KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Meg: Yes, you posted a massive case that looked as if to attempt to get KCC lynched but a lot of it would have been stronger had you talked to KCC about it to clarify her positioning. Like, yeah her progression on KCC was weird. Why not confront her on it? We had a couple days till deadline at that point. At least attempting to ask would have demonstrated a desire to, you know, solve.
No our back and forth isn't waht I'm referring to.
Re: ISOing me: When you ISO'd me you'd notice I've been townreading KCC pretty much all game. Therefore your confusion is weird, especially after doing so.
My read on KCC isn't as town now because of the point you made about her progression on KK+ the things I noticed that I stated in our back and forth. But I intend to see what's up with that. I'm not sure you want to due to how you approached this.
Yes, we do have different views on KCC's votes... but like I said, I feel like poking around is something a cop might do. Do you disagree?
I'm not asking if that's the optimal strategy. I'm asking if that's a thing that it makes sense to do from your perspective.
Now, I'd like to see your response to KCC's recent postings.
@KCC: Lets talk about KK. Can you draw a line between each of the posts in question that myself and Meg were talking about? There was one where you said "Still not liking KK" despite that being the first time you mentioned actually not liking KK, and there was the other where you pushed against counterwagons for him. There were more I think but that's what immediately came to mind.
Vaimes: If you feel my quetsions are irrelevent, tell me which ones are and why. You can't jsut dismiss everything I ask you because "you are afraid I might be confbiasing" witnout telling me why I'm wrong.
Chris: Hi. Welcome to the game. I'm townreading your slot for a reason I'm unwilling to state.
Talk to me about your view on Megs. And Vaimes. Thanks.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KCC: Lets talk about KK. Can you draw a line between each of the posts in question that myself and Meg were talking about? There was one where you said "Still not liking KK" despite that being the first time you mentioned actually not liking KK, and there was the other where you pushed against counterwagons for him. There were more I think but that's what immediately came to mind.
I addressed "still not liking KK" in my last post. Meg missed 2 of my posts about KK, the first where I agreed with a point shadow made on KK, and then the post directly before it where I proposed a KK scumteam. Which was shortly followed by another KK post that I "still didn't like". And there's also my less direct questions with KK before that, which, it's important to understand, I pretty much only interact with players in 3 ways: answering questions, managing wagons, and hunting.
I don't even remember you two discussing KKs counterwagons, but without knowing the exact context, I'm going to guess that of course I was pushing against KK counterwagons, I wanted him lynched.
If you want more than that, I'm going to need something more specific to go on
@Anyone pushing a KK counterwagon from this point forward: I'm going to need to see not just why you think they are a better lynch, but why you think they are so much more likely to be scum that it's worth dumping more claims into the thread at this point. Or, why you don't care
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
God I hate games where everyone seems to be making good points.
KJ, I just had a moment of frustration. It’s not that the questions are irrelevant, I’m at a point where I want more hard stances rather than questions that go on forever and ever.
Okay, so part of that is me believing we already had scum and not wanting to let him go on a vanilla claim.
But mostly, that is just good gameplay:
Let's say we run someone else up to claim at EoD. What are the possible outcomes?
1 (Worst case): We run up a town PR and they get NKed. This is what I'm trying to avoid.
2 (still bad): We run up a vanilla townie, but then decide we actually do want to go back and lynch KK after all. This isn't as bad as 1, but still helps scum with setup info and narrowed NK targets, for no reason.
3 (meh): We run up scum, they claim power. If immediately CCed, this catches scum, but outs power earlier than needed. Not all townies know to hold their CC. If no CC, we just go back and lynch KK. Which is fine, as that scum is now somewhat exposed and locked into the claim, but isn't any short term benefit, and not really worth the risk of the worse outcomes
4 (best case): We run up another Vanilla claim and actually lynch them. If town, not a huge loss, but we shouldn't have run up KK then. If scum, great, but we still shouldn't have run up KK first.
-And that's basically the test I briefly posted there: if we are passing on a Vanilla claim, we better be confident enough in the new target being scum that it's worth the risk of exposing PRs.
@Meg: Yes, you posted a massive case that looked as if to attempt to get KCC lynched but a lot of it would have been stronger had you talked to KCC about it to clarify her positioning. Like, yeah her progression on KCC was weird. Why not confront her on it? We had a couple days till deadline at that point. At least attempting to ask would have demonstrated a desire to, you know, solve.
No our back and forth isn't waht I'm referring to.
quoting myself: I realize now I think I answered the wrong question. Are you saying here that I should have waited until I could question KCC before posting a case?
She was on V/LA. And not returning until just before deadline. The game was stagnating, and I'll be damned if we fall back to lazy default lynches and lose because of it. KCC wasn't where I started that night but it's where I ended it.
KCC now has a lot to talk about when she does come back, and I'm looking forward to talking to her about it. You'll note I haven't actually voted her, right? I am in fact waiting for her to respond.
Can you elaborate on the "desire to solve" comment?
Quote from Killjoy »
Re: ISOing me: When you ISO'd me you'd notice I've been townreading KCC pretty much all game. Therefore your confusion is weird, especially after doing so.
My read on KCC isn't as town now because of the point you made about her progression on KK+ the things I noticed that I stated in our back and forth. But I intend to see what's up with that. I'm not sure you want to due to how you approached this.
1) OK, so you were townreading her all game, but why does that prompt such a defense here in her absence? I don't think I have exactly been trying to strongarm people into voting KCC in absentia here. I posted a case and immediately we got sucked into a back and forth. I did ask you what you thought of it, but like... why jump in in the first place? Why continue the argument? Outside of answering direct questions about it I don't think I've exactly been hammering people over the head to VOTE KCC. Even I haven't voted her... because I was waiting for her.
2) I'm very interested in why you would say I'm not interested in sussing out KCC. Again, she wasn't here. And what have I been doing in the meantime, do you think? If I had done what you suggested I would have... asked KCC a bunch of questions and sat on my hands until she came back, which was right before deadline. Cool. Is that more effective than doing what I did? The content of the post would have likely been very similar.
Quote from Killjoy »
Yes, we do have different views on KCC's votes... but like I said, I feel like poking around is something a cop might do. Do you disagree?
I'm not asking if that's the optimal strategy. I'm asking if that's a thing that it makes sense to do from your perspective.
Now, I'd like to see your response to KCC's recent postings.
I don't disagree that a cop might want to poke around. I'd agree that makes sense.
However, I do disagree with your premise here. I think you're trying to shift the argument away here from evaluating the qualities of KCC's posts to determine if they are actually "poking around" to saying that "poking around is a thing that cops do." Which I do not like; I think you're begging the question.
I also am very excited to dig through KCC's responses and actually talk to her face to face! I'll get to that today.
Because I didn't start it. Vaimes told you to slapfight with KCC. And then you just went off on your case.
Hm? I'd dispute that description of events. But let's say you're right and things happened exactly as you just said. What does this say about me, Vaimes, and KCC?
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
God I hate games where everyone seems to be making good points.
KJ, I just had a moment of frustration. It’s not that the questions are irrelevant, I’m at a point where I want more hard stances rather than questions that go on forever and ever.
Who has good points? Which points are good?
Do you have any HARD STANCES?
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
And it’s like, definitely part of KJ’s town play style to ask a ton of questions without necessarily providing the same amount/depth of answers on his own thoughts.
I think the real problem is I’m just struggling with too many townreads. Like I liked Chris’ entrance, probably because he came in insta-townreading me and I’m a gullible fool.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Apparently the new guys found their way instantly to the green room and hoarded all the booze, you heard. Luckily for you, you already raided the green room earlier so this no big loss for you.
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupCake
Not Voting (7): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer, Vaimes, vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
V/LA: -
With 9 alive, it’s 5 to lynch. Deadline is on October 24th.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
My son was up the whole night, I just woke up after crashing and he is coming home from daycare.
Terrible Twos indeed.
So first question I have to ask before diving into Wisp/KCC is in a game of 12 why can't these two roles simply exist? Hosts love to screw with players who think they are clever and if you fall into the trap that that one of them has to be lying it pretty much negates how good these roles existing together actually is. What is Bur's hosting experience?
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
The argument KCC is proposing is that with an Informed Vanilla, their check, the Cop and their check, and the vig, that's potentially five townfirms on Day 2.
And her insistence that we lunch one/both of her and Last feels like something that might actually end up happening, and is therefore too dangerous to be wine.
Of course, had tom lived and we had all the claims out in the open, what would happen is that we'd lunch one of the cops, they'd flip town, tom would vig the other, the mafia would shoot tom, and then we would cry.
Anyway even though I think your slot is probably scum, some fresh insight into the issue can't hurt!
In a mini, I feel like anything more than three town PRs (slash townfirms) isn't likely to be a thing. So a vig/cop/checked vanilla against whatever mafia have, probably a doctor or bulletproof. If Last is town, mafia can't really have a counterpart role for that, which is a point not in his favor. In a bigger game it's not a huge deal.
The argument KCC is proposing is that with an Informed Vanilla, their check, the Cop and their check, and the vig, that's potentially five townfirms on Day 2.
And if that's the setup, 95% of the posts in this game become useless fluff. The game comes down to: do we believe both cops, and lynch through the 4 noncleared players for an autowin, or do we distrust the claims, and lynch both for an autoloss. That's it. Everything else in the thread is pointless except that single point of setup gaming.
I mean Bur does seem like the type to sit there laughing while we decide whether to press the "be awful and win" button or the "be sensible and lose spectacularly" button.
God I hate games where everyone seems to be making good points.
KJ, I just had a moment of frustration. It’s not that the questions are irrelevant, I’m at a point where I want more hard stances rather than questions that go on forever and ever.
Cool. What stances are you looking for from me? Why not ask (lol) for them? I can't read your mind.
Okay, so part of that is me believing we already had scum and not wanting to let him go on a vanilla claim.
But mostly, that is just good gameplay:
Let's say we run someone else up to claim at EoD. What are the possible outcomes?
1 (Worst case): We run up a town PR and they get NKed. This is what I'm trying to avoid.
2 (still bad): We run up a vanilla townie, but then decide we actually do want to go back and lynch KK after all. This isn't as bad as 1, but still helps scum with setup info and narrowed NK targets, for no reason.
3 (meh): We run up scum, they claim power. If immediately CCed, this catches scum, but outs power earlier than needed. Not all townies know to hold their CC. If no CC, we just go back and lynch KK. Which is fine, as that scum is now somewhat exposed and locked into the claim, but isn't any short term benefit, and not really worth the risk of the worse outcomes
4 (best case): We run up another Vanilla claim and actually lynch them. If town, not a huge loss, but we shouldn't have run up KK then. If scum, great, but we still shouldn't have run up KK first.
-And that's basically the test I briefly posted there: if we are passing on a Vanilla claim, we better be confident enough in the new target being scum that it's worth the risk of exposing PRs.
Meg: Talk to me about this post. Show me scum!KCC from this post.
Because this post feels like her actual thoughts and not some BS she made up on the spot.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I have notes and started responses that I can't access currently, but I wanted to pop in to say that I think KCC's logic is similar to what I was calculating in Modern to try and figure out whether Tom and Vaimes could both be vigs. I think it's sound logic, so I'm still very much in the "lunch one of the cops" camp. Although I think KCC is the more likely of the two to risk fake claiming, Wisp is definitely scummier imo behaviorally. And him indicating he was going to post yesterday...and still having not posted yet is not a good look, so if we were up against deadline right now, I'd vote Wisp.
I really do have some responses and things I want to say, but I'm not going to recreate the Mona Lisa, so I'll post what I can in the morning.
@Meg: Yes, you posted a massive case that looked as if to attempt to get KCC lynched but a lot of it would have been stronger had you talked to KCC about it to clarify her positioning. Like, yeah her progression on KCC was weird. Why not confront her on it? We had a couple days till deadline at that point. At least attempting to ask would have demonstrated a desire to, you know, solve.
No our back and forth isn't waht I'm referring to.
Can you elaborate on the "desire to solve" comment?
The way you just jumped into your case/ the conclusions your case led to feels... more like you're trying to self-pres to prevent your lynch by pushing a different one instead of actually being suspicious of KCC. You're kind of on the chopping block right now, with most people willing to lynch you. I can see scum!you saying "I need to find a different target for the town to lynch so it's not me" so you proposed KCC. Yout whole case started from you just going through the KCC ISO and seeing the post about "Still not liking KK" and kind of... built from there? Like... KCC is back now, but you're not engaging her. You're spending your effort trying to convince ME that she's scum instead of verifying whether the scumtells you saw were real. KCC answered your posts about her. You don't appear to have responded to her.
1) OK, so you were townreading her all game, but why does that prompt such a defense here in her absence? I don't think I have exactly been trying to strongarm people into voting KCC in absentia here. I posted a case and immediately we got sucked into a back and forth. I did ask you what you thought of it, but like... why jump in in the first place? Why continue the argument? Outside of answering direct questions about it I don't think I've exactly been hammering people over the head to VOTE KCC. Even I haven't voted her... because I was waiting for her.
You're saying my 'defense' like I immediately tried to counter all of your points on her. It started in 1367... and I made that post to you because I took issue with the intent I percieved your post to have. And then you also asked me what I thought of her.
2) I'm very interested in why you would say I'm not interested in sussing out KCC. Again, she wasn't here. And what have I been doing in the meantime, do you think? If I had done what you suggested I would have... asked KCC a bunch of questions and sat on my hands until she came back, which was right before deadline. Cool. Is that more effective than doing what I did? The content of the post would have likely been very similar.
Again, it was the way you jumped into judgment instead of asking questions and waiting. Even, like, 12-24 hours. Like, you just ISO'd KCC, then decided she was scum. Whether she was here or not, your course of action can't really solve the mystery of her alignment if you've already reached a conclusion.
I don't disagree that a cop might want to poke around. I'd agree that makes sense.
However, I do disagree with your premise here. I think you're trying to shift the argument away here from evaluating the qualities of KCC's posts to determine if they are actually "poking around" to saying that "poking around is a thing that cops do." Which I do not like; I think you're begging the question.
I also am very excited to dig through KCC's responses and actually talk to her face to face! I'll get to that today.
...I've already quoted the posts I said I believed fit that pattern then explained why that pattern I believe fits her claim. You're accusation that I'm trying to shift the conversation away from anything is incorrect. And possibly malicious. Probably? maybe?
Hm? I'd dispute that description of events. But let's say you're right and things happened exactly as you just said. What does this say about me, Vaimes, and KCC?
Lol. Look who's shifting the conversation now? You dispute my version of events without providing one of your own. Then you change the subject to you, Vaimes, and KCC.
Like I said before, you and KCC likely aren't scum together. It's unlikely that you launch into a case on your buddy for no reason.
Vaimes and KCC might be, though again I'm not scumreading KCC. There's just nothing I see immediately unaligning them.
You and Vaimes could be scum together. I'm actually kinda leaning this way right now.
Also Vote Meg.. I don't believe you're being honest, especially with your thoughts on KCC.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'll let KJ respond first, but I have opinions on this
@kj: Yeah, Meg is almost certainly scum. The worst part of the case there might be: "OMG, look at all the half-naked votes in this game! That's bad!" "Now, compare this to Modern where we see... lots of awesome half-naked votes!" There is no sincere effort at comparison there, he just changes the tone of how he describes them to reach his conclusion.
I slept for 12 hours for no reason and didn't intend to do that.
I'm here now. KJ is right about Megs being scum is last and KCC are town, but how much do we want to bet on that? I still think we should lynch one of them today and my choice is KCC.
vote KCC
I think we have to get this game moving as deadline is tomorrow.
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For anyone still struggling with a Last lynch, can you walk me through any possible explanation for what a townLast has been doing here?
Last claims a check. I know he's lying, but I'm not CCing D1. There's discussion about how most N0s are fake, either for cop cover, or as a shorthand to say I strongly think X is town but can't verbalize it now. I lean towards he's just Vanilla baiting a NK, which works for me. He comes into D2 reluctant to claim. That makes sense to me if he doesn't want to outright lie, but isn't ready to stop his cop cover, and didn't work out the problem of a Lylo Tomorrow. He figures out that problem, and hints he's going to come clean and is preparing for the backlash. This still all makes total sense until... he confirms his claim. Ugh
Okay, so... now what? Well, now we need to reevaluate his play, through other lenses
Claiming immediately seems brave. But, if he's CCed there, it's super easy to just say "Oh no! That wasn't serious!" And the way his check was being discussed, that probably works out fine. He's not CCed and enters D2. Now, there's several calls for him to really claim, but also calls for any other info role to CC. Last is preparing to walk back his claim, but drags his feet to see if he can still pull a CC. He starts picking up votes and realizes he can't wait any longer, strongly hints that he is going to unclaim, but gets some negative reactions to that. He decides maybe it'd be better to just stick with his claim, especially since he hasn't been CCed yet.
He freely claims almost immediately, which, while it's not how I'd play it, isn't unreasonable for a N0. But after openly claiming D1, he starts stubbornly dragging his feet about claiming again D2. Why? What is this? He eventually realizes it could be Lylo Tomorrow and that he really should claim, but... doesn't yet. Why isn't 1235 just "Oh I didn't do the math, yes my check is real." There's 3 or 4 more posts dragging it out, but what could a real Cop possibly be so worried about in here? And after, Last feels way to willing to accept my claim.
I'd yell at him, but it'd be between laughs
So that's pretty much where I am. Last surprised me with confirming, and after looking back through his play, there's 3 big things that I don't think make any sense if he were trueClaiming
Hey, Vez, can I get your thoughts on
-Why last was cagey with his claim D2, after being so willing to claim D1?
-What Last was so worried about after deciding he needed to claim Today
-Why he's not voting me
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hey, Vez, can I get your thoughts on
-Why last was cagey with his claim D2, after being so willing to claim D1?
-What Last was so worried about after deciding he needed to claim Today
-Why he's not voting me
1. Didnt think I needed to claim yet
2. thats just my paranioa
3. I havent voted anyone yet, ive barely read since monday
waiting for another day end then ill figure this ***** out
one I reead up, ill place my vote, I am not super convinced that KCC's play here comes from a wolf
does the day phase end today? if so I only got about 3 hours before work
why has everyone been stingy with their votes, why did I sit at 2 votes for 4 days, and the vote count just changed?
KCC votes Megs
and Vaimes votes me
this is gunna be bad tomorrow once I flip town, and if KCC is town as well
I mean I get where Vaimes is coming from
but its not impossible
I think KJ is highly likely to be town based off of the fact that he isn't accepting the paradigm of the day as it has been established. Going against the grain in this scenario is a good look.
Not sure I am going to have time to do a full re-read but I will say I think it is dangerous to rely too much on setup gaming like I see from a lot of you. "Well if this is that we lose anyway lol" is just such a trash level thinking process.
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I think KJ is highly likely to be town based off of the fact that he isn't accepting the paradigm of the day as it has been established. Going against the grain in this scenario is a good look.
Not sure I am going to have time to do a full re-read but I will say I think it is dangerous to rely too much on setup gaming like I see from a lot of you. "Well if this is that we lose anyway lol" is just such a trash level thinking process.
Please focus on Last or KCC, if you’re pressed for time.
It’s trash but it’s where we’re at. You can complain about it later.
I mean clearly I can complain about it now too. I thought I did a good job of that!
Anyway I am from a community where the entire days last 48 hours, so I don't accept being pigeon holed into this dynamic in any way.
I feel a little bad because Meg had a seemingly fair response to my probing earlier about his vote but I think KJ is highly likely to be town and although I haven't read much I know a bad strategy when I see one so let's PARADIGM SHIFT.
##vote: Meg
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why has everyone been stingy with their votes, why did I sit at 2 votes for 4 days, and the vote count just changed?
KCC votes Megs
and Vaimes votes me
this is gunna be bad tomorrow once I flip town, and if KCC is town as well
I mean I get where Vaimes is coming from
but its not impossible
Can you remind me where you are voting?
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It's supposed to be 1356 and 1357.
Because I didn't start it. Vaimes told you to slapfight with KCC. And then you just went off on your case.
No our back and forth isn't waht I'm referring to.
Re: ISOing me: When you ISO'd me you'd notice I've been townreading KCC pretty much all game. Therefore your confusion is weird, especially after doing so.
My read on KCC isn't as town now because of the point you made about her progression on KK+ the things I noticed that I stated in our back and forth. But I intend to see what's up with that. I'm not sure you want to due to how you approached this.
Yes, we do have different views on KCC's votes... but like I said, I feel like poking around is something a cop might do. Do you disagree?
I'm not asking if that's the optimal strategy. I'm asking if that's a thing that it makes sense to do from your perspective.
Now, I'd like to see your response to KCC's recent postings.
@KCC: Lets talk about KK. Can you draw a line between each of the posts in question that myself and Meg were talking about? There was one where you said "Still not liking KK" despite that being the first time you mentioned actually not liking KK, and there was the other where you pushed against counterwagons for him. There were more I think but that's what immediately came to mind.
Vaimes: If you feel my quetsions are irrelevent, tell me which ones are and why. You can't jsut dismiss everything I ask you because "you are afraid I might be confbiasing" witnout telling me why I'm wrong.
Chris: Hi. Welcome to the game. I'm townreading your slot for a reason I'm unwilling to state.
Talk to me about your view on Megs. And Vaimes. Thanks.
I addressed "still not liking KK" in my last post. Meg missed 2 of my posts about KK, the first where I agreed with a point shadow made on KK, and then the post directly before it where I proposed a KK scumteam. Which was shortly followed by another KK post that I "still didn't like". And there's also my less direct questions with KK before that, which, it's important to understand, I pretty much only interact with players in 3 ways: answering questions, managing wagons, and hunting.
I don't even remember you two discussing KKs counterwagons, but without knowing the exact context, I'm going to guess that of course I was pushing against KK counterwagons, I wanted him lynched.
If you want more than that, I'm going to need something more specific to go on
KJ, I just had a moment of frustration. It’s not that the questions are irrelevant, I’m at a point where I want more hard stances rather than questions that go on forever and ever.
Okay, so part of that is me believing we already had scum and not wanting to let him go on a vanilla claim.
But mostly, that is just good gameplay:
Let's say we run someone else up to claim at EoD. What are the possible outcomes?
1 (Worst case): We run up a town PR and they get NKed. This is what I'm trying to avoid.
2 (still bad): We run up a vanilla townie, but then decide we actually do want to go back and lynch KK after all. This isn't as bad as 1, but still helps scum with setup info and narrowed NK targets, for no reason.
3 (meh): We run up scum, they claim power. If immediately CCed, this catches scum, but outs power earlier than needed. Not all townies know to hold their CC. If no CC, we just go back and lynch KK. Which is fine, as that scum is now somewhat exposed and locked into the claim, but isn't any short term benefit, and not really worth the risk of the worse outcomes
4 (best case): We run up another Vanilla claim and actually lynch them. If town, not a huge loss, but we shouldn't have run up KK then. If scum, great, but we still shouldn't have run up KK first.
-And that's basically the test I briefly posted there: if we are passing on a Vanilla claim, we better be confident enough in the new target being scum that it's worth the risk of exposing PRs.
She was on V/LA. And not returning until just before deadline. The game was stagnating, and I'll be damned if we fall back to lazy default lynches and lose because of it. KCC wasn't where I started that night but it's where I ended it.
KCC now has a lot to talk about when she does come back, and I'm looking forward to talking to her about it. You'll note I haven't actually voted her, right? I am in fact waiting for her to respond.
Can you elaborate on the "desire to solve" comment?
1) OK, so you were townreading her all game, but why does that prompt such a defense here in her absence? I don't think I have exactly been trying to strongarm people into voting KCC in absentia here. I posted a case and immediately we got sucked into a back and forth. I did ask you what you thought of it, but like... why jump in in the first place? Why continue the argument? Outside of answering direct questions about it I don't think I've exactly been hammering people over the head to VOTE KCC. Even I haven't voted her... because I was waiting for her.
2) I'm very interested in why you would say I'm not interested in sussing out KCC. Again, she wasn't here. And what have I been doing in the meantime, do you think? If I had done what you suggested I would have... asked KCC a bunch of questions and sat on my hands until she came back, which was right before deadline. Cool. Is that more effective than doing what I did? The content of the post would have likely been very similar.
I don't disagree that a cop might want to poke around. I'd agree that makes sense.
However, I do disagree with your premise here. I think you're trying to shift the argument away here from evaluating the qualities of KCC's posts to determine if they are actually "poking around" to saying that "poking around is a thing that cops do." Which I do not like; I think you're begging the question.
I also am very excited to dig through KCC's responses and actually talk to her face to face! I'll get to that today.
Hm? I'd dispute that description of events. But let's say you're right and things happened exactly as you just said. What does this say about me, Vaimes, and KCC?
Do you have any HARD STANCES?
My hard stances are that Cantrip/Emiko/vezok win if any of them are scum.
I think the real problem is I’m just struggling with too many townreads. Like I liked Chris’ entrance, probably because he came in insta-townreading me and I’m a gullible fool.
after KJ gets back to me and i go through KCC’s posts above i should have something HARD for you vaimes.
are you waiting for something to happen right now? i feel like you’re just kind of here.
Sooo I’m probably gonna vote for Last, and let the chips fall where they nah.
Plus Emiko sent me on some kind of scavenger hunt, idk I’m still trying to work that out.
where they MAY
Megs I'll get to you after work etc.
Apparently the new guys found their way instantly to the green room and hoarded all the booze, you heard. Luckily for you, you already raided the green room earlier so this no big loss for you.
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupCake
Not Voting (7): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer, Vaimes, vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
V/LA: -
With 9 alive, it’s 5 to lynch. Deadline is on October 24th.
Terrible Twos indeed.
So first question I have to ask before diving into Wisp/KCC is in a game of 12 why can't these two roles simply exist? Hosts love to screw with players who think they are clever and if you fall into the trap that that one of them has to be lying it pretty much negates how good these roles existing together actually is. What is Bur's hosting experience?
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And her insistence that we lunch one/both of her and Last feels like something that might actually end up happening, and is therefore too dangerous to be wine.
Anyway even though I think your slot is probably scum, some fresh insight into the issue can't hurt!
And if that's the setup, 95% of the posts in this game become useless fluff. The game comes down to: do we believe both cops, and lynch through the 4 noncleared players for an autowin, or do we distrust the claims, and lynch both for an autoloss. That's it. Everything else in the thread is pointless except that single point of setup gaming.
Meg: Talk to me about this post. Show me scum!KCC from this post.
Because this post feels like her actual thoughts and not some BS she made up on the spot.
I really do have some responses and things I want to say, but I'm not going to recreate the Mona Lisa, so I'll post what I can in the morning.
You're saying my 'defense' like I immediately tried to counter all of your points on her. It started in 1367... and I made that post to you because I took issue with the intent I percieved your post to have. And then you also asked me what I thought of her.
Again, it was the way you jumped into judgment instead of asking questions and waiting. Even, like, 12-24 hours. Like, you just ISO'd KCC, then decided she was scum. Whether she was here or not, your course of action can't really solve the mystery of her alignment if you've already reached a conclusion.
...I've already quoted the posts I said I believed fit that pattern then explained why that pattern I believe fits her claim. You're accusation that I'm trying to shift the conversation away from anything is incorrect. And possibly malicious. Probably? maybe?
Lol. Look who's shifting the conversation now? You dispute my version of events without providing one of your own. Then you change the subject to you, Vaimes, and KCC.
Like I said before, you and KCC likely aren't scum together. It's unlikely that you launch into a case on your buddy for no reason.
Vaimes and KCC might be, though again I'm not scumreading KCC. There's just nothing I see immediately unaligning them.
You and Vaimes could be scum together. I'm actually kinda leaning this way right now.
Also Vote Meg.. I don't believe you're being honest, especially with your thoughts on KCC.
in 1482 killjoy votes for meg .
why so different ?
I'll let KJ respond first, but I have opinions on this
@kj: Yeah, Meg is almost certainly scum. The worst part of the case there might be: "OMG, look at all the half-naked votes in this game! That's bad!" "Now, compare this to Modern where we see... lots of awesome half-naked votes!" There is no sincere effort at comparison there, he just changes the tone of how he describes them to reach his conclusion.
With that said, no, we can not lynch there Today.
I slept for 12 hours for no reason and didn't intend to do that.
I'm here now. KJ is right about Megs being scum is last and KCC are town, but how much do we want to bet on that? I still think we should lynch one of them today and my choice is KCC.
vote KCC
I think we have to get this game moving as deadline is tomorrow.
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He freely claims almost immediately, which, while it's not how I'd play it, isn't unreasonable for a N0. But after openly claiming D1, he starts stubbornly dragging his feet about claiming again D2. Why? What is this? He eventually realizes it could be Lylo Tomorrow and that he really should claim, but... doesn't yet. Why isn't 1235 just "Oh I didn't do the math, yes my check is real." There's 3 or 4 more posts dragging it out, but what could a real Cop possibly be so worried about in here? And after, Last feels way to willing to accept my claim.
I'd yell at him, but it'd be between laughs
So that's pretty much where I am. Last surprised me with confirming, and after looking back through his play, there's 3 big things that I don't think make any sense if he were trueClaiming
-Why last was cagey with his claim D2, after being so willing to claim D1?
-What Last was so worried about after deciding he needed to claim Today
-Why he's not voting me
The way I see it, if both he and KCC are town, we probably always lose. And if KCC is scum, this lunch won’t lose us the game, so.
1. Didnt think I needed to claim yet
2. thats just my paranioa
3. I havent voted anyone yet, ive barely read since monday
waiting for another day end then ill figure this ***** out
it will if KCC is also town...
does the day phase end today? if so I only got about 3 hours before work
KCC votes Megs
and Vaimes votes me
this is gunna be bad tomorrow once I flip town, and if KCC is town as well
I mean I get where Vaimes is coming from
but its not impossible
Not sure I am going to have time to do a full re-read but I will say I think it is dangerous to rely too much on setup gaming like I see from a lot of you. "Well if this is that we lose anyway lol" is just such a trash level thinking process.
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It’s trash but it’s where we’re at. You can complain about it later.
Anyway I am from a community where the entire days last 48 hours, so I don't accept being pigeon holed into this dynamic in any way.
I feel a little bad because Meg had a seemingly fair response to my probing earlier about his vote but I think KJ is highly likely to be town and although I haven't read much I know a bad strategy when I see one so let's PARADIGM SHIFT.
##vote: Meg
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Can you remind me where you are voting?
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player