Side note: it's funny you brought up Iso, because I have a similar instance in a game years ago when he CC'ed me when we were both town (Drury Lane Mafia, if you want to take a trip in the way back machine).
I was pretty suspicious of fuwa in Modern, for also having a neighbor ability. It took some convincing for me to back down from pushing that CC.
I think I'll finally give Gemma her read list before the hammer
I mean, if this is an instance of "two seasonal roles and each has a roleblock but other abilities are different" then I'm not actually convinced it *is* much different from the Arkham thing. Especially if the roleblocks happen in different seasons, as an example of something I think Nacho might counter claim but that I could see being on two town roles.
Would also like to hear this shadow/Jack slot read, clearing that slot somehow would be ace.
I understand where Axelrod is coming from with his vote on Kitty, but the rumors of him killing RVS with that vote is greatly exaggerated and don't like how that's being leveraged to criticize Gemma for a late RVS vote.
I don't understand why someone softs that they have a "scummy" role - like, is it pro-scum (like PGO) where you need to out it to mitigate damage or is it just going to be a *****ty claim when you're at L-2? If it's the former, why not claim? If it's the latter, why hint at something like that at all instead of trying to draw a kill first? I don't think the half claim is doing anyone good here and since scum already knows you're nothing to be afraid of, why not full claim and give the town a little something more to work with?
IMO I think that KCC being transparent about it is very towny, as there was no need for it, and it puts all eyes on her for no reason, and its the opposite of what wolves want to do
I understand where Axelrod is coming from with his vote on Kitty, but the rumors of him killing RVS with that vote is greatly exaggerated and don't like how that's being leveraged to criticize Gemma for a late RVS vote.
I don't understand why someone softs that they have a "scummy" role - like, is it pro-scum (like PGO) where you need to out it to mitigate damage or is it just going to be a *****ty claim when you're at L-2? If it's the former, why not claim? If it's the latter, why hint at something like that at all instead of trying to draw a kill first? I don't think the half claim is doing anyone good here and since scum already knows you're nothing to be afraid of, why not full claim and give the town a little something more to work with?
also I think this was a lot of words and speculation/hedging that just wasn't needed, and it feels +wolfy
IMO I think that KCC being transparent about it is very towny, as there was no need for it, and it puts all eyes on her for no reason, and its the opposite of what wolves want to do
I disagree and think that the "no reason for it" line in particular is dangerous. The reason scum claim things along these lines is to trade some early heat to leave themselves wiggling room down the road. Now, not necessarily what I think is happening here, but.
I don’t care about the role soft. I think it’s better to acknowledge it and move on. We can spin our wheels all day about whether it’s scum wanting a buffer or town pouring wine.
Oh okay, I see. You were talking about two different things in the post where you quoted my response about Asta's post.
I didn't talk about KCC's claim when Axel said something about it because I don't think we can really read into it. It seemed like a thing to notice, so I quoted it after she posted it (I go back to my own iso when rereading sometimes) but I agree, it isn't really AI.
Why do you think she should claim if you don't think the claim makes her wolfy?
Also I'm a bit miffed that you think I was patting Axelrod on the back for pushing KCC -- I never actually said anything about the push he made, just said him breaking RVS makes me feel good about him. The actual act of breaking RVS with a push usually comes from town trying to do things, a lot of wolves here would coast on RVS as long as possible.
One more thing before I leave: Nacho taking KCC’s role soft as gospel and freaking out over it reads as TMI. He knows she’s town, and therefore is assuming she’s telling the truth. Even though she could totally be bluffing for reactions or something.
I like silver so far. I like Vaimes so far even if he should feel sort of silly right now.
I would like to see Kitty explain why she softclaimed the way she did, and, if she feels her claim is going to cause trouble down the road, then let us deal with it now as opposed to later. Saying that her claim is super scummy doesn't do anything for anyone.
Nacho you're a whirlwind and a delight as always. Am finding it hard to understand your stance on KCC, could you explain the reasoning there from the top? How does it benefit town for her to claim iyo?
My vote on Axelrod wasn't rvs. Didn't really think of that as him breaking out of rvs I guess. Just thought his vote / attitude toward it kinda sucked.
I'd like for KCC to attempt at explaining why she claimed the way she did and why her doing so is better than outright claiming. I'll write out my full thoughts once she's done that.
I mean I could've, but its still page two, so
Sorry to fail your expectations
didn't care much for the first paragraph, the thoughts don't push me in either direction
Breadcrumbs are meh, either alignment can do it, she didn't have to mention it, but she did, and I like the transparency
I'd like for KCC to attempt at explaining why she claimed the way she did and why her doing so is better than outright claiming. I'll write out my full thoughts once she's done that.
I think her doing that is a super terrible idea that gives mafia more info to read into and tells us next to nothing about her alignment in any way that I can imagine.
vote slothful -too lazy to come up with a reason right now though
Also, heads up for whenever I claim, my role is super scummy.
Vote: KCC
Might as well get it over with.
I spy with my little eye
A girlie I can get 'cause she don't get too many likes
A curly-headed cutie I can turn into my wife
Wait, that means foreverever, hold up, never mind
IMO I think that KCC being transparent about it is very towny, as there was no need for it, and it puts all eyes on her for no reason, and its the opposite of what wolves want to do
You know, and it's silly as hell, but that's the towniest Lastwhisper entrance I've seen in a while
You didn't just not RVS me back, you didn't RVS at all?
Mrgle. Axelrod killing RVS early is probably NAI but it gives me warm, fuzzy feelings anyway.
@Gemma is that a late RVS vote or...?
Unless I’m missing something, this is the only post that even mentions Gemma potentially making a late RVS vote.
Well, she naked voted me - which could be RVS except she had been joking before so the naked vote coming at that time looked not RVS, but then she immediately posted a second post with a joke in it so it looked like maybe it actually was RVS? I mean, there was some confusion there.
I would like to see Kitty explain why she softclaimed the way she did, and, if she feels her claim is going to cause trouble down the road, then let us deal with it now as opposed to later. Saying that her claim is super scummy doesn't do anything for anyone.
I'm not demanding she claim, but I am agreeing that her saying that in that way doesn't do anything good for us.
I'd like for KCC to attempt at explaining why she claimed the way she did and why her doing so is better than outright claiming. I'll write out my full thoughts once she's done that.
I think her doing that is a super terrible idea that gives mafia more info to read into and tells us next to nothing about her alignment in any way that I can imagine.
You mean "her doing what Nacho just suggested she do" - which is explain why she softed the way she softed - and not "her making that claim in the first place" - which is what I though you meant originally. Because I would also like to hear her thinking about why she felt the need to announce that her claim was going to be scummy at whatever point she makes it.
I don't think that's especially good Town-play. Doesn't make her scum, but I also think KCC is a good player in general. So....
I think that was a joke vote.
@Axel: was that a serious vote?
It was serious in the sense that it was the most suspect thing anyone had posted so far. But it was not super serious. I rank it about a 3 out of 10 in terms of actual scumminess. I didn't think it was going to kill anyone's RVS time.
I don't think the half claim is doing anyone good here and since scum already knows you're nothing to be afraid of
I said it was scummy, not weak
I understand why nachos getting votes here, but I think this is more likely cautious town rather than role fishing
I will note that none of this is an explanation for why you felt the need to soft-claim like that. Unless the "I know what I'm doing" is supposed to be the answer to that.
Addendum: he did the defending before we had any scumflips in both games.
I don't think that's the point? Like, it doesn't matter when the defending happened, it's just that we can't look for those interactions here when we don't have dead scum
Obviously looks good for Nacho. Sloth had a tongue-in-cheek thing that is probably unaligned. Looks somewhat good for Axel(push on KCC), Gemma(trashed KCC claim, supported Nacho), Killjoy(defended Axel's vote on KCC) and maybe Silver(supported Axel, pushed Nacho for details on KCC), in that order. Eh for Last(defended KCC, probably? too strongly for a partner). Somewhat bad for Vaimes and Tom(going after Nacho/Axel respectively, worse for Tom).
Just trust me on this for a bit. All I know is that I don't want to tell everyone today. My mason buddy knows and agrees that the slot is extremely likely town. It's not just me here.
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I mean, if this is an instance of "two seasonal roles and each has a roleblock but other abilities are different" then I'm not actually convinced it *is* much different from the Arkham thing. Especially if the roleblocks happen in different seasons, as an example of something I think Nacho might counter claim but that I could see being on two town roles.
Would also like to hear this shadow/Jack slot read, clearing that slot somehow would be ace.
might as well claim the seasons of your abilities KCC?
Well, despite my curiosity, and my immodest belief that I'm the best qualified to judge whether or not two roles could hypothetically co-exist in the same Town, Nacho is claiming virtual certainty, and sometimes you just go with that.
If it turns into a cluster****, then I guess we'll deal with it tomorrow. This is good enough for D1.
Vote: KCC
{L-2?)
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
She left out which seasons her abilities are usable in
Might as well get it out there if she's town in case flips aren't full flips
Well, the reason I asked was in the v/v world, however unlikely, doing so might give Nacho more information to possibly rescind. And she seems to be in the v/v world (which is a less than towny reaction to the CC, I think, but still.)
Welcome Proph! Most important recent event would be KittyCupCake being run up to claim range, and getting counterclaimed by Nacho. This is all in the last few pages.
She left out which seasons her abilities are usable in
Might as well get it out there if she's town in case flips aren't full flips
Well, the reason I asked was in the v/v world, however unlikely, doing so might give Nacho more information to possibly rescind. And she seems to be in the v/v world (which is a less than towny reaction to the CC, I think, but still.)
Welcome Proph! Most important recent event would be KittyCupCake being run up to claim range, and getting counterclaimed by Nacho. This is all in the last few pages.
Like, talking to Nacho without overt suspicion when this claim should probably have raised her hackles? + little stated concern about town basically setting itself up for 2 mislynches if he's v
Hi fulcrum and Silver, it'll be fun to play with y'all again
Also hi Keldeo, your mentor chat with Newcomb was the goat.
I'll see if I can skim the last few pages and get involved in real time soonish, but any full thread reread will have to wait a while until I'm done with finals.
Hi fulcrum and Silver, it'll be fun to play with y'all again
Also hi Keldeo, your mentor chat with Newcomb was the goat.
I'll see if I can skim the last few pages and get involved in real time soonish, but any full thread reread will have to wait a while until I'm done with finals.
She left out which seasons her abilities are usable in
Might as well get it out there if she's town in case flips aren't full flips
Excuse me, what.
What do you mean, what?
There's a chance we don't get full role flips and I'd like to see her role in full for set up gaming purposes post mass claim.
If she's town she should claim the seasons her abilities are usable in. If she's a wolf she probably won't either way.
You guys don't do full roleflips here? How much of a role flip is typical?
Role name + alignment is basically guaranteed in nonbastard games. Full flips are... I don't want to say they're standard but they're usually in place, just not guaranteed especially in a game with Masons. When I ran Dark and Stormy Night I wrote the role PMs in a way that prevented me from doing full flips because the mafia had a back up and redacting the role PM would have left that role with just name+alignment anyway, so I wrote the role names to be clear what the role was and just flipped alignment+role name.
This game I'd probably hazard has full flips just because Arkham had them, but I'd rather be safe than sorry
Giving Nacho a chance to retract the CC is also a thing I guess but this close to deadline with a bunch of players V/LA our options are pretty slim anyway
I mean, if this is an instance of "two seasonal roles and each has a roleblock but other abilities are different" then I'm not actually convinced it *is* much different from the Arkham thing. Especially if the roleblocks happen in different seasons, as an example of something I think Nacho might counter claim but that I could see being on two town roles.
I see your point here, but these two Nacho posts...
That's not really the same thing? Like it makes plenty of sense for there to be overlap on abilities that directly interact with the game's central mechanic. But that's not what this is. Side note: it's funny you brought up Iso, because I have a similar instance in a game years ago when he CC'ed me when we were both town (Drury Lane Mafia, if you want to take a trip in the way back machine).
Not to mention that KCC's claim is literally all disruption. In a town/town world where Nacho is claiming similar or identical roles, that creates a ton of potential for townies to **** over teammates and just feels wrong.
...make me think there must be a lot more overlap than just an RB shot.
Could you try to paraphrase the winter ability for us anyway?
Ugh.
Okay. I pick a player. That player isn't delayed, but when someone next targets them, that action isn't delayed either, but when that other someone uses another action, that action is the one delayed.
So, say I choose Player A on N1. Then, no one else targets A on N1, or on N2. But then on N3, player B targets A. That action hits A normally, but on N4, any action B makes is delayed to N5.
And mind you, this is my Winter Action, so... awesome
Like, talking to Nacho without overt suspicion when this claim should probably have raised her hackles? + little stated concern about town basically setting itself up for 2 mislynches if he's v
If nacho is scum, I have no idea what they're doing. I don't think that Gambit goes very far, and a 1 for 1 is way better than anything else my role gets.
In the more likely case he's town, yeah, I know what's going to happen, but... I don't know what you want me to do about it? No one is going to listen to me at this point, so
No one wants to make him actually claim now, so, have fun with that Tomorrow
Could you try to paraphrase the winter ability for us anyway?
Ugh.
Okay. I pick a player. That player isn't delayed, but when someone next targets them, that action isn't delayed either, but when that other someone uses another action, that action is the one delayed.
So, say I choose Player A on N1. Then, no one else targets A on N1, or on N2. But then on N3, player B targets A. That action hits A normally, but on N4, any action B makes is delayed to N5.
Well, that sounds like a complete mess. I really hope that isn't true.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
No one wants to make him actually claim now, so, have fun with that Tomorrow
You already know what you about to flip
Top down when I roll up the Vegas Strip
Hundred dollar chips, let's gamble ma
When the crowd get thick let's scramble ma KCC scum
This is a gentle reminder for those who have played with me and those who haven't that I have played this game for over a decade
My skepticism of the cc isn't about me doubting your experience or knowledge of how setups work, I just think that your cc is probably at least partially driven by how strong your scumread on KCC is, and think that setups on MTGS seem to intentionally try to **** with your head regardless of how good at setup spec you are (is kind of part of why I don't play here more often).
No one wants to make him actually claim now, so, have fun with that Tomorrow
It's more that we don't have time to get a lynch on anyone else at this point. What happens if he full claims is most likely: big discussion about the two roles and whether or not they can be the same alignment, everyone argues in circles with examples of how insane past games have been on this site, we end up shrugging and lynching you anyway, nothing changes except mafia have more information about how they want to handle Nacho over the night phase.
Grape/silver w/v
Rhand/kj v/v or w/w
Axel/dkings not w/w
* = Get your gun, baby, and we'll find out what that noise is
Stand up on the coffin and the box to put your toys in
That's the 1 in 2 chance you picked the poison
The most you'll ever be to your heroes is annoying
It's more that we don't have time to get a lynch on anyone else at this point. What happens if he full claims is most likely: big discussion about the two roles and whether or not they can be the same alignment, everyone argues in circles with examples of how insane past games have been on this site, we end up shrugging and lynching you anyway, nothing changes except mafia have more information about how they want to handle Nacho over the night phase.
Yeah, I get it, I'd probably be against it too from the outside. But, like, I know what's about to happen here -though I don't know what anyone expects me to do about it beyond shrug and laugh
Anyway, here you go, roughly in order of my confidence:
kj: This 100% looks like his town game, and I could read him even before he worked on his town play. If you're somehow scum kj, I'm super impressed, and I won't even care about winning, I'll just be cheering you on from spec
vez: The claim, and how she claimed, are very likely town. Though, this looks like it may be one of those kind of games, so, just don't get too complacent here
axel: The progression on me is so so strange if scum, so... probably town
rhand: His posts have felt... weird. I think that is just a reactionary adjustment to his town play, after so many D1 mislynches and a realization in Watchmen, but I still wanted to keep a close eye here.
nacho:
dk: Still believe his push was the most likely scum on my wagon. I think of him as being precise and calculating as town. which his play has felt like here, except the way he's connected some of his dots feels questionable, which is not something I expect from dk.
vaimes: Vaimes has felt tonally different from my experiences with townVaimes. He did say early that his play would be disconnected here, so it might not be AI. And after seeing his recent explanation for how he interacted with my early-game claiming discussion, and that he was actually trying to reach out and maybe work with me there... I guess townlean
gemma: I can... imagine some possible town motives for her play, but... her interactions with me, and her approach to my wagon, and her interactions with nacho regarding my wagon, they all fit just a little too well into a scum agenda. -After I flip, I hope everyone carefully scrutinizes her in those sections, before just giving her a free pass anyway. And nacho, try not getting too cozy in this pocket
Asta: Completely feels like new town. If scum, it's an incredible performance for someone inexperienced, regardless of how much potential daychat coaching may be going on
grape: I really like grape here. Plus, I still think he kinda town slipped. But... rhand thinks hes scum, and rhand is probably town, and rhand is usually right, so... idk
LW: Has felt fine, I guess. Not sure I know how to read him
silver: Has also felt fine. At a minimum, he's been a bit of a voice of reason regarding my claim, though that could maybe be TMI there??
fulcrum: Nothing has jumped out at me. If she's scum, it's solid scum play, but I think that's to be expected? -No idea what I'd even be looking for here
Tom: I've agreed with most of his reads all game, but... a little hard to read into past that. It'd explain a little of why this game has felt so hard if he is scum, I guess
Keldeo: Ugh. I've really liked his posts since replacing in, but.... Mind. IDK?
Proph: Yaaay! I'm so excited I get to play with you!!!
-Oh.
Right.
Well then...
This slot might be mechanically cleared?? But... considering our 95% mechanical scumread is actually town, ummm, I guess, grains of salt all around, please?
KittyCupCake: It's a shame no one here is too familiar with her approach to playing scum, because this "softclaim an amazing role and plan to use it like a townie rather than for causing endless chaos" is, just, so hilariously outside her wolfrange. Ehhh... but a kinda maybe CC in a specialty. -I'm sure this will all be just fine, what could go wrong?
Anyway, here you go, roughly in order of my confidence:
kj: This 100% looks like his town game, and I could read him even before he worked on his town play. If you're somehow scum kj, I'm super impressed, and I won't even care about winning, I'll just be cheering you on from spec
vez: The claim, and how she claimed, are very likely town. Though, this looks like it may be one of those kind of games, so, just don't get too complacent here
axel: The progression on me is so so strange if scum, so... probably town
rhand: His posts have felt... weird. I think that is just a reactionary adjustment to his town play, after so many D1 mislynches and a realization in Watchmen, but I still wanted to keep a close eye here.
nacho:
dk: Still believe his push was the most likely scum on my wagon. I think of him as being precise and calculating as town. which his play has felt like here, except the way he's connected some of his dots feels questionable, which is not something I expect from dk.
vaimes: Vaimes has felt tonally different from my experiences with townVaimes. He did say early that his play would be disconnected here, so it might not be AI. And after seeing his recent explanation for how he interacted with my early-game claiming discussion, and that he was actually trying to reach out and maybe work with me there... I guess townlean
gemma: I can... imagine some possible town motives for her play, but... her interactions with me, and her approach to my wagon, and her interactions with nacho regarding my wagon, they all fit just a little too well into a scum agenda. -After I flip, I hope everyone carefully scrutinizes her in those sections, before just giving her a free pass anyway. And nacho, try not getting too cozy in this pocket
Asta: Completely feels like new town. If scum, it's an incredible performance for someone inexperienced, regardless of how much potential daychat coaching may be going on
grape: I really like grape here. Plus, I still think he kinda town slipped. But... rhand thinks hes scum, and rhand is probably town, and rhand is usually right, so... idk
LW: Has felt fine, I guess. Not sure I know how to read him
silver: Has also felt fine. At a minimum, he's been a bit of a voice of reason regarding my claim, though that could maybe be TMI there??
fulcrum: Nothing has jumped out at me. If she's scum, it's solid scum play, but I think that's to be expected? -No idea what I'd even be looking for here
Tom: I've agreed with most of his reads all game, but... a little hard to read into past that. It'd explain a little of why this game has felt so hard if he is scum, I guess
Keldeo: Ugh. I've really liked his posts since replacing in, but.... Mind. IDK?
Proph: Yaaay! I'm so excited I get to play with you!!!
-Oh.
Right.
Well then...
This slot might be mechanically cleared?? But... considering our 95% mechanical scumread is actually town, ummm, I guess, grains of salt all around, please?
KittyCupCake: It's a shame no one here is too familiar with her approach to playing scum, because this "softclaim an amazing role and plan to use it like a townie rather than for causing endless chaos" is, just, so hilariously outside her wolfrange. Ehhh... but a kinda maybe CC in a specialty. -I'm sure this will all be just fine, what could go wrong?
Well, you're making me doubt if this is right or not. So, if you're scum, good job there I guess.
If not, I guess we get the cluster**** tomorrow.
At least there will be stuff to look at.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ok so I think I've finished digesting all this.
I do not trust Nacho enough to follow him down this rabbit hole unquestioningly. I think he's town but this is centered on setupgaming which is an inexact science.
Nacho: Your tone portrays confidence, but I'll ask you right out: How sure are you that your role and hers cannot exist together in town? Stop and think about it thoroughly because you need to be sure here. If she's town then you're gonna be in some *****, and if you're town as well... well that's bad. I just want you to fully commit to this before Night.
I will also say that I did not like the glibness of KCC's reaction to the CC. Saying it's not a CC without really scumrreading Nacho is an odd reaction for town to have. So I'm willing to vote there, but I really want Nacho to come in and say things. I will not be tolerating "Well I guess I was wrong" Tomorrow.
I won't be sitting at a computer at any point before deadline, but I will be limitedly available on mobile. I will vote before deadline for sure, as late as two hours before deadline (my last break tomorrow) to maximize the time to discuss this.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
First, I guess, let's talk about Things That Are True
Regardless of KCC's alignment, the dk wagon (currently) looks clean as hell. That means there's at least one in [Rhand/fulcrum/Proph/Keldeo/Vaimes].
In KCC town worlds almost definitely two of those are wolves (because otherwise she has 3+ wolves voting for her and I'm townreading most of the wagon). But I don't even know what wolves are doing here. Probably nothing, not pushing things or rocking the boat, I think. Making easily explained votes on KCC after the counterclaim (cough, tom and last). Making votes they can justify and just letting the wagons happen since few of them are under real pressure (if Keldeo is town, big wagons have been all villagers lol).
In KCC wolf worlds, it looks like her partners would be scrambling for counterwagons as she slowly accumulated votes... but the thread didn't really feel that way, so.
Probably not all three of tom/Rhand/fulcrum there?
In KCC wolf worlds... Probably Grapefruit wagon is wolf driven, possibly Axel's as well, something like [Rhand or tom or fulcrum/last or Vaimes/+X].
If she's town, they probably just filled in where they could justify votes for the most part? Like, [rhand/dk/+X, maybe Last] kind of thing. They couldn't have been under much pressure unless Axelrod and DK are both wolves or something. If Nacho hadn't been one of the primary pushers of the dk wagon I might think he CC'd her to push her lunch through and save him but... yeah I dunno.
I was pretty suspicious of fuwa in Modern, for also having a neighbor ability. It took some convincing for me to back down from pushing that CC.
I think I'll finally give Gemma her read list before the hammer
Would also like to hear this shadow/Jack slot read, clearing that slot somehow would be ace.
With 17 Alive it takes 9 to Lynch
Like something happened that I'd prefer not to divulge, that makes me sure the slot is town. Mechanics related thing.
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Check out the Shop Thread
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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might as well claim the seasons of your abilities KCC?
KCC should just full claim now, yeah, this close to deadline at L-3 and been CC'd, no reason not to
Rumor has it you’re town.
KCC didn't claim the seasons her abilities are connected to. Which, honestly, if she were town, she would have done by now anyway.
Might as well get it out there if she's town in case flips aren't full flips
If someone could give me a cliff notes summary of what has happened so far then that'd be great.
Excuse me, what.
We'll find out once everyone's ready I suppose
I'd like to check the wagons to see what I think of wolf!KCC worlds but doing spreadsheets is hard on a phone lol
If it turns into a cluster****, then I guess we'll deal with it tomorrow. This is good enough for D1.
Vote: KCC
{L-2?)
There's a chance we don't get full role flips and I'd like to see her role in full for set up gaming purposes post mass claim.
If she's town she should claim the seasons her abilities are usable in. If she's a wolf she probably won't either way.
Welcome Proph! Most important recent event would be KittyCupCake being run up to claim range, and getting counterclaimed by Nacho. This is all in the last few pages.
You guys don't do full roleflips here? How much of a role flip is typical?
Also hi Keldeo, your mentor chat with Newcomb was the goat.
I'll see if I can skim the last few pages and get involved in real time soonish, but any full thread reread will have to wait a while until I'm done with finals.
@Mod: When is the deadline?
It's tomorrow, 4pm PST, so in 29 hours.
Okay I'll try to look at the last few pages and provide input a little later tonight then.
If KCC is CC'd then it should be a slam dunk, though.
Giving Nacho a chance to retract the CC is also a thing I guess but this close to deadline with a bunch of players V/LA our options are pretty slim anyway
It's not a CC, and I'm town, so no
Anyway, yeah, I can claim more:
Spring is RB, I had been thinking about hitting jack
Summer gives me a 2shot bus drive that I can use whenever/with other abilities
Fall is the delay
Winter is the other indirect delay. It's... complicated garbage, and a headache even trying to paraphrase
Readlist will be done tonight, please hold until then
I see your point here, but these two Nacho posts...
...make me think there must be a lot more overlap than just an RB shot.
Why Jack? I don’t think you have mentioned that slot before?
Ugh.
Okay. I pick a player. That player isn't delayed, but when someone next targets them, that action isn't delayed either, but when that other someone uses another action, that action is the one delayed.
So, say I choose Player A on N1. Then, no one else targets A on N1, or on N2. But then on N3, player B targets A. That action hits A normally, but on N4, any action B makes is delayed to N5.
And mind you, this is my Winter Action, so... awesome
If nacho is scum, I have no idea what they're doing. I don't think that Gambit goes very far, and a 1 for 1 is way better than anything else my role gets.
In the more likely case he's town, yeah, I know what's going to happen, but... I don't know what you want me to do about it? No one is going to listen to me at this point, so
No one wants to make him actually claim now, so, have fun with that Tomorrow
If town, there wouldn't be an action use to stop. If scum, other scum could still submit the ability in their absence.
So... best chance of doing something without causing a problem
Top down when I roll up the Vegas Strip
Hundred dollar chips, let's gamble ma
When the crowd get thick let's scramble ma
KCC scum
My skepticism of the cc isn't about me doubting your experience or knowledge of how setups work, I just think that your cc is probably at least partially driven by how strong your scumread on KCC is, and think that setups on MTGS seem to intentionally try to **** with your head regardless of how good at setup spec you are (is kind of part of why I don't play here more often).
It's more that we don't have time to get a lynch on anyone else at this point. What happens if he full claims is most likely: big discussion about the two roles and whether or not they can be the same alignment, everyone argues in circles with examples of how insane past games have been on this site, we end up shrugging and lynching you anyway, nothing changes except mafia have more information about how they want to handle Nacho over the night phase.
Gemma/silver/axel/dkings
proph/<kj+rhand>
asta/vaimes
keldeo/fulcrum*
kcc/grape
Grape/silver w/v
Rhand/kj v/v or w/w
Axel/dkings not w/w
Stand up on the coffin and the box to put your toys in
That's the 1 in 2 chance you picked the poison
The most you'll ever be to your heroes is annoying
Anyway, here you go, roughly in order of my confidence:
kj: This 100% looks like his town game, and I could read him even before he worked on his town play. If you're somehow scum kj, I'm super impressed, and I won't even care about winning, I'll just be cheering you on from spec
vez: The claim, and how she claimed, are very likely town. Though, this looks like it may be one of those kind of games, so, just don't get too complacent here
axel: The progression on me is so so strange if scum, so... probably town
rhand: His posts have felt... weird. I think that is just a reactionary adjustment to his town play, after so many D1 mislynches and a realization in Watchmen, but I still wanted to keep a close eye here.
nacho:
dk: Still believe his push was the most likely scum on my wagon. I think of him as being precise and calculating as town. which his play has felt like here, except the way he's connected some of his dots feels questionable, which is not something I expect from dk.
vaimes: Vaimes has felt tonally different from my experiences with townVaimes. He did say early that his play would be disconnected here, so it might not be AI. And after seeing his recent explanation for how he interacted with my early-game claiming discussion, and that he was actually trying to reach out and maybe work with me there... I guess townlean
gemma: I can... imagine some possible town motives for her play, but... her interactions with me, and her approach to my wagon, and her interactions with nacho regarding my wagon, they all fit just a little too well into a scum agenda. -After I flip, I hope everyone carefully scrutinizes her in those sections, before just giving her a free pass anyway. And nacho, try not getting too cozy in this pocket
Asta: Completely feels like new town. If scum, it's an incredible performance for someone inexperienced, regardless of how much potential daychat coaching may be going on
grape: I really like grape here. Plus, I still think he kinda town slipped. But... rhand thinks hes scum, and rhand is probably town, and rhand is usually right, so... idk
LW: Has felt fine, I guess. Not sure I know how to read him
silver: Has also felt fine. At a minimum, he's been a bit of a voice of reason regarding my claim, though that could maybe be TMI there??
fulcrum: Nothing has jumped out at me. If she's scum, it's solid scum play, but I think that's to be expected? -No idea what I'd even be looking for here
Tom: I've agreed with most of his reads all game, but... a little hard to read into past that. It'd explain a little of why this game has felt so hard if he is scum, I guess
Keldeo: Ugh. I've really liked his posts since replacing in, but.... Mind. IDK?
Proph: Yaaay! I'm so excited I get to play with you!!!
-Oh.
Right.
Well then...
This slot might be mechanically cleared?? But... considering our 95% mechanical scumread is actually town, ummm, I guess, grains of salt all around, please?
KittyCupCake: It's a shame no one here is too familiar with her approach to playing scum, because this "softclaim an amazing role and plan to use it like a townie rather than for causing endless chaos" is, just, so hilariously outside her wolfrange. Ehhh... but a kinda maybe CC in a specialty. -I'm sure this will all be just fine, what could go wrong?
With 17 Alive it takes 9 to Lynch
If not, I guess we get the cluster**** tomorrow.
At least there will be stuff to look at.
I do not trust Nacho enough to follow him down this rabbit hole unquestioningly. I think he's town but this is centered on setupgaming which is an inexact science.
Nacho: Your tone portrays confidence, but I'll ask you right out: How sure are you that your role and hers cannot exist together in town? Stop and think about it thoroughly because you need to be sure here. If she's town then you're gonna be in some *****, and if you're town as well... well that's bad. I just want you to fully commit to this before Night.
I will also say that I did not like the glibness of KCC's reaction to the CC. Saying it's not a CC without really scumrreading Nacho is an odd reaction for town to have. So I'm willing to vote there, but I really want Nacho to come in and say things. I will not be tolerating "Well I guess I was wrong" Tomorrow.
I won't be sitting at a computer at any point before deadline, but I will be limitedly available on mobile. I will vote before deadline for sure, as late as two hours before deadline (my last break tomorrow) to maximize the time to discuss this.
Why did it have to be setups?
I don't think that Kitty is scum anymore, I think I that my thought process was WILDLY ******* wrong.
I'm still at work but I'll at least try to explain my thought process when I get home???
What? What is going on this game?
Someone who knows Nacho: Is this a thing he normally does?
#1537 was the last vote before the Nacho CC
Axelrod (2): Vaimes (#979), Killjoy (#1525)
Grapefruit21 (2): Rhand (#1154), fulcrum (#1537)
dkingsland967 (3): Silvercrys3467 (#1313), Asta (#1359), Grapefruit21 (#1489)
KittyCupCake (7): dkingsland967 (#942), Nachomamma8 (#1396), Lastwhisper (#1546), tomsloger (#1553), Gemma (#1576), vezokpiraka (#1584), Axelrod (#1619)
Abstaining (2): Jackrito, Keldeo
Vaimes (1): Keldeo (#1201)
KittyCupCake (3): dkingsland967 (#942), Gemma (#1351), Nachomamma8 (#1396)
Axelrod (3): Vaimes (#979), Lastwhisper (#1521), Killjoy (#1525)
Grapefruit21 (3): tomsloger (#1142), Rhand (#1154), fulcrum (#1537)
dkingsland967 (3): Silvercrys3467 (#1313), Asta (#1359), Grapefruit21 (#1489)
Abstaining (3): Jackrito, Axelrod, vezokpiraka
tomsloger (1): Grapefruit21 (#1077)
Axelrod (2): Killjoy (#959), Vaimes (#979)
Grapefruit21 (2): tomsloger (#1142), Rhand (#1154)
KittyCupCake (3): dkingsland967 (#942), vezokpiraka (#1135), Gemma (#1351)
Vaimes (3): fulcrum (#895), Keldeo (#1201), Lastwhisper (#1279)
dkingsland967 (3): Nachomamma8 (#1270), Silvercrys3467 (#1313), Asta (#1359)
Abstaining (2): Jackrito, Axelrod
Killjoy (1): Rhand (#989)
tomsloger (1): Grapefruit21 (#1077)
Vaimes (2): fulcrum (#895), tomsloger (#900)
Axelrod (2): Killjoy (#959), Vaimes (#979)
KittyCupCake (5): Nachomamma8 (#833), Gemma (#882), dkingsland967 (#942), Asta (#1042), vezokpiraka (#1135)
Abstaining (5): Jackrito, Axelrod, Lastwhisper, Silvercrys3467, Keldeo
vezokpiraka (1): Keldeo (#280)
dkingsland967 (1): Asta (#425)
Axelrod (2): Killjoy (#959), Vaimes (#979)
Keldeo (3): vezokpiraka (#182), KittyCupCake (#862), Silvercrys3467 (#870)
KittyCupCake (3): Nachomamma8 (#833), Gemma (#882), dkingsland967 (#942)
Vaimes (3): fulcrum (#895), tomsloger (#900), Lastwhisper (#918)
Abstaining (3): Jackrito, Rhand, Axelrod
Rhand (1): Killjoy (#516)
dkingsland967 (1): Asta (#425)
Axelrod (1): Vaimes (#650)
KittyCupCake (1): Nachomamma8 (#833)
vezokpiraka (2): Keldeo (#280), dkingsland967 (#312)
Keldeo (6): vezokpiraka (#182), Axelrod (#710), Lastwhisper (#811), tomsloger (#827), KittyCupCake (#862), Silvercrys3467 (#870)
Abstaining (4): Jackrito, Gemma, Rhand, fulcrum
Axelrod (1): Vaimes (#650)
Grapefruit21 (1): fulcrum (#763)
Rhand (2): Silvercrys3467 (#143), Killjoy (#516)
Keldeo (2): vezokpiraka (#182), Axelrod (#710)
dkingsland967 (2): Nachomamma8 (#408), Asta (#425)
vezokpiraka (6): Keldeo (#280), dkingsland967 (#312), Rhand (#487), tomsloger (#806), KittyCupCake (#807), Lastwhisper (#809)
Abstaining (2): Jackrito, Gemma
Asta (1): Grapefruit21 (#44)
Rhand (3): Silvercrys3467 (#143), fulcrum (#499), Killjoy (#516)
Keldeo (3): vezokpiraka (#182), tomsloger (#545), Lastwhisper (#546)
vezokpiraka (3): Keldeo (#280), dkingsland967 (#312), Rhand (#487)
dkingsland967 (3): Nachomamma8 (#408), Vaimes (#412), Asta (#425)
Abstaining (3): KittyCupCake, Jackrito, Gemma
KittyCupCake (1): Axelrod (#34)
Asta (1): Grapefruit21 (#44)
Rhand (1): Silvercrys3467 (#143)
Keldeo (1): vezokpiraka (#182)
Axelrod (1): Rhand (#194)
fulcrum (1): tomsloger (#263)
vezokpiraka (3): Lastwhisper (#247), Keldeo (#280), dkingsland967 (#312)
dkingsland967 (4): Nachomamma8 (#408), Gemma (#410), Vaimes (#412), Asta (#425)
Abstaining (3): fulcrum, KittyCupCake, Killjoy
vezokpiraka
Killjoy
Gemma
Asta / Nachomamma8
Vaimes / Grapefruit21
fulcrum / KittyCupCake / Axelrod
Prophylaxis / Keldeo
tomsloger / Lastwhisper
Rhand
dkingsland967
Regardless of KCC's alignment, the dk wagon (currently) looks clean as hell. That means there's at least one in [Rhand/fulcrum/Proph/Keldeo/Vaimes].
In KCC town worlds almost definitely two of those are wolves (because otherwise she has 3+ wolves voting for her and I'm townreading most of the wagon). But I don't even know what wolves are doing here. Probably nothing, not pushing things or rocking the boat, I think. Making easily explained votes on KCC after the counterclaim (cough, tom and last). Making votes they can justify and just letting the wagons happen since few of them are under real pressure (if Keldeo is town, big wagons have been all villagers lol).
In KCC wolf worlds, it looks like her partners would be scrambling for counterwagons as she slowly accumulated votes... but the thread didn't really feel that way, so.
-------------
Applied to the #1537 vote count.
Vaimes (1): Keldeo (#1201)
KittyCupCake (3): dkingsland967 (#942), Gemma (#1351), Nachomamma8 (#1396)
Axelrod (3): Vaimes (#979), Lastwhisper (#1521), Killjoy (#1525)
Grapefruit21 (3): tomsloger (#1142), Rhand (#1154), fulcrum (#1537)
dkingsland967 (3): Silvercrys3467 (#1313), Asta (#1359), Grapefruit21 (#1489)
Abstaining (3): Jackrito, Axelrod, vezokpiraka
Probably not all three of tom/Rhand/fulcrum there?
In KCC wolf worlds... Probably Grapefruit wagon is wolf driven, possibly Axel's as well, something like [Rhand or tom or fulcrum/last or Vaimes/+X].
If she's town, they probably just filled in where they could justify votes for the most part? Like, [rhand/dk/+X, maybe Last] kind of thing. They couldn't have been under much pressure unless Axelrod and DK are both wolves or something. If Nacho hadn't been one of the primary pushers of the dk wagon I might think he CC'd her to push her lunch through and save him but... yeah I dunno.
Preview edit: lmao