KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Rhand: You don't actually believe I'm scum. You don't care why I think you're scum. You're strawmanning it as "because it's easy" when there's a whole post devoted to which posts I was scumreading (not why, but you could have asked) so it's obviously not "because it's easy".
All you said in that post was “I didn’t like his latest posts”. No specifications of which posts or why, just that. Gemma asked you about that and you brushed her off.
And with regards to Vaimes asking someone to ISO Grape... it's weak. Especially since Sloth had.... basically nothing to his name. He didn't post enough to formulate a coherant mindset. ISOing Sloth doesn't really give much in the way of alignment for Sloth, let alone Grape.
Vaimes told Grape to ISO Vaimes. You’re not even reading what I say.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I think KJ is scum. After all the times he was wrong about my alignment, I should be at least in his lean reads.
As town I always saw him evolve the read at least. Now he just throws me in his mafia reads.
I think he sees me as an easy “scumread“ because I always catch flak early game.
vote Killjoy
Talk to me about his meta. I was under the impression that him posting a bunch = town, regardless of the quality of that content, and that he didn't have much of a scumgame.
Inconsistent isn't the right word cause that probably gets translated as you are all over the place
What I mean is you aren't consistent with your posting as the game goes on, which day 1 sure, no wim sure
But there is a lack of care in your posts, maybe you are changing your meta, but I still really hate that post on mindreaver, and you voting him just blows my mind
I don't feel like producing anymore content since I don't want to bother explaining my thought process over and over again
Like just vote whoever, the off chance that I am wrong probably heavily outweighs the chance I am right, since clearly no one likes my thought process anyways
I've produced enough content anyways, so I'll just hammer the vote since day 1 is clearly a crap shoot, and we need lynches to get anywhere apparently
I don't feel like producing anymore content since I don't want to bother explaining my thought process over and over again
Like just vote whoever, the off chance that I am wrong probably heavily outweighs the chance I am right, since clearly no one likes my thought process anyways
I've produced enough content anyways, so I'll just hammer the vote since day 1 is clearly a crap shoot, and we need lynches to get anywhere apparently
Rhand/vaimes feel like wolf/wolf, but in the off chance I am wrong, lynching a top poster is probably bad, but like so is lynching a lurker, so given that, I'd probably vote Rhand, who is in between, even though I also don't really want to vote him day one since I've read him wrong in every game we've been in together, outside resistance
And this is so wrong. It is never bad to post a read-list, even when it doesn't help much. And the idea that you shouldn't because you are giving a "map" to the scum for who they should target is just...weird
I'm aware it's not a common opinion, but you're not arguing that readlists are actually of some great benefit, and you're also not saying that they aren't helpful to scum when planning, so... what exactly am I wrong about here?
Also, even if you believe I'm wrong, since when does disagreeing on theory have anything to do with alignment?
I should have posted a V/LA earlier in the week. We hosted Thanksgiving dinner last night, so I've got a bunch of cleanup to do today and then I'm hosting my annual bourbon tasting party tonight. I should have free time on Sunday so I'll actually dig into everything that has happened since vezok's claim then.
Unvote
Vote KCC
Looks like Mindreaver is gonna be replaced, so I'm going to park my vote here for now. I think it's very likely that exactly one of the rush votes after I posted my case on vezok came from scum, and KCC's is the most dubious when coupled with earlier play.
The thing with him is I haven't really liked his targets. He's been poking slash making off-hand comments at KCC, KJ, Mind. Somewhat easy-to-justify targets, and he did mention that he doesn't have strong stances Day 1 but it's still very very eh, will check that out when I have time. I can't trim quotes and don't want to post a huge wall, but his ISO isn't that long.
The one where he called out KCC for going V/LA without content seemed very out of character for him. I think the villager version of that post is "can you please post about xyz before you go?" or "when you get back, can you answer xyz questions I have for you?" or something Instead it's just shade for shade's sake.
I'm also kind of weirded out by his interactions with Nacho. He looks like he should be a scumread for Axel, but isn't. Feels a little posture-y.
Rhand/vaimes feel like wolf/wolf, but in the off chance I am wrong, lynching a top poster is probably bad, but like so is lynching a lurker, so given that, I'd probably vote Rhand, who is in between, even though I also don't really want to vote him day one since I've read him wrong in every game we've been in together, outside resistance
As for vaimes, yeah, he's probably scum, but I didn't want to do that one until Tomorrow.
And why is that?
Partially, I like having you around if you're town. Partially, I wanted some flips and such first. But mostly I wanted to watch you a little longer without pressure, because if I'm right about what I'm seeing, I think it'll get more obvious D2. And if I'm wrong, I think that would become clearer too.
The one where he called out KCC for going V/LA without content seemed very out of character for him. I think the villager version of that post is "can you please post about xyz before you go?" or "when you get back, can you answer xyz questions I have for you?" or something Instead it's just shade for shade's sake.
I'd agree with this being out of character, if it weren't directed at me specifically. I'd actually be more suspicious of Axel if he weren't constantly shading me.
Rhand/vaimes feel like wolf/wolf, but in the off chance I am wrong, lynching a top poster is probably bad, but like so is lynching a lurker, so given that, I'd probably vote Rhand, who is in between, even though I also don't really want to vote him day one since I've read him wrong in every game we've been in together, outside resistance
I don't really like his killjoy vote
Can we not avoid lynching someone just because they're a lurker. dk and KCC are both lurkers to some degree and if I had to choose the lynch right now it would probably be one of them. If you let lurkers skate by for being lurkers you're just encouraging crappy play and a crappy gamestate.
Rhand/vaimes feel like wolf/wolf, but in the off chance I am wrong, lynching a top poster is probably bad, but like so is lynching a lurker, so given that, I'd probably vote Rhand, who is in between, even though I also don't really want to vote him day one since I've read him wrong in every game we've been in together, outside resistance
I don't really like his killjoy vote
Can we not avoid lynching someone just because they're a lurker. dk and KCC are both lurkers to some degree and if I had to choose the lynch right now it would probably be one of them. If you let lurkers skate by for being lurkers you're just encouraging crappy play and a crappy gamestate.
and if they flip town? We get nothing
KCC has the benefit of her claim, dk doesn't have much but his thoughts so far don't give me any wolf vibes
Like, what even is 1019 from KCC. There's been a bunch happening and she just comments on some piecemeal stuff, makes no real contribution to the game and gives no impression that she actually has a broader sense of what her solve is, how she's trying to get at the game, or that she cares about town winning at all. Everything she's been doing all game is completely irrelevant. She's not helping us win the game. So why does no one want to lynch her? Because she's a lurker? Because she softed a PR? ***** please.
Like, what even is 1019 from KCC. There's been a bunch happening and she just comments on some piecemeal stuff, makes no real contribution to the game and gives no impression that she actually has a broader sense of what her solve is, how she's trying to get at the game, or that she cares about town winning at all. Everything she's been doing all game is completely irrelevant. She's not helping us win the game. So why does no one want to lynch her? Because she's a lurker? Because she softed a PR? ***** please.
that's literally everyone in this game right now, outside maybe silver and you? Or maybe killjoy
Tell me, can u confidently say anyone is without a doubt town? No? Because same
gives no impression that she actually has a broader sense of what her solve is, how she's trying to get at the game, or that she cares about town winning at all.
Strategy
Step 1 lynch someone (Mind is my current preference)
Step 2 reread on D2 with flips
Step 3 win
that's literally everyone in this game right now, outside maybe silver and you? Or maybe killjoy
I don't think it's literally everyone, but that is my point. People are determined to not lynch lurkers, not to hold people to high standards of play, which creates a gamestate where there are no stakes. Everyone's locked on lynching a dead slot and scum can do whatever the **** and it will be indistinguishable from the town players who are doing nothing.
That inconsistency does not move the needle from me, Gemma is a very reactive player, which I can easily see, just like myself, so that does not come off as wolfy
It's not an inconsistency. The lynch being frozen on Mind is a byproduct of the whole deal. Bad gamestates don't just happen, they're a result of the collective process of the players in the game.
Oh, how many innocent socks I've seen lost this way
What do you think of Gemma seemingly being irritated that I haven't been able to be more involved, yet quickly disengaging twice now that I've tried talking to her?
Oh, how many innocent socks I've seen lost this way
What do you think of Gemma seemingly being irritated that I haven't been able to be more involved, yet quickly disengaging twice now that I've tried talking to her?
doesnt bother me at all
should I have a reaction to it at?
I just explained that I don't think she is a wolf based on her style of play and emotional involvement in this game, I think she absolutely believes everything she has said this game, regardless of how good or bad it is
and mind's train did stay on top for a while, so like I understand her gamestate thoughts
KCC: is there a reason for your disengagement from this game that has not been previously stated?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It's not an inconsistency. The lynch being frozen on Mind is a byproduct of the whole deal. Bad gamestates don't just happen, they're a result of the collective process of the players in the game.
The game is where it is because Mind should have been lynched a week ago.
I don't understand why someone who has me as a scum read would try to avoid talking to me. It's not just no attempt to interact with me, it's negative effort
@Last: my point is that if we're going to lunch a lurker there's little reason not to just do it immediately
People saying they want more time to catch up or they want replacements to do things or whatever is fine but at the same time there's a whole Night phase, it isn't like we're in lylo and the game is going to end. Yeah sucks if you die after rereading during Night but the current game state is miserable and I need flips to do much besides tilt at windmills, and I'm clearly not the only one
I will say it's funny Axel is saying he doesn't want to reread without flips but is also suspicious of me for... pushing for a flip
Like if you aren't going to reread why do you need another week to shrug and lunch a lurker? We can do that right now if that's what we're doing
My temporarily highest town reads are on two separate wagons, and I'm honestly not sure which to pick because I don't like either.
KCC's entrance was weird but seemed like such an obvi target that scum wouldn't even flirt with that kind of heat, but LAYERS MAYBE? Yet that multi-quote post with only one response is ALSO weird, and her follow-ups didn't bother explaining.
Vaimes I want to root up some more. I'm not as familiar with his meta as others, but he generally reads about the same as he did in the game I was with him in-- where he played town.
Last is kind of ticking up my reads list a bit, but I'm not pinning anything down yet.
Whatever, I'd rather the game be dynamic than static. If a wagon gets rolling, we might dig something up on the way to the gallows.
ya well, that shifted downhill once Vaimes just hurr durr voted Mind, seemingly not caring if he flipped, which probably makes Mind/Vaimes W/W? but then again Vaimes calling Mind's post like obvious town is a defense neither a wolf, in general, gives to their partner, nor a read that wolf!vaimes probably gives on his partner, at least that's what I think atm
@Silver Sorry you're feeling shat out by the gamestate. Guess I don't really feel the same because I still have a few reads that am kind of anxiously waiting to develop so while I recognize things aren't exactly healthy overall am still pretty compelled by what's going on. Idk, let me know if I can help? I could grab some things for you to look at? I have a bunch of thoughts on different players that I've been holding off posting for ~reasons~ that I could dump if you want something to dig into?
Well, "shat out" is a bit strong, I just find D1s tedious in general so to some extent it's not specific to this game. But that might help, yeah. I have tom thoughts to drop at some point, too.
Actually let's just do that now, we're a week out from deadline and he's had sufficient rope to hang himself by this point
If tom's a wolf he's wolfreading but not pushing most of his partners right now. He doesn't have a lot of influence over the thread, partly because of his post restriction, so he can't really push hard town reads against the thread on his buddies and probably doesn't feel hard put to given the thread focus is veering wildly from wagon to wagon.
Wolf!tom is trying not to rock the boat. He won't hard push a buddy unless their lunch seems inevitable, and there isn't one of those yet. So once we have some flips, if I'm dead and I can't, someone come back to D1 stuff and see whether tom was wolf reading but not voting dead wolves because it's a flag (and obviously if he flips wolf later on that's where you should start looking for partners).
I'm not currently wolf reading him, but, just in case.
Right, so how does affect your read on fulcrum? Because she wrote a bunch of words about how Vaimes was treating tom and how that made Vaimes mafia and tom town - those thoughts didn't make much sense to me but I don't actually scumread tom so you may have a different perspective on them.
I'll quote her post here for you. Will comment more on tom specifically in a bit.
Taking him out of your lynch pool isn't ignoring, it's defending.
defend: resist an attack made on (someone or something); protect from harm or danger.
I don't know what kind of hoops you're jumping through to conflate "defend" and "ignore," but these are very different ideas. Is this supposed to be a partner read? A whiteknighting read? A bad townread?
Oh, you actually responded. Didn't notice.
Taking a person out of your lynch pool is saying they shouldn'y be lynched, aka defending.
I don't really get how this is hard: the majority of people in the game have decided that tom should not be lynched today because gimmick or something, therefore does not have to be worried about being lynched. You are a driving force in that, even though you should know not to be. Like, the reason tom messes around here is because he knows he'll get away with it. He doesn't do that on dlp, because he knows he won't get away with it. He doesn't get away with it there, because we build towncircles, and him obfuscating his reads means he can't get into the towncircles. And that's why lynch pools in general are bad, because it's the people outside the towncircle and the people you have decided not to lynch for non-alignment reason, with nothing distinguishing those two groups. It let's you, Vaimes, avoid Tom's attention without having to townread him.
Where this gets interesting is I actually think Tom is town. The way he backed off me when I asked, several other read timings, the way he responded to Rhand, and the way he looked at the Gemma/me stuff all feel towny. But the way he's been treated this game, I think, goes beyond what can just be expected from this site not caring to lynch him early, into scum deliberately avoiding him. And hey, looks like that weirdness is coming from you and Rhand.
Vote: Vaimes
You have an edge of bravado this game. I was townreading it for a while, after your push on Nacho, and your tango with lastwhisper, but that's all you've done. You're voting Axel, and have basically been on him since the beginning of the game, but don't have any real reasoning for it. You're kind of pushing him, but you're not actually try to convince people to join you. You seem to be coming back into the thread with ideas as they develop, but there mostly one liners for people who annoy you (me, last) not the pointed scumhunting you're capable of. You defended mind both when he wrote his hulk hogan post and when he didn't say anything after. You defended Rhand as an easy early mislynch, but didn't address the actual case against him. You're talking the talk, but not walking the walk.
It's worth mentioning that I iso'd you by control f'ing my way through the game, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something relevant. You're likely not scum with mind anyway, because that defense would've felt very, very bad to make as a partner. So, let's have a go, and see where we land, hmm?
I think KJ is scum. After all the times he was wrong about my alignment, I should be at least in his lean reads.
As town I always saw him evolve the read at least. Now he just throws me in his mafia reads.
I think he sees me as an easy “scumread“ because I always catch flak early game.
vote Killjoy
Talk to me about his meta. I was under the impression that him posting a bunch = town, regardless of the quality of that content, and that he didn't have much of a scumgame.
KJ doesn’t have any recent scum meta that I am aware of.
I had the same idea, but the total lack of progression in his read on me and overly stubbornness to not budge it is very un-him. Town!KJ re-evaluates and is a lot less sure of himself.
So to answer your question: I don’t know his scum meta, but what he is doing here does not look like his town meta (apart from pure post count).
Well, "shat out" is a bit strong, I just find D1s tedious in general so to some extent it's not specific to this game. But that might help, yeah. I have tom thoughts to drop at some point, too.
Actually let's just do that now, we're a week out from deadline and he's had sufficient rope to hang himself by this point
If tom's a wolf he's wolfreading but not pushing most of his partners right now. He doesn't have a lot of influence over the thread, partly because of his post restriction, so he can't really push hard town reads against the thread on his buddies and probably doesn't feel hard put to given the thread focus is veering wildly from wagon to wagon.
Wolf!tom is trying not to rock the boat. He won't hard push a buddy unless their lunch seems inevitable, and there isn't one of those yet. So once we have some flips, if I'm dead and I can't, someone come back to D1 stuff and see whether tom was wolf reading but not voting dead wolves because it's a flag (and obviously if he flips wolf later on that's where you should start looking for partners).
I'm not currently wolf reading him, but, just in case.
Oh I misread your post, thought you said you were scumreading him.
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Ok back to my meal.
All you said in that post was “I didn’t like his latest posts”. No specifications of which posts or why, just that. Gemma asked you about that and you brushed her off.
Vaimes told Grape to ISO Vaimes. You’re not even reading what I say.
Why would scum Vaimes not tell grape to iso him?
What I mean is you aren't consistent with your posting as the game goes on, which day 1 sure, no wim sure
But there is a lack of care in your posts, maybe you are changing your meta, but I still really hate that post on mindreaver, and you voting him just blows my mind
I don't feel like producing anymore content since I don't want to bother explaining my thought process over and over again
Like just vote whoever, the off chance that I am wrong probably heavily outweighs the chance I am right, since clearly no one likes my thought process anyways
I've produced enough content anyways, so I'll just hammer the vote since day 1 is clearly a crap shoot, and we need lynches to get anywhere apparently
So good luck everyone
I don't really like his killjoy vote
I'm aware it's not a common opinion, but you're not arguing that readlists are actually of some great benefit, and you're also not saying that they aren't helpful to scum when planning, so... what exactly am I wrong about here?
Also, even if you believe I'm wrong, since when does disagreeing on theory have anything to do with alignment?
Why did u quote me?
Partially, I like having you around if you're town. Partially, I wanted some flips and such first. But mostly I wanted to watch you a little longer without pressure, because if I'm right about what I'm seeing, I think it'll get more obvious D2. And if I'm wrong, I think that would become clearer too.
So, am I supposed to be bussing him, or jumping on a mislynch here?
I'd agree with this being out of character, if it weren't directed at me specifically. I'd actually be more suspicious of Axel if he weren't constantly shading me.
I don't like that vote either, but I can see why a townRhand would make it. I think it's misguided, not malicious
KCC has the benefit of her claim, dk doesn't have much but his thoughts so far don't give me any wolf vibes
Tell me, can u confidently say anyone is without a doubt town? No? Because same
Strategy
Step 1 lynch someone (Mind is my current preference)
Step 2 reread on D2 with flips
Step 3 win
Am I missing something here?
So, your suggestion is that we should lynch a low poster here.... but very specifically not Mind because...
Gemma/mind w/w then?
Because I'm clearly not discussing theory here. Unless you have an explanation for having this opinion:
But you don't want to help lynch Mind, and are pushing against it?
Regardless of minds alignment
Oh, how many innocent socks I've seen lost this way
What do you think of Gemma seemingly being irritated that I haven't been able to be more involved, yet quickly disengaging twice now that I've tried talking to her?
there is some merit to a mindreaver town read, since his early tone is a complete 180 from how he acted in DiTF
should I have a reaction to it at?
I just explained that I don't think she is a wolf based on her style of play and emotional involvement in this game, I think she absolutely believes everything she has said this game, regardless of how good or bad it is
and mind's train did stay on top for a while, so like I understand her gamestate thoughts
Sorry, should have said that earlier.
The game is where it is because Mind should have been lynched a week ago.
I don't understand why someone who has me as a scum read would try to avoid talking to me. It's not just no attempt to interact with me, it's negative effort I don't randomly v/la, Axel. If this was a shorter phase game, I would have replaced
People saying they want more time to catch up or they want replacements to do things or whatever is fine but at the same time there's a whole Night phase, it isn't like we're in lylo and the game is going to end. Yeah sucks if you die after rereading during Night but the current game state is miserable and I need flips to do much besides tilt at windmills, and I'm clearly not the only one
I will say it's funny Axel is saying he doesn't want to reread without flips but is also suspicious of me for... pushing for a flip
Like if you aren't going to reread why do you need another week to shrug and lunch a lurker? We can do that right now if that's what we're doing
KCC's entrance was weird but seemed like such an obvi target that scum wouldn't even flirt with that kind of heat, but LAYERS MAYBE? Yet that multi-quote post with only one response is ALSO weird, and her follow-ups didn't bother explaining.
Vaimes I want to root up some more. I'm not as familiar with his meta as others, but he generally reads about the same as he did in the game I was with him in-- where he played town.
Last is kind of ticking up my reads list a bit, but I'm not pinning anything down yet.
Whatever, I'd rather the game be dynamic than static. If a wagon gets rolling, we might dig something up on the way to the gallows.
Unvote DK, Vote KittyCupCakes
Just about sums up feelings on this game at the moment
I've tried to start that reread like four times and it's mainly confirming my prior reads
I don't really think Rhand is a wolf anymore but that just makes me want to kill Mindreaver and move on
Maybe I'll just iso Axel and see where that takes me
Actually let's just do that now, we're a week out from deadline and he's had sufficient rope to hang himself by this point
If tom's a wolf he's wolfreading but not pushing most of his partners right now. He doesn't have a lot of influence over the thread, partly because of his post restriction, so he can't really push hard town reads against the thread on his buddies and probably doesn't feel hard put to given the thread focus is veering wildly from wagon to wagon.
Wolf!tom is trying not to rock the boat. He won't hard push a buddy unless their lunch seems inevitable, and there isn't one of those yet. So once we have some flips, if I'm dead and I can't, someone come back to D1 stuff and see whether tom was wolf reading but not voting dead wolves because it's a flag (and obviously if he flips wolf later on that's where you should start looking for partners).
I'm not currently wolf reading him, but, just in case.
I'll quote her post here for you. Will comment more on tom specifically in a bit.
You still brushed Gemma off. All you did was provide posts. No explanation whatsoever.
Why are you asking me questions I have answered already?
KJ doesn’t have any recent scum meta that I am aware of.
I had the same idea, but the total lack of progression in his read on me and overly stubbornness to not budge it is very un-him. Town!KJ re-evaluates and is a lot less sure of himself.
So to answer your question: I don’t know his scum meta, but what he is doing here does not look like his town meta (apart from pure post count).