like vezok probably shouldnt have claimed
Once he did his "partner" probably shouldnt
You definitely shouldnt have
Vaimes if town shouldnt have
Nacho if town shouldnt have claimed or used
Fonti shouldnt have claimed regardless of alignment afaict
Sigh
probably but they did and Mason claims are two halves of s whole
Grape it's mechanically correct, and you are in the PoE
Vez has the ultimate decision today so there was no risk of me needing to claim toDay. If Vez got shot tonight and flips mason the worst case scenario is I get into a 1v1 with scum when I eventually claim. Holding the claim (and speculation) back causes more night action uncertainty and makes it harder for scum to ideally coordinate their actions.
There was zero upside to my claiming once Vez was elected and it was patently obvious that his mason buddy should not have claimed or been speculated about the second Vez was elected.
It was already speculated on. It was already hinted at. Assuming it's true, then the scum already knew it, Grape.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Im not saying you should think your flip is good info. But implying that its none is a pretty weak way to defend yourself, which was already on the scummy side from you imo. I feel like youve done a lot more defending than pushing alternatives basically
If people are going to try "I don't have a read on KCC, but let's flip for info!" Yeah, I'm absolutely going to make them justify what they are supposedly going to benefit from it.
Also, is this our first game together? I feel like I've seen you around before for some reason. Anyway, engaging people when they pressure me is one of my main hunting and sorting tools. It's not defense
The way she put out her scummy role in the beginning and the way she is approaching this day feel like town trying to play the game, not like cornered scum who is trying to survive. Even her reaction to the CC was great.
Why is almost nobody suspecting silver? He seems to fly under the radar too much and I can't say I vibed with his reads too much.
I’m reading, but just wanted to stop and say that I definitely
mentioned having Silver as a pet scumread.
You asked me something about Last, like if he’s scummy for pushing me?
It’s not that, hard to describe but more of a different flavor. Here is the worst he’s treated me in terms of just not liking me, which eh. He’s easily caught as scum imo, and his treatment would probably spew me town so I dunno why he’d bother, unless he’s just that incapable of not talking about me all the time.
I have to ask, are we just sitting here because we’re waiting for people who are too busy to post until much later? Is there a reason they need to say what they have to say now and not after a Night phase?
It seems to me like people are struggling to stay engaged, so how about vezok axes someone and we move on. I was kidding when I said this game should last six months.
It was already speculated on. It was already hinted at. Assuming it's true, then the scum already knew it, Grape.
This is basically where I was at. It was almost pointless not to claim, but there was very little reason to claim also. It had been so publicly guessed that there was no secrecy but there practically nothing to gain by claiming at this stage. Just a bad situation with very little game relevance but lot's of fiddly 1%s on what exactly is ideal.
probably but they did and Mason claims are two halves of s whole
The beauty of Masons is the fact that one can claim while the other stays secret. A huge part of the utility is that it provides two townfirms at the price of one claim. Like I don't understand your insistence that masons must claim as pairs at all. Short of the partner getting vigged there is zero downside to the second not claiming at the same time if the first claims under pressure and that dissipates the wagon. The beauty is that along as it comes before lylo the second claim is always at worst a 1 for 1 even if the first dies.
I have to ask, are we just sitting here because we’re waiting for people who are too busy to post until much later? Is there a reason they need to say what they have to say now and not after a Night phase?
It seems to me like people are struggling to stay engaged, so how about vezok axes someone and we move on. I was kidding when I said this game should last six months.
Our chat has been quiet because we're both busy and our times haven't lined up well but we've been in disagreement over who to target which I suspect has slowed down the decision making. There is also the issue of Proph being a top target for me if he doesn't provide content and waiting and seeing is very relevant for him in particular.
I think for me it's more of the whole, "I have some stuff to talk about and I'll finish rereading tomorrow" and that was a week ago and he hasn't even popped in with "PTAP" since then and...
Like, in sort of his defense I'm pretty sure college finals are this week but he hasn't even laid down more slank cover
Part of me thinks he thinks his slot is a lost cause and not worth trying to save and that feels more like wolf!Proph than town!Proph
But I expected some kind of "I know my slot looks bad but we're not lunching me because I'm town, here's some analysis" regardless of his alignment and it's been a week since his last post
As far as I can tell Vez is really tunnelled on Nacho and I get it. I haven't done the legwork to have a strong opinion one way or another on Nacho tbh.
I think for me it's more of the whole, "I have some stuff to talk about and I'll finish rereading tomorrow" and that was a week ago and he hasn't even popped in with "PTAP" since then and...
Like, in sort of his defense I'm pretty sure college finals are this week but he hasn't even laid down more slank cover
Part of me thinks he thinks his slot is a lost cause and not worth trying to save and that feels more like wolf!Proph than town!Proph
But I expected some kind of "I know my slot looks bad but we're not lunching me because I'm town, here's some analysis" regardless of his alignment and it's been a week since his last post
Alright, I've finally caught up (note to self: never catch up in a 2.8k game again), this is roughly where I am at the moment:
Gemma
Prophylaxis r. Jackrito r. shadowlancerx
vezokpiraka
Grapefruit r. Slothful
Killjoy
Silvercrys3467
Lastwhisper
Nachomamma8
KittyCupCake
Axelrod
Rhand
Keldeo r. Mindreaver
Asta
fulcrum
tomsloger
Vaimes
dkingsland967
vezok: Claimed mason etc.
Grape: He was initially in my null/scumreads but I see he's claimed to be the other mason, which is great. I enjoy playing with town Grape.
Killjoy: Probably my strongest behavioral townread at the moment, mainly due to his early and mid-game play. Basically, I think he's trying to apply lessons learned from previous games in this one and I think he's doing a fantastic job of it. He had some good questions in post 92 and I liked the discourse between him and Gemma early game and midgame:
Quote from Killjoy »
Gemma: TBH, all this push for readslists doesn't look specifically town to me. The townie version of this is you're trying to fill holes in peoples reads to gauge consistency/inconsistency but then you'd probably just be asking specific people specific questions instead of doing it this way. KCC mentioned that she, as scum, used people's reads to gauge who to mislynch. Or maybe you're doing the opposite, seeing where your buddies fall on them... but my point in general is you're doing what you're doing in the least town way possible.
This doesn't feel at all like how scum!KJ would treat a fairly competent and active town player here. Feels more likely that he would just shoo Gemma by the wayside and kind of let her do her thing if he was scum, rather than treat her awkwardly like this.
Liked his posts 788 and 954, these posts show a lot of transparency WRT thought process (specifically the part where he talks about Mindreaver's Hulk Hogan bravado and he compares Mind's behavior to himself).
Silvercrys: Haven't played with Silver in a while, so I am not sure what advancements he has made to his meta (Silver: Do you have a completed scum game thus far?). His 45 initially pinged me a little bit - the "Mrgle" felt a little fake and it felt like scum trying to push out of RVS awkwardly (Nacho's 62 explained why I didn't like Silver's post 45 far more intelligently than I can). This initially prickled me but I liked his engagement with Nacho coming out of RVS (Nacho/Silver also probably not aligned). I agreed with him on what he said about the Mindreaver posts and I liked his play in the middle of Day 1; he was kind of complaining about "THERE'S NOTHING TO DO!" but I appreciated the quote chain of replies and the Axel ISO. His Axel ISO feels like he doesn't know Axel's alignment; there's a type of nuance and wishy-washiness in that post that I think is quite difficult to fake if he's scum here.
Lastwhisper: He's definitely acting like his usual self, and it's a little different reading him on a site like this where he's not a big fish in a small pond like his home site and more of an average player. Would like to sync up with him at some point because that's how we won a game over the summer. I liked where he was at on page 5 because his reads largely tracked with me at the time. I think Last is town because I've played with him a couple of times as town and just modded a game where he played scum. In that game, I felt like Last was less interested in solving and more interested in using his posting style as a way to throw people off in that people would never really bother to reread his posts until endgame because his style is kind of unlike the usual MTGS fare. In this game he's a lot more focused on trying to get people to interact with him and I think he's also poking in a lot of places I wouldn't expect scum!Last to poke. Think that his beef with Vaimes is kind of NAI but my gut tells me that he wouldn't make a huge show of it if he was mafia. Kind of want to interact with him more (and I'm sure I'll get the chance to) to really iron out this read but I think he's a good guy here (and I want him to be town tbh).
Nachomamma8: Yet another player I haven't played with in quite a while (last time must have been Gemma's 2666 Mafia, right?) - First off, I liked his play on page 2. Stirring stuff up then evaluating reactions to it while being semi-transparent doing so gets the thumbs up from me. I might be a sucker for posts that very clearly explain the player's thought process and reasoning for what they do, but I really like Nacho's 240 and how he was playing in general? His play early game still makes a fair amount of sense to me and he's still trying to solve here. He then kind of disappears in the middle of Day 1 (I assume due to Black Friday shenanigans and working retail etc). Specifically what I liked in his catchup post is him making a good point about dk's sterilness. Liked Nacho's approach in 1400 with regards to KCC, specifically the "you need to give me something here" quote. His post 1404 is also good wrt dkings.
Then I got to the part where Nacho fake-CCs KCC. What is the mafia motivation for scum!Nacho to CC here? I could be not thinking through things deeply enough, but if Nacho is scum and KCC is town, my guess is that he would have probably continued to push KCC and not risk drawing attention to himself by CCing, knowing that if he keeps making solid posts he probably wouldn't be suspected or lynched for a couple more Days at least. Him CCing then retracting the CC.. makes more sense to me from town!Nacho, because (to be honest) KCC's posts were pretty lackluster up until she got run up, then she started to send more clear townie signals (like the reads list and how she claimed her role). I can.. sort of understand town Nacho being like "ok, I'm doubting my own read on KCC after those past few posts, let me retract this CC".
It's like a super ballsy play if he's scum here and I don't think that he would risk it in a playerbase like this, where generally being reasonable and active can get you to endgame. I don't know Nacho extremely well and it's possible he snows me like this but I don't thiiiiiink he's mafia?
KittyCupCake: My read on her is sort of related to my read on Nacho. The very first thing I noted when I began to read the thread was looking at her post 5. My read on that post is weak, but I doooon't think this is an angle she takes as scum?
Granted, I don't have a lot of experience with scum!KCC, but I recall most of her scum victories were games where she won in an overwhelming fashion, playing super clean and not being heavily suspected. (Thinking about The Wall Mafia where she avoided nearly all suspicion). Now, that game was four years ago, but I don't think scum!KCC says this and then makes the mess of a claim she made at late EoD1. I think scum!KCC is a lot more cunning and would just play.. differently than this if she was mafia. Also Rhand's 309 tracks with what i was saying about KCC's post 5, which is good for him.
Just been thinking about KCC's role and.. not super inclined to think it's a hit. Can see worlds where town KCC looks at her role and claims early "my role is super scummy" but the scum counterpart to that is like, she doesn't claim early, then she obscures parts of her claim and makes it /sound/ town-like? Just kind of lacking in self awareness here. KCC's more convoluted ability IMO has to be a true part of her claim since I doubt that she would ever make that up as mafia. Like KCC's reads list; feels like it's from a townie about to die rather than scum clamming up (esp the stuff she says to Gemma about retaining her snarkiness in the spec chat; that's kiind of the roundabout thing that is natural for townies to think about but scum struggle to emulate).
Also, kind of unrelated, but I gifted an orb to Axel last Night in order to confirm the busdrive and it swapped over to Nacho, so we know that KCC is telling the truth here about the busdrive. So yeah, probably town.
Axelrod: My read on Axelrod was kind of all over the place when I was reading. Originally I found his posts early game to be quite underwhelming, and I said that I wanted pressure on Slothful/Axel because they both weren't really Doing Anything. Axel early game was mostly nitpicking at his own various issues, which didn't really give me a great sense of his alignment. Also wasn't a fan of his case on Mindreaver because it felt like he was trying to pick on low hanging fruit. I recall both scumreading Axel and Vaimes at one point but then backing off on that because I don't think the both of them are aligned. Then I saw the watcher claim, which is fine in my books. I like his Day 2 play a lot more than his Day 1 play; his going over reasoning why people were voting him reads as solvey and not agenda-driven. Coupled with the Watcher claim I'm willing to reverse my stance on him early game and I like him as town. Do think that if there any deep scum then he is worth re-examining because watcher claim isn't end-all be-all and his early game stuff kind of tripped me up a bit, but I've appreciated his analysis of his wagonees Today.
Rhand: Yet another person that I keep going back and forth on. I wasn't the biggest fan of his early game because he wasn't doing a whole lot, but I liked his early reads list because he dived into his thought process quite a bit (and tbh, it was helpful to someone like me who was catching up). His 309 I liked quite a bit because he thought the same thing as me WRT KCC. Another post I liked from him was post 770 since it's a pretty candid look at his mindset and why he is playing the way he is playing. Then the thing that I'm still kind of struggling with is how he voted KJ and was convinced he was scum; I disagree with that heavily because KJ is literally my top behavioral town read right now, and that made me scumread him when I was reading the thread. However, now that I think about it more, I don't think scum!Rhand willingly impales himself on a spear to lynch town!KJ if he is indeed scum. I agree with him WRT Vaimes being scum. So yeah, there's a couple of stuff that makes me think that he's town, but I'd like to engage with him more and get a better feeling on where he's at.
Keldeo: Keldeo I want to more of a deep dive on, because I thought Mindreaver displayed some decent townie tonal tells. WRT the Mindreaver slot, I liked his 280 for a catchup post and I sort of liked his 297, in particular the "will anyone talk to me" jam? Seems natural for a townie to has just caught up, to have someone want to engage with them on their readwall. Here's the thing that I was basing most of my Mind townread on, and I'm aware it's pretty weak in isolation:
Quote from Mindreaver »
Here is what's up for all you people for whom my disconnected posts are some reason to think I'm an easy mislynch. I'm not. I'm coming for you. And it's the biggest mistake you've made this game. I'm channeling my inner Sir Chris a bit ( an undeserved omage, I'm not half the player he is) but come at me, you've had me at a disadvantage where I was catch up posting in places to try and participate quickly, and come tomorrow that ***** is over, no more jetlag, hotel beds, and time zone switches, no more 10 hour days and team building at night, so yeah I'll be reading all 15 pages you guys write overnight and then I'll be so legit, you'll wish you rolled town with me. But if you're gonna bring that weak ass ***** where I somehow put a gif in the middle of some other irrelevant bull***** on day 4 of a three week day, and that's the best you got... buckle up mofos.
This is something that I don't think scum!Mindreaver posts? It feels like over the top bravado but it's bravado in a way where I think that scum Mindreaver would think twice about posting it and then decide not to.
WRT Keldeo specifically, I'd like to do a full ISO of him soonish when finals are over. I recall liking his first post, reinforces my read on the Mind slot quite a bit. Think they're displaying a lot of nuance in their catchup which I am a fan of.
Asta: His posts kind of seem to be On the Face to be newb scum? I would expect newb scum generally to lurk and be somewhat disengaged with the thread, and Asta is kind of enthusiastic and people with more experience than him than me tell me that this is his town self, so I guess he's okay in my book? Asta seems to be lacking in self awareness to be noob scum, possibly? 935 is a pretty nice post that explains their thought process.
I'm not really convinced that his double vote is a reason to townread him because we have masons in the game, but he seems behaviorally fine for me.
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My reads thus far are more negative space reads where I have reasons for liking everyone else, so these people are kind of left by the wayside as my scumreads.
fulcrum: Simply put, I suck at reading her and I know her scum game is fairly solid, but she hasn't really done anything that is out of her range or screams villager to me. Think she's been playing very curt and somewhat guarded for most of the game which is naturally difficult to read. One of the posts I couldn't really understand even reading through it a bunch of times was her 337; I believe it was a decent look at her thought process but I was literally reading that entire paragraph like 2-3 times though and it made my eyes glaze over.
I'm not really sure what to make of her CC attempt other than the fact that I think what she claimed and Axel's role can coexist.
I dunno; I think I would like to do a full ISO of her at some point (and I'll probably get around to doing so) but I can just point to everyone else and tell you a reason why I think they're town. I see some like, minor town tells for fulcrum, but I can't build that towncase like I can for others. Maybe it's just because I've historically been Not Great at reading her, but that's where I'm at at this point.
tomsloger: To be frank I ignored most of his posts because I was catching up and don't have time to play interpreter to his gimmicks. I see that he's posted a LOT more and is no longer doing the song lyrics thing, so I will do my best to divine his alignment when I have some more free time. Other than that, negative space etc.
Now for the two people I am actually interested in seeing get the noose today: Vaimes and dkings..
Vaimes: Generally when Vaimes is town, he makes it pretty obvious, and I am not seeing the energy/tonal townie tells I am fairly used to seeing from him. When I was doing my read-through I thought that it was a lock that one of Axelrod or Vaimes was mafia and I now think that Axel is town, so yeah. Just wasn't a huge fan of his Nacho pressure in the early game when there was a fair amount else also going on and he just chose to latch onto Nacho. Then he hopped onto the Axel wagon and then hopped to the dk wagon for a little bit, then moved back onto Axelrod. The common trend with all of these votes is that he's mostly just following/bandwagoning other people rather than pursuing things really for himself, and also not the biggest fan of him voting Mindreaver when he was defending him. I understand his stated reasoning (929) but I feel like town Vaimes would dig in a little bit and avoid lynching people he's townreading as opposed to limp noodle voting him just because everyone else is and the game was stagnating around Mind. He was just latching onto Axel for most of Day 1 which makes me think he's a bad guy?
Not a whole lot to say about his claim - think he's probably trueclaiming as either alignment about being an inventor, and I think that worlds where he trades with vezok in order to get some town cred exist.
Vaimes, why do you think Nacho is mafia? Is it purely because of the chaos he started at EoD1? What do you think about the points I raise?
dkings: My issue with dkings is that he hasn't really done anything notable this game as opposed to Modern, where he was very quickly townread and got to be such a huge problem for the scum that scum!tom had to kill him in plain daylight. People have noted that his posts are sterile, and I agree with them. In this game, he started the wagon on vezok, After vezok claimed mason, he kind of floundered for most of Day 1. My issue with him is that, even though he states that he's having trouble engaging with the game, he's not really going through the effort of talking with his scumreads in order to get better reads on them. He's mostly playing passively with regards to them, stating they are mafia without directly questioning them or interrogating them. He hasn't really directly questioned KCC (his main scum read Yesterday) and he seems more content to quiz Vaimes on how his role works, and he hasn't really pressured fulcrum at all despite having her as someone he "wouldn't mind to see die Today".
dkings, why are you not directly questioning/grilling your scum suspects? Why are you content to treat them at arm's length rather than showing everyone why you think X or Y is mafia?
Sorry to add to the total wall and word count to the thread, but I thought that was needed given that you all haven't seen any content from this slot for literally an entire month.
Still in the middle of finals week, which is why I've largely been inactive, but I should be all ready to go after Christmas/holidays.
Would prefer not to die since there are a lot of people here I'd like to play with, but I understand given that this slot virtually did not participate at all Day 1.
Don't think I have a very accurate view of the gamestate compared to people who have been playing this game since the beginning, but hopefully I gave some of you a perspective change since reading this thread is a S L O G.
If anyone wants to ask me questions about my wall hit me up, I'll try to explain the best I can.
Top shot choices for tom would be dkings/Vaimes/X. Kind of want a flip either way; operating on the single Gemma flip was quite tough and I need more flips to confirm my worldview or not.
Will be back tomorrow hopefully catching up on the most recent ~200/300 posts, I've skimmed but haven't gotten a chance to digest things deeply.
Want to actually ISO tomsloger and Keldeo eventually and form more tangible opinions on those slots.
Hey Killjoy, tell me about what you got out of people telling you who they’d have elected King?
Asta actually feels like he’s projecting / reading what he wants to read into my posts, like the whole hedging because not enough info when that was never a reason I gave. iirc he did this in Wonka but I haven’t actually gone back and checked yet.
I skimmed the linked town game a bit, he does seem pretty not-paranoid I guess
But, okay, if Keldeo is a villager who are the wolves? Even if Nacho is (and I'm far from convinced of that) there's definitely 2 more and almost certainly 3?
Like, look at this vote count (right after Nacho retracted his counterclaim)
I'm town, Gemma is dead town, Vezok is a mason, Keldeo is town (given), Killjoy is spewed town, Grape is a hard town read, dkings is town (bodyguard)
Has to be like, [Proph] + 1 in [Asta, KCC, Nacho] + 0-1 in [tom, Axel] + 1-2 in [Rhand, fulcrum, Vaimes, Last] right?
If I color in my other reads here I get something like, exactly [Proph, Rhand, Lastwhisper, Axelrod] I think? And those aren't even wolf reads just people who are ~less town~ than everyone else. Like... it's a world, don't think it's impossible from interactions and stuff. I probably need to reread the whole game, just don't really have time right now.
I guess, someone talk me to me about this lol.
Silver, could you walk me through this “have to be” world? Like, through what wagon-derived thought process did you arrive at that particular set of people, why the wagon formation at this moment in time. Is it just “1 wolf on a 5 person wagon on a villager”, because there’s also that KCC could be one of the wolves in such a world but then her wagon isn’t treated differently? Also, why’s KJ spewed town in a world where I’m town/spewed by who or in what sense?
Also also, I feel like you should like, talk to KCC about wagon stuff because you seem to have a more confident idea of where scum would likely be, and I don’t know where I was going with this. Maybe this is more for her because she’s asking about what conclusions she should draw from EOD and I want her to do some solving with your preassumptions, or something?
Tom, could you talk about Axel top town?
Also - I think your dk read is well formed within itself but the chronology doesn’t match up. It went DV announces pause scene (meaning the shot was called in before that) -> dk claims -> DV announces Gemma flip. That means the dayvig shot before dk’s claim, and dk didn’t react at all to Gemma dying... well, I guess your read was that he would have reacted if mafia, even if that reaction wasn’t paired with his claim? but I find the non-reaction a little suspect as well. Like now I feel as though he should have posted “darn should’ve BGed her” or “oh come on” or something as a villager?!
dk, did it occur to you that you could’ve saved Gemma? Like, did you leave the thread immediately after claiming, or something?
KCC, I understand you haven’t been able to make reads based on your wagons but can you tell me some of your reads based on anything other than that? Like how people have been treating and interacting with you.
I think Vezok should shoot later because plenty of people who have been presented as targets (Nacho, Proph, to a lesser extent Vaimes and me) are V/LA or just got here or are just busy. Can’t say it anyway after Night if they’re dead
Hi Proph! Sorry, I have a bunch of questions about your wall for you:
Re: Killjoy, what do you mean he’s trying to apply lessons learned from previous games?
Tell me more about Silver and Wisp, if you could? Your actual observations there seem kind of... tame compared to the magnitude of read you’re representing - “idk don’t really think he’d do this as mafia” and blue town. Is there something more to it that I’m missing?
What do you think of fulcrum’s towncase on Vaimes wrt both their alignments?
And overall, I’m just wondering - how much of these reads were things you had when you made that post about being caught up to the first 1000, and how much was developed/fully articulated or fleshed out between then and now? Or to put it another way, can you tell me about which reads shifted the most for you between those spots in catchup?
Also, what were you scumreading Grape for before you saw the claim?
@Proph did you see dkings claimed bodyguard when run up on D1? Do you think it's a fake claim/role?
I have a couple of wolf games, yeah. I replaced into both but Unreliable Cops was a pretty early replace into an empty slot (I got lunched D2 in that game).
Ghostbusters (Normal, replaced in late for RE1031, on... D4 I think? Can't remember but it was pretty late.)
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@Keldeo: yeah I can walk you through the wagon
Basically what you said, in a wagon of 5 players there are usually 0~2 wolves in a 17 player game regardless, chance of at least one wolf is pretty good on a town wagon particularly if the other wagon is a wolf. Some of these players like tom actively avoid wagoning partners if it might lead to their lunch, he prides himself on not bussing (though that doesn't mean he doesn't vote/scumread partners, just that he won't push them off a cliff unless he has to)
Has to be like, [Proph] + 1 in [Asta, KCC, Nacho] + 0-1 in [tom, Axel] + 1-2 in [Rhand, fulcrum, Vaimes, Last] right?
This was basically shorthand for:
If KCC is town, it's probably [Proph] + 1 in [Asta, Nacho] + 0-1 in [tom, Axel] + 2 in [Rhand, fulcrum, Vaimes, Last]
If KCC is a wolf, it's probably [Proph] + [KCC] + 0(-1?) in [tom, Axel] + (1?-)2 in [Rhand, fulcrum, Vaimes, Last]
If she's town there's probably a wolf on her, but since the wagon is already mostly villagers I doubt there's a busser in this vote count... Nacho had already retracted the CC at this point. (If there is it's ~pretty much always tom because lolAxel bussing KCC all phase but also kind of just think the wagon is clean here if she's a wolf.)
Though to be most precise, Proph is a member of the names at the end of the list, I just feel worst about him at the moment and he fits on ~every team.
Also, kind of unrelated, but I gifted an orb to Axel last Night in order to confirm the busdrive and it swapped over to Nacho, so we know that KCC is telling the truth here about the busdrive. So yeah, probably town.
She basically was priced into using the Bus drive this way if she was scum, but your confirming its existence is ++
I am, however, somewhat concerned about the gifting of Orbs when the recipient is given no information about what they do/are for. That spins up a lot of possibilities for me a lot of which are sinister.
dkings: My issue with dkings is that he hasn't really done anything notable this game as opposed to Modern, where he was very quickly townread and got to be such a huge problem for the scum that scum!tom had to kill him in plain daylight.
This is almost the same thing Rhand said about dkings, and it's still just as completely wrong. Why are you so wrong here? You modded that game!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
dkings: My issue with dkings is that he hasn't really done anything notable this game as opposed to Modern, where he was very quickly townread and got to be such a huge problem for the scum that scum!tom had to kill him in plain daylight.
This is almost the same thing Rhand said about dkings, and it's still just as completely wrong. Why are you so wrong here? You modded that game!
everyone seems to remember this differently than i do. Just talked about this with chris in an MU game
What i remember is holding the day hostage and forcing a bunch of claims until i thought i couldnt get away with any more and shot dkings at least partially because he was moderately townread with a decent role but no one cared enough for there to be blowback
Like, at the time i didn't think he was an easy mislynch that it was a wasted shot but he certainly wasnt towncore
Tom, you didn't shoot dkings in Modern because you though he was so Townie-looking you were scared of him? Did you? I'm not crazy, right?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
dkings: My issue with dkings is that he hasn't really done anything notable this game as opposed to Modern, where he was very quickly townread and got to be such a huge problem for the scum that scum!tom had to kill him in plain daylight. People have noted that his posts are sterile, and I agree with them. In this game, he started the wagon on vezok, After vezok claimed mason, he kind of floundered for most of Day 1. My issue with him is that, even though he states that he's having trouble engaging with the game, he's not really going through the effort of talking with his scumreads in order to get better reads on them. He's mostly playing passively with regards to them, stating they are mafia without directly questioning them or interrogating them. He hasn't really directly questioned KCC (his main scum read Yesterday) and he seems more content to quiz Vaimes on how his role works, and he hasn't really pressured fulcrum at all despite having her as someone he "wouldn't mind to see die Today".
dkings, why are you not directly questioning/grilling your scum suspects? Why are you content to treat them at arm's length rather than showing everyone why you think X or Y is mafia?
Proph, I find it especially suspect that you of all people are side-eyeing me over this. You’re well aware of how I play. You mentored me years ago and I’ve always modeled a lot of my game from you and Voxxicus.
Much more often that not, I talk to the playerbase at large. I do ask questions to people when I’m trying to get a handle on them, or when something strikes me as odd but I can’t see clear motivation from it. I’ve done it this game... I’ve needled Grape several times but he just ignores it, and I tried to ask Mindreaver questions before he replaced out. But once I’ve nailed down a scum read on someone, I normally just explain it out loud. I’ve never been the type to aggressively badger my suspects or get into quote wars no one wants to read.
Hell, I can pull up examples from how I handled Killjoy in Modern, a game you just hosted *AND* complimented me on how well I projected towniness.
- Not liking Azrael or KCC. Azrael for things mentioned above, KCC because I feel like Fuwa is low-hanging fruit right now and also something about her cheeky demeanor and vote hopping just reads weird to me. That's primarily gut, though.
- Is Axelrod's scum meta to lurk heavily? It's been literal years since I've played a game here but I seem to recall him being a fairly high-content poster as town.
- Killjoy makes me most uneasy of anyone so far. Post 52 has an assertive tone when asking KCC about the switch from Vezok to Fuwa, but then in 59 he doesn't acknowledge her response and says he agrees with her. There is something off about the way he approaches Fuwa in 59 as well... it's wishy-washy and feels like he's tossing a softball out there to see if anyone else picks it up and runs with it. Also, this:
Additionally now, I like the clapback from dk in 106. He didn't just accept my townread lying down. He stopped and analyzed it and said "wait, I haven't done anything townie yet! Where is this coming from?" Scum might prefer not to put themselves out there and draw attention to the townread on themselves which they would know to be wrong (and therefore could collapse under scrutiny).
The bolded part is overexplanation. I don't think anyone, including me, would have questioned this sentiment at all if he had just stopped at "Where is this coming from?"
Tom made post 148 which is annoying to me because it's not analytical at all. It's just like "heres why scum makes that post" withoutany actual thought. It didn't actually come from me, btw. It was Voxx, post 77 of his mentor thread with Proph. " It's very, very rare that 5 town will be on a lynch in a row, especially on town." The reason I said it in the first place is it's something I look for when wagons reach 5 or 6.
There is a huge dose of OMGUS here toward Tom, and more overexplanation with the quote of the Voxx-Proph mentor bible.
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Vezok made a really solid point here. KJ threw a TON of shade at tom in 154, but doesn't put down a vote. He then weakly walks it back in 162...
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Actually that is a good point, @KJ: why no vote in that post?
Unvote cause I’m not quite ready to force a claim.
Because at current none of them are more likely scum than the others. Tom's closest because 148 but he's also Tom who would absolutely make that Post as town as well.
I'm frankly kinda surprised no one else has hit on this yet.
Everyone has either glossed over or ignored the other point I made against Killjoy in the post where I voted him. In 52, he uses a assertive tone toward KCC when he says "walk me through this". He wants an answer. Then, when KCC gives him one just a few posts later, he doesn't acknowledge it and just agrees with her re:Fuwa, with a "toss this out and see if it sticks" vibe.
I'm also back to a lean scum read on Killjoy. He has had a few recent posts (primarily 551 and 578) that have him back on my radar. The first paragraph of 551 feels really unnatural and forced, and KCC picked up on something from 578 that I disliked. Also, KJ kinda disappeared for a while after the pressure on him fell off.
I can’t quote the posts right now because I’m on mobile... Azrael hand-waved my Killjoy case multiple times during D1, then in post 997 he made a point of saying I was upset because people were ignoring my “good” reads. The read in question: the Killjoy case he ***** all over.
Plus KJ’s late day posts about Azrael were super scummy, as was the way he dodged both wagons.
If that’s true, Tom/Axel, would say dkings is ~less likely to be a Proph partner, since I think the read would be more legit if w/w? The read is like, undermining him based on “well he could be townier and he’s not” but the first part isn’t actually true at least in your perception, where as a partner making up a reason to have him where he is, Proph would know there are actually scummy behavioral things about him and might pick at one of those.
This is almost the same thing Rhand said about dkings, and it's still just as completely wrong. Why are you so wrong here? You modded that game!
Dude, you need to let this go. You and Chris were the only two town players who thought I was scum, and Chris even gave up that read before Tom shot me.
Proph using it a handful of times in wall is what brought this to mind, but hes definitely not the first this game. Especially around claims.
The process shouldnt be "why would they _____ as scum?"
It should be why they would do it as town. Because as scum the answer is sometimes just "because thats what id do as town" or even "because i can get away with it"
So take kcc.
That early soft ("i have a scummy role" or whatever) made me want to file her as town and ignore. Partially because as scum you can just fake claim but thats against my own advice lol. But as town its kinda like claiming miller? I assume she knows about the concept from playing before my time but its pretty basic it makes sense.
But then take fonti.
Her CC of axel makes zero goddamn sense to me. And if she did believe it then her handling of axel since then makes no sense to me. So i cant super answer what scumfonti was doing there but like... compared to what
And then theres nacho
Who fake CCed for a reaction test, or, if hes scum... for a reaction test. And because he does that sort of thing/thinks he can get away with it.
I dont think its a good reaction test. And i think it ultimately screwed us out of a productive day 1. But he couldnt possibly know that.
And then vaimes role useage
Which is a mediocre play for towncred regardless of his alignment. When trying to use it as a rolecop is clearly better as either alignment...
Like theres a lot of actions people take in a game that arent something you would do. But just stopping at "why would scum do that?" is lazy and only works if youre reading yourself
dk, did it occur to you that you could’ve saved Gemma? Like, did you leave the thread immediately after claiming, or something?
Actually, yes. If you look back, that was my last post D1.
You aren't familiar with me and you replaced into this game, but I'm not a high activity player in general and I'm virtually never around on weekends. I was neglecting other things I needed to do to check in on this game that Saturday because I knew deadline was approaching, and that's why I went ahead and claimed when I did even though I only had 4 or 5 votes. I needed to go so I had to get it out of the way.
If that’s true, Tom/Axel, would say dkings is ~less likely to be a Proph partner, since I think the read would be more legit if w/w? The read is like, undermining him based on “well he could be townier and he’s not” but the first part isn’t actually true at least in your perception, where as a partner making up a reason to have him where he is, Proph would know there are actually scummy behavioral things about him and might pick at one of those.
i do think dkings is ~less towny~ than in modern, ftr.
But the difference aint that vast imo.
Towniest ive personally seen dkings was big red button
(He was scum)
Vez probably didn't need to happen either but he can be a little reactive like me
Me well I do what I want
If people are going to try "I don't have a read on KCC, but let's flip for info!" Yeah, I'm absolutely going to make them justify what they are supposedly going to benefit from it.
Also, is this our first game together? I feel like I've seen you around before for some reason. Anyway, engaging people when they pressure me is one of my main hunting and sorting tools. It's not defense
Who is a better flip?
Thanks Grape.
mentioned having Silver as a pet scumread.
There are a lot of agonizingly long wallposts. I am losing the will to live.
It’s not that, hard to describe but more of a different flavor. Here is the worst he’s treated me in terms of just not liking me, which eh. He’s easily caught as scum imo, and his treatment would probably spew me town so I dunno why he’d bother, unless he’s just that incapable of not talking about me all the time.
I’ll target you if vezok doesn’t kill you.
It seems to me like people are struggling to stay engaged, so how about vezok axes someone and we move on. I was kidding when I said this game should last six months.
This is basically where I was at. It was almost pointless not to claim, but there was very little reason to claim also. It had been so publicly guessed that there was no secrecy but there practically nothing to gain by claiming at this stage. Just a bad situation with very little game relevance but lot's of fiddly 1%s on what exactly is ideal.
The beauty of Masons is the fact that one can claim while the other stays secret. A huge part of the utility is that it provides two townfirms at the price of one claim. Like I don't understand your insistence that masons must claim as pairs at all. Short of the partner getting vigged there is zero downside to the second not claiming at the same time if the first claims under pressure and that dissipates the wagon. The beauty is that along as it comes before lylo the second claim is always at worst a 1 for 1 even if the first dies.
Our chat has been quiet because we're both busy and our times haven't lined up well but we've been in disagreement over who to target which I suspect has slowed down the decision making. There is also the issue of Proph being a top target for me if he doesn't provide content and waiting and seeing is very relevant for him in particular.
If Proph is scum, he’ll probably thank vezok for killing him. I know I would.
Idk it's clarity, like maybe I am wrong here, but I think if your claim involves someone else confirming then they should.
Change my mind
@tom
Sarcasm or is that supposed to be ur spicy tinfoil?
Like, in sort of his defense I'm pretty sure college finals are this week but he hasn't even laid down more slank cover
Part of me thinks he thinks his slot is a lost cause and not worth trying to save and that feels more like wolf!Proph than town!Proph
But I expected some kind of "I know my slot looks bad but we're not lunching me because I'm town, here's some analysis" regardless of his alignment and it's been a week since his last post
Yes.
I mean, hopefully he isn't dead?
For "between no lynch yesterday and the king mechanic today this is a lazy, low-info day. So lets just get it over with and kill the useless slot"
That i dont hate at all tbh.
But thats yesterdays fault it doesnt make it wrong for today.
It would help if we reach a consensus otherwise I'd just shoot in the top picks.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
What do you think of DKings’s idea?
Some focus would be good I think.
Gemma
Prophylaxis r. Jackrito r. shadowlancerx
vezokpiraka
Grapefruit r. Slothful
Killjoy
Silvercrys3467
Lastwhisper
Nachomamma8
KittyCupCake
Axelrod
Rhand
Keldeo r. Mindreaver
Asta
fulcrum
tomsloger
Vaimes
dkingsland967
vezok: Claimed mason etc.
Grape: He was initially in my null/scumreads but I see he's claimed to be the other mason, which is great. I enjoy playing with town Grape.
Killjoy: Probably my strongest behavioral townread at the moment, mainly due to his early and mid-game play. Basically, I think he's trying to apply lessons learned from previous games in this one and I think he's doing a fantastic job of it. He had some good questions in post 92 and I liked the discourse between him and Gemma early game and midgame:
This doesn't feel at all like how scum!KJ would treat a fairly competent and active town player here. Feels more likely that he would just shoo Gemma by the wayside and kind of let her do her thing if he was scum, rather than treat her awkwardly like this.
Liked his posts 788 and 954, these posts show a lot of transparency WRT thought process (specifically the part where he talks about Mindreaver's Hulk Hogan bravado and he compares Mind's behavior to himself).
Silvercrys: Haven't played with Silver in a while, so I am not sure what advancements he has made to his meta (Silver: Do you have a completed scum game thus far?). His 45 initially pinged me a little bit - the "Mrgle" felt a little fake and it felt like scum trying to push out of RVS awkwardly (Nacho's 62 explained why I didn't like Silver's post 45 far more intelligently than I can). This initially prickled me but I liked his engagement with Nacho coming out of RVS (Nacho/Silver also probably not aligned). I agreed with him on what he said about the Mindreaver posts and I liked his play in the middle of Day 1; he was kind of complaining about "THERE'S NOTHING TO DO!" but I appreciated the quote chain of replies and the Axel ISO. His Axel ISO feels like he doesn't know Axel's alignment; there's a type of nuance and wishy-washiness in that post that I think is quite difficult to fake if he's scum here.
Lastwhisper: He's definitely acting like his usual self, and it's a little different reading him on a site like this where he's not a big fish in a small pond like his home site and more of an average player. Would like to sync up with him at some point because that's how we won a game over the summer. I liked where he was at on page 5 because his reads largely tracked with me at the time. I think Last is town because I've played with him a couple of times as town and just modded a game where he played scum. In that game, I felt like Last was less interested in solving and more interested in using his posting style as a way to throw people off in that people would never really bother to reread his posts until endgame because his style is kind of unlike the usual MTGS fare. In this game he's a lot more focused on trying to get people to interact with him and I think he's also poking in a lot of places I wouldn't expect scum!Last to poke. Think that his beef with Vaimes is kind of NAI but my gut tells me that he wouldn't make a huge show of it if he was mafia. Kind of want to interact with him more (and I'm sure I'll get the chance to) to really iron out this read but I think he's a good guy here (and I want him to be town tbh).
Nachomamma8: Yet another player I haven't played with in quite a while (last time must have been Gemma's 2666 Mafia, right?) - First off, I liked his play on page 2. Stirring stuff up then evaluating reactions to it while being semi-transparent doing so gets the thumbs up from me. I might be a sucker for posts that very clearly explain the player's thought process and reasoning for what they do, but I really like Nacho's 240 and how he was playing in general? His play early game still makes a fair amount of sense to me and he's still trying to solve here. He then kind of disappears in the middle of Day 1 (I assume due to Black Friday shenanigans and working retail etc). Specifically what I liked in his catchup post is him making a good point about dk's sterilness. Liked Nacho's approach in 1400 with regards to KCC, specifically the "you need to give me something here" quote. His post 1404 is also good wrt dkings.
Then I got to the part where Nacho fake-CCs KCC. What is the mafia motivation for scum!Nacho to CC here? I could be not thinking through things deeply enough, but if Nacho is scum and KCC is town, my guess is that he would have probably continued to push KCC and not risk drawing attention to himself by CCing, knowing that if he keeps making solid posts he probably wouldn't be suspected or lynched for a couple more Days at least. Him CCing then retracting the CC.. makes more sense to me from town!Nacho, because (to be honest) KCC's posts were pretty lackluster up until she got run up, then she started to send more clear townie signals (like the reads list and how she claimed her role). I can.. sort of understand town Nacho being like "ok, I'm doubting my own read on KCC after those past few posts, let me retract this CC".
It's like a super ballsy play if he's scum here and I don't think that he would risk it in a playerbase like this, where generally being reasonable and active can get you to endgame. I don't know Nacho extremely well and it's possible he snows me like this but I don't thiiiiiink he's mafia?
KittyCupCake: My read on her is sort of related to my read on Nacho. The very first thing I noted when I began to read the thread was looking at her post 5. My read on that post is weak, but I doooon't think this is an angle she takes as scum?
Granted, I don't have a lot of experience with scum!KCC, but I recall most of her scum victories were games where she won in an overwhelming fashion, playing super clean and not being heavily suspected. (Thinking about The Wall Mafia where she avoided nearly all suspicion). Now, that game was four years ago, but I don't think scum!KCC says this and then makes the mess of a claim she made at late EoD1. I think scum!KCC is a lot more cunning and would just play.. differently than this if she was mafia. Also Rhand's 309 tracks with what i was saying about KCC's post 5, which is good for him.
Just been thinking about KCC's role and.. not super inclined to think it's a hit. Can see worlds where town KCC looks at her role and claims early "my role is super scummy" but the scum counterpart to that is like, she doesn't claim early, then she obscures parts of her claim and makes it /sound/ town-like? Just kind of lacking in self awareness here. KCC's more convoluted ability IMO has to be a true part of her claim since I doubt that she would ever make that up as mafia. Like KCC's reads list; feels like it's from a townie about to die rather than scum clamming up (esp the stuff she says to Gemma about retaining her snarkiness in the spec chat; that's kiind of the roundabout thing that is natural for townies to think about but scum struggle to emulate).
Also, kind of unrelated, but I gifted an orb to Axel last Night in order to confirm the busdrive and it swapped over to Nacho, so we know that KCC is telling the truth here about the busdrive. So yeah, probably town.
Axelrod: My read on Axelrod was kind of all over the place when I was reading. Originally I found his posts early game to be quite underwhelming, and I said that I wanted pressure on Slothful/Axel because they both weren't really Doing Anything. Axel early game was mostly nitpicking at his own various issues, which didn't really give me a great sense of his alignment. Also wasn't a fan of his case on Mindreaver because it felt like he was trying to pick on low hanging fruit. I recall both scumreading Axel and Vaimes at one point but then backing off on that because I don't think the both of them are aligned. Then I saw the watcher claim, which is fine in my books. I like his Day 2 play a lot more than his Day 1 play; his going over reasoning why people were voting him reads as solvey and not agenda-driven. Coupled with the Watcher claim I'm willing to reverse my stance on him early game and I like him as town. Do think that if there any deep scum then he is worth re-examining because watcher claim isn't end-all be-all and his early game stuff kind of tripped me up a bit, but I've appreciated his analysis of his wagonees Today.
Rhand: Yet another person that I keep going back and forth on. I wasn't the biggest fan of his early game because he wasn't doing a whole lot, but I liked his early reads list because he dived into his thought process quite a bit (and tbh, it was helpful to someone like me who was catching up). His 309 I liked quite a bit because he thought the same thing as me WRT KCC. Another post I liked from him was post 770 since it's a pretty candid look at his mindset and why he is playing the way he is playing. Then the thing that I'm still kind of struggling with is how he voted KJ and was convinced he was scum; I disagree with that heavily because KJ is literally my top behavioral town read right now, and that made me scumread him when I was reading the thread. However, now that I think about it more, I don't think scum!Rhand willingly impales himself on a spear to lynch town!KJ if he is indeed scum. I agree with him WRT Vaimes being scum. So yeah, there's a couple of stuff that makes me think that he's town, but I'd like to engage with him more and get a better feeling on where he's at.
Keldeo: Keldeo I want to more of a deep dive on, because I thought Mindreaver displayed some decent townie tonal tells. WRT the Mindreaver slot, I liked his 280 for a catchup post and I sort of liked his 297, in particular the "will anyone talk to me" jam? Seems natural for a townie to has just caught up, to have someone want to engage with them on their readwall. Here's the thing that I was basing most of my Mind townread on, and I'm aware it's pretty weak in isolation:
This is something that I don't think scum!Mindreaver posts? It feels like over the top bravado but it's bravado in a way where I think that scum Mindreaver would think twice about posting it and then decide not to.
WRT Keldeo specifically, I'd like to do a full ISO of him soonish when finals are over. I recall liking his first post, reinforces my read on the Mind slot quite a bit. Think they're displaying a lot of nuance in their catchup which I am a fan of.
Asta: His posts kind of seem to be On the Face to be newb scum? I would expect newb scum generally to lurk and be somewhat disengaged with the thread, and Asta is kind of enthusiastic and people with more experience than him than me tell me that this is his town self, so I guess he's okay in my book? Asta seems to be lacking in self awareness to be noob scum, possibly? 935 is a pretty nice post that explains their thought process.
I'm not really convinced that his double vote is a reason to townread him because we have masons in the game, but he seems behaviorally fine for me.
------
My reads thus far are more negative space reads where I have reasons for liking everyone else, so these people are kind of left by the wayside as my scumreads.
fulcrum: Simply put, I suck at reading her and I know her scum game is fairly solid, but she hasn't really done anything that is out of her range or screams villager to me. Think she's been playing very curt and somewhat guarded for most of the game which is naturally difficult to read. One of the posts I couldn't really understand even reading through it a bunch of times was her 337; I believe it was a decent look at her thought process but I was literally reading that entire paragraph like 2-3 times though and it made my eyes glaze over.
I'm not really sure what to make of her CC attempt other than the fact that I think what she claimed and Axel's role can coexist.
I dunno; I think I would like to do a full ISO of her at some point (and I'll probably get around to doing so) but I can just point to everyone else and tell you a reason why I think they're town. I see some like, minor town tells for fulcrum, but I can't build that towncase like I can for others. Maybe it's just because I've historically been Not Great at reading her, but that's where I'm at at this point.
tomsloger: To be frank I ignored most of his posts because I was catching up and don't have time to play interpreter to his gimmicks. I see that he's posted a LOT more and is no longer doing the song lyrics thing, so I will do my best to divine his alignment when I have some more free time. Other than that, negative space etc.
Now for the two people I am actually interested in seeing get the noose today: Vaimes and dkings..
Vaimes: Generally when Vaimes is town, he makes it pretty obvious, and I am not seeing the energy/tonal townie tells I am fairly used to seeing from him. When I was doing my read-through I thought that it was a lock that one of Axelrod or Vaimes was mafia and I now think that Axel is town, so yeah. Just wasn't a huge fan of his Nacho pressure in the early game when there was a fair amount else also going on and he just chose to latch onto Nacho. Then he hopped onto the Axel wagon and then hopped to the dk wagon for a little bit, then moved back onto Axelrod. The common trend with all of these votes is that he's mostly just following/bandwagoning other people rather than pursuing things really for himself, and also not the biggest fan of him voting Mindreaver when he was defending him. I understand his stated reasoning (929) but I feel like town Vaimes would dig in a little bit and avoid lynching people he's townreading as opposed to limp noodle voting him just because everyone else is and the game was stagnating around Mind. He was just latching onto Axel for most of Day 1 which makes me think he's a bad guy?
Not a whole lot to say about his claim - think he's probably trueclaiming as either alignment about being an inventor, and I think that worlds where he trades with vezok in order to get some town cred exist.
Vaimes, why do you think Nacho is mafia? Is it purely because of the chaos he started at EoD1? What do you think about the points I raise?
dkings: My issue with dkings is that he hasn't really done anything notable this game as opposed to Modern, where he was very quickly townread and got to be such a huge problem for the scum that scum!tom had to kill him in plain daylight. People have noted that his posts are sterile, and I agree with them. In this game, he started the wagon on vezok, After vezok claimed mason, he kind of floundered for most of Day 1. My issue with him is that, even though he states that he's having trouble engaging with the game, he's not really going through the effort of talking with his scumreads in order to get better reads on them. He's mostly playing passively with regards to them, stating they are mafia without directly questioning them or interrogating them. He hasn't really directly questioned KCC (his main scum read Yesterday) and he seems more content to quiz Vaimes on how his role works, and he hasn't really pressured fulcrum at all despite having her as someone he "wouldn't mind to see die Today".
dkings, why are you not directly questioning/grilling your scum suspects? Why are you content to treat them at arm's length rather than showing everyone why you think X or Y is mafia?
Still in the middle of finals week, which is why I've largely been inactive, but I should be all ready to go after Christmas/holidays.
Would prefer not to die since there are a lot of people here I'd like to play with, but I understand given that this slot virtually did not participate at all Day 1.
Don't think I have a very accurate view of the gamestate compared to people who have been playing this game since the beginning, but hopefully I gave some of you a perspective change since reading this thread is a S L O G.
Top shot choices for tom would be dkings/Vaimes/X. Kind of want a flip either way; operating on the single Gemma flip was quite tough and I need more flips to confirm my worldview or not.
Will be back tomorrow hopefully catching up on the most recent ~200/300 posts, I've skimmed but haven't gotten a chance to digest things deeply.
Want to actually ISO tomsloger and Keldeo eventually and form more tangible opinions on those slots.
Asta actually feels like he’s projecting / reading what he wants to read into my posts, like the whole hedging because not enough info when that was never a reason I gave. iirc he did this in Wonka but I haven’t actually gone back and checked yet.
Silver, could you walk me through this “have to be” world? Like, through what wagon-derived thought process did you arrive at that particular set of people, why the wagon formation at this moment in time. Is it just “1 wolf on a 5 person wagon on a villager”, because there’s also that KCC could be one of the wolves in such a world but then her wagon isn’t treated differently? Also, why’s KJ spewed town in a world where I’m town/spewed by who or in what sense?
Also also, I feel like you should like, talk to KCC about wagon stuff because you seem to have a more confident idea of where scum would likely be, and I don’t know where I was going with this. Maybe this is more for her because she’s asking about what conclusions she should draw from EOD and I want her to do some solving with your preassumptions, or something?
Tom, could you talk about Axel top town?
Also - I think your dk read is well formed within itself but the chronology doesn’t match up. It went DV announces pause scene (meaning the shot was called in before that) -> dk claims -> DV announces Gemma flip. That means the dayvig shot before dk’s claim, and dk didn’t react at all to Gemma dying... well, I guess your read was that he would have reacted if mafia, even if that reaction wasn’t paired with his claim? but I find the non-reaction a little suspect as well. Like now I feel as though he should have posted “darn should’ve BGed her” or “oh come on” or something as a villager?!
dk, did it occur to you that you could’ve saved Gemma? Like, did you leave the thread immediately after claiming, or something?
KCC, I understand you haven’t been able to make reads based on your wagons but can you tell me some of your reads based on anything other than that? Like how people have been treating and interacting with you.
Re: Killjoy, what do you mean he’s trying to apply lessons learned from previous games?
Tell me more about Silver and Wisp, if you could? Your actual observations there seem kind of... tame compared to the magnitude of read you’re representing - “idk don’t really think he’d do this as mafia” and blue town. Is there something more to it that I’m missing?
What do you think of fulcrum’s towncase on Vaimes wrt both their alignments?
And overall, I’m just wondering - how much of these reads were things you had when you made that post about being caught up to the first 1000, and how much was developed/fully articulated or fleshed out between then and now? Or to put it another way, can you tell me about which reads shifted the most for you between those spots in catchup?
Also, what were you scumreading Grape for before you saw the claim?
I no longer want to kill you for now!
Anyway that was genuinely impressive and so much more thorough and thoughtful than my catchup.
One question for you what do you make of Fulcrum hard defending Vaimes if you've reached that point yet?
I have a couple of wolf games, yeah. I replaced into both but Unreliable Cops was a pretty early replace into an empty slot (I got lunched D2 in that game).
Unreliable Cops (Micro, replaced AbuHumaid.)
Ghostbusters (Normal, replaced in late for RE1031, on... D4 I think? Can't remember but it was pretty late.)
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@Keldeo: yeah I can walk you through the wagon
Basically what you said, in a wagon of 5 players there are usually 0~2 wolves in a 17 player game regardless, chance of at least one wolf is pretty good on a town wagon particularly if the other wagon is a wolf. Some of these players like tom actively avoid wagoning partners if it might lead to their lunch, he prides himself on not bussing (though that doesn't mean he doesn't vote/scumread partners, just that he won't push them off a cliff unless he has to)
This was basically shorthand for:
If KCC is town, it's probably [Proph] + 1 in [Asta, Nacho] + 0-1 in [tom, Axel] + 2 in [Rhand, fulcrum, Vaimes, Last]
If KCC is a wolf, it's probably [Proph] + [KCC] + 0(-1?) in [tom, Axel] + (1?-)2 in [Rhand, fulcrum, Vaimes, Last]
If she's town there's probably a wolf on her, but since the wagon is already mostly villagers I doubt there's a busser in this vote count... Nacho had already retracted the CC at this point. (If there is it's ~pretty much always tom because lolAxel bussing KCC all phase but also kind of just think the wagon is clean here if she's a wolf.)
Though to be most precise, Proph is a member of the names at the end of the list, I just feel worst about him at the moment and he fits on ~every team.
She basically was priced into using the Bus drive this way if she was scum, but your confirming its existence is ++
I am, however, somewhat concerned about the gifting of Orbs when the recipient is given no information about what they do/are for. That spins up a lot of possibilities for me a lot of which are sinister.
This is almost the same thing Rhand said about dkings, and it's still just as completely wrong. Why are you so wrong here? You modded that game!
Because if hes town im not gonna see that in a big prepared post
Especially keldeo/nacho
What i remember is holding the day hostage and forcing a bunch of claims until i thought i couldnt get away with any more and shot dkings at least partially because he was moderately townread with a decent role but no one cared enough for there to be blowback
Like, at the time i didn't think he was an easy mislynch that it was a wasted shot but he certainly wasnt towncore
Proph, I find it especially suspect that you of all people are side-eyeing me over this. You’re well aware of how I play. You mentored me years ago and I’ve always modeled a lot of my game from you and Voxxicus.
Much more often that not, I talk to the playerbase at large. I do ask questions to people when I’m trying to get a handle on them, or when something strikes me as odd but I can’t see clear motivation from it. I’ve done it this game... I’ve needled Grape several times but he just ignores it, and I tried to ask Mindreaver questions before he replaced out. But once I’ve nailed down a scum read on someone, I normally just explain it out loud. I’ve never been the type to aggressively badger my suspects or get into quote wars no one wants to read.
Hell, I can pull up examples from how I handled Killjoy in Modern, a game you just hosted *AND* complimented me on how well I projected towniness.
Dude, you need to let this go. You and Chris were the only two town players who thought I was scum, and Chris even gave up that read before Tom shot me.
What are the odds vezok and Grape are actually neighbors and Grape convinced her to claim mason if she got run up?
(Don't laugh, it's happened to me)
The process shouldnt be "why would they _____ as scum?"
It should be why they would do it as town. Because as scum the answer is sometimes just "because thats what id do as town" or even "because i can get away with it"
So take kcc.
That early soft ("i have a scummy role" or whatever) made me want to file her as town and ignore. Partially because as scum you can just fake claim but thats against my own advice lol. But as town its kinda like claiming miller? I assume she knows about the concept from playing before my time but its pretty basic it makes sense.
But then take fonti.
Her CC of axel makes zero goddamn sense to me. And if she did believe it then her handling of axel since then makes no sense to me. So i cant super answer what scumfonti was doing there but like... compared to what
And then theres nacho
Who fake CCed for a reaction test, or, if hes scum... for a reaction test. And because he does that sort of thing/thinks he can get away with it.
I dont think its a good reaction test. And i think it ultimately screwed us out of a productive day 1. But he couldnt possibly know that.
And then vaimes role useage
Which is a mediocre play for towncred regardless of his alignment. When trying to use it as a rolecop is clearly better as either alignment...
Like theres a lot of actions people take in a game that arent something you would do. But just stopping at "why would scum do that?" is lazy and only works if youre reading yourself
Actually, yes. If you look back, that was my last post D1.
You aren't familiar with me and you replaced into this game, but I'm not a high activity player in general and I'm virtually never around on weekends. I was neglecting other things I needed to do to check in on this game that Saturday because I knew deadline was approaching, and that's why I went ahead and claimed when I did even though I only had 4 or 5 votes. I needed to go so I had to get it out of the way.
Or ever shot for that reason anyway?
But the difference aint that vast imo.
Towniest ive personally seen dkings was big red button
(He was scum)