@rhand: your role and Vaimes are nothing alike. As claimed I think they coexist reasonably.
I think rhands is slightly more likely to be scum than Vaimes given the inherently anti townness that was not required to be in the claim. Vaimes could have not claimed to steal from others for instance.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Also Rhand, if you got Tom's ability toNight, you wouldn't be able to use it until n4. So claiming tomorrow wouldn't have allowed you to have stopped a kill prior to claim.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I am Hades, town corpse mimic.
I am basically the backup.
Each night I can target a seasonal ability of a dead player. I get the ability and it changes to the current season.
I had no target N1 and N2.
I can take one of tom’s seasonals toNight.
I don’t believe there’s 2 roles in town that take abilities from people. That would make this setup extremely swingy. Ergo, I don’t think Vaimes can be town.
@Vaimes: Something I suddenly wonder about: when you have done an exchange, will that influence the wording of the flip?
The reason I didn’t want to claim is that I could have potentially stopped the NK with tom’s jailer ability.
Hmm, sorry, I don’t entirely understand the issue here, either. Vaimes takes roles from living people, while you take from dead people. And I feel like your role would help to reduce swing - it decreases the negative impact of strong town PRs dying early, right?
There is some interesting anti-synergy between your claim and the janitored scum kill.
Can you use an ability in the same night that you take it? For example, if you took tom’s jailing tonight (a fall night), would you have to wait until the next fall night before you could use it?
Are you limited to taking from Town players?
Also, if you were tracked, would it return the dead player you took the role from?
By anti-synergy I mean that if you are town, the ability for scum to janitor a flip is a straight nerf to your backup abilities. If you are mafia... I was going to say that it forces an interesting decision between janitoring someone unclaimed and leaving their flip open for you to take from. But that’s kind of a weird angle, and probably quite swingy.
KCC, you still have one bus drive shot remaining, right? Was there a reason you didn’t use it last night?
The ability will match the current season and I can use it the same Night. My role says nothing about town or scum abilities, so I’m sure I can target both. Which would’ve been awesome if we had lynched that Daykill before it got activated if it’s seasonal.
The interaction between my role and that role is slick design.
@KJ: I disagree on Vaimes. Having both of us taking abilities creates a lot of possible power staying in the game.
What do you mean with Vaimes not having to claim he takes the abilities? As far as I understand, the merchant clearly states that it is a trade. And Axel, if he’s town, could find out that Vaimes has the abilities.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I meant that Vaimes could have totally stolen an ability without claiming it and no one would have known that he got it. If his ability works like I think it does anyway.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I’m thinking of the scenario where both me and Vaimes are town.
I could dig up powerful skills we lost, Pass them to Vaimes for bulletproof vests and Dkings keeps bodyguarding Vaimes.
The only way for scum to interfere with that is get rid of dkings, then Vaimes. By then I have enough bulletproof vests to never die.
Meanwhile Vaimes has an arsenal of useful stuff that he can use. He can even block the kill on dkings one Night with tom’s ability.
And that is with the assumption there are no protectives unclaimed, which would make it even more OP.
I mean maybe the mod didn’t think about all possible scenarios, but I severely doubt this combo exists.
@Asta
I mean I don't hate that post, but "if Keldeo gets the lynch, we can better dissect the wagon!" holds true for any wagon
anyways I like when you are more aggressive
Idk how it changes now, but back before when Keldeo had heat, it felt like nobody was defending him
I had also noticed that no one appears to be defending Keldeo at all, which is probably a thing.
My game state view right now is:
Neutral: Vaimes
mafia: Keldeo, Axel, ?? (? = Proph/Silver/KJ/Last)
town: everyone else
Vaimes - Neutral
Proph - Neutral
1 or 2 other neutrals
No scumteam
That's why this game is such an absolute PitA
There's something I don't like about this... it could be tongue-in-cheek, but there is nothing in the post that indicates it is and not only do we know from the game rules that the scumteam has day chat, but it's been discussed in-game multiple times. This feels really disingenious.
I *AM* protecting you, but there is definitely nothing in my role PM about mod confirmation of my ability. I just double-checked to make sure I didn't miss it. Is this a specific Oberon/Titania interaction? Can you provide some more clarify on what you were told?
So, per the rules of the game, I'm gonna paraphrase the message because direct quoting/screenshotting is a modkillable offense!
A Fairy showed up and told me Queen Titania is going to protect me and I shouldn't fear death.
This is super weird, there is nothing in my role PM about this. Do you have some kind of ascetic ability?
@Everyone, did anyone target Asta with some kind of ability that made him an ascetic?
Or is this a Titania/Oberon interaction? Like I wonder if you target me with something if I will receive a similar notification?
And another question: Do you have "Fairy" in your role name?
I’m thinking of the scenario where both me and Vaimes are town.
I could dig up powerful skills we lost, Pass them to Vaimes for bulletproof vests and Dkings keeps bodyguarding Vaimes.
The only way for scum to interfere with that is get rid of dkings, then Vaimes. By then I have enough bulletproof vests to never die.
Meanwhile Vaimes has an arsenal of useful stuff that he can use. He can even block the kill on dkings one Night with tom’s ability.
And that is with the assumption there are no protectives unclaimed, which would make it even more OP.
I mean maybe the mod didn’t think about all possible scenarios, but I severely doubt this combo exists.
I'm pretty sure Vaimes said he can only trade each item once?
Regarding Rhand and his claim... he pushed Nacho at EoD on D1 *and* wanted him dead D2. Considering Nacho claimed vanilla after changing the season on D1, I don't see any scum motivation in pushing him when he presumably didn't have an ability to copy? If anything, I would think Rhand would have jumped on me D1 if he was scum.
Some of Axel's thingy felt more like he was writing it for us instead of the mod, if that makes sense.
[snip]
The repeated "as far as I know"s are weird? Like, this is a monologue to DV. He knows it's from what Axel knows. And if we don't have a plan, as far as he knew, then why didn't he try to find out? If I was monologueing there, I would have been like "need to look through the eod/Vaimes posts to see if there was a plan" not just randomly assume something. We had a multi day Night phase, why not use that time to figure it out if you don't know? "It is probably better than a random shot though," is this summation to the paragraph that isn't really needed? Feels like it was just put in there to help justify himself now. Also, why is it "as far as /we/ know." Who's we? He's just talking to himself and DV, and DV can't be included in that we. And what's with the "the Town"? The issue is figuring out whether individual townies or scum as a group would target someone, looking at who Town as a group might target doesn't make sense. And why didn't he talk about the obvious use of his powers, which is to target someone kind of random, and then keep it in his pocket later if someone claims to have targeted them when no one did?
I kind of like the typo in the second to last line, makes it less likely than he ran this by a scumteam, probably.
I don't really know Axel well enough to say this is definitely scummy for him. It just feels weird and manipulative.
Specifically, I very much agree that Axel's post looks like it was written specifically for him to post in this thread, which completely negates any sort of claim of genuineness contained within.
This is where I'm at as well. I mentioned this before, but it reminded me of another game I went back and checked. In summary: Huntzilla and I were teammates in Big Red Button, and he posted this huge rant about Seppel always thinking he's scum in the lynch QT that I cited in the game thread as a reason I thought he was town. Then he went and actually posted the rant ITT. It was so manufactured and manipulative that I could not believe the town just ignored it. Axel's few posts since have also kinda felt like he's waiting for heat to die down.
And then there is the weird "Fairy" thing someone pointed out. My role name does not have "Fairy" in it, but my character is most certainly a fairy. Interested to hear from Asta on this as well.
Vote Axelrod
Also, an aside: I skipped over the Last/KCC slapfight. Is it worth my time to actually read it?
I’m thinking of the scenario where both me and Vaimes are town.
I could dig up powerful skills we lost, Pass them to Vaimes for bulletproof vests and Dkings keeps bodyguarding Vaimes.
The only way for scum to interfere with that is get rid of dkings, then Vaimes. By then I have enough bulletproof vests to never die.
Meanwhile Vaimes has an arsenal of useful stuff that he can use. He can even block the kill on dkings one Night with tom’s ability.
And that is with the assumption there are no protectives unclaimed, which would make it even more OP.
I mean maybe the mod didn’t think about all possible scenarios, but I severely doubt this combo exists.
Uh, I thought Vaimes could only hand out one of each item.
Feels like a specifically Titania/Oberon action tbh but who knows? Anyways, no, I've not been labelled Fairy. Dunno what to think about that.
Hades, huh. Corpse mangling sounds like it could be useful for town or scum. Not sure where to fall there.
Following the possibility of an Axelrod train and I'm fine with it. I'll see where things head to see if it's necessary to jump off. Rhand is still a perfectly solid lynch at this juncture.
Feels like a specifically Titania/Oberon action tbh but who knows? Anyways, no, I've not been labelled Fairy. Dunno what to think about that.
Hades, huh. Corpse mangling sounds like it could be useful for town or scum. Not sure where to fall there.
Following the possibility of an Axelrod train and I'm fine with it. I'll see where things head to see if it's necessary to jump off. Rhand is still a perfectly solid lynch at this juncture.
This is so weird. Also, more below on the Fairy thing.
Rhand's claim itself is pretty NAI. Like you said, it would be a useful role for either alignment.
I was going to say that the people who are hiding things about their roles (Vaimes/Fulcrum/Rhand/someone else?) are not doing anyone any favors in terms of figuring stuff out, but it appears Rhand at least has now full-claimed?
I'm going to look at that later. I've actually been trying to review him for awhile and I have notes.
It feels like a lot of my concerns come from *apparent* philosophical disagreements about how to play/what things mean. For instance, when he says:
With that pocket remark, Fulcrum being scum without Vezok being a buddy would be very strange. Why would scum ever confess pocketing to town?
I want to roll my eyes and say "really?" Exactly how naive are you? And that I don't think Rhand is that naive.
Or this:
Then you explain me why scum!Vaimes would ever tell town!Grape to go and read all his own posts in a vacuum. Grape is a good player. Making him ISO yourself when you’re scum is a completely needless risk.
Which seems like a completely trivial thing (to me) for someone to do as scum. In fact, it might be more likely for scum to brush off a comment with "go read my posts" than not. And again I'm going, does Rhand really believe this?
He says:
I think Nacho is scum. His reason for changing to summer is very weak and then we get that daykill. I think whoever did that daykill was a lynch candidate and Nacho went yolo with the season change
And my reaction was just opposite. I thought whoever had that daykill was totally not in jeopardy and just waiting until late in the day to fire it off because they could.
His analysis of Vaimes claim:
If the ability would’ve worked on Vez, he would probably have joined the chat with whoever the partner is and outed him to scum.
And he would’ve closed mason chat, which is pretty big.
And if he knew he can’t take a passive, he didn’t give a BP vest to someone he would maybe have to kill later.
I see only mafia gain and no town gain in targeting Vez
Makes no sense to me. I was having trouble believing that Vaimes believed that he could get some kind of a Mason ability from targeting Vez, but this is totally different. It seems almost less likely to me that a scum with Vaimes' ability, targeting Vez would get a Neighborizor Chat out of it and "closed the mason chat." That's just wild, illogical spec. to me.
Then there are the times he plays in a way that I just wouldn't and I don't think is correct.
I’m going to ignore my instinct and let KJ slide for now. Too many of my townreads are calling this v/v.
I just don't think this way. I'm not saying I can't be persuaded I'm wrong, but I don't abandon a read because "my current townreads" seem to disagree.
Then he said this:
If there’s anything post #300 has taught me for this game, it is that there’s no point in long explanations for my reads. It costs a lot of energy to write that all out and all it got me was flak.
Which is like a very scum response to me. And I say that as someone who often gets flack after posting a big read list.
There's a few more things I'll put in another post. None of this is, like, super-incriminating. It's just...wrong? And I think Rhand's a pretty good player and shouldn't be this wrong?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If I am strictly looking at where Rhand's votes have gone this game, it's:
Me (wrong)
Vezok (Mason? Unclaimed at that point)
Killjoy (my towniest read? And the reason here is that Rhand didn't like that Killjoy was saying he thought he had a read Rhand when he's (apparently) been wrong about Rhand a lot in the past)
Grape (Other Mason? Also was unclaimed at that point)
Me again (wrong)
Nacho (wrong)
Vaimes
Keldeo (and this is at a time when Keldeo is just making stronger and stronger posts)
If the Masons are real, and my read on Killjoy is right, this isn't particularly great. The Vaimes vote might be fine? Except then the reason he came off Vaimes is weird - because he decided he thinks Vaimes is actually Neutral, despite Vaimes explicitly saying that is not true.
I realize that no one else can credit the incorrect me votes either.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I’m Mab. I hesitate to call this a fairy game given Sycorax, Prospero, Spearbhain (?), Aurora, etc. but you’d expect Mab to be Fairy and I’m not.
I hesitate to read anything into it because if Axel was actually “fairy mafia watcher” or something, why not just say he was “town watcher” and not include the fairy?
That Rhand post about Vaimes that Axel just quoted is interesting in italics because he seemed pretty sure of it (that was late day 1 iirc?) but then flipped on Vaimes when Vaimes claimed day 2, but then also grape claimed later day 2?
The posts he made hinting about his role/ability seem reasonably consistent. In as much as he said, on D1:
I’m against not lynching for role related reasons.
Reasonable for someone with a gravedigger-type ability. Not that it can't be a scum abilty, but he's limiting his later claiming possibility to some extant.
Also, Vaimes needs to die
I think that's right after Vaimes claimed, so that's at least consistent with what he says later.
I have doubts Vaimes’ role can co-exist with mine in town,
What is out there about my role is that there is a slight overlap with Vaimes which I don’t consider strong enough to actually counterclaim, so I won’t,
Are similar. I'm not assessing whether this is a reasonable belief for Rhand to actually have though. I haven't thought it through yet.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
The fact that no one else who is a "Fairy" character has got "Fairy" in their role-name is somewhat interesting. But I'm not sure where people are thinking this is some kind of point against me? You think I'm lying about this? And I threw in an extra word for zero reason? Or, you think that the people who have "Fairy" in their role-names (regardless of whether their characters are, in fact, Fairies) are the scum? I don't even see the angle there.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Huh. I’m not sure how he got from slight overlap and doubts to being more sure, then? I’ll look more into Rhand’s Vaimes progression when I get back.
Also, dkings, if you have time could you give a quick update on where your reads are? Where are your strongest leads or scumreads?
Axel, I’m not holding it as a point against you, for pretty much that reason. I brought it up just because I was curious and it was sticking in my mind. Can I ask how you feel about Proph?
I am Hades, town corpse mimic.
I am basically the backup.
Each night I can target a seasonal ability of a dead player. I get the ability and it changes to the current season.
I had no target N1 and N2.
I can take one of tom’s seasonals toNight.
I don’t believe there’s 2 roles in town that take abilities from people. That would make this setup extremely swingy. Ergo, I don’t think Vaimes can be town.
@Vaimes: Something I suddenly wonder about: when you have done an exchange, will that influence the wording of the flip?
The reason I didn’t want to claim is that I could have potentially stopped the NK with tom’s jailer ability.
The ability will match the current season and I can use it the same Night. My role says nothing about town or scum abilities, so I’m sure I can target both. Which would’ve been awesome if we had lynched that Daykill before it got activated if it’s seasonal.
The interaction between my role and that role is slick design.
@KJ: I disagree on Vaimes. Having both of us taking abilities creates a lot of possible power staying in the game.
What do you mean with Vaimes not having to claim he takes the abilities? As far as I understand, the merchant clearly states that it is a trade. And Axel, if he’s town, could find out that Vaimes has the abilities.
Initial impressions: really strong? The whole limitation of this game is the seasonal thing and you just ignore that. You get whatever ability you want, and it just changes so it works immediately. And it's unlimited and reusable. That's quite nice. Maybe too nice.
Yes, someone needs to be dead. But it works on both Town and Mafia. Like, if I was dead, we would just have a permanent Tracker without any of the stupid restrictions I have. You just get my good ability every time.
I'm not sure about his apparent disbelief that this role couldn't co-exist with Vaime's claimed role. This is because they are both "abilities that take abilities from people." Except not exactly. Vaimes is "trading" one thing for another. And you are copying a dead role and not "taking" anything at all. So I'm questioning the immediate suspicion for those given reasons.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
You can ask, but I don't have a real good read there yet. I don't like his lack of posting. Quite a bit actually. And I have issues with the role as claimed because it seems bad and also needlessly confusing.
Also, Axel, what is “stronger” about my current posts to you? I feel like I have been doing similar stuff this whole game.
Well, I'm not sure I can quantify that except you're posting more now, and maybe more pointedly, and this is getting to a crunch time, so, that feels right to me. And your not saying dumb things, which always helps.
And independently of Rhand’s claim, how do you feel about Vaimes, and fulcrum?
I feel like they are both withholding information, which I don't like. The fact Fulcrum is now using this withheld information to try and argue for my lynch is even worse. But it's hard to assess without knowing what it is. (I mean, the conclusion is wrong, but how reasonable is it for her to have that position?) I felt like some of Fulcrum's other posting was...fine? I haven't done a deep dive though.
Vaimes appears to be saying he can't explain some things, upon risk of losing his ability, which also feels very wrong. I want to say Rhand/Vaimes aren't scum together because of how they have been interacting.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
And from the way his claim seems to be phrased, it would remain a seasonal ability, so only usable 1/4 of the time. Not permanent.
I meant "Watch" ability. derf. Same point.
And I'm reading Rhand's claim as he changes the ability he targets so that it becomes usable in whatever season it currently is, and he can therefore use it immediately. Am I reading that wrong?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
And from the way his claim seems to be phrased, it would remain a seasonal ability, so only usable 1/4 of the time. Not permanent.
I meant "Watch" ability. derf. Same point.
And I'm reading Rhand's claim as he changes the ability he targets so that it becomes usable in whatever season it currently is, and he can therefore use it immediately. Am I reading that wrong?
No, he said that interpretation was right. I think I understand what you are getting at.
Rhand, can you take the same ability multiple times?
Rhand's follow-up here is a bit weird, he laments not lunching the daykiller before the ability got used but we don't have any indication that the ability was only 1-shot, it could easily be 1/summer or something... could be TMI pretty easily, could also just be a bad assumption.
If we're going to say Rhand and Vaimes are a dichotomy, though, I think Rhand's role is wolfier.
Yeah... I think Rhand is a hit, would be okay moving to KCC or ~maaaybe Axelrod, though I'm still mulling over some fulcrum stuff. Mainly struggling with the idea that she tried to CC him on D1 with only her partial role, got pushback on that from me specifically for her CC being weak, and then she just dropped it but is now trying to do it again after saying I might be a wolf because I gave her that pushback. Idk.
Rhand's follow-up here is a bit weird, he laments not lunching the daykiller before the ability got used but we don't have any indication that the ability was only 1-shot, it could easily be 1/summer or something... could be TMI pretty easily, could also just be a bad assumption.
If we're going to say Rhand and Vaimes are a dichotomy, though, I think Rhand's role is wolfier.
Yeah... I think Rhand is a hit, would be okay moving to KCC or ~maaaybe Axelrod, though I'm still mulling over some fulcrum stuff. Mainly struggling with the idea that she tried to CC him on D1 with only her partial role, got pushback on that from me specifically for her CC being weak, and then she just dropped it but is now trying to do it again after saying I might be a wolf because I gave her that pushback. Idk.
To clarify, the difference is between "fulcrum and Axel's are different enough to potentially both be town," which I agree with, and "town doesn't have enough imvestigative power without Axel's role, therefore he is town," which is just wrong.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Rhand attacked Killjoy on the basis that Killjoy always misreads him, Killjoy should know this, and, therefore, Killjoy should be much more hesitant about reads on him than he was appearing.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If vaimes is a wolf, then fulcrum is most certainly hard defending his buddy because 1, contrary to what I had said before, because fulcrum knows Vaimes, she apparently taught vaimes everything she knows, so like she shouldn't be that wrong
If this was any other case I would say no wolf plays like that, outside maybe me because I lack the ability to not TMI reads
Rhands push thinking back feels somewhat forced, so I'll happily vote there
Can't recall if I said this before but I'm still having doubts that wolf! Proph didn't read through the thread and see Dks and Asta mechanical interactions before dropping his vote
I am Hades, town corpse mimic.
I am basically the backup.
Each night I can target a seasonal ability of a dead player. I get the ability and it changes to the current season.
I had no target N1 and N2.
I can take one of tom’s seasonals toNight.
I don’t believe there’s 2 roles in town that take abilities from people. That would make this setup extremely swingy. Ergo, I don’t think Vaimes can be town.
@Vaimes: Something I suddenly wonder about: when you have done an exchange, will that influence the wording of the flip?
The reason I didn’t want to claim is that I could have potentially stopped the NK with tom’s jailer ability.
My flip will include abilities I've acquired, and if someone buys an item from me, they will flip with it.
I exchange abilities. You take them. My role is non-seasonal. Once I trade an item, it's gone, I can't make more. If I reveal more about my role, not only do I become vanilla, but anyone who has an item from me loses it as well. I haven't asked if the item would also disappear from the person's role PM upon flipping.
I'll probably full claim once I've gotten ride of the track and the vest. The messenger ability is worse than worthless.
I think it's a little wild that whatever Janitor ability is out there apparently blocks Rhand from copying Gemma's role. Don't know if that's typical for a Janitor ability.
I think it's a little wild that whatever Janitor ability is out there apparently blocks Rhand from copying Gemma's role. Don't know if that's typical for a Janitor ability.
what? Maybe the day kill itself is janitored? What did a miss in regards to Rhand?
I think it's a little wild that whatever Janitor ability is out there apparently blocks Rhand from copying Gemma's role. Don't know if that's typical for a Janitor ability.
I mean it's not that wild if Rhand has to name an ability to steal from the dead?
Honestly I'm leaving the mechanical stuff to other people since it just taints my reads
Someone is obviously lying about their role, so who is even left to claim, and the day killer is still in claimed
Who was it that Rhand attacked very early over what he thought was a malicious push on him?
Was it vaimes or killjoy?
Keldeo and Killjoy haven't claimed at all from what I remember. I have substantial parts of my role unclaimed (I know Proph's Spring ability name but haven't revealed how or anything else about my role)
Fulcrum and Vaimes have mostly claimed but redacted parts of their role
Of the people who claim to have full claimed:
Axel probably doesn't have room for the daykill in his role and it mirrors mine in ways I think make it True
Same with KCC, I think her claim is True regardless of her alignment and she probably doesn't have the daykill
Dkingsland's bodyguard is confirmed by Asta and the lack of additional kills means there probably isn't a lot of extra kill power, making him basically useless to wolves
Asta is a doublevoter which is a pretty strong passive role, but as the Summer King there's flavor consideration I suppose -- it's ~possible that Asta and dkings made the whole thing up to clear each other but I think it's more likely that dkings is just town given his earlier crumb and maaaaybe Asta is a wolf who made the message up. Pretty tinfoily though.
It would be pretty weird for Rhand to be a universal back up and have the summer day kill
I doubt you have it with the Dreaming God role which is more or less confirmed by the Kingmaker yesterday if nothing else
Proph almost definitely doesn't have it regardless of what the orbs do, role is too complicated to also have a day kill stapled to it
That leaves Grape and Vezok, who would have to be lying and both wolves for one of them to have it.
I'm... strongly considering a mass claim rn and trying to set it up so we can find who it is. Almost everyone is fullclaimed with roles I believe regardless of their alignment and claiming my role isn't the ~worst given the set up is what it seems to be.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@rhand: your role and Vaimes are nothing alike. As claimed I think they coexist reasonably.
I think rhands is slightly more likely to be scum than Vaimes given the inherently anti townness that was not required to be in the claim. Vaimes could have not claimed to steal from others for instance.
Hmm, sorry, I don’t entirely understand the issue here, either. Vaimes takes roles from living people, while you take from dead people. And I feel like your role would help to reduce swing - it decreases the negative impact of strong town PRs dying early, right?
There is some interesting anti-synergy between your claim and the janitored scum kill.
Can you use an ability in the same night that you take it? For example, if you took tom’s jailing tonight (a fall night), would you have to wait until the next fall night before you could use it?
Are you limited to taking from Town players?
Also, if you were tracked, would it return the dead player you took the role from?
KCC, you still have one bus drive shot remaining, right? Was there a reason you didn’t use it last night?
The interaction between my role and that role is slick design.
@KJ: I disagree on Vaimes. Having both of us taking abilities creates a lot of possible power staying in the game.
What do you mean with Vaimes not having to claim he takes the abilities? As far as I understand, the merchant clearly states that it is a trade. And Axel, if he’s town, could find out that Vaimes has the abilities.
You gain full uses of these abilities, not one shots?
Wasn’t it Axel that can see the name of seasonal abilities?
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No. I had no targets the first two Nights.
I couldn’t target Gemma because I couldn’t see abilities to target and Nacho didn’t have anything to take.
I could dig up powerful skills we lost, Pass them to Vaimes for bulletproof vests and Dkings keeps bodyguarding Vaimes.
The only way for scum to interfere with that is get rid of dkings, then Vaimes. By then I have enough bulletproof vests to never die.
Meanwhile Vaimes has an arsenal of useful stuff that he can use. He can even block the kill on dkings one Night with tom’s ability.
And that is with the assumption there are no protectives unclaimed, which would make it even more OP.
I mean maybe the mod didn’t think about all possible scenarios, but I severely doubt this combo exists.
I had also noticed that no one appears to be defending Keldeo at all, which is probably a thing.
Since they are supposedly various colors, that's probably not the case.
Although... did Nacho ever actually confirm what color the orb he received was?
There's something I don't like about this... it could be tongue-in-cheek, but there is nothing in the post that indicates it is and not only do we know from the game rules that the scumteam has day chat, but it's been discussed in-game multiple times. This feels really disingenious.
This is super weird, there is nothing in my role PM about this. Do you have some kind of ascetic ability?
@Everyone, did anyone target Asta with some kind of ability that made him an ascetic?
Or is this a Titania/Oberon interaction? Like I wonder if you target me with something if I will receive a similar notification?
And another question: Do you have "Fairy" in your role name?
I'm pretty sure Vaimes said he can only trade each item once?
Regarding Rhand and his claim... he pushed Nacho at EoD on D1 *and* wanted him dead D2. Considering Nacho claimed vanilla after changing the season on D1, I don't see any scum motivation in pushing him when he presumably didn't have an ability to copy? If anything, I would think Rhand would have jumped on me D1 if he was scum.
And, finally...
This is where I'm at as well. I mentioned this before, but it reminded me of another game I went back and checked. In summary: Huntzilla and I were teammates in Big Red Button, and he posted this huge rant about Seppel always thinking he's scum in the lynch QT that I cited in the game thread as a reason I thought he was town. Then he went and actually posted the rant ITT. It was so manufactured and manipulative that I could not believe the town just ignored it. Axel's few posts since have also kinda felt like he's waiting for heat to die down.
And then there is the weird "Fairy" thing someone pointed out. My role name does not have "Fairy" in it, but my character is most certainly a fairy. Interested to hear from Asta on this as well.
Vote Axelrod
Also, an aside: I skipped over the Last/KCC slapfight. Is it worth my time to actually read it?
Uh, I thought Vaimes could only hand out one of each item.
@DK
I can only find him saying the items are one-shot for the bp and track and two-shot for the message.
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Hades, huh. Corpse mangling sounds like it could be useful for town or scum. Not sure where to fall there.
Following the possibility of an Axelrod train and I'm fine with it. I'll see where things head to see if it's necessary to jump off. Rhand is still a perfectly solid lynch at this juncture.
I kind of want to say Rhand considering that weird edge case interaction with his conception of Vaimes’ ability is towny?
Rhand, can your action be tracked? Sorry if you answered and I missed it.
Also, what’s your ability name?
I found it. It's pretty clear.
---------------------------------
This is so weird. Also, more below on the Fairy thing.
Rhand's claim itself is pretty NAI. Like you said, it would be a useful role for either alignment.
Keldeo, it was you who pointed out the "Fairy" part of Axel's claim, right? Will you tell us your character name?
I'm going to look at that later. I've actually been trying to review him for awhile and I have notes.
It feels like a lot of my concerns come from *apparent* philosophical disagreements about how to play/what things mean. For instance, when he says:
I want to roll my eyes and say "really?" Exactly how naive are you? And that I don't think Rhand is that naive.
Or this:
Which seems like a completely trivial thing (to me) for someone to do as scum. In fact, it might be more likely for scum to brush off a comment with "go read my posts" than not. And again I'm going, does Rhand really believe this?
He says: And my reaction was just opposite. I thought whoever had that daykill was totally not in jeopardy and just waiting until late in the day to fire it off because they could.
His analysis of Vaimes claim:
Makes no sense to me. I was having trouble believing that Vaimes believed that he could get some kind of a Mason ability from targeting Vez, but this is totally different. It seems almost less likely to me that a scum with Vaimes' ability, targeting Vez would get a Neighborizor Chat out of it and "closed the mason chat." That's just wild, illogical spec. to me.
Then there are the times he plays in a way that I just wouldn't and I don't think is correct.
I just don't think this way. I'm not saying I can't be persuaded I'm wrong, but I don't abandon a read because "my current townreads" seem to disagree.
Then he said this:
Which is like a very scum response to me. And I say that as someone who often gets flack after posting a big read list.
There's a few more things I'll put in another post. None of this is, like, super-incriminating. It's just...wrong? And I think Rhand's a pretty good player and shouldn't be this wrong?
Me (wrong)
Vezok (Mason? Unclaimed at that point)
Killjoy (my towniest read? And the reason here is that Rhand didn't like that Killjoy was saying he thought he had a read Rhand when he's (apparently) been wrong about Rhand a lot in the past)
Grape (Other Mason? Also was unclaimed at that point)
Me again (wrong)
Nacho (wrong)
Vaimes
Keldeo (and this is at a time when Keldeo is just making stronger and stronger posts)
If the Masons are real, and my read on Killjoy is right, this isn't particularly great. The Vaimes vote might be fine? Except then the reason he came off Vaimes is weird - because he decided he thinks Vaimes is actually Neutral, despite Vaimes explicitly saying that is not true.
I realize that no one else can credit the incorrect me votes either.
I hesitate to read anything into it because if Axel was actually “fairy mafia watcher” or something, why not just say he was “town watcher” and not include the fairy?
That Rhand post about Vaimes that Axel just quoted is interesting in italics because he seemed pretty sure of it (that was late day 1 iirc?) but then flipped on Vaimes when Vaimes claimed day 2, but then also grape claimed later day 2?
The posts he made hinting about his role/ability seem reasonably consistent. In as much as he said, on D1:
Reasonable for someone with a gravedigger-type ability. Not that it can't be a scum abilty, but he's limiting his later claiming possibility to some extant.
I think that's right after Vaimes claimed, so that's at least consistent with what he says later.
Are similar. I'm not assessing whether this is a reasonable belief for Rhand to actually have though. I haven't thought it through yet.
The fact that no one else who is a "Fairy" character has got "Fairy" in their role-name is somewhat interesting. But I'm not sure where people are thinking this is some kind of point against me? You think I'm lying about this? And I threw in an extra word for zero reason? Or, you think that the people who have "Fairy" in their role-names (regardless of whether their characters are, in fact, Fairies) are the scum? I don't even see the angle there.
Also, dkings, if you have time could you give a quick update on where your reads are? Where are your strongest leads or scumreads?
Axel, I’m not holding it as a point against you, for pretty much that reason. I brought it up just because I was curious and it was sticking in my mind. Can I ask how you feel about Proph?
And independently of Rhand’s claim, how do you feel about Vaimes, and fulcrum?
Yes, someone needs to be dead. But it works on both Town and Mafia. Like, if I was dead, we would just have a permanent Tracker without any of the stupid restrictions I have. You just get my good ability every time.
I'm not sure about his apparent disbelief that this role couldn't co-exist with Vaime's claimed role. This is because they are both "abilities that take abilities from people." Except not exactly. Vaimes is "trading" one thing for another. And you are copying a dead role and not "taking" anything at all. So I'm questioning the immediate suspicion for those given reasons.
And from the way his claim seems to be phrased, it would remain a seasonal ability, so only usable 1/4 of the time. Not permanent.
I feel like they are both withholding information, which I don't like. The fact Fulcrum is now using this withheld information to try and argue for my lynch is even worse. But it's hard to assess without knowing what it is. (I mean, the conclusion is wrong, but how reasonable is it for her to have that position?) I felt like some of Fulcrum's other posting was...fine? I haven't done a deep dive though.
Vaimes appears to be saying he can't explain some things, upon risk of losing his ability, which also feels very wrong. I want to say Rhand/Vaimes aren't scum together because of how they have been interacting.
And I'm reading Rhand's claim as he changes the ability he targets so that it becomes usable in whatever season it currently is, and he can therefore use it immediately. Am I reading that wrong?
Rhand, can you take the same ability multiple times?
Rhand's follow-up here is a bit weird, he laments not lunching the daykiller before the ability got used but we don't have any indication that the ability was only 1-shot, it could easily be 1/summer or something... could be TMI pretty easily, could also just be a bad assumption.
If we're going to say Rhand and Vaimes are a dichotomy, though, I think Rhand's role is wolfier.
Yeah... I think Rhand is a hit, would be okay moving to KCC or ~maaaybe Axelrod, though I'm still mulling over some fulcrum stuff. Mainly struggling with the idea that she tried to CC him on D1 with only her partial role, got pushback on that from me specifically for her CC being weak, and then she just dropped it but is now trying to do it again after saying I might be a wolf because I gave her that pushback. Idk.
To clarify, the difference is between "fulcrum and Axel's are different enough to potentially both be town," which I agree with, and "town doesn't have enough imvestigative power without Axel's role, therefore he is town," which is just wrong.
Who was it that Rhand attacked very early over what he thought was a malicious push on him?
Was it vaimes or killjoy?
If this was any other case I would say no wolf plays like that, outside maybe me because I lack the ability to not TMI reads
Rhands push thinking back feels somewhat forced, so I'll happily vote there
Can't recall if I said this before but I'm still having doubts that wolf! Proph didn't read through the thread and see Dks and Asta mechanical interactions before dropping his vote
Feels uninformed
I exchange abilities. You take them. My role is non-seasonal. Once I trade an item, it's gone, I can't make more. If I reveal more about my role, not only do I become vanilla, but anyone who has an item from me loses it as well. I haven't asked if the item would also disappear from the person's role PM upon flipping.
I'll probably full claim once I've gotten ride of the track and the vest. The messenger ability is worse than worthless.
Honestly I'm leaving the mechanical stuff to other people since it just taints my reads
Fulcrum and Vaimes have mostly claimed but redacted parts of their role
Of the people who claim to have full claimed:
Axel probably doesn't have room for the daykill in his role and it mirrors mine in ways I think make it True
Same with KCC, I think her claim is True regardless of her alignment and she probably doesn't have the daykill
Dkingsland's bodyguard is confirmed by Asta and the lack of additional kills means there probably isn't a lot of extra kill power, making him basically useless to wolves
Asta is a doublevoter which is a pretty strong passive role, but as the Summer King there's flavor consideration I suppose -- it's ~possible that Asta and dkings made the whole thing up to clear each other but I think it's more likely that dkings is just town given his earlier crumb and maaaaybe Asta is a wolf who made the message up. Pretty tinfoily though.
It would be pretty weird for Rhand to be a universal back up and have the summer day kill
I doubt you have it with the Dreaming God role which is more or less confirmed by the Kingmaker yesterday if nothing else
Proph almost definitely doesn't have it regardless of what the orbs do, role is too complicated to also have a day kill stapled to it
That leaves Grape and Vezok, who would have to be lying and both wolves for one of them to have it.
I'm... strongly considering a mass claim rn and trying to set it up so we can find who it is. Almost everyone is fullclaimed with roles I believe regardless of their alignment and claiming my role isn't the ~worst given the set up is what it seems to be.
The Current Season is Spring.
With 14 Alive it takes 10 to lynch.
So like I think I am more inclined to believe someone is lying?
But yes at this point a mass claim doesn't hurt