@Nacho
there isnt anything wrong with the KCC lynch, like she isnt super bad or super great, there really isnt a reason for me to go against it
The problem is I dont really see a counter train to it
and I still dont see a reason for her claim if she was a wolf
and in regards to Vaimes, maybe I said it was dumb? idk, its still never going to go through, probably regardless of his alignment
Vaimes is trying super hard to either break his polarized meta, or he is trying super hard to fake his tone, either way I personally think its a great lynch given that I cant 100% lock him as town after 3 weeks
on another note, I do have a personal vendetta against him due to how he always targets me
we have to form a real train in order to give the opportunity for a counter to form.
if vaimes isn't getting lynched today, then your current vote is useless. is there someone who might be getting lynched that you think has a better chance than KCC of being scum that you can vote instead?
DK's entrance came when the initial Axelrod wagon had just ramped up. In this post, he expresses a pretty easy Vaimes-town read which I think is more likely to be scum than not; scum probably don't consider Vaimes to be a viable mislynch in this playerlist, and so they townread him early and forget about him in general. I think him not putting a ton of thought into his Vaimes read is backed up by his post 316 where he drudges up a few Vaimes quotes that don't mean much of anything. I also don't really dig the substance of his attack on Vezok; he attacks Vezok for "mentioning LW in his readslist and not having anything to say about him" (why is this scummy?) and the "it's not like my mind is made up/my mind is made up" contradiction. I'm of the opinion that neither of these things are particularly scummy, but I acknowledge that it could be a clash of playstyle here.
In his second entrance, my problem with him is more his focus than anything else. Like, I understand having problems engaging with the game, but the questions that he asks to get himself back in the game are... 1) asking me why I'm not bothered by Gemma's buddying (but he doesn't really seem to have problems with either of us), 2) why Silver is asking to compare his reads with tom's when tom isn't in his scumlist (but he also doesn't really seem to have problems with silver), and pointing out that KJ's non-align of Silver and I didn't make sense (when he doesn't have a problem with me OR KJ or Silver). If you're lost in the game but you thought that vezok was scummy earlier in the game due to a couple of contradictions, wouldn't you prod vezok a little more instead of throw some odd questions to people that you called town (or townish) earlier in the same post?
I also don't really like his progression on M1ndreaver from this post to this one. The progression of treating M1ndreaver with kid's gloves initially to warming up his spot on M1nd's wagon later feels slimy since the second post comes after it becomes clear the m1nd wagon is sticking around for a while.
This post I also don't like; just feels like he's trying to keep the M1nd wagon alive while he's pushing the Vezok wagon, which is an odd perspective for a townie to take, in my opinion.
I don't really have any significant problems with the big case on Vezok, but I don't like the "there's probably scum in the people who rush voted immediately after" bit. Gemma already pointed this out, but the only thought he had on KCC to this point is that she was buddying KJ with her "KJ is a good player!" comments so the "...and based on her previous behavior..." comes across as filler when there's nothing to back it up. It also tingles my "KCC-DK team"-dar because what better way to frame towncred than "I caught her sheeping my case on town"??? This read can be softened a bit if DK actually has examples of rush votes by scum after a case has been posted.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Probably about time to say the Vaimes vote was a reaction test/for the belief that Vaimes is more polarized under pressure/honestly partly just because I wanted to. But he ended up, like... just posting his final conclusions in response and being like "yeah that's what I think, that's a wrap," which I feel like he would do regardless of alignment, and which makes sense either way because I didn't really have a reason for him to poke at or anything. I don't actually SR him for anything and I'm meh on killing him if it's usually true that he can clear himself later on if town? as long as we stick to that because just not wanting to pull the trigger right now for possible later value can result in the sentiment carrying on, even when unjustified, by inertia.
Unvote
I don't know where to put my vote though, I don't really feel great about wanting to kill anyone.
wrt KCC, on the one hand I see the argument against her, but on the other hand it's not damning to me and/or I keep talking myself out of it. Like, I'm not really, strongly convinced by the case, I feel like I can see both sides. She was sort of just meandering along and that and kind of TRing probably her biggest alternative dk feels... more agendaless than not. But when I go back and look at her posts it's not really anything that I'd see as difficult to fake as mmafia, there is nothing I've seen that makes her a strong townread to me.
The fact that I can see both sides probably makes her a better option than someone I'm townreading?
I also don't really like his progression on M1ndreaver from this post to this one. The progression of treating M1ndreaver with kid's gloves initially to warming up his spot on M1nd's wagon later feels slimy since the second post comes after it becomes clear the m1nd wagon is sticking around for a while.
Sorry, I'm not following this part, could you rephrase or expand on it? I don't really see how the first part is treating my slot with kid gloves, because he is definitely critical of Mind's posts there - not explicitly, but the questions he asks are definitely critical and give me the sense that he's building to a scumread on him, and the later suspicion seems to be following from that. Is the fact that he isn't explicitly SRing Mind in the first post what you're getting at here?
I guess if he thought Mind's Hogan gif was over-the-top in a scummy way, the sort of throwaway/joke response he originally had doesn't make as much sense.
dk's posts all sort of washed over me as "sure okay, this is reasonable," I should probably give them a closer look.
At the moment I'm looking at KCC again to remember what I didn't like about her play. But in the course of doing that I have had a tiny insight on Fulcrum so I'm stopping and posting that. Which is this post:
I'm kind of actually angry about the tom thing, and that's not a healthy response, so I'm going to give myself a break from this for a bit. Ping me if you need me (there are pings, right?).
And my tiny insight is that I don't think this post ever comes from scum, regardless of whether Tom is scum or not. The sentiment being expressed here is too genuine. He's really upset about Tom atm and I don't think that's fake.
If Fulcrum were scum, and Tom was Town, then, he'd either be thinking (1) Tom's got a posting restriction - which is not something to get angry about, or (2) Tom's goofing - which, if you are scum, is not something to get angry about but something to be happy about because his goofing is clearly turning some people off and not helping the Town basically at all.
If Fulcrum was scum with Tom, then they'd be talking about it in the day-chat presumably. And again, there would be no reason for Fulcrum to be upset about it, except in the very, very corner case where he's strongly disagreeing with Tom's (presumably) faking a post restriction and Tom's ignoring his wishes and doing it anyway. In which case the sentiment expressed above - that he's angry with Tom - could be true, but not for the reasons we think.
That's it. Maybe I'm being snowed by an extremely meta/clever post, but I don't think so.
Hey Axel, could you talk a bit more about KCC, particularly her content? You said you were looking for what you didn't like about her earlier, but all you posted was this point on fulcrum and a bit about your earlier post on her leaving V/LA.
Vaimes' posts probably aren't going to pick up in quality. He's pretty consistently... this, across the game as town, but sometimes when he wolfs he falls off and just can't keep it up. This is less true than it was a couple years ago, before which it happened in basically all of his wolf games so he was a pretty easy tone/volume clear by day 2-3.
So it'd less be him clearing himself later and more watching to see if he keeps posting with villagery energy and hoping he isn't having a good wolf game (like he did in, say, Game of Thrones).
Main thing is if he can keep it up he's not really viable partners with most of the thread. I can't really see him posting himself into a F3/F4 with a bunch of lurkers/replacement slots on his team, for example, unless it's like Vaimes/two lurkers/tom or Gemma, or something like that.
I can't tell if grape is defending DK because they're wolves together or if grape is just legit uncertain. I can't say I agree with grape reading axel, fulcrum, and tom as scum right now-- they seem like generally odd choices, but maybe grape saw something I didn't. Axel is back and posting again, so I might better pick up a town/scum read in a little bit when I get back.
FWIW I'm not scum reading Fulcrum, just repeatedly saying I fully believe she'd be able to fool me. If I ignore my repsect/fear of her scum game I'd have her as a squishy town lean.
Anyway:
Silver is town enough for today for all the reasons stated earlier and his vote count digging today.
Last is town for a a few reasons but most strongly a linguistic tell.
Vez is town for the mason claim.
KJ is town for the Rhand saga.
Asta is town for being an agengdaless presence. He could be coached into it but it would require stellar play from him and one of Tom, Nacho, or Fulcrum as a buddy. Maybe Gemma, Axel, Rhand, or DK could pull it off but I think it probably would have to be one of those first 3.
Gemma, DK, Vaimes, Nacho, and Fulcrum are players I'm not interested toDay at all. They've given enough that they either impress me as generally townie without a defining moment or have a moment that gives me doubts they're scum but no overall impression. Vaimes is the closest falling out of that group mostly by peer pressure and self doubt.
That leaves me with Jackrito!slot, KCC, Rhand, Keldeo, Axel, and tom as my pool for toDay. Going to a quick dive on each of those except tom and JacklancerX an see if anything sticks out.
Oh yeah, Grapefruit, what did you like about silver's votecount digging? None of it really came across as something that would be overly difficult to fake as mafia.
Vaimes' posts probably aren't going to pick up in quality. He's pretty consistently... this, across the game as town, but sometimes when he wolfs he falls off and just can't keep it up. This is less true than it was a couple years ago, before which it happened in basically all of his wolf games so he was a pretty easy tone/volume clear by day 2-3.
So it'd less be him clearing himself later and more watching to see if he keeps posting with villagery energy and hoping he isn't having a good wolf game (like he did in, say, Game of Thrones).
Main thing is if he can keep it up he's not really viable partners with most of the thread. I can't really see him posting himself into a F3/F4 with a bunch of lurkers/replacement slots on his team, for example, unless it's like Vaimes/two lurkers/tom or Gemma, or something like that.
I think he's leagues more motivated as town, and quite frankly he cares more
I don't understand why you are ok with this mediocre play, and if he is just a wolf, we lynch him today, and we don't have to worry about this later
Sorry today got crazy and I haven't had time to ISO. Going to try to do them quickly now but I might just focus on KCC since that's the only viable wagon.
@Nacho that was the point of my going through the player list like that. Wanted to narrow down and then strengthen cases. I'd been sticking with my Tom vote because he kept showing up in people's suspects as a secondary option but with him VLA it's not helpful...
@Keldeo I liked it because it's the sort of wide focus I expect from town!Silver. He loves to reevaluate and look at things from multiple angles. And I'm really getting that feel this game. I also think that the differing compositions of the wagons will be relevant it's just hard to say how without flips. It's not enough to clear him but it's enough for me to have a strong D1 read.
I also don't really like his progression on M1ndreaver from this post to this one. The progression of treating M1ndreaver with kid's gloves initially to warming up his spot on M1nd's wagon later feels slimy since the second post comes after it becomes clear the m1nd wagon is sticking around for a while.
Sorry, I'm not following this part, could you rephrase or expand on it? I don't really see how the first part is treating my slot with kid gloves, because he is definitely critical of Mind's posts there - not explicitly, but the questions he asks are definitely critical and give me the sense that he's building to a scumread on him, and the later suspicion seems to be following from that. Is the fact that he isn't explicitly SRing Mind in the first post what you're getting at here?
I guess if he thought Mind's Hogan gif was over-the-top in a scummy way, the sort of throwaway/joke response he originally had doesn't make as much sense.
dk's posts all sort of washed over me as "sure okay, this is reasonable," I should probably give them a closer look.
The piece that bothered me specifically was the transition from "are you drunk?" to "this is so over the top and scummy", yes.
Do you have experience with M1ndreaver's scum game vs his town game? A majority of your commentary on his posts was that he felt fake - do you have a baseline to compare it with?
No, it's not a meta read, its analysis from purely the posts
Why does the wagon being pure matter to you? I understand the concept, using page 1 reads on a fairly strong wagon to supplement your read is pretty confirmation bias-y.
Well, day one reads are all I have right now. Mind being town and that wagon also being pure just doesn't make sense to me at all. So, either Mind slot is scum or I'm very wrong about one of those Town reads and I think the first is a little more likely
In what way is the wagon falling apart indicative of M1nd being scum? If you think the wagon was all town then it was just a matter of townies unvoting unless I'm missing something in your thought process here.
There was this energy of resistance to the Mind wagon, this push to set aside his content, and give him a chance to come back. And then I pop up as the counter wagon, in large part for low activity? No, it doesn't feel right
And Kitty. You have to do something. If you are town here, you have to save yourself. If you are town and I am horribly wrong on you, I am sorry - I am not trying to fit you into the cookie cutter version of how townies need to respond to pressure and how townies need to feel paranoia when pushed, but right now I'm looking from a little fire from you and a little urgency in finding scum and I'm feeling any at all.
If I had a strong case, I'd be pushing it. Also, I kinda understand that if we're going to EOD panic lynch someone, I'm not the worst choice here. Sure, it's a mislynch, but we're not losing any great value role wise.
Like, again, maybe it's not who you are, but we haven't ever played together as far as I can tell - my style as town this game can very easily be described as "bipolar as all hell" and last night a piece of my push on you was "I'm townreading everyone outside of 4 people" and you weren't bothered by that whatsoever? You've spent effort in the thread, I can tell you care about the game, but the only thing you've really posted about who we should kill instead of you are soft nudges on DK and Keldeo?
Please. If you are town. Give me something. Push scum. Don't worry about defending yourself. Don't worry about being wrong. Push scum. Or give me more of your thought process on who you think might be scum and percentages of being scum and who you feel good about town and who you feel great about town; we've gone back and forth where I'm confident that you won't change my mind by defense alone. So, if you are town, I need you to pour yourself into reads, reads, and nothing but reads - I get that you think that expressing reads is pro-scum but transparency is how town finds each other and I can link you game after game after game that town has won because they've been transparent and open; I can show you games where I've posted over 500 times as scum but got utterly wrecked anyways because town has been transparent. You are on the fast track to death at the moment; put your cards on the table
All things considered, I've actually been pretty open with were I am. I think dk vaimes and the Mindslot are each >rand scum. I'm still digging through the vaimes iso, so I might still have some insight one way or the other there
K I'm back! Gonna do stuff now. Got a few pages to read harder.
Welcome, Jackarito and Grape.
@dkingsland: First, do you believe Vezok's claim? You made a big old post in 801 about her, but following her claim on your post back there was a noticeable lack of comment on that. You moved your vote, sure but given the conviction in that read I was expecting a little more. Second question for you here is a two-parter: If you believe the claim, who are the scum pushing him when he claimed, and if you don't believe it, do you think the wagon is pure?
Vezok: If you indeed have a mason partner, they should not claim yet. That role will be much more useful with fewer people alive.
Axel: So you have a reason to scumread him, cool. So you apparently are scumreading him enough for legit want to lynch him.
You didn't actually answer the rest of my question though. Why is [basically inactive player with bravado with no follow through] better than [players who are here and with enough poking you could make a decently strong case against] to lynch? Why are you satisfied with such a weak-ass case?
Vaimes: re: fulcrum's point about defending: Her point is not wholly without merit, Vaimes. Your resistance to it isn't entirely uncalled for either, but her point is mostly correct, I'd say. The only correction I'd make is to say that "removing someone from the lynch list isn't only ignoring, but is also defending." I'm not a huge fan of your reaction to this accusation, nor her vote.
Also while I'm actively scumreading Rhand, I do agree with the focus on LHF. On that point, what do you think about Axel? He's been very vocal about how scummy Mind is. Do you think he's trying to attack the low hanging fruit?
Talk to me about tom as well. He keeps kinda defaulting to voting Mind. Now I think he's voting you. Is he scum?
Same with KCC actually. She's recently made a mini-post about Mind that has him as scum. Is she attacking the low-hanging Mind too?
Discuss those three reads for me.
Silver: Why are you voting Mindreaver, then saying you don't want (a lynching amount of) more votes on him in the next few days? Wouldn't not voting, but declaring he was scum or something achieve that goal a little more?
Fulcrum: On your reads list, you have tom as town(ish). Can you give examples as to why?
God, 915 dropped my read on Asta a bit. Specifically his reads are like, opposite mine quite a few times. Not sure whats up there.
935 possibly feels sincere though. I'll dwell on that.
Rhand: Why does that post (941) make Vaimes look good unless Grape is scum with him?
Gemma: Maybe by 'best poster' he's referring to the poster he's printed out and hung above his bed. It's the only explanation I can find for me being up there as well.
Even though some of the questions in this post of KJ's are kind of leading (specifically the questions to Vaimes are structured a bit like "You said you dislike x, y person did x, are they scum to you?"), I think the way they're formulated is towny. He's not using the question as a proxy to shade y person - he seems to be trying to understand and track the progression of the person he's asking in these questions, and the construction of such a question is probey in that it inherent requires him to notice other people doing x.
I get the feeling of the "energy" KCC mentions above, but I think the desire to get the slot out of the game or subbed is a natural reaction when a player hasn't posted in a lot of days, and I don't think there was that much resistance to my slot's lynch? iirc multiple people seemed okay with hammering.
KCC, could you look back and talk about who specifically you think was pushing the attitude to "set aside Mind's content, and give him a chance to come back", and who you think are the scum who made you pop up as a wagon? Because I do see Nacho's point there that while those ideas mesh in theory, you seem to be townreading the people who in that situation would be mafia (protecting their partner, my slot).
Alright, finally fully caught up! Autautomerging this post so I don't run afoul of forum multiposting rules:
I think KJ's flexibility on the topic of my slot in 958 also feels towny. As tom points out, the read itself doesn't totally mesh with the wagon comp and I suppose he could have been TRing me to grab cred, but that seems a bit on-the-nose when that post is about gaining cred/town points for being right on me in a hypothetical. I'm not swayed by KJ's Rhand case, though. The things he says are unnatural or tonally off read fine to me.
--
Not sure what to make of Wisp's seemingly resigning in post 1014. I feel like the sentiment is kind of towny, and so is his getting other reads out after that. I feel like a mafia there might just take the excuse to just "give up" and drop out of the thread?
--
I want to say the tenor of KCC's question to dk in 1019 is not likely w/w. "assuming the self is mafia to someone who you know knows this and the answer to your question feels revealing" or something like that. Also KCC flipping from townreading to scumreading dk recently, I haven't looked deeply into their other interactions.
Does this make sense?
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I guess the thrust of my pushback against the KCC train is the idea that seeming indifference to solving, indifference to being pushed on, and low-impact/relevance or piecemeal approaches can still come from town. The scumread on her (and also the one on dk?) seems to mostly be general and approach-based, I usually have a harder time grasping this type than something more micro, and her posts all scan fine from a micro standpoint to me. She's noted little things, such as agreeing with KJ/Rhand v/v and clearing Grapefruit, that seem towny in the micro because they make her appear kind of agendaless. But I guess the floaty, one-liner-responses type of wolf doesn't usually need to (or want to) push some agenda strongly. (I think these people are all probably? TMIed town if she is a wolf.)
Dumb read: without context I think 1118-1122 are >rand not w/w, also >rand for grape to be the wolf there if it's w/v
With context now, I still agree with this.
I have liked Grapefruit's observations and remember nebulous good things about Sloth before him , but it's not a super strong read.
@Grapefruit, can you talk about why you townread fulcrum?
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I like the fact of Nacho's read on dk existing.
re: the point about his second entrance, though, I think some aspects of his focus at least are understandable. He doesn't really mention Gemma before that post so I think him asking Nacho why he isn't concerned about Gemma buddying him as a possibility would make sense.
Actually, I'm inclined to say asking a question to a townread about someone who they townread and you have no read on might be more likely to take the form of "why do you townread this person?" instead of "why aren't you concerned about them possibly buddying you?" While I could see town posting the latter still, it's still casting doubt on someone who's probably a villager - though maybe that just speaks to how I personally would phrase the question.
@Nacho, just to clarify, you think that if dk is mafia he's TMIing Vaimes town early on? I know you had Vaimes as lower tier-town earlier, so I guess I'm just asking whether a potential dk mafia flip would solidify your read.
Also, could you talk about why you placed Vaimes there?
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Vaimes, looking forward to your ideas on why not to kill dk and KCC!
--
Roughly ordered townreads:
Vezok
Gemma
Nacho (general solviness and decent posts, don't think The Fear will be going away anytime soon but don't want to go for him today), Silver, KJ, Asta, Wisp (congruence with town tone and approach imo - caveat is that I only have secondhand, old experience with wolf him)
Will be replaced, not interested in killing today: Jackrito/shadowlancerx
I should sleep. Will work on the bottom tier tomorrow, it's irritatingly large because I don't know where to go within it but also irritatingly small because I feel like I might also be clearing too many people.
Gemma, you seem to be in a tunnel with me that I won't be able to to talk you out of, and that just is what it is. But I want to address a couple things that you're wrong or misguided on.
dk, am not tunneled on you by any stretch of the imagination. And while I always appreciation having misconceptions of mine corrected, trying to convince me that I'm wrong about you is just as pointless as me trying to convince you that I'm right about you. Don't tell me that I'm wrong about you, show me that I am.
Am not even voting you right now, am voting KCC, and am following Nacho's lead on where my vote goes because he believes in his KCC vote, I believe in him and it's important to support each other.
Guess I'll talk about 1397 now. Was hoping someone would bite. Don't really feel like I have the luxury to just wait for someone to do so with as little time left to deadline as we have.
Firstly, the inconsistency between him saying he was confbiased on townreading us (1381), and him implying he had been feeling bad about me for some time before I made an analysis post (723) makes me doubt that his stance on me is real. This ultimately isn't a strong point. No one's memory is perfect and am relying on conjecture to a degree because he doesn't seem big on thought process transparency.
Secondly, I think the bottom two quotes in 1397 show some process contradictions in his play here. He has shown that he's inclined to analyze people not voting a wagon over focusing exclusively on wagon votes. He has scumread another player for using arbitrary associations with a wagon to scumread players, which is what he later did with the vezok wagon. These two things are important because, going back to this:
Looks like Mindreaver is gonna be replaced, so I'm going to park my vote here for now. I think it's very likely that exactly one of the rush votes after I posted my case on vezok came from scum, and KCC's is the most dubious when coupled with earlier play.
Why is it very likely? He gives no reason for why he thinks this. The scum motivation here isn't very mysterious: to use the fact that people pushed on a town slot as a way to push them, without actually examining why they pushed on the slot, ignoring the fact that he also pushed on the town slot. KCC is an easy wagon to push, he had already voiced suspicion of her, so he votes her just because, without even looking at why she voted vezok.
Whether or not this is a scummy thing that town!dk is doing or a scummy thing that scum!dk is doing remains to be seen.
I think I can more safely argue now that this is more indicative of scum!dk than town!dk. I know from those posts that I just talked about that he's aware, on a process level, about analyzing a wagon in a way that goes beyond just "scum hop on wagons". He's aware of the scum motivation to do essentially what he did with vezok, and why that's bad process. This makes it hard for me to see his treatment of the vezok wagon and his subsequent justification of it (meta precedents and data-oriented process) as a real town process he has.
It also tingles my "KCC-DK team"-dar because what better way to frame towncred than "I caught her sheeping my case on town"??? This read can be softened a bit if DK actually has examples of rush votes by scum after a case has been posted.
I think it's immaterial whether or not he has the examples. I believe him that his brains deals in data and that's his focus. I just don't think that explains his behavior.
DK's entrance came when the initial Axelrod wagon had just ramped up. In this post, he expresses a pretty easy Vaimes-town read which I think is more likely to be scum than not; scum probably don't consider Vaimes to be a viable mislynch in this playerlist, and so they townread him early and forget about him in general. I think him not putting a ton of thought into his Vaimes read is backed up by his post 316 where he drudges up a few Vaimes quotes that don't mean much of anything. I also don't really dig the substance of his attack on Vezok; he attacks Vezok for "mentioning LW in his readslist and not having anything to say about him" (why is this scummy?) and the "it's not like my mind is made up/my mind is made up" contradiction. I'm of the opinion that neither of these things are particularly scummy, but I acknowledge that it could be a clash of playstyle here.
In his second entrance, my problem with him is more his focus than anything else. Like, I understand having problems engaging with the game, but the questions that he asks to get himself back in the game are... 1) asking me why I'm not bothered by Gemma's buddying (but he doesn't really seem to have problems with either of us), 2) why Silver is asking to compare his reads with tom's when tom isn't in his scumlist (but he also doesn't really seem to have problems with silver), and pointing out that KJ's non-align of Silver and I didn't make sense (when he doesn't have a problem with me OR KJ or Silver). If you're lost in the game but you thought that vezok was scummy earlier in the game due to a couple of contradictions, wouldn't you prod vezok a little more instead of throw some odd questions to people that you called town (or townish) earlier in the same post?
I also don't really like his progression on M1ndreaver from this post to this one. The progression of treating M1ndreaver with kid's gloves initially to warming up his spot on M1nd's wagon later feels slimy since the second post comes after it becomes clear the m1nd wagon is sticking around for a while.
This post I also don't like; just feels like he's trying to keep the M1nd wagon alive while he's pushing the Vezok wagon, which is an odd perspective for a townie to take, in my opinion.
I don't really have any significant problems with the big case on Vezok, but I don't like the "there's probably scum in the people who rush voted immediately after" bit. Gemma already pointed this out, but the only thought he had on KCC to this point is that she was buddying KJ with her "KJ is a good player!" comments so the "...and based on her previous behavior..." comes across as filler when there's nothing to back it up.
/barn
I don't think any of this is a slam dunk. Not even close. I have dk at 60/40 town/mafia - a weak scumread, still more likely to be town than mafia. But it's the strongest scumread I have right now, so am working with what I've got. And that's just me.
also the "correct" thing for KCC to do here if she want to be super transparent is fully claim her role, but I am not going to make her full claim if she doesnt want, I dont live in this world where breadcrumbs and softs always come from wolves like my brother seems to believe
I'd rather just focus on her content, and I don't believe that Axel is any more scummy for wanting to dig more into KCC and her claim
I dont know at this point of Rhand is trying to inflate the how scummy he thinks Axel's question is, is malicious, or just how he sees it
maybe? I can't read her mind, so the only way for me to understand why she did it, is to continue to read her posts and see what she does from here on out
Okay, so, two possibilities here. Either Vaimes didn't care what this discussion was about, but just saw an opening to hop in and throw random shade at me. Or, vaimes actually had some point here that I'm not seeing or understanding.
I get the feeling of the "energy" KCC mentions above, but I think the desire to get the slot out of the game or subbed is a natural reaction when a player hasn't posted in a lot of days, and I don't think there was that much resistance to my slot's lynch? iirc multiple people seemed okay with hammering.
KCC, could you look back and talk about who specifically you think was pushing the attitude to "set aside Mind's content, and give him a chance to come back", and who you think are the scum who made you pop up as a wagon? Because I do see Nacho's point there that while those ideas mesh in theory, you seem to be townreading the people who in that situation would be mafia (protecting their partner, my slot).
I know Gemma was in there, it's what first made me really question her alignment. I'm still iffy on her, but if you're town, I'd feel much better there. It's mostly something I think should be looked at if you do flip scum at some point.
And I'll go back and double check this, but I vaguely remember Vaimes being some of that push back as well. But again, that's almost pointless without flipping you first.
And while I don't think dk pushed against Mind, he certainly helped counter wagon me
I think it's immaterial whether or not he has the examples. I believe him that his brains deals in data and that's his focus. I just don't think that explains his behavior.
It's actually worse that dk does have examples. He has examples of scumTom doing it. And Tom was also one of the quick votes here. But dk instead chose Me, the much softer target
I've been in games with town KCC in the past year and none of the games were remotely like this. I have several reasons to scumread KCC, but I don't really want to discuss them in public. They aren't slam dunks, but they are on the scummy side of things and with almost no town reason to do them.
We have two days left, it would be great if we got a claim today and decide if we want to wagon someone else or lynch KCC.
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Asta is town for being an agengdaless presence. He could be coached into it but it would require stellar play from him and one of Tom, Nacho, or Fulcrum as a buddy. Maybe Gemma, Axel, Rhand, or DK could pull it off but I think it probably would have to be one of those first 3.
This is a weird read. It's pretty hard for Asta to have an agenda when he's only posted 4-5 times and the list of potential partners who could "pull it off" looks arbitrary. You and I have minimal experience together, and from the sound of it you aren't that familiar with fulcrum either. What was your process in compiling that list?
In his second entrance, my problem with him is more his focus than anything else. Like, I understand having problems engaging with the game, but the questions that he asks to get himself back in the game are... 1) asking me why I'm not bothered by Gemma's buddying (but he doesn't really seem to have problems with either of us), 2) why Silver is asking to compare his reads with tom's when tom isn't in his scumlist (but he also doesn't really seem to have problems with silver), and pointing out that KJ's non-align of Silver and I didn't make sense (when he doesn't have a problem with me OR KJ or Silver). If you're lost in the game but you thought that vezok was scummy earlier in the game due to a couple of contradictions, wouldn't you prod vezok a little more instead of throw some odd questions to people that you called town (or townish) earlier in the same post?
You've got that backward. I asked Silver why he asked to compare reads with Tom when he wasn't townreading Tom.
I generally find it off-putting when a player tries to bounce reads off someone early in a game. It gives scum an opportunity to say "oh yeah, I saw that too!" when they want to justify a bad read, or to feel out whether a mislynch they want to push is viable. I acknowledge that town will sometimes do it with their townreads to "compare notes", but I found it odd that Silver asked Tom when he wasn't townreading him (plus PR/gimmick implications). At the time I also had a slight scum read on Silver because of something else he was doing, but he quit doing it so I let it go.
I don't really have any significant problems with the big case on Vezok, but I don't like the "there's probably scum in the people who rush voted immediately after" bit. Gemma already pointed this out, but the only thought he had on KCC to this point is that she was buddying KJ with her "KJ is a good player!" comments so the "...and based on her previous behavior..." comes across as filler when there's nothing to back it up. It also tingles my "KCC-DK team"-dar because what better way to frame towncred than "I caught her sheeping my case on town"??? This read can be softened a bit if DK actually has examples of rush votes by scum after a case has been posted.
Modern, page 3 (easy to find, finished recently). I wouldn't so much call it a "case" since it was early in the game, but I pointed out two scummy things from Killjoy and started a wagon on him. There were four votes within a couple hours, and there was scum in the mix. I'm sure I can find you more examples if you really want, but it would require a dig back into games from years ago.
Firstly, the inconsistency between him saying he was confbiased on townreading us (1381), and him implying he had been feeling bad about me for some time before I made an analysis post (723) makes me doubt that his stance on me is real. This ultimately isn't a strong point. No one's memory is perfect and am relying on conjecture to a degree because he doesn't seem big on thought process transparency.
723 was less about alignment and more about the fact that the gifs-instead-of-words stuff was really annoying me. I just didn't want to be a dick about it, since your enjoyment of the game matters as much as mine does and other people didn't seem to be bothered by it.
On the bolded... that's usually not the case for me at all! I totally get why you would think that though, it's been a side product of my lack of time to devote to this game for much of the day.
It’s a point I was making that I will not be elaborating on until later in the game.
Rhand explained how something is obviously not a motivation in my play. I agreed with how Rhand was describing my approach.
And then, you made this sarcastic comment implying something along the lines of "That's fake selfmeta that shouldn't be believed." Which is both nonsense in context and something I don't think you believe at all. In other words, shade just to shade.
You not wanting to explain this "point" is not making me feel better about it
KCC, could you look back and talk about who specifically you think was pushing the attitude to "set aside Mind's content, and give him a chance to come back", and who you think are the scum who made you pop up as a wagon? Because I do see Nacho's point there that while those ideas mesh in theory, you seem to be townreading the people who in that situation would be mafia (protecting their partner, my slot).
Okay, so, Nacho did this too, saying he hated the Mind wagon, especially Tom, but instead voting me. Which, looking over exactly how that happened, I think would actually make more sense in an unlikely Tom/nacho world than as a partner to your slot. In a scumMind world, I think nacho is probably a townie whose idea other scum used as cover.
Silver also had a stance of: I don't like the Mind wagon, but let's do it quickly. Which, I don't think comes from a mind buddy either.
Hey Axel, could you talk a bit more about KCC, particularly her content? You said you were looking for what you didn't like about her earlier, but all you posted was this point on fulcrum and a bit about your earlier post on her leaving V/LA.
I was looking at KCC's stuff, and I got demotivated. A lot of it is because many of the things that I am not liking about KCC have to do with feeling like she's just off this game - whether it's low posting or low energy or seeming disconnected - but there appear to be irl issues going on here.
And my instinct would normally be to drill down into stuff like that, but I'm getting the feeling that would not be appropriate here. Maybe it's never appropriate. I've been accused of being insensitive before, not just in this game, so, maybe I'll try to be now.
But that leaves me with, what? I don't know.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KCC, it had literally nothing to do with what Rhand said. “You can trust me” was me saying that I wanted to know your role. I quoted a post saying you didn’t want to talk about it, so I thought I was being clear.
The point was a role crumb on my part. Satisfactory?
I personally don’t see all that much difference in KCC’s play from the last two games, so I’d really like for vezok to elaborate on these secret reasons if she can.
Hey Axel, could you talk a bit more about KCC, particularly her content? You said you were looking for what you didn't like about her earlier, but all you posted was this point on fulcrum and a bit about your earlier post on her leaving V/LA.
I was looking at KCC's stuff, and I got demotivated. A lot of it is because many of the things that I am not liking about KCC have to do with feeling like she's just off this game - whether it's low posting or low energy or seeming disconnected - but there appear to be irl issues going on here.
And my instinct would normally be to drill down into stuff like that, but I'm getting the feeling that would not be appropriate here. Maybe it's never appropriate. I've been accused of being insensitive before, not just in this game, so, maybe I'll try to be now.
But that leaves me with, what? I don't know.
This is where I’m at too.
I’m not even confident on lynching KCC anymore, though that may be empathy clouding my judgment. It almost happened with Azrael in Modern until he requested the deadline extension.
Keldeo is reasoned and doesn’t appear to have any agendas, so he’s made that slot look a lot better.
The only thing KCC had said about vezok was that she wanted to go through her posts more closely, which didn't happen
-Because you then cased her, so I decided to use my time catching up first. Then she claimed before I finished reading up, so it was pretty pointless then
KCC, it had literally nothing to do with what Rhand said. “You can trust me” was me saying that I wanted to know your role. I quoted a post saying you didn’t want to talk about it, so I thought I was being clear.
I'm not following, but I don't think I want to. And this feels too convoluted to be fake
Also, are you saying you want me to claim? -I've been debating just getting that out of the way anyway, but I'm not sure if that's going to remove the distraction or cause one
Also, are you saying you want me to claim? -I've been debating just getting that out of the way anyway, but I'm not sure if that's going to remove the distraction or cause one
unvote vote dk
I would like you to claim! I don't care about it causing distractions. That would be a good thing for me.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't know what the votecount is, but you probably should claim. It's not like knowing your role will distract everyone any more or less than saying "I have a scummy role."
I would like you to claim! I don't care about it causing distractions. That would be a good thing for me.
I know you would, but you'd also probably support a mass claim now, so that doesn't say much
Are you saying that you have no faith in me? I'm hurt.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't know what the votecount is, but you probably should claim. It's not like knowing your role will distract everyone any more or less than saying "I have a scummy role."
I just counted... I'm at 4. One is dk, my best guess for scum. One is Gemma acting as nachos double vote. So... not exactly claim range
We are also, you know, 2 days from the deadline. Are the physical votes that necessary?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
we have to form a real train in order to give the opportunity for a counter to form.
if vaimes isn't getting lynched today, then your current vote is useless. is there someone who might be getting lynched that you think has a better chance than KCC of being scum that you can vote instead?
@nacho
In his second entrance, my problem with him is more his focus than anything else. Like, I understand having problems engaging with the game, but the questions that he asks to get himself back in the game are... 1) asking me why I'm not bothered by Gemma's buddying (but he doesn't really seem to have problems with either of us), 2) why Silver is asking to compare his reads with tom's when tom isn't in his scumlist (but he also doesn't really seem to have problems with silver), and pointing out that KJ's non-align of Silver and I didn't make sense (when he doesn't have a problem with me OR KJ or Silver). If you're lost in the game but you thought that vezok was scummy earlier in the game due to a couple of contradictions, wouldn't you prod vezok a little more instead of throw some odd questions to people that you called town (or townish) earlier in the same post?
I also don't really like his progression on M1ndreaver from this post to this one. The progression of treating M1ndreaver with kid's gloves initially to warming up his spot on M1nd's wagon later feels slimy since the second post comes after it becomes clear the m1nd wagon is sticking around for a while.
This post I also don't like; just feels like he's trying to keep the M1nd wagon alive while he's pushing the Vezok wagon, which is an odd perspective for a townie to take, in my opinion.
I don't really have any significant problems with the big case on Vezok, but I don't like the "there's probably scum in the people who rush voted immediately after" bit. Gemma already pointed this out, but the only thought he had on KCC to this point is that she was buddying KJ with her "KJ is a good player!" comments so the "...and based on her previous behavior..." comes across as filler when there's nothing to back it up. It also tingles my "KCC-DK team"-dar because what better way to frame towncred than "I caught her sheeping my case on town"??? This read can be softened a bit if DK actually has examples of rush votes by scum after a case has been posted.
I appreciate your posting whenever and wherever it appears.
I'm also kinda into an Axel wagon rn. That could be fun. I'll look back tomorrow when I've had sleep to hammer out specifics.
Probably about time to say the Vaimes vote was a reaction test/for the belief that Vaimes is more polarized under pressure/honestly partly just because I wanted to. But he ended up, like... just posting his final conclusions in response and being like "yeah that's what I think, that's a wrap," which I feel like he would do regardless of alignment, and which makes sense either way because I didn't really have a reason for him to poke at or anything. I don't actually SR him for anything and I'm meh on killing him if it's usually true that he can clear himself later on if town? as long as we stick to that because just not wanting to pull the trigger right now for possible later value can result in the sentiment carrying on, even when unjustified, by inertia.
Unvote
I don't know where to put my vote though, I don't really feel great about wanting to kill anyone.
wrt KCC, on the one hand I see the argument against her, but on the other hand it's not damning to me and/or I keep talking myself out of it. Like, I'm not really, strongly convinced by the case, I feel like I can see both sides. She was sort of just meandering along and that and kind of TRing probably her biggest alternative dk feels... more agendaless than not. But when I go back and look at her posts it's not really anything that I'd see as difficult to fake as mmafia, there is nothing I've seen that makes her a strong townread to me.
The fact that I can see both sides probably makes her a better option than someone I'm townreading?
Sorry, I'm not following this part, could you rephrase or expand on it? I don't really see how the first part is treating my slot with kid gloves, because he is definitely critical of Mind's posts there - not explicitly, but the questions he asks are definitely critical and give me the sense that he's building to a scumread on him, and the later suspicion seems to be following from that. Is the fact that he isn't explicitly SRing Mind in the first post what you're getting at here?
I guess if he thought Mind's Hogan gif was over-the-top in a scummy way, the sort of throwaway/joke response he originally had doesn't make as much sense.
dk's posts all sort of washed over me as "sure okay, this is reasonable," I should probably give them a closer look.
Hey Axel, could you talk a bit more about KCC, particularly her content? You said you were looking for what you didn't like about her earlier, but all you posted was this point on fulcrum and a bit about your earlier post on her leaving V/LA.
So it'd less be him clearing himself later and more watching to see if he keeps posting with villagery energy and hoping he isn't having a good wolf game (like he did in, say, Game of Thrones).
Main thing is if he can keep it up he's not really viable partners with most of the thread. I can't really see him posting himself into a F3/F4 with a bunch of lurkers/replacement slots on his team, for example, unless it's like Vaimes/two lurkers/tom or Gemma, or something like that.
I think he's leagues more motivated as town, and quite frankly he cares more
I don't understand why you are ok with this mediocre play, and if he is just a wolf, we lynch him today, and we don't have to worry about this later
@Nacho that was the point of my going through the player list like that. Wanted to narrow down and then strengthen cases. I'd been sticking with my Tom vote because he kept showing up in people's suspects as a secondary option but with him VLA it's not helpful...
@Keldeo I liked it because it's the sort of wide focus I expect from town!Silver. He loves to reevaluate and look at things from multiple angles. And I'm really getting that feel this game. I also think that the differing compositions of the wagons will be relevant it's just hard to say how without flips. It's not enough to clear him but it's enough for me to have a strong D1 read.
Think you're right that this is a net positive for her unless she's scum with DK.
The piece that bothered me specifically was the transition from "are you drunk?" to "this is so over the top and scummy", yes.
Well, day one reads are all I have right now. Mind being town and that wagon also being pure just doesn't make sense to me at all. So, either Mind slot is scum or I'm very wrong about one of those Town reads and I think the first is a little more likely
There was this energy of resistance to the Mind wagon, this push to set aside his content, and give him a chance to come back. And then I pop up as the counter wagon, in large part for low activity? No, it doesn't feel right
If I had a strong case, I'd be pushing it. Also, I kinda understand that if we're going to EOD panic lynch someone, I'm not the worst choice here. Sure, it's a mislynch, but we're not losing any great value role wise.
All things considered, I've actually been pretty open with were I am. I think dk vaimes and the Mindslot are each >rand scum. I'm still digging through the vaimes iso, so I might still have some insight one way or the other there
Off the cuff feelings are that I don’t want to lunch dk or KCC, will try to substantiate a bit later today. Will vote to ensure a lunch.
Even though some of the questions in this post of KJ's are kind of leading (specifically the questions to Vaimes are structured a bit like "You said you dislike x, y person did x, are they scum to you?"), I think the way they're formulated is towny. He's not using the question as a proxy to shade y person - he seems to be trying to understand and track the progression of the person he's asking in these questions, and the construction of such a question is probey in that it inherent requires him to notice other people doing x.
KCC, could you look back and talk about who specifically you think was pushing the attitude to "set aside Mind's content, and give him a chance to come back", and who you think are the scum who made you pop up as a wagon? Because I do see Nacho's point there that while those ideas mesh in theory, you seem to be townreading the people who in that situation would be mafia (protecting their partner, my slot).
I think KJ's flexibility on the topic of my slot in 958 also feels towny. As tom points out, the read itself doesn't totally mesh with the wagon comp and I suppose he could have been TRing me to grab cred, but that seems a bit on-the-nose when that post is about gaining cred/town points for being right on me in a hypothetical. I'm not swayed by KJ's Rhand case, though. The things he says are unnatural or tonally off read fine to me.
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Not sure what to make of Wisp's seemingly resigning in post 1014. I feel like the sentiment is kind of towny, and so is his getting other reads out after that. I feel like a mafia there might just take the excuse to just "give up" and drop out of the thread?
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I want to say the tenor of KCC's question to dk in 1019 is not likely w/w. "assuming the self is mafia to someone who you know knows this and the answer to your question feels revealing" or something like that. Also KCC flipping from townreading to scumreading dk recently, I haven't looked deeply into their other interactions.
Does this make sense?
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I guess the thrust of my pushback against the KCC train is the idea that seeming indifference to solving, indifference to being pushed on, and low-impact/relevance or piecemeal approaches can still come from town. The scumread on her (and also the one on dk?) seems to mostly be general and approach-based, I usually have a harder time grasping this type than something more micro, and her posts all scan fine from a micro standpoint to me. She's noted little things, such as agreeing with KJ/Rhand v/v and clearing Grapefruit, that seem towny in the micro because they make her appear kind of agendaless. But I guess the floaty, one-liner-responses type of wolf doesn't usually need to (or want to) push some agenda strongly. (I think these people are all probably? TMIed town if she is a wolf.)
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With context now, I still agree with this.
I have liked Grapefruit's observations and remember nebulous good things about Sloth before him , but it's not a super strong read.
@Grapefruit, can you talk about why you townread fulcrum?
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I like the fact of Nacho's read on dk existing.
re: the point about his second entrance, though, I think some aspects of his focus at least are understandable. He doesn't really mention Gemma before that post so I think him asking Nacho why he isn't concerned about Gemma buddying him as a possibility would make sense.
Actually, I'm inclined to say asking a question to a townread about someone who they townread and you have no read on might be more likely to take the form of "why do you townread this person?" instead of "why aren't you concerned about them possibly buddying you?" While I could see town posting the latter still, it's still casting doubt on someone who's probably a villager - though maybe that just speaks to how I personally would phrase the question.
@Nacho, just to clarify, you think that if dk is mafia he's TMIing Vaimes town early on? I know you had Vaimes as lower tier-town earlier, so I guess I'm just asking whether a potential dk mafia flip would solidify your read.
Also, could you talk about why you placed Vaimes there?
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Vaimes, looking forward to your ideas on why not to kill dk and KCC!
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Roughly ordered townreads:
Vezok
Gemma
Nacho (general solviness and decent posts, don't think The Fear will be going away anytime soon but don't want to go for him today), Silver, KJ, Asta, Wisp (congruence with town tone and approach imo - caveat is that I only have secondhand, old experience with wolf him)
Will be replaced, not interested in killing today: Jackrito/shadowlancerx
Other people, alphabetical: Axelrod, dkingsland967, fulcrum, Grapefruit21/Slothful, KittyCupCake, Rhand, tomsloger, Vaimes
I should sleep. Will work on the bottom tier tomorrow, it's irritatingly large because I don't know where to go within it but also irritatingly small because I feel like I might also be clearing too many people.
Am not even voting you right now, am voting KCC, and am following Nacho's lead on where my vote goes because he believes in his KCC vote, I believe in him and it's important to support each other.
Guess I'll talk about 1397 now. Was hoping someone would bite. Don't really feel like I have the luxury to just wait for someone to do so with as little time left to deadline as we have.
Firstly, the inconsistency between him saying he was confbiased on townreading us (1381), and him implying he had been feeling bad about me for some time before I made an analysis post (723) makes me doubt that his stance on me is real. This ultimately isn't a strong point. No one's memory is perfect and am relying on conjecture to a degree because he doesn't seem big on thought process transparency.
Secondly, I think the bottom two quotes in 1397 show some process contradictions in his play here. He has shown that he's inclined to analyze people not voting a wagon over focusing exclusively on wagon votes. He has scumread another player for using arbitrary associations with a wagon to scumread players, which is what he later did with the vezok wagon. These two things are important because, going back to this:
I think I can more safely argue now that this is more indicative of scum!dk than town!dk. I know from those posts that I just talked about that he's aware, on a process level, about analyzing a wagon in a way that goes beyond just "scum hop on wagons". He's aware of the scum motivation to do essentially what he did with vezok, and why that's bad process. This makes it hard for me to see his treatment of the vezok wagon and his subsequent justification of it (meta precedents and data-oriented process) as a real town process he has.
And that is why I disagree with Nacho on this:
I think it's immaterial whether or not he has the examples. I believe him that his brains deals in data and that's his focus. I just don't think that explains his behavior.
As for the rest of Nacho's post,
I don't think any of this is a slam dunk. Not even close. I have dk at 60/40 town/mafia - a weak scumread, still more likely to be town than mafia. But it's the strongest scumread I have right now, so am working with what I've got. And that's just me.
Here's a Vaimes post that caught my attention early. For reference, this is the full exchange:
Vaimes, can you clarify this at all?
I've liked them unfortunately
I know Gemma was in there, it's what first made me really question her alignment. I'm still iffy on her, but if you're town, I'd feel much better there. It's mostly something I think should be looked at if you do flip scum at some point.
And I'll go back and double check this, but I vaguely remember Vaimes being some of that push back as well. But again, that's almost pointless without flipping you first.
And while I don't think dk pushed against Mind, he certainly helped counter wagon me
It’s a point I was making that I will not be elaborating on until later in the game.
It's actually worse that dk does have examples. He has examples of scumTom doing it. And Tom was also one of the quick votes here. But dk instead chose Me, the much softer target
I've been in games with town KCC in the past year and none of the games were remotely like this. I have several reasons to scumread KCC, but I don't really want to discuss them in public. They aren't slam dunks, but they are on the scummy side of things and with almost no town reason to do them.
We have two days left, it would be great if we got a claim today and decide if we want to wagon someone else or lynch KCC.
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Is it because you know that they are not slam dunks, that u don't want to say them in the off chance you are pushing everyone to vote a townie?
KCC as a whole isn't any different from the other games I saw her in when I was a wolf
So you giving me reason that I haven't noticed, would be great, but it's still unlikely I vote her given her claim
I probably haven't since I've been quite scatter-brained and my attention has been elsewhere for much of this game, but it's not that much to discuss.
Last is one of my strongest townreads, which I've definitely mentioned.
Tom voiced a scumread on vezok and had her at the bottom of his reads list long before I posted my case.
The only thing KCC had said about vezok was that she wanted to go through her posts more closely, which didn't happen.
This is a weird read. It's pretty hard for Asta to have an agenda when he's only posted 4-5 times and the list of potential partners who could "pull it off" looks arbitrary. You and I have minimal experience together, and from the sound of it you aren't that familiar with fulcrum either. What was your process in compiling that list?
You've got that backward. I asked Silver why he asked to compare reads with Tom when he wasn't townreading Tom.
I generally find it off-putting when a player tries to bounce reads off someone early in a game. It gives scum an opportunity to say "oh yeah, I saw that too!" when they want to justify a bad read, or to feel out whether a mislynch they want to push is viable. I acknowledge that town will sometimes do it with their townreads to "compare notes", but I found it odd that Silver asked Tom when he wasn't townreading him (plus PR/gimmick implications). At the time I also had a slight scum read on Silver because of something else he was doing, but he quit doing it so I let it go.
Modern, page 3 (easy to find, finished recently). I wouldn't so much call it a "case" since it was early in the game, but I pointed out two scummy things from Killjoy and started a wagon on him. There were four votes within a couple hours, and there was scum in the mix. I'm sure I can find you more examples if you really want, but it would require a dig back into games from years ago.
723 was less about alignment and more about the fact that the gifs-instead-of-words stuff was really annoying me. I just didn't want to be a dick about it, since your enjoyment of the game matters as much as mine does and other people didn't seem to be bothered by it.
On the bolded... that's usually not the case for me at all! I totally get why you would think that though, it's been a side product of my lack of time to devote to this game for much of the day.
Rhand explained how something is obviously not a motivation in my play. I agreed with how Rhand was describing my approach.
And then, you made this sarcastic comment implying something along the lines of "That's fake selfmeta that shouldn't be believed." Which is both nonsense in context and something I don't think you believe at all. In other words, shade just to shade.
You not wanting to explain this "point" is not making me feel better about it
Okay, so, Nacho did this too, saying he hated the Mind wagon, especially Tom, but instead voting me. Which, looking over exactly how that happened, I think would actually make more sense in an unlikely Tom/nacho world than as a partner to your slot. In a scumMind world, I think nacho is probably a townie whose idea other scum used as cover.
Silver also had a stance of: I don't like the Mind wagon, but let's do it quickly. Which, I don't think comes from a mind buddy either.
So, maybe this isn't a thing.
And my instinct would normally be to drill down into stuff like that, but I'm getting the feeling that would not be appropriate here. Maybe it's never appropriate. I've been accused of being insensitive before, not just in this game, so, maybe I'll try to be now.
But that leaves me with, what? I don't know.
The point was a role crumb on my part. Satisfactory?
This is where I’m at too.
I’m not even confident on lynching KCC anymore, though that may be empathy clouding my judgment. It almost happened with Azrael in Modern until he requested the deadline extension.
Keldeo is reasoned and doesn’t appear to have any agendas, so he’s made that slot look a lot better.
And vezok was my only other real scumread.
I'm not following, but I don't think I want to. And this feels too convoluted to be fake
Also, are you saying you want me to claim? -I've been debating just getting that out of the way anyway, but I'm not sure if that's going to remove the distraction or cause one
unvote vote dk
Both me and axel have asked you to claim. Why is Vaimes opinion more important than ours?
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I just counted... I'm at 4. One is dk, my best guess for scum. One is Gemma acting as nachos double vote. So... not exactly claim range
With 17 Alive it takes 9 to Lynch
IDK, Fulcrum puts me at 7ish for a claim
Are we ready?
I am Pan.
My powers include...
A delay ability!
A second, more convoluted delay ability!!
A bus drive effect!!!
And...
A role block! With the kicker...
Drumroll please
The RB can't stop the NK!!!!
I'd be such an amazing scum JoaT... except I'm town
@kcc