I understand where Axelrod is coming from with his vote on Kitty, but the rumors of him killing RVS with that vote is greatly exaggerated and don't like how that's being leveraged to criticize Gemma for a late RVS vote.
I don't understand why someone softs that they have a "scummy" role - like, is it pro-scum (like PGO) where you need to out it to mitigate damage or is it just going to be a *****ty claim when you're at L-2? If it's the former, why not claim? If it's the latter, why hint at something like that at all instead of trying to draw a kill first? I don't think the half claim is doing anyone good here and since scum already knows you're nothing to be afraid of, why not full claim and give the town a little something more to work with?
Like look at this post. I had to go back to check who accused axelrod of killing RVS and it's just silver. Nobody even commented on that thing, so I have no idea where "greatly exaggerated comes from.
And the second part feels like total rolefishing. If you want to see the claim just vote, don't stand on the sidelines and sling mud.
Tom putting up a gimmick is totally NAI.
He’s very comprehensible in this one, which for me is a big relief. He’s had gimmicks where I couldn’t understand what he meant. His thoughts are clear here.
You do have experience playing with tom and his gimmicks, right?
vote Axelrod
Uh, definitely not recently. Maybe never? It is possible I read a game once where he faked a gimmick? I can't remember.
Still don't like it. Maybe it is NAI for him, but he oughtn't do it as Town. It helps no one. I don't care if he thinks it's fun.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@KCC what do you think of Nacho's push on me, if you don't think he was rolefishing?
Well, I don't see how these things are related. But, I liked him poking your Axel comment.
They're related because Nacho's push appeared to be at least partly based on the fact that I didn't weigh in on your soft. If he's not rolefishing then... I guess he really just expected me to have thoughts about your claim, I guess, but it partly felt like he wanted me to weigh in on it and try to put pressure on you because he thought I was agreeing with Axel or something. My thoughts on this still aren't very coherent but this progression felt contradictory to me. It doesn't to you?
KCC, I’m saying I don’t need those interactions to find Last scummy for them. They strengthen or weaken upon flips, sure, but I’m not gonna wait until scum flips fall from the sky to make potential connections.
I also don’t think the “scum wouldn’t be openly scummy” read works for me. Seem too many well respected players absolutely flub it on Day 1. We can talk about it after a few more pages of content, maybe.
Alright I'm gonna give Asta another 24 hours before I drop my read there
Spoilers: it isn't a town read
Mindreaver is also not a town read but his self meta is both old and relatively accurate as far as I remember so I'm willing to give him a while longer
The only wolf game of his I remember is the one where his buddy Voxx orchestrated a wolf win by getting him to counterclaim his own buddy Rhand, if I recall that game correctly?
But he and I used to be pretty similar players and we clicked pretty well so...
Anyway.
@Rhand are you voting Axelrod because he's voting tom over the gimmick or is there more there?
Vezok was badmouthing Nacho without really doing anything that I can tell to try to figure out the alignment behind the posts, therefore, shading, not scumread.
Vezok uses she pronouns? Or are we just calling everyone she now for memes?
explain how these would look diso different so that you could tell which is which.
I feel like scum are a little more tactful and stealthy, rather than standing up and yelling for info
So your comment is for what scum in general would do, not Nacho-centric.
From a scum-standpoint, I completely disagree, and honestly, many scum play a brazen game. I certainly do when I role it, so I'm not sure what your basis was for this.
Add to that that your comments prior seemed to be specifically about Nacho, regardless of how you're painting them now...hm.
Possible early distancing...or waffling. Unsure as of yet.
(1) What about this is shading? The points, from a common sense standpoint, are objectively true and confirmable. Is there anything there you disagree with? If so, why?
(2) Vezok is actually not the first one to bring up those points. What makes him a shader and others not?
Game is in a weird place where the people who are posting I feel mostly okay about and the other people are... not posting. Or at least, they aren't posting often enough to give me that injection of Mafia straight into my veins.
@Gemma tell me about Lastwhisper, you've voted him a bunch and then moved elsewhere without actually talking about him that I can see.
I ~kind~ of want to townlean him with Axelrod so tell me why that's a bad idea
@Slothful Give me a scenario where a non-proactive town is worth keeping around.
In addition, "fear mongering" is an interesting term when the "probably not" quote is oddly ambivalent and sows doubt.
I mean they are town in this case? so are you arguing you should kill bad town? cause thats a yikes from me dog
and let's look at this quote
Quote from Vezok »
Firstly, don't fall in the pitfall that nacho can't make bad moves as scum. Even if she's a mastermind at mafia, derps can happen to anyone.
Maybe this is town paranioa, but it's definitely not needed, its just shade on Nacho. It reeks of an agenda or maybe even TMI in the world of Vezok/Nacho, and overall it's just very manipulative, like man, they are starting to town read Nacho here, so let me just slide in this shade so that they doubt themselves
@Rhand
I agree with the people attacking Tom's gimmick being wolfy, but that's also on an individual level, because I think the two other players that attack it, both Sloth, and Axel, don't look great. But I am town, so its probably NAI unless you look deeply at how they are attacking, remember context matters, and I personally dont think either of their frustrations feel real
Nacho re-evaluating me is good, I think? probably strengthens the W/W world that Vaimes has right now though
Mindreavers response on page 4 feels very appeally, his meta is very hard to analyze since it depends on consistency that maybe we will see in day 1 because its so long?
Mindreaver/Vezok/Axel/Sloth
something like that right now
(1) What about this is shading? The points, from a common sense standpoint, are objectively true and confirmable. Is there anything there you disagree with? If so, why?
(2) Vezok is actually not the first one to bring up those points. What makes him a shader and others not?
Remind me who the others are, I'm lazy. There's a difference between thinking Nacho is coming at things sideways and thinking that's scummy to saying that Nacho said something inaccurate / nonsensical and rolefished and is therefore scum. The latter may be grounded in fact, but the emphasis is on putting Nacho down, not on expressing a read, and I think that's a pretty disingenuous way to approach someone.
@Gemma tell me about Lastwhisper, you've voted him a bunch and then moved elsewhere without actually talking about him that I can see.
I ~kind~ of want to townlean him with Axelrod so tell me why that's a bad idea
I assume / hope that at some point Last will make a din of some kind, will go crazy about something with complete conviction, and when that happens I'll get a read on him. Until then, shrug. I was voting him in a show of support for Nacho, because Nacho is friend, and I like wagons.
Vaimes - you should stop voting me and instead vote LW with me. It's pretty rude to mislynch me on my first game on the site in over a year.
Manipulative.
Vezok: What is your experience with Gemma?
Von: Does lastwhisper tmi?
Gemma: Hey, love.
You all let tom get away with too much *****. Threatening him to get him to stop a gimmick doesn't work if you won't follow through. Lynch him a few times, and he'll learn.
Okay, I see a very redacted world where Nacho is town, but it's pretty lol.
I don't really understand how you got so deep into this tunnel?
Yes, I was wrong that Silver was scumreading Gemma - I didn't think he was aaking a legitimate question because I thought the answer was obvious. That was wrong, but don't really understand how you got from that to "any worlds where Nacho is town requires redacted information and that's LOL".
I also was nitpicky and overly aggressive in the early game and I can see people being weirded out by that if they didn't know what I was doing, but there's nothing scummy about either of those qualities in early game when people are trying to generate information.
Then there's my position on KCC's claim; claiming that I'm "freaking out as scum" because a townie held up a neon sign that said "LYNCH ME, I'M NOT CONFIRMABLE" is ridiculously dumb; if faced with a claim like that as scum, chances are I try to mislynch her eventually but I'm not so inexperienced to the point where I figure it's something I have to attempt immediately like you're currently implying.
Your push on me is frustrating because I don't think it's coming from scum but you're pushing me like you are scum - you're attacking small pieces of my play but ignoring my play as a whole, you're acting like I've messed up to the point where I'm either terrible or scum despite it being early as hell and despite me not doing anything close to that bad (I've been scattered and I've had points that were incorrect, but again, nothing that explains the "gosh I can't see any world where Nacho is town that isn't zany". If you're actually invested in reading me this game, take a step back and make an effort to see where I'm coming from.
You know, I'm sure I wrote a reply to Nacho, and yet it's not showing up.
Whatever.
Nacho, let the KCC thing drop. If they're scum, they locked themselves into a corner in their first post. The kind of scum who does that isn't hard to catch.
Having extremely mixed feelings about Nacho's push, on the one hand he started off trying to shade me in the most indirect way I've ever seen and hasn't voted me even though he's representing quite a bit of hostility + conviction
on the other he's going awfully hard for page 2 if he's a wolf trying to mislunch me
I feel the other hand part is resting a on lazy assumption, that wolf!nacho would be trying to mislynch him at that point of the game instead of just putting out activity to get townread. You saw it differently?
I agree that it's a lazy assumption, but I don't think he starts to pump the breaks at that exact moment if he's scum - seems easier and safer just to stay the course and OMGUS.
If he's scum, a townie attacked him early and then started getting railroaded by another townie. No one had backed off at that point and no one else was really in the conversation, so calling me town while I'm in the middle of attacking him is more likely to leave him vulnerable than it is to do anything for him. And it's possible he wasn't thinking that deeply, but I also think it's more natural for scum to lash out against those attacking them than it is to start attacking then back off while they're still getting heat.
I agree that it's a lazy assumption, but I don't think he starts to pump the breaks at that exact moment if he's scum - seems easier and safer just to stay the course and OMGUS.
If he's scum, a townie attacked him early and then started getting railroaded by another townie. No one had backed off at that point and no one else was really in the conversation, so calling me town while I'm in the middle of attacking him is more likely to leave him vulnerable than it is to do anything for him. And it's possible he wasn't thinking that deeply, but I also think it's more natural for scum to lash out against those attacking them than it is to start attacking then back off while they're still getting heat.
Does that make sense?
I mean, I get what you're saying, I just don't agree? I think Silver is the type of scum that leans towards townreading someone starting to push him, not shoving back. Where did he start attacking you, actually? My impression was that he was digging for answers, not pushing you.
@Silver
not a fan of the last comment in his #220
its relatively weak though
on another note, nacho/ful being w/w is unlikely after #222
Ehhhhh
Okay but I know for a fact that's an oog opinion, they've played together offsite and tom gets lunched way more often there than he does here because they don't put up with him as much as we do lol
Also the whole discussion is kind of not w/w but that post you pointed to specifically isn't I don't think
Someone remind me to revisit this if I forget, don't want to poison the well on the discussion Nacho and fonti are having
@slothful: I ignored your question cause it's irrelevant and self explanstory.
Gemma's attack on me is ???. I voted nacho because I think they are scum. I didn't have questions to ask to clarify what was said because my mind was already made. I voted hoping that other would be convinced and do the same.
I like fullcrums entry and don't like LW setting him as a scum read.
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vote slothful -too lazy to come up with a reason right now though
Also, heads up for whenever I claim, my role is super scummy.
The motivations that I can parse for this soft are a little iffy regardless of KCC's alignment; my initial thought was that she was a newer player making a bit of a misplay to the point where it might be possible to get her to claim early and lock her in as town; unconventional and maybe not the greatest play, but also somewhat influenced by the fact that I can't think of a role that's not pro-scum but also scummy, meaning that the chances of her being silly were decent and thus the potential of getting a confident town early outweighed the risk of outing something I shouldn't out early. I also hoped she was actually around so that I could see her reaction to being pressed to claim a bit (guessing she wouldn't expect a strong push early to get her to do so if scum), but that didn't happy and so I'm happy enough with her "I know what I'm doing, leave me alone" post.
It's not particularly relevant to my opinion of LW's alignment, but I'm sort of amused that they took time to explain that entering a game with "hi" is NAI.
Hey Asta, what's your mafia experience and does your homesite normally place random votes at the beginning of the game?
Why ask this question?
Because the answer might be enlightening? I can explain after she(?) answers, though I expect nothing will really come of it directly.
I thought that you were asking this question because Asta hadn't placed an RVS vote and you were trying to give them an out before pushing them for it. I don't think that voting alone advances the game and so I'm usually not hot and bothered when people don't vote as long as they're attempting to push the game forward in some way or another. Is my prediction wrong? Did you have a better reason for asking this question?
IMO I think that KCC being transparent about it is very towny, as there was no need for it, and it puts all eyes on her for no reason, and its the opposite of what wolves want to do
Axelrod's 139 implies that you've done something similar in the past as scum - have you? I also disagree with this read - I don't feel like claiming that she has a scummy role is "transparent" since that can mean a wide variety of things. I agree that she would expect to get some attention for it, but she's also not really putting anything significant out there and what can people attack her for here?
Oh okay, I see. You were talking about two different things in the post where you quoted my response about Asta's post.
I didn't talk about KCC's claim when Axel said something about it because I don't think we can really read into it. It seemed like a thing to notice, so I quoted it after she posted it (I go back to my own iso when rereading sometimes) but I agree, it isn't really AI.
Why do you think she should claim if you don't think the claim makes her wolfy?
I think that RVS is over when everyone has something that they can talk about without overextending to do so. So, when you said that Axel killed RVS, I figured you said as much because you thought he brought up something worth talking about it and then... didn't talk about it. Your later posts clarified that you said he killed RVS because he was making a serious attempt to scumhunt and not because of any opinions you held of his scumhunting in and of itself which is fine, just not the meaning I thought it had.
My thoughts on the claim are at the top of this post; let me know if I need to clarify anything.
I have a light town read on Silver's #65, #56. I liked hint of passion when correcting me on his take on Axel and makes it more likely that it's a position he actually has and I liked his observation on me treating him like an "unseen force" for reasons I don't entirely understand.
“but the rumors of [Axel] killing RVS with that vote is greatly exaggerated and don't like how that's being leveraged to criticize Gemma for a late RVS vote”
but that never happened. Nothing was exaggerated, nobody was criticized. You make it sound like several people were attacking Gemma, and all Silver did was ask a question.
2) I thought that Silver's question to Gemma was rhetorical because I didn't catch that it was a legitimate vote with a joke explanation - thought the joke was the explanation for the vote. I don't make it sound like several people were attacking Gemma and don't really know where you got that in the first place. It was a leap. Since when is taking leaps early a bad and scummy thing?
I also can’t see why you’d care if someone was criticizing Gemma. Do you have a townread on her?
No, but that doesn't really matter. I thought that silver was going "Axelrod ended RVS here, why are you still making a late RVS vote?". I acknowledge that it was a silly thought, but I figured the same person who thought that Mindreaver not RVSing him back was weird might also take issue with an RVS vote made after an arbitrary point.
One more thing before I leave: Nacho taking KCC’s role soft as gospel and freaking out over it reads as TMI. He knows she’s town, and therefore is assuming she’s telling the truth. Even though she could totally be bluffing for reactions or something.
How did my initial posting on KCC imply that I thought she was telling the truth? Pressing her to claim early shows skepticism of the claim if nothing else...?
@Gemma: Expectation was on the game flow; the game had finally started up, he was around, why not engage with what was happening? I still don't really like 55 because it was inaccurate and lazy but I acknowledge neither of those things necessarily lead to scum.
@Nacho
well she is forever in the limelight now, I have fake claimed in the past yes, anyways I will see where it goes, if KCC manages to look town outside her claim based off her posts, tone, and analysis, then my read will stand
also I think I jumped the gun with you, your latter posts so analysis that feels like a townie trying to understand peoples' posts and thoughts
while also giving your own
@Nacho: Why are you asking silver why he asking Asta for his/her experience? Is there an obvious scum motive I'm missing?
Why should Vaimes feel silly?
Also can you talk to me about 83? Walk me through it a bit.
Still want answers to these.
Rhand: Ok I see where he said that. It could be a thing.
I'm gonna say Axel and KCC are unaligned because of it though.
Fulcrum: Hi. Been a while.
So, I need some insight into Gemma. I feel like she doesn't need to sort Nacho, and she isn't really engaging me on that.
Also actually, some insight into Nacho would be good too. He seems to be doing this thing where he's trying to get Vaimes to stop scumreading him passive-aggressively and I'm scumreading it quite a bit.
Also they got rid of dark theme when Curse bought us I think. It's not there anymore.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
re: the question to Asta, it's not just a surface level "didn't vote, everyone should vote" but the lack of an RVS vote is related, yes. A bunch of people left their RVS votes at home this game, I didn't comment on those because I think Asta's and maaaybe Mindreaver's are the only ones that might be AI.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
ya so 5 pages in and I think Vezok is closer to his scum self, not as natural, reads that I feel like he pulled out of thin air
whiteknighting Fulcrum, and somehow turning that into a reason to scumlean me more???
Vote: Vezok
@Vezok
What is so townie about Ful's posts? like everything outside the first post is literally just ok, nothing that should sway the needle for you at least not enough to warrant shading me for hating her opening post
easy questions, easy call out, and the last line in #220 is just awkward
@Gemma: Expectation was on the game flow; the game had finally started up, he was around, why not engage with what was happening? I still don't really like 55 because it was inaccurate and lazy but I acknowledge neither of those things necessarily lead to scum.
Yeah, part of my question there was about your knowledge of Last as a player because... based on my one game of experience with him... he, um, defies? expectations? Think that's a tactful enough way of putting it.
Tom's vote on Axelrod here seemed to be ragging on him for going after low-hanging fruit (I spy a girl I can get because she doesn't get too many likes), which I most certainly agree with - his two substantive thoughts this game have been "KCC claim bad" and "tom gimmick bad" is essentially the bare minimum to contributing this game.
@Killjoy: I explained to Silver why I challenged his Asta questioning earlier in this post, let me know if you can't find it. The "Vaimes should feel silly" post was because he seemed to be attacking me for being nitpicky in the early game. I also expanded a bit more on the reasons why the LW push on me bothered me, but here we go again - I didn't think that his criticism of my post was accurate because I wasn't speculating on anything (unless we have different definitions of the word) and I don't think I was hedging considering I was pointing out something Silver did that I thought was scummy and I was calling for someone to claim. As a result, seemed like he wasn't really reading my post and instead just wanted to fuel Vaimes's push against me. I didn't like that he didn't engage with anything I posted afterwards because it would have been a good chance for him to solidify a read since I was clearly around and because I felt if that observation/read was something he cared about (as opposed to the alternative of just setting himself up to vote for me later), he would have made the effort to engage.
I agree with Tom's observation in #95 that Sloth has a light and breezy tone to his entrance so far. I'm a little harder to please than he is though, so don't share the townread he gets from it.
If I'm correct on what Tom's townread on me is, then it's a good reason for a townlean. It's probably likelier that I'm reading too much into it because I long to be understood.
@Killjoy: How is Gemma talking about how she used to read me even vaguely relevant to her alignment? I don't really want to talk about what I'm looking for Gemma because I don't want her as scum to know what I'm looking for and I don't think that me putting that in thread is relevant to anyone. I don't know how many of the ~old ways~ will still apply, but that's not something I'm going to determine right here - I'm going to let Gemma do some things until I have an opinion that's a little bit solid, then I'll see how that looks compared to the town!Gemma and scum!Gemma pictures I currently have in my head.
I imagine her reasons are similar to mine.
Did you really just vote her because she didn't answer your question...?
Speaking of that, LW criticizing me for posting in general, even though it’s considerably less, and even though there’s content to comment on, is right up scum alley.
Why do you think so?
@Vezok: Silver saying that Axel killed RVS was an exaggeration, as he himself acknowledged. How on earth is that nnonsensical?
If I want to see the claim and vote to see the claim, how is that less rolefishing than asking for it? Why is it unreasonable to want to avoid wasting time by getting a claim immediately instead of drumming up a wagon specifically to see someone claim?
@Silver: It wasn't an intentionally bad push to get reactions. I was more nitpicky than I would be normally and I also worded my posts a bit more aggressively than I would have if it wasn't early early-game.
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Vote: vezok
Still don't like it. Maybe it is NAI for him, but he oughtn't do it as Town. It helps no one. I don't care if he thinks it's fun.
Sounds like we're going to have another spidertom situation rofl
Spoilers: it isn't a town read
Mindreaver is also not a town read but his self meta is both old and relatively accurate as far as I remember so I'm willing to give him a while longer
The only wolf game of his I remember is the one where his buddy Voxx orchestrated a wolf win by getting him to counterclaim his own buddy Rhand, if I recall that game correctly?
But he and I used to be pretty similar players and we clicked pretty well so...
Anyway.
@Rhand are you voting Axelrod because he's voting tom over the gimmick or is there more there?
I still don't really get how it's shading and not a scumread?
Gemma, did you throw a dart at a piece of paper with random post numbers to decide where to vote?
Vezok uses she pronouns? Or are we just calling everyone she now for memes?
From a scum-standpoint, I completely disagree, and honestly, many scum play a brazen game. I certainly do when I role it, so I'm not sure what your basis was for this.
Add to that that your comments prior seemed to be specifically about Nacho, regardless of how you're painting them now...hm.
Possible early distancing...or waffling. Unsure as of yet.
(1) What about this is shading? The points, from a common sense standpoint, are objectively true and confirmable. Is there anything there you disagree with? If so, why?
(2) Vezok is actually not the first one to bring up those points. What makes him a shader and others not?
Game is in a weird place where the people who are posting I feel mostly okay about and the other people are... not posting. Or at least, they aren't posting often enough to give me that injection of Mafia straight into my veins.
@Gemma tell me about Lastwhisper, you've voted him a bunch and then moved elsewhere without actually talking about him that I can see.
I ~kind~ of want to townlean him with Axelrod so tell me why that's a bad idea
Anyway, good night!
Give me a scenario where a non-proactive town is worth keeping around.
In addition, "fear mongering" is an interesting term when the "probably not" quote is oddly ambivalent and sows doubt.
I mean they are town in this case? so are you arguing you should kill bad town? cause thats a yikes from me dog
and let's look at this quote
Maybe this is town paranioa, but it's definitely not needed, its just shade on Nacho. It reeks of an agenda or maybe even TMI in the world of Vezok/Nacho, and overall it's just very manipulative, like man, they are starting to town read Nacho here, so let me just slide in this shade so that they doubt themselves
@Rhand
I agree with the people attacking Tom's gimmick being wolfy, but that's also on an individual level, because I think the two other players that attack it, both Sloth, and Axel, don't look great. But I am town, so its probably NAI unless you look deeply at how they are attacking, remember context matters, and I personally dont think either of their frustrations feel real
Nacho re-evaluating me is good, I think? probably strengthens the W/W world that Vaimes has right now though
Mindreavers response on page 4 feels very appeally, his meta is very hard to analyze since it depends on consistency that maybe we will see in day 1 because its so long?
Mindreaver/Vezok/Axel/Sloth
something like that right now
I assume / hope that at some point Last will make a din of some kind, will go crazy about something with complete conviction, and when that happens I'll get a read on him. Until then, shrug. I was voting him in a show of support for Nacho, because Nacho is friend, and I like wagons.
Manipulative.
Vezok: What is your experience with Gemma?
Von: Does lastwhisper tmi?
Gemma: Hey, love.
You all let tom get away with too much *****. Threatening him to get him to stop a gimmick doesn't work if you won't follow through. Lynch him a few times, and he'll learn.
I don't really understand how you got so deep into this tunnel?
Yes, I was wrong that Silver was scumreading Gemma - I didn't think he was aaking a legitimate question because I thought the answer was obvious. That was wrong, but don't really understand how you got from that to "any worlds where Nacho is town requires redacted information and that's LOL".
I also was nitpicky and overly aggressive in the early game and I can see people being weirded out by that if they didn't know what I was doing, but there's nothing scummy about either of those qualities in early game when people are trying to generate information.
Then there's my position on KCC's claim; claiming that I'm "freaking out as scum" because a townie held up a neon sign that said "LYNCH ME, I'M NOT CONFIRMABLE" is ridiculously dumb; if faced with a claim like that as scum, chances are I try to mislynch her eventually but I'm not so inexperienced to the point where I figure it's something I have to attempt immediately like you're currently implying.
Your push on me is frustrating because I don't think it's coming from scum but you're pushing me like you are scum - you're attacking small pieces of my play but ignoring my play as a whole, you're acting like I've messed up to the point where I'm either terrible or scum despite it being early as hell and despite me not doing anything close to that bad (I've been scattered and I've had points that were incorrect, but again, nothing that explains the "gosh I can't see any world where Nacho is town that isn't zany". If you're actually invested in reading me this game, take a step back and make an effort to see where I'm coming from.
Whatever.
Nacho, let the KCC thing drop. If they're scum, they locked themselves into a corner in their first post. The kind of scum who does that isn't hard to catch.
Not my name.
K.
You townread Silver for the nuance in this post, yeah?
I feel the other hand part is resting a on lazy assumption, that wolf!nacho would be trying to mislynch him at that point of the game instead of just putting out activity to get townread. You saw it differently?
If he's scum, a townie attacked him early and then started getting railroaded by another townie. No one had backed off at that point and no one else was really in the conversation, so calling me town while I'm in the middle of attacking him is more likely to leave him vulnerable than it is to do anything for him. And it's possible he wasn't thinking that deeply, but I also think it's more natural for scum to lash out against those attacking them than it is to start attacking then back off while they're still getting heat.
Does that make sense?
I mean, I get what you're saying, I just don't agree? I think Silver is the type of scum that leans towards townreading someone starting to push him, not shoving back. Where did he start attacking you, actually? My impression was that he was digging for answers, not pushing you.
OK, how does that affect your read?
not a fan of the last comment in his #220
its relatively weak though
on another note, nacho/ful being w/w is unlikely after #222
Okay but I know for a fact that's an oog opinion, they've played together offsite and tom gets lunched way more often there than he does here because they don't put up with him as much as we do lol
Also the whole discussion is kind of not w/w but that post you pointed to specifically isn't I don't think
Someone remind me to revisit this if I forget, don't want to poison the well on the discussion Nacho and fonti are having
Gemma's attack on me is ???. I voted nacho because I think they are scum. I didn't have questions to ask to clarify what was said because my mind was already made. I voted hoping that other would be convinced and do the same.
I like fullcrums entry and don't like LW setting him as a scum read.
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Just like, connect the dots for me between "posts that don't make sense" and "is a wolf"
thats not how this works at all
his latter posts were ok though
The motivations that I can parse for this soft are a little iffy regardless of KCC's alignment; my initial thought was that she was a newer player making a bit of a misplay to the point where it might be possible to get her to claim early and lock her in as town; unconventional and maybe not the greatest play, but also somewhat influenced by the fact that I can't think of a role that's not pro-scum but also scummy, meaning that the chances of her being silly were decent and thus the potential of getting a confident town early outweighed the risk of outing something I shouldn't out early. I also hoped she was actually around so that I could see her reaction to being pressed to claim a bit (guessing she wouldn't expect a strong push early to get her to do so if scum), but that didn't happy and so I'm happy enough with her "I know what I'm doing, leave me alone" post.
It's not particularly relevant to my opinion of LW's alignment, but I'm sort of amused that they took time to explain that entering a game with "hi" is NAI.
I thought that you were asking this question because Asta hadn't placed an RVS vote and you were trying to give them an out before pushing them for it. I don't think that voting alone advances the game and so I'm usually not hot and bothered when people don't vote as long as they're attempting to push the game forward in some way or another. Is my prediction wrong? Did you have a better reason for asking this question?
Axelrod's 139 implies that you've done something similar in the past as scum - have you? I also disagree with this read - I don't feel like claiming that she has a scummy role is "transparent" since that can mean a wide variety of things. I agree that she would expect to get some attention for it, but she's also not really putting anything significant out there and what can people attack her for here?
I think that RVS is over when everyone has something that they can talk about without overextending to do so. So, when you said that Axel killed RVS, I figured you said as much because you thought he brought up something worth talking about it and then... didn't talk about it. Your later posts clarified that you said he killed RVS because he was making a serious attempt to scumhunt and not because of any opinions you held of his scumhunting in and of itself which is fine, just not the meaning I thought it had.
My thoughts on the claim are at the top of this post; let me know if I need to clarify anything.
I have a light town read on Silver's #65, #56. I liked hint of passion when correcting me on his take on Axel and makes it more likely that it's a position he actually has and I liked his observation on me treating him like an "unseen force" for reasons I don't entirely understand.
1)
2) I thought that Silver's question to Gemma was rhetorical because I didn't catch that it was a legitimate vote with a joke explanation - thought the joke was the explanation for the vote. I don't make it sound like several people were attacking Gemma and don't really know where you got that in the first place. It was a leap. Since when is taking leaps early a bad and scummy thing?
No, but that doesn't really matter. I thought that silver was going "Axelrod ended RVS here, why are you still making a late RVS vote?". I acknowledge that it was a silly thought, but I figured the same person who thought that Mindreaver not RVSing him back was weird might also take issue with an RVS vote made after an arbitrary point.
How did my initial posting on KCC imply that I thought she was telling the truth? Pressing her to claim early shows skepticism of the claim if nothing else...?
@Gemma: Expectation was on the game flow; the game had finally started up, he was around, why not engage with what was happening? I still don't really like 55 because it was inaccurate and lazy but I acknowledge neither of those things necessarily lead to scum.
That's. Not. My. Name.
well she is forever in the limelight now, I have fake claimed in the past yes, anyways I will see where it goes, if KCC manages to look town outside her claim based off her posts, tone, and analysis, then my read will stand
also I think I jumped the gun with you, your latter posts so analysis that feels like a townie trying to understand peoples' posts and thoughts
while also giving your own
DUN DUNNNN!!!
Rhand: Ok I see where he said that. It could be a thing.
I'm gonna say Axel and KCC are unaligned because of it though.
Fulcrum: Hi. Been a while.
So, I need some insight into Gemma. I feel like she doesn't need to sort Nacho, and she isn't really engaging me on that.
Also actually, some insight into Nacho would be good too. He seems to be doing this thing where he's trying to get Vaimes to stop scumreading him passive-aggressively and I'm scumreading it quite a bit.
Also they got rid of dark theme when Curse bought us I think. It's not there anymore.
@Nacho:
re: the question to Asta, it's not just a surface level "didn't vote, everyone should vote" but the lack of an RVS vote is related, yes. A bunch of people left their RVS votes at home this game, I didn't comment on those because I think Asta's and maaaybe Mindreaver's are the only ones that might be AI.
re: your KCC opinions that tracks, yeah.
whiteknighting Fulcrum, and somehow turning that into a reason to scumlean me more???
Vote: Vezok
@Vezok
What is so townie about Ful's posts? like everything outside the first post is literally just ok, nothing that should sway the needle for you at least not enough to warrant shading me for hating her opening post
easy questions, easy call out, and the last line in #220 is just awkward
Tom's vote on Axelrod here seemed to be ragging on him for going after low-hanging fruit (I spy a girl I can get because she doesn't get too many likes), which I most certainly agree with - his two substantive thoughts this game have been "KCC claim bad" and "tom gimmick bad" is essentially the bare minimum to contributing this game.
@Killjoy: I explained to Silver why I challenged his Asta questioning earlier in this post, let me know if you can't find it. The "Vaimes should feel silly" post was because he seemed to be attacking me for being nitpicky in the early game. I also expanded a bit more on the reasons why the LW push on me bothered me, but here we go again - I didn't think that his criticism of my post was accurate because I wasn't speculating on anything (unless we have different definitions of the word) and I don't think I was hedging considering I was pointing out something Silver did that I thought was scummy and I was calling for someone to claim. As a result, seemed like he wasn't really reading my post and instead just wanted to fuel Vaimes's push against me. I didn't like that he didn't engage with anything I posted afterwards because it would have been a good chance for him to solidify a read since I was clearly around and because I felt if that observation/read was something he cared about (as opposed to the alternative of just setting himself up to vote for me later), he would have made the effort to engage.
I agree with Tom's observation in #95 that Sloth has a light and breezy tone to his entrance so far. I'm a little harder to please than he is though, so don't share the townread he gets from it.
If I'm correct on what Tom's townread on me is, then it's a good reason for a townlean. It's probably likelier that I'm reading too much into it because I long to be understood.
@Killjoy: How is Gemma talking about how she used to read me even vaguely relevant to her alignment? I don't really want to talk about what I'm looking for Gemma because I don't want her as scum to know what I'm looking for and I don't think that me putting that in thread is relevant to anyone. I don't know how many of the ~old ways~ will still apply, but that's not something I'm going to determine right here - I'm going to let Gemma do some things until I have an opinion that's a little bit solid, then I'll see how that looks compared to the town!Gemma and scum!Gemma pictures I currently have in my head.
I imagine her reasons are similar to mine.
Did you really just vote her because she didn't answer your question...?
Why do you think so?
@Vezok: Silver saying that Axel killed RVS was an exaggeration, as he himself acknowledged. How on earth is that nnonsensical?
If I want to see the claim and vote to see the claim, how is that less rolefishing than asking for it? Why is it unreasonable to want to avoid wasting time by getting a claim immediately instead of drumming up a wagon specifically to see someone claim?
@Silver: It wasn't an intentionally bad push to get reactions. I was more nitpicky than I would be normally and I also worded my posts a bit more aggressively than I would have if it wasn't early early-game.