Alright so let me just come clean about my role because there are a lot of questions about it and I'd like to get them answered in this one post.
I'm Prospero, Town Enchanter.
My spring ability is I can give someone a green orb at Night.
My summer ability is that I can give someone a yellow orb at Night.
My winter ability is that I can give someone a blue orb at Night.
My fall ability is that I can give someone a orange orb at Night.
In addition, X times per game during the Day, I can pick an orb and give it to another player during the Day once per Day.
Proph, how did you attempt to give an orange orb? It was spring overnight.
Like I'm not dreaming, right? It was spring, so the simplest explanation is that he just bungled a fake claim (apparently again) by mixing up his orb colors.
But, especially with silver priming the "color of spring" thing, I don't get... why he would lie about which colors of orbs he can give out when?
But at the same time I doubt it was just an innocent mixing up of two colors because, and this might be the silliest read I’ll make, “Orange” is capitalized - he must’ve consciously done that.
I have more thoughts but I want Proph to explain first.
I guess I just don't understand why villager!Axel didn't just summarize his thoughts. That seems like a much more natural course of action, rather than copy/pasting a monologue that, if he's telling the truth, originally was not meant to be read by anyone. I have an easier time seeing scum taking that course of action to "prove" that they're a villager, rather than just being a villager.
What is it about his role that has you townreading him? How much stock are you putting into that in a closed setup?
Vaimes, what’s your take on this now that Axel has said he wrote it with the intent to possibly post itt? Was there more behind this read?
I guess the question for everyone is do we think the increased majority threshold is tied to Wisp's ability?
I don't think it is but that seems to be the consensus in the thread.
I ask because if it is due to Wisp we should definitely take a serious look at him today. Because it's decidedly anti town.
I had a fleeting thought it’s related to Gemma but that’s pretty unrealistic given how long ago she died. I think it’s either Wisp, or someone alive who did it on purpose and won’t claim it because like you said, it’s anti-town, and so they’re probably mafia.
If it’s the former - working off a sample size of 1.5 here but it might be possible all of Wisp’s abilities affect the lynch somehow?
KJ, search “Axel” in my ISO. I feel like I’ve answered some variants of your question several times now.
Vaimes, if I should take this as you not having more feelings about Axel after what he said, then you don’t need to answer my previous question either >_>”
Man I’m still wondering how you mess up capital-O orange and green if you’re not like... thinking about orange for some reason... I guess it’s probably moot because even if it was a messed up claim that’s probably not what’ll do it in.
Don’t /really/ think KCC/Proph and to a lesser extent fulcrum/Proph are wolves based on the former’s approach to the latter toDay. Read might be based on silly things.
Rhand, if you don’t think I have taken hard stances so far this game, I don’t know if I will take what you see as hard stances, ever. Being super confident is just not how my mind/style work.
My thinking that the masons are legit is strengthened because tonight I felt like grape isn’t pushing an agenda or posting like he knows people’s alignments. This weighs more heavily to me than claimed masons disagreeing or not being up-to-date on each other’s views, I think that’s realistic given what they’ve shown in thread.
Without further clarification from Asta, my only thought about the situation between him and dk is that they’re probably not partners either, with dk going against Asta’s claimed alert thing like this? Which probably means they’re v/v, or less likely, if one is w it’s dk. There’s the argument that Asta accidentally TMIed dk’s action going through because he knew dk was town, and had to make up an excuse for it somehow, but I don’t think Asta would just randomly make up mod confirmation as mafia. Also, Wisp, I think Asta is townier because he’s the counter to an ~anti town mechanic.
I have thoughts about KCC/Wisp as well, but I don’t trust my ability to express them intelligently right now, haha... some of Wisp’s emotion reads strangely to me in the exchange, but I just don’t really think he is a wolf, is what it boils down to.
Wisp, you said a KCC flip would help you solve the KCC wagon? The wagon was dkings, Killjoy, tomsloger, Asta, Asta, vezokpiraka, Lastwhisper. So that’s a flipped town, you, your townread KJ, one of the masons, dkings/Asta, and you can add me even though I wasn’t on at EOD. What do you think you would get out of her flipping either way?
Vezok, is there some way I/we could help with the feeling out of the game? It feels like activity dropped off a lot today, and I know that’s probably due to the holidays and life stuff, but it’s not something I’d like to continue if we can help it.
this is just going to be back and forth between what you believe, and what I am saying
and several people in the thread have literally skimmed past us arguing
Killjoy said something, but clearly no one seems to care about us, from what I recall
Can't really say much here; again, I think my role's strength is in the lategame where I can potentially target a lot of the living players with orbs so players would be doc'd/roleblocked/get told ability names. Obviously can't do much now.
If you think I am mafia, KCC, why are you not voting me?
I think you're probably scum mechanically, but I also want more than that. And your explanations for things have all lined up and do make sense if you're telling the truth
The two abilities thing is actually part of my point. He's used three abilities and we've only seen the results of two of them. The paranoid part of me thinks the third did something we haven't seen (and that's why Wisp was on the "maybe I blocked the kill" idea to cover for the missing ability).
If all of the abilities are dramatically game altering, I think Tranquility is probably just that, a Day of peace, with no effect. That makes the most sense to me. Which, if he's scum, would have to mean either
1) He is actually completely in the dark about what the abilities do, but that seems kinda weird on scum or
2) He does know more or all of the effect, but needs to pick one every Night, and just wanted to get that blank one out of the way first. But I don't think that really makes sense as scum play either or
3) He actually didn't get a N0 ability and false claimed it knowing his future abilities would alter the Title, or similarly, a Tranquility ability was actually chosen automatically N0, because breaking D1 is probably bad game design?
The more I'm thinking about it... We could have had D1 96 hour kingmaker? Or D1 unanimous lynch? And we just all got lucky he picked an ability that didn't do anything, at least not anything noticable?
Also, Vezok, are you not swayed by fulcrum’s towncase on Vaimes, if you think she’s town/not mafia?
Proph - when you were answering my question about TRing Vaimes, you quoted one post he made about him feeling drained, which you’d already pointed out when discussing the read at first. Are there others you could point to?
Man I’m still wondering how you mess up capital-O orange and green if you’re not like... thinking about orange for some reason... I guess it’s probably moot because even if it was a messed up claim that’s probably not what’ll do it in.
Yeah, if he's scum, it probably happened from mixing up parts of a complex false claim. But if he's town, it's probably just because his abilities are a list of flavorless colors and super easy to mix up. I'm actually leaning towards him being a little less cautious with the details as town here
KCC, who do you think Proph’s partners are if he is mafia?
No idea. I'm not putting energy into team building unflipped players. Especially when I'm not convinced he's scum to start with. Like, despite all the mechanical issues, I'm caught up on why a scumProph would ever target Axel. He confirms my ability? He let's me effectively choose the target? What could the orb possibly do where that makes sense from scum?
Rhand: Given that KCC moved from a potential scum to Nacho with you, who is now confirmed town, does that affect your townread on her?
No. I was happy when she voted Nacho with me. She seems to be the only one to understand me this game. She’s 100% different from the Watchmen wanted micro.
7. Rhand - Probably scum. His reads and his play have been very cautious. To me he seemed like he built justification for reads after deciding on them
I don’t do that as either alignment.
About being cautious: I can’t find anything to bite into this game. When I get convinced someone is scum, my teeth will come out.
I’m going to reread Vaimes and see if I can convince you to lynch him without having to claim my role.
I would really appreciate some meta input on Keldeo.
And toMorrow we should probably massclaim. Until that, I don’t think we should try to evaluate the roleblocking stuff. I have the feeling that that + 1 bodyguard is all we have against the night kill, and since it’s all seasonal, that is not an extreme amount.
Oh and what I think we should do is treat this as a normal Day: claim range at 6 votes, lynch threshold 8. We lynch whoever gets to 8, regardless of reads.
Heh I think I found the answer to the Vaimes riddle.
Our roles are too similar to both be in town, but I think he's not mafia either and this is a crumb:
@Axel, just something I've been wondering and probably irrelevant, you said you were "Moth, Fairy Town Watcher." Do you know what the "fairy" means?
I do not know what it means. I assumed it was a character of some type. Given "Oberon" and "Titania", I just assume that a lot, if not all of us, are "Fairys." I would be slightly interested if Oberon and Titania were not also listed as "Fairy" in their role PMs. But then I'm slightly paranoid that Fairly could be a "type" that matters in some way, maybe for someone's abilities, and anyone else claiming to be one could be negatively impacted in some way?
I think Proph is more likely scum than not here. Too many RBs. The ability is awful and useless as claimed, way worse than my Winter which is already one of the worst abilities I've ever seen, like to the point of being nonsense. I think he probably tried to keep it close to his real ability, but also tried changing it to sound less scummy and just ended up with a ridiculous mess
My first impression might be along these lines, since it just seems like so much work to set this ability up to ever do anything? The way the seasons shift around, and you have to give someone two Orbs first, one being specifically Orange, and then they have to target someone else you have given an Orb? It's so convoluted and difficult to ever do anything. Much less anything you actually want to happen.
On the other hand, this game appears designed specifically to mess with my ability to game the set-up, so, congrats DV. Maybe if I was in my right mind right now.
I think Keledo's recent posting is pretty strong and engaged and I'm not interested in looking at him right now. I want to see if I can get anywhere with Rhand. I know there were at least one or two flags for me at some point. We'll see.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
vezok, me not posting isn’t alignment indicative. You said yourself your and Grape are having a hard time posting. That’s just the vibe. Also you’ve flip flopped on me probably five times now.
Rhand, I am town. Totally not a neutral.
Keldeo, I think it’s a little weird he wrote that with the intention of posting it. Probably less scummy for admitting it, but the way he kinda tried to pass it off as a natural thing feels much different from a post he intended to share. Does that make sense?
Also I think people are doing too much talking and not enough consolidating. I’m happy to move over to one of my non-townreads, once DV posts a votal. Or if someone is tracking votes.
"totally not neutral" why would u choose that wording?
@vaimes
Vaimes' sometimes I feel like you are fine, and other times you are just playing 3rd party to the thread
@kcc
So you are taking the "why would scum ever do that approach" in regards to Proph? Also in regards to you statements on me and fulcrum, you have yet to say anything that I recall on fulcrum, but solely focused on me. What do you think of Rhand putting you as a town lean because of meta based on the fact he doesn't think you are being manipulative
I don’t believe you. If you’re not neutral, you’re mafia.
Not that you’re going to admit that, but I’m sure.
I kind of feel like, if you're going to make a claim like this, then you ought to be claiming also, and not being vague about it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I can't really say anything more on my ability since I already said everything, kingmaker isn't anti-town and I still don't see the how prophecy caused majority to increase, but clearly something did
Rhand, I agree that the “can’t say certain things or my ability will get taken away” is weird, but why would neutral Vaimes imply he was neutral in the first place? I think he was the first person to even mention the possibility of a third party.
Rhand, I agree that the “can’t say certain things or my ability will get taken away” is weird, but why would neutral Vaimes imply he was neutral in the first place? I think he was the first person to even mention the possibility of a third party.
What are you talking about with the bolded? Did I miss something?
The first one to mention the neutral often is the neutral
Rhand, I agree that the “can’t say certain things or my ability will get taken away” is weird, but why would neutral Vaimes imply he was neutral in the first place? I think he was the first person to even mention the possibility of a third party.
why would town!Vaimes imply that?
the first person to mention neutral's is usually the neutral or a wolf? or maybe bad town? but Vaimes isnt really bad town player?
Alright so let me just come clean about my role because there are a lot of questions about it and I'd like to get them answered in this one post.
I'm Prospero, Town Enchanter.
My spring ability is I can give someone a green orb at Night.
My summer ability is that I can give someone a yellow orb at Night.
My winter ability is that I can give someone a blue orb at Night.
My fall ability is that I can give someone a orange orb at Night.
In addition, X times per game during the Day, I can pick an orb and give it to another player during the Day once per Day.
If a player with a green orb targets a player with an green or orange orb, they are roleblocked.
If a player with a yellow orb targets a player with a yellow or orange orb, their ability name is told to the player that is targeted.
If a player with a blue orb targets a player with a blue or orange orb, that player is protected from the first nightkill to target them during that Night. Orange orbs have no effect but make the other orbs work.
Day 1 - shadow targets vezok with a blue orb.
Night 1 - I target Axel with a yellow orb. Gave my orb to Nacho instead.
Night 2 - I target dkings with a green orb. I was roleblocked.
Gonna try to explain how I think this works because people seem to be saying this role doesn't come online at all until Fall and that just... isn't true as claimed
He says he has an X-shot Day ability to give an orb of any color, and that each Night he can give an orb whose color depends on the season
So on D1 shadow gives Vezok a blue orb (I believe this happened before Vezok claimed?)
So the thing is that he could have just spammed green orbs everywhere and roleblocked a bunch of people
The thing that makes me hrm about the role being wolfy is that it's so loud it seems.... bad on a wolf lol
I think the likelihood is high given how many abilities give out ability names that the wolves aren't fakeclaiming (or at least mostly aren't), which means that they're claiming their real roles or haven't claimed yet
And that brings me to why I think KCC and Proph are a dichotomy; they're both manipulative multi-use roles and KCC's role is a lot more useful for a wolf. Tom's role isn't "merely" a Fall jailkeeper, he also had a Spring Lightning Rod ability and a Winter ability to partially vanillaize, and I'm having a hard time believing all of this manipulation power is town given how weak the investigative abilities are
Proph got roleblocked, which no wolf is roleblocking an unclaimed over anything we have claimed right now
so either he is bull*****ting, or he got roleblocked by a town roleblocker
I believe KCC said she has a roleblock as one of her abilities? but honestly from how she is talking to proph it doesnt look like she had anything to do with it. I do really recall how her abilities work again though or what seasons they are usuable in without isoing her
Responding to this, nothing we have claimed did very much during Spring so why wouldn't they have wanted to roleblock Proph, who is giving out mysterious items with unknown powers?
Rhand, I agree that the “can’t say certain things or my ability will get taken away” is weird, but why would neutral Vaimes imply he was neutral in the first place? I think he was the first person to even mention the possibility of a third party.
What are you talking about with the bolded? Did I miss something?
The first one to mention the neutral often is the neutral
It’s what he said about “there's some things about the items I can't say”. He talked about it in more explicit terms earlier, I’ll see if I can find the posts later because this is from memory.
It’s weird because if he’s telling the truth, I don’t understand what he shouldn’t be able to say from a game design perspective. But me not understanding something doesn’t mean it can’t exist, and obviously he’s not gonna tell us.
Oh, I didn’t consider that, silver. Are you saying that Proph’s townier because if he was a wolf he’d have given out more green orbs or something during the day, to maximize blocking?
(Obviously we don’t know for sure that he hasn’t but Vezok got notification of the blue orb, so we can assume his day orb giving is also loud, right.)
Oh, I didn’t consider that, silver. Are you saying that Proph’s townier because if he was a wolf he’d have given out more green orbs or something during the day, to maximize blocking?
(Obviously we don’t know for sure that he hasn’t but Vezok got notification of the blue orb, so we can assume his day orb giving is also loud, right.)
Kind of. I'm saying that people saying the roles aren't a dichotomy because role block couldn't come online until Fall are wrong because he could have given out green orbs with the day ability.
I have a reservation in that I'm not sure town!shadow randomly gives a blue orb to Vezok when he isn't sure of her alignment, that's definitely a wolf shadow move to try to pocket her I think.
(I'm working on responding to your other stuff in another tab, didn't want you to think I'm ignoring you lol)
Oh and what I think we should do is treat this as a normal Day: claim range at 6 votes, lynch threshold 8. We lynch whoever gets to 8, regardless of reads.
So you are taking the "why would scum ever do that approach" in regards to Proph?
Can you come up with any possible effect the orb could have, where he'd intentionally let me busdrive it, not caring if I hit town or scum? And also confirming my ability with it?
Like, what's the play there? An elaborate ploy to pocket me, while I'm teetering near mislynch? I'm just having trouble picturing any way it'd make sense
What do you think of Rhand putting you as a town lean because of meta based on the fact he doesn't think you are being manipulative
If he's town, it's a good read, which I expect. He is the one person in this game who I'd bet can reliably read me, I lasted all of 2 seconds in Watchmen. He said I don't seem to be pushing an agenda here, which, yeah, my scumgame is to emulate the strongest parts of my town play, and I would not rank this among my more aggressive town games so far. On the other hand, if he's scum, he kinda has to make that read too though. I think he respects my town game enough to be wary of stirring up trouble with me under the best circumstances, but especially here when I'm the only one really townreading him.
I mean, I still think he's town, but this particular thing probably isn't AI at all.
I haven't really seen much to tug at, is the thing, most of my inquiries turned up nothing and we don't have a red flip yet
Especially right now when I'm basically just keeping up with thread
There's stuff I want to go back and look at when I have more free time, with tom/Nacho dead town but... yeah
I doubt Proph is an arsonist, he very definitely could be a wolf though
I'd be willing to lunch him or KCC/Last/Rhand/Keldeo, still prefer Rhand at the moment though, I think
vote: Rhand
Can you tell me more about why Rhand out of that group of 4?
Also, what changed for you on KCC, and why do you think Last is scummy?
Answer to all of this is "PoE", I've basically eliminated everyone else. I'm a ~bit hesitant about my Axelrod clear because that's basically just a bit of set up gaming, his behavior is solidly null I just don't think Fulcrum and I are the only town investigative power... but right now I'm in, like, KCC/You/Rhand/+1 worlds I think. +1 has to be Last or Axel, pretty much, could swap Rhand for Vaimes maybe pending Rhand's claim. It's the thing that makes the D1 wagons make the most sense with the claims and my other reads.
Oops, also @silver, could you clarify what you mean by fulcrum being town or "obliquely pocketing" you?
Kind of hard to explain but she's doing a good job of making me think she's town without directly talking to me and convincing me of it, if that makes sense? And her role is a thing I believe and something I don't think she made up
Silver, if your reasons for Rhand and Last are the same as last time I asked, then sorry, disregard that question...
But Rhand has done a bit more since then, and I’m interested in hearing any of your thoughts on the recent Last/KCC scuffle, too.
You're good, thread is big and it's been a while with the holidays and stuff lol.
Rhand has written more words but none of them really move the needle for me. I'm still digesting the KCC/Last stuff but I'm not sure it's theater, which... I guess probably makes Axelrod or fulcrum the +1, or one of the town duos is lying (Asta/Dkings or Vezok/Grape). If I had to pick I'd say Asta could be a wolf doublevoter who made up the mod message for dkingsland's protect for cred.
7. Rhand - Probably scum. His reads and his play have been very cautious. To me he seemed like he built justification for reads after deciding on them
I don’t do that as either alignment.
About being cautious: I can’t find anything to bite into this game. When I get convinced someone is scum, my teeth will come out.
I’m going to reread Vaimes and see if I can convince you to lynch him without having to claim my role.
I would really appreciate some meta input on Keldeo.
And toMorrow we should probably massclaim. Until that, I don’t think we should try to evaluate the roleblocking stuff. I have the feeling that that + 1 bodyguard is all we have against the night kill, and since it’s all seasonal, that is not an extreme amount.
I'm not going to push for a massclaim toDay but this doesn't really make me want to lunch Vaimes, obviously. Lol.
I've read two of Keldeo's games (one of each alignment) and have a hard time distinguishing between them, for whatever that's worth.
I *AM* protecting you, but there is definitely nothing in my role PM about mod confirmation of my ability. I just double-checked to make sure I didn't miss it. Is this a specific Oberon/Titania interaction? Can you provide some more clarify on what you were told?
So, per the rules of the game, I'm gonna paraphrase the message because direct quoting/screenshotting is a modkillable offense!
A Fairy showed up and told me Queen Titania is going to protect me and I shouldn't fear death.
Okay I *love* Keldeo's posts tbh-- accumulating all the reads to figure out the best potential wagons is good. He didn't try to defend his possible wagon. I dunno, I just dig it.
Gonna go with Rhand honestly because he's throwing weird suspicion at Killjoy and Last. Been kind of a weird vibe feeling and Keldeo's post feels good to me right now.
Don’t do that. I want to claim toMorrow, not toDay :/
How am I throwing weird suspicion at KJ and Last? They’re my bottom tier town reads and if I’m right about Vaimes being neutral, there has to be scum in my town reads. Or in the masons / you+DK.
Don’t do that. I want to claim toMorrow, not toDay :/
How am I throwing weird suspicion at KJ and Last? They’re my bottom tier town reads and if I’m right about Vaimes being neutral, there has to be scum in my town reads. Or in the masons / you+DK.
I literally can't get over how anyone decides to save their thought process specifically to convince town later as town. Why wasn't that level of thought and effort put into his actual target?
Not Voting(4) - dkingsland967, Grapefruit21, Axelrod, KittyCupCake
Rhand, I know we can't force you to if you don't want to or anything, and this is kind of selfish because I'm curious what you can do and why you're so convinced Vaimes can't be town with you, but I think you should claim so that we have all the information in the Vaimes/you situation.
fulcrum - do you think the behavior and claim-related reasons you cited about Vaimes being town are more like "town Vaimes" or "not mafia-with-a-team (i.e. town, or possibly neutral) Vaimes"? I know there's no real reason to speculate on the existence of a third party, but your posts about it laid out the distinction as more of a dichotomy. Same question to Proph, I guess.
I feel like Proph's orb ***** is super testble. Can't he give one of the orbs that causes to targetter reveal their ability name when they hit another orb to someone Today, and then have that person target Vezok to confirm both their's and proph's ability.
Also, if Axel us scum, Silver is probably with him. He was the main diffuser of the Axel wagon, iirc.
If KCC is scum, she probably targetted Proph last Night because scum feel pretty secure and they were worried about an arson thing or strong town ability from the orbs. Proph and KCC probably aren't scum together, would be a waste of the roleblock, unless they blocked exactly Tom.
I feel like everyone who should be pushing scum rn is just lamenting about a lack of strong reads instead, and there has to be scum satisfied with the gamestate in there, using the thread feeling as an excuse to do nothing.
I said I didn't think your CC made you two a dichotomy because between the three of us we make ~approximately one full investigative role, dunno if I was "the main diffuser of the Axel wagon" though
Which I stand by, if you and I are the only town investigatives I'll eat a hat
Not Voting(4) - dkingsland967, Grapefruit21, Axelrod, KittyCupCake
Rhand, I know we can't force you to if you don't want to or anything, and this is kind of selfish because I'm curious what you can do and why you're so convinced Vaimes can't be town with you, but I think you should claim so that we have all the information in the Vaimes/you situation.
fulcrum - do you think the behavior and claim-related reasons you cited about Vaimes being town are more like "town Vaimes" or "not mafia-with-a-team (i.e. town, or possibly neutral) Vaimes"? I know there's no real reason to speculate on the existence of a third party, but your posts about it laid out the distinction as more of a dichotomy. Same question to Proph, I guess.
Haven't really thought about the third party angle, I guess that could throw me. I think his behavior, specifically him really wanting to confirm himself, is a town thing not a not-scum thing.
I feel like Proph's orb ***** is super testble. Can't he give one of the orbs that causes to targetter reveal their ability name when they hit another orb to someone Today, and then have that person target Vezok to confirm both their's and proph's ability.
Yeah, I agree it's pretty testable. I think Vezok has the wrong color of orb for that, though - maybe Asta would be a better target since he's supposedly unable to die. Do you think if Proph's telling the truth about what the orbs do, he's town?
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Proph, how did you attempt to give an orange orb? It was spring overnight.
But, especially with silver priming the "color of spring" thing, I don't get... why he would lie about which colors of orbs he can give out when?
I have more thoughts but I want Proph to explain first.
Vaimes, what’s your take on this now that Axel has said he wrote it with the intent to possibly post itt? Was there more behind this read?
@Keldeo: Proph already clarified he meant Green orb.
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But Rhand has done a bit more since then, and I’m interested in hearing any of your thoughts on the recent Last/KCC scuffle, too.
If it’s the former - working off a sample size of 1.5 here but it might be possible all of Wisp’s abilities affect the lynch somehow?
why don’t you think Last/KCC are aligned? I get the not w/w part I think, but why don’t you think this could be v/v?
Vaimes, if I should take this as you not having more feelings about Axel after what he said, then you don’t need to answer my previous question either >_>”
Don’t /really/ think KCC/Proph and to a lesser extent fulcrum/Proph are wolves based on the former’s approach to the latter toDay. Read might be based on silly things.
Rhand, if you don’t think I have taken hard stances so far this game, I don’t know if I will take what you see as hard stances, ever. Being super confident is just not how my mind/style work.
My thinking that the masons are legit is strengthened because tonight I felt like grape isn’t pushing an agenda or posting like he knows people’s alignments. This weighs more heavily to me than claimed masons disagreeing or not being up-to-date on each other’s views, I think that’s realistic given what they’ve shown in thread.
Without further clarification from Asta, my only thought about the situation between him and dk is that they’re probably not partners either, with dk going against Asta’s claimed alert thing like this? Which probably means they’re v/v, or less likely, if one is w it’s dk. There’s the argument that Asta accidentally TMIed dk’s action going through because he knew dk was town, and had to make up an excuse for it somehow, but I don’t think Asta would just randomly make up mod confirmation as mafia. Also, Wisp, I think Asta is townier because he’s the counter to an ~anti town mechanic.
I have thoughts about KCC/Wisp as well, but I don’t trust my ability to express them intelligently right now, haha... some of Wisp’s emotion reads strangely to me in the exchange, but I just don’t really think he is a wolf, is what it boils down to.
That's fine, just tell me who to avoid
We definitely talked about this already. Just because I'm scumreading you two independently doesn't mean I think you're scum together.
I care.
I think you're probably scum mechanically, but I also want more than that. And your explanations for things have all lined up and do make sense if you're telling the truth
If all of the abilities are dramatically game altering, I think Tranquility is probably just that, a Day of peace, with no effect. That makes the most sense to me. Which, if he's scum, would have to mean either
1) He is actually completely in the dark about what the abilities do, but that seems kinda weird on scum or
2) He does know more or all of the effect, but needs to pick one every Night, and just wanted to get that blank one out of the way first. But I don't think that really makes sense as scum play either or
3) He actually didn't get a N0 ability and false claimed it knowing his future abilities would alter the Title, or similarly, a Tranquility ability was actually chosen automatically N0, because breaking D1 is probably bad game design?
The more I'm thinking about it... We could have had D1 96 hour kingmaker? Or D1 unanimous lynch? And we just all got lucky he picked an ability that didn't do anything, at least not anything noticable?
Proph - when you were answering my question about TRing Vaimes, you quoted one post he made about him feeling drained, which you’d already pointed out when discussing the read at first. Are there others you could point to?
No idea. I'm not putting energy into team building unflipped players. Especially when I'm not convinced he's scum to start with. Like, despite all the mechanical issues, I'm caught up on why a scumProph would ever target Axel. He confirms my ability? He let's me effectively choose the target? What could the orb possibly do where that makes sense from scum?
No. I was happy when she voted Nacho with me. She seems to be the only one to understand me this game. She’s 100% different from the Watchmen wanted micro.
I have mechanical reasons for my Vaimes read, and I think your town case on him is confirmation bias.
I don’t do that as either alignment.
About being cautious: I can’t find anything to bite into this game. When I get convinced someone is scum, my teeth will come out.
I’m going to reread Vaimes and see if I can convince you to lynch him without having to claim my role.
I would really appreciate some meta input on Keldeo.
And toMorrow we should probably massclaim. Until that, I don’t think we should try to evaluate the roleblocking stuff. I have the feeling that that + 1 bodyguard is all we have against the night kill, and since it’s all seasonal, that is not an extreme amount.
Our roles are too similar to both be in town, but I think he's not mafia either and this is a crumb:
Paired with this:
I think we have to lynch him at some point.
Although a mafia lynch is always better than a neutral lynch.
vote Keldeo because from my POE he's the strongest read.
My game state view right now is:
Neutral: Vaimes
mafia: Keldeo, Axel, ?? (? = Proph/Silver/KJ/Last)
town: everyone else
On the other hand, this game appears designed specifically to mess with my ability to game the set-up, so, congrats DV. Maybe if I was in my right mind right now.
I think Keledo's recent posting is pretty strong and engaged and I'm not interested in looking at him right now. I want to see if I can get anywhere with Rhand. I know there were at least one or two flags for me at some point. We'll see.
Rhand, I am town. Totally not a neutral.
Keldeo, I think it’s a little weird he wrote that with the intention of posting it. Probably less scummy for admitting it, but the way he kinda tried to pass it off as a natural thing feels much different from a post he intended to share. Does that make sense?
I don’t believe you. If you’re not neutral, you’re mafia.
Not that you’re going to admit that, but I’m sure.
@vaimes
Vaimes' sometimes I feel like you are fine, and other times you are just playing 3rd party to the thread
@kcc
So you are taking the "why would scum ever do that approach" in regards to Proph? Also in regards to you statements on me and fulcrum, you have yet to say anything that I recall on fulcrum, but solely focused on me. What do you think of Rhand putting you as a town lean because of meta based on the fact he doesn't think you are being manipulative
I've been thinking about that, but I'm going to wait until toMorrow.
What are you talking about with the bolded? Did I miss something?
The first one to mention the neutral often is the neutral
the first person to mention neutral's is usually the neutral or a wolf? or maybe bad town? but Vaimes isnt really bad town player?
He says he has an X-shot Day ability to give an orb of any color, and that each Night he can give an orb whose color depends on the season
So on D1 shadow gives Vezok a blue orb (I believe this happened before Vezok claimed?)
So the thing is that he could have just spammed green orbs everywhere and roleblocked a bunch of people
The thing that makes me hrm about the role being wolfy is that it's so loud it seems.... bad on a wolf lol
I think the likelihood is high given how many abilities give out ability names that the wolves aren't fakeclaiming (or at least mostly aren't), which means that they're claiming their real roles or haven't claimed yet
And that brings me to why I think KCC and Proph are a dichotomy; they're both manipulative multi-use roles and KCC's role is a lot more useful for a wolf. Tom's role isn't "merely" a Fall jailkeeper, he also had a Spring Lightning Rod ability and a Winter ability to partially vanillaize, and I'm having a hard time believing all of this manipulation power is town given how weak the investigative abilities are
Responding to this, nothing we have claimed did very much during Spring so why wouldn't they have wanted to roleblock Proph, who is giving out mysterious items with unknown powers?
It’s what he said about “there's some things about the items I can't say”. He talked about it in more explicit terms earlier, I’ll see if I can find the posts later because this is from memory.
It’s weird because if he’s telling the truth, I don’t understand what he shouldn’t be able to say from a game design perspective. But me not understanding something doesn’t mean it can’t exist, and obviously he’s not gonna tell us.
(Obviously we don’t know for sure that he hasn’t but Vezok got notification of the blue orb, so we can assume his day orb giving is also loud, right.)
I have a reservation in that I'm not sure town!shadow randomly gives a blue orb to Vezok when he isn't sure of her alignment, that's definitely a wolf shadow move to try to pocket her I think.
(I'm working on responding to your other stuff in another tab, didn't want you to think I'm ignoring you lol)
Vaimes - Neutral
Proph - Neutral
1 or 2 other neutrals
No scumteam
That's why this game is such an absolute PitA
Can you come up with any possible effect the orb could have, where he'd intentionally let me busdrive it, not caring if I hit town or scum? And also confirming my ability with it?
Like, what's the play there? An elaborate ploy to pocket me, while I'm teetering near mislynch? I'm just having trouble picturing any way it'd make sense
I've gone through the basics of my read. But no, I don't have more yet
If he's town, it's a good read, which I expect. He is the one person in this game who I'd bet can reliably read me, I lasted all of 2 seconds in Watchmen. He said I don't seem to be pushing an agenda here, which, yeah, my scumgame is to emulate the strongest parts of my town play, and I would not rank this among my more aggressive town games so far. On the other hand, if he's scum, he kinda has to make that read too though. I think he respects my town game enough to be wary of stirring up trouble with me under the best circumstances, but especially here when I'm the only one really townreading him.
I mean, I still think he's town, but this particular thing probably isn't AI at all.
Kind of hard to explain but she's doing a good job of making me think she's town without directly talking to me and convincing me of it, if that makes sense? And her role is a thing I believe and something I don't think she made up
You're good, thread is big and it's been a while with the holidays and stuff lol.
Rhand has written more words but none of them really move the needle for me. I'm still digesting the KCC/Last stuff but I'm not sure it's theater, which... I guess probably makes Axelrod or fulcrum the +1, or one of the town duos is lying (Asta/Dkings or Vezok/Grape). If I had to pick I'd say Asta could be a wolf doublevoter who made up the mod message for dkingsland's protect for cred.
I'm not going to push for a massclaim toDay but this doesn't really make me want to lunch Vaimes, obviously. Lol.
I've read two of Keldeo's games (one of each alignment) and have a hard time distinguishing between them, for whatever that's worth.
So, per the rules of the game, I'm gonna paraphrase the message because direct quoting/screenshotting is a modkillable offense!
A Fairy showed up and told me Queen Titania is going to protect me and I shouldn't fear death.
Okay I *love* Keldeo's posts tbh-- accumulating all the reads to figure out the best potential wagons is good. He didn't try to defend his possible wagon. I dunno, I just dig it.
Gonna go with Rhand honestly because he's throwing weird suspicion at Killjoy and Last. Been kind of a weird vibe feeling and Keldeo's post feels good to me right now.
Unvote Keldeo
Unvote Keldeo
Vote Rhand
Vote Rhand
How am I throwing weird suspicion at KJ and Last? They’re my bottom tier town reads and if I’m right about Vaimes being neutral, there has to be scum in my town reads. Or in the masons / you+DK.
Kj is town. Pretty sure Last is too.
Vote: Axelrod
I literally can't get over how anyone decides to save their thought process specifically to convince town later as town. Why wasn't that level of thought and effort put into his actual target?
Rhand, if you're town, kill Axel with me.
Rhand (6) - Vezokpiraka, Silvercrys, Prophylaxis, Killjoy, Asta, Asta
Prophylaxis (2) - Keldeo, lastwhisper
Axelrod (2) - Vaimes, fulcrum
Keldeo (1) – Rhand
Not Voting(4) - dkingsland967, Grapefruit21, Axelrod, KittyCupCake
Rhand, I know we can't force you to if you don't want to or anything, and this is kind of selfish because I'm curious what you can do and why you're so convinced Vaimes can't be town with you, but I think you should claim so that we have all the information in the Vaimes/you situation.
fulcrum - do you think the behavior and claim-related reasons you cited about Vaimes being town are more like "town Vaimes" or "not mafia-with-a-team (i.e. town, or possibly neutral) Vaimes"? I know there's no real reason to speculate on the existence of a third party, but your posts about it laid out the distinction as more of a dichotomy. Same question to Proph, I guess.
Also, if Axel us scum, Silver is probably with him. He was the main diffuser of the Axel wagon, iirc.
Which I stand by, if you and I are the only town investigatives I'll eat a hat
Haven't really thought about the third party angle, I guess that could throw me. I think his behavior, specifically him really wanting to confirm himself, is a town thing not a not-scum thing.
Yeah, I agree it's pretty testable. I think Vezok has the wrong color of orb for that, though - maybe Asta would be a better target since he's supposedly unable to die. Do you think if Proph's telling the truth about what the orbs do, he's town?