it where it's at.
Gemma I get that I didn't give you the answer you wanted (pushing Silver with you) and my snark came out a bit rude (I only slept 3 hours last night and I am tired) but I did follow your question, I just didn't make a case. That post caught my attention but the rest of his ISO gave me the opposite impression.
Actually this is wrong again I think.
It was that you wanted me to push Silver it was that you wanted me to publicly make the case and I didn't. I didn't bother because scanning his ISO made me feel that there was obviously nothing there worth pursuing. But I owe you more than that so I'll do a mini town case beyond my notes previously.
Got into the mid-300s and I have a headache, so gonna step away.
My strongest read so far is that Silver's town. Not really sure how to articulate why - I liked their response to Nacho's read early, #165 positions KJ's read as somewhat unfounded but doesn't actually shade KJ so it feels like they were actually trying to get into KJ's head and solve Gemma (I also found Killjoy's continued pressing into Gemma there towny though I think I disagree with KJ's read), the first part of #351 seems attempting to sort out a genuine point of confusion with my slot, which they were scumreading, without really the extra heat they could have pushed into it. I also have this instinctive "I really like this" reaction to their cadence, which might be the source of the early lean, but I still like the read.
I haven't processed Rhand's wall in #300 fully but I liked the fact that Rhand seemed to be actually trying to interpret what tom meant and making a read on him based on that. I found myself glossing over a lot of tom's posts because I find it hard to parse, so I feel like mafia Rhand could easily have just elected to not give a read on partner tom for similar reasons, or pressured town tom on the ~anti-townness~ of the gimmick. Also in #300, Rhand clearing my slot over the self-meta stuff is a bit unconsidered but also kinda speaks to constricting options/agendalessness since my slot had been picking up steam at least in general thread sentiment there, iirc.
Vaimes' surety on Nacho notably confuses me because I don't really have a read on Nacho. I liked his somewhat bold tone and how he responded to Nacho early on. I mildly liked Wisp (LW)'s tone/approach toward vezok too for similar reasons. (Hi Wisp! )
It was that you wanted me to push Silver it was that you wanted me to publicly make the case and I didn't. I didn't bother because scanning his ISO made me feel that there was obviously nothing there worth pursuing. But I owe you more than that so I'll do a mini town case beyond my notes previously.
Bruh. If I wanted you to put Silver I would have wrote about him being mafia. I wanted exactly what I asked - someone to talk about Silver with me. It's a way to get an alignment read on you based on how you approach it and to hopefully get a better read on Silver from what you end up giving me. You're way too paranoid for your own good.
It was that you wanted me to push Silver it was that you wanted me to publicly make the case and I didn't. I didn't bother because scanning his ISO made me feel that there was obviously nothing there worth pursuing. But I owe you more than that so I'll do a mini town case beyond my notes previously.
Bruh. If I wanted you to put Silver I would have wrote about him being mafia. I wanted exactly what I asked - someone to talk about Silver with me. It's a way to get an alignment read on you based on how you approach it and to hopefully get a better read on Silver from what you end up giving me. You're way too paranoid for your own good.
Scum can try to fake that ignorance, but yes, I trust that I can tell the difference
I used to think I could too. I was very, very wrong.
@Gemma I don't owe it to you. That's correct. But I want to be someone you'd work with and as a result I felt bad about brushing you off.
Anyway as for Silver: 207 struck me as a town post. The wanting to commit to scum reading Asta but holding himself back (and in doing so publicly signalling it anyway) is very townie. It's the sort of over-eagerness I used too attempt to read tom through and tends to be a town tell. The varied attention is also a good look. Silver at his best has always cast a wide net poking at whatever he found interesting (thinking of another DV game in Arkham as a prime example). Throughout the game but noticeably here he's showing that.
351's read wall combined with 383 helped move the needle for me. I really like his attempts to sort between people he's town reading. He doesn't drop Gemma or Vaimes over the Axel push, he just tries to get a dialogue going between his town reads. That sort of action just tends to be so town indicative.
Anyway as for Silver: 207 struck me as a town post. The wanting to commit to scum reading Asta but holding himself back (and in doing so publicly signalling it anyway) is very townie. It's the sort of over-eagerness I used too attempt to read tom through and tends to be a town tell. The varied attention is also a good look. Silver at his best has always cast a wide net poking at whatever he found interesting (thinking of another DV game in Arkham as a prime example). Throughout the game but noticeably here he's showing that.
351's read wall combined with 383 helped move the needle for me. I really like his attempts to sort between people he's town reading. He doesn't drop Gemma or Vaimes over the Axel push, he just tries to get a dialogue going between his town reads. That sort of action just tends to be so town indicative.
Where are you on Silver? I get it if you're torn the most recent posts (as of our convo yesterday) aren't great but I think the early stuff is pretty, pretty, pretty townie (okay not actually that strong but references).
I don't like the exchange with grape. Looks way too much like pocketing. Grape even notes that no daychat is extremely unlikely, but still makes a point related to that. KCC somehow interprets this as grape thinking there is no daychat.
It's not a noob slip, like implying that scum don't have day chat. It's saying that in the extremely unlikely situation that scum don't have day chat, those two could have been scum making funny posts at each other.
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Where are you on Silver? I get it if you're torn the most recent posts (as of our convo yesterday) aren't great but I think the early stuff is pretty, pretty, pretty townie (okay not actually that strong but references).
Well, he feels very middle of the road and am having a hard time distinguishing him from a wolf emulating a more or less immaculate but vanilla towngame, doing nothing wrong but not really getting anything done either. Not really sure what to make of the way that he locked on the mindreaver lynch and stalled out. Think it makes more sense from him as mafia to just make a home in the quagmire the way he did. Feel like he's been super tame, idk if that's just his meta but I wish he would do something that would jump out at me instead of all this bland but reasonable wandering.
I don't like the exchange with grape. Looks way too much like pocketing. Grape even notes that no daychat is extremely unlikely, but still makes a point related to that. KCC somehow interprets this as grape thinking there is no daychat.
It's not a noob slip, like implying that scum don't have day chat. It's saying that in the extremely unlikely situation that scum don't have day chat, those two could have been scum making funny posts at each other.
Tom and Axel would be fun especially if there is no day chat (seems unlikely given the presence of a Mason and DV's opinions on Day Chat) but probably a point towards those two being unaligned.
Present tense "if there is" suggests that Grape is representing a lack of knowledge about whether or not there is daychat. If he was representing knowledge of daychat as a thing, he would have used past tense "if there was" to indicate he was speaking hypothetically. He also talked about the likelihood of there being scumchat ("seems unlikely given ..."), which also represents a lack of knowledge about it.
Gemma drops a notch for sending me on that chase. Has a hint of pointing a pocketed friend at a target, but I'm still pocketed.
Sometimes I take all the shine, talk like I drank all the wine
Years ahead but way behind, I'm on one, two, three, four, five
No half-truths, just naked minds, caught between space and time
This now, with the world in mind, but maybe some day vote grape
I will say it's funny Axel is saying he doesn't want to reread without flips but is also suspicious of me for... pushing for a flip
Like if you aren't going to reread why do you need another week to shrug and lunch a lurker? We can do that right now if that's what we're doing
Not what that was. I didn't like the way you phrased it. You weren't actually pushing for Mindreaver yourself, so much as going "well, if we're going to do it, might as well do it" using that royal "We". It sounded wrong.
My biggest problem with Axel right now is his hardcore stance on Mind/lurkers (which might well be just a difference of mafia theory opinion? so, Axel: After my list I made a point where I gave a reason I thought Mind might be town. Does the theory make sense? Do you agree/disagree?
I do not remember what your theory was and I am not looking it up right now, so, I apologize for that.
Tom and Axel would be fun especially if there is no day chat (seems unlikely given the presence of a Mason and DV's opinions on Day Chat) but probably a point towards those two being unaligned. Fulcrum is terrifying and I'm never going to town clear them but nowhere near enough to vote them yet. Need to reread a few of KJ's posts. I didn't take much away from them.
I'm not sure I believe that GF just missed that it was clearly stated there was Daychat in this game.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I will say that Mind just completely disappearing is different from him popping in and out promising big things and then never delivering. Still could be scum who was just so de-motivated he quit even trying, but it is at least a little less likely.
It's one of those out-of-game issues though, where if he really quit because he just didn't want to be scum, that would be a problem. Otherwise, his lurking falls back into the "Null" category.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I will say that Mind just completely disappearing is different from him popping in and out promising big things and then never delivering. Still could be scum who was just so de-motivated he quit even trying, but it is at least a little less likely.
It's one of those out-of-game issues though, where if he really quit because he just didn't want to be scum, that would be a problem. Otherwise, his lurking falls back into the "Null" category.
Activity aside, I still think the posts he actually made we're scummy. Though, I'm liking his replacement so far.
Why?
I'm not really sure what I meant by "wolf bulling" to be honest. The dangers of posting in bed are real...
But to your broader questions it's related to Gemma's questions about complaining about the gamestate because it's one where you're not doing that, but it's a build to nothing. If I don't assume pure intentions (chasing down a hypothetical) it reads like you're building a big case up and spilling a lot of ink on it, only to undercut it and say that you don't believe in it. And filling the thread with non opinions that look like attempts to move gamestate is anti-town.
@Tom I take it you think I'm buddies with Silver then?
Based on the way that Rhand handled you I think buddies is unlikely.
Based on your reaction I don't think Rhand is correctly pushing you.
That leaves the other two as options. I could see Rhand trying to bury you as scum or I could see him incorrectly pushing town you.
Also I guess that means you're my top town read so congrats?
I have a hard time believing you think it's wolfish of me to idly speculate, this isn't near our first game together.
And the thing is, Gemma basically asked me to make that post and it kind of hinges on tom's alignment, which... I don't know. I kind of think he's town but. Yeah. I guess my point is I'm having a hard time getting to where you say you are on me.
If I hadn't quoted the Gemma post where she asked me to do that I might believe that you just read the first page of my iso and thought I was just filling the thread with nonsense but like... idk.
I haven't read anything except the latest votecount, I'll try and get through the entire thread before Tuesday night.
Is there a way to ISO someone's posts in order or can you only ISO from the forum page?
Unvote
How do you read into Grape's tom vote?
@Gemma: No no, I think tom would be null-or-lower reading her without actively pushing her, she'd be town reading him like you said.
re: Grape I ~kind of~ think he's town for reasons unrelated to his posts but at the same time it's uh. interesting that he voted tom for /barning DK's vezok case and then immediately said he thought wolves would have stayed off the wagon.
and by that I mean I think his posts contain a lot of mindset contradictions and I'm currently mulling over whether he's just being sloppy or if he's doing the wolf thing of, make reads you need to make to win game and say things you would say as town/that are "true" even if they contradict the reads you're claiming.
The first page of your ISO is as far as I looked because I was looking at/for a specific thing. How you handling a game state that you were explicitly frustrated by? Engaging in some discussion to try and generate traction makes sense, but I'd expect you to take some direction in improving the game state rather than building a hypothetical then saying you disagree with the underlying and letting it die. That frustration given the amount of MIA players is understandable and NAI but I think that particular post is noteworthy.
I'm not saying this is a strong thing but it's a thing. You took an opportunity to advance the game (engage in hypothetical then dispute it strongly and go somewhere with it, if I accept your stated view) and passed while having that post be surround by complaints about the game.
Ohhhh ohhhhhh!
Ask me about this! Drive the game state! Don't be a passenger in your own life!
Up through 428 nothing has stuck out as being scummy and I've liked a few little things (the way he handled Asta's RVS newness, poking Rhand, and having the mindset flexibility to like Gemma and Vaimes but pushback on them scum reading Axel). I'm not endorsing all of those POV's they just give me town pings.
And you trust that?
I'm going to scrap my Silver suspicion for now. He's townish at least. Gemma drops a notch for sending me on that chase. Has a hint of pointing a pocketed friend at a target, but I'm still pocketed.
Grape
KJ
LW, Vez
Silver, Gemma, Vaimes, DK
Everyone else
Fulcrum, Axel
Tom
And how unfair of me to drop you half a notch from one batch of squishy town reads to squishy town leans.
I'm trying not to fade into full lurker mode or anything, but wife is pregnant and MONDO nauseous, so that's been taking up a LOT of my attention and likely won't get any better anytime soon. I will get some time here and there to post, probably not a sizable dip compared to my previous level of activity tbh.
Anyways, I haven't seen much to completely push my vote or anything, but I'm not comfortable with it where it's at.
Actually this is wrong again I think.
It was that you wanted me to push Silver it was that you wanted me to publicly make the case and I didn't. I didn't bother because scanning his ISO made me feel that there was obviously nothing there worth pursuing. But I owe you more than that so I'll do a mini town case beyond my notes previously.
My strongest read so far is that Silver's town. Not really sure how to articulate why - I liked their response to Nacho's read early, #165 positions KJ's read as somewhat unfounded but doesn't actually shade KJ so it feels like they were actually trying to get into KJ's head and solve Gemma (I also found Killjoy's continued pressing into Gemma there towny though I think I disagree with KJ's read), the first part of #351 seems attempting to sort out a genuine point of confusion with my slot, which they were scumreading, without really the extra heat they could have pushed into it. I also have this instinctive "I really like this" reaction to their cadence, which might be the source of the early lean, but I still like the read.
I haven't processed Rhand's wall in #300 fully but I liked the fact that Rhand seemed to be actually trying to interpret what tom meant and making a read on him based on that. I found myself glossing over a lot of tom's posts because I find it hard to parse, so I feel like mafia Rhand could easily have just elected to not give a read on partner tom for similar reasons, or pressured town tom on the ~anti-townness~ of the gimmick. Also in #300, Rhand clearing my slot over the self-meta stuff is a bit unconsidered but also kinda speaks to constricting options/agendalessness since my slot had been picking up steam at least in general thread sentiment there, iirc.
Vaimes' surety on Nacho notably confuses me because I don't really have a read on Nacho. I liked his somewhat bold tone and how he responded to Nacho early on. I mildly liked Wisp (LW)'s tone/approach toward vezok too for similar reasons. (Hi Wisp! )
Don't really have solid thoughts on other people.
Scum can try to fake that ignorance, but yes, I trust that I can tell the difference
I used to think I could too. I was very, very wrong.
@Gemma I don't owe it to you. That's correct. But I want to be someone you'd work with and as a result I felt bad about brushing you off.
Anyway as for Silver:
207 struck me as a town post. The wanting to commit to scum reading Asta but holding himself back (and in doing so publicly signalling it anyway) is very townie. It's the sort of over-eagerness I used too attempt to read tom through and tends to be a town tell. The varied attention is also a good look. Silver at his best has always cast a wide net poking at whatever he found interesting (thinking of another DV game in Arkham as a prime example). Throughout the game but noticeably here he's showing that.
351's read wall combined with 383 helped move the needle for me. I really like his attempts to sort between people he's town reading. He doesn't drop Gemma or Vaimes over the Axel push, he just tries to get a dialogue going between his town reads. That sort of action just tends to be so town indicative.
With 17 Alive it takes 9 to Lynch
vote KCC
I don't like the exchange with grape. Looks way too much like pocketing. Grape even notes that no daychat is extremely unlikely, but still makes a point related to that. KCC somehow interprets this as grape thinking there is no daychat.
It's not a noob slip, like implying that scum don't have day chat. It's saying that in the extremely unlikely situation that scum don't have day chat, those two could have been scum making funny posts at each other.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Present tense "if there is" suggests that Grape is representing a lack of knowledge about whether or not there is daychat. If he was representing knowledge of daychat as a thing, he would have used past tense "if there was" to indicate he was speaking hypothetically. He also talked about the likelihood of there being scumchat ("seems unlikely given ..."), which also represents a lack of knowledge about it.
@Vezok
meh I am ok with the read, don't see why that is the reason why someone should vote KCC
But she not my real girlfriend
She got a key to my place but
She's not my real girlfriend
grape/silver w/v
Years ahead but way behind, I'm on one, two, three, four, five
No half-truths, just naked minds, caught between space and time
This now, with the world in mind, but maybe some day
vote grape
Am I wrong?
But if he's scum he knows they have daychat. And he knows we know they have daychat. It's a weird idea to fake if he's not town.
I mean, it's possible that as scum he would drop that in specifically to throw off people like me, but it doesn't feel fake
Not what that was. I didn't like the way you phrased it. You weren't actually pushing for Mindreaver yourself, so much as going "well, if we're going to do it, might as well do it" using that royal "We". It sounded wrong.
I do not remember what your theory was and I am not looking it up right now, so, I apologize for that.
I'm not sure I believe that GF just missed that it was clearly stated there was Daychat in this game.
It's one of those out-of-game issues though, where if he really quit because he just didn't want to be scum, that would be a problem. Otherwise, his lurking falls back into the "Null" category.
I know when I replace into a game, I'm significantly less likely to scour the opening post.
Activity aside, I still think the posts he actually made we're scummy. Though, I'm liking his replacement so far.
Hi Keldeo!