Reason I said he might be a wolf if you're town is because that post reads a lot like a tom partner trying to distance from him and also put the lens on you without being responsible for the lunch
I guess it also makes some sense the other way around (a you partner trying to distance from you without getting you lunched while pushing the other side of me/tom) but the first one makes more sense I think
Probably not biased because I think tom is a wolf though
But yeah just thought it was weird that if you thought the case against me was a slam dunk you'd just gloss over someone agreeing with me
Tom: It uses passive language, doesn't actively engage the people you're refencing, and doesn't really engage, well, anyone. It's also not taking
credit" for the opinion. Like "I think there should be votes on kj" is active. "Hey, Silver/KK/whoever, why are you not voting for kj?"
Just sitting back and pondering why there are no votes without trying to make some.
Emiko: Scum in the people throwing suspicion at me. Or do you think they're all town? Just what do you think of that?
KCC: Can you help me see where tom believes his case, and is not just pushing behind a facade of fervor? I kinda think he's just trying to sound confident, and is using that to try to push his case through.
If tom is scum, I may have found a secret way to read him. If true, I'm never, ever gonna tell him what it is.
I'm not a huge fan of Vezok's 440, but at the same time he's voting for someone I think is scummy. which is fine. I guess I don't like the way he's doing it. Also "shadow can wait" just sounds... fake?
Vez Explain those numbers about shadow/KK alignment? Why do you think they're not aligned? Why is town/town more likely than scum/scum?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Caught up bit skimmed parts of tom vs silver.
If there is scum in tom/silver, it’s tom. Scum!silver wouldn’t draw all that attention to himself and would have dropped it when there was no support coming, while scum!tom has the confidence to push a mislynch like this and get away with it afterwards.
That said, I think it’s more likely KK is scum and tom and silver both town.
The way he picked a side at a moment where multiple people were saying that we should move our focus elsewhere makes a lot of sense from a scum standpoint that wants to continue this fight.
Megs has a post somewhere that almost reads like a confession. Will look it up when not on the phone.
My current world is KK/Megs/Vaimes?
The Vaimes read is still flimsy though.
@tom: where did KJ show he likes your fight?
@silver It has none of the features I attribute to scum Rhand, and some of the things town Rhand tends to do. So more town than not.
If he can maintain it then he's probably town. It should start to really see after a few more posts like this one.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KCC: Can you help me see where tom believes his case, and is not just pushing behind a facade of fervor? I kinda think he's just trying to sound confident, and is using that to try to push his case through.
If you're town, I don't want to discourage this, but, can you explain at all how/why, because this feels sudden
Probably partially my tunneling was a tiredness thing. Last night I was tired and obviously a little silly/dumb overconfident as you can see in 416.
This morning I woke up and after a while decided it was too early and I had to go back to bed for an hour, but not before reading and getting over-emotional and posting 439.
Then I woke up, saw silver’s response, and found it reasonable. And I was like, “Oh yeah, I’m not 100% sure he’s scum and I’m really not ever supposed to be 100% certain before confirmation.”
I realized this over the course of writing my response in 447, and added the first line about my tunneling in the middle of typing it up because I didn’t trust myself to portray the slow revelation it was in the middle of the writing without it “sounding manufactured.”
Idk how well that answers your why question, but that’s my thought process at least.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
The opening show is now over. The first performers are now entering the stage. Luckily for all of you, there is going to be a lot performances coming up before any of you will have to step on the stage.
He probably got his role PM and thought it would be fun to mislunch me
And when he saw me do "thing he thinks is objectively scummy" he decided to go for it
Obviously it would be good for him to get rid of me either way but I don't think the decision to mislunch me vs night kill came from a strictly +ev place if that makes sense
I can't believe this as a real thought you had.
It's a really bizarre angle to take on somebody voting/casing you.
idk man that still sounds pretty fake to me. how often have you seen me present a scumread that wasnt narrative-based?
Ftr the narrative was a thought exercise and what made me vote you was going back to that initial post i called "not the towny version but not the scummy version either" and changing my mind that it was the scum version and now ive already moved on to this reaction to my vote just being made up omgus because i called out <like 2/3s of the scumteam>
I write narrative reads all the time dude, it isn't about [the fact that there was a narrative]
The narrative didn't feel natural and I don't think those are real thoughts you had about me
It's not omgus, I don't think you suck I just think you're a wolf
Could be wrong, yeah, but don't think I am
This feels like classic scum ignoring something difficult to argue against (most of tom's FTR) while attacking the part of the case they think is weak. Appearing strong while glossing over an important part of the argument.
I ***** posted with Vaimes some which you apparently took as TMI that he's town because you... thought I was strongly townreading him without trying to solve him
you "cased" me and concluded I was a wolf
I called you out because I was never strongly townreading Vaimes and your "case" felt manufactured to fit the read you wanted
And now I'm a wolf because I thought your case was manufactured and I voted you for it
now either
(1) you're a villager and you... got it wrong then doubled down on it for some reason
Or (2) you're a wolf and I'm right
gonna go with (2), evidence to the contrary
So tom is scum because towntom wouldn't be wrong and would certainly realize he's wrong and would never double down because he would know he's wrong.
I'm feeling pretty comfortable with tom's case here.
vote Silvercrys3467
hm.
Ok I originally quoted this post and I was going to be like "yeah I like this KK post. good catch on the "ignoring something difficult to argue against" bit"
Now i'm noticing the silver vote and I actually don't like it here.
So, cool.
Tom's case was built on things that are objectively false, and he twisted them into a narrative to build his case
I never tried to get Vaimes to attack Emiko, I specifically said Emiko wasn't wolfy
He never "called me out", he said it was a "lack of town points" and he supposedly interpreted that as something I would care about correcting and that would send me scrambling to justify a read I never even had
I'm done talking about this. He's either spectacularly wrong or a wolf.
IDK man, this narrative you're ascribing to Tom really looks like something you made up yourself:
Ok I figured out the problem I have with this post: it's that despite not actually scumreading Emiko, you make the point that 'TWTBAW is sometimes jsut a wolf'. I'm having trouble following that train of thought.
I agree that sometimes wolfy folks are just really really wolfy, but if you're not scumreading Emiko... why make the point that really wolfy people can just be wolves? You don't think Emiko is a wolf, so saying that feels out of place. Talk me throgh it.
I'm generally against the idea of people being "too wolfy" to be a wolf; wolves can use it to hide behind as a sort of "refuge in audacity". I simply don't think the mindset Emiko was posting from was all that wolfy to begin with. The action itself, sure, but not the mindset, and I generally hold that to be more important than the action in a vacuum.
Hi Silver. Two questions here: Do you think Vaimes kind of... countering your townread of him is alignment indicative of him? And why are you townreading me? I don't recall you saying. I'm pretty sure I made 4 posts as of now and three of them were voting Rhand in RVS for indiscernable reasons and a couple more posts not answering questions about it.
Your posts to Emiko (43 & 45) read solve-y and I think as a wolf you're more likely to appease there than counterattack with "why do you think I did it?"
As far as Vaimes, like, kind of? It's not really something I think he wouldn't do as a wolf, just that the way he went/is going about it feels more villagery than not I guess. We've mostly just been *****posting, don't really think that's AI for him (maybe for me, but the one who would know that best either doesn't recognize that or is a wolf). I'm not really trying to get a hard read on him yet because I don't think I need to; if he's wolf!Vaimes he's posting a lot and he'll lead me to his partners later (or lead me to him from his partners). I'm comfortable not lunching him right now.
Maybe I need some kind of key for my T/S list, heh.
Me/dead town
strong town
town
lean town
neutral
lean wolf
wolf
strong/dead wolf
I was sorting you/tom/emiko/Vaimes within the "lean town" tier.
True enough, KCC, I forgot you were already voting Vaimes.
I kind of think he's a villager, though. Could you walk me through the read like I've never played Mafia before? Or is it literally just, you think he was trying to avoid RVS?
@silvercrys3467 @Vaimes what do you think of the other person's alignment ?
I still have a slight town read on him because I don't think he'd jump into the game and poke the bear.
I did kind of think his poking was bait though.
and another one thats almost the same reason but makes it me specific. Yeah thatll look towny
I made this whole post and im not sure whether its a case or just fanfic of silvers internal dialogue if he is scum that doesnt prove anything.
Its technically believable that town silver thinks of himself as a bear and thinks scumvaimes would be scared of poking him. I dont personally believe that to be the case but thats not really relevant. But if silver believes it and townreads vaimes for it and is immediately more interested in...
Uh
Disagree with vaimes premise but still encourage him to go after emiko instead of him
Without having any questions for vaimes because hes town
...
vote silver
That's a pretty good fanfic, but you're over-representing my townread on Vaimes a little bit there, don't you think?
And I dunno, I guess I'm confused as to why you think I was encouraging Vaimes to go after Emiko when I have both of them as town leans and I don't really think I was encouraging either of them to attack the other?
I wasn't saying I think scum!Vaimes would be afraid of poking me, just that I think he knows me well enough to know that I get irritable when people wolf read me for no reason and I thought he was trying to elicit an emotional reaction out of me, which I town read him for, but I also didn't want to give him the satisfaction (partly because it's a part of my game I'm trying and as yet failing to excise entirely) so I *****posted about it, and I'm pretty confident that if he is a wolf I'll get him later and he's going to either lead me to his partners or vice-versa with how much he's posting.
Ordinarily I'd town read you for this because you have a pretty bad track record faking scum reads on me so you just haven't bothered the last few times you wolfed against me but this reads more like you've decided to try it again than something I think you actually believe. This doesn't read like town!tom paranoia of my "eventually good scum game", more like wolf!tom making up reasons to vote me.
Vote: tom
Silvercrys
Killjoy / Emiko
Vaimes
KK / Vezok
Cantrip / Rhand / shadow / KCC
megiddo
tom
list is roughly sorted within tiers
Killjoy's #43 and #45 are enough to put him above Vaimes. Emiko's mindset just reads like a new town player from a different meta.
Vaimes I've discussed at length at this point.
KK / Vezok are slightly above null, I don't think either of them has really done anything AI but their posting/questions/responses feel townie overall.
Cantrip / Rhand / shadow / KCC are about true null.
megs feels off, do not like the vaimes smearing/shading without a vote.
tom has already decided how he's going to read me and is spinning a narrative to fit his read rather than finding the read that matches his perception of the game.
I went back to find this and it just feels like a HUGE overreaction to a single vote.
I don't get why you would be energetic about the whole thing. Now, yes, after this point it makes sense that you'd get into it, but here??
your self-aware comments about "poking the bear" really raise my hackles too.
<meg: this post is really long so i clipped it, but i'm responding to a couple of things within it>
1) why would you tie me/vez together there? What makes us buddies?
2) "sure" was a bit strong but usually i get people voting me for playing this way. You can see i've gathered a reasonable number of votes.
I liked your vote because it didn't feel lazy. Though I will now ask: have you since read up on ZE or done any other meta digging on me?
I could maybe see that you thought it was weird that I gave Vaimes a town read after you mentioned I wasn't trying to solve him but like
it was never a strongly stated read and I said in response to you that I wasn't even trying to read him yet, which you blew off as "bravado" or whatever but I don't see why you think, as a wolf, I would say that and then immediately try to invent reasons for townreading him when I just said I didn't need to
and the rest is pure fanfiction, particularly the part where you believe this is a wolf reaction to your vote
Like, you have played with me before, right? This isn't a different tomsloger from the one who was in Barebones or one of the other games where I voted someone back for voting me with a bad case? Kpaca in Horsemen?
Anyway this is going nowhere and I'm ready to move on when everyone else is
megiddo interactions are bad . there is not much else to see .
tomsloger is a mix of good and bad .
koolkoal has a lot of wolf posts and interactions .
kittycake appears wolf for votes and interactions .
This is a good observation on KCC, and I like the vote. I'm personally not sure on KCC's alignment, but this case/progression feels pure.
(also, i agree on 345 lol. that's the one I blanked out above. Meanwhile, i'm making a post that's going to be even worse...)
Which interactions of mine are bad? And why are they bad?
What about KK? Can you substantiate that read?
Also curious where the silver townread comes from.
Vez, you thought KK was scum, you don't like KK's response to Shadow's vote, but you're voting shadow because his vote is "egregious"? How is it egregious? It's not a read I necessarily agree with, but I can believe it's really a read Shadow makes.
I mean, I’m openly admitting to poor play here, so yeah. What you suggest does sound much smarter than what I did.
I feel like, as scum, I could probably have gotten away without mentioning KJ and coasting anyway?
I distinctly remember Megs making me want to tear my hair out when trying to read him as either alignment, so I’m leaving him null until he does something that doesn’t feel like he’s clutching his cards close to his chest or until I can reread him specifically, perhaps when I can look at interactions with someone confirmed.
Emiko seems very surface level in his/her reads. For example, putting KCC and I as top scumspects with no mention of our interactions earlier. I think likely town and extremely likely to mess up if scum anyway.
i'm pretty easy to read I think, mostly because I have historically been godawful as scum...
I suppose now is where i can ask this question...
Why are you treating emiko like a newb despite claimed experience?
I forgot the bridge thought in my Emiko read:
Emiko’s reads lead me to believe he/she is genuinely a newer player, therefore extremely likely to mess up as scum.
I forgot I quoted this too.
But uh, why do you think emiko is new? I thought the KCC thing was pretty astute. also I feel like she is playing with a lot of confidence.
Caught up bit skimmed parts of tom vs silver.
If there is scum in tom/silver, it’s tom. Scum!silver wouldn’t draw all that attention to himself and would have dropped it when there was no support coming, while scum!tom has the confidence to push a mislynch like this and get away with it afterwards.
That said, I think it’s more likely KK is scum and tom and silver both town.
The way he picked a side at a moment where multiple people were saying that we should move our focus elsewhere makes a lot of sense from a scum standpoint that wants to continue this fight.
Megs has a post somewhere that almost reads like a confession. Will look it up when not on the phone.
My current world is KK/Megs/Vaimes?
The Vaimes read is still flimsy though.
@tom: where did KJ show he likes your fight?
Why would scum want to continue the fight? Or, more realistically, what's preventing KK from being town who became convinced that the argument wasn't town on town and decided to weigh in with that?
This is a weird argument for you to make.
Silver didnt draw attention to himself, i drew attention to him
He did try to drop it when he got no support
And also
Weak
^ /barn with regard to dropping
tho silver could have easily just ignored your case. he definitely drew the attention with his response to your initial post.
I'm not sure what to make of KK right now + his stuff from the last night.
will do some research; it sounded ok but, weird tone today?
coming out of this with silver / rhand scum i think. Rhand popin posts not inspiring and don't make a ton of sense. hopefully after he is off of v/la he can post more. Silver, see above.
I'm not super confident on things rn. the game has a lot of experienced players who are good at playing slightly detached, I think, which makes it hard for me to get good d1 reads.
ewp i see there's a votecount. unvote, vote silver
game: after this afternoon I am going to be v/la until wednesday. Going to a wedding. Will try and post but no promises. I'm around the rest of the day though.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Him thinking I'm a wolf with Rhand is pretty much where I expected KK to go and why I raised my eyebrows at him again
But at the same time it's kind of a weird look on Megs, maybe it's just because megs hasn't said ~anything yet other than "team tom! yay!" and he popped in after momentum on me disintegrated with a bunch of stuff other people already said basicallly
Him thinking I'm a wolf with Rhand is pretty much where I expected KK to go and why I raised my eyebrows at him again
But at the same time it's kind of a weird look on Megs, maybe it's just because megs hasn't said ~anything yet other than "team tom! yay!" and he popped in after momentum on me disintegrated with a bunch of stuff other people already said basicallly
i'm right here bro
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Him thinking I'm a wolf with Rhand is pretty much where I expected KK to go and why I raised my eyebrows at him again
But at the same time it's kind of a weird look on Megs, maybe it's just because megs hasn't said ~anything yet other than "team tom! yay!" and he popped in after momentum on me disintegrated with a bunch of stuff other people already said basicallly
i'm right here bro
hi, yes, you are
Didn't have anything I wanted to address you with specifically so I didn't
Probably partially my tunneling was a tiredness thing. Last night I was tired and obviously a little silly/dumb overconfident as you can see in 416.
This morning I woke up and after a while decided it was too early and I had to go back to bed for an hour, but not before reading and getting over-emotional and posting 439.
Then I woke up, saw silver’s response, and found it reasonable. And I was like, “Oh yeah, I’m not 100% sure he’s scum and I’m really not ever supposed to be 100% certain before confirmation.”
I realized this over the course of writing my response in 447, and added the first line about my tunneling in the middle of typing it up because I didn’t trust myself to portray the slow revelation it was in the middle of the writing without it “sounding manufactured.”
Idk how well that answers your why question, but that’s my thought process at least.
I had the thought that you might be tunneling. My only issue here is that I had specifically asked you a question early on to see if I could get you to step back and reevaluate like this, but your response was that this was a slow progression you had thought through and were happy with
@meg: I don’t think Emiko is lying, I don’t think he/she is brand new, but probably only has a few games under their belt.
Maybe it’s just the language barrier, but I think Emiko’s reads are coming from simple things and the picture isn’t being fully put together in places.
@sulver: I don’t know about a scumbuddy defending you by mimicking your reads exactly, yet not voting me. Like, if his purpose was to defend you I’d think more pressure would be the default way to go. (also, defend you from what? You clearly don’t need defending from me at the moment, nor did you then ).
However, I also originally read it and went, “yeah yeah, another person not listening to me about silver and just brainlessly attacking me.” You know, before my nap.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
@KCC Maybe I’m not understanding you, but I said I had a slow realization over the time of writing one post. So, maybe not slow in terms of a mafia Day.
What question are you referring to?
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I guess he did say Megs "confessed" maybe he left his vote on purpose?
also I have no clue why you keep like, expecting me specifically to ask you questions there are ten other players in the game
Could, I suppose, see you expecting me to grill you over some kind of inconsistency if I was town with a real scum read and thinking I'm a wolf for not doing that but like
I don't have a magic "gotcha" on you and I don't even think the case is that strong, there isn't anything I think you "need to answer for" just your positioning and behavior feels sketchy
Would lunch tom over you 10 times out of 10 if I could get the votes, but seems like everyone who thinks I'm town thinks he's town too so
Which is fine but I kind of don't think you're wolves together so
Why not?
They're both voting me even though the thread is pretty cold on me right now
Kind of think wolf!Megiddo doesn't even bother trying to push me further when pushing KK is both way easier and likelier to save him, on further reflection, though I guess if they're w/w it makes a bit more sense
But just in general if they're w/w they're putting all their eggs into the basket of getting me mislunched to save themselves when that doesn't seem likely to happen with the amount of resistance to wagoning me
Maybe I look like an easier target than e.g. Killjoy or Rhand I guess
But really it kind of feels like the Megs wagon was a response to mine and then KK when mine lost some momentum and both of them piling on me isn't the, like, wolf reaction I'd expect which is why the wagons feel weird
If they're both wolves they ~should be looking for another wagon right now not trying to jumpstart a dead one
Ehhhh
unvote
Think I talked myself out of Megs but I'm not quite talked into Rhand or KK yet
@KCC Maybe I’m not understanding you, but I said I had a slow realization over the time of writing one post. So, maybe not slow in terms of a mafia Day.
i started out thinking silver was wrong and it was t v. t, but the posts I mentioned nagged at me, and I moved into the “I think this is malicious” camp.
I’m a little more confident that tom’s less than 75% he gave. I’d say 80
The whole point here was to see how carefully you had thought about this.
Oh, I’m not sure how much I was already tunneling there, but I was still aware of the possibility and trying not to. I didn’t get really bad until last night when silver’s response to me pushed me into the deep end.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Oh, I’m not sure how much I was already tunneling there, but I was still aware of the possibility and trying not to. I didn’t get really bad until last night when silver’s response to me pushed me into the deep end.
80% sure was before tunneling? That's still worth pushing, isn't it? On the other hand, if you were already down the tunnel here, why didn't you reconsider when I specifically asked you to? You made it sound like you did think it over carefully and were happy with it
I'm having a little trouble seeing that response to that type of question, followed by backing off later with a claim of tunneling.
because I have one: killjoy did a thing I suggested that he do when he was asking about how to avoid being mislynched as town. I think on balance that's leantown (hence my earlier contextless post to this effect). I'm not sure if killjoy goes two levels deep to do that as scum pretending to be town trying to up his game, which only works if specific people that were in a different game happen to be in this one and notice AND think it means anything. I specifically and probably the only one who cares enough to notice. this seems like a lot of effort vs. just trying to incorporate a suggestion he got into his towngame.
@kk: what did you like about my big post?
@silver: the reason I said what I did is that you keep talking about things but not really engaging with them. I was expecting you to have questions or something vs just commenting about my post. It just consistently feels like you're not really in the game, like you're watching it happen and commentating on it rather than playing. and I do not like how that looks. your hyper-self aware meta play is strange artifice that feels like a scum strategy rather than an authentic approach to the game.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
@silver: the reason I said what I did is that you keep talking about things but not really engaging with them. I was expecting you to have questions or something vs just commenting about my post. It just consistently feels like you're not really in the game, like you're watching it happen and commentating on it rather than playing. and I do not like how that looks. your hyper-self aware meta play is strange artifice that feels like a scum strategy rather than an authentic approach to the game.
you may or may not have guessed this but, I get that a lot
My tone is fake/wooden/artifical, I'm too self aware, over explainy, reads/reactions feel manufactured (which, I think is more of a tone thing than anything)
Just like, yeah, I let day 1 happen to me, ask some questions but try not to get too bogged down
It's the weakest part of my game but I don't even really think I want to fix it, hasn't gotten me mislunched yet and gives me good interactions to work with D2+ since I can see who was trying to solve the enigma and who was trying to lunch it just for being different / easy to push
Like did you see the wagon analysis I already did on myself? *****'s pure gold when you know my alignment, and when I can check my own wagon plus the lunch wagon plus see how the game pivoted around the night kill, like
I do get strong reads sometimes (hill house, tom here) and try to chase them, but usually no one listens anyway and on balance Day 1 is basically a random lunch, game doesn't really start for me until D2 when we have some flips and possibly night action info
Usual D1 strategy is to collect a few townreads I think I can trust, then lunch [not them] and see who pushed where and how after the lunch+N1 kill.
Doing not so good on that front this game, lot of y'all are very wolfy, but I'm pretty okay not lunching Vaimes/KCC and Emiko is pretty townie. Maybe shadow belongs here too, definitely wouldn't vote him toDay.
Also tom knows all of this because we've played a bunch of games together and he's probably tired of reading my self meta by now, it's like, one of the reasons I think he's a wolf
@cantrip: If I had my Neighborizer ability here, I'd definitely take the flip into account, but if I had to pick now, I might do you and vaimes again for similar reasons. Or if I didn't think either of us was a high NK target by day's end, I might do me and Tom, since I'm actually townReading him here, and now that I'm more familiar, he seems the most likely to cause trouble with me.
@kj re: Tom's sincerity: In modern, Tom's posts were a constant static grey to me right up until a couple posts at the end of my last Day, where it started to slip. -The way people talked about him, I assumed it was just a playstyle thing (I've played with players like that) and wrote it off. But he just feels different here. He feels actively townie, which I didn't get once from him in modern. Based on that, I think scumTom might be great at masking overt scumminess but not great at projecting townieness, which if I'm right here, he actually can do as town
@megs: I liked your big post because you're my friend in rl and I enjoy seeing you
Actually, I feel like you hadn't opened up this game yet before that post, trying to be the man in the shadows. I got gut town-Meg vibes without remembering really where those vibes come from. The past? My imagination? Idk. But I also thought your thoughts for cantrip and Emiko seemed natural.
@KCC:
I'll be thinking on it tonight, maybe into tomorrow as well. If I have time, I'd like to do a reread focusing on it.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Nah silver still outed.
Dude claims to believe my "encouraging vaimes to push emiko" statement is factually incorrect and doesnt come from town but then said that there cant be more than one scum in (me plus kk who directly agreed with it and kj who thought the same thing separately)
Vote stays
Tom, this post is a great example of my thoughts on your case. I believe you believe this, but I don't believe it's a good assumption that silver would consider this exact specific line of reasoning
Also, I feel like silver was specifically saying he didn't see those thoughts coming from townTom, not any generic townie. I can understand you lumping that together, but it feels like an important distinction from the outside
first of all, if its me-specific its even worse since im quite sure silver knows that the actual reason im so inscrutable is because i have an infinite townrange as much as an infinite wolfrange. Like, dude has seen me roleplay as a spider. Dude has played with me as an alt he thought was an extremely serious new player in game. Dude has seen me post entirely in shards of alara block flavor text
(Sidenote: i have no idea if hes read those games specifically theyre just examples (except the middle one. RIP user not-a-gimmick) but weve definitely played enough)
And its not about an exact line of reasoning. Its that hes still maintaining that unwavering scumread of me because he feels he has to not because of his opinions on posts
Vezok was actually slightly less townie than neutral but recent posts are better
Tom ignoring that I flat out admitted that if KJ is saying the same thing about that TWTBAW post then him being town might not be a crazy notion so he could say that I specifically didn't say that is... I don't even know what to say about it, really. Dude's either howling because he thinks my mislunch should be a slam dunk and is frustrated there isn't more traction or deep in a tunnel and lost his flashlight.
the ridiculous fic continues tbh.
Scumtom pushing townsilver would be absolutely ecstatic to pick up a half dozen townreads for a push that doesnt have to flip any time soon.
I could vote whoever i wanted based on being wolf with silver or just throw up my hands because no ones listening and... you know, vote whoever i want.
What the **** would scumtom be frustrated about my dude?
He's not scumhunting at all. Reread him and you'll see it.
Would you say the same thing about Tom? They've been about equally focused on each other
would you?
Its definitely my strongest read but feel like ive been working on solving, like, kj/rhand/vez/kk/emiko at least
Feels like more than my usual at least. my last towngame i literally died only having given a single read (a correct scumread i successfully got lynched, ftr)
Silver: makes a bunch of posts swishing around worlds where tom is town, puts him in yellow instead of orange in a readslist
Tom: "Silver's scum read is unwavering and he knows I would do anything as either alignment, also I wouldn't do the specific thing he says he thinks I'm doing if I was a wolf though"
If you are town we are not reading the same game my dude
I almost would believe you want me to be a wolf this badly, but at the same time you kind of are just pushing this dead end wagon and getting town read for it so like
Tom: It uses passive language, doesn't actively engage the people you're refencing, and doesn't really engage, well, anyone. It's also not taking
credit" for the opinion. Like "I think there should be votes on kj" is active. "Hey, Silver/KK/whoever, why are you not voting for kj?"
Just sitting back and pondering why there are no votes without trying to make some.
ima need you to rethink this opinion which suggests that the towny thing for me to do is get people to vote you when i dont think youre scum
first of all, if its me-specific its even worse since im quite sure silver knows that the actual reason im so inscrutable is because i have an infinite townrange as much as an infinite wolfrange. Like, dude has seen me roleplay as a spider. Dude has played with me as an alt he thought was an extremely serious new player in game. Dude has seen me post entirely in shards of alara block flavor text
(Sidenote: i have no idea if hes read those games specifically theyre just examples (except the middle one. RIP user not-a-gimmick) but weve definitely played enough)
Okay, great, but, that's all quite a bit different from what silver is saying. He doubts that townTom genuinely suspects silver for the reasons given. Questioning your underlying reasoning has nothing to do with your role play talents.
Otherwise, I didn’t find them very telling compared to his earlier post I mentioned.
Reason I said he might be a wolf if you're town is because that post reads a lot like a tom partner trying to distance from him and also put the lens on you without being responsible for the lunch
I guess it also makes some sense the other way around (a you partner trying to distance from you without getting you lunched while pushing the other side of me/tom) but the first one makes more sense I think
Probably not biased because I think tom is a wolf though
But yeah just thought it was weird that if you thought the case against me was a slam dunk you'd just gloss over someone agreeing with me
I think I just have to read you the way I try to read everyone, ignoring the prescribed (and imo overused) scumtells and focus on finding the motive.
Talk to me about not-me for a bit
What do you think about this KK / Rhand thing?
Or just Rhand in general is fine
credit" for the opinion. Like "I think there should be votes on kj" is active. "Hey, Silver/KK/whoever, why are you not voting for kj?"
Just sitting back and pondering why there are no votes without trying to make some.
Emiko: Scum in the people throwing suspicion at me. Or do you think they're all town? Just what do you think of that?
KCC: Can you help me see where tom believes his case, and is not just pushing behind a facade of fervor? I kinda think he's just trying to sound confident, and is using that to try to push his case through.
If tom is scum, I may have found a secret way to read him. If true, I'm never, ever gonna tell him what it is.
I'm not a huge fan of Vezok's 440, but at the same time he's voting for someone I think is scummy. which is fine. I guess I don't like the way he's doing it. Also "shadow can wait" just sounds... fake?
Vez Explain those numbers about shadow/KK alignment? Why do you think they're not aligned? Why is town/town more likely than scum/scum?
Rhand needs to do more so I can read him.
If he can maintain it then he's probably town. It should start to really see after a few more posts like this one.
If you're town, I don't want to discourage this, but, can you explain at all how/why, because this feels sudden
Maybe? But it'll need to wait a bit
This morning I woke up and after a while decided it was too early and I had to go back to bed for an hour, but not before reading and getting over-emotional and posting 439.
Then I woke up, saw silver’s response, and found it reasonable. And I was like, “Oh yeah, I’m not 100% sure he’s scum and I’m really not ever supposed to be 100% certain before confirmation.”
I realized this over the course of writing my response in 447, and added the first line about my tunneling in the middle of typing it up because I didn’t trust myself to portray the slow revelation it was in the middle of the writing without it “sounding manufactured.”
Idk how well that answers your why question, but that’s my thought process at least.
which players do you feel are throwing suspicion at you ?
The opening show is now over. The first performers are now entering the stage. Luckily for all of you, there is going to be a lot performances coming up before any of you will have to step on the stage.
Megiddo (4): Rhand, Cantripmancer, KittyCupCake, Silvercrys3467
KoolKoal (3): Megiddo, shadowlancerx, vezokpiraka
Silvercrys3467 (2): tomsloger, KoolKoal
KittyCupCake (1): EmikoYuriemoto
vezokpiraka (1): Vaimes
Not Voting (0): Killjoy
V/LA: -
With 12 alive, it’s 7 to lynch. Deadline is on October 11th.
Megs come back to us!
It's a really bizarre angle to take on somebody voting/casing you.
Why do you think it's not a bus? Or, really, why do you think it couldn't be scum/scum? That seems within the realm of possibility to me.
hm.
Ok I originally quoted this post and I was going to be like "yeah I like this KK post. good catch on the "ignoring something difficult to argue against" bit"
Now i'm noticing the silver vote and I actually don't like it here.
So, cool.
IDK man, this narrative you're ascribing to Tom really looks like something you made up yourself:
I went back to find this and it just feels like a HUGE overreaction to a single vote.
I don't get why you would be energetic about the whole thing. Now, yes, after this point it makes sense that you'd get into it, but here??
your self-aware comments about "poking the bear" really raise my hackles too.
1) why would you tie me/vez together there? What makes us buddies?
2) "sure" was a bit strong but usually i get people voting me for playing this way. You can see i've gathered a reasonable number of votes.
I liked your vote because it didn't feel lazy. Though I will now ask: have you since read up on ZE or done any other meta digging on me?
To contrast, this is a lazy vote.
This is a good observation on KCC, and I like the vote. I'm personally not sure on KCC's alignment, but this case/progression feels pure.
(also, i agree on 345 lol. that's the one I blanked out above. Meanwhile, i'm making a post that's going to be even worse...)
Which interactions of mine are bad? And why are they bad?
What about KK? Can you substantiate that read?
Also curious where the silver townread comes from.
good.
i'm pretty easy to read I think, mostly because I have historically been godawful as scum...
I suppose now is where i can ask this question...
Why are you treating emiko like a newb despite claimed experience?
I forgot I quoted this too.
But uh, why do you think emiko is new? I thought the KCC thing was pretty astute. also I feel like she is playing with a lot of confidence.
can you explain why specifically it is towny?
Why would scum want to continue the fight? Or, more realistically, what's preventing KK from being town who became convinced that the argument wasn't town on town and decided to weigh in with that?
This is a weird argument for you to make.
^ /barn with regard to dropping
tho silver could have easily just ignored your case. he definitely drew the attention with his response to your initial post.
I'm not sure what to make of KK right now + his stuff from the last night.
will do some research; it sounded ok but, weird tone today?
coming out of this with silver / rhand scum i think. Rhand popin posts not inspiring and don't make a ton of sense. hopefully after he is off of v/la he can post more. Silver, see above.
I'm not super confident on things rn. the game has a lot of experienced players who are good at playing slightly detached, I think, which makes it hard for me to get good d1 reads.
ewp i see there's a votecount.
unvote, vote silver
game: after this afternoon I am going to be v/la until wednesday. Going to a wedding. Will try and post but no promises. I'm around the rest of the day though.
Didn't realize megs had that many votes
Guess KK was right about his wagon being popular
Maybe it's just tom/Rhand/+1 or something? +1 is probably on KK at the moment if he's town
Wagons feel ~weird~ even though two of my wolf reads are top wagons
but even there I have the biggest wagon I believe.
I don't think it's a good post but like
Him thinking I'm a wolf with Rhand is pretty much where I expected KK to go and why I raised my eyebrows at him again
But at the same time it's kind of a weird look on Megs, maybe it's just because megs hasn't said ~anything yet other than "team tom! yay!" and he popped in after momentum on me disintegrated with a bunch of stuff other people already said basicallly
flashbacks to my "weird energy" post
but I think that's probably a function of D1 + a lot of experienced players. things will probably get more cohesive as we go.
Which is fine but I kind of don't think you're wolves together so
Didn't have anything I wanted to address you with specifically so I didn't
see you guys wednesday.
Not even all that sure you are, much less sure than I was tom when I responded to him the first time
Almost moved to Rhand in that other post but kind of glad I didn't if Rhand's vote is from RVS, tied wagons are happy wagons and all that
Just wanted to throw out there that I think Cantrip is town.
I know his secrets.
@meg: I don’t think Emiko is lying, I don’t think he/she is brand new, but probably only has a few games under their belt.
Maybe it’s just the language barrier, but I think Emiko’s reads are coming from simple things and the picture isn’t being fully put together in places.
@sulver: I don’t know about a scumbuddy defending you by mimicking your reads exactly, yet not voting me. Like, if his purpose was to defend you I’d think more pressure would be the default way to go. (also, defend you from what? You clearly don’t need defending from me at the moment, nor did you then ).
However, I also originally read it and went, “yeah yeah, another person not listening to me about silver and just brainlessly attacking me.” You know, before my nap.
What question are you referring to?
Hrm
I guess he did say Megs "confessed" maybe he left his vote on purpose?
also I have no clue why you keep like, expecting me specifically to ask you questions there are ten other players in the game
Could, I suppose, see you expecting me to grill you over some kind of inconsistency if I was town with a real scum read and thinking I'm a wolf for not doing that but like
I don't have a magic "gotcha" on you and I don't even think the case is that strong, there isn't anything I think you "need to answer for" just your positioning and behavior feels sketchy
Would lunch tom over you 10 times out of 10 if I could get the votes, but seems like everyone who thinks I'm town thinks he's town too so
Kind of think wolf!Megiddo doesn't even bother trying to push me further when pushing KK is both way easier and likelier to save him, on further reflection, though I guess if they're w/w it makes a bit more sense
But just in general if they're w/w they're putting all their eggs into the basket of getting me mislunched to save themselves when that doesn't seem likely to happen with the amount of resistance to wagoning me
Maybe I look like an easier target than e.g. Killjoy or Rhand I guess
But really it kind of feels like the Megs wagon was a response to mine and then KK when mine lost some momentum and both of them piling on me isn't the, like, wolf reaction I'd expect which is why the wagons feel weird
If they're both wolves they ~should be looking for another wagon right now not trying to jumpstart a dead one
Ehhhh
unvote
Think I talked myself out of Megs but I'm not quite talked into Rhand or KK yet
Gonna watch the wagons for a bit
This exchange:
The whole point here was to see how carefully you had thought about this.
80% sure was before tunneling? That's still worth pushing, isn't it? On the other hand, if you were already down the tunnel here, why didn't you reconsider when I specifically asked you to? You made it sound like you did think it over carefully and were happy with it
I'm having a little trouble seeing that response to that type of question, followed by backing off later with a claim of tunneling.
I’m still not sure if I was in the tunnel yet or not in that 80% post
because I have one: killjoy did a thing I suggested that he do when he was asking about how to avoid being mislynched as town. I think on balance that's leantown (hence my earlier contextless post to this effect). I'm not sure if killjoy goes two levels deep to do that as scum pretending to be town trying to up his game, which only works if specific people that were in a different game happen to be in this one and notice AND think it means anything. I specifically and probably the only one who cares enough to notice. this seems like a lot of effort vs. just trying to incorporate a suggestion he got into his towngame.
@kk: what did you like about my big post?
@silver: the reason I said what I did is that you keep talking about things but not really engaging with them. I was expecting you to have questions or something vs just commenting about my post. It just consistently feels like you're not really in the game, like you're watching it happen and commentating on it rather than playing. and I do not like how that looks. your hyper-self aware meta play is strange artifice that feels like a scum strategy rather than an authentic approach to the game.
Nevermind on this. You said you wanted a break from silver for a bit, and that's fine.
My tone is fake/wooden/artifical, I'm too self aware, over explainy, reads/reactions feel manufactured (which, I think is more of a tone thing than anything)
Just like, yeah, I let day 1 happen to me, ask some questions but try not to get too bogged down
It's the weakest part of my game but I don't even really think I want to fix it, hasn't gotten me mislunched yet and gives me good interactions to work with D2+ since I can see who was trying to solve the enigma and who was trying to lunch it just for being different / easy to push
Like did you see the wagon analysis I already did on myself? *****'s pure gold when you know my alignment, and when I can check my own wagon plus the lunch wagon plus see how the game pivoted around the night kill, like
I do get strong reads sometimes (hill house, tom here) and try to chase them, but usually no one listens anyway and on balance Day 1 is basically a random lunch, game doesn't really start for me until D2 when we have some flips and possibly night action info
Usual D1 strategy is to collect a few townreads I think I can trust, then lunch [not them] and see who pushed where and how after the lunch+N1 kill.
Doing not so good on that front this game, lot of y'all are very wolfy, but I'm pretty okay not lunching Vaimes/KCC and Emiko is pretty townie. Maybe shadow belongs here too, definitely wouldn't vote him toDay.
Also tom knows all of this because we've played a bunch of games together and he's probably tired of reading my self meta by now, it's like, one of the reasons I think he's a wolf
@cantrip: If I had my Neighborizer ability here, I'd definitely take the flip into account, but if I had to pick now, I might do you and vaimes again for similar reasons. Or if I didn't think either of us was a high NK target by day's end, I might do me and Tom, since I'm actually townReading him here, and now that I'm more familiar, he seems the most likely to cause trouble with me.
@kj re: Tom's sincerity: In modern, Tom's posts were a constant static grey to me right up until a couple posts at the end of my last Day, where it started to slip. -The way people talked about him, I assumed it was just a playstyle thing (I've played with players like that) and wrote it off. But he just feels different here. He feels actively townie, which I didn't get once from him in modern. Based on that, I think scumTom might be great at masking overt scumminess but not great at projecting townieness, which if I'm right here, he actually can do as town
Actually, I feel like you hadn't opened up this game yet before that post, trying to be the man in the shadows. I got gut town-Meg vibes without remembering really where those vibes come from. The past? My imagination? Idk. But I also thought your thoughts for cantrip and Emiko seemed natural.
@KCC:
I'll be thinking on it tonight, maybe into tomorrow as well. If I have time, I'd like to do a reread focusing on it.
Maybe Rhand can show up soon?
(I successfully summoned Megs in 462 so its worth a shot )
(Sidenote: i have no idea if hes read those games specifically theyre just examples (except the middle one. RIP user not-a-gimmick) but weve definitely played enough)
And its not about an exact line of reasoning. Its that hes still maintaining that unwavering scumread of me because he feels he has to not because of his opinions on posts
Scumtom pushing townsilver would be absolutely ecstatic to pick up a half dozen townreads for a push that doesnt have to flip any time soon.
I could vote whoever i wanted based on being wolf with silver or just throw up my hands because no ones listening and... you know, vote whoever i want.
What the **** would scumtom be frustrated about my dude?
Its definitely my strongest read but feel like ive been working on solving, like, kj/rhand/vez/kk/emiko at least
Feels like more than my usual at least. my last towngame i literally died only having given a single read (a correct scumread i successfully got lynched, ftr)
Tom: "Silver's scum read is unwavering and he knows I would do anything as either alignment, also I wouldn't do the specific thing he says he thinks I'm doing if I was a wolf though"
If you are town we are not reading the same game my dude
I almost would believe you want me to be a wolf this badly, but at the same time you kind of are just pushing this dead end wagon and getting town read for it so like
Rhand looks like he gave thoughts on our fight having obly been given cliff notes on it not reading the posts
Offhand? Without rereading? Yeah, I can't name a single opinion you have on anything but silver.
But that wasn't really the point of that question
Wolves attach more importance to votes on them