1. How do you feel about Rhand "locking onto Killjoy" for some of the portion on Day 1? You talked about Killjoy's interactions towards Rhand, but you don't talk about how Rhand treated KJ. I recall that Rhand strongly scumread KJ for some portion of Day 1 then dropped the read later on; how does this make you feel about KJ's alignment?
I can answer this one for now, I gotta check back on the other to see what pushes I was talking about
I wrote about this in my notes
Killjoy – day 1 we had that back and fourth with him and Rhand, and Rhand was certain he was wolf, because town!killjoy should be less confident? I mean what if this is true, what if this is just Killjoy tmi’ing Rhand as a wolf, possibly trying to do some early scum theater. I can’t recall if Rhand ever revisited Killjoy, so I will come back to this. Placeholder read, since I still think Killjoy is one of the most natural players in this game. The biggest problem here is like Rhand goes from being a wolf to being rarely talked about again
Like if you look through Killjoy's iso, he never mentions Rhand again, which is why I keep coming back to a Rhand/Killjoy team, like I dont think saying, "Why would Rhand push his buddy so hard", means much of anything given that we probably arent going to lynch killjoy day 1 anyways. If you believe someone is a wolf, you either keep believing it, or re-evaluate them, which Killjoy did neither, the read and pressure just kinda disappeared
Killjoy also keeps shading me I personally believe, even if he thinks otherwise. Like he talks about mine and Kcc's interactions, and then says I can be a wolf, out of no where
Quote from KJ »
Last and KCC aren't aligned probably.
But annoyingly, Last might be scum, so one of those is probably wrong.
but he is still stuck in the PoE that everyone else has, as you can see here
Quote from KJ »
Also Axel probably fine due to Rhand votes.
Still probably a scum for NL d1.
KCC/Keldeo/Rhand/? Fits in with my reads.
so that's why I feel like it is fabricated
and here again
Quote from KJ »
Last continues to maybe be scum.
Quote from KJ »
Honestly I'm understanding your mindset just fine.
Your continued push to try to get people to townread me less has no sincerity behind it. You don't believe your assertions.
there is no attempt to understand my thoughts, and IDK why he concludes that I dont believe my assertions
he never even breaks down why?
Quote from KJ »
Wisp: Your offense at my scumread is weird. I don't understand why that's happening. You're not some paragon of towniness.
I'm wondering if it would be more telling for your alignment if I just don't tell you why I'm scumreading you. I might just do that.
@Grape: I'm wondering if Last did stop the kill, but didn't know he would, while scum. If he doesn't know what his abilities do, then his role would certainly fit as scum. Also I wonder what that implies as to the quantity of killing power on the town side.
Why can't I be offended? and Why does being offended make me a wolf?
There is no way I stopped the kill, since there is no reason to believe a n0 action affected the n1 kill, and if it did, why does me having this ability make it more likely I am a wolf? Why does me not knowing what my abilities do, fit more as a wolf?
but see its all about context, maybe you believe this, or maybe u dont? but I really dont see why you would think this as town? also you arent no paragon of towniness either, and a lot of your posts towards me come off as needlessly aggressive for no reason
so ya, those are my thoughts on Killjoy without re-reading the entirety of his iso
@Proph
what do I mean by emotions? my real time posts can 180 on a dime due to emotions, sometimes I dont even necessarily believe or care what I am saying when I am triggered by posts in the thread
@Proph
what do I mean by emotions? my real time posts can 180 on a dime due to emotions, sometimes I dont even necessarily believe or care what I am saying when I am triggered by posts in the thread
How do expect anyone to listen to you? You are just forcing people to ignore you, which is unfortunate considering you have the most posts in the game by, like, a lot.
My question is whether this is actually your strategy, to post so much and be so variable that no one can ever read you. Which might be effective, I suppose, but, man, it's a bear to play with.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@axelrod
I am trying to work on it honestly, and this isnt even a problem on any new site I join
this continues to be a problem on sites that I have been in for a while, since there seems to be this stigma around the way I play and my thoughts
Proph asked a question and I answered it, but even if sometimes I am a wildcard, you should at least try to see what my perspective is
like when people don't know me, I can talk to them, I can try to understand them, and they can try to understand me
here its just "lol wisp"
Killjoy sees me wolf read him, and he just says, "its fabricated"
and then I get attacked
"I dont need your permission to scum read you"
imagine having the most posts in the game and someone just says, "I think thoughts are fabricated"
sure I can top post as a wolf, we've seen it, but the content is massively different in terms of actual content
I could try to play like Keldeo and respond calmly, but personality wise I can't, but if Killjoy took the time to actually look at my posts, and give a real read than sure
we are literally mass claiming here, but killjoy doesn't need to because hes been cop-checked by a dude some of us don't even trust?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'll have the Rhand ISO done soon, was busier than expected this weekend and he has a lot of content to sift through. This game being so large makes rereading a chore tbh.
Mostly just waiting here for Keldeo to come back and address the stuff that's been addressed to him.
Silver: Is your progression on me literally "Proph is probably scum due to PoE" -> I claim -> "Yeah that claim's probably not a wolf claim"? Kind of want to echo Last's question of what you think about my behavior aside from a general "everyone's playing fine".
Last: Thanks for answering. Yeah, I just realized that the only way KJ can be scum is if fulcrum/KJ/Rhand/X are a team which.. could be the case? I dunno, it'd kind of shock me if KJ was scum given how townie he was on Day 1.
Feels like it's only productive to investigate scum!KJ worlds only in worlds where fulcrum flips mafia, because he literally has a confirmed inno check on him by two people (fulcrum and Vaimes, who is backing up fulcrum's ability).
Quote from Lastwhisper »
@Proph
what do I mean by emotions? my real time posts can 180 on a dime due to emotions, sometimes I dont even necessarily believe or care what I am saying when I am triggered by posts in the thread
Fair enough; I know how you play.
Can you answer the last question about fulcrum? Specifically - what pushes do you think are "easy" coming from fulcrum? You state that she has made some easy pushes but I don't know what those are.
Hi! I've only skimmed since I was last here, and I am too tired now to go through thoroughly and respond to everything, sorry. I don't know if I'll be able to be around tonight either, so I'll try to answer questions and finish looking at people by Tuesday or Wednesday. ^^"
Anyway, again, don't hammer please. Let me get my thoughts out about people and defend myself and see if I can change your minds, and even if you don't think you're changing your mind, then do it to let other people get their thoughts out and get the most out of that Friends chat thing.
--
Vezok is confirmed mason.
Killjoy's not mafia, according to fulcrum and Vaimes. I'm not entirely sure why fulcrum would take this line if Killjoy were not her partner (i.e. if he were 3p, all she would know was that he was not mafia). I don't really think he's fulcrum's partner, either. KJ and fulcrum had this multi-post conversation early on about Killjoy being suspicious of Gemma withholding meta on Nacho, where Killjoy presented his suspicion to fulcrum asking for feedback, and fulcrum sort of leveraged a theory about what Gemma was doing to dismiss it, despite Killjoy continuing to ask her about it. I feel like that conversation would have looked different if they were partners, which is about the vaguest way I can put it but that's how I feel. Also I think Rhand and KJ's early interactions are not w/w.
Sure there's the tinfoil theory of KJ/Vaimes/fulcrum being like a third party cult faction or something, but it's a bit too out there for me to want to entertain right now. Also, I wanted to note that fulcrum softed a positive result on KJ yesterDay, so it can't have been something she made up toDay.
#mechanics
I talked about this in broad terms earlier, but Rhand's approach to Vaimes's claim on day 2 seems pretty not partners-y. He's really consistently critical, when he'd have room not to be. (2362, 2602) Vaimes's posts back at him are also fairly incredulous - e.g. 2589. The fun part here is Rhand playing coy about how his role and Vaimes's role couldn't coexist as town, when actually the similarity was pretty tenuous. To me, that feels a lot more likely to be something he'd do to a townie while avoiding responsibility for his push until he had to claim, than something he'd do to a buddy. It's crossed my mind that Rhand could have manufactured the push to get them cred but I feel like Vaimes was in a pretty decent position given fulcrum defending him (pre-him giving her an item, even), so there would really be no need to do that.
Asta hasn't done anything strong one way or the other, but I don't think his role is mafia. I doubt Rhand picked out something bad about his partner Asta and gave him a lean scum instead of leaving him at another null in his post 300. I kind of doubt Rhand calls out Asta voting twice in a tone that seems like he was surprised by it, if he's partners with him. I kiiind of doubt partner Asta behaves like he did toward Rhand yesterday, his double vote kept the wagon going.
Vaimes confirmed fulcrum's ability, and like I said, I don't really see Fulcrum clearing a non-partner like that, or being partners with specifically KJ. There's also the not w/w with Rhand stuff I noted on like D2 (2958), which I ~still believe in.
If we're flipping me today, get dkings to reevaluate and stuff after. Maaaybe look at him if he's alive in like late endgame, because I don't have enough wolves, the mod confirmation thing is weird, I get more of a sense of agenda from dkings than from Asta, Rhand pushing for a third wagon EOD1 maybe makes some amount of sense if dkings/KCC is w/w. Bodyguard probably isn't mafia, though? And dkings said some things that would be really on the nose if dkings/KCC/Rhand/.. was the team (2474). Also, dkings has probably locked himself into pushing KCC after me given what he's said about Rhand? So I'd probably even-more-mostly-clear him if KCC flips w at some point.
I haven't finished looking at KCC/Rhand stuff either, but she's the person I'd like to kill most out of the people I got a chance to look at. Rhand had da strong townread on her for most of the game, which isn't bad in itself but specifically I feel as though Rhand would have flipped on her at some point if he could push her as a mislynch, which has definitely been plausible, but he kept going on a strong townread of her from her first posts, meta reasons, and her voting Nacho with him day 1. You can look at Rhand walking back his early meta-ish townread of Mindreaver as an example of him opening up a mislynch opportunity as the thread attitudes shifted.
Silver: Is your progression on me literally "Proph is probably scum due to PoE" -> I claim -> "Yeah that claim's probably not a wolf claim"? Kind of want to echo Last's question of what you think about my behavior aside from a general "everyone's playing fine".
Yep, solving the game with mechanics because my behavioral reads are a big mush and I don't really have time to iso a bunch of people, plus game feels solvable from claims
This isn't a clear, exactly, you (and most other people) could be +1 on a team with Keldeo/Axelrod or something, but there's definitely one in KCC/Keldeo and one in Axel/Fulcrum because that's what wolves need in the set up so I want to lunch those and see where we end up
That +1 is going to be hard probably but I'm planning on being dead by then lmao
I don't think wolf!fulcrum loses anything by clearing town!killjoy who has been widely town read and probably wasn't going to be mislunched even if I thunderdomed him, like, if he's town he's already on the short list for the night kill. Most players in the game right now are mislunchable down the line, it's basically just KJ and vezok with little/no suspicion on them.
@Killjoy
and after sleeping, the problem really isnt that my push is forced, the problem is that I think there are both solid cases on why you can be town, and thoughts on why you could be a wolf
like I have even poked at some of your posts for being super townie
so I guess forgive me if I dont have enough conviction for someone who is uninformed that thinks a dude that is basically cop checked might be a wolf, because everything just seems so "easy"
This isn't a clear, exactly, you (and most other people) could be +1 on a team with Keldeo/Axelrod or something, but there's definitely one in KCC/Keldeo and one in Axel/Fulcrum because that's what wolves need in the set up so I want to lunch those and see where we end up
So, I ask this (1) without going to look up wherever you explained your thought process about this before, and (2) without having taken the time to think through all the claims and/or ramifications thereof myself yet.
Nevertheless, I would be very interested if you would walk me (slowly) through your reasoning as to why there is "definitely" one scum in KCC/Keldeo and one in Me/Fulcrum "because that's what wolves need in the set up." I would like to hear you lay it out, and then I'm going to decide if I agree with it or not. Deal?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@keldeo
I still havent fully read you tbh, and this has nothing to do with the posts you've made, but I still think that mind's post about, "I wont let myself become a mislynch", is completely left field from the tone that I saw him use in a game where I know he was mafia, its not super strong and probably not a fair read given the content you produced, but thats just something I currently have in my head
I updated this with a few more details. Also, I got the /spoiler working again, though it's very buggy for me for some reason and sometimes stops working randomly.
Silver:
Aeolus, Town Investigator
Spring: None
Summer: Winds of Portence (Target player, learn the name of an ability that can only be used Next season (i.e. Fall?)
N1: Targeted Proph and learned the name of his “Spring” ability (because that was going to be the “next” season, technically?)
Fall: Winds of Knowledge (Target living and dead player, learn if the living ever targeted the dead)
N3: Target Gemma and Keldeo. Keldeo has not targeted Gemma this game
Winter: Winds of Past (Target player, learn if they were targeted on a past night (that you choose? Not just all nights)
Lastwhisper:
Morpheus, Town Dreaming God
Has six “Dreams.” Chooses one each Night (including pregame?) Does not know what they do. Names appear in the Morning Scene.
Past
Tranquility – N0 (we had no kill on N1?)
Revenge
Friendship – N3 (random neighborhood created for one cycle? LW, KCC and fulcrum in the hood.)
Leadership – N1 (we had to elect someone to decide the lynch the next day?)
Prophecy – N2 (we needed a super-majority to lynch the next day?)
KCC:
Pan, Town Trickster
Spring: Role-Block
N2: RB Prpoh.
Summer: 2-shot bus drive (that can use with other abilities? What other abilities?)
N1: Target Axelrod and Nacho
Fall: Delay
N3: Unclaimed?
Winter: Target a player. The player who next targets that player will be delayed for their next action.
Vezokpiraka:
Thisbe, Fated Mason
Mason with Grapefruit – confirmed
Fulcrum:
?
Spring: Dreams of Future (passive. Learn the name of a Non-mafia who took an action)
-Learned Killjoy
-N2 - Targeted by Vaimes. Traded away this Spring ability for a Tracker ability.
Summer: none
Fall: Dream of Certainty (passive. Learn the names of two players with abilities restricted to those seasons)
-Learned Proph and Silver
-N3 - Tracked Keldeo. Keldeo did not target anyone this Night.
Winter: Dream of Naming (passive. Learn the name of a random Winter ability)
Killjoy:
?
Unclaimed
Took an action N2 (Spring)
N3 – Traded (something) with Vaimes for BP vest.
Keldeo:
Mab, Town Winter Queen
Spring: None
Summer (Preparation for Winter – Target during the day. Target will be RB the following night)
D1: Target fulcrum
D2: Target DKing
Fall: None
Winter (Queen of Winter – RB. If successfully prevent a non-factional ability, lose this and gain a copy of that ability)
Prophylaxis:
Prospero, Town Enchanter
Spring – Give a Green Orb (If a player with a Green Orb targets a player with a Green or Orange Orb they are RBed)
N2 – Targeted dkings with a Green Orb. Role-blocked (by KCC)
Summer – Give a Yellow Orb (If a player with a Yellow Orb targets a player with a Yellow or Orange Orb their ability name is told to the targeted player)
N1 – Targeted Axel with Yellow Orb. Re-directed to Nacho.
Fall – Give an Orange Orb (Don’t do anything, but make the other Orbs work)
N3 - Unclaimed
Winter – Give a Blue Orb (If a player with a Blue Orb targets a player with a Blue or Orange Orb that player is protected from a NK attempt)
Also X times, can give out an Orb of any color during the Day.
D1: Targeted Vezok with a Blue Orb
When he does, Orbs start disappearing at a rate of 2 per season, starting with the most recent
Vaimes:
Rumplestiltskin, Town Dealmaker
Each night(?) can target a player and offer them a choice of three items
1-shot Tracker
BP vest
2-shot Message sender
Vaimes gains a 1-shot version of the ability which is traded to him.
N1: Target Vezok. No effect. Confirmed by Vezok.
N2: Target fulcrum. Traded 1-shot Tracker for Dreams of Future. Confirmed by fulcrum
N3: Target Killjoy. Traded BP vest for ?
Dkingsland:
Titania, Town Summer Queen
Summer – Choose a target. Can choose during the day or night. Bodyguard the target for the rest of the game. Can change the target during the next Summer.
N1: Targeted Asta. Confirmed by Asta.
Asta:
Oberon, Town King
Double-voter in Spring/Summer
Winter – Benevolent King: Increase a player's lynch threshold by 1
Axelrod:
Moth, Fairy Town Watcher
Spring – Target a player. Learn How Many abilities targeted that player at Night
N2: Targeted KCC. No other abilities targeted KCC
Summer – Target a player. Learn Who targeted that player at night
N1: Targeted (?) No one targeted this player N1
Fall – Target a player. Learn the Names of Abilities that targeted player at Night
N3: Targeted (?) Learned names of abilities that targeted.
Winter – Target a player. Learn the First player to target the player at Night
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Axelrod: Fair points regarding dkings and fulcrum; it's just pretty difficult for me to conceptualize the idea of a loud mafia bodyguard or a mafia that has
a random cop ability.
If fulcrum is mafia, the ability probably gives more info, like closer to a rolecop, and the random nonmafia aspect is not so much an alignment inspect as a clause to insure it can't miss since it's so limited
I'm obviously missing something completely, because I'm not convinced on anyone above the line and the game just seems to easy. I'll probably die tonight, but that's what's on my mind.
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I'm obviously missing something completely, because I'm not convinced on anyone above the line and the game just seems to easy. I'll probably die tonight, but that's what's on my mind.
You're missing me.
Idk, I feel KCC is townier than Proph, behavior wise.
God I don't want to get sidetracked on a KCC wagon again because I feel like people will freak out and not be sure of what to do and then we're gonna miss a lynch. Bluh. Sticking with Keldeo, not even really sure of who to side-eye at this juncture.
This isn't a clear, exactly, you (and most other people) could be +1 on a team with Keldeo/Axelrod or something, but there's definitely one in KCC/Keldeo and one in Axel/Fulcrum because that's what wolves need in the set up so I want to lunch those and see where we end up
So, I ask this (1) without going to look up wherever you explained your thought process about this before, and (2) without having taken the time to think through all the claims and/or ramifications thereof myself yet.
Nevertheless, I would be very interested if you would walk me (slowly) through your reasoning as to why there is "definitely" one scum in KCC/Keldeo and one in Me/Fulcrum "because that's what wolves need in the set up." I would like to hear you lay it out, and then I'm going to decide if I agree with it or not. Deal?
Uh, sure?
Wolves kind of just need an info role and a reliable manipulative, right? Like, Whisper/Proph/Vaimes isn't a viable team, mechanically, against you/me/fulcrum/KCC/Keldeo/Masons
So their investigative is either you or fulcrum (since Killjoy is only a wolf with her anyway and everyone else claimed not info)
Vaimes and Proph are too random/weird/slow to be the only manipulative wolf roles, so either KCC or Keldeo because they have the most powerful and reliable manipulative abilities
The +1 could be ~anyone other than Vezok just about, I think. Though KJ only with fulcrum, of course
Yes, my Summer ability is whatever the "next" season is, so standard order would be Fall but I learned Proph's Spring ability because it was the next season
My Winter ability does require a specific night, so I choose e.g. Vaimes and N2 and learn whether he was targeted that night or not
I think you're scum because the way you're approaching me is not in line with how I've ALWAYS seen you approach things as town.
I feel like town you, for instance, wouldn't tolerate the BS of me choosing specifically not to tell you the reasons for my scumread on you. You don't feel the same. You're complaining that I'm not trying to figure out your mindset while also complaining that I'm shading you for no reason (without trying to dig too far into my read on you in the meantime).
I know you're trying to control your emotions or whatever, but that shouldn't change how you scumhunt, should it?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I feel like town you, for instance, wouldn't tolerate the BS of me choosing specifically not to tell you the reasons for my scumread on you.
I didnt tolerate it? lol?
you being a wolf now, fully depends on Fulcrum's flip, and that doesnt happen anytime soon
and I dont think? I become a train today or even the next day phase as it stands
also its not like I'm not used to you being wrong anyways? I need to start thinking from the perspective of each player and not just assuming certain things are wolfy? town!killjoy is certainly capable of ignoring the majority of someone's posts and wolf reading someone because, "he push me he bad"
Lastwhisper:
He starts his own sidegame instead of playing the game at first, and then calls Nacho wolfy for his reaction to KCC, which I think was a very pure reaction. Nacho gets more flak for that though; too much to all come from scum.
He doesn’t like tom’s gimmick, but his reaction to it is better than Axelrod’s: he merely says he’s not a fan of the gimmick and that tom doesn’t give him town vibes. Ergo, he’s not calling the gimmick itself scummy, which is good.
His response to Vaimes where he uses the word “probably” talking about his tells not being AI bugs me bigtime. It looks like he jokingly wants to get rid of Vaimes’ push.
His reads in #163 don’t look like real reads. He doesn’t give a real read on both Vaimes and Silver and waffles on Nacho. The only thing there is a townread on KJ.
A lot of scum!pings there, but his later posts are suddenly way better. I like how he questions Silver’s Rhand vote and how he starts real worldbuilding and pressuring Vezok.
Verdict: lean town (if he’s scum he won’t keep up his new posting)
Each of these reads are very confident, despite being opposing.
1. Last's reaction to Nacho is 'very pure'. Kinda also uses Nacho getting flak to support Last's towniness there I think?
2. LAst's reaction to tom's gimmick is better than Axel's, therefore town.
3. Response to Vaimes 'bugs him big time', wants to get rid of Vaimes push.
4. None of his reads looks real, save the townread on me.
5. 'a lot of scum pings there, but then his posting gets suddenly better' with his questioning of Silver's vote on Rhand, worldbuiding, and pressure on vezok. My question here is why include the first part about all the scum pings, except to justify an undeserved towaread, which he gives Last (with a caveat that allows Rhand onto the wagon if his buddy plays badly.
I feel like this is a w/w interaction here. Rhand absolutely feels like he's forcing a townread on Last here, which I don't THINK Last ever questions? (edit, nope)
325: He's still on vezok's Last question markness.
331/334 Kinda pointless questions, but those are meh, just including them because they don't seem to be leading anywhere.
That's the last if interactions from his end. There's mention of last in 3209 in his scum list as a weak leantown read, then suddenly becomes possible mafia in 3309. He later says that this is because he (and I) are lower townreads so if he's right about Vaimes being neutral then there's scum in his townreads. It's just more flimsy 'town, but maybe scum' read.
I REALLY don't want to ISO Last right now to see if there's interactions from LAst's end. He has 500 posts.
All I really wanted to do was point out these things from Rhand's end though.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I feel like town you, for instance, wouldn't tolerate the BS of me choosing specifically not to tell you the reasons for my scumread on you.
I didnt tolerate it? lol?
you being a wolf now, fully depends on Fulcrum's flip, and that doesnt happen anytime soon
and I dont think? I become a train today or even the next day phase as it stands
also its not like I'm not used to you being wrong anyways? I need to start thinking from the perspective of each player and not just assuming certain things are wolfy? town!killjoy is certainly capable of ignoring the majority of someone's posts and wolf reading someone because, "he push me he bad"
Like, my read on you started with "Last could be scum" and you overreacted. I don't think I'm wtong here.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I do have a Winter ability called Benevolent King which allows me to increase another player's lynch threshold by one. So yeah, that's a thing I have, not sure if I'll actually have a need/desire to use it.
Is this a day ability or night ability? If it's a day ability, you can easily just prove it today when we are ready to lynch.
There is still one thing bugging me, why wouldn't wolf!keldeo wanna push a Lynch on on Fulcrum, like at least we'd have something to talk about that day, and we could've come to our own conclusion the matter
It feels more like buddy on buddy than anything, but then that means he is lying about the roleblock all together, or he targeted his own buddy because ???
I said this before, but if they are W/W I very much doubt Keldeo actually targeted fulcrum. My guess is fulcrum tried to kill N1, it failed, and they assume you were indeed responsible. The claim is intended to throw doubt on you.
This isn't a clear, exactly, you (and most other people) could be +1 on a team with Keldeo/Axelrod or something, but there's definitely one in KCC/Keldeo and one in Axel/Fulcrum because that's what wolves need in the set up so I want to lunch those and see where we end up
So, I ask this (1) without going to look up wherever you explained your thought process about this before, and (2) without having taken the time to think through all the claims and/or ramifications thereof myself yet.
Nevertheless, I would be very interested if you would walk me (slowly) through your reasoning as to why there is "definitely" one scum in KCC/Keldeo and one in Me/Fulcrum "because that's what wolves need in the set up." I would like to hear you lay it out, and then I'm going to decide if I agree with it or not. Deal?
Vaimes and Proph are too random/weird/slow to be the only manipulative wolf roles, so either KCC or Keldeo because they have the most powerful and reliable manipulative abilities
I don't know how I feel about the info roles because of the narrow nature of the abilities and the fact that half of them aren't even good.
But in addition to Silver's points, with Tom having a flipped RB/jail ability, KCC having a verified RB, Proph claiming an orb RB and Keldeo claiming three straight-up RB abilities, that is just so much disruption and I find it hard to believe it's all town.
If fulcrum is mafia, the ability probably gives more info, like closer to a rolecop, and the random nonmafia aspect is not so much an alignment inspect as a clause to insure it can't miss since it's so limited
Vaimes verified the ability does what she says it does, so I doubt she's lying or withholding info unless they are both scum together, and even that seems bad because he'll get nuked immediately if she ever flips and the role says something different than what she claimed.
Wolves kind of just need an info role and a reliable manipulative, right?
I tend not to think this way. In terms of sides "needing" any particular type of role, whether it's an "info" role, or a "manipulative" role (or a "killing" role, or whatever). I'm a bit more holistic, I suppose, in that when balancing a set-up, I take overall teams and see if relative "strength" seems equal, without necessarily breaking down where that strength is coming from.
That said, it probably is the case that usually it falls out that the Town/Mafia each end up with some amount of "info" and/or "manipulative" type roles as a natural development of the process. I just wouldn't make it a game defining assumption.
Like, Whisper/Proph/Vaimes isn't a viable team, mechanically, against you/me/fulcrum/KCC/Keldeo/Masons
I mean, maybe? You're also assuming here that everyone is claiming everything and claiming truthfully and it seems likely to me that scum would not be claiming everything/completely truthfully.
Just for example, if he's scum, I don't think that LW is ignorant of what his "dreams" do, and there probably would be more to it than what he's saying. Vaimes has proven the trader aspect of his role, but if he's scum, i would imagine there's probably something else he's not saying. Proph's role is complex enough that there might not be more to it, though he could be straight-up lying about the nature of the Orbs. They are kind of hard to verify (what they do, not that they exist).
This is not to say that I think it is likely that the last three scum are in this grouping. That would, indeed, feel wrong. I guess I'm just challenging your assumptions.
So their investigative is either you or fulcrum (since Killjoy is only a wolf with her anyway and everyone else claimed not info)
Like here, assuming (1) that scum must have an "Investigative" and (2) based on the current claims, that investigative can only be myself or fulcrum. I think both of those are dangerous assumptions.
Vaimes and Proph are too random/weird/slow to be the only manipulative wolf roles, so either KCC or Keldeo because they have the most powerful and reliable manipulative abilities
And same here.
All that said, I'm finally going to do my own break down right now, and see if anything stands out.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Before I did anything else I wanted to update the list to include the deceased people, for ease of reference.
Rhand:
Hades, Mafia Corpse Mimic
God of the Underworld: Each Night choose a seasonal ability of a dead player. He gains that ability, but the season changes to match the current season (i.e. assuming the season changes by next night the ability would not normally be useable right away. Except for:
Godhood: 2x during the game, he can change the season of the ability he targets to be whatever season he wants it to be.
N1: No deaths, no possible targets?
N2: Only Nacho dead, and he had no "Seasonal" ability to take
Nacho:
Sycorax, Town Season Illusionist
Season Illusion: 1x during the Day, he can swap the current Season with the upcoming one.
D1: Swapped Spring with Summer. It went back to being Spring on D2/N2, and then skipped over Summer and went straight into Fall for N3.
Tomsloger:
Puck, Town Memory Changer
Spring: Annoyance – Each Day in Spring, can target a player, that player must target you the following Night if able.
Fall: Forced Slumber – 1x per game at Night in Fall, Jailkeeper.
Winter: Hazy Memory – Each Night in Winter target a player and pick a season. Player will “forget” any abilities they have that match that season. (Permanently? Probably based on wording?)
N1 was Summer. No ability
N2 was Spring. No ability. It is possible Tom targeted someone during D1 before Nacho changed the Season. I would assume this ability would still go off in that case. No one has claimed to have been re-directed to Tom on N1.
Gemma:
Aurora, Town.
Unknown role.
Killed D1 by a burning ray of light that came from the Sun. It is possible this had something to do with her own role, because it’s “Aurora,” and her role was Stolen/Copied/Reflected.
She might also just have been straight-up daykilled by a scum with a daykill ability. This kill did not recur during the following Summer day, suggesting it was a 1x deal.
Grapefruit:
Pyramus, Town Fated Mason
Masons with Vez.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I would point out, in the first instance, that with Rhand's ability out there, I imagine the scum would have been hoping for a Lynch on D1, even more so than usual, so as to have a Corpse for him to potentially copy. This is maybe a tiny bit self-serving, sure, and Wine-full, but the people who were suggesting No Lynch D1 might look slightly better for that reason alone. I do not remember who that was at this moment besides myself.
Next thing I'm looking at are all the Role-Blocking-Type claims, to see how they add up and whether they might reasonably exist together in the same Town.
We appear to have:
(1) KCC: Role-Block only in Spring. "Delay" in Fall. "Targeter-Delayer" in Winter. 2x Bus Drive is any season once active, but it doesn't activate until Summer?
(2) Keldeo: Summer Role-Block. Target picked during the day and blocked the following Night. Winter RB. Target at Night(?) If successfully prevent an (non-factional) ability, lose this and gain a copy of it.
(3) Proph: Green Orbs. Has to give one person a Green Orb, which is only in Spring - baring his special # of freebies. Then give someone else a Green or Orange Orb (Orange is only Fall). Then, if a player with a Green Orb targets a player with a Green or Orange Orb, they get Rbed.
(4) Tom: 1x Jailkeeper in Fall.
It strikes me that the "Role-Blocks" from these roles happen in different Seasons. KCC is Spring. Keldeo is Summer. Tom is Fall, and only 1x, and also a Jailkeeper. Proph's is technically anytime, but so hard to actually get to go off. You add them up and they are kind of like one full-time role blocker. There's a certain elegance to that, and it makes it hard for me to say that there's "definitely" scum in one of these slots (that is, for the RBing ability reason alone.) I'm sure that was intended by our Mod.
Of course, they all have other abilities too, besides the RBs. Also, some of them have seasons with no abilities.
Tom, missing Summer.
Keldeo, missing Spring and Fall
KCC, all seasons, technically, but if I understand correctly, the Summer ability is more of an ability that becomes "available" during Summer, but can then be used anytime?
Proph, all seasons, different Orbs.
I might agree that, if there's a point of contrast here, it's strongest between KCC and Keldeo, because they are the only "pure" Rbers from this list. I don't think that single fact is quite incriminating enough for my tastes, especially given the potential for other scum to be lying. It's worth noting though, and continuing on.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
My question here is why include the first part about all the scum pings, except to justify an undeserved towaread, which he gives Last (with a caveat that allows Rhand onto the wagon if his buddy plays badly.
If last is town, it'd be because giving clean town reads to too many townies is a bad idea. In that world, Rhand wasn't ready to go at Last yet, but wanted to lay ground work for later
Vaimes verified the ability does what she says it does, so I doubt she's lying or withholding info unless they are both scum together, and even that seems bad because he'll get nuked immediately if she ever flips and the role says something different than what she claimed.
Right. But, the rest of that stands, the mafia reason for how it works is to always hit, and never hit scum (as that'd be useless). It is still a really garbage scum power though.
I'm looking at "Information" roles now. Which I'm defining as roles that can learn something about another player. We have:
(1) Silver:
Spring - None.
Summer - Learn if a player has a Fall ability + learn its name (except in the corner case scenario we got which was Spring following Summer.
Fall - Learn if a living player ever targeted a dead player
Winter - Learn if a player was targeted on a past night of Silver's choice
(2) fulcrum:
Spring - Learn name of a Non-Mafia who took an action
Summer - None
Fall - Learn names of two player who have "Fall" abilities (and which are "Fall only" as well?)
Winter - Learn the name of a random Winter ability.
(3) Keldeo (technically)
Winter - if he successfully RBs, he gets a copy of that player's ability
(4) Proph (technically)
Yellow Orbs - they give the ability to learn the names of abilities that target the player. Technically this doesn't tell the player anything directly about another player.
(5) Vaimes
Can trade away abilities (including a 1-shot Tracker ability. He then gains an ability of the player he targeted.
(6) dking (technically)
Because when he bodyguards someone, they get told it is happening?
(7) Axelrod
Spring - See if a player was targeted
Summer - See who targets a player (Watch)
Fall - Learn names of all abilities that target a player that night
Winter - See first player to target a player (limited Watch)
(8) Tom (technically)
Because he could force someone to target him if they were able. In Spring.
This is a bit of a mess for me, again, with the knowledge that scum are probably lying about something, it's very hard to draw a definite conclusion here.
Like, fulcrum's Spring ability is the best one claimed, because it's a guaranteed clear. That is actually good. Fall ability might have a tiny bit of utility keeping scum honest. The Winter one is kinda bad.
Silver's abilities are kinda "meh." The Fall one is okay, if you can "clear" someone from having done the kill, or, best case, catch someone who should not have been able to target the deceased (or who claimed never to have). The Summer one maybe keep scum a little honest, at least about their ability names. Likewise, the Winter one could maybe confirm someone's claim to have targeted, if not what they were doing.
I have two reasonable abilities and two less good ones. Spring and Fall are only okay for "confirming" other claims (or the fact that I have those abilities, really) Summer/Winter could actually catch someone.
Those are the most controlled "Information" abilities. The other ones are more random.
It's weird to me that apparently we only have one cop-like ability in the entire game, and it's limited to randomly clearing someone who took an action in the Spring. So, people who this ability could actually "clear" would seem to be:
KCC
Killjoy (apparently)
Proph
Vaimes
Axelrod
If the ability counts people who could take "Day" Spring actions, then the list expands to include Nacho and Tom, with Nacho being 1x only. I suppose if LW choosing one of his dreams counts then it could include him also. KCC, Proph, and me (and Killjoy?) are the only ones who will always have a Spring ability.
Can never "clear" Silver, Keldeo, dking, Asta (and Masons, not that they would need it)
Possibly noteworthy that KCC's ability seems to turn this off also.
Gotta run. So, just posting as I go.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Okay, Axel, if you're digging this carefully through roles now, I should clear up one of my abilities since it doesn't look like I'm getting anything out of it.
I had originally misread my Fall ability, which I realized while deciding my target last night. It doesn't delay the person I target, rather it delays any other abilities that target my target. I used it on Silver so we could definitely get his results, it doesn't seem like anyone targeted him though
I just looked and Silver had claimed "weak investigative" and that his Fall ability was the only one that was decent on D2. So that's not inconsistent.
I'm trying to wrap my head around what KCC does. So, Fall is "Delay" any abilities that target your target. And Winter is "the person who targets your target will have their next action delayed" (not the current one that is targeting your target, whatever it is). Is that correct?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also, I don't think you ever said what the names of these abilities are?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm trying to wrap my head around what KCC does. So, Fall is "Delay" any abilities that target your target. And Winter is "the person who targets your target will have their next action delayed" (not the current one that is targeting your target, whatever it is). Is that correct?
Yes. And the Fall one only affects abilities that same Night. The Winter one sets a trap that stays until it's triggered
Also, I don't think you ever said what the names of these abilities are?
I realized that when looking through your list at all of the name cop powers. I might be happy I haven't yet though. -I definitely want to do that before Night, but hold on for now
I have realized looking through these claims that, with the possible exception of Killjoy, who I currently do not believe is scum, there is nothing to be gained from me continuing to withhold who I targeted N1 who was not targeted by anyone. So I'll just say that it was Silver.
If you want my reasoning, there's a whole thing I wrote, but out of respect for it making people uncomfortable, I will not cut and paste again.
Basically, I looked at everyone and tried to narrow down who I thought the scum would be most likely to target based on what we had. I started by taking out the people who were on the block D1, as those people were either scum themselves or people the scum would likely consider mis-lynch candidates. Those people were: (me - not that I can target myself) KCC, dking, Nacho.
Then I took out the claimed Masons, because I did not think the scum would go for them so early, even if they were real (and I was not 100% they were even real). Powerless Town who are not actually cleared yet to anyone else seemed low priority for full strength scum.
Then I took out Asta, because everyone was screaming for dking to put his bodyguard on Asta, and also because sometime double-voter would not seem a huge threat to them yet.
Next I took out Vaimes, Killjoy and fulcrum. On these I meta-gamed a bit because all of them were at least somewhat anti-me on D1, thinking the scum would like to keep those people around to get a mislynch on me later if possible. In addition, Vaimes had garnered some suspicion himself, and I thought it less likely the scum would shoot at him. Killjoy was widely town-read, and I actually thought maybe too town-read, meaning he would have been a good Doc-protect target if the Town had a Doc. and the scum might have avoided him for that reason. Finally, I thought fulcrum's claim thusfar seemed weird and not especially threatening to the scum.
Next I took out LW and Proph. LW because he just seems so random and inconsistent that I did not think the scum would view him as a threat yet. Proph because he had barely even started to play at that point (and that would be rude of them).
That left me with a group of 4: Silver, Rhand, Keldeo, Tom.
I eliminated Keldeo because I though he was still carrying some Mindreaver baggage. Then Tom, and this was a closer call because he was not anti-me, and I though the scum might view him as a potential threat. Ultimately what decided me here was because of his stupid rapping all Day 1, and the fact we were going to be "Spring" again the next day (this was assuming there had been a NK) and he might be Rapping again, would make him ineffectual as Town at least for that day.
Leaving me between Silver and Rhand. And I just decided I thought Rhand was more likely to be scum than Silver.
(ok, technically, I said I thought Rhand was marginally more likely to be scum, but that doesn't sound as smart. :p)
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If I'm looking for claims where it seems like there's the most room for a scum to have lied/omitted/fudged something, I get:
Silver: One empty slot, but otherwise the claimed abilities seem confirmable.
Keldeo: Two empty slots - though lying about not having a seasonal ability in this game does seem risky. And the others seem confirmable.
fulcrum: One empty slot. Spring and Winter ability claims seem fake-able. Although I don't think Killjoy had claimed anything when fulcrum "cleared" him? Am I wrong about that? So at a very minimum as scum she would have to have an ability that determines if someone took and action here. Or she's just scum with Killjoy and it's a huge gambit.
Vaimes: Room for him to have omitted something. I mean, he is omitting something.
dking: Definitely room for something else besides BG. Risky if he has a Night action he's not claimed though.
Asta: One empty slot. But double voting is proved and the lynch-threshold thing seems unlikely to be a false claim.
And the claims with the least room (because they have claimed abilities in every Season).
Me - I'm biased, but there's stuff I can learn each Season I can't fake. I mean, later in the game I could theoretically fake a result, but not now.
Proph - could be lying about what Orbs do. Seems like later in the game this could get exposed though.
KCC - Spring and Summer already confirmed. Others seem unlikely to be fake claims, except that Winter thing could technically be because it doesn't show up until late.
LW - could be omitting something (like he could know what the abilities do), but the naming in the opening of day scenes is fairly compelling that he's picking them, and having another completely separate ability on top of the things we've seen seems less likely
Killjoy is still mostly a blank here. He took an action N2. And he traded some ability to Vaimes for the vest.
I don't suppose, Vaimes, you want to opine on the Towniness of the ability that Killjoy gave you? Without saying what it is?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
fulcrum has mentioned one of the things I omitted about my role, for the record. Other items are similar in that regard.
Also her cop ability heavily implies that there's a neutral in the game, because it specifically returns a "not mafia" result, so it isn't clearing, per say. Or it's a red herring. Either way, not groupscum, so whatever.
KJ had not claimed by the time fulcrum softed her check on him (I think he is still unclaimed), and he traded me his spring ability last Night so I know it exists.
The ability KJ gave me is pretty meh, not very useful for either alignment. KJ can claim it slash have me claim it, if he wants.
Maybe they targeted tom and he's gonna be dead before I get another check anyway (or I will be)
Maybe they aren't w/w and it's Axelrod
Maybe he is the daykiller but the day kill doesn't target
As far as posts go everyone is playing fine, if my set up gaming is bad, my reads are up ***** creek without a paddle lmao
I can answer this one for now, I gotta check back on the other to see what pushes I was talking about
I wrote about this in my notes
Killjoy – day 1 we had that back and fourth with him and Rhand, and Rhand was certain he was wolf, because town!killjoy should be less confident? I mean what if this is true, what if this is just Killjoy tmi’ing Rhand as a wolf, possibly trying to do some early scum theater. I can’t recall if Rhand ever revisited Killjoy, so I will come back to this. Placeholder read, since I still think Killjoy is one of the most natural players in this game. The biggest problem here is like Rhand goes from being a wolf to being rarely talked about again
Like if you look through Killjoy's iso, he never mentions Rhand again, which is why I keep coming back to a Rhand/Killjoy team, like I dont think saying, "Why would Rhand push his buddy so hard", means much of anything given that we probably arent going to lynch killjoy day 1 anyways. If you believe someone is a wolf, you either keep believing it, or re-evaluate them, which Killjoy did neither, the read and pressure just kinda disappeared
Killjoy also keeps shading me I personally believe, even if he thinks otherwise. Like he talks about mine and Kcc's interactions, and then says I can be a wolf, out of no where
but he is still stuck in the PoE that everyone else has, as you can see here
so that's why I feel like it is fabricated
and here again
there is no attempt to understand my thoughts, and IDK why he concludes that I dont believe my assertions
he never even breaks down why?
Why can't I be offended? and Why does being offended make me a wolf?
There is no way I stopped the kill, since there is no reason to believe a n0 action affected the n1 kill, and if it did, why does me having this ability make it more likely I am a wolf? Why does me not knowing what my abilities do, fit more as a wolf?
but see its all about context, maybe you believe this, or maybe u dont? but I really dont see why you would think this as town? also you arent no paragon of towniness either, and a lot of your posts towards me come off as needlessly aggressive for no reason
so ya, those are my thoughts on Killjoy without re-reading the entirety of his iso
what do I mean by emotions? my real time posts can 180 on a dime due to emotions, sometimes I dont even necessarily believe or care what I am saying when I am triggered by posts in the thread
The Current Season is Fall.
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
I need to reread Keldeo
My question is whether this is actually your strategy, to post so much and be so variable that no one can ever read you. Which might be effective, I suppose, but, man, it's a bear to play with.
I am trying to work on it honestly, and this isnt even a problem on any new site I join
this continues to be a problem on sites that I have been in for a while, since there seems to be this stigma around the way I play and my thoughts
Proph asked a question and I answered it, but even if sometimes I am a wildcard, you should at least try to see what my perspective is
here its just "lol wisp"
Killjoy sees me wolf read him, and he just says, "its fabricated"
and then I get attacked
"I dont need your permission to scum read you"
imagine having the most posts in the game and someone just says, "I think thoughts are fabricated"
sure I can top post as a wolf, we've seen it, but the content is massively different in terms of actual content
I could try to play like Keldeo and respond calmly, but personality wise I can't, but if Killjoy took the time to actually look at my posts, and give a real read than sure
we are literally mass claiming here, but killjoy doesn't need to because hes been cop-checked by a dude some of us don't even trust?
Mostly just waiting here for Keldeo to come back and address the stuff that's been addressed to him.
Silver: Is your progression on me literally "Proph is probably scum due to PoE" -> I claim -> "Yeah that claim's probably not a wolf claim"? Kind of want to echo Last's question of what you think about my behavior aside from a general "everyone's playing fine".
Last: Thanks for answering. Yeah, I just realized that the only way KJ can be scum is if fulcrum/KJ/Rhand/X are a team which.. could be the case? I dunno, it'd kind of shock me if KJ was scum given how townie he was on Day 1.
Feels like it's only productive to investigate scum!KJ worlds only in worlds where fulcrum flips mafia, because he literally has a confirmed inno check on him by two people (fulcrum and Vaimes, who is backing up fulcrum's ability).
Fair enough; I know how you play.
Can you answer the last question about fulcrum? Specifically - what pushes do you think are "easy" coming from fulcrum? You state that she has made some easy pushes but I don't know what those are.
Anyway, again, don't hammer please. Let me get my thoughts out about people and defend myself and see if I can change your minds, and even if you don't think you're changing your mind, then do it to let other people get their thoughts out and get the most out of that Friends chat thing.
--
Vezok is confirmed mason.
Killjoy's not mafia, according to fulcrum and Vaimes. I'm not entirely sure why fulcrum would take this line if Killjoy were not her partner (i.e. if he were 3p, all she would know was that he was not mafia). I don't really think he's fulcrum's partner, either. KJ and fulcrum had this multi-post conversation early on about Killjoy being suspicious of Gemma withholding meta on Nacho, where Killjoy presented his suspicion to fulcrum asking for feedback, and fulcrum sort of leveraged a theory about what Gemma was doing to dismiss it, despite Killjoy continuing to ask her about it. I feel like that conversation would have looked different if they were partners, which is about the vaguest way I can put it but that's how I feel. Also I think Rhand and KJ's early interactions are not w/w.
Sure there's the tinfoil theory of KJ/Vaimes/fulcrum being like a third party cult faction or something, but it's a bit too out there for me to want to entertain right now. Also, I wanted to note that fulcrum softed a positive result on KJ yesterDay, so it can't have been something she made up toDay.
#mechanics
I talked about this in broad terms earlier, but Rhand's approach to Vaimes's claim on day 2 seems pretty not partners-y. He's really consistently critical, when he'd have room not to be. (2362, 2602) Vaimes's posts back at him are also fairly incredulous - e.g. 2589. The fun part here is Rhand playing coy about how his role and Vaimes's role couldn't coexist as town, when actually the similarity was pretty tenuous. To me, that feels a lot more likely to be something he'd do to a townie while avoiding responsibility for his push until he had to claim, than something he'd do to a buddy. It's crossed my mind that Rhand could have manufactured the push to get them cred but I feel like Vaimes was in a pretty decent position given fulcrum defending him (pre-him giving her an item, even), so there would really be no need to do that.
Asta hasn't done anything strong one way or the other, but I don't think his role is mafia. I doubt Rhand picked out something bad about his partner Asta and gave him a lean scum instead of leaving him at another null in his post 300. I kind of doubt Rhand calls out Asta voting twice in a tone that seems like he was surprised by it, if he's partners with him. I kiiind of doubt partner Asta behaves like he did toward Rhand yesterday, his double vote kept the wagon going.
Vaimes confirmed fulcrum's ability, and like I said, I don't really see Fulcrum clearing a non-partner like that, or being partners with specifically KJ. There's also the not w/w with Rhand stuff I noted on like D2 (2958), which I ~still believe in.
If we're flipping me today, get dkings to reevaluate and stuff after. Maaaybe look at him if he's alive in like late endgame, because I don't have enough wolves, the mod confirmation thing is weird, I get more of a sense of agenda from dkings than from Asta, Rhand pushing for a third wagon EOD1 maybe makes some amount of sense if dkings/KCC is w/w. Bodyguard probably isn't mafia, though? And dkings said some things that would be really on the nose if dkings/KCC/Rhand/.. was the team (2474). Also, dkings has probably locked himself into pushing KCC after me given what he's said about Rhand? So I'd probably even-more-mostly-clear him if KCC flips w at some point.
I haven't finished looking at these people:
1. Silvercrys3467
2. Lastwhisper
3. Prophylaxis
10. Axelrod
I haven't finished looking at KCC/Rhand stuff either, but she's the person I'd like to kill most out of the people I got a chance to look at. Rhand had da strong townread on her for most of the game, which isn't bad in itself but specifically I feel as though Rhand would have flipped on her at some point if he could push her as a mislynch, which has definitely been plausible, but he kept going on a strong townread of her from her first posts, meta reasons, and her voting Nacho with him day 1. You can look at Rhand walking back his early meta-ish townread of Mindreaver as an example of him opening up a mislynch opportunity as the thread attitudes shifted.
Vote KittyCupCake
This isn't a clear, exactly, you (and most other people) could be +1 on a team with Keldeo/Axelrod or something, but there's definitely one in KCC/Keldeo and one in Axel/Fulcrum because that's what wolves need in the set up so I want to lunch those and see where we end up
That +1 is going to be hard probably but I'm planning on being dead by then lmao
I don't think wolf!fulcrum loses anything by clearing town!killjoy who has been widely town read and probably wasn't going to be mislunched even if I thunderdomed him, like, if he's town he's already on the short list for the night kill. Most players in the game right now are mislunchable down the line, it's basically just KJ and vezok with little/no suspicion on them.
and after sleeping, the problem really isnt that my push is forced, the problem is that I think there are both solid cases on why you can be town, and thoughts on why you could be a wolf
like I have even poked at some of your posts for being super townie
so I guess forgive me if I dont have enough conviction for someone who is uninformed that thinks a dude that is basically cop checked might be a wolf, because everything just seems so "easy"
Nevertheless, I would be very interested if you would walk me (slowly) through your reasoning as to why there is "definitely" one scum in KCC/Keldeo and one in Me/Fulcrum "because that's what wolves need in the set up." I would like to hear you lay it out, and then I'm going to decide if I agree with it or not. Deal?
I still havent fully read you tbh, and this has nothing to do with the posts you've made, but I still think that mind's post about, "I wont let myself become a mislynch", is completely left field from the tone that I saw him use in a game where I know he was mafia, its not super strong and probably not a fair read given the content you produced, but thats just something I currently have in my head
Silver:
Spring: None
Summer: Winds of Portence (Target player, learn the name of an ability that can only be used Next season (i.e. Fall?)
N1: Targeted Proph and learned the name of his “Spring” ability (because that was going to be the “next” season, technically?)
Fall: Winds of Knowledge (Target living and dead player, learn if the living ever targeted the dead)
N3: Target Gemma and Keldeo. Keldeo has not targeted Gemma this game
Winter: Winds of Past (Target player, learn if they were targeted on a past night (that you choose? Not just all nights)
Lastwhisper:
Has six “Dreams.” Chooses one each Night (including pregame?) Does not know what they do. Names appear in the Morning Scene.
Past
Tranquility – N0 (we had no kill on N1?)
Revenge
Friendship – N3 (random neighborhood created for one cycle? LW, KCC and fulcrum in the hood.)
Leadership – N1 (we had to elect someone to decide the lynch the next day?)
Prophecy – N2 (we needed a super-majority to lynch the next day?)
KCC:
Spring: Role-Block
N2: RB Prpoh.
Summer: 2-shot bus drive (that can use with other abilities? What other abilities?)
N1: Target Axelrod and Nacho
Fall: Delay
N3: Unclaimed?
Winter: Target a player. The player who next targets that player will be delayed for their next action.
Vezokpiraka:
Mason with Grapefruit – confirmed
Fulcrum:
Spring: Dreams of Future (passive. Learn the name of a Non-mafia who took an action)
-Learned Killjoy
-N2 - Targeted by Vaimes. Traded away this Spring ability for a Tracker ability.
Summer: none
Fall: Dream of Certainty (passive. Learn the names of two players with abilities restricted to those seasons)
-Learned Proph and Silver
-N3 - Tracked Keldeo. Keldeo did not target anyone this Night.
Winter: Dream of Naming (passive. Learn the name of a random Winter ability)
Killjoy:
Unclaimed
Took an action N2 (Spring)
N3 – Traded (something) with Vaimes for BP vest.
Keldeo:
Spring: None
Summer (Preparation for Winter – Target during the day. Target will be RB the following night)
D1: Target fulcrum
D2: Target DKing
Fall: None
Winter (Queen of Winter – RB. If successfully prevent a non-factional ability, lose this and gain a copy of that ability)
Prophylaxis:
Spring – Give a Green Orb (If a player with a Green Orb targets a player with a Green or Orange Orb they are RBed)
N2 – Targeted dkings with a Green Orb. Role-blocked (by KCC)
Summer – Give a Yellow Orb (If a player with a Yellow Orb targets a player with a Yellow or Orange Orb their ability name is told to the targeted player)
N1 – Targeted Axel with Yellow Orb. Re-directed to Nacho.
Fall – Give an Orange Orb (Don’t do anything, but make the other Orbs work)
N3 - Unclaimed
Winter – Give a Blue Orb (If a player with a Blue Orb targets a player with a Blue or Orange Orb that player is protected from a NK attempt)
Also X times, can give out an Orb of any color during the Day.
D1: Targeted Vezok with a Blue Orb
When he does, Orbs start disappearing at a rate of 2 per season, starting with the most recent
Vaimes:
Each night(?) can target a player and offer them a choice of three items
1-shot Tracker
BP vest
2-shot Message sender
Vaimes gains a 1-shot version of the ability which is traded to him.
N1: Target Vezok. No effect. Confirmed by Vezok.
N2: Target fulcrum. Traded 1-shot Tracker for Dreams of Future. Confirmed by fulcrum
N3: Target Killjoy. Traded BP vest for ?
Dkingsland:
Summer – Choose a target. Can choose during the day or night. Bodyguard the target for the rest of the game. Can change the target during the next Summer.
N1: Targeted Asta. Confirmed by Asta.
Asta:
Double-voter in Spring/Summer
Winter – Benevolent King: Increase a player's lynch threshold by 1
Axelrod:
Spring – Target a player. Learn How Many abilities targeted that player at Night
N2: Targeted KCC. No other abilities targeted KCC
Summer – Target a player. Learn Who targeted that player at night
N1: Targeted (?) No one targeted this player N1
Fall – Target a player. Learn the Names of Abilities that targeted player at Night
N3: Targeted (?) Learned names of abilities that targeted.
Winter – Target a player. Learn the First player to target the player at Night
If fulcrum is mafia, the ability probably gives more info, like closer to a rolecop, and the random nonmafia aspect is not so much an alignment inspect as a clause to insure it can't miss since it's so limited
Killjoy
Last
Asta
Dkingsland
Silver
Vaimes
Proph
Axelrod
-------
KCC
Keldeo
I'm obviously missing something completely, because I'm not convinced on anyone above the line and the game just seems to easy. I'll probably die tonight, but that's what's on my mind.
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Work has been crazy today. Should have more time tomorrow.
You're missing me.
Idk, I feel KCC is townier than Proph, behavior wise.
God I don't want to get sidetracked on a KCC wagon again because I feel like people will freak out and not be sure of what to do and then we're gonna miss a lynch. Bluh. Sticking with Keldeo, not even really sure of who to side-eye at this juncture.
And that's it? Your whole role is those two named abilities? Nothing else?
Wolves kind of just need an info role and a reliable manipulative, right? Like, Whisper/Proph/Vaimes isn't a viable team, mechanically, against you/me/fulcrum/KCC/Keldeo/Masons
So their investigative is either you or fulcrum (since Killjoy is only a wolf with her anyway and everyone else claimed not info)
Vaimes and Proph are too random/weird/slow to be the only manipulative wolf roles, so either KCC or Keldeo because they have the most powerful and reliable manipulative abilities
The +1 could be ~anyone other than Vezok just about, I think. Though KJ only with fulcrum, of course
Yes, my Summer ability is whatever the "next" season is, so standard order would be Fall but I learned Proph's Spring ability because it was the next season
My Winter ability does require a specific night, so I choose e.g. Vaimes and N2 and learn whether he was targeted that night or not
Aww, so much for that
I think you're scum because the way you're approaching me is not in line with how I've ALWAYS seen you approach things as town.
I feel like town you, for instance, wouldn't tolerate the BS of me choosing specifically not to tell you the reasons for my scumread on you. You don't feel the same. You're complaining that I'm not trying to figure out your mindset while also complaining that I'm shading you for no reason (without trying to dig too far into my read on you in the meantime).
I know you're trying to control your emotions or whatever, but that shouldn't change how you scumhunt, should it?
I didnt tolerate it? lol?
you being a wolf now, fully depends on Fulcrum's flip, and that doesnt happen anytime soon
and I dont think? I become a train today or even the next day phase as it stands
also its not like I'm not used to you being wrong anyways? I need to start thinking from the perspective of each player and not just assuming certain things are wolfy? town!killjoy is certainly capable of ignoring the majority of someone's posts and wolf reading someone because, "he push me he bad"
I'm going through Rhand's ISO and there's some weird interactions with Last.
125 singles out Last in vezok's posting, asking why he's a question mark. The intent there would be to figure out vezok's read on his scumbuddy.
In 300, there's a big old passage about Last: Each of these reads are very confident, despite being opposing.
1. Last's reaction to Nacho is 'very pure'. Kinda also uses Nacho getting flak to support Last's towniness there I think?
2. LAst's reaction to tom's gimmick is better than Axel's, therefore town.
3. Response to Vaimes 'bugs him big time', wants to get rid of Vaimes push.
4. None of his reads looks real, save the townread on me.
5. 'a lot of scum pings there, but then his posting gets suddenly better' with his questioning of Silver's vote on Rhand, worldbuiding, and pressure on vezok. My question here is why include the first part about all the scum pings, except to justify an undeserved towaread, which he gives Last (with a caveat that allows Rhand onto the wagon if his buddy plays badly.
I feel like this is a w/w interaction here. Rhand absolutely feels like he's forcing a townread on Last here, which I don't THINK Last ever questions? (edit, nope)
325: He's still on vezok's Last question markness.
331/334 Kinda pointless questions, but those are meh, just including them because they don't seem to be leading anywhere.
That's the last if interactions from his end. There's mention of last in 3209 in his scum list as a weak leantown read, then suddenly becomes possible mafia in 3309. He later says that this is because he (and I) are lower townreads so if he's right about Vaimes being neutral then there's scum in his townreads. It's just more flimsy 'town, but maybe scum' read.
I REALLY don't want to ISO Last right now to see if there's interactions from LAst's end. He has 500 posts.
All I really wanted to do was point out these things from Rhand's end though.
well lets be glad this isnt F3 then
Is this a day ability or night ability? If it's a day ability, you can easily just prove it today when we are ready to lynch.
I said this before, but if they are W/W I very much doubt Keldeo actually targeted fulcrum. My guess is fulcrum tried to kill N1, it failed, and they assume you were indeed responsible. The claim is intended to throw doubt on you.
I don't know how I feel about the info roles because of the narrow nature of the abilities and the fact that half of them aren't even good.
But in addition to Silver's points, with Tom having a flipped RB/jail ability, KCC having a verified RB, Proph claiming an orb RB and Keldeo claiming three straight-up RB abilities, that is just so much disruption and I find it hard to believe it's all town.
Vaimes verified the ability does what she says it does, so I doubt she's lying or withholding info unless they are both scum together, and even that seems bad because he'll get nuked immediately if she ever flips and the role says something different than what she claimed.
That said, it probably is the case that usually it falls out that the Town/Mafia each end up with some amount of "info" and/or "manipulative" type roles as a natural development of the process. I just wouldn't make it a game defining assumption.
I mean, maybe? You're also assuming here that everyone is claiming everything and claiming truthfully and it seems likely to me that scum would not be claiming everything/completely truthfully.
Just for example, if he's scum, I don't think that LW is ignorant of what his "dreams" do, and there probably would be more to it than what he's saying. Vaimes has proven the trader aspect of his role, but if he's scum, i would imagine there's probably something else he's not saying. Proph's role is complex enough that there might not be more to it, though he could be straight-up lying about the nature of the Orbs. They are kind of hard to verify (what they do, not that they exist).
This is not to say that I think it is likely that the last three scum are in this grouping. That would, indeed, feel wrong. I guess I'm just challenging your assumptions.
Like here, assuming (1) that scum must have an "Investigative" and (2) based on the current claims, that investigative can only be myself or fulcrum. I think both of those are dangerous assumptions.
And same here.
All that said, I'm finally going to do my own break down right now, and see if anything stands out.
Rhand:
God of the Underworld: Each Night choose a seasonal ability of a dead player. He gains that ability, but the season changes to match the current season (i.e. assuming the season changes by next night the ability would not normally be useable right away. Except for:
Godhood: 2x during the game, he can change the season of the ability he targets to be whatever season he wants it to be.
N1: No deaths, no possible targets?
N2: Only Nacho dead, and he had no "Seasonal" ability to take
Nacho:
Season Illusion: 1x during the Day, he can swap the current Season with the upcoming one.
D1: Swapped Spring with Summer. It went back to being Spring on D2/N2, and then skipped over Summer and went straight into Fall for N3.
Tomsloger:
Spring: Annoyance – Each Day in Spring, can target a player, that player must target you the following Night if able.
Fall: Forced Slumber – 1x per game at Night in Fall, Jailkeeper.
Winter: Hazy Memory – Each Night in Winter target a player and pick a season. Player will “forget” any abilities they have that match that season. (Permanently? Probably based on wording?)
N1 was Summer. No ability
N2 was Spring. No ability. It is possible Tom targeted someone during D1 before Nacho changed the Season. I would assume this ability would still go off in that case. No one has claimed to have been re-directed to Tom on N1.
Gemma:
Unknown role.
Killed D1 by a burning ray of light that came from the Sun. It is possible this had something to do with her own role, because it’s “Aurora,” and her role was Stolen/Copied/Reflected.
She might also just have been straight-up daykilled by a scum with a daykill ability. This kill did not recur during the following Summer day, suggesting it was a 1x deal.
Grapefruit:
Masons with Vez.
Next thing I'm looking at are all the Role-Blocking-Type claims, to see how they add up and whether they might reasonably exist together in the same Town.
We appear to have:
(1) KCC: Role-Block only in Spring. "Delay" in Fall. "Targeter-Delayer" in Winter. 2x Bus Drive is any season once active, but it doesn't activate until Summer?
(2) Keldeo: Summer Role-Block. Target picked during the day and blocked the following Night. Winter RB. Target at Night(?) If successfully prevent an (non-factional) ability, lose this and gain a copy of it.
(3) Proph: Green Orbs. Has to give one person a Green Orb, which is only in Spring - baring his special # of freebies. Then give someone else a Green or Orange Orb (Orange is only Fall). Then, if a player with a Green Orb targets a player with a Green or Orange Orb, they get Rbed.
(4) Tom: 1x Jailkeeper in Fall.
It strikes me that the "Role-Blocks" from these roles happen in different Seasons. KCC is Spring. Keldeo is Summer. Tom is Fall, and only 1x, and also a Jailkeeper. Proph's is technically anytime, but so hard to actually get to go off. You add them up and they are kind of like one full-time role blocker. There's a certain elegance to that, and it makes it hard for me to say that there's "definitely" scum in one of these slots (that is, for the RBing ability reason alone.) I'm sure that was intended by our Mod.
Of course, they all have other abilities too, besides the RBs. Also, some of them have seasons with no abilities.
Tom, missing Summer.
Keldeo, missing Spring and Fall
KCC, all seasons, technically, but if I understand correctly, the Summer ability is more of an ability that becomes "available" during Summer, but can then be used anytime?
Proph, all seasons, different Orbs.
I might agree that, if there's a point of contrast here, it's strongest between KCC and Keldeo, because they are the only "pure" Rbers from this list. I don't think that single fact is quite incriminating enough for my tastes, especially given the potential for other scum to be lying. It's worth noting though, and continuing on.
If last is town, it'd be because giving clean town reads to too many townies is a bad idea. In that world, Rhand wasn't ready to go at Last yet, but wanted to lay ground work for later
Right. But, the rest of that stands, the mafia reason for how it works is to always hit, and never hit scum (as that'd be useless). It is still a really garbage scum power though.
(1) Silver:
Spring - None.
Summer - Learn if a player has a Fall ability + learn its name (except in the corner case scenario we got which was Spring following Summer.
Fall - Learn if a living player ever targeted a dead player
Winter - Learn if a player was targeted on a past night of Silver's choice
(2) fulcrum:
Spring - Learn name of a Non-Mafia who took an action
Summer - None
Fall - Learn names of two player who have "Fall" abilities (and which are "Fall only" as well?)
Winter - Learn the name of a random Winter ability.
(3) Keldeo (technically)
Winter - if he successfully RBs, he gets a copy of that player's ability
(4) Proph (technically)
Yellow Orbs - they give the ability to learn the names of abilities that target the player. Technically this doesn't tell the player anything directly about another player.
(5) Vaimes
Can trade away abilities (including a 1-shot Tracker ability. He then gains an ability of the player he targeted.
(6) dking (technically)
Because when he bodyguards someone, they get told it is happening?
(7) Axelrod
Spring - See if a player was targeted
Summer - See who targets a player (Watch)
Fall - Learn names of all abilities that target a player that night
Winter - See first player to target a player (limited Watch)
(8) Tom (technically)
Because he could force someone to target him if they were able. In Spring.
This is a bit of a mess for me, again, with the knowledge that scum are probably lying about something, it's very hard to draw a definite conclusion here.
Like, fulcrum's Spring ability is the best one claimed, because it's a guaranteed clear. That is actually good. Fall ability might have a tiny bit of utility keeping scum honest. The Winter one is kinda bad.
Silver's abilities are kinda "meh." The Fall one is okay, if you can "clear" someone from having done the kill, or, best case, catch someone who should not have been able to target the deceased (or who claimed never to have). The Summer one maybe keep scum a little honest, at least about their ability names. Likewise, the Winter one could maybe confirm someone's claim to have targeted, if not what they were doing.
I have two reasonable abilities and two less good ones. Spring and Fall are only okay for "confirming" other claims (or the fact that I have those abilities, really) Summer/Winter could actually catch someone.
Those are the most controlled "Information" abilities. The other ones are more random.
It's weird to me that apparently we only have one cop-like ability in the entire game, and it's limited to randomly clearing someone who took an action in the Spring. So, people who this ability could actually "clear" would seem to be:
KCC
Killjoy (apparently)
Proph
Vaimes
Axelrod
If the ability counts people who could take "Day" Spring actions, then the list expands to include Nacho and Tom, with Nacho being 1x only. I suppose if LW choosing one of his dreams counts then it could include him also. KCC, Proph, and me (and Killjoy?) are the only ones who will always have a Spring ability.
Can never "clear" Silver, Keldeo, dking, Asta (and Masons, not that they would need it)
Possibly noteworthy that KCC's ability seems to turn this off also.
Gotta run. So, just posting as I go.
I had originally misread my Fall ability, which I realized while deciding my target last night. It doesn't delay the person I target, rather it delays any other abilities that target my target. I used it on Silver so we could definitely get his results, it doesn't seem like anyone targeted him though
I'm trying to wrap my head around what KCC does. So, Fall is "Delay" any abilities that target your target. And Winter is "the person who targets your target will have their next action delayed" (not the current one that is targeting your target, whatever it is). Is that correct?
I realized that when looking through your list at all of the name cop powers. I might be happy I haven't yet though. -I definitely want to do that before Night, but hold on for now
If you want my reasoning, there's a whole thing I wrote, but out of respect for it making people uncomfortable, I will not cut and paste again.
Basically, I looked at everyone and tried to narrow down who I thought the scum would be most likely to target based on what we had. I started by taking out the people who were on the block D1, as those people were either scum themselves or people the scum would likely consider mis-lynch candidates. Those people were: (me - not that I can target myself) KCC, dking, Nacho.
Then I took out the claimed Masons, because I did not think the scum would go for them so early, even if they were real (and I was not 100% they were even real). Powerless Town who are not actually cleared yet to anyone else seemed low priority for full strength scum.
Then I took out Asta, because everyone was screaming for dking to put his bodyguard on Asta, and also because sometime double-voter would not seem a huge threat to them yet.
Next I took out Vaimes, Killjoy and fulcrum. On these I meta-gamed a bit because all of them were at least somewhat anti-me on D1, thinking the scum would like to keep those people around to get a mislynch on me later if possible. In addition, Vaimes had garnered some suspicion himself, and I thought it less likely the scum would shoot at him. Killjoy was widely town-read, and I actually thought maybe too town-read, meaning he would have been a good Doc-protect target if the Town had a Doc. and the scum might have avoided him for that reason. Finally, I thought fulcrum's claim thusfar seemed weird and not especially threatening to the scum.
Next I took out LW and Proph. LW because he just seems so random and inconsistent that I did not think the scum would view him as a threat yet. Proph because he had barely even started to play at that point (and that would be rude of them).
That left me with a group of 4: Silver, Rhand, Keldeo, Tom.
I eliminated Keldeo because I though he was still carrying some Mindreaver baggage. Then Tom, and this was a closer call because he was not anti-me, and I though the scum might view him as a potential threat. Ultimately what decided me here was because of his stupid rapping all Day 1, and the fact we were going to be "Spring" again the next day (this was assuming there had been a NK) and he might be Rapping again, would make him ineffectual as Town at least for that day.
Leaving me between Silver and Rhand. And I just decided I thought Rhand was more likely to be scum than Silver.
(ok, technically, I said I thought Rhand was marginally more likely to be scum, but that doesn't sound as smart. :p)
Silver: One empty slot, but otherwise the claimed abilities seem confirmable.
Keldeo: Two empty slots - though lying about not having a seasonal ability in this game does seem risky. And the others seem confirmable.
fulcrum: One empty slot. Spring and Winter ability claims seem fake-able. Although I don't think Killjoy had claimed anything when fulcrum "cleared" him? Am I wrong about that? So at a very minimum as scum she would have to have an ability that determines if someone took and action here. Or she's just scum with Killjoy and it's a huge gambit.
Vaimes: Room for him to have omitted something. I mean, he is omitting something.
dking: Definitely room for something else besides BG. Risky if he has a Night action he's not claimed though.
Asta: One empty slot. But double voting is proved and the lynch-threshold thing seems unlikely to be a false claim.
And the claims with the least room (because they have claimed abilities in every Season).
Me - I'm biased, but there's stuff I can learn each Season I can't fake. I mean, later in the game I could theoretically fake a result, but not now.
Proph - could be lying about what Orbs do. Seems like later in the game this could get exposed though.
KCC - Spring and Summer already confirmed. Others seem unlikely to be fake claims, except that Winter thing could technically be because it doesn't show up until late.
LW - could be omitting something (like he could know what the abilities do), but the naming in the opening of day scenes is fairly compelling that he's picking them, and having another completely separate ability on top of the things we've seen seems less likely
Killjoy is still mostly a blank here. He took an action N2. And he traded some ability to Vaimes for the vest.
I don't suppose, Vaimes, you want to opine on the Towniness of the ability that Killjoy gave you? Without saying what it is?
Also her cop ability heavily implies that there's a neutral in the game, because it specifically returns a "not mafia" result, so it isn't clearing, per say. Or it's a red herring. Either way, not groupscum, so whatever.
KJ had not claimed by the time fulcrum softed her check on him (I think he is still unclaimed), and he traded me his spring ability last Night so I know it exists.
The ability KJ gave me is pretty meh, not very useful for either alignment. KJ can claim it slash have me claim it, if he wants.