By shot are you referring to where I want vezok to Lynch Tom? I'd prefer she make that call herself. That was the whole reason I was ok with her being King today.
I actually regret that we voted so quickly because the conversation about who we'd vote ignoring vezok might have been as telling as votal analysis.
yes vezoks going to choose the shot, taking into account whatever she wants
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Also, Asta, yeah I posted 15-20-post sequences like that in Wonka, they were automerged since no one else was around. Do you have any major thoughts on people besides me?
Ive isoed a lot of the latter pile. Other than keldeo whos done stuff today just waiting on conclusions, most of them have zero opinions day 2.
Think this is especially notable for kcc and dkings who ought to have wagon info to work with, nacho who claims he had plenty of information from d1 to work with, and proph whos apparently read half but nothing has piqued his interest enough to give a thought or ask a question
Got into the mid-300s and I have a headache, so gonna step away.
My strongest read so far is that Silver's town. Not really sure how to articulate why - I liked their response to Nacho's read early, #165 positions KJ's read as somewhat unfounded but doesn't actually shade KJ so it feels like they were actually trying to get into KJ's head and solve Gemma (I also found Killjoy's continued pressing into Gemma there towny though I think I disagree with KJ's read), the first part of #351 seems attempting to sort out a genuine point of confusion with my slot, which they were scumreading, without really the extra heat they could have pushed into it. I also have this instinctive "I really like this" reaction to their cadence, which might be the source of the early lean, but I still like the read.
I haven't processed Rhand's wall in #300 fully but I liked the fact that Rhand seemed to be actually trying to interpret what tom meant and making a read on him based on that. I found myself glossing over a lot of tom's posts because I find it hard to parse, so I feel like mafia Rhand could easily have just elected to not give a read on partner tom for similar reasons, or pressured town tom on the ~anti-townness~ of the gimmick. Also in #300, Rhand clearing my slot over the self-meta stuff is a bit unconsidered but also kinda speaks to constricting options/agendalessness since my slot had been picking up steam at least in general thread sentiment there, iirc.
Vaimes' surety on Nacho notably confuses me because I don't really have a read on Nacho. I liked his somewhat bold tone and how he responded to Nacho early on. I mildly liked Wisp (LW)'s tone/approach toward vezok too for similar reasons. (Hi Wisp! )
I think vezok's telling the truth for the way she mentioned her partner probably being obvious. I don't think her partner should claim now, it could be a confirmable role later on.
Given that, Asta's continuing to SR vezok in the way he did is pretty towny to me. I also think his 935 feels very tonally similar to his first game - trying to solve but kind of hesitant or unsure about how to solve confidently, coupled with a lack of self-consciousness about admitting this.
Had an after-the-fact mindmeld with Grapefruit's entrance on Asta's post being town indicative, but that's really not a hard thing to say. I didn't like how Gemma painted Sloth as "frozen" but I feel like Gemma is town for... pretty nebulous reasons. Somewhat absorbing thread reads, somewhat "seems genuine in attempting to solve the game", and some of the more esoteric comparisons she drew about her own play, I feel like she may have wanted to simplify if she were mafia? That last one is conjecture about her playstyle/personality.
Silver pointing out Rhand walking back the tom thing in a somewhat brittle way kind of makes me want to walk back the observation I made about Rhand. Silver is still towny imo, I don't really think his treatment of my slot was weird.
Wisp getting emotional at people scumreading my slot stuck out, I feel like the annoyance is congruent with what I've seen before from town him. In the moment I didn't like... strongly think Vaimes was TMIing me? idk, I don't have a good feel for what Vaimes has done, I think.
I might finish catching up Wednesday night instead of tonight, it's been unexpectedly busy.
Silvercrys - why do you no longer really want to lynch me after me catching up, which I feel like any sub would do? I didn't really get the impression that you wanted to lynch Mind for inactivity, it felt more like a "either just lynch him, or circle back to the slot after subbed."
vezok, that's actually kind of funny because I'd been skimming your posts from a solving standpoint since picking up that you'd claimed from realtime.
I think that post underscores vezok's towniness wrt the claim in that I feel like a mafia might feel a bit ridiculous pressuring someone with the stated reason that they're looking into a nonexistent partner, especially when she'd know that I'm not doing that given she'd know I'm town and what I've said about her partner, whereas it's a more natural thought for a town looking at the thread through the lens of her claim.
What I'm saying about Asta is that like, it'd be his second game as mafia, he sees someone claim and get cleared by multiple people for it and if I'm right on vezok he knows she's got no reason to lie, and he takes this tack of stubborn resistance anyway? It doesn't really gel to me, it'd draw unnecessary negative attention from vezok. It makes more sense to me from a somewhat paranoid and unselfconscious new town player.
Asta, who is she suspecting for targeting her by using the claim as a shield? I'd say I'm doing the opposite of targeting her.
Also, Wisp - you didn't misread me in g8 or hydra d1, and maybe now you know better about Greenblood types? I might be misinterpreting what you're saying but don't feel like you can't or shouldn't read me.
Vote Vaimes
These are his first few posts in the game. They’re all ~fine. The main reason I backed off here is because he replaced in and started posting, I wanted to give him a chance to clear the slot or tie himself to his partners.
I do like the Rhand read, it looks like he’s trying to sort him by thinking about what Rhand would do as both alignments and deciding this is the villagery version of the post.
More decent than my reason to vote most anyone else, that is.
I don’t put a ~ton of stock into wording tells like this but… these are sort of eyebrow raising in that he’s looking for reasons to vote for people rather than actually sorting people.
So... Axelrod. Not quoting a lot of stuff because I don't really feel like it, his iso's only three pages.
I intially townread him for his early KCC push that I thought was trying to break RVS. It's a bit weaker since he admits he wasn't actually trying to do that, just poking, but that ~kind of reinforces the read. As a wolf I think he might try to take the credit I was giving him instead of admitting he didn't do that, though that's rather small, of course. It doesn't really read like theater, either, seems really weird to go after a partner's gambit like that (though day chat, I guess. Still lean towards not w/w though.)
This back and forth with Nacho has a weird edge in it that I don't think comes from partners, either.
In fact, most of his posts/interactions have this kind of sardonic/condescending tone that I associate with some experienced villagers. He's like, incredulous about how people could think some way other than he does. It's very prickly and trying to like, wrap his head around why other people are so wrong. It's not a very good style for wolves because it's not very effective at manipulating people.
His read on me is consistent with players who haven't played with me before, people get weird vibes from my posts and I feel like his "trying to get Mindreaver lunched so sneaky no trust" read is the same kind of thing where my posts feel unnatural/uncanny to him and he's trying to find a reason for it.
I dunno, it's still not a strong read but I don't really think he's a wolf. His pushes don't feel coordinated.
The biggest thing that makes me uneasy is that he isn't really posting about his reads much just picking through the thread. Like his two biggest wolf reads seem to be KCC and Mindreaver, and he hasn't really evolved his KCC read that I can see, he's just tunneling from RVS and he's interrogating her activity level but she has just as many posts as he does.
I didn't townread his KCC vote, nor did I really feel that his vote broke RVS.
The spoiler is blank when I click it. But I briefly went over how I felt about his interactions with Nacho - namely that it feels like he should be scumreading him, but is holding back for some reason. I don't know if it makes more sense as w/v or w/w. Last one seems like pointlessly risky distancing.
Have you seen Axel as a wolf? You're reading his tone as something experienced villagers do. Do you know that this tone isn't just his personality that would be carried over into his scumgame, even if he weren't doing it on purpose?
I didn't townread his KCC vote, nor did I really feel that his vote broke RVS.
The spoiler is blank when I click it. But I briefly went over how I felt about his interactions with Nacho - namely that it feels like he should be scumreading him, but is holding back for some reason. I don't know if it makes more sense as w/v or w/w. Last one seems like pointlessly risky distancing.
Have you seen Axel as a wolf? You're reading his tone as something experienced villagers do. Do you know that this tone isn't just his personality that would be carried over into his scumgame, even if he weren't doing it on purpose?
I don't know that it isn't just his personality but... yeah, I dunno, his read on me feels sincere and I'm not reading him as positioning the way you are, I guess.
There isn't much to say. She softclaimed a scummy ability, and I kind of want to see what it is. Can't do that if she's dead. And I don't have a strong enough scumread on her to push it.
Nacho read hasn't developed much. I scumread his entrance and first handful of posts, I kind of liked his later engagement/posts and moved him up a bit. Then I found a weird contradiction I asked him about, but since then he's been popping in telling us not to lunch anyone and that he'd be here later.
How do you mean with the last part? Comparing my read on Nacho's to Axel's?
Sorry, huh? Wouldn't she claim the role before being lynched, or it'd flip if and when she did? I thought roles will flip since the flavor at SOD had one.
Alright. I was wondering, given your read on Nacho, what you think Axel is positioning for there. I saw you talked a little bit about it but it was kind of brief.
Oh, that I thought Axel should be scumreading Nacho based on the tone of the interactions, but had Nacho as like, leaning town in his list because he seemed sincere or something.
I want to see her role while she is still alive, so waiting for her to flip is kind of counter-productive.
Yeah, I get that. What I'm asking is, does your read on Nacho have any bearing on that observation? This question would probably be more relevant after Nacho is able to catch up.
Okay. I don't really get why you want to see it while she's alive but I'll leave it, I don't think it means anything.
This thing he gets into with Vaimes is kind of interesting? He follows up on a thing I just asked Vaimes about but doesn’t really go deeper than I did, just leaves it dangling because “how does your read on Nacho make you think Axel is positioning with his read on Nacho” is better answered after Nacho catches up or something. Idk it feels like a weird excuse to drop the subject when he’s also representing that he still doesn’t understand the read when ~basically everything about the read had already been said, so I’m not sure what he thought Nacho’s catch up would help clarify (maybe he thought it would change Vaimes’ read on Nacho or something but that doesn’t really change Vaimes’ mindset when he initially made the posts so…)
I also don't really like his progression on M1ndreaver from this post to this one. The progression of treating M1ndreaver with kid's gloves initially to warming up his spot on M1nd's wagon later feels slimy since the second post comes after it becomes clear the m1nd wagon is sticking around for a while.
Sorry, I'm not following this part, could you rephrase or expand on it? I don't really see how the first part is treating my slot with kid gloves, because he is definitely critical of Mind's posts there - not explicitly, but the questions he asks are definitely critical and give me the sense that he's building to a scumread on him, and the later suspicion seems to be following from that. Is the fact that he isn't explicitly SRing Mind in the first post what you're getting at here?
I guess if he thought Mind's Hogan gif was over-the-top in a scummy way, the sort of throwaway/joke response he originally had doesn't make as much sense.
This is lightly not w/w with Nacho, he’s sort of dismissing Nacho’s reason to scum read dkingsland without using it to shade Nacho or anything. It’d be a great point to distance with and feels too neutral for that?
I get the feeling of the "energy" KCC mentions above, but I think the desire to get the slot out of the game or subbed is a natural reaction when a player hasn't posted in a lot of days, and I don't think there was that much resistance to my slot's lynch? iirc multiple people seemed okay with hammering.
KCC, could you look back and talk about who specifically you think was pushing the attitude to "set aside Mind's content, and give him a chance to come back", and who you think are the scum who made you pop up as a wagon? Because I do see Nacho's point there that while those ideas mesh in theory, you seem to be townreading the people who in that situation would be mafia (protecting their partner, my slot).
I know Gemma was in there, it's what first made me really question her alignment. I'm still iffy on her, but if you're town, I'd feel much better there. It's mostly something I think should be looked at if you do flip scum at some point.
And I'll go back and double check this, but I vaguely remember Vaimes being some of that push back as well. But again, that's almost pointless without flipping you first.
And while I don't think dk pushed against Mind, he certainly helped counter wagon me
Okay, so, Nacho did this too, saying he hated the Mind wagon, especially Tom, but instead voting me. Which, looking over exactly how that happened, I think would actually make more sense in an unlikely Tom/nacho world than as a partner to your slot. In a scumMind world, I think nacho is probably a townie whose idea other scum used as cover.
Silver also had a stance of: I don't like the Mind wagon, but let's do it quickly. Which, I don't think comes from a mind buddy either.
So, maybe this isn't a thing.
This is a good post by Keldeo.
I kind of like KCC’s response here -- on the one hand I’m not sure her saying tom/Nacho are w/w makes more sense than one or both of them being Keldeo’s partner based on her being the counter-wagon, but I think if she was a wolf she’d have tried to find ~someone to tie Keldeo to and not just said “oops, I was wrong”. She does end up going to dkingsland after this but she doesn’t really use this as a reason, kind of think she would have pointed back to this directly since she thought it was a strong point.
Mmm so without having reread the cases on her, I don't really want to kill KCC? I guess I've been building to this for a while so it's a bit founded in devil's advocateness, and I don't have a good alternative atm, but, like. If she flips town, it'd feel a bit like a shrug, I personally wouldn't really get anything out of it in that I already think this case is more likely. And I think the most suspect person on her wagon right now is dk, everyone else there as of the latest VC I feel pretty good about. If she flips mafia we actually learn a good amount from her spew I'd think... but I'm still not convinced that she will.
I mean, maybe it's WIFOMy to read as much into the soft/claim stuff as I've been wanting to. There's nothing super impressive about her posting. I guess the posts where she talked about how she felt on people moving off me and pushing her demonstrated a decent amount of facility speaking about a world that isn't true, but that's not that difficult.
He sort of fence sits and says he doesn’t really want to kill her because of her soft/claim and dismisses her re-evaluation, and that’s like... it’s fine, it just isn’t my favorite. Especially since he knows Mindreaver’s alignment?
It’s like, if he's town he knows she was wrong before and he was explicitly not town reading her, but when she tries to tie him to other people there’s no paranoia there just... “have you considered that you’re wrong?” and it feels kind of weird to take that approach and then come back with a big waffle on her for a read, I guess, dismissing the specific interaction he tried to create as not meaning much.
And then his whole EoD thing he like keeps waffling between KCC being a wolf and not a wolf before settling on not lunching at all and unvoting, and like… yeah I dunno. It's wine either way, if he's a villager he was just hesitant to be wrong and if he's a wolf he was representing that, don't think it means much either way at this point.
All of his other stuff is reasonable/fine but nothing else really jumped out at me.
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I think he’s ~probably a wolf? I dunno I still don't feel strongly about this but… dropping his Vaimes inquiry without resolving it is weird and waffling on KCC after she re-evaluated feels more like he wanted her to still be an option without actively pushing it to me. The unvote is weird in Keldeo W/KCC V worlds but if they're partners there was quite a bit of time where someone could have hammered her before he unvoted, flying a bit close to the sun there... so mostly wine, like I said.
I guess he could just be a really conciliatory/unparanoid villager, Lastwhisper or someone who knows him better than me should probably weigh in there?
@tom, the switch flip that you're missing is the part where i thought she scumslipped based on her wording of the NK.
I'm way more interested in the second switch flip. I get that you liked my exit posts, and why you'd retract the CC gambit there -but why did you use your 1shot ability?
I just don't see how you could jump from being very confident I'm a scum JoaT, to moments later wanting to burn your role to power me up.
Think this is especially notable for kcc and dkings who ought to have wagon info to work with
Ehh.. I had two big pushes EoD. One in reaction to a CC, which is almost meaningless. And the second after multiple quick wagons ran into PR claims, time was quickly running out, and I was the only person with any sort of momentum to be a viable option to dodge a no lynch.
From that, my wagons are probably pretty pure. Those are both situations where I likely get lynched and scum can sit back without getting there hands too dirty.
With that said, if I had to pick a lynch right now, I'd flip nacho.
As for alternate king, I'd have pushed for Axel. I think that's about the high point between my town reads and my faith in them to choose well.
@Keldeo
I mean he is town core, because he one of the most natural posters to me at least, and his content is good, there are a few posts by him that I really like
I still stand by my read of keldeo, and honestly looking back at mindreaver, his tone feels different than when I saw him as a wolf from the little posts he has. Originally I hated the, "I will fight my mislynch", but now anymore really
I guess he could just be a really conciliatory/unparanoid villager, Lastwhisper or someone who knows him better than me should probably weigh in there?
I lost this reply originally because I fatfingered pasting over the whole thing instead of copying it from my notes app and there’s no undo feature for ??? reasons
Re: silver’s big post, not quoting because on mobile:
I guess I didn’t phrase it well because I think both you and Vaimes misunderstood the question I was asking him. Your questioning established that he felt Axel’s read was positiony, what I was asking was more like - okay so he had this read on Axel (holding back from scumreading Nacho), he has some read on Nacho (early scumread but I wasn’t sure what it was at that moment), what does he get when he puts them together? What does he think Axel’s agenda is as mafia making that read, what world does he think is more likely? Basically asking him to expand on “don't know if it makes more sense as w/v or w/w.” And Nacho’s imminent catchup might have changed his read on Nacho and influenced the answer to the question. He never gave me a satisfying answer iirc but I don’t think I ever got across what I meant by the question.
Also the “reason to vote” thing was me trying to phrase “just voting Vaimes to see his reaction, but obviously I can’t say it’s just to see his reaction” in a way that could mislead Vaimes into actually thinking I had something on him, while not being untrue. But that didn’t really work out. /shrug
Re: KCC thing, for the initial question I don’t really ask people questions that convey my scumread of them, ime it doesn’t spur productive discussion.
That post was not really leaving the option open because at that time it was basically putting her into my “not today” tier. I liked those reevaluation posts, it’s what I mentioned as facility discussing untrue worlds, but that read on her overall was more heavily influenced by everything around her soft and claim, and not her treatment of me, because what she said in those re-evaluation posts never really carried over to her read on me/my slot. iirc it pretty much stayed at “well I guess Keldeo is okay but Mindreaver was scummy.” I think it’s pretty easy as mafia to, when you’re called out for an inconsistency in your worldview, just be like “oh yeah maybe [inconsistent part] doesn’t meant anything after all haha” and not really update the rest of the worldview, so while it was good that she was able to talk about something untrue it didn’t move the needle for me that much.
And yes, I’d describe myself as a conciliatory person, but I’m not quite sure what that has to do with the read you’re making on me? Unparanoid probably depends on what metric you’re using because I’m generally an unsure player but I have played with like hardcore tinfoiling never-complacent players and I’m not really that either.
I’m not too sure how effectively this addresses your concerns so let me know if something’s unclear or you want me to talk more about something.
Was having tinfoil doubts about the idea that Silver was just coasting on not really having to do stuff or commit to scumreads given the King mechanic but this post makes me feel a bit better. Specifically the way he talked about the KCC post in the middle of a post putatively about me felt like, organically folded in. I also kinda liked how he pointed out his approach to Vaimes in addition to mine, I feel like you could remember that as either alignment, but maybe would be more likely to point out something you did as a villager?
Also, Silver, talk to me more about KCC, if you could? And just curious is it crys like Chris or like crystal (I guess they’re the same :p)
By shot are you referring to where I want vezok to Lynch Tom? I'd prefer she make that call herself. That was the whole reason I was ok with her being King today.
Well, I am not in favor of just letting Vez go wild in the hopes that it will give us a better read on Vez. Scum simply have too much leeway. Vez ought to abide by majority wishes. Which is what it sounds like she is doing, so, no issues there.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KCC, why do you think mafia Nacho would counterclaim you like that?/how does that interact with your thought that scum would stay off your wagon? He would be catching the most flak if you flipped town before he retracted.
@Keldeo
I mean he is town core, because he one of the most natural posters to me at least, and his content is good, there are a few posts by him that I really like
By shot are you referring to where I want vezok to Lynch Tom? I'd prefer she make that call herself. That was the whole reason I was ok with her being King today.
Well, I am not in favor of just letting Vez go wild in the hopes that it will give us a better read on Vez. Scum simply have too much leeway. Vez ought to abide by majority wishes. Which is what it sounds like she is doing, so, no issues there.
? I think Vez is probably the nearest to consensus/confirmable town, and I thought what we were doing was letting a nearly confirmed town take whatever shot they wanted, which I think is what Killjoy is also saying.
I’m fine with her going for the majority opinion if she wants, so it doesn’t really matter, but do you actually think Vez might be mafia who will publicly shoot some townie?
If I wasn't prodded I should have been. Been a crazy weekend. Was worried I broke my thumb and couldn't type yesterday but it's all good!
Catching up now. And my first thought is that Silver's 2656 is good. That lack of paranoia/doubt is one of the harder things to naturally do as scum. Paranoia is easy enough to perform, but the implicit doubting of people's alignments as their reads evolve is harder to change. Much easier to get stuck on reads when there is no doubt.
KCC, why do you think mafia Nacho would counterclaim you like that?
To push through a lynch that was losing momentum before we could potentially refocus to scum? He thought it'd look bad when he used his public ability later if he didn't mention it when someone he was voting claimed a seasonal JoaT with scummy abilities? He figured he'd get out of it D2 with an explanation and ability reveal?
how does that interact with your thought that scum would stay off your wagon? He would be catching the most flak if you flipped town before he retracted.
Exactly. If nacho is scum, I don't think it's likely other scum jumped on that dangerous gambit with him. In fact, I'd guess they'd be far more likely to express caution or doubt to distance, in case it didn't work out and nacho got lynched D2 for it.
proph i want to kill just a little bit more every time he delays
With you on keldeo. If hes scum hes played perfectly fine replacing in, but hes never wanted to move forward. Its more than just the unvote
And i think we might have had an all town wagon on mind, who was scummy af
This is starting to become unavoidable. I get that it's a rough time of year for catch ups, but Proph really hates catching up as scum.
I'm honestly kinda demotivated to do much today because I can't start a wagon toDay. Not a huge fan of the King mechanic today.
Hm. Lets try this:
Silvercrys, Prophylaxis, Vaimes, Lastwhisper, KittyCupCake, Grapefruit2,Rhand, dkingsland967: If Vezok didn't claim mason, who would you have voted for King?
Silver would have been my first choice. You and Asta would have been in the running as well. Asta being particularly tempting.
I am sorry for not catching up this weekend like I hoped to do - new job + coordinating holiday stuff + keeping on top of normal stuff has been a bit overwhelming for me as of late.
What I need in order to contribute to this game at a normal level is to reread the game and gather my thoughts in a reasonable way, and is what I intend to do when I get the opportunity, even if that's a piece by piece type of process and I would like to take some actual time to sit down and respond to actual concerns about me but I just don't have the emotional capacity to bring it right this second. I need to use the V/LA to cut down on my commitments a little so I can start to get things taken care of elsewhere in a way that I haven't lately.
I see silvers post on keldeo and its great and ive still got my own reasons on both keldeo and mindreaver and his posting still isnt really doing anything and yet
Idk at least hes posting
I guess this is just to say keldeos still a wolf but im rather enjoying having him in this game and maybe id rather kill fonti
proph i want to kill just a little bit more every time he delays
With you on keldeo. If hes scum hes played perfectly fine replacing in, but hes never wanted to move forward. Its more than just the unvote
And i think we might have had an all town wagon on mind, who was scummy af
This is starting to become unavoidable. I get that it's a rough time of year for catch ups, but Proph really hates catching up as scum.
ftr ive officially got him below null as of this post
FYI y'all I'm about halfway done with reading the thread (up to around post 1000) and I should be able to finish tomorrow and provide a detailed readslist.
KillJoy:
He’s very easy to read as town, and this is town!him.
I wonder if he can mimick his towngame as scum. I haven’t seen him as scum in a loooong time. But I doubt he can. His towngame is extremely pure.
Verdict: town
I think KJ is scum. After all the times he was wrong about my alignment, I should be at least in his lean reads.
As town I always saw him evolve the read at least. Now he just throws me in his mafia reads.
I think he sees me as an easy “scumread“ because I always catch flak early game.
vote Killjoy
Rhand, can you walk me through what changed between these posts?
You said earlier that you were wondering if Killjoy was just faking the tunnel to have an excuse to park on you. But he moved his vote to Axel.
Is your movement off him purely because your TRs were calling your interactions v/v? Do you have any thoughts on his more recent posting? I get you also want to reread the top "wagons," but I want to get into your head here.
@Rhand, you haven't really talked about Silver since responding to that post Silver made about your early post, which was about his approach from very early on. Does this read still hold up to you - in other words, has your townread been reaffirmed or eroded by stuff he's done? His approach to you no longer seems to be "your posts feel weird," given that he fleshed out his read on you more later.
The read became less strong, but I still think he's town. It's very common to enter a Rhand tunnel early and never leave it.
It's something in the way my posts sound. I wish I knew what it was so I would get mislynched less often as town.
Also, Rhand, tell me about what distinguished Silver's approach to you from Killjoy's approach in your mind. You seemed to have the "he could be tunneling me" line of thought toward both of them, but also scumread KJ for not reevaluating on it, and townread Silver when Silver didn't reevaluate on it either?
@ tom, I think based on Rhand's general cadence that he is just the type of person who phrases things in a way that makes him seem extremely sure, regardless of alignment. There's a lot of rhetoric like "x would never do this as y alignment" or "this world would be completely unreasonable" both in his posting here and in this one post he quoted to I think dkings that was from a previous game.
Does this affect your Rhand/KJ aligned read? It makes me a little skeptical... well, I guess it would point more in the direction of Rhand v/KJ w being possible, where Rhand just sounds like he is not evaluating because that's how he phrases things, and KJ is faking this Rhand tunnel that Rhand is talking about, but I don't really think KJ is a wolf.
Alternatively/in addition, could you just, like, talk for a bit about why you don't think that it is a w/v world where one of them is faking the tunnel? I don't think it's /that/ hard to fake OMGUS tunneling a villager as a wolf. Rhand spent a lot of time talking about KJ being a wolf and then just went off of him for what seems to me like kind of a thin reason, which doesn't make a ton of sense to me as either alignment really.
I don’t 100% trust KJ, but I seem to be the only one finding it strange he came with such a strong read on me given our history.
I haven’t seen him as scum for a very long time (I don’t think he even has rolled scum this year), so I am not sure what he is capable of.
His read on me didn’t feel as pure, but now that he dropped it, he feels more pure again.
Silver is a whole different story. KJ always claimed he found out how to read me and was wrong every time he thought he had it. He shouldn’t be this sure. Silver is like every townie ever that mislynched me: my posts sound “off” in some way (probably because I am not native English) and that makes people mistrust me all the time to the point where they step into a Rhand tunnel and never leave it.
I think scum!Silver would have left that tunnel by now, seeing there is not much support for it in this game.
What worries me more is Fulcrum’s scum read on me. I don’t recall her ever explaining why she thinks I am scum, she just drops me in her scum pile.
@Anyone that knows Fulcrum’s meta: is that normal behaviour for her?
I didn't get a chance to ISO many people on day 1 because I got caught up in EOD business once I had caught up on the thread, so I did some ISOs. I still haven't gotten through everyone, but I wanted to post where I am rn because I'll be busy next few days and might not get a chance to finish soon, and I would like people to talk to me about these reads.
--
Some townreads in decreasing order of Concerns:
vezokpiraka: Mason claim seems legit for reasons I think I've talked about, and is probably self-resolving.
tomsloger: I didn't reread his d1 but he's been pretty towny recently - he's driving discussion and actually seems to be trying to solve on what feels like a kind of sluggish day so far for a lot of people. It's like, if tom is mafia he's already in a pretty good thread position, he doesn't need to do all of the getting people and himself on record, especially with the King mechanic. You could say that he's pushing me and that has a clear agenda if he's a wolf, but the fact that he's not just mindlessly pushing but is also evaluating other people and other aspects of play makes me feel like there's probably less likely to be an agenda backing it. Also, I enjoy the way he's put forward some reads with an oblique or opaque explanation but then is ready to expand on it (e.g. KJ/Rhand aligned and dkings/Axel not w/w).
My worries here mainly stem from like, general Fear of someone who enjoys wolfing and is good at wolfing. In particular a ~major part of my townread from today is informed by this kind of brazen display of emotion, and he seems like the type of person who'd be able to fake specifically that type of emotion and be cackling in wolfchat all along.
I think if he is a wolf, he's prooobably attempting to get town to eat itself with his “there should be a wolf within the d1 wagons” and “there should be a wolf within the people who pushed for NL” ideas. I also think that if he is a wolf, there's a measure of openwolfing to his play - talking about what he'd be doing as scum, openly admitting that he's preserving me as a mislynch/someone to push later, etc.
But overall, I don't really think he is a wolf.
Lastwhisper: I've played two other games with Wisp, he was town in both, and I got similar enough feels from some of the emotion he's expressed and the types of reads he's made in real time, and I also didn't reeeally want to ISO him so he gets to be here. Recently, I like his approach to my slot today and the way he talked about me to Tom - although I'm more than aware that could be #LeveragingTMIForAPocket from him, especially given the last game we played together, I felt like he was actually trying to get his point across to Tom about how I play? idk, I mean, I don't think he should be a target today and I think the thread's pretty much agreed so I guess I don't feel a pressing need to go more granular than this.
Where I'm concerned is. Wisp's posting style is often hard for me to get a firm read on. I feel that here, as I have been before, I'm just townreading him for a really nebulous and holistic sense of good activity/presence and meta-congruent tone - and holistic reads are where I struggle, and I have not seen him as mafia.
This all feels pretty abstract but there's not a ton concrete that I feel I could hang a read on.
Silvercrys3467: Sort of like Wisp in that he gets “town I guess” status carried over from my day 1 reads, but with a side of “do more when you can” because it feels like he's taken more of a backseat to the thread. I felt really good about him on the first day and I don't think I need to like... convince the thread of those good feels, but. But.
I still have the Keanu Reeves What If theory that he's just floating today and w/w with like, KCC based on EOD1, and some random other people like idk Proph or something. His recent wallpost about me feels better in the "floating" regard. I don't know whether to read his asides in that post of things that could possibly make me town as evenhanded straightforward villager or TMIing mafia but I lean toward the former.
Don't know what to make of him just not reevaluating on Rhand and not really either buttressing or reevaluating the read more. He seems like the type who'd be more thoughtful than to do that as either alignment.
Asta: I found reading Asta a little difficult in the game we just played together, but overall I feel (1) his approach to vezok's claim, (2) his not really seeming concerned about maintaining progressions or putting reasonable logic behind his reads when he seems self conscious in other regards (e.g. talking about why he can't be here), and (3) how he treated me recently in that he had set up to shade me and I feel like he could have gone harder on me if he wanted to, but instead like... ended up talking himself into conceding points on me, which I think is good given the thread state on me, is enough to put him at villagery imo. Also re: (3), I get the feeling if he were mafia he'd be doing this because he's afraid to be wrong, but that doesn't really match up with his d1 play and accusations, or because he wants to pocket me, but that doesn't scan with how he went about presenting the read.
The obvious caveat is that he has not been here that much and produced very little content so I can't be suuuper sure, and I'm not like blown away by his content or tone. But I generally feel alright about this read.
These people are in a different post because I have reasons to townread them but I have bigger concerns, or I just don't really know, and I guess I would like people to talk to me about them more.
Killjoy: I kind of like his early posting to Gemma about her refusal to talk about Nacho meta - he seemed frustrated not just because she wasn't answering the question but because it felt like he was irritated about not being better equipped to solve her alignment - being frustrated by someone he knew was town could also be an option, and it becoming a scumread is ehh, though. His early thoughts around vezok and Mind don't super feel like he has TMI/wants to preserve me as a ML, respectively. He also seemed to be parsing things for real at EOD yesterday (e.g. the “why is x town again” questions, looking up the claims).
Generally the way he presents his reads and discusses/pushes back on others feels just. Reasonable. I feel like some of his questions/posts speak to a kind of offbeat way of solving that's in the background. I don't know if I could confidently say he's town, I'm also a little concerned he's been a Reasonable Wolf pushing on villagers and kind of coasting so far today since the King mechanic doesn't require a lot of effort to push a ML (see also: discussion with Tom about VAIMESing > solving, when he kind of hasn't done that much since then?), but writing this out there's a good amount in his favor.
At the same time, some of his questions feel empty, like he's asking just to ask. Or like, asking someone to explain something that already seems evident from their original post about it? I guess different people will understand different things? I don't think I'm very good at making reads off questions.
I guess I actually feel like his frustration toward Rhand and vice versa felt real, which would make them less likely w/w.
Also fun fact: there are multiple VAIMESes at pagebottoms in his ISO.
Rhand: Rhand kind of feels like he's playing his own game. His reads are mostly consistent and develop on their own time; he sticks to his guns on some reads even when he seems to be catching criticism for them. At the same time this means a lot of his pushes have been kind of perpendicular to where the thread is going, which makes their validity a bit difficult to judge. Add that to low engagement because of his cruise, and he ends up a bit of a puzzle to me. I would really like people to talk to me about him.
I still like this post about his townread on tom where he talks about what he perceives as tom's reasoning for things. On reflection I don't fully agree with Silver's thought on him walking it back as just "tom's worldview is clear" later on, because it seems like his read is at least partially based on agreeing with tom's worldview (e.g. read on tom's post.) Like, it actually feels like he's trying to solve tom, instead of just like, skimming tom's somewhat hard-to-understand (at least to me) posts.
He seems to treat Killjoy a lot differently from Silver. Possibly for different thread temperature reasons, but Killjoy wasn't really under a lot of pressure day 1, either? Like he's just really confident about KJ, spends a lot of time talking about him, and then relents because his townreads were saying Killjoy is a villager, which is a development that really confuses me based on the magnitude of tunnel he seemed to be in. But he also voted Grapefruit afterward, who was not a viable wagon either, and his explanation of why he treated these people differently seems to make sense? So like, this probably makes more sense as offbeat town than mafia (what agenda is he pushing?)
Honestly a lot of what he has said just... makes sense as thoughts that someone who is trying to figure out who is mafia might have and post about the game. But there's just nothing screaming at me as town, as well as the bigger picture of me having too many townreads, which are holding me back.
Very mildly not w/w with grapefruit for Sloth questioning him right off the bat because in my experience with w Sloth he shied away from talking about things from his partner except those he'd find objectionable as either alignment.
Also don't think he's w/w with Axel for the early pressuring between them, and that one post Axel made that was quoting things Rhand said using quotation marks "like this" felt like throwing the wording back in his face; Axel seems to make that type of post to other people, but there's also the kind of exposing question Rhand asked in return.
Not w/w with Asta for pointing out him having two votes in a tone that was like "is this a mod error?"
Don't really think he's w/w with Fulcrum over his Vezok/Fulcrum worldbuilding early, he could be using that as a way to defend fulcrum but then he got into that conversation with fulcrum about what tom's reads meant. Also him asking fulcrum if she was counterclaiming KCC is a bit ? if partners.
Slothful/Grapefruit21: I liked him enough yesterday on skimming his ISO. I went back and still like a lot of the things that I liked before. There's just a bunch of little mindset things and fiddly details in the way he goes about making his reads that make me think he’s being genuine. Like the mushy pile of townreads thing and his talking himself through Silver when he’d just gotten here. Also loltonereads but I really liked his one post to Silver where he was like "don't be a passenger in your own life." Actually not just tone, it felt like he was giving probably town Silver the impetus to do stuff and spool out a wolfread of Grapefruit himself.
There’s this thread atmosphere thing where he’s in the middle ish of everyone’s reads lists - not top town, not rock bottom - and people seem content with that, but I think? that’s understandable given what he’s done, which is concretely not a lot. His posting today has been pretty meh, but the reason he's given about why is #relatable. Actually I kind of want to go back and check something irt him later.
Axelrod: mmm, so, Axel is one of the people who I feel I wouldn't be able to pull the trigger on today, just from the mechanical fact that his claimed info abilities are pretty good. Even though he has two weaker abilities for the next two seasons (spring > fall) it applies and I feel less motivated to really dig into his ISO because of it.
In terms of behavior, I didn't like how driveby he felt early on, but I feel his posting today about the people on his wagon has been solid, if a bit noncommittal in the end? I kind of want him to take some hard spicy stances. Without a thorough reread, I don't think I have anything super deep to say about him that I haven't already gone into to some extent.
I'll talk about the other people itg when I get to fully ISOing them. I realize that includes most of the top "wagons" atm, but reading people that I'm not already feeling good about takes longer, and there's a decent amount of time left in the phase, and something something work expands to fill available time
If you want my take on something in particular, let me know and I can probably take a look sooner, since that's a lot easier from mobile.
Okay I also took a look at shadowlancer/Proph slot real quick and... nothing from the slot really moves me. I'm not swayed by the idea that giving the blue orb to vezok means he's town - it could be deleterious somehow, and if it's not deleterious someone mentioned that it's within shadow's wolfrange to try to pocket people via actions - although vezok said it did happen before vezok's mason claim, when I feel like vezok would be an interesting person to give that to... I guess he is >rand mafia given my townreads on others, and I understand he's busy (good luck with exams!), it's a busy time of the year in general, and could have just been hit hard by real life, but him saying he'd be caught up by [2 days ago] + grape saying he struggles to catch up as scum isn't a great look.
Actually, had the idea that shooting this slot is good if Proph doesn't impress because we don't get wagon info today and reading into wagon movement on a lurker lynch would be harder anyway, but that's not a super compelling reason on its own.
I guess in the end I just want him to come back and do stuff that I can read him better off of.
In terms of behavior, I didn't like how driveby he felt early on, but I feel his posting today about the people on his wagon has been solid, if a bit noncommittal in the end? I kind of want him to take some hard spicy stances. Without a thorough reread, I don't think I have anything super deep to say about him that I haven't already gone into to some extent.
You accuse him of being noncommittal, but all the reads you just pushed out are noncommittal too.
Keldeo's posts felt solid, the only wish-washyness of them being "could be wrong on some of these because there's still a lot of information we don't have" since we had a day kill but not lynch and no night kill-- and honestly it's been kinda chaos with a lot of weird ***** happening, kinda hard to sort.
@Keldeo: Most of my thoughts begin and end with "Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa" If I were a Pokemon in this thread, it'd be Wooloo baybee
If I hadn't been an idiot and just went ahead and voted, I'd have double-voted Tom king, hands down.
Okay I joke about sheeping but I didn't want to come back with a legit top shot that I felt good about until I'd done a little digging (sheeping tom/vaimes here) and I was gonna go for fulcrum (because I just............ do not want to shoot Keldeo today. While there's an occasional brain fuzz for me about him kinda being like Wonka, I keep convincing myself he has the same tone cuz he's the same PERSON not necessarily same role)
But I glanced through fulcrum, and I dunno
Fulcrum seemed to talk through the DK stuff just fine, preliminary stuff seems on the up and up, so I'm curious if there's something I'm missing there.
Doesnt have reads:
Proph
dkings
Keldeo
Grape
Nacho
Asta
Oh, I guess you can put fulcrum as my second choice. To be clear though, I don't think nacho and fulcrum are scum together.
I don't believe scums day one strategy was "hey let's just counterclaim every townie". Especially with both hinting CCs to me.
In a nacho Town world though, I could see fulcrum watching nacho be widely Town read for the misguided CC, and wanting to score some easy Town points for herself the same way.
I'd prefer nacho atm, but either is a valuable flip with decent odds of hitting scum
? I think Vez is probably the nearest to consensus/confirmable town, and I thought what we were doing was letting a nearly confirmed town take whatever shot they wanted, which I think is what Killjoy is also saying.
I’m fine with her going for the majority opinion if she wants, so it doesn’t really matter, but do you actually think Vez might be mafia who will publicly shoot some townie?
I do not think that Vez is confirmed because she claimed Mason. She might still be scum. It requires a bold gambit, and another scum to tie himself into it, and it might not be extremely likely, but I have seen it before. And it seems like bold scum gambits are becoming more and more frequent these days.
And if Vez is scum, and she is given leeway to shoot anyone she wants, she will shoot a Townie. This will be relatively easy for her to justify, as different people are currently advocating for different choices. This is all I am saying. Letting her shoot whoever she wants either (1) to get a better read on her or (2) because you "trust" her townie-judgment more than majority consensus, seems bad to me.
Or, we could just treat this as a normal lynch and not have any issues.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I keep having problems with this game because I have rarely been able to get, and more importantly stay, fully engagaed here due to being busy IRL and also being around when almost no one else is.
I don't have any really strong scum reads, just a few really strong town reads.
Like I've got several things I've noted that look scummy, but in an [if X, then Y] context. Example: Rhand's jump onto Nacho at EoD D1. It kinda looks like he's trying to ride the wave of negative emotion pointed in Nacho's direction over the season-change/fake CC fiasco. But the timing of it was when people started to move back to KCC late. It looks bad in a scum!KCC world, but in a town!KCC world it's pretty meh.
If there's a gun to my head and I have to pick a top two for vezok, I'd say KCC and Nacho. I really want KCC's alignment resolved, I think it would be the single most important data point at this stage in the game. And Nacho has just fallen off the map since the EoD disaster plus the stuff Axel/Tom talked through a page or two ago (the "switch flip") doesn't make sense. I also didn't love the way he threw subtle shade at my claim a couple times after people unvoted me.
I wouldn't cry over Vaimes or fulcrum. I just don't trust Vaimes, though that is primarily gut-based because his behavior and night action feel off. Fulcrum seemed really convinced her role couldn't co-exist with Axelrod's but then just completely dropped it.
I do not think that Vez is confirmed because she claimed Mason. She might still be scum. It requires a bold gambit, and another scum to tie himself into it, and it might not be extremely likely, but I have seen it before. And it seems like bold scum gambits are becoming more and more frequent these days.
The biggest thing that makes me feel confident it's not a scum gambit is her multiple hints that we should be able to figure out who her mason partner is. I think if vezok was scum who decided to fakeclaim Mason, she would have kept her poker face on as long as possible so the scumteam could follow the flow of the game and strategically choose the right player to claim second mason when it becomes necessary. And this is especially the case knowing they have daychat.
Okay I joke about sheeping but I didn't want to come back with a legit top shot that I felt good about until I'd done a little digging (sheeping tom/vaimes here) and I was gonna go for fulcrum (because I just............ do not want to shoot Keldeo today. While there's an occasional brain fuzz for me about him kinda being like Wonka, I keep convincing myself he has the same tone cuz he's the same PERSON not necessarily same role)
But I glanced through fulcrum, and I dunno
Fulcrum seemed to talk through the DK stuff just fine, preliminary stuff seems on the up and up, so I'm curious if there's something I'm missing there.
Tom thinks I'm "different," which, yeah, no *****, dude.
Vaimes: A Town Case
Part 1: The thoughts themselves
Vaimes is more likely to get creative with roles in ways that benefit his team, than the other way around. He's not great at putting himself in the other team's perspective. This is reflected in two points:
1.
I’m the vendor, and Axel is right, I thought I could receive passive abilities and that there was a chance vezok could give me something like a one-shot Masonizer. Seems silly in retrospect, but I really wanted to do the bare minimum to townfirm myself.
I softer/crumbed the role a few times. The items are real, and there are mechanical reasons for me not to elaborate on them, but believe me when I say I was tempted to play the game as if I were VT. The BP isn’t that bad, and the track very specifically would be perfect for vezok.
Vaimes just having the thought of using getting a one-shot masonizer is indicative of him being town. Vaimes later confirmed that DV told him he could take passive abilities. Why believe that? Because it's super awkward for scum!Vaimes to be like "Yeah, I can take passive abilities, but not that passive ability" and it's something we can easily test.
But fonti, doesn't Vaimes always want to be town, so he might have been day dreaming about how he would use the ability as town? Potentially. But, to be in that place emotionally, he'd to be dissatisfied with his scum team, and with their day chat in particular. It would have to be a mostly inactive team, with like proph, asta, dk, grape, rhand, maybe axel,any low poster who also wouldn't be active in scumchat. A combination of those is unlikely, and would probably already be doomed in this game.
Could he have got the idea from somewhere else? Maybe, but based on the incredulousness of thread reactions, I don't think people from this site would have mason idea and given it to Vaimes. Nothing like it was mentioned in the thread before Vaimes claimed and explained his reasoning.
f the ability is multi shot or passive, I don’t think I like. Vanillize the person. That never occurred to me.
The opposite of the first example, this one shows that Vaimes hasn't been considering his ability from a mafia pov. Vanillaizing, stealing roles for himself, and getting info, are the three main mafia oriented parts of his role. He, or his partners, would have discussed it. I believe the statement is genuine because a.it feels genuine and b. it's followed up with this:
I wouldn't cry over Vaimes or fulcrum. I just don't trust Vaimes, though that is primarily gut-based because his behavior and night action feel off. Fulcrum seemed really convinced her role couldn't co-exist with Axelrod's but then just completely dropped it.
Two things:
1. If you are choosing between killing Vaimes and me, kill me first, and then don't kill him. Do not ignore my read on him after my death.
2. Look, I'm not an expert on how this site's approach to roles has changed over time. Base on the reactions, and other claims, I may have overestimated how close my role is to Axel's. I still firmly believe the overlap in us learning Ability Names is weird. I expect it will be reevaluated later in the game, and my info will be useful at that time. Right now, I see no point in pushing Axel, as I do not have the ability to get him lynched (or to convince Vezok to lynch him) and I'm not sure if I even should.
@Keldeo: do you have any townread apart from the mason claim that you actually believe in? Or a scumread for that matter?
Yeah, I believe in my TRs on tom, Wisp, Silver, and Asta, they are all pretty confident town imo. Also maybe grape. Maybe you mistake my going into what possibly could be the case if they are wolves as not committing to the read? I’ve found it’s helpful for me and the thread to just lay it out.
Scumreads later.
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Who would *your* top choices be?
Wisp, tell me why KJ is lock town for you?
Killjoy and Rhand, could you talk to me about me/Mindreaver, and how you think your read on my slot has developed over the course of the game?
Tom: keldeo/fulcrum
Fulcrum: keldeo/rhand
Rhand: nacho/vaimes
Last: vaimes/fulcrum
Vaimes: fulcrum/nacho
Silver: keldeo/rhand
Vezok: nacho/keldeo
Kj: keldeo/silver/kcc
Axel: vaimes?
Unknown:
Proph
Kcc
dkings
Keldeo
Grape
Nacho
Asta
Ive isoed a lot of the latter pile. Other than keldeo whos done stuff today just waiting on conclusions, most of them have zero opinions day 2.
Think this is especially notable for kcc and dkings who ought to have wagon info to work with, nacho who claims he had plenty of information from d1 to work with, and proph whos apparently read half but nothing has piqued his interest enough to give a thought or ask a question
I do like the Rhand read, it looks like he’s trying to sort him by thinking about what Rhand would do as both alignments and deciding this is the villagery version of the post.
Next one is long, sorry.
I kind of like KCC’s response here -- on the one hand I’m not sure her saying tom/Nacho are w/w makes more sense than one or both of them being Keldeo’s partner based on her being the counter-wagon, but I think if she was a wolf she’d have tried to find ~someone to tie Keldeo to and not just said “oops, I was wrong”. She does end up going to dkingsland after this but she doesn’t really use this as a reason, kind of think she would have pointed back to this directly since she thought it was a strong point.
Keldeo’s follow up is less impressive though.
It’s like, if he's town he knows she was wrong before and he was explicitly not town reading her, but when she tries to tie him to other people there’s no paranoia there just... “have you considered that you’re wrong?” and it feels kind of weird to take that approach and then come back with a big waffle on her for a read, I guess, dismissing the specific interaction he tried to create as not meaning much.
And then his whole EoD thing he like keeps waffling between KCC being a wolf and not a wolf before settling on not lunching at all and unvoting, and like… yeah I dunno. It's wine either way, if he's a villager he was just hesitant to be wrong and if he's a wolf he was representing that, don't think it means much either way at this point.
All of his other stuff is reasonable/fine but nothing else really jumped out at me.
-------------
I think he’s ~probably a wolf? I dunno I still don't feel strongly about this but… dropping his Vaimes inquiry without resolving it is weird and waffling on KCC after she re-evaluated feels more like he wanted her to still be an option without actively pushing it to me. The unvote is weird in Keldeo W/KCC V worlds but if they're partners there was quite a bit of time where someone could have hammered her before he unvoted, flying a bit close to the sun there... so mostly wine, like I said.
I guess he could just be a really conciliatory/unparanoid villager, Lastwhisper or someone who knows him better than me should probably weigh in there?
Nacho (3): Rhand, Vaimes, Vezok
Vaimes (3): Rhand, Last, Axel
fulcrum (3): tom, Last, Vaimes
Rhand (2): fulcrum, Silver
KCC (1): Killjoy
Silver (1): Killjoy
I just don't see how you could jump from being very confident I'm a scum JoaT, to moments later wanting to burn your role to power me up.
Ehh.. I had two big pushes EoD. One in reaction to a CC, which is almost meaningless. And the second after multiple quick wagons ran into PR claims, time was quickly running out, and I was the only person with any sort of momentum to be a viable option to dodge a no lynch.
From that, my wagons are probably pretty pure. Those are both situations where I likely get lynched and scum can sit back without getting there hands too dirty.
With that said, if I had to pick a lynch right now, I'd flip nacho.
As for alternate king, I'd have pushed for Axel. I think that's about the high point between my town reads and my faith in them to choose well.
I mean he is town core, because he one of the most natural posters to me at least, and his content is good, there are a few posts by him that I really like
I had a townread on Mindreaver and have been mostly skimming your posts.
Rereading you is on my to do.
I mean given that's why I lynched him in the Hydra game where he was town, the answer is yes, he can be an unparanoid villager
Hydra Game 1 Keldeo's ISO
town
Re: silver’s big post, not quoting because on mobile:
I guess I didn’t phrase it well because I think both you and Vaimes misunderstood the question I was asking him. Your questioning established that he felt Axel’s read was positiony, what I was asking was more like - okay so he had this read on Axel (holding back from scumreading Nacho), he has some read on Nacho (early scumread but I wasn’t sure what it was at that moment), what does he get when he puts them together? What does he think Axel’s agenda is as mafia making that read, what world does he think is more likely? Basically asking him to expand on “don't know if it makes more sense as w/v or w/w.” And Nacho’s imminent catchup might have changed his read on Nacho and influenced the answer to the question. He never gave me a satisfying answer iirc but I don’t think I ever got across what I meant by the question.
Also the “reason to vote” thing was me trying to phrase “just voting Vaimes to see his reaction, but obviously I can’t say it’s just to see his reaction” in a way that could mislead Vaimes into actually thinking I had something on him, while not being untrue. But that didn’t really work out. /shrug
Re: KCC thing, for the initial question I don’t really ask people questions that convey my scumread of them, ime it doesn’t spur productive discussion.
That post was not really leaving the option open because at that time it was basically putting her into my “not today” tier. I liked those reevaluation posts, it’s what I mentioned as facility discussing untrue worlds, but that read on her overall was more heavily influenced by everything around her soft and claim, and not her treatment of me, because what she said in those re-evaluation posts never really carried over to her read on me/my slot. iirc it pretty much stayed at “well I guess Keldeo is okay but Mindreaver was scummy.” I think it’s pretty easy as mafia to, when you’re called out for an inconsistency in your worldview, just be like “oh yeah maybe [inconsistent part] doesn’t meant anything after all haha” and not really update the rest of the worldview, so while it was good that she was able to talk about something untrue it didn’t move the needle for me that much.
And yes, I’d describe myself as a conciliatory person, but I’m not quite sure what that has to do with the read you’re making on me? Unparanoid probably depends on what metric you’re using because I’m generally an unsure player but I have played with like hardcore tinfoiling never-complacent players and I’m not really that either.
I’m not too sure how effectively this addresses your concerns so let me know if something’s unclear or you want me to talk more about something.
Was having tinfoil doubts about the idea that Silver was just coasting on not really having to do stuff or commit to scumreads given the King mechanic but this post makes me feel a bit better. Specifically the way he talked about the KCC post in the middle of a post putatively about me felt like, organically folded in. I also kinda liked how he pointed out his approach to Vaimes in addition to mine, I feel like you could remember that as either alignment, but maybe would be more likely to point out something you did as a villager?
Also, Silver, talk to me more about KCC, if you could? And just curious is it crys like Chris or like crystal (I guess they’re the same :p)
can you link that Championship game on MU where you were a wolf?
Point me to which posts, if you could?
The Wonka game I think I linked earlier is the only other wolfgame I’ve played.
Here’s a stable link to this ISO. It was a hydra game, but I was making all the posts, my partner was mostly telling me about her reads in private.
I’m fine with her going for the majority opinion if she wants, so it doesn’t really matter, but do you actually think Vez might be mafia who will publicly shoot some townie?
Catching up now. And my first thought is that Silver's 2656 is good. That lack of paranoia/doubt is one of the harder things to naturally do as scum. Paranoia is easy enough to perform, but the implicit doubting of people's alignments as their reads evolve is harder to change. Much easier to get stuck on reads when there is no doubt.
Exactly. If nacho is scum, I don't think it's likely other scum jumped on that dangerous gambit with him. In fact, I'd guess they'd be far more likely to express caution or doubt to distance, in case it didn't work out and nacho got lynched D2 for it.
I never wavered in voting for DK!
Silver would have been my first choice. You and Asta would have been in the running as well. Asta being particularly tempting.
I am sorry for not catching up this weekend like I hoped to do - new job + coordinating holiday stuff + keeping on top of normal stuff has been a bit overwhelming for me as of late.
What I need in order to contribute to this game at a normal level is to reread the game and gather my thoughts in a reasonable way, and is what I intend to do when I get the opportunity, even if that's a piece by piece type of process and I would like to take some actual time to sit down and respond to actual concerns about me but I just don't have the emotional capacity to bring it right this second. I need to use the V/LA to cut down on my commitments a little so I can start to get things taken care of elsewhere in a way that I haven't lately.
Idk at least hes posting
I guess this is just to say keldeos still a wolf but im rather enjoying having him in this game and maybe id rather kill fonti
Tom: fulcrum/keldeo
Fulcrum: keldeo/rhand
Rhand: nacho/vaimes
Last: vaimes/fulcrum
Vaimes: fulcrum/nacho
Silver: keldeo/rhand
Vezok: nacho/keldeo
Kj: keldeo/silver/kcc
Axel: vaimes
Kcc: nacho
Doesnt have reads:
Proph
dkings
Keldeo
Grape
Nacho
Asta
You said earlier that you were wondering if Killjoy was just faking the tunnel to have an excuse to park on you. But he moved his vote to Axel.
Is your movement off him purely because your TRs were calling your interactions v/v? Do you have any thoughts on his more recent posting? I get you also want to reread the top "wagons," but I want to get into your head here.
Does this affect your Rhand/KJ aligned read? It makes me a little skeptical... well, I guess it would point more in the direction of Rhand v/KJ w being possible, where Rhand just sounds like he is not evaluating because that's how he phrases things, and KJ is faking this Rhand tunnel that Rhand is talking about, but I don't really think KJ is a wolf.
Alternatively/in addition, could you just, like, talk for a bit about why you don't think that it is a w/v world where one of them is faking the tunnel? I don't think it's /that/ hard to fake OMGUS tunneling a villager as a wolf. Rhand spent a lot of time talking about KJ being a wolf and then just went off of him for what seems to me like kind of a thin reason, which doesn't make a ton of sense to me as either alignment really.
I haven’t seen him as scum for a very long time (I don’t think he even has rolled scum this year), so I am not sure what he is capable of.
His read on me didn’t feel as pure, but now that he dropped it, he feels more pure again.
Silver is a whole different story. KJ always claimed he found out how to read me and was wrong every time he thought he had it. He shouldn’t be this sure. Silver is like every townie ever that mislynched me: my posts sound “off” in some way (probably because I am not native English) and that makes people mistrust me all the time to the point where they step into a Rhand tunnel and never leave it.
I think scum!Silver would have left that tunnel by now, seeing there is not much support for it in this game.
What worries me more is Fulcrum’s scum read on me. I don’t recall her ever explaining why she thinks I am scum, she just drops me in her scum pile.
@Anyone that knows Fulcrum’s meta: is that normal behaviour for her?
--
Some townreads in decreasing order of Concerns:
vezokpiraka: Mason claim seems legit for reasons I think I've talked about, and is probably self-resolving.
tomsloger: I didn't reread his d1 but he's been pretty towny recently - he's driving discussion and actually seems to be trying to solve on what feels like a kind of sluggish day so far for a lot of people. It's like, if tom is mafia he's already in a pretty good thread position, he doesn't need to do all of the getting people and himself on record, especially with the King mechanic. You could say that he's pushing me and that has a clear agenda if he's a wolf, but the fact that he's not just mindlessly pushing but is also evaluating other people and other aspects of play makes me feel like there's probably less likely to be an agenda backing it. Also, I enjoy the way he's put forward some reads with an oblique or opaque explanation but then is ready to expand on it (e.g. KJ/Rhand aligned and dkings/Axel not w/w).
My worries here mainly stem from like, general Fear of someone who enjoys wolfing and is good at wolfing. In particular a ~major part of my townread from today is informed by this kind of brazen display of emotion, and he seems like the type of person who'd be able to fake specifically that type of emotion and be cackling in wolfchat all along.
I think if he is a wolf, he's prooobably attempting to get town to eat itself with his “there should be a wolf within the d1 wagons” and “there should be a wolf within the people who pushed for NL” ideas. I also think that if he is a wolf, there's a measure of openwolfing to his play - talking about what he'd be doing as scum, openly admitting that he's preserving me as a mislynch/someone to push later, etc.
But overall, I don't really think he is a wolf.
Lastwhisper: I've played two other games with Wisp, he was town in both, and I got similar enough feels from some of the emotion he's expressed and the types of reads he's made in real time, and I also didn't reeeally want to ISO him so he gets to be here. Recently, I like his approach to my slot today and the way he talked about me to Tom - although I'm more than aware that could be #LeveragingTMIForAPocket from him, especially given the last game we played together, I felt like he was actually trying to get his point across to Tom about how I play? idk, I mean, I don't think he should be a target today and I think the thread's pretty much agreed so I guess I don't feel a pressing need to go more granular than this.
Where I'm concerned is. Wisp's posting style is often hard for me to get a firm read on. I feel that here, as I have been before, I'm just townreading him for a really nebulous and holistic sense of good activity/presence and meta-congruent tone - and holistic reads are where I struggle, and I have not seen him as mafia.
This all feels pretty abstract but there's not a ton concrete that I feel I could hang a read on.
Silvercrys3467: Sort of like Wisp in that he gets “town I guess” status carried over from my day 1 reads, but with a side of “do more when you can” because it feels like he's taken more of a backseat to the thread. I felt really good about him on the first day and I don't think I need to like... convince the thread of those good feels, but. But.
I still have the Keanu Reeves What If theory that he's just floating today and w/w with like, KCC based on EOD1, and some random other people like idk Proph or something. His recent wallpost about me feels better in the "floating" regard. I don't know whether to read his asides in that post of things that could possibly make me town as evenhanded straightforward villager or TMIing mafia but I lean toward the former.
Don't know what to make of him just not reevaluating on Rhand and not really either buttressing or reevaluating the read more. He seems like the type who'd be more thoughtful than to do that as either alignment.
Asta: I found reading Asta a little difficult in the game we just played together, but overall I feel (1) his approach to vezok's claim, (2) his not really seeming concerned about maintaining progressions or putting reasonable logic behind his reads when he seems self conscious in other regards (e.g. talking about why he can't be here), and (3) how he treated me recently in that he had set up to shade me and I feel like he could have gone harder on me if he wanted to, but instead like... ended up talking himself into conceding points on me, which I think is good given the thread state on me, is enough to put him at villagery imo. Also re: (3), I get the feeling if he were mafia he'd be doing this because he's afraid to be wrong, but that doesn't really match up with his d1 play and accusations, or because he wants to pocket me, but that doesn't scan with how he went about presenting the read.
The obvious caveat is that he has not been here that much and produced very little content so I can't be suuuper sure, and I'm not like blown away by his content or tone. But I generally feel alright about this read.
Killjoy: I kind of like his early posting to Gemma about her refusal to talk about Nacho meta - he seemed frustrated not just because she wasn't answering the question but because it felt like he was irritated about not being better equipped to solve her alignment - being frustrated by someone he knew was town could also be an option, and it becoming a scumread is ehh, though. His early thoughts around vezok and Mind don't super feel like he has TMI/wants to preserve me as a ML, respectively. He also seemed to be parsing things for real at EOD yesterday (e.g. the “why is x town again” questions, looking up the claims).
Generally the way he presents his reads and discusses/pushes back on others feels just. Reasonable. I feel like some of his questions/posts speak to a kind of offbeat way of solving that's in the background. I don't know if I could confidently say he's town, I'm also a little concerned he's been a Reasonable Wolf pushing on villagers and kind of coasting so far today since the King mechanic doesn't require a lot of effort to push a ML (see also: discussion with Tom about VAIMESing > solving, when he kind of hasn't done that much since then?), but writing this out there's a good amount in his favor.
At the same time, some of his questions feel empty, like he's asking just to ask. Or like, asking someone to explain something that already seems evident from their original post about it? I guess different people will understand different things? I don't think I'm very good at making reads off questions.
I guess I actually feel like his frustration toward Rhand and vice versa felt real, which would make them less likely w/w.
Also fun fact: there are multiple VAIMESes at pagebottoms in his ISO.
Rhand: Rhand kind of feels like he's playing his own game. His reads are mostly consistent and develop on their own time; he sticks to his guns on some reads even when he seems to be catching criticism for them. At the same time this means a lot of his pushes have been kind of perpendicular to where the thread is going, which makes their validity a bit difficult to judge. Add that to low engagement because of his cruise, and he ends up a bit of a puzzle to me. I would really like people to talk to me about him.
I still like this post about his townread on tom where he talks about what he perceives as tom's reasoning for things. On reflection I don't fully agree with Silver's thought on him walking it back as just "tom's worldview is clear" later on, because it seems like his read is at least partially based on agreeing with tom's worldview (e.g. read on tom's post.) Like, it actually feels like he's trying to solve tom, instead of just like, skimming tom's somewhat hard-to-understand (at least to me) posts.
There's also this post he makes in response to a somewhat critical post from Axel, who he's scum reading for his approach to KCC's claim, where he sort of just goes about defending KCC without probing more into Axel's thoughts there.
He seems to treat Killjoy a lot differently from Silver. Possibly for different thread temperature reasons, but Killjoy wasn't really under a lot of pressure day 1, either? Like he's just really confident about KJ, spends a lot of time talking about him, and then relents because his townreads were saying Killjoy is a villager, which is a development that really confuses me based on the magnitude of tunnel he seemed to be in. But he also voted Grapefruit afterward, who was not a viable wagon either, and his explanation of why he treated these people differently seems to make sense? So like, this probably makes more sense as offbeat town than mafia (what agenda is he pushing?)
Honestly a lot of what he has said just... makes sense as thoughts that someone who is trying to figure out who is mafia might have and post about the game. But there's just nothing screaming at me as town, as well as the bigger picture of me having too many townreads, which are holding me back.
Also don't think he's w/w with Axel for the early pressuring between them, and that one post Axel made that was quoting things Rhand said using quotation marks "like this" felt like throwing the wording back in his face; Axel seems to make that type of post to other people, but there's also the kind of exposing question Rhand asked in return.
Not w/w with Asta for pointing out him having two votes in a tone that was like "is this a mod error?"
Don't really think he's w/w with Fulcrum over his Vezok/Fulcrum worldbuilding early, he could be using that as a way to defend fulcrum but then he got into that conversation with fulcrum about what tom's reads meant. Also him asking fulcrum if she was counterclaiming KCC is a bit ? if partners.
Slothful/Grapefruit21: I liked him enough yesterday on skimming his ISO. I went back and still like a lot of the things that I liked before. There's just a bunch of little mindset things and fiddly details in the way he goes about making his reads that make me think he’s being genuine. Like the mushy pile of townreads thing and his talking himself through Silver when he’d just gotten here. Also loltonereads but I really liked his one post to Silver where he was like "don't be a passenger in your own life." Actually not just tone, it felt like he was giving probably town Silver the impetus to do stuff and spool out a wolfread of Grapefruit himself.
There’s this thread atmosphere thing where he’s in the middle ish of everyone’s reads lists - not top town, not rock bottom - and people seem content with that, but I think? that’s understandable given what he’s done, which is concretely not a lot. His posting today has been pretty meh, but the reason he's given about why is #relatable. Actually I kind of want to go back and check something irt him later.
Axelrod: mmm, so, Axel is one of the people who I feel I wouldn't be able to pull the trigger on today, just from the mechanical fact that his claimed info abilities are pretty good. Even though he has two weaker abilities for the next two seasons (spring > fall) it applies and I feel less motivated to really dig into his ISO because of it.
In terms of behavior, I didn't like how driveby he felt early on, but I feel his posting today about the people on his wagon has been solid, if a bit noncommittal in the end? I kind of want him to take some hard spicy stances. Without a thorough reread, I don't think I have anything super deep to say about him that I haven't already gone into to some extent.
If you want my take on something in particular, let me know and I can probably take a look sooner, since that's a lot easier from mobile.
Actually, had the idea that shooting this slot is good if Proph doesn't impress because we don't get wagon info today and reading into wagon movement on a lurker lynch would be harder anyway, but that's not a super compelling reason on its own.
I guess in the end I just want him to come back and do stuff that I can read him better off of.
You accuse him of being noncommittal, but all the reads you just pushed out are noncommittal too.
@Keldeo: Most of my thoughts begin and end with "Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa" If I were a Pokemon in this thread, it'd be Wooloo baybee
If I hadn't been an idiot and just went ahead and voted, I'd have double-voted Tom king, hands down.
But I glanced through fulcrum, and I dunno
Fulcrum seemed to talk through the DK stuff just fine, preliminary stuff seems on the up and up, so I'm curious if there's something I'm missing there.
Oh, I guess you can put fulcrum as my second choice. To be clear though, I don't think nacho and fulcrum are scum together.
I don't believe scums day one strategy was "hey let's just counterclaim every townie". Especially with both hinting CCs to me.
In a nacho Town world though, I could see fulcrum watching nacho be widely Town read for the misguided CC, and wanting to score some easy Town points for herself the same way.
I'd prefer nacho atm, but either is a valuable flip with decent odds of hitting scum
I now concede that this Day is grueling.
And if Vez is scum, and she is given leeway to shoot anyone she wants, she will shoot a Townie. This will be relatively easy for her to justify, as different people are currently advocating for different choices. This is all I am saying. Letting her shoot whoever she wants either (1) to get a better read on her or (2) because you "trust" her townie-judgment more than majority consensus, seems bad to me.
Or, we could just treat this as a normal lynch and not have any issues.
I keep having problems with this game because I have rarely been able to get, and more importantly stay, fully engagaed here due to being busy IRL and also being around when almost no one else is.
I don't have any really strong scum reads, just a few really strong town reads.
Like I've got several things I've noted that look scummy, but in an [if X, then Y] context. Example: Rhand's jump onto Nacho at EoD D1. It kinda looks like he's trying to ride the wave of negative emotion pointed in Nacho's direction over the season-change/fake CC fiasco. But the timing of it was when people started to move back to KCC late. It looks bad in a scum!KCC world, but in a town!KCC world it's pretty meh.
If there's a gun to my head and I have to pick a top two for vezok, I'd say KCC and Nacho. I really want KCC's alignment resolved, I think it would be the single most important data point at this stage in the game. And Nacho has just fallen off the map since the EoD disaster plus the stuff Axel/Tom talked through a page or two ago (the "switch flip") doesn't make sense. I also didn't love the way he threw subtle shade at my claim a couple times after people unvoted me.
I wouldn't cry over Vaimes or fulcrum. I just don't trust Vaimes, though that is primarily gut-based because his behavior and night action feel off. Fulcrum seemed really convinced her role couldn't co-exist with Axelrod's but then just completely dropped it.
The biggest thing that makes me feel confident it's not a scum gambit is her multiple hints that we should be able to figure out who her mason partner is. I think if vezok was scum who decided to fakeclaim Mason, she would have kept her poker face on as long as possible so the scumteam could follow the flow of the game and strategically choose the right player to claim second mason when it becomes necessary. And this is especially the case knowing they have daychat.
Tom thinks I'm "different," which, yeah, no *****, dude.
Part 1: The thoughts themselves
Vaimes is more likely to get creative with roles in ways that benefit his team, than the other way around. He's not great at putting himself in the other team's perspective. This is reflected in two points:
1.
Vaimes just having the thought of using getting a one-shot masonizer is indicative of him being town. Vaimes later confirmed that DV told him he could take passive abilities. Why believe that? Because it's super awkward for scum!Vaimes to be like "Yeah, I can take passive abilities, but not that passive ability" and it's something we can easily test.
But fonti, doesn't Vaimes always want to be town, so he might have been day dreaming about how he would use the ability as town? Potentially. But, to be in that place emotionally, he'd to be dissatisfied with his scum team, and with their day chat in particular. It would have to be a mostly inactive team, with like proph, asta, dk, grape, rhand, maybe axel,any low poster who also wouldn't be active in scumchat. A combination of those is unlikely, and would probably already be doomed in this game.
Could he have got the idea from somewhere else? Maybe, but based on the incredulousness of thread reactions, I don't think people from this site would have mason idea and given it to Vaimes. Nothing like it was mentioned in the thread before Vaimes claimed and explained his reasoning.
2.
The opposite of the first example, this one shows that Vaimes hasn't been considering his ability from a mafia pov. Vanillaizing, stealing roles for himself, and getting info, are the three main mafia oriented parts of his role. He, or his partners, would have discussed it. I believe the statement is genuine because a.it feels genuine and b. it's followed up with this:
Which is Vaimes writing down his thoughts about his power having the potential to vanillaize as he's having them.
Two things:
1. If you are choosing between killing Vaimes and me, kill me first, and then don't kill him. Do not ignore my read on him after my death.
2. Look, I'm not an expert on how this site's approach to roles has changed over time. Base on the reactions, and other claims, I may have overestimated how close my role is to Axel's. I still firmly believe the overlap in us learning Ability Names is weird. I expect it will be reevaluated later in the game, and my info will be useful at that time. Right now, I see no point in pushing Axel, as I do not have the ability to get him lynched (or to convince Vezok to lynch him) and I'm not sure if I even should.
Scumreads later.