the first point I will say before I leave
I don't RVS anymore, as either alignment, and I've stated that several times before I believe, even outside of this game
so like using that even if it's a small part, is just like ???
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
this doesn’t say anything? This is just a list of all my votes? You could’ve taken the time to analysis each and every one of them, because that means more than just saying, “Well he voted so many townies”, because 1. Who I vote doesn’t matter, what matters, is why I voted Handling Rhand
Here’s the progression on Rhand:
332: I dont know at this point of Rhand is trying to inflate the how scummy he thinks Axel's question is, is malicious, or just how he sees it 648: He’s null, because “he doesn’t have a reason to hate him yet.” 691: He’s still null, was made in response to Silver’s mini Rhand case (690). Last says he’s gonna ISO him. 747, Last is against voting Rhand because of the veracity of his scumread on Silver. 866: Still doesn’t want to lynch Rhand today. 966,988,991: 966 is actually a bunch of decently hardball questions to Rhand. After that though, he backs off immediately. 1278: Ranks Rhand as scummiest of his null reads. 2530: Per his reads list: There’s no reason to think he’s town. 3166: Rhand’s push on Vaimes is +town 3437: Rhand’s push, looking back, was somewhat forced, so he will happily vote there. 3507,3508: Votes Rhand, after first accidently voting Proph.
He kept Rhand as an option for as long as he could until he couldn’t anymore. He maintained a nullread for more than 3000 posts, then is just suddenly ok with lynching him. Rhand was under significant pressure for a bit there and he still didn’t commit to a read there.
Lets talk about my progression on Rhand, Rhand is a good player, as both a wolf and town, and anyone that doesn’t believe that is lying to themselves. Specifically Rhand could easily make that read on Killjoy regardless of his alignment, and there was literally no reason to assume malicious intent there. My vote on Rhand on the day he was lynched was because I don’t sit off wagon in a majority lynch system, especially given the fact that the lynch threshold was increased. But I also still have to convince myself its ok, or I am actively going to push for something else. I reread Rhand and concluded that the push on Killjoy can be wolfy enough for me to consider lynching him, “if I separate it from his meta”, ignoring the fact that both alignments of Rhand could make that push.
There also really anything to evaluate here? This is you just rehashing my thoughts, that I really thought about, with that tiny paragraph? 332, is me trying to understand Rhand’s mindset, cause that’s what matters, that’s how you read Rhand, and if you don’t, you end up mislynching him. In 648, I had no reason to hate him? Did I ever say I did, else I don’t see why that matters? 691, I wanted to give Silver’s thought some merit, because in the end, this is a team game. 747 is broken, so I’m not gunna go find it. 866 was Tom’s post, and I looked for anything that resembled what your wrote, and didn’t find it. 966, is me trying to understand why Rhand thinks that Vaimes is so town? Me still trying to understand a slot that even though I have been reluctant to lynch, I still want to understand. #1278, picks Rhand as the scummiest of a PoE, ok? #2530, I didn’t want to lynch Rhand day 1 because I didn’t think he did anything wolfy, but at the time of #2530 he certainly hasn’t done anything townie? so whats the problem? 3166, I look at both worlds, I’m not a wolf trying to bury someone, I liked his push there? Is this just, bad cause wrong? Like I really don’t understand pushing me for calling Rhand town when I am uninformed. #3437, I re-evaluated. 3508 my vote ends up on Rhand, ok? Like we need to reach a hammer? I think my progression on Rhand was fine given how strong a of player he was. Unlike you, who just insta wolf read him off nothing, and then just backed off it for the rest of the game
Vezok seems like an ~okay vote but I need to reread her
I'm not saying "don't vote Mindreaver" I'm saying if we're going to lunch him we should just do it instead of letting the game drag on for another two weeks.
well Im not voting Rhand solely because you are on it
ur last sentence is actually so wolfy...
you and vaimes have these reads on Mindreaver, that just feel like TMI, like everything just feels so reachy
and now you don't care if he is lynched?
we are not ending the day phase this early since we don't have enough posts from certain players to ascertain a possible alignment read on them without just straight-up winging it
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
DK Progression
427, 430
This is really early, like super early, we have two big trains given how much time occurred in the day phase, which wasn’t a lot. Like his train exists? I stand by my earlier thoughts of, “Why is this a thing”
Like he has 7 posts I think at this time? And he is clearly pushing out thoughts and not just non-sense? If I think something is stupid I will most certainly voice it
453
I am trying to understand what perspective this is coming from, I can’t understand my own thoughts here. So its hard to defend whats happening here, can’t tell if I was calling DK’s thoughts or Silver’s thoughts not wolfy? I used to think dismissing trains was like obvious wolf, but I’ve stopped thinking that, that only comes from a wolf
485
Again, I am not saying he is town here, but concluding that someone is wolfy off just 7 posts is wild, and that’s coming from me who used to call out wolves in RVS
648
Null is where he belongs, and to pay mind to 737, #changemymind
1494
Don’t really have a response to this, hard to understand my mindset during every post when someone happened so long ago
1861,1869
God I don’t even know why I would think this? And assuming makes an ass out of you and me, what you think I should be doing doesn’t necessarily me that’s what my mind thinks I should be doing
2770
So why did you quote this? BG is an easy claim sure, but like he built seasonal based mechanics around it, and there was no protective role claimed other than that at the time, so like, I think my thoughts are fine
3012
I am not pushing a Vezok/Grape wolf world? What are you talking about? And I don’t really know how I concluded that Fulcrum/DK world, luck I guess?
3055
Tell me what exactly is wolfy coming from DK, like I truly believe he wasn’t wolfy till his attack on Proph, whether u want to believe that or not. And at the time it was so hard to separate Asta and DK, if DK was in fact a wolf
3114
Proph comes in attacking DK out of nowhere, and nobody was really talking about DK at the time, so like it just bothered me. I believe what I said here, Proph came off as a busser. My problem was assuming malicious intent when there really wasn’t any
#3953
You call Asta town here, there is still no super strong reason to believe he is town, its like you are using current information, to question my vote days prior, which is malicious, something that’s not even flipped. All Asta had for him was being pure at the time, he looked worse than DK, and I don’t even necessarily remember if I believed they had to be linked still
4366
It was, he didn’t even try to understand Proph, it was by definition, an OMGUS
4415, 4417
Thanks? Again this game was hard
4904,4905
Believe this or not, its wine at best, but like now we know only one wolf exists, and if I am a wolf, then proph is town, and would never fencesit on a town, and end my vote on my partner, when my other god damn partner wanted to vote a town, that’s actually gamethrowing.
Why are we assuming malicious intent, in either my progression of Rhand or DK, when there just isn’t any? DK and Rhand both played a very strong wolf game, like no doubt about that. It was hard to find them
Fulcrum Associations
#648
First off, there is literally no order to his at all, I don’t order my groupings lmao, this is so nitpicky
And I explained exactly why Fulcrum was there, I believed Tom was 100% town, for like the first time ever, and I sheeped his read
#2530
Had to go find a VC
Ohh wait… THIS IS LITERALLY THE DAY OF THE KING MAKER
I literally called out a wolf team of Rhand/KCC/Fulcrum, a couple posts later
Where do you get this idea that I am not pushing my thoughts?
#3055
Why exactly is this a wolfy thought for me? It’s literally not? How many wolves do you see CC a god damn town. Seriously tell me
None of your associations say why I am a wolf, but I will put the rest of my thoughts in another post
Voting Record
He doesn’t vote during RVS. He’s here, and doing things, but doesn’t vote. This isn’t always a tell, but it’s worth noting I feel, especially with how opinionated Last typically is. The first time he actually voted for scum (DK) was in 1793, but there’s no real progression showing me that it’s suspicion that came on naturally, and it’s not really substantiated.There’s also a bit just before we lynch DK (around 4218ish) where he keeps voting DK, then jumps to a townie (and fulcrum). and then back to dk. I believe this was pushing away from dk. I believe that fulcrum wasn’t really under any pressure right then, so those votes were probably safe. I believe it might also be noteable that in 3507, he votes Proph accidently, when he meant to vote Rhand (3508).
I don’t join RVS
I don’t really know why I voted DK over Axel there, actually a few pages back I just randomly voted Axel as well, so I cant really explain that progression honestly
Again with the whole, “voting a townie argument”? How exactly was this pushing away from DK? Did you actually look at my progression in between all that, or did you just use the votes to create a narrative? Like its not about the votes, but the whys, and sure, you can argue both my above Axel, and DK vote were bad, because I didn’t say anything, IDK why I did that
What exactly does 3507 even say? You think that was some kind of goofy distance? You gotta tell me what you think, else I can’t provide a counter argument
Late Mindreaver Vote
546, 610,611, 630: Votes Mindreaver for calling saying last’s entrance was ‘townier than it’s been in a while’ or something of that nature and Last kinda latches onto that. I believe it’s noteable that Mind hasn’t had that opinion for about 500 posts, so this vote is really weak on a townie. I also noted in my VCA post that this vote is partially a sheep on Tom.
I thought that thought was so full of TMI, giving my entrances for like all the past games were literally the same, and if anything, less townier. Why exactly does not having having that opinion for 500 posts, mean in terms of the opinion he had then? Its not going to make me not believe that I think he original read on me was TMI, maybe I will think he latter posts are townie, but like his read on me is still going to bug me. I don’t understand why this vote is weak? Define weak for me? IDK what the last sentence means?
Your whole VCA analysis is just bad, but like from your PoV you have to push it I think? Wolves don’t have to be anywhere, clusters of town and wolves can happen, all town wagons can happen. You can’t just say look at Wisp, “He voted all these towns, he is such a baddie”. This is just your last attempt to put a nail in the coffin, by creating reasons for why I have to be scum, because you can’t talk about why I am actually a wolf. Being wrong != being a wolf.
I fence sat on a lot of people, not just my buddies in a wolf!me world, but I guess that doesn’t help your narrative, does it?
So I will end this with what I’ve said over and over. Why am I a wolf?
Vezok seems like an ~okay vote but I need to reread her
I'm not saying "don't vote Mindreaver" I'm saying if we're going to lunch him we should just do it instead of letting the game drag on for another two weeks.
well Im not voting Rhand solely because you are on it
ur last sentence is actually so wolfy...
you and vaimes have these reads on Mindreaver, that just feel like TMI, like everything just feels so reachy
and now you don't care if he is lynched?
we are not ending the day phase this early since we don't have enough posts from certain players to ascertain a possible alignment read on them without just straight-up winging it
Here's 747.
Also it was supposed to be 886, not 866
the first sentence was just me being petty
Silver wants to end the day early, thats not townie
and if I think someone is wolfy, I am not just going to assume randomly that they are voting their partner, but I've had a lot of emotional explosions this game, that I regret, that affected how I read people, and pushed things
I think you're missing the point. The reasons matter, but also the process. You jump from read to read reactively. And during the points up to even the school are gonna be lunched, you have actively been scum reading town. Then you commit to lunch the scum when the scum are under tremendous pressure.
You have to see how bad that looks.
And reasons matter for sure. But like. Take that read on Silver. You pushed against Rhand because silver was being scummy. Because someone voting then is scummy is not a good reason to town read someone.
And you didn't readdress the wagons.
I feel like you're going out of your way to scum read me here.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I jump reads a lot when I am town
I proactively vote and reactively vote, yes, the latter isn't necessarily wolfy anyways
A lot of my votes are bad, but I've explained my thoughts at all points, and yes I voted wolves in a spots when there was not many says out, does that mean I am distancing, no
Stop saying the last sentence, it's like you are using it as some new justification for why I can be a wolf, we all know today is going to end up on either me or you, so it doesn't matter
The whole silver/Rhand reaction was me being petty, nothing more nothing less
like for me to assume Asta, I have to believe that the wolves of Asta/Fulcrum, were just never on at the same time? which is a thing? but like again Silver's dead body confirms that Asta was targeted, and there are posts from DK in particular where he shades Asta, and sure maybe the lack of vote means i shouldn't put it at face value, but like, Asta is still just so pure
There isn't a malicious bone in their body, and the way they unvoted Fulcrum yesterday, felt like real paranoia
in terms of Proph, people may think this is silly, but the way he posted after almost every lynch he was around with, "I hope this is a hit", just feels so uninformed. He also has clearly been trying to solve, and he is the very reason why I voted DK and Fulcrum. Also all game I got this vibe that he was just playing his own game, and not working with a team, or pushing this narrative.
you on the other hand, spent most the latter game on me being a wolf, while everyone else was trying to figure this game out, hiding behind a cop check of a dead wolf now
I am not just PoEing you, I have talked about reasons, as to why you could go either way
but like I'd be lying if I didn't say I believed everyone else just looked better
Idk when I'll get the chance to build a case on you, but like the day doesnt end till the 23rd, so
@Last: My point with that last sentence is it doesn't feel like your heart is in it.
Also nothign you've said really disproves any of my points. Of course you have reasons for your votes. Scum would have reasons for their votes, out of a need to justify them.
Even if you were to just vote at random, you'd hit scum 25% of the time. You're not though, your votes are all there for a reason, I'm just saying the motive and intent behind them is different from what you say.
I'm also gonna make some time right now to make a point I had intended to make in my case, but it got convoluted, so I dumped it with intent to go back. I'm gonna make it now I think.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Axel & DK (+Fulcrum) Not Both Scum, So It's Probably Axel 1869: Suggests we either find a real CFD or we lynch one of Axel or DK. 1883: Does the same with Axel and Fulcrum, actually. Didn't see this originally. 1885,1887: Seems to be talking himself out of fulcrum being likely scum. 1899: Talks himself INTO Axel.
Then Day ends, and a new day begins... and there's no mention of this trichotomy or Axel or DK or anything. He questions fulcrum a bit about her role and the correlations between his and her role, she gives an ok answer, and it's not persued past this point.
Asta + DK Probably Both Scum, So Lets Lynch Asta First 3055: First mention of the link between Asta and DK. Waffles a bit on both Asta and DK, but has less town reasons for Asta. 3098: If DK is a wolf and not BG, Asta is always a wolf. Also doubts DK a bit. 3563: Still linking DK and Asta here, still exploring there. Also of note here (has nothing to do with this point I'm making) is that he thinks that DK and Asta could be scum together but that being true would be "as dangerous as a mason claim". But he thinks that fulcrum/me are buddies because she claimed a green check on me. 3735: Doubting Asta because he confirmed DK's shot without knowing that DK is scum yet. 3953: Votes Asta over DK while still thinking DK is a wolf.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Axel & DK (+Fulcrum) Not Both Scum, So It's Probably Axel 1869: Suggests we either find a real CFD or we lynch one of Axel or DK. 1883: Does the same with Axel and Fulcrum, actually. Didn't see this originally. 1885,1887: Seems to be talking himself out of fulcrum being likely scum. 1899: Talks himself INTO Axel.
Then Day ends, and a new day begins... and there's no mention of this trichotomy or Axel or DK or anything. He questions fulcrum a bit about her role and the correlations between his and her role, she gives an ok answer, and it's not persued past this point.
Asta + DK Probably Both Scum, So Lets Lynch Asta First 3055: First mention of the link between Asta and DK. Waffles a bit on both Asta and DK, but has less town reasons for Asta. 3098: If DK is a wolf and not BG, Asta is always a wolf. Also doubts DK a bit. 3563: Still linking DK and Asta here, still exploring there. Also of note here (has nothing to do with this point I'm making) is that he thinks that DK and Asta could be scum together but that being true would be "as dangerous as a mason claim". But he thinks that fulcrum/me are buddies because she claimed a green check on me. 3735: Doubting Asta because he confirmed DK's shot without knowing that DK is scum yet. 3953: Votes Asta over DK while still thinking DK is a wolf.
Derp, forgot to add the conclusion.
I feel like this adds to Last's consistantly irregular voting pattern that keeps falling away from the scum. He could have seriously dug into scum several times but he keeps ending up on the Town side of the line when deciding who to push/vote seriously.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Lmao I really am a walking back of contradiction, but like I didn't plan on focusing on this game tonight, and I'm still not going to, given unless I finish my other stuff
Killjoy: I don't know if you addressed this or not, but can you talk about this:
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also agree with Last on this. While Last and I were wavering, you just showed up out of nowhere to hammer fulcrum after Last voted her (Last voted her at 1:03, you voted her at 1:04). You showing up literally out of nowhere to hammer fulcrum can't help but make me think that something was coordinated there.
KJ: Can you give me a detailed account of what was going through your mind between when you went to sleep that Friday morning, and when you showed up at 1 PM to hammer fulcrum?
What happened at the tail end of Yesterday continues to bother me.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Axel & DK (+Fulcrum) Not Both Scum, So It's Probably Axel 1869: Suggests we either find a real CFD or we lynch one of Axel or DK. 1883: Does the same with Axel and Fulcrum, actually. Didn't see this originally. 1885,1887: Seems to be talking himself out of fulcrum being likely scum. 1899: Talks himself INTO Axel.
Then Day ends, and a new day begins... and there's no mention of this trichotomy or Axel or DK or anything. He questions fulcrum a bit about her role and the correlations between his and her role, she gives an ok answer, and it's not persued past this point.
Asta + DK Probably Both Scum, So Lets Lynch Asta First 3055: First mention of the link between Asta and DK. Waffles a bit on both Asta and DK, but has less town reasons for Asta. 3098: If DK is a wolf and not BG, Asta is always a wolf. Also doubts DK a bit. 3563: Still linking DK and Asta here, still exploring there. Also of note here (has nothing to do with this point I'm making) is that he thinks that DK and Asta could be scum together but that being true would be "as dangerous as a mason claim". But he thinks that fulcrum/me are buddies because she claimed a green check on me. 3735: Doubting Asta because he confirmed DK's shot without knowing that DK is scum yet. 3953: Votes Asta over DK while still thinking DK is a wolf.
ok I do have enough time for this?
again I will state how none of this really makes me wolfy?
like the top trains at that time in day 1, were both Axel and DK? and I was adamantly against no lynching, so its like we nut up or shut up on either of those two, or cfd?
1883, is me doubting two watchers being town? and 1885 was me realizing I read Fulcrum's claim wrong?
I wasnt talking my self out of Fulcrum being scum there? but again this still comes down to, "I don't believe many wolves have the balls to CC a town", why are we assuming this is even malicious? you are actually just throwing out all the points where I like fulcrum or any of the other wolves, and just saying that makes me a wolf with them?
1889 is me coming to a conclusion based on the current top trains and all the mechanical information? it's not distinctly me saying I will bull rush Axel with my vote? and IDK why I even said watchers are more likely to be a wolf, cause that's not really true. Again both ccing and then retracting was indeed strange, and hard to evaluate
I've already explained exactly my thoughts on DK and Asta at the points of the posts, I am not restating every opinion I had at each point involving DK/Asta
Like again this is just you picking at all my interactions with wolves
I respect his way of looking at partner interactions between Rhand and dkings, but the fact ultimately remains is that he's only looking at half of the context here - in that KJ is only looking at how Last treats Rhand, rather than also looking at how Rhand treats Last.
I guess this is a good springboard for me to start my reread (looking at Rhand's interactions with Killjoy and Last) so here goes:
These are the first words Rhand says about Last:
Quote from Rhand »
Lastwhisper:
He starts his own sidegame instead of playing the game at first, and then calls Nacho wolfy for his reaction to KCC, which I think was a very pure reaction. Nacho gets more flak for that though; too much to all come from scum.
He doesn’t like tom’s gimmick, but his reaction to it is better than Axelrod’s: he merely says he’s not a fan of the gimmick and that tom doesn’t give him town vibes. Ergo, he’s not calling the gimmick itself scummy, which is good.
His response to Vaimes where he uses the word “probably” talking about his tells not being AI bugs me bigtime. It looks like he jokingly wants to get rid of Vaimes’ push.
His reads in #163 don’t look like real reads. He doesn’t give a real read on both Vaimes and Silver and waffles on Nacho. The only thing there is a townread on KJ.
A lot of scum!pings there, but his later posts are suddenly way better. I like how he questions Silver’s Rhand vote and how he starts real worldbuilding and pressuring Vezok.
Verdict: lean town (if he’s scum he won’t keep up his new posting)
Think there are multiple ways to interpret this post but I do think this particular Rhand interaction isn't great for Last, especially if we compare Rhand's Last read to KJ.
Quote from Rhand »
KillJoy:
He’s very easy to read as town, and this is town!him.
I wonder if he can mimick his towngame as scum. I haven’t seen him as scum in a loooong time. But I doubt he can. His towngame is extremely pure.
Verdict: town
Rhand's KJ read makes me think that he knows that KJ is town, while Rhand goes into a lot more depth onto his Last read. I think that it's more likely for him to overexplain his read on Last like this if they are buddies together.
This is only one data point out of the many I'm sure I'll be looking over in this post, but I do think that this particular interaction does look good for KJ and not great for Last.
Quote from Rhand »
That I wanted to scumread LW for attacking you, but he isn’t the only one, so the attack in itself becomes NAI unless the whole scumteam decides to jump on you there.
Do you agree LW is probably town? Attacking both sides would be pretty bad scum play.
This is in response to Nacho asking Rhand about Rhand's read on Last. Throughout of most of early Day 1, Rhand continues to defend Last and think Last is town. This doesn't mean a whole lot on its own because I think Last was in a position where Rhand would townread him regardless of alignment, but it's important to note.
Quote from Rhand »
Last is misguided and flails a lot but he’s not trying to abuse the mechanics to win (which would be scum!last)
(this is in response to tom saying that Last is town).
In the meantime Killjoy is asking softball questions to Rhand, such as:
Quote from KJ »
Rhand has too many townreads.
Rhand: Talk to me about Axel a bit. Why is his attitude towards tom's gimmick scummy?
Why is Asta scum?
Also talk to me about Axel's 308 as well.
Quote from KJ »
Hey Rhand talk to me about your potential scum buddy Vaimes.
To the last one, Rhand responds like this:
Quote from Rhand »
I’m starting to wonder if you’re really in the Rhand tunnel again or if you’re faking it to have a place to park your vote.
The level of confidence you’re showing in this read is over-the-top considering our recent past where you went from “I can read Rhand now” to being wrong about me every time.
Gonna need to keep rereading Rhand in order to see what KJ/Rhand make of this, but I think this can go both ways based solely on this interaction. Mafia Rhand and mafia KJ could be trying to distance a little bit based off of these comments, while mafia Rhand could be exasperated by town KJ's tunneling. I am aware this is fencesitting but I'll get off the fence most likely after I keep rereading.
It is worth noting that Rhand dipped KJ in his "reads" a little later on, right here:
Quote from Rhand »
Others I’m not opposed to right now would be Vaimes, maybe KillJoy and Axel. I’m not sure about Gemma anymore, but not interested in her lynch toDay.
Which.. I think is an act that he would make more likely if KJ was town? Unsure. Like there is some mafia motivation to distance even further, but I think Killjoy was in a very good position for most of this Day 1 and I feel like mafia Rhand would want to keep him up there and townread him rather than waste his thread time fighting with his buddy that was widely townread at that point.
Rhand continues to interact with Last in only the most cursory manner, only responding to questions Last asks.
Quote from Rhand »
I think KJ is scum. After all the times he was wrong about my alignment, I should be at least in his lean reads.
As town I always saw him evolve the read at least. Now he just throws me in his mafia reads.
I think he sees me as an easy “scumread“ because I always catch flak early game.
vote Killjoy
Here's Rhand's KJ vote. Now here lies the question: Was KJ's scumread of Rhand legit? Feels like if we answer this question we get the game. If it isn't legit then we lynch KJ and he flips mafia. If it IS legit, then it's a valuable piece of evidence we can use to clear KJ and investigate possibilities of scum!Last playing game-of-his-life here.
So my issue here is that KJ's progression on Rhand doesn't feel particularly.. organic? Looking at KJ's early posts his progression on Rhand is something like this:
Quote from Killjoy »
Rhand has too many townreads.
Rhand: Talk to me about Axel a bit. Why is his attitude towards tom's gimmick scummy?
Why is Asta scum?
Also talk to me about Axel's 308 as well.
Quote from Killjoy »
Hey Gemma, what do you think of that list Rhand posted?
Quote from Killjoy »
So. I don't like any of that recent posts.
Vote Rhand
Quote from Killjoy »
Hey Rhand talk to me about your potential scum buddy Vaimes.
This jump in conviction and the fact that KJ doesn't really arrive to the scum!Rhand read organically is setting off some alarm bells for me. KJ doesn't talk about /what/ posts he doesn't like of Rhand's, his only point he's tried to make so far in favor of mafia Rhand is that he had "too many townreads". This doesn't read at all genuine to me (and it smacks of inside information).
Killjoy - I don't know if you recall, but why exactly were you scumreading Rhand so strongly at the beginning of the game here? It isn't apparent to me at all from your posts how you were able to be so confident on scum Rhand, so quickly. Your progression isn't visible from your early game posts unless I'm missing something.
This was kind of a long detour but I want to clear this up because these interactions don't feel organic to me IMO.
Back to looking at Rhand interactions:
Quote from Rhand »
I think KJ is scum. After all the times he was wrong about my alignment, I should be at least in his lean reads.
As town I always saw him evolve the read at least. Now he just throws me in his mafia reads.
I think he sees me as an easy “scumread“ because I always catch flak early game.
vote Killjoy
Rhand votes KJ here. Rhand and KJ have this little slapfight/argument on page 21 here.
Quote from Rhand »
I’m going to ignore my instinct and let KJ slide for now. Too many of my townreads are calling this v/v.
Eeeeeeehhhh yeah.
Again, this may be confirmation bias, but I can pretty easily see a world where scum KJ and scum Rhand have this little slapfight in order to distance from each other, and then they both go back to townreading each other/not fighting like nothing happened. It makes more sense too with how KJ latched onto Rhand - that scumread did not feel natural.
Quote from Killjoy »
Somebody tell me what villager Rhand is doing this game.
Rhand: Link me the best towngame you can and best scumgame you can. Recent doesn't matter. Your style hasn't changed in a while.
Quote from Killjoy »
Tom can YOU weigh in on why Rhand is town?
Quote from Killjoy »
Rhand: I really wish they weren't Micros. Micros aren't Mafia.
But I've liked your reaction to pressure, and my gut tells me that scum!you probably would have noticed I wasn't voting you anymore way before now. So I'm willing to let this simmer overNight.
I'm also kind of a fan of your saying that you believe I should be more apprehensive given my history with you. I can see you actually believe that. The problem with that logic in general, though, is: if I were apprehensive of every read I was usually wrong about... I'd literally never have any reads. Some of my hard town reads are scum, some of my hard scum reads are town. I don't really have the time to second guess EVERYTHING. So, when I feel something particularly strongly, I jump off that cliff. I'm finding it's better (and more likely to catch scum) to be wrong than indecisive.
Yeah whole Rhand/KJ slapfight kind of just... ended randomly lol
Quote from Rhand »
What is transitive property?
If we get another daykill toDay, LW needs to die.
I’m actually thinking it might be a good idea to end this Day asap and hope whoever has that role hasn’t checked in yet.
We won’t be getting any real info now anyways with no one voting for lynch.
Elect Vezok
Don't think that Rhand just calls for his buddy to die like this?
So yeah, this post is kind of all over the place, but tldr: Last and Rhand don't have stellar interactions, but I find Killjoy's and Rhand's mutual suspicion of each other then both of them immediately walking them back to be very unnatural and suspicious, especially since I think that KJ's progression on Rhand was nearly nonexistent. Want KJ to address my suspicions along with the EoD stuff from Yesterday.
I'll take a look at both of their interactions with dk in an hour or so but would like people to read my big post up above. I know it's large and it meanders but I can't not ignore that.
Again maybe it's just confirmation bias speaking but stuff just doesn't add up.
I'll take a look at both of their interactions with dk in an hour or so but would like people to read my big post up above. I know it's large and it meanders but I can't not ignore that.
Again maybe it's just confirmation bias speaking but stuff just doesn't add up.
I've read it, and I think your points are fair on both me and Killjoy
Clearly all the wolves were pocketing me this game
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'll see what you say, but it still doesn't inspire me with confidence that you voted Rhand and cited a bunch of Rhand's posts without explaining, why, exactly, you disliked them.
You won't win any voters by saying "hi, I'm scumreading this person because I don't like these posts" and then not explain why.
Killjoy - I don't know if you recall, but why exactly were you scumreading Rhand so strongly at the beginning of the game here? It isn't apparent to me at all from your posts how you were able to be so confident on scum Rhand, so quickly. Your progression isn't visible from your early game posts unless I'm missing something.
This was kind of a long detour but I want to clear this up because these interactions don't feel organic to me IMO.
My read of Rhand really started in post 300, his reads list. Like I had said, I felt like he had too many townreads, especially for that early in the game. I felt like town!Rhand would have been more critical of his reads, and he didn't seem to be really at all.
I thought I had addressed 487 in a post at some point.. but looking through the posts surrounding it I guess not. It felt kind of awkward and the Vezok vote felt... bad? Like that specifically felt like a post he would not make naturally, I thought.
496 and 506 were both jokes, and I've only ever seen him really do those kind of jokes once, and it was a recent Micro where he was scum. I could try and find it after I finish this/the EoD post.
So the reads list->those three recent posts meant I wanted to question him a bit, and place pressure. I'm still not good at presuring my reads but that was a thing I was doing then. My strategy was to apply pressure and see what they do. I also elicited reads from others as part of this effort. Usually scumreads and nullreads, to connect them to the person I'm trying to gather info about.
As that last post says, I liked his response to it. I was also trying to get into his head, and thought that "you shouldn't be this confident" was a thought he would absolutely have. With those two things, I decided to persue other reads. As far as D2 goes, I kind of... was lost during that because we couldn't vote and apply pressure so I wasn't sure what to do really.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'll see what you say, but it still doesn't inspire me with confidence that you voted Rhand and cited a bunch of Rhand's posts without explaining, why, exactly, you disliked them.
You won't win any voters by saying "hi, I'm scumreading this person because I don't like these posts" and then not explain why.
I mean, I had a reason. Gemma was saying I blankvoted. And I was busy trying to catch my notes up, or else I would have expanded right then. Unfortunately I never went back to it after that.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up, because just looking at your progression there it felt REALLY weird to me that you were so gung-ho on Rhand, especially since you didn't state your reasoning besides "oh he has too many townreads".
Looking forward to seeing your response to the EoD shenanigans Yesterday.
Being real for a minute here, like in a town!killjoy world where he is reluctant to believe I am town
we just lose anyways, and it just kills my wim to even bother re-evaluating either Asta or Proph
I doubt it's ever PRoph, given fulcrum's psuh on him D7 among other reasons. Also we'd have to make weird assumptions about his role and Night Actions.
It's probably not Asta because Silver was town and Asta was here when Silver had two votes on him.
So it's gotta be you. Plus all the behavior I pointed out.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm just like trying to figure out here why the scum ever shoot Silver instead of me
Like, you can say it's wine, but wouldn't scum Last just shoot me and then easily mislynch killjoy with Silver/Asta for the win
???
thats just wine
also why would I shoot you? I mean I guess you would be harder to convince then Silver?
I am not a wolf so I wouldn't use those kinds of reads regardless
I went into the day with fulcrum being possible town for distancing due to the Axel wagon during the Rhand lynch, plus the fact that she had an ability with nonmafia in the ability and I felt that was weird to have on a scum role. There was a tiny inkling of "she gave Vaimes her role, so I should be basically confirmed to everyone, but she's not acting like it for some reason" which, why was she not pushing people to townread me if she was town and got a greencheck, right?
So my reads bounced around a lot D7. I suspected and eliminated everyone at least once (except Last, lol) but the first thing that clued me on fulcrum was this chain: 5711/5712/5718, It was where she was trying to clear last, and I realized that she never pushed for me to be town that hard even with a greencheck, why is she so confident in LAst's towniness and not mine? She continues doing this in 5769/5770/5771/5772, though I didn't notice that until nearer to the end of the day. 5810 is the point I first realize it has to be fulcrum/last, then in 5819 I unvote while I read her case because I don't like having votes down in lylo while reading big cases in case I change my mind during it. I also intended to reread her Proph case fully when I had more time. In 5841/5843 I'm clearly scumreading fulcrum. I vote her again in 5885 since her/last is the only iteration I could see. Proph then alerts me to Silver/Asta being possible so I unvoted again in 5895. My final vote on fulcrum is 5960. I had already decided that I was gonna lynch fulcrum (or last, but obviously that wasn't happening) and discussion was pretty much over, so I just decided to end it.I felt like there was nothing really to be gained by keeping the Day going.
So it wasn't completely out of nowhere, like you seem to think. It didn't just happen.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I don't RVS anymore, as either alignment, and I've stated that several times before I believe, even outside of this game
so like using that even if it's a small part, is just like ???
@Asta
Don't respond to that post with your thoughts, let me get mine out first, and then y'all can have your field day
Afterwards I will try my best to make my case on Killjoy
The first will happen tonight, and the latter, depends
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Curse Premium247: vezok
450, killjoy
481 shadow
546: Mind
917 Vaimes
1169 Vaimes
1239 Nacho
1279 Vaimes
1521 Axel
1546 KCC
1651 Axel
1793 DK
1879 No Lynch
3114 Proph
3507 Proph
3508 Rhand
3543 Proph
3622 Fulcrum
3668 Keldeo
3953 Asta
3968 KCC
3984 Keldeo
4131 Silver
4218 Asta
4230 DK
4259 Fulcrum
4307 DK
4323 Asta
4349 DK
4412 KCC
4430 DK
4527 DK
4573 Fulcrum
4721 DK
Handling Rhand
Here’s the progression on Rhand:
332: I dont know at this point of Rhand is trying to inflate the how scummy he thinks Axel's question is, is malicious, or just how he sees it
648: He’s null, because “he doesn’t have a reason to hate him yet.”
691: He’s still null, was made in response to Silver’s mini Rhand case (690). Last says he’s gonna ISO him.
747, Last is against voting Rhand because of the veracity of his scumread on Silver.
866: Still doesn’t want to lynch Rhand today.
966,988,991: 966 is actually a bunch of decently hardball questions to Rhand. After that though, he backs off immediately.
1278: Ranks Rhand as scummiest of his null reads.
2530: Per his reads list: There’s no reason to think he’s town.
3166: Rhand’s push on Vaimes is +town
3437: Rhand’s push, looking back, was somewhat forced, so he will happily vote there.
3507, 3508: Votes Rhand, after first accidently voting Proph.
There also really anything to evaluate here? This is you just rehashing my thoughts, that I really thought about, with that tiny paragraph? 332, is me trying to understand Rhand’s mindset, cause that’s what matters, that’s how you read Rhand, and if you don’t, you end up mislynching him. In 648, I had no reason to hate him? Did I ever say I did, else I don’t see why that matters? 691, I wanted to give Silver’s thought some merit, because in the end, this is a team game. 747 is broken, so I’m not gunna go find it. 866 was Tom’s post, and I looked for anything that resembled what your wrote, and didn’t find it. 966, is me trying to understand why Rhand thinks that Vaimes is so town? Me still trying to understand a slot that even though I have been reluctant to lynch, I still want to understand. #1278, picks Rhand as the scummiest of a PoE, ok? #2530, I didn’t want to lynch Rhand day 1 because I didn’t think he did anything wolfy, but at the time of #2530 he certainly hasn’t done anything townie? so whats the problem? 3166, I look at both worlds, I’m not a wolf trying to bury someone, I liked his push there? Is this just, bad cause wrong? Like I really don’t understand pushing me for calling Rhand town when I am uninformed. #3437, I re-evaluated. 3508 my vote ends up on Rhand, ok? Like we need to reach a hammer? I think my progression on Rhand was fine given how strong a of player he was. Unlike you, who just insta wolf read him off nothing, and then just backed off it for the rest of the game
moving on to my DK interactions
Also it was supposed to be 886, not 866
427, 430
This is really early, like super early, we have two big trains given how much time occurred in the day phase, which wasn’t a lot. Like his train exists? I stand by my earlier thoughts of, “Why is this a thing”
Like he has 7 posts I think at this time? And he is clearly pushing out thoughts and not just non-sense? If I think something is stupid I will most certainly voice it
453
I am trying to understand what perspective this is coming from, I can’t understand my own thoughts here. So its hard to defend whats happening here, can’t tell if I was calling DK’s thoughts or Silver’s thoughts not wolfy? I used to think dismissing trains was like obvious wolf, but I’ve stopped thinking that, that only comes from a wolf
485
Again, I am not saying he is town here, but concluding that someone is wolfy off just 7 posts is wild, and that’s coming from me who used to call out wolves in RVS
648
Null is where he belongs, and to pay mind to 737, #changemymind
1494
Don’t really have a response to this, hard to understand my mindset during every post when someone happened so long ago
1861,1869
God I don’t even know why I would think this? And assuming makes an ass out of you and me, what you think I should be doing doesn’t necessarily me that’s what my mind thinks I should be doing
2770
So why did you quote this? BG is an easy claim sure, but like he built seasonal based mechanics around it, and there was no protective role claimed other than that at the time, so like, I think my thoughts are fine
3012
I am not pushing a Vezok/Grape wolf world? What are you talking about? And I don’t really know how I concluded that Fulcrum/DK world, luck I guess?
3055
Tell me what exactly is wolfy coming from DK, like I truly believe he wasn’t wolfy till his attack on Proph, whether u want to believe that or not. And at the time it was so hard to separate Asta and DK, if DK was in fact a wolf
3114
Proph comes in attacking DK out of nowhere, and nobody was really talking about DK at the time, so like it just bothered me. I believe what I said here, Proph came off as a busser. My problem was assuming malicious intent when there really wasn’t any
#3953
You call Asta town here, there is still no super strong reason to believe he is town, its like you are using current information, to question my vote days prior, which is malicious, something that’s not even flipped. All Asta had for him was being pure at the time, he looked worse than DK, and I don’t even necessarily remember if I believed they had to be linked still
4366
It was, he didn’t even try to understand Proph, it was by definition, an OMGUS
4415, 4417
Thanks? Again this game was hard
4904,4905
Believe this or not, its wine at best, but like now we know only one wolf exists, and if I am a wolf, then proph is town, and would never fencesit on a town, and end my vote on my partner, when my other god damn partner wanted to vote a town, that’s actually gamethrowing.
Why are we assuming malicious intent, in either my progression of Rhand or DK, when there just isn’t any? DK and Rhand both played a very strong wolf game, like no doubt about that. It was hard to find them
#648
First off, there is literally no order to his at all, I don’t order my groupings lmao, this is so nitpicky
And I explained exactly why Fulcrum was there, I believed Tom was 100% town, for like the first time ever, and I sheeped his read
#2530
Had to go find a VC
Ohh wait… THIS IS LITERALLY THE DAY OF THE KING MAKER
I literally called out a wolf team of Rhand/KCC/Fulcrum, a couple posts later
Where do you get this idea that I am not pushing my thoughts?
#3055
Why exactly is this a wolfy thought for me? It’s literally not? How many wolves do you see CC a god damn town. Seriously tell me
None of your associations say why I am a wolf, but I will put the rest of my thoughts in another post
Voting Record
He doesn’t vote during RVS. He’s here, and doing things, but doesn’t vote. This isn’t always a tell, but it’s worth noting I feel, especially with how opinionated Last typically is. The first time he actually voted for scum (DK) was in 1793, but there’s no real progression showing me that it’s suspicion that came on naturally, and it’s not really substantiated.There’s also a bit just before we lynch DK (around 4218ish) where he keeps voting DK, then jumps to a townie (and fulcrum). and then back to dk. I believe this was pushing away from dk. I believe that fulcrum wasn’t really under any pressure right then, so those votes were probably safe. I believe it might also be noteable that in 3507, he votes Proph accidently, when he meant to vote Rhand (3508).
I don’t really know why I voted DK over Axel there, actually a few pages back I just randomly voted Axel as well, so I cant really explain that progression honestly
Again with the whole, “voting a townie argument”? How exactly was this pushing away from DK? Did you actually look at my progression in between all that, or did you just use the votes to create a narrative? Like its not about the votes, but the whys, and sure, you can argue both my above Axel, and DK vote were bad, because I didn’t say anything, IDK why I did that
What exactly does 3507 even say? You think that was some kind of goofy distance? You gotta tell me what you think, else I can’t provide a counter argument
Late Mindreaver Vote
546, 610,611, 630: Votes Mindreaver for calling saying last’s entrance was ‘townier than it’s been in a while’ or something of that nature and Last kinda latches onto that. I believe it’s noteable that Mind hasn’t had that opinion for about 500 posts, so this vote is really weak on a townie. I also noted in my VCA post that this vote is partially a sheep on Tom.
Your whole VCA analysis is just bad, but like from your PoV you have to push it I think? Wolves don’t have to be anywhere, clusters of town and wolves can happen, all town wagons can happen. You can’t just say look at Wisp, “He voted all these towns, he is such a baddie”. This is just your last attempt to put a nail in the coffin, by creating reasons for why I have to be scum, because you can’t talk about why I am actually a wolf. Being wrong != being a wolf.
I fence sat on a lot of people, not just my buddies in a wolf!me world, but I guess that doesn’t help your narrative, does it?
So I will end this with what I’ve said over and over. Why am I a wolf?
@Asta
@Proph
Enjoy
the first sentence was just me being petty
Silver wants to end the day early, thats not townie
and if I think someone is wolfy, I am not just going to assume randomly that they are voting their partner, but I've had a lot of emotional explosions this game, that I regret, that affected how I read people, and pushed things
You have to see how bad that looks.
And reasons matter for sure. But like. Take that read on Silver. You pushed against Rhand because silver was being scummy. Because someone voting then is scummy is not a good reason to town read someone.
And you didn't readdress the wagons.
I feel like you're going out of your way to scum read me here.
I proactively vote and reactively vote, yes, the latter isn't necessarily wolfy anyways
A lot of my votes are bad, but I've explained my thoughts at all points, and yes I voted wolves in a spots when there was not many says out, does that mean I am distancing, no
Stop saying the last sentence, it's like you are using it as some new justification for why I can be a wolf, we all know today is going to end up on either me or you, so it doesn't matter
The whole silver/Rhand reaction was me being petty, nothing more nothing less
There isn't a malicious bone in their body, and the way they unvoted Fulcrum yesterday, felt like real paranoia
in terms of Proph, people may think this is silly, but the way he posted after almost every lynch he was around with, "I hope this is a hit", just feels so uninformed. He also has clearly been trying to solve, and he is the very reason why I voted DK and Fulcrum. Also all game I got this vibe that he was just playing his own game, and not working with a team, or pushing this narrative.
you on the other hand, spent most the latter game on me being a wolf, while everyone else was trying to figure this game out, hiding behind a cop check of a dead wolf now
I am not just PoEing you, I have talked about reasons, as to why you could go either way
but like I'd be lying if I didn't say I believed everyone else just looked better
Idk when I'll get the chance to build a case on you, but like the day doesnt end till the 23rd, so
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Curse PremiumAlso nothign you've said really disproves any of my points. Of course you have reasons for your votes. Scum would have reasons for their votes, out of a need to justify them.
Even if you were to just vote at random, you'd hit scum 25% of the time. You're not though, your votes are all there for a reason, I'm just saying the motive and intent behind them is different from what you say.
I'm also gonna make some time right now to make a point I had intended to make in my case, but it got convoluted, so I dumped it with intent to go back. I'm gonna make it now I think.
1869: Suggests we either find a real CFD or we lynch one of Axel or DK.
1883: Does the same with Axel and Fulcrum, actually. Didn't see this originally.
1885,1887: Seems to be talking himself out of fulcrum being likely scum.
1899: Talks himself INTO Axel.
Then Day ends, and a new day begins... and there's no mention of this trichotomy or Axel or DK or anything. He questions fulcrum a bit about her role and the correlations between his and her role, she gives an ok answer, and it's not persued past this point.
Asta + DK Probably Both Scum, So Lets Lynch Asta First
3055: First mention of the link between Asta and DK. Waffles a bit on both Asta and DK, but has less town reasons for Asta.
3098: If DK is a wolf and not BG, Asta is always a wolf. Also doubts DK a bit.
3563: Still linking DK and Asta here, still exploring there. Also of note here (has nothing to do with this point I'm making) is that he thinks that DK and Asta could be scum together but that being true would be "as dangerous as a mason claim". But he thinks that fulcrum/me are buddies because she claimed a green check on me.
3735: Doubting Asta because he confirmed DK's shot without knowing that DK is scum yet.
3953: Votes Asta over DK while still thinking DK is a wolf.
I feel like this adds to Last's consistantly irregular voting pattern that keeps falling away from the scum. He could have seriously dug into scum several times but he keeps ending up on the Town side of the line when deciding who to push/vote seriously.
But that's all your arguement is, is that I was wrong a lot
Everything I said at each point I believed, but I tend to forget a lot of the things I said, which sucks
How the hell are u shading me for linking DK and Asta, how was I suppose to know of the existence of a messenger
Wolves don't lie if they can't back it up, that's why I had them connected
I'll respond to the rest
@Proph
Can you chime in so that I'm not stressing over Killjoy who seems to never take a day off, and is decimating me right now
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Curse PremiumSorry about the delay in this; thought I had the day to stress over this game but had HW to do instead. Should be good now, however.
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Curse PremiumWhat happened at the tail end of Yesterday continues to bother me.
again I will state how none of this really makes me wolfy?
like the top trains at that time in day 1, were both Axel and DK? and I was adamantly against no lynching, so its like we nut up or shut up on either of those two, or cfd?
1883, is me doubting two watchers being town? and 1885 was me realizing I read Fulcrum's claim wrong?
I wasnt talking my self out of Fulcrum being scum there? but again this still comes down to, "I don't believe many wolves have the balls to CC a town", why are we assuming this is even malicious? you are actually just throwing out all the points where I like fulcrum or any of the other wolves, and just saying that makes me a wolf with them?
1889 is me coming to a conclusion based on the current top trains and all the mechanical information? it's not distinctly me saying I will bull rush Axel with my vote? and IDK why I even said watchers are more likely to be a wolf, cause that's not really true. Again both ccing and then retracting was indeed strange, and hard to evaluate
Like again this is just you picking at all my interactions with wolves
you still have not told me why I am a wolf here
this is why I hate mechanic based games
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Curse PremiumI respect his way of looking at partner interactions between Rhand and dkings, but the fact ultimately remains is that he's only looking at half of the context here - in that KJ is only looking at how Last treats Rhand, rather than also looking at how Rhand treats Last.
I guess this is a good springboard for me to start my reread (looking at Rhand's interactions with Killjoy and Last) so here goes:
These are the first words Rhand says about Last:
Think there are multiple ways to interpret this post but I do think this particular Rhand interaction isn't great for Last, especially if we compare Rhand's Last read to KJ.
Rhand's KJ read makes me think that he knows that KJ is town, while Rhand goes into a lot more depth onto his Last read. I think that it's more likely for him to overexplain his read on Last like this if they are buddies together.
This is only one data point out of the many I'm sure I'll be looking over in this post, but I do think that this particular interaction does look good for KJ and not great for Last.
This is in response to Nacho asking Rhand about Rhand's read on Last. Throughout of most of early Day 1, Rhand continues to defend Last and think Last is town. This doesn't mean a whole lot on its own because I think Last was in a position where Rhand would townread him regardless of alignment, but it's important to note.
(this is in response to tom saying that Last is town).
In the meantime Killjoy is asking softball questions to Rhand, such as:
To the last one, Rhand responds like this:
Gonna need to keep rereading Rhand in order to see what KJ/Rhand make of this, but I think this can go both ways based solely on this interaction. Mafia Rhand and mafia KJ could be trying to distance a little bit based off of these comments, while mafia Rhand could be exasperated by town KJ's tunneling. I am aware this is fencesitting but I'll get off the fence most likely after I keep rereading.
It is worth noting that Rhand dipped KJ in his "reads" a little later on, right here:
Which.. I think is an act that he would make more likely if KJ was town? Unsure. Like there is some mafia motivation to distance even further, but I think Killjoy was in a very good position for most of this Day 1 and I feel like mafia Rhand would want to keep him up there and townread him rather than waste his thread time fighting with his buddy that was widely townread at that point.
Rhand continues to interact with Last in only the most cursory manner, only responding to questions Last asks.
Here's Rhand's KJ vote. Now here lies the question: Was KJ's scumread of Rhand legit? Feels like if we answer this question we get the game. If it isn't legit then we lynch KJ and he flips mafia. If it IS legit, then it's a valuable piece of evidence we can use to clear KJ and investigate possibilities of scum!Last playing game-of-his-life here.
So my issue here is that KJ's progression on Rhand doesn't feel particularly.. organic? Looking at KJ's early posts his progression on Rhand is something like this:
This jump in conviction and the fact that KJ doesn't really arrive to the scum!Rhand read organically is setting off some alarm bells for me. KJ doesn't talk about /what/ posts he doesn't like of Rhand's, his only point he's tried to make so far in favor of mafia Rhand is that he had "too many townreads". This doesn't read at all genuine to me (and it smacks of inside information).
Killjoy - I don't know if you recall, but why exactly were you scumreading Rhand so strongly at the beginning of the game here? It isn't apparent to me at all from your posts how you were able to be so confident on scum Rhand, so quickly. Your progression isn't visible from your early game posts unless I'm missing something.
This was kind of a long detour but I want to clear this up because these interactions don't feel organic to me IMO.
Back to looking at Rhand interactions:
Rhand votes KJ here. Rhand and KJ have this little slapfight/argument on page 21 here.
Eeeeeeehhhh yeah.
Again, this may be confirmation bias, but I can pretty easily see a world where scum KJ and scum Rhand have this little slapfight in order to distance from each other, and then they both go back to townreading each other/not fighting like nothing happened. It makes more sense too with how KJ latched onto Rhand - that scumread did not feel natural.
Yeah whole Rhand/KJ slapfight kind of just... ended randomly lol
Don't think that Rhand just calls for his buddy to die like this?
So yeah, this post is kind of all over the place, but tldr: Last and Rhand don't have stellar interactions, but I find Killjoy's and Rhand's mutual suspicion of each other then both of them immediately walking them back to be very unnatural and suspicious, especially since I think that KJ's progression on Rhand was nearly nonexistent. Want KJ to address my suspicions along with the EoD stuff from Yesterday.
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Curse PremiumAgain maybe it's just confirmation bias speaking but stuff just doesn't add up.
Clearly all the wolves were pocketing me this game
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Curse PremiumI'll see what you say, but it still doesn't inspire me with confidence that you voted Rhand and cited a bunch of Rhand's posts without explaining, why, exactly, you disliked them.
You won't win any voters by saying "hi, I'm scumreading this person because I don't like these posts" and then not explain why.
I thought I had addressed 487 in a post at some point.. but looking through the posts surrounding it I guess not. It felt kind of awkward and the Vezok vote felt... bad? Like that specifically felt like a post he would not make naturally, I thought.
496 and 506 were both jokes, and I've only ever seen him really do those kind of jokes once, and it was a recent Micro where he was scum. I could try and find it after I finish this/the EoD post.
So the reads list->those three recent posts meant I wanted to question him a bit, and place pressure. I'm still not good at presuring my reads but that was a thing I was doing then. My strategy was to apply pressure and see what they do. I also elicited reads from others as part of this effort. Usually scumreads and nullreads, to connect them to the person I'm trying to gather info about.
As that last post says, I liked his response to it. I was also trying to get into his head, and thought that "you shouldn't be this confident" was a thought he would absolutely have. With those two things, I decided to persue other reads. As far as D2 goes, I kind of... was lost during that because we couldn't vote and apply pressure so I wasn't sure what to do really.
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Curse PremiumLooking forward to seeing your response to the EoD shenanigans Yesterday.
but you shaded me for not pushing my reads? on that exact same day
we just lose anyways, and it just kills my wim to even bother re-evaluating either Asta or Proph
It's probably not Asta because Silver was town and Asta was here when Silver had two votes on him.
So it's gotta be you. Plus all the behavior I pointed out.
@Proph: I'm almost done with the D7 thing.
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Curse PremiumStill on like, 75% KJ 25% Last or something
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Curse PremiumLike, you can say it's wine, but wouldn't scum Last just shoot me and then easily mislynch killjoy with Silver/Asta for the win
???
also why would I shoot you? I mean I guess you would be harder to convince then Silver?
I am not a wolf so I wouldn't use those kinds of reads regardless
I went into the day with fulcrum being possible town for distancing due to the Axel wagon during the Rhand lynch, plus the fact that she had an ability with nonmafia in the ability and I felt that was weird to have on a scum role. There was a tiny inkling of "she gave Vaimes her role, so I should be basically confirmed to everyone, but she's not acting like it for some reason" which, why was she not pushing people to townread me if she was town and got a greencheck, right?
So my reads bounced around a lot D7. I suspected and eliminated everyone at least once (except Last, lol) but the first thing that clued me on fulcrum was this chain: 5711/5712/5718, It was where she was trying to clear last, and I realized that she never pushed for me to be town that hard even with a greencheck, why is she so confident in LAst's towniness and not mine? She continues doing this in 5769/5770/5771/5772, though I didn't notice that until nearer to the end of the day. 5810 is the point I first realize it has to be fulcrum/last, then in 5819 I unvote while I read her case because I don't like having votes down in lylo while reading big cases in case I change my mind during it. I also intended to reread her Proph case fully when I had more time. In 5841/5843 I'm clearly scumreading fulcrum. I vote her again in 5885 since her/last is the only iteration I could see. Proph then alerts me to Silver/Asta being possible so I unvoted again in 5895. My final vote on fulcrum is 5960. I had already decided that I was gonna lynch fulcrum (or last, but obviously that wasn't happening) and discussion was pretty much over, so I just decided to end it.I felt like there was nothing really to be gained by keeping the Day going.
So it wasn't completely out of nowhere, like you seem to think. It didn't just happen.