It's been a while since we had a third party role in any queue but they're a bit more likely in specialties
Powerful wolf abilities are pretty common in specialties since town usually has a lot of roles or strong ones, but this was advertised as medium complexity so I wouldn't expect anything super strong
Most hosts here mix wolfish roles on villagers with townish roles on wolves, we've had a few actual wolf doctors and stuff like roleblocker/delayer are pretty common town roles, especially in games with a lot of them.
Last DV game I was a vanilla town that had an item to transform into a role with a mandatory night kill that interacted with mechanics in a way that made it seem like I was a serial killer, but if my kill ever succeeded I became vanilla again. For example. And there was also a public vig item so I looked even worse because I couldn't really claim vig.
I would say KCC's claim itself probably doesn't move the needle for me, all in all. The role could be either alignment. I ~kind of think it's more villagery that she said it looks wolfy because role cop is likely a role that exists, though she could be a wolf who knows that if there's a role cop, they're town, I suppose.
I would say KCC's claim itself probably doesn't move the needle for me, all in all. The role could be either alignment. I ~kind of think it's more villagery that she said it looks wolfy because role cop is likely a role that exists, though she could be a wolf who knows that if there's a role cop, they're town, I suppose.
Sorry, why does a role cop likely existing make KCC saying her role sounds wolfy a towny thing?
I would say KCC's claim itself probably doesn't move the needle for me, all in all. The role could be either alignment. I ~kind of think it's more villagery that she said it looks wolfy because role cop is likely a role that exists, though she could be a wolf who knows that if there's a role cop, they're town, I suppose.
Sorry, why does a role cop likely existing make KCC saying her role sounds wolfy a towny thing?
I mean, it's possible she didn't even think about it one way or the other but if she's town she doesn't know the role cop's alignment and wouldn't want to be a miller for a possible town role cop.
That was a driving factor when I claimed the SK-looking role in Arkham I mentioned, anyway, though it was a bit different since I just full-claimed because I didn't particularly care about actually getting the kills off. Could be projecting but, I dunno, if she's a wolf she'd be claiming it into a possible town role cop or she knows her team has a role cop and she doesn't even need to claim it then since she can just fake claim.
I guess you're thinking she might claim it if she knows the wolf team doesn't have the role cop because she doesn't want to be copped and then pushed for her role? Ehh... maybe? Seems like better odds to just plan on not getting role copped to me in that case, though.
How common on 3rd parties in these kind of setups? How common are powerful, targeted scum abilities?
Not sure what you are asking here with the "how common on 3rd parties" thing. Are you just asking "Hw common are 3rd party roles like a SK or a Neutral role?" If that's it then I would say they are fairly common.
Same with the powerful, targeted scum abilities. Everything KCC claimed is something that could easily be on a scum (or not, like, mods do try to make it non-obvious at least sometimes). Most of us just finished a game with a scum "Delayer" role.
can the roleblock stop kills that /aren't/ the NK?
It should stop a vig shot. If there's a SK... IDK, that would depend on details and wording of the SK role.
I'm wondering about this. So, your RB ability is worded so it specifically won't stop a Mafia night-kill, but it would stop a vig. shot? So it doesn't just say "this won't stop killing actions." It specifies the Mafia kill?
My issue here being that that goes a little beyond just being scummy-sounding and towards the area of "actively detrimental" to Town.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Silver, I follow the start of that post, but what exactly does it mean/how would it play out for KCC to “plan on not getting rolecopped”?
By not softing and just using the role in a pro-wolf way
Like, if she delays or roleblocks an obvious villager now we're going to know about it, and if she was planning to fake claim later I have no idea why she wouldn't have used it now
She basically put herself into a box by softing at all and it'd kind of be weird for her to do that as the roleblocker if she's a wolf?
Oh, okay. That makes sense, Silver.
No linger being able to act on consensus town is a detriment, I agree, but there are always gonna be villagers in the POE she could still act on, right?
Axel, why do you characterize that ability as actively detrimental to town? I feel like RB is always detrimental to town if it targets town PRs, no matter whether it has that added effect of blocking the NK or not.
And also, Axel, do you think that antitownness makes KCC mafia, or town with a scummy sounding ability, or do you have more ambivalent thoughts? Talk to me about your ideas there. If she’s mafia how do you view her soft and claim?
KCC, given what you talked about re: people possibly defending me, how does that change your read on my slot?
A role-blocker doesn't have to be detrimental to Town. Even though scum tend to get better use out of it, it's really kind of a push when it stops scum and Townie abilities equally. But her's doesn't? It stops the Town ability but not the scum one?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
A role-blocker doesn't have to be detrimental to Town. Even though scum tend to get better use out of it, it's really kind of a push when it stops scum and Townie abilities equally. But her's doesn't? It stops the Town ability but not the scum one?
Yeah, I see that. What I’m saying is a normal roleblocker stops all mafia abilities if used on mafia, and all town abilities if used on town. Her claim stops some mafia abilities if used on mafia and all town abilities if used on town. So I feel like if she’s town, it has equal potential to be detrimental to town, and less potential but still some potential to be detrimental to mafia - which isn’t really “actively” detrimental imo.
And also, Axel, do you think that antitownness makes KCC mafia, or town with a scummy sounding ability, or do you have more ambivalent thoughts? Talk to me about your ideas there. If she’s mafia how do you view her soft and claim?
I'm still pondering. It's overall negative, I think. The fact she has nothing "townie-sounding" to claim could be exactly why she up-fronted the soft claim. The alternative for scum is...what? Not claiming, using her role in the most helpful way for the scum and then lying about it later and hoping not to get caught out? And claiming something else? Which she might have trouble proving-up?
On the other hand, as Silver is saying, she's locked herself in a bit of a box now. She can't "delay"/RB obv.-town people and get away with it. Still going to be some wiggle room there. But, if she's scum, then it would seem the "plan" may have been for her to try and use her abilities in the most "Townie-looking" way from the get-go.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I guess where I’m going with that is it feels a little bit misrepresentative of her claim to say that, and to say that while not really committing to a read on her.
But, ehh, I can understand that uncertainty you express about the claim.
Why do you think she would want to use her abilities in a townie-looking way from the get go, if mafia, instead of what Silver was saying about not softing and just blocking/disrupting whoever?
I think this comes down to whether scum would have to expect they'd be forced to claim over the course of the game. If they wouldn't expect that, then KCC being upfront about her role is towny. If they would, then she may have just been addressing something she sees as inevitable. I don't know enough about this site to know which one we're looking at.
Mm, I think that’s a good summation of where I am, fulcrum. I don’t know enough to try to setup meta this either.
Forgive me if you’ve answered these recently, I can’t iso right now - where are you at on me? And I remember you said you felt a little adrift and wanted a suspect, that might have been longer ago than it’d seem to me but have any of the cases presented since then swayed you strongly?
Think my main issue is that I've read the cases against dk and KCC, and I just don't really vibe with them. They're mostly highlighting things that I don't find to be scummy for the individuals in question. I don't even want to lunch Keldeo that much, but if those three are the only options, then I'd prefer to kill Keldeo just because of all the fuss Mind caused.
I'll reread the cases, but the first time I went over Nacho's/Gemma's posts about KCC slash dk, it didn't really do anything for me.
Mm, I think that’s a good summation of where I am, fulcrum. I don’t know enough to try to setup meta this either.
Forgive me if you’ve answered these recently, I can’t iso right now - where are you at on me? And I remember you said you felt a little adrift and wanted a suspect, that might have been longer ago than it’d seem to me but have any of the cases presented since then swayed you strongly?
To answer out of order, not really.
I've read about half of DK's iso, I agree that he feels stiff. I think Gemma's quotes and explanation for them being scummy are kind of eh. Like, is there a contradiction in how he said he viewed the early wagon and how he actually viewed it at the time? Maybe, but I can also just see if being a case of muddled reads and confusing wording. I don't think the difference between how he reacted to the votes on him and how he reacted to the votes on vezok was incongruous in his head.
KKC, I need to look into more, I've seen maybe a 1/3rd of her iso. On a pure gut level, she feels fine? I don't know why she's voting DK, felt like a self-pres move, especially as I believe she was townreading him before. That's not even necessarily scummy. I think her not commenting on relevant things when she did the catch-up isn't great, but not outside the bounds of towniness. And I felt like her treatment of Gemma wasn't that weird? Like, I've seen the "I'm suspicious of this person, but I know they'll never be lynched Today" thing from town before.
My vote is still on Vaimes for a lack of interest in other options, not an actual desire to kill him. My recommendation is that if I die Tonight, kill him Tomorrow.
I agree with the consensus that mind's hogan post felt like scum trying to hype himself up, but that's iffy. I don't have any bad feels from you, but then, I also didn't when observing your last game, and only got you by looking at your interactions with your partner.
I'm thinking about starting a wagon on Grape. When adrift in game, things closer to home are more likely to be useful, and his treatment of me is very close to home.
I'm wondering about this. So, your RB ability is worded so it specifically won't stop a Mafia night-kill, but it would stop a vig. shot? So it doesn't just say "this won't stop killing actions." It specifies the Mafia kill?
It specifies... some restriction. -Actually, fine. I might regret this down the line, but it specifically doesn't hit factional abilities.
So, the mafia kill certainly, and idk if that hints at a neutral of some sort.
My issue here being that that goes a little beyond just being scummy-sounding and towards the area of "actively detrimental" to Town.
Yeah, no kidding, it's one of the bigger reasons I softed. I don't even know what kind of game state would need to develop for me to consider using that
KCC, given what you talked about re: people possibly defending me, how does that change your read on my slot?
It might matter depending on flips down the line, but currently, I think it's less likely to be AI. I still have suspicions on Mind's play, but I'm open to seeing more from you
I think this comes down to whether scum would have to expect they'd be forced to claim over the course of the game. If they wouldn't expect that, then KCC being upfront about her role is towny. If they would, then she may have just been addressing something she sees as inevitable. I don't know enough about this site to know which one we're looking at.
Mass claims are pretty common here but usually not until lylo, I don't really see wolf!KCC claiming she has a wolfy role as a wolf in expectation of being forced to claim in maybe 4-5 game Days when she might be dead anyway, non wolf role cop may not exist or be dead before mass claim, if she wasn't thinking about role cops she'd be able to fake claim anyway, etc. etc.
Seems like a waste of what is likely one of the stronger wolf roles, to me anyway.
If she really does have a history of being run up like people were saying earlier then maybe she'd want to get out in front of it and town side with her night actions like Axel was saying but I don't think she was run up in Eurovision (the only game I've played with her) and she doesn't have a ton of games since she returned so I'm not really sure how much weight to give that scenario.
I think this comes down to whether scum would have to expect they'd be forced to claim over the course of the game. If they wouldn't expect that, then KCC being upfront about her role is towny. If they would, then she may have just been addressing something she sees as inevitable. I don't know enough about this site to know which one we're looking at.
Mass claims are pretty common here but usually not until lylo, I don't really see wolf!KCC claiming she has a wolfy role as a wolf in expectation of being forced to claim in maybe 4-5 game Days when she might be dead anyway, non wolf role cop may not exist or be dead before mass claim, if she wasn't thinking about role cops she'd be able to fake claim anyway, etc. etc.
Seems like a waste of what is likely one of the stronger wolf roles, to me anyway.
If she really does have a history of being run up like people were saying earlier then maybe she'd want to get out in front of it and town side with her night actions like Axel was saying but I don't think she was run up in Eurovision (the only game I've played with her) and she doesn't have a ton of games since she returned so I'm not really sure how much weight to give that scenario.
OK, I would like more information on the last bit (from anyone more familiar with KCC) but if that's all true, I have no interest in lynching her Today.
I'm thinking about starting a wagon on Grape. When adrift in game, things closer to home are more likely to be useful, and his treatment of me is very close to home.
Uggh sorry. Last night went pear shaped and work has been nuts today. I've skimmed KCC's claim and the reaction and I'm at roughly a shrug. Doesn't move the needle for me much one way or another.
@Gemma Fearmongering does tend to be a scum tactic.
@Keldeo Fulcrum hasn't pinged me in any negative ways. I haven't agreed with all of their reads but I can follow the process behind them. Mostly it's just a gut read to be honest. It's not a read I'd take to end game but it's enough to make me uninterested in trying to start a D1 wagon.
I've still only read around two thirds of the game and a smaller percentage closely.
Can't say I've ever been in a game before where no one really wants to lynch the two main wagons but also doesn't have anything to say to defend them, or have any real alternatives. I don't know what this means about who mafia is but am excited to find out.
Can't say I've ever been in a game before where no one really wants to lynch the two main wagons but also doesn't have anything to say to defend them, or have any real alternatives. I don't know what this means about who mafia is but am excited to find out.
Hey I want tom! Just no one finds my case compelling.
I'm thinking about starting a wagon on Grape. When adrift in game, things closer to home are more likely to be useful, and his treatment of me is very close to home.
Explain?
Look at these Grape quotes. Bolded for convenience.
I mean that with nothing but respect and admiration.
I realize now the wording was poor. I mean your scum game is very strong and I'm not talented enough to sort you. You as a person seem very nice and not at all terrifying.
Not very well, but familiar with you. We were in Tiny Hunt together and I've read several of your games here. And others I'm more familiar with have spoken very highly of your scum game (Tom, Vaimes, and Gemma off the top of my head but I think I remember Voxx and Reg speaking highly of it as well). So enough to have an opinion but not enough to be familiar with the ins and outs of your play.
You didn't treat me like this in that game, iirc. You were paranoid of me, but not talking up my scum game. What changed?
There I knew you worse than everyone else so it didn't make sense to parrot that idea. This game I'm probably in either the top 3rd or half in familiarity with you and there is some value to attempting to moderate the reads of people who don't know you.
FWIW I'm not scum reading Fulcrum, just repeatedly saying I fully believe she'd be able to fool me. If I ignore my repsect/fear of her scum game I'd have her as a squishy town lean.
Tl:dr Ignoring the times he was just responding to my questions, he repeatedly emphasized I'm "terrifying" scum. When called on it, he explained that because most people here don't know me very well, it's important for them to be informed. Here's the thing, though, I haven't rolled scum in 3(?) years so this likely isn't something he discussed with anyone after any particular game since we last played together less than a year ago. And in that game (Tinyhunt 9, we were both town) the closest thing he got to this kind of sentiment was:
Quote from "Grapefruit" »
The way Fonti and Reg have come to these somewhat strong but relatively vague town reads on each other is making me paranoid. I don't really understand either of their town reads one each other and am just going to trust that the people saying this is town Reg (who aren't Fonti) a aren't mistaken.
For context, this was after I talked to Reg and I flipped a townread on Gemma into wanting to kill her. It was a fair thing to be weirded out by.
So, it's not so much that he didn't feel the need to warn anyone about me having a strong scumgame there, so much as not having an strong fear of my scum game reflected in his posts at all. I literally didn't recognize him in this game, because the way he talked about me was so different from before.
I can't tell if grape is defending DK because they're wolves together or if grape is just legit uncertain. I can't say I agree with grape reading axel, fulcrum, and tom as scum right now-- they seem like generally odd choices, but maybe grape saw something I didn't. Axel is back and posting again, so I might better pick up a town/scum read in a little bit when I get back.
FWIW I'm not scum reading Fulcrum, just repeatedly saying I fully believe she'd be able to fool me. If I ignore my repsect/fear of her scum game I'd have her as a squishy town lean.
...
Gemma, DK, Vaimes, Nacho, and Fulcrum are players I'm not interested toDay at all. They've given enough that they either impress me as generally townie without a defining moment or have a moment that gives me doubts they're scum but no overall impression. Vaimes is the closest falling out of that group mostly by peer pressure and self doubt.
With no explanation in between.
The light scumread changing to a neutral read happened after my first call-out (the "Hey, man what the hell?), and I'm suspicious it happened because of that.
Actually just had a brainwave and I think KCC's role makes a lot of sense from a design perspective as town in a game with masons. It's a lot of (theoretical) town power concentrated in a role that doesn't use night actions at all. It obviously depends on what else there is so it's not conclusive but it does make sense.
Vote: DK
I'm still not really feeling it, but I'm feeling it more than Vaimes so *shrug*
KCC, I don't 100% understand why you'd want to holster the blocking ability. If town, you should want to block mafia, right? And since this is a role heavy game, blocking any mafia will probably end up having a pro-town effect of preventing some action even if you can't block the kill.
fulcrum, I understand what you're saying about this inconsistency in grape's read on you. Do you think what you've pointed out from him is mafia indicative more than other suspects? Like if he's w and you're v I understand why he'd want to represent that type of read, to keep from clearing you and to discredit you, but I don't really see how his progression on you is unrealistic or impossible for if you're v/v (like, sentiment of "this person has a scary wolfgame, but she's probably a townlean if I disregard that, but I'm not gonna clear her"). I know you said you wanted to wagon there, I guess I'm asking you if you could elaborate on where this observation leads you.
Grape, sorry, your most recent post confuses me. Do you wanna wagon DK or tom more?
Also this is completely unrelated to anything, but can I ask why you're grapefruit21 on Mafia Universe and Grapefruit21 here?
Think my main issue is that I've read the cases against dk and KCC, and I just don't really vibe with them. They're mostly highlighting things that I don't find to be scummy for the individuals in question. I don't even want to lunch Keldeo that much, but if those three are the only options, then I'd prefer to kill Keldeo just because of all the fuss Mind caused.
I'll reread the cases, but the first time I went over Nacho's/Gemma's posts about KCC slash dk, it didn't really do anything for me.
Okay. I can get just not seeing the cases, but do you have any thoughts on KCC and dk's posts yourself?
We still have time before EOD. Where would you want to go if you could unilaterally decide like 2-3 wagons to be in contention?
Mmm so without having reread the cases on her, I don't really want to kill KCC? I guess I've been building to this for a while so it's a bit founded in devil's advocateness, and I don't have a good alternative atm, but, like. If she flips town, it'd feel a bit like a shrug, I personally wouldn't really get anything out of it in that I already think this case is more likely. And I think the most suspect person on her wagon right now is dk, everyone else there as of the latest VC I feel pretty good about. If she flips mafia we actually learn a good amount from her spew I'd think... but I'm still not convinced that she will.
I mean, maybe it's WIFOMy to read as much into the soft/claim stuff as I've been wanting to. There's nothing super impressive about her posting. I guess the posts where she talked about how she felt on people moving off me and pushing her demonstrated a decent amount of facility speaking about a world that isn't true, but that's not that difficult.
vezok, would really like to know more about your reasons for wolfreading KCC. Is it mostly meta / her not being like how she's been when you've played with town her? I guess I should take a look at her past games.
@keldeo
Personally I think you have already produced enough content that shows you care about this game, and I've read your mafia game in the championship, and I'm not getting any vibes that your content is fake
So lynching you would idiotic to me
Still have no plans to Lynch KCC
I'm more dissapointed in myself at this point, that I can't lock in one scum read in that I am super confident in, that's weird given my style of play
Vaimes to me just feels so forced, why can't we just Lynch him?
Could people talk to me about Axelrod? I think he's a bit of a blind spot to me. Taking a quick look at his posts -
He feels a bit like he's struggling to get a grip on the thread and has posted a good amount about how he doesn't have a ton of time and needs more hard info and stuff to work with. I think this is probably NAI unless he's known for being demotivated as one alignment?
I don't remember who townread him off "Silver fanning the flames on Mindreaver = sneaky no trust" or maybe I'm just making that up? But he also had Mindreaver as scummy so I'm not sure how that fits together. Like, he said that Silver was suspicious for avoiding responsibility for lynching Mindreaver by saying "we should get this over with" with the "we", but if he thinks Mind is scummy, I don't understand why avoiding responsibility for the lynch is a bad thing - it's only a bad thing after Mindreaver flips town.
Also noting the fact that he had dk in his town tier with little elaboration but hasn't really looked at the current dk wagon or tried to convince people on him. I can definitely understand if he's had time issues and hasn't been able to focus on that in the thread.
--
Axel, could you talk a bit more about why you saw dk as "fine" and gave him a townread in #948? Does that still apply, do you have any opinion of the cases against him if you've looked at them?
fulcrum, I understand what you're saying about this inconsistency in grape's read on you. Do you think what you've pointed out from him is mafia indicative more than other suspects? Like if he's w and you're v I understand why he'd want to represent that type of read, to keep from clearing you and to discredit you, but I don't really see how his progression on you is unrealistic or impossible for if you're v/v (like, sentiment of "this person has a scary wolfgame, but she's probably a townlean if I disregard that, but I'm not gonna clear her"). I know you said you wanted to wagon there, I guess I'm asking you if you could elaborate on where this observation leads you.
It's not the quite like that. My issue is I feel like his focus on the "this person has a scary wolfgame" is fake, because it's not something he's ever brought up before. I think the difference in player bases could explain him talking about that more and expressing more paranoia than previous, but there wasn't this paranoia at all before, and nothing I know of has happened between games that could have brought it out, so like, where did it come from? Why is his thought process here so different than when he was town before?
I feel like this isn't a great explanation, sorry. Please let me know if you aren't getting it.
Grape, sorry, your most recent post confuses me. Do you wanna wagon DK or tom more?
Also this is completely unrelated to anything, but can I ask why you're grapefruit21 on Mafia Universe and Grapefruit21 here?
Okay. I can get just not seeing the cases, but do you have any thoughts on KCC and dk's posts yourself?
We still have time before EOD. Where would you want to go if you could unilaterally decide like 2-3 wagons to be in contention?
Definitely tom more. Going to DK is compromise because I don't have a ton of strong thoughts and I'm running out of time. While I initially pushed back on the sterile idea it sounds a lot more reasonable now after a night's sleep.
As for KCC I think that the claim is slightly >rand to be town and the manner it was claimed in (the theatrics, initial reluctance to claim, and lack of concern)is slightly more >rand to be town.
I'm still a bit of a stickler for formality but I've slightly relaxed my stance on automatically capitalizing every proper noun.
I don't remember who townread him off "Silver fanning the flames on Mindreaver = sneaky no trust" or maybe I'm just making that up? But he also had Mindreaver as scummy so I'm not sure how that fits together. Like, he said that Silver was suspicious for avoiding responsibility for lynching Mindreaver by saying "we should get this over with" with the "we", but if he thinks Mind is scummy, I don't understand why avoiding responsibility for the lynch is a bad thing - it's only a bad thing after Mindreaver flips town.
That was me, sort of, it's more to do with being used to people thinking my tone is weird and his whole progression on me felt like he was doing that and using my handling of the mindreaver wagon to justify why he thought I felt weird.
I'm not really feeling grape either
Why is this game so hard?
Grape is not giving me that disconnected, malicious feel that I tend to see in his wolf games
I feel like there is just not enough information to secure a wolf Lynch today, and it's be better to just hit someone who has given very little content
Like my allergies, they are seasonal.
I'm not super inclined to specify what I can do when ATM
How common on 3rd parties in these kind of setups? How common are powerful, targeted scum abilities?
Are you counterclaiming?
I’m going to be really vl/a for a week
Powerful wolf abilities are pretty common in specialties since town usually has a lot of roles or strong ones, but this was advertised as medium complexity so I wouldn't expect anything super strong
Most hosts here mix wolfish roles on villagers with townish roles on wolves, we've had a few actual wolf doctors and stuff like roleblocker/delayer are pretty common town roles, especially in games with a lot of them.
Last DV game I was a vanilla town that had an item to transform into a role with a mandatory night kill that interacted with mechanics in a way that made it seem like I was a serial killer, but if my kill ever succeeded I became vanilla again. For example. And there was also a public vig item so I looked even worse because I couldn't really claim vig.
I would say KCC's claim itself probably doesn't move the needle for me, all in all. The role could be either alignment. I ~kind of think it's more villagery that she said it looks wolfy because role cop is likely a role that exists, though she could be a wolf who knows that if there's a role cop, they're town, I suppose.
I got wrapped up in being dramatic?
I'm Town Trickster
It should stop a vig shot. If there's a SK... IDK, that would depend on details and wording of the SK role.
I don’t think this is a hit.
Of the three options I’d rather kill Keldeo over dk over KCC.
Not directly, no.
Let's leave it at that.
Sorry, why does a role cop likely existing make KCC saying her role sounds wolfy a towny thing?
That was a driving factor when I claimed the SK-looking role in Arkham I mentioned, anyway, though it was a bit different since I just full-claimed because I didn't particularly care about actually getting the kills off. Could be projecting but, I dunno, if she's a wolf she'd be claiming it into a possible town role cop or she knows her team has a role cop and she doesn't even need to claim it then since she can just fake claim.
I guess you're thinking she might claim it if she knows the wolf team doesn't have the role cop because she doesn't want to be copped and then pushed for her role? Ehh... maybe? Seems like better odds to just plan on not getting role copped to me in that case, though.
Not sure what you are asking here with the "how common on 3rd parties" thing. Are you just asking "Hw common are 3rd party roles like a SK or a Neutral role?" If that's it then I would say they are fairly common.
Same with the powerful, targeted scum abilities. Everything KCC claimed is something that could easily be on a scum (or not, like, mods do try to make it non-obvious at least sometimes). Most of us just finished a game with a scum "Delayer" role.
I'm wondering about this. So, your RB ability is worded so it specifically won't stop a Mafia night-kill, but it would stop a vig. shot? So it doesn't just say "this won't stop killing actions." It specifies the Mafia kill?
My issue here being that that goes a little beyond just being scummy-sounding and towards the area of "actively detrimental" to Town.
Silver, I follow the start of that post, but what exactly does it mean/how would it play out for KCC to “plan on not getting rolecopped”?
Like, if she delays or roleblocks an obvious villager now we're going to know about it, and if she was planning to fake claim later I have no idea why she wouldn't have used it now
She basically put herself into a box by softing at all and it'd kind of be weird for her to do that as the roleblocker if she's a wolf?
No linger being able to act on consensus town is a detriment, I agree, but there are always gonna be villagers in the POE she could still act on, right?
Axel, why do you characterize that ability as actively detrimental to town? I feel like RB is always detrimental to town if it targets town PRs, no matter whether it has that added effect of blocking the NK or not.
KCC, given what you talked about re: people possibly defending me, how does that change your read on my slot?
Yeah, I see that. What I’m saying is a normal roleblocker stops all mafia abilities if used on mafia, and all town abilities if used on town. Her claim stops some mafia abilities if used on mafia and all town abilities if used on town. So I feel like if she’s town, it has equal potential to be detrimental to town, and less potential but still some potential to be detrimental to mafia - which isn’t really “actively” detrimental imo.
On the other hand, as Silver is saying, she's locked herself in a bit of a box now. She can't "delay"/RB obv.-town people and get away with it. Still going to be some wiggle room there. But, if she's scum, then it would seem the "plan" may have been for her to try and use her abilities in the most "Townie-looking" way from the get-go.
Why do you think she would want to use her abilities in a townie-looking way from the get go, if mafia, instead of what Silver was saying about not softing and just blocking/disrupting whoever?
Forgive me if you’ve answered these recently, I can’t iso right now - where are you at on me? And I remember you said you felt a little adrift and wanted a suspect, that might have been longer ago than it’d seem to me but have any of the cases presented since then swayed you strongly?
I'll reread the cases, but the first time I went over Nacho's/Gemma's posts about KCC slash dk, it didn't really do anything for me.
To answer out of order, not really.
I've read about half of DK's iso, I agree that he feels stiff. I think Gemma's quotes and explanation for them being scummy are kind of eh. Like, is there a contradiction in how he said he viewed the early wagon and how he actually viewed it at the time? Maybe, but I can also just see if being a case of muddled reads and confusing wording. I don't think the difference between how he reacted to the votes on him and how he reacted to the votes on vezok was incongruous in his head.
KKC, I need to look into more, I've seen maybe a 1/3rd of her iso. On a pure gut level, she feels fine? I don't know why she's voting DK, felt like a self-pres move, especially as I believe she was townreading him before. That's not even necessarily scummy. I think her not commenting on relevant things when she did the catch-up isn't great, but not outside the bounds of towniness. And I felt like her treatment of Gemma wasn't that weird? Like, I've seen the "I'm suspicious of this person, but I know they'll never be lynched Today" thing from town before.
My vote is still on Vaimes for a lack of interest in other options, not an actual desire to kill him. My recommendation is that if I die Tonight, kill him Tomorrow.
I agree with the consensus that mind's hogan post felt like scum trying to hype himself up, but that's iffy. I don't have any bad feels from you, but then, I also didn't when observing your last game, and only got you by looking at your interactions with your partner.
I'm thinking about starting a wagon on Grape. When adrift in game, things closer to home are more likely to be useful, and his treatment of me is very close to home.
I did not.
It specifies... some restriction. -Actually, fine. I might regret this down the line, but it specifically doesn't hit factional abilities.
So, the mafia kill certainly, and idk if that hints at a neutral of some sort.
Yeah, no kidding, it's one of the bigger reasons I softed. I don't even know what kind of game state would need to develop for me to consider using that
It might matter depending on flips down the line, but currently, I think it's less likely to be AI. I still have suspicions on Mind's play, but I'm open to seeing more from you
Seems like a waste of what is likely one of the stronger wolf roles, to me anyway.
If she really does have a history of being run up like people were saying earlier then maybe she'd want to get out in front of it and town side with her night actions like Axel was saying but I don't think she was run up in Eurovision (the only game I've played with her) and she doesn't have a ton of games since she returned so I'm not really sure how much weight to give that scenario.
OK, I would like more information on the last bit (from anyone more familiar with KCC) but if that's all true, I have no interest in lynching her Today.
@Gemma Fearmongering does tend to be a scum tactic.
@Keldeo Fulcrum hasn't pinged me in any negative ways. I haven't agreed with all of their reads but I can follow the process behind them. Mostly it's just a gut read to be honest. It's not a read I'd take to end game but it's enough to make me uninterested in trying to start a D1 wagon.
Hey I want tom! Just no one finds my case compelling.
Look at these Grape quotes. Bolded for convenience.
For context, this was after I talked to Reg and I flipped a townread on Gemma into wanting to kill her. It was a fair thing to be weirded out by.
So, it's not so much that he didn't feel the need to warn anyone about me having a strong scumgame there, so much as not having an strong fear of my scum game reflected in his posts at all. I literally didn't recognize him in this game, because the way he talked about me was so different from before.
Also,
To this:
To this:
With no explanation in between.
Vote: DK
I'm still not really feeling it, but I'm feeling it more than Vaimes so *shrug*
Can people please join my ex-vote on tom?
fulcrum, I understand what you're saying about this inconsistency in grape's read on you. Do you think what you've pointed out from him is mafia indicative more than other suspects? Like if he's w and you're v I understand why he'd want to represent that type of read, to keep from clearing you and to discredit you, but I don't really see how his progression on you is unrealistic or impossible for if you're v/v (like, sentiment of "this person has a scary wolfgame, but she's probably a townlean if I disregard that, but I'm not gonna clear her"). I know you said you wanted to wagon there, I guess I'm asking you if you could elaborate on where this observation leads you.
Grape, sorry, your most recent post confuses me. Do you wanna wagon DK or tom more?
Okay. I can get just not seeing the cases, but do you have any thoughts on KCC and dk's posts yourself?
We still have time before EOD. Where would you want to go if you could unilaterally decide like 2-3 wagons to be in contention?
I mean, maybe it's WIFOMy to read as much into the soft/claim stuff as I've been wanting to. There's nothing super impressive about her posting. I guess the posts where she talked about how she felt on people moving off me and pushing her demonstrated a decent amount of facility speaking about a world that isn't true, but that's not that difficult.
vezok, would really like to know more about your reasons for wolfreading KCC. Is it mostly meta / her not being like how she's been when you've played with town her? I guess I should take a look at her past games.
dk, do you have any thoughts on the claim / her elaboration beyond this?
Personally I think you have already produced enough content that shows you care about this game, and I've read your mafia game in the championship, and I'm not getting any vibes that your content is fake
So lynching you would idiotic to me
Still have no plans to Lynch KCC
I'm more dissapointed in myself at this point, that I can't lock in one scum read in that I am super confident in, that's weird given my style of play
Vaimes to me just feels so forced, why can't we just Lynch him?
DK is a shrug I guess
He feels a bit like he's struggling to get a grip on the thread and has posted a good amount about how he doesn't have a ton of time and needs more hard info and stuff to work with. I think this is probably NAI unless he's known for being demotivated as one alignment?
I don't remember who townread him off "Silver fanning the flames on Mindreaver = sneaky no trust" or maybe I'm just making that up? But he also had Mindreaver as scummy so I'm not sure how that fits together. Like, he said that Silver was suspicious for avoiding responsibility for lynching Mindreaver by saying "we should get this over with" with the "we", but if he thinks Mind is scummy, I don't understand why avoiding responsibility for the lynch is a bad thing - it's only a bad thing after Mindreaver flips town.
Also noting the fact that he had dk in his town tier with little elaboration but hasn't really looked at the current dk wagon or tried to convince people on him. I can definitely understand if he's had time issues and hasn't been able to focus on that in the thread.
--
Axel, could you talk a bit more about why you saw dk as "fine" and gave him a townread in #948? Does that still apply, do you have any opinion of the cases against him if you've looked at them?
It's not the quite like that. My issue is I feel like his focus on the "this person has a scary wolfgame" is fake, because it's not something he's ever brought up before. I think the difference in player bases could explain him talking about that more and expressing more paranoia than previous, but there wasn't this paranoia at all before, and nothing I know of has happened between games that could have brought it out, so like, where did it come from? Why is his thought process here so different than when he was town before?
I feel like this isn't a great explanation, sorry. Please let me know if you aren't getting it.
Definitely tom more. Going to DK is compromise because I don't have a ton of strong thoughts and I'm running out of time. While I initially pushed back on the sterile idea it sounds a lot more reasonable now after a night's sleep.
As for KCC I think that the claim is slightly >rand to be town and the manner it was claimed in (the theatrics, initial reluctance to claim, and lack of concern)is slightly more >rand to be town.
Why is this game so hard?
Grape is not giving me that disconnected, malicious feel that I tend to see in his wolf games
I feel like there is just not enough information to secure a wolf Lynch today, and it's be better to just hit someone who has given very little content
Or vaimes, that would make me happy
I can see myself voting Tom at this point