Fulcrum, could you link/point to a town and a scum game (or better yet, multiple of both) from Vaimes where he demonstrates that inability to put himself in the other team’s shoes role-wise? I think so far this game, there’s been people disagreeing on what/how exactly Vaimes’ meta means/is/applies, so if you could show me concrete examples that would make understanding your towncase easier.
Idk why we are debating on killing keldeo over anyone else, like there is at least 3 other mafia, and if keldeo is town we just lose someone who looks like they are trying to understand players' mindsets and the game
I wouldn't cry over Vaimes or fulcrum. I just don't trust Vaimes, though that is primarily gut-based because his behavior and night action feel off. Fulcrum seemed really convinced her role couldn't co-exist with Axelrod's but then just completely dropped it.
Two things:
1. If you are choosing between killing Vaimes and me, kill me first, and then don't kill him. Do not ignore my read on him after my death.
2. Look, I'm not an expert on how this site's approach to roles has changed over time. Base on the reactions, and other claims, I may have overestimated how close my role is to Axel's. I still firmly believe the overlap in us learning Ability Names is weird. I expect it will be reevaluated later in the game, and my info will be useful at that time. Right now, I see no point in pushing Axel, as I do not have the ability to get him lynched (or to convince Vezok to lynch him) and I'm not sure if I even should.
I'm down to kill Axelrod. Tom is doing a weird thing with the votecounts where he takes the second choice as an entire vote when it should clearly be ranked voting.
Scratch Keldeo of my list and put axel there.
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Kill me then him first, if you need to choose between me and vaimes? How is this the mindset of someone who is uninformed?
Man I love mafia
What would the possible gain be for mafia for wanting to be killed before someone else?
Whats the possible gain as town for suggesting yourself over someone you dont know the alignment as?
as both alignments its dumb
but its more likely to come from a wolf with TMI than a town, unless said town is bad, and im not getting "bad vibes" from Fulcrum's posts
Fulcrum, could you link/point to a town and a scum game (or better yet, multiple of both) from Vaimes where he demonstrates that inability to put himself in the other team’s shoes role-wise? I think so far this game, there’s been people disagreeing on what/how exactly Vaimes’ meta means/is/applies, so if you could show me concrete examples that would make understanding your towncase easier.
Can't think of any specific examples, sorry. I could dig for it, but I'm not going to. Von's meta is complicated, and varies with his comfort level, so it's not surprising that people have very different ideas of it. Where I'm coming from here isn't meta, though, it's an understanding of him as a person. Would recommend asking @Vaimes about this.
Also, @Vaimes, target me tonight. Be my watchman.
@Vezok, I'd be up for doing a deep dive of Axel tomorrow or Wednesday.
Favorite shots for Vez are DK, Proph, KCC, Keldeo, and then maybe Nacho.
Still holding onto my Wisp tunnel but it's not worth resolving today. It's paining me how activity based my reads are so my goal for today if work allows it is to make some substance based scum reads.
Grape - tell me more about dk? Is it basically ~your read yesterday + his activity today?
Mmm, alright, fulcrum. I get the “strong knowledge of how this person acts” type of read, I was hoping you could tell me more. Vaimes, do you feel like that description of your play with roles matches any recent games I could take a look at?
Also, fulcrum, I asked you some more questions earlier, in that post where I also asked you to walk through the Vaimes read. Would you be able to answer those sometime soon?
Grape - tell me more about dk? Is it basically ~your read yesterday + his activity today?
Pretty much. And mentioning the second part feels dirty as I'm well aware of how insane this time of year gets. But I thought he was scum yesterday, don't necessarily believe the claim (tom is a perfect person to breadcrumb a fake protect on because when is he ever a NK?), and have seen nothing today to make me revaluate.
Wait, actually, Vaimes said he can get passive abilities, but Vezok said she /wasn’t able to give up/ the Mason ability. So Fulcrum, what makes you think that you would be give up? Is it just the fact that it’s like... less... inherent to you, because it’s seasonal?
Wisp’s 2706, btw, is a good example of a kind of read/post that I’ve seen him make as town... here it feels like he’s actually confused/incredulous why fulcrum would do this as town when I’ve seen him disbelieve how people/me could be so confident on a TR, and it’s continuous with his earlier idea that fulcrum is not paranoid enough while “how is there no paranoia” is also a sentiment I’ve seen him express near verbatim as town.
Grape - tell me more about dk? Is it basically ~your read yesterday + his activity today?
Pretty much. And mentioning the second part feels dirty as I'm well aware of how insane this time of year gets. But I thought he was scum yesterday, don't necessarily believe the claim (tom is a perfect person to breadcrumb a fake protect on because when is he ever a NK?), and have seen nothing today to make me revaluate.
Okay.
Hmm? He breadcrumbed the protect on Asta, not Tom, and he did that during spring, so it wasn’t an actual crumb for whom he was protecting.
I skimmed the linked town game a bit, he does seem pretty not-paranoid I guess
But, okay, if Keldeo is a villager who are the wolves? Even if Nacho is (and I'm far from convinced of that) there's definitely 2 more and almost certainly 3?
Like, look at this vote count (right after Nacho retracted his counterclaim)
I'm town, Gemma is dead town, Vezok is a mason, Keldeo is town (given), Killjoy is spewed town, Grape is a hard town read, dkings is town (bodyguard)
Has to be like, [Proph] + 1 in [Asta, KCC, Nacho] + 0-1 in [tom, Axel] + 1-2 in [Rhand, fulcrum, Vaimes, Last] right?
If I color in my other reads here I get something like, exactly [Proph, Rhand, Lastwhisper, Axelrod] I think? And those aren't even wolf reads just people who are ~less town~ than everyone else. Like... it's a world, don't think it's impossible from interactions and stuff. I probably need to reread the whole game, just don't really have time right now.
Hmm? He breadcrumbed the protect on Asta, not Tom, and he did that during spring, so it wasn’t an actual crumb for whom he was protecting.
Uggh now I'm going to have to dig. I was sure it was tom and the breadcrumb mentioned the Iggy Azalea lyrics. Regardless Asta as the target would be the same end newish player who is unlikely to be the target of a NK.
@Silver I don't think DK is town. And I definitely an not town reading him for the claim, why is that enough for you? Or is that a supposition you're attributing to Keldeo?
@Silver I don't think DK is town. And I definitely an not town reading him for the claim, why is that enough for you? Or is that a supposition you're attributing to Keldeo?
No, it's my own read. He breadcrumbed then claimed bodyguard and like... I dunno I guess it could be a gambit but wolf bodyguard is a pretty bad role, I'd think, so if the claim is true, he's town, and I think the claim is true based on the breadcrumb and mechanics tie-in, so.
@Silver My thought process is that the wolves have the summer day vig and fired with basically no notice and on a target they couldn't claim. So they clearly have been thinking about claims and roles and attempting to sort it out. With that in mind an easily fake claimable role like BG isn't clearing on it's own. Yes the role all lines up and feels "legit" but it's also a role that I could see multiple people inventing without too much difficulty.
@silver
Fairpoint, the likelihood that he probably gets cc'd is also high if he is a wolf
On dk I mean
As for this part BG can coexist with just about every other protective role except another BG. And protective roles have among the most to gain by staying quiet. There is a reason protectives tend to be the go to CC.
@ tom, I think based on Rhand's general cadence that he is just the type of person who phrases things in a way that makes him seem extremely sure, regardless of alignment. There's a lot of rhetoric like "x would never do this as y alignment" or "this world would be completely unreasonable" both in his posting here and in this one post he quoted to I think dkings that was from a previous game.
Does this affect your Rhand/KJ aligned read? It makes me a little skeptical... well, I guess it would point more in the direction of Rhand v/KJ w being possible, where Rhand just sounds like he is not evaluating because that's how he phrases things, and KJ is faking this Rhand tunnel that Rhand is talking about, but I don't really think KJ is a wolf.
Alternatively/in addition, could you just, like, talk for a bit about why you don't think that it is a w/v world where one of them is faking the tunnel? I don't think it's /that/ hard to fake OMGUS tunneling a villager as a wolf. Rhand spent a lot of time talking about KJ being a wolf and then just went off of him for what seems to me like kind of a thin reason, which doesn't make a ton of sense to me as either alignment really.
ok this one was definitely one of my reads most effected by the rapping and i sort of ran with something partially because it was so easy to get across...
But as the whole back and forth was happening i was really watching how they both reacted and i think it was just, like... played up enough and familiar enough (having seen the two of them do essentially *this* before) that its real, or two buddies trying to slightly play up their playstyle differences too distance.
Anyway maybe dont take it as an absolute NOT W/V
So much as a Theres really no motivation for either to bother with all that if theyre a wolf unless the other is too
And ftr, their current stance on eachother (scumread but not actually pushing both directions, iirc) is tilting the needle towards w/w *just a little
Kill me then him first, if you need to choose between me and vaimes? How is this the mindset of someone who is uninformed?
Man I love mafia
those are basically my words. About listening to fonti about vaimes if shes town.
Which
I still dont really think it is but ive seen her explanation on vaimestown and its ~alright but feels a little reachy to me/makes town vaimes out to be a bit more of a lovable idiot than he is (these days)
I still want to think about some more. If she were to flip town, of course. But if she were to flip scum is that TMI of townvaimes or forced propping up of a buddy or...
I'm down to kill Axelrod. Tom is doing a weird thing with the votecounts where he takes the second choice as an entire vote when it should clearly be ranked voting.
Scratch Keldeo of my list and put axel there.
im not meaning this to be a votecount. Just trying to force people to give opinions and keep track of them.
Anyone should feel free to correct their entry, add names, whatever
It matters, does mafia hard defend their buddy? Yes? It definitely can happen, but does it happen a lot? Most people just focus on pushing off their buddies rather than trying to convince us they are town, or they just straight up buss
If he is a wolf of course, honestly some of these mindsets are just so wrong, like even if you believe someone is town, if you are town and there is no mechanically confirmed information then you should be fighting for your life over anything else
Is there town that play bad and do this? Yes, just look at my brother.
So part of why the claim adds up to make me think dkings is town is because of how quickly the dayvig got used.
Now i know i consistently give (bad) wolves too much credit and am often fooled by scumteams that just "do *****/push buttons"
But if one wolf read towndkings claim correctly and then it became summer theyd for sure want to fire ASAP
And if dkings is a wolf that knows the impending dayvig and makes that claim (which is presumably fake in this world) i think he interacts with it a little? A "damn didnt target fast enough to die for gemma" or something.
Idk
The role fits really neatly into how im seeing the setup. But i dont actually feel any better about his posting (hes nullish and very dkings-like)
the one thing that confuses me is Grape, I can't tell if his read on me is honest or not, it feels like he knows I am town but is trying to just keep me open which in itself is weird since he will never get me lynched lol
At some points, it does feel like town!Grape paranioa, but like I still feel like him and many others in this game aren't given me an honest read, they are just shrugging me off as, "this behavior can come from either alignment from Wisp, so I'll keep him at null or below"
Yeah its like probably just town:
Vezok/Last/Axel/Silver/asta
None of this is ride or die but strong enough for what is essentially still day 1
Asta newest addition to this tier. If hes scum pocketing me... good call dude lol
mixed but positive:
kj/rhand/nacho/dkings
See kj+rhand and dkings posts above
Nacho i found his early game really towny but have liked none of {CCing > retracting/m > distracting > doing nothing day 2}
I think the only ones I can recall that gave me honest reads are Axel and Keldeo, and maybe you @Tom? Can't recall really
if youre talking abiut reads on you, ive been happily filing you as town and just saying you seem like you all game, so it wasnt me.
Grape was actually thinking through if youd retreat into <just scumreading the people whos playstyles you dont like> that seemed a decent point actually so maybe youre thinking of him
" <just scumreading the people whos playstyles you dont like>"
give or take, sure
I mean I tend to confuse my wolf reads with, maybe I just dont like how they choose to play
Vaimes meta is pretty garbage for the most part, he just plays for the tonal reads, with reads here and there that dont take much effort
I want to be like, "Ya Vaimes is town here", because of his reads, because right now, all we got is, Can Vaimes play like this at the current stage of the game as both alignments, maybe?
Fulcrum's read of Vaimes is basically, "I dont think wolf!Vaimes goes through all the effort of trying to make us believe he could steal a passive mason because its so messy"
and I honestly dont think that says much of anything in Vaimes favor
especially when overall content-wise, he has mostly nothing
even in regards to like Vezok, who I hate and like posts here and there, who is 99% of the time probably town because of his claim, gives off this feeling that he actually believes his reads and posts, which I dont get from Vaimes
I really don't get why I am being hated for my Vaimes read when Vaimes gets a safety net because of tone which is super easy to fake, when his content is so mediocre, if people don't want to think he is a wolf as of yet, that's fine, but like other than fulcrum who has given a reason why, I would like people to explain to me, why he deserves any semblance of a town read, or why he shouldn't be lynched today
if not Vaimes we should definitely be trying to lynch in the trains from the previous day since no one seems to agree on anything
like Keldeo is such bad choice since he feels like he is trying
I'm not opposed to KCC I just don't think they are the most likely hit. I'm seeing it as the every annoying and scummy "information" option. But given how polarized people are around KCC it will at least help sort people.
@Wisp I really can't expand on my reads a ton. Work has been destroying me. Keldeo is basically just sheeping Silvers wall. Proph is really just a slot that has given effectively zero, has a suspicious role (mysterious gifts raise an eyebrow), and that post tom pointed to earlier where Proph read a bunch but didn't have *anything* to say.
" <just scumreading the people whos playstyles you dont like>"
give or take, sure
I mean I tend to confuse my wolf reads with, maybe I just dont like how they choose to play
Vaimes meta is pretty garbage for the most part, he just plays for the tonal reads, with reads here and there that dont take much effort
I want to be like, "Ya Vaimes is town here", because of his reads, because right now, all we got is, Can Vaimes play like this at the current stage of the game as both alignments, maybe?
Fulcrum's read of Vaimes is basically, "I dont think wolf!Vaimes goes through all the effort of trying to make us believe he could steal a passive mason because its so messy"
and I honestly dont think that says much of anything in Vaimes favor
especially when overall content-wise, he has mostly nothing
even in regards to like Vezok, who I hate and like posts here and there, who is 99% of the time probably town because of his claim, gives off this feeling that he actually believes his reads and posts, which I dont get from Vaimes
I really don't get why I am being hated for my Vaimes read when Vaimes gets a safety net because of tone which is super easy to fake, when his content is so mediocre, if people don't want to think he is a wolf as of yet, that's fine, but like other than fulcrum who has given a reason why, I would like people to explain to me, why he deserves any semblance of a town read, or why he shouldn't be lynched today
if not Vaimes we should definitely be trying to lynch in the trains from the previous day since no one seems to agree on anything
like Keldeo is such bad choice since he feels like he is trying
KCC to me is the best choice
its not about vaimes' towniness or alignment. I dont find him towny myself, and have no idea his alignment.
What its about is you having trouble overcoming your TMI as scum (fact). And grape is suggesting that pushing <people who you dont like the way they play> could be your way of overcoming that.
Again, i dont agree and think youre town. But i thought it was a pretty interesting take from grape.
As for fonti's vaimes read. Yeah it feels forced out. But i can imagine townfonti seeing vaimes derping around his role useage and thinking hes town for it and going just a little too deep justifying it.
Not sure its more likely than scumfonti forcing a read for <whatever her reasons> and the post looking approximately the same, but both are definitely possible
Would you like to change your top shot choices? "Vaimes/fulcrum" was awhile ago
If KCC flips town, it might free up some of the suspicion on her and let us put it on her wagon because almost assuredly a couple of wolves decided to go for it. The problem is that a good set of town were definitely on the KCC wagon purely because of the "my role is kinda scummy lol" post that has been an unfortunate misstep but not REALLY alignment indicative IMO
Problem is we just don't have much movement other than the wacky daykill on Gemma, who was p much obvious town. Looking at her reads might have some info, but I dunno if wolves would be so obvious as to shoot her right as she was putting together a read on one of them?
@Silver I don't think DK is town. And I definitely an not town reading him for the claim, why is that enough for you? Or is that a supposition you're attributing to Keldeo?
Anyway the DK votes are alarming to me. So I scanned his ISO to see if they were justified by earlier stuff and they don't seem to be.
@Gemma and Nacho what am I missing? I've reas Nachos catch up series twice now and I can't point to a reason why DK was grouped with tom, Jack, and KCC. I'm seeing DK as actively townie.
Gemma, DK, Vaimes, Nacho, and Fulcrum are players I'm not interested toDay at all. They've given enough that they either impress me as generally townie without a defining moment or have a moment that gives me doubts they're scum but no overall impression. Vaimes is the closest falling out of that group mostly by peer pressure and self doubt.
Definitely tom more. Going to DK is compromise because I don't have a ton of strong thoughts and I'm running out of time. While I initially pushed back on the sterile idea it sounds a lot more reasonable now after a night's sleep.
I would do Fulcrum but going to keep my vote on DK for now.
Man, you are really starting to remind me of your D1 play in Modern. You aren't keeping your reads straight and are jumping around without giving contextual reasons for it.
You also waffled on KCC multiple times, but I don't feel like pulling up more quotes. You were basically playing follow-the-leader with your "intentions" at EoD but never moved your vote.
@kcc
Like you should've died yesterday, and now I'm stuck between your soft probably coming from town and your claim in general being wolfy as *****, how you claimed it, and it's abilities
I skimmed the linked town game a bit, he does seem pretty not-paranoid I guess
But, okay, if Keldeo is a villager who are the wolves? Even if Nacho is (and I'm far from convinced of that) there's definitely 2 more and almost certainly 3?
Like, look at this vote count (right after Nacho retracted his counterclaim)
I'm town, Gemma is dead town, Vezok is a mason, Keldeo is town (given), Killjoy is spewed town, Grape is a hard town read, dkings is town (bodyguard)
Has to be like, [Proph] + 1 in [Asta, KCC, Nacho] + 0-1 in [tom, Axel] + 1-2 in [Rhand, fulcrum, Vaimes, Last] right?
If I color in my other reads here I get something like, exactly [Proph, Rhand, Lastwhisper, Axelrod] I think? And those aren't even wolf reads just people who are ~less town~ than everyone else. Like... it's a world, don't think it's impossible from interactions and stuff. I probably need to reread the whole game, just don't really have time right now.
I guess, someone talk me to me about this lol.
I'll bite since you want to talk it out with someone, but herein lies the problem with too-early VCA: a lot depends on KCC's alignment and even then there are a couple big question marks.
If she's scum:
- HER wagon becomes pretty clear, and it's very likely pure. Axel was on her all day, there is no way that's a bus vote. Tom's D2 posts make me feel very good about him. Last was on her and jumped off after Nacho retracted the CC, but I'll be pretty damn surprised if he is scum
- MY wagon becomes a muddled mess. I'm the designated counterwagon, and there is a decent-to-high probability one of her teammates is on there with her. Frankly, no one there is off the table, and I'd say [Grape > Nacho = You > Asta].
- I'm actually very conflicted on Nacho in this world. On one hand, he did shade my claim multiple times after people started unvoting me, and he stuck to me when momentum swung back onto KCC toward EoD. But on the other hand, Rhand looks really bad if KCC flips red based on interactions, and Nacho was where he tried to push at EoD and that's quite the risky play if they are buddies since people were not happy with him and it *could* have gained traction.
- The other scum are likely Rhand and someone hanging out being useless, which would mean something like 1 of [Proph + Keldeo + Vaimes]. KJ is pretty much lock town if KCC is scum based on some early buddying, and I don't see Rhand/fulcrum being W/W and hanging out back-to-back on a secondary wagon that close to EoD.
If she's town:
- Axelrod could be a scum vote, but it's also very possible that Nacho is scum who ran the whole CC gambit to try to jam through the lynch without any of his buddies needing to pile on. This could also indicate he's on a team with lurkers/low activity players. I feel no different about Tom or Last in this world.
- My wagon isn't really any clearer, although maybe Nacho being more likely to be scum makes the other 4 look less likely?
- There are almost certainly still scum hanging out being useless, but KJ joins the potential pile.
So... basically I just spent like 20 minutes spinning my wheels to conclude there are scum somewhere.
1) The way he keeps getting upset about not enough paranoia in the thread
2) His frustration over his Vaimes read vs. everyone else who isn't scum-reading Vaimes feels real
3) He's not posting as much fluff as he did in Modern when he was scum
4) He's pushed against the grain multiple times (Me on D1, Keldeo today) when it would have been extremely easy/convenient for scum to just ride the wave, or at a minimum just leave it alone and see what happens.
Man I love mafia
Who other than mean even likes keldeo?
I'm down to kill Axelrod. Tom is doing a weird thing with the votecounts where he takes the second choice as an entire vote when it should clearly be ranked voting.
Scratch Keldeo of my list and put axel there.
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What would the possible gain be for mafia for wanting to be killed before someone else?
as both alignments its dumb
but its more likely to come from a wolf with TMI than a town, unless said town is bad, and im not getting "bad vibes" from Fulcrum's posts
Can't think of any specific examples, sorry. I could dig for it, but I'm not going to. Von's meta is complicated, and varies with his comfort level, so it's not surprising that people have very different ideas of it. Where I'm coming from here isn't meta, though, it's an understanding of him as a person. Would recommend asking @Vaimes about this.
Also, @Vaimes, target me tonight. Be my watchman.
@Vezok, I'd be up for doing a deep dive of Axel tomorrow or Wednesday.
Still holding onto my Wisp tunnel but it's not worth resolving today. It's paining me how activity based my reads are so my goal for today if work allows it is to make some substance based scum reads.
Mmm, alright, fulcrum. I get the “strong knowledge of how this person acts” type of read, I was hoping you could tell me more. Vaimes, do you feel like that description of your play with roles matches any recent games I could take a look at?
Also, fulcrum, I asked you some more questions earlier, in that post where I also asked you to walk through the Vaimes read. Would you be able to answer those sometime soon?
Pretty much. And mentioning the second part feels dirty as I'm well aware of how insane this time of year gets. But I thought he was scum yesterday, don't necessarily believe the claim (tom is a perfect person to breadcrumb a fake protect on because when is he ever a NK?), and have seen nothing today to make me revaluate.
what makes you think that you would be [able to] give up [one of your abilities to vaimes if he targeted you]?
Because of the way they are specifically labeled.
I will get to your other questions.
Okay.
Hmm? He breadcrumbed the protect on Asta, not Tom, and he did that during spring, so it wasn’t an actual crumb for whom he was protecting.
But, okay, if Keldeo is a villager who are the wolves? Even if Nacho is (and I'm far from convinced of that) there's definitely 2 more and almost certainly 3?
Like, look at this vote count (right after Nacho retracted his counterclaim)
I'm town, Gemma is dead town, Vezok is a mason, Keldeo is town (given), Killjoy is spewed town, Grape is a hard town read, dkings is town (bodyguard)
Axelrod (3): Vaimes (#979), Killjoy (#1525), Lastwhisper (#1651)
KittyCupCake (5): dkingsland967 (#942), tomsloger (#1553),
Gemma(#1576), vezokpiraka (#1584), Axelrod (#1619)dkingsland967 (5): Silvercrys3467 (#1313), Asta (#1359), KittyCupCake (#1437), Grapefruit21 (#1489), Nachomamma8 (#1647)
Abstaining (2): Prophylaxis, Keldeo
Has to be like, [Proph] + 1 in [Asta, KCC, Nacho] + 0-1 in [tom, Axel] + 1-2 in [Rhand, fulcrum, Vaimes, Last] right?
If I color in my other reads here I get something like, exactly [Proph, Rhand, Lastwhisper, Axelrod] I think? And those aren't even wolf reads just people who are ~less town~ than everyone else. Like... it's a world, don't think it's impossible from interactions and stuff. I probably need to reread the whole game, just don't really have time right now.
I guess, someone talk me to me about this lol.
Uggh now I'm going to have to dig. I was sure it was tom and the breadcrumb mentioned the Iggy Azalea lyrics. Regardless Asta as the target would be the same end newish player who is unlikely to be the target of a NK.
@Silver I don't think DK is town. And I definitely an not town reading him for the claim, why is that enough for you? Or is that a supposition you're attributing to Keldeo?
Can you expand on your wolf reads? Or not town reads I guess?
@silver
This game is hard, there is nothing too obvious to latch onto right noe
Kinda back and forth on Grape, don't know if I'm getting the same vibes as when I was a wolf with him last game tho
Willing to hear arguments to the contrary though
Fairpoint, the likelihood that he probably gets cc'd is also high if he is a wolf
On dk I mean
As for this part BG can coexist with just about every other protective role except another BG. And protective roles have among the most to gain by staying quiet. There is a reason protectives tend to be the go to CC.
But as the whole back and forth was happening i was really watching how they both reacted and i think it was just, like... played up enough and familiar enough (having seen the two of them do essentially *this* before) that its real, or two buddies trying to slightly play up their playstyle differences too distance.
Anyway maybe dont take it as an absolute NOT W/V
So much as a
Theres really no motivation for either to bother with all that if theyre a wolf unless the other is too
And ftr, their current stance on eachother (scumread but not actually pushing both directions, iirc) is tilting the needle towards w/w *just a little
But im still at
V/V > W/W >big gap> rhandW > kjW
Yeah rhand always shows confidence thats nai
Which
I still dont really think it is but ive seen her explanation on vaimestown and its ~alright but feels a little reachy to me/makes town vaimes out to be a bit more of a lovable idiot than he is (these days)
I still want to think about some more. If she were to flip town, of course. But if she were to flip scum is that TMI of townvaimes or forced propping up of a buddy or...
Anyone should feel free to correct their entry, add names, whatever
~~~~~~~~
Top shot choices:
Tom: fulcrum/keldeo/kcc
Fulcrum: keldeo/rhand
Rhand: nacho/vaimes
Last: vaimes/fulcrum
Vaimes: fulcrum/nacho
Silver: keldeo/rhand
Vezok: nacho/axel
Kj: keldeo/silver/kcc
Axel: vaimes
Kcc: nacho/fulcrum
Dkings: kcc/nacho
Grape: DK/Proph/KCC/Keldeo
Doesnt have reads:
Proph
Keldeo
Nacho
Asta
If he is a wolf of course, honestly some of these mindsets are just so wrong, like even if you believe someone is town, if you are town and there is no mechanically confirmed information then you should be fighting for your life over anything else
Is there town that play bad and do this? Yes, just look at my brother.
Now i know i consistently give (bad) wolves too much credit and am often fooled by scumteams that just "do *****/push buttons"
But if one wolf read towndkings claim correctly and then it became summer theyd for sure want to fire ASAP
And if dkings is a wolf that knows the impending dayvig and makes that claim (which is presumably fake in this world) i think he interacts with it a little? A "damn didnt target fast enough to die for gemma" or something.
Idk
The role fits really neatly into how im seeing the setup. But i dont actually feel any better about his posting (hes nullish and very dkings-like)
At some points, it does feel like town!Grape paranioa, but like I still feel like him and many others in this game aren't given me an honest read, they are just shrugging me off as, "this behavior can come from either alignment from Wisp, so I'll keep him at null or below"
probably just town:
Vezok/Last/Axel/Silver/asta
None of this is ride or die but strong enough for what is essentially still day 1
Asta newest addition to this tier. If hes scum pocketing me... good call dude lol
mixed but positive:
kj/rhand/nacho/dkings
See kj+rhand and dkings posts above
Nacho i found his early game really towny but have liked none of {CCing > retracting/m > distracting > doing nothing day 2}
mixed but negative
grape/vaimes/proph
Idk.
Probably just wolves?:
Fulcrum/keldeo/kcc
Grape was actually thinking through if youd retreat into <just scumreading the people whos playstyles you dont like> that seemed a decent point actually so maybe youre thinking of him
give or take, sure
I mean I tend to confuse my wolf reads with, maybe I just dont like how they choose to play
Vaimes meta is pretty garbage for the most part, he just plays for the tonal reads, with reads here and there that dont take much effort
I want to be like, "Ya Vaimes is town here", because of his reads, because right now, all we got is, Can Vaimes play like this at the current stage of the game as both alignments, maybe?
Fulcrum's read of Vaimes is basically, "I dont think wolf!Vaimes goes through all the effort of trying to make us believe he could steal a passive mason because its so messy"
and I honestly dont think that says much of anything in Vaimes favor
especially when overall content-wise, he has mostly nothing
even in regards to like Vezok, who I hate and like posts here and there, who is 99% of the time probably town because of his claim, gives off this feeling that he actually believes his reads and posts, which I dont get from Vaimes
I really don't get why I am being hated for my Vaimes read when Vaimes gets a safety net because of tone which is super easy to fake, when his content is so mediocre, if people don't want to think he is a wolf as of yet, that's fine, but like other than fulcrum who has given a reason why, I would like people to explain to me, why he deserves any semblance of a town read, or why he shouldn't be lynched today
if not Vaimes we should definitely be trying to lynch in the trains from the previous day since no one seems to agree on anything
like Keldeo is such bad choice since he feels like he is trying
KCC to me is the best choice
@Wisp I really can't expand on my reads a ton. Work has been destroying me. Keldeo is basically just sheeping Silvers wall. Proph is really just a slot that has given effectively zero, has a suspicious role (mysterious gifts raise an eyebrow), and that post tom pointed to earlier where Proph read a bunch but didn't have *anything* to say.
What its about is you having trouble overcoming your TMI as scum (fact). And grape is suggesting that pushing <people who you dont like the way they play> could be your way of overcoming that.
Again, i dont agree and think youre town. But i thought it was a pretty interesting take from grape.
As for fonti's vaimes read. Yeah it feels forced out. But i can imagine townfonti seeing vaimes derping around his role useage and thinking hes town for it and going just a little too deep justifying it.
Not sure its more likely than scumfonti forcing a read for <whatever her reasons> and the post looking approximately the same, but both are definitely possible
Would you like to change your top shot choices? "Vaimes/fulcrum" was awhile ago
The vibe i get from you for vaimes and, to a lesser extent, silver.
Is that you dont so much THINK theyre scum as WANT them to be scum
Just think thats a townlast thing more than a scumlast forcing reads thing
Also sorting ~by my reads because its my list and i do what i want
~~~~~~~~
Top shot choices:
Tom: fulcrum/keldeo/kcc
Vezok: nacho/axel
Last: fulcrum/kcc
Axel: vaimes
Silver: keldeo/rhand
Kj: keldeo/silver/kcc
Rhand: nacho/vaimes
Dkings: kcc/nacho
Grape: dkings/proph/keldeo
Vaimes: fulcrum/nacho
Kcc: nacho/fulcrum
Fulcrum: keldeo/rhand
Doesnt have reads:
Proph
Keldeo
Nacho
Asta
Okay, that feels like a thing. I've definitely been in that sort of tunnel before and it garnered a bunch of scum reads.
Hrmmm...
Why? I don't recall you saying a word about me all game?
Would it? Because I know my alignment already, and it's not helping me much.
Say I flip town right now, what does that do for your reads? -This is also an open question to anyone pushing my lynch as being valuable info
If KCC flips town, it might free up some of the suspicion on her and let us put it on her wagon because almost assuredly a couple of wolves decided to go for it. The problem is that a good set of town were definitely on the KCC wagon purely because of the "my role is kinda scummy lol" post that has been an unfortunate misstep but not REALLY alignment indicative IMO
Problem is we just don't have much movement other than the wacky daykill on Gemma, who was p much obvious town. Looking at her reads might have some info, but I dunno if wolves would be so obvious as to shoot her right as she was putting together a read on one of them?
(Yay I made it into Tom's Probably Town List)
I mean "all game" is pretty wild to say, when I have talked about your slot over and over and my feelings on it
Erm... what?
Man, you are really starting to remind me of your D1 play in Modern. You aren't keeping your reads straight and are jumping around without giving contextual reasons for it.
You also waffled on KCC multiple times, but I don't feel like pulling up more quotes. You were basically playing follow-the-leader with your "intentions" at EoD but never moved your vote.
Like you should've died yesterday, and now I'm stuck between your soft probably coming from town and your claim in general being wolfy as *****, how you claimed it, and it's abilities
Ya I expressed that thought as well, so I can see it
I'll bite since you want to talk it out with someone, but herein lies the problem with too-early VCA: a lot depends on KCC's alignment and even then there are a couple big question marks.
If she's scum:
- HER wagon becomes pretty clear, and it's very likely pure. Axel was on her all day, there is no way that's a bus vote. Tom's D2 posts make me feel very good about him. Last was on her and jumped off after Nacho retracted the CC, but I'll be pretty damn surprised if he is scum
- MY wagon becomes a muddled mess. I'm the designated counterwagon, and there is a decent-to-high probability one of her teammates is on there with her. Frankly, no one there is off the table, and I'd say [Grape > Nacho = You > Asta].
- I'm actually very conflicted on Nacho in this world. On one hand, he did shade my claim multiple times after people started unvoting me, and he stuck to me when momentum swung back onto KCC toward EoD. But on the other hand, Rhand looks really bad if KCC flips red based on interactions, and Nacho was where he tried to push at EoD and that's quite the risky play if they are buddies since people were not happy with him and it *could* have gained traction.
- The other scum are likely Rhand and someone hanging out being useless, which would mean something like 1 of [Proph + Keldeo + Vaimes]. KJ is pretty much lock town if KCC is scum based on some early buddying, and I don't see Rhand/fulcrum being W/W and hanging out back-to-back on a secondary wagon that close to EoD.
If she's town:
- Axelrod could be a scum vote, but it's also very possible that Nacho is scum who ran the whole CC gambit to try to jam through the lynch without any of his buddies needing to pile on. This could also indicate he's on a team with lurkers/low activity players. I feel no different about Tom or Last in this world.
- My wagon isn't really any clearer, although maybe Nacho being more likely to be scum makes the other 4 look less likely?
- There are almost certainly still scum hanging out being useless, but KJ joins the potential pile.
So... basically I just spent like 20 minutes spinning my wheels to conclude there are scum somewhere.
I guess... talk to me about Last since you have him as town regardless of KCC's alignment?
1) The way he keeps getting upset about not enough paranoia in the thread
2) His frustration over his Vaimes read vs. everyone else who isn't scum-reading Vaimes feels real
3) He's not posting as much fluff as he did in Modern when he was scum
4) He's pushed against the grain multiple times (Me on D1, Keldeo today) when it would have been extremely easy/convenient for scum to just ride the wave, or at a minimum just leave it alone and see what happens.
Why do you think he's scum?