KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Points where your arguments aren't as strong as I'd like them to be:
You compare this game to Modern. Comparing play in a game where you don't know someone's alignment to the most recent one isn't as telling as you think. It's too small a sample size (and therefore too much room for error) and players play differently between games in the smaller sense. Some things are different, but only the bigger things stay the same. But, given the small sample size, I can't tell what's the big stuff and whats the small stuff.
Quoting myself: "I have been thinking if there's any valid playstyle changeup argument here, and I suppose I'll listen to whatever argument KCC presents on that front, but I am very skeptical that one would go from the monster towngame in Mondern to... this, where we see a lot of shallow-to-nonexistent reads, a lot of staying open and soft-pressure votes, contradictory explainations for behavior (is a vote a push... or not?) and one wagon that looks opportunistic to me in hindsight that she drove straight through to a lynch."
My point here is that while it may be a small sample size, and there may be margins for error, AND we may not be able to tell the "big" and "small" stuff apart as you say, the overall intent and texture behind the things I am seeing is different.
Like, in Modern the intent was pretty clear: Ask questions/comment on scum reads, vote people that she expressed scum reads on when it made sense to do so. In this game... I'm not sure. The approach really does not seem like one designed to actually advance viewpoints, suss out reads, or anything like that.
Quote from Killjoy »
You point out that her progression is less clear in this game. Fine, that could be a thing, but also if she's a Cop, then maybe she doesn't need to put in as much effort to solve people D1. She has a cop shot, She can just... know a person's alignment.
I don't buy this argument.
So yes, as a cop you would want to lay low because you don't want to get NK'd. That's true.
However, regardless of your ability are you really trying to argue that a member of the town doesn't need to try to solve the game?
For one thing, here it's a 1-shot cop. Not a full-game cop. You have to figure out where you're aiming your shot and you have to figure out where you're NOT doing that.
Maybe she's doing that all in her head. Maybe. But then I'd expect more of a forceful entry into Day 2 if you're planning to claim. Like, now that she's claimed the "doesn't need to solve" argument is gone, and I don't really see it here D2 either. This is where we get into the "reread" thing.
Quote from killjoy »
You then say that she interacts with KK a lot, but asks questions that "aren't trying to solve". Can you tell me some of those questions?
Post 768, which you quoted that KCC votes KK is kinda a gotcha post... It could be a "You did something scummy that I can hang you for and not look bad" but I'm also seeing a possibility of that just being the straw that broke the camels back and it turned from "I was kinda thinking you're scum up to now, but this post is just really scummy. VOTE".
I'm always wary of people accusing others of asking questions that "can't solve" because I get that a lot and I'm almost always town when that happens.
However, 1023 and the following point might be a thing. It feels like an over-doing-it push, and if true that she uses 'reread' in lieu of actual reasons frequently might mean she doesn't actually have any.
If you read all of that and think that it demonstrates appropriate pushing of a scumread, let me know/show me specific posts. we can talk about it. And don't forget what I said in the big posts--her vote was based on the slip, and there was never anything from before that brought into her push. Take that into account when you do this.
Quote from killjoy »
I'll quote KCC poking around later, I need to go.
I will say that I don't hate the Emiko targeting as much as you do. She's hard to read I think due to the language barrier. We're not used to her yet so we don't know how to actually read her. It took a while for Rhand also I think.
Vaimes: I will answer you later as well.
Can't wait to see your findings.
Re: Emiko, my main issue is that it just isn't how I would play to use a cop shot. I'd rather target somebody who is actively under suspicion, or an actual scumread. Like, a natural choice yesterday would have been Cantrip. Check him, see if anybody jumps on him today, and depending on your result you can get a good idea of alignments.
Emiko check seems like something that wouldn't come into play until D3 or D4 at the earliest, at which point you (meaning kCC because I'm messing up my sentences), one of the stronger players in the game, expect to still be alive and unclaimed?
It's just... very weird. Obviously given that the CC was coming and that KCC was planning to reveal Today, that changes the targeting, but if that's the case I'd STILL rather have targeted somebody with D2 relevance.
Don't downplay your own contributions!
Oh, one last question for you here: Based on the original posts as well as our back and forth here, do you think I am town? Scum? Why?
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I don't think he's broken past his town range, I think a lot of the pressure on him Day 1 came from town, especially in the world where KCC is fakeclaiming. I struggle to come up with a logical scumteam that doesn't have him on it, though that heavily depends on whether the setup supports both Last and KCC. And I think his pushes have been shallow and half-assed.
Part of me thinks he isn't slick enough as scum to have completely fooled everyone. I think vezok is the only one who suspects him.
When you pointed out how hard he's defending KCC, it made me think for half a second that they're collaborating on posts in scumchat. Especially when I think KCC was (one of) the first to strongly townread KJ. I don't know slash can't be bothered to check if Bur likes having Daychat though, so that statement is completely baseless, it was just a thought that popped up.
I have a feeling I'll be diving into his posts in LyLo and doing a lot of waffling.
Hey people. I just slept for 15 hours and I'm a bit faded.
I think megs puts forth some good arguments against KCC and I'm not really a fan of KJ's defense. I'd prefer waiting for a replacement for Rhand, but will vote for him if it needs be.
I kinda want to lynch KCC, because lynching between the two cop claims in lylo sounds dangerous and right now I think KCC is the more likely scum than last. I'm also not sold on Cantrip.
vote KCC
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Yeah, your posts make a lot more sense if you started responding seriously around there. And I feel it's a good sign if you thought I was joking at first, less likely to come from a guilty conscience
[quote from="KoolKoal »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/814379-eurovision-mafia-day-1-te-deum?comment=180"]You didn't read like probing vaimes to me, especially as you seemed content with your vote on him until just recently.
I was content with my vote there, and then I liked his reaction, and then I found something more interesting
@Meg: Here's what I mean by 'poking around'. She votes people that she wants pressure on, then moves on when she sees something else that needs pressure/when the person she's voting satisfies her. And I don't think it's malicious.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Yeah, your posts make a lot more sense if you started responding seriously around there. And I feel it's a good sign if you thought I was joking at first, less likely to come from a guilty conscience
@Meg: Here's what I mean by 'poking around'. She votes people that she wants pressure on, then moves on when she sees something else that needs pressure/when the person she's voting satisfies her. And I don't think it's malicious.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm just saying your argument is mostly pretty weak. Is not as definitive as you seen to think.
You are saying a lot more than that.
Specifically, yes I am saying more than that. Generally, no. My point was that a lot of what you were saying you were scumreading her for I also saw decently likely town reasons for. The one I pointed out as not that is the only one of what you said was something that is likelier scum than not. But at the same time, she could be tunneling (which Idk if I've said yet, is part of why I'm not just jumping in this particular rabbit hole... I've been there. The focus on one player, the "everyone should be agreeing with me" attitude... And the only thing that surpasses that is the thing where KCC could be fighting people who want to vote people who weren't KK.
Points where your arguments aren't as strong as I'd like them to be:
You compare this game to Modern. Comparing play in a game where you don't know someone's alignment to the most recent one isn't as telling as you think. It's too small a sample size (and therefore too much room for error) and players play differently between games in the smaller sense. Some things are different, but only the bigger things stay the same. But, given the small sample size, I can't tell what's the big stuff and whats the small stuff.
Quoting myself: "I have been thinking if there's any valid playstyle changeup argument here, and I suppose I'll listen to whatever argument KCC presents on that front, but I am very skeptical that one would go from the monster towngame in Mondern to... this, where we see a lot of shallow-to-nonexistent reads, a lot of staying open and soft-pressure votes, contradictory explainations for behavior (is a vote a push... or not?) and one wagon that looks opportunistic to me in hindsight that she drove straight through to a lynch."
My point here is that while it may be a small sample size, and there may be margins for error, AND we may not be able to tell the "big" and "small" stuff apart as you say, the overall intent and texture behind the things I am seeing is different.
Like, in Modern the intent was pretty clear: Ask questions/comment on scum reads, vote people that she expressed scum reads on when it made sense to do so. In this game... I'm not sure. The approach really does not seem like one designed to actually advance viewpoints, suss out reads, or anything like that.
Ok, that's fine. But why not talk to her about that and see what she says instead of waiting till your case on her is stronger? I mean, sure we don't have a lot of time left, but at least give her the chance to respond before jumping in.
Quote from Killjoy »
You point out that her progression is less clear in this game. Fine, that could be a thing, but also if she's a Cop, then maybe she doesn't need to put in as much effort to solve people D1. She has a cop shot, She can just... know a person's alignment.
I don't buy this argument.
So yes, as a cop you would want to lay low because you don't want to get NK'd. That's true.
However, regardless of your ability are you really trying to argue that a member of the town doesn't need to try to solve the game?
For one thing, here it's a 1-shot cop. Not a full-game cop. You have to figure out where you're aiming your shot and you have to figure out where you're NOT doing that.
Maybe she's doing that all in her head. Maybe. But then I'd expect more of a forceful entry into Day 2 if you're planning to claim. Like, now that she's claimed the "doesn't need to solve" argument is gone, and I don't really see it here D2 either. This is where we get into the "reread" thing.
I will give you this: upon rereading (lol irony) she's being weird towards Last D2 if she's a Cop. 1193 in particular where she would rather lynch you over Last because she doesn't think Last and Vez are gambiting... She actually never really doubts his claim, does she?
Also her reason for voting Last feels like she's voting because she has a reason to instead of because she believes Last is scum
Quote from killjoy »
You then say that she interacts with KK a lot, but asks questions that "aren't trying to solve". Can you tell me some of those questions?
Post 768, which you quoted that KCC votes KK is kinda a gotcha post... It could be a "You did something scummy that I can hang you for and not look bad" but I'm also seeing a possibility of that just being the straw that broke the camels back and it turned from "I was kinda thinking you're scum up to now, but this post is just really scummy. VOTE".
I'm always wary of people accusing others of asking questions that "can't solve" because I get that a lot and I'm almost always town when that happens.
However, 1023 and the following point might be a thing. It feels like an over-doing-it push, and if true that she uses 'reread' in lieu of actual reasons frequently might mean she doesn't actually have any.
If you read all of that and think that it demonstrates appropriate pushing of a scumread, let me know/show me specific posts. we can talk about it. And don't forget what I said in the big posts--her vote was based on the slip, and there was never anything from before that brought into her push. Take that into account when you do this.
Quote from killjoy »
I'll quote KCC poking around later, I need to go.
I will say that I don't hate the Emiko targeting as much as you do. She's hard to read I think due to the language barrier. We're not used to her yet so we don't know how to actually read her. It took a while for Rhand also I think.
Vaimes: I will answer you later as well.
Can't wait to see your findings.
OH. I see what you're saying now. Her first real suspicion of KK is 'Still not liking KK' which is weird.
Re: Emiko, my main issue is that it just isn't how I would play to use a cop shot. I'd rather target somebody who is actively under suspicion, or an actual scumread. Like, a natural choice yesterday would have been Cantrip. Check him, see if anybody jumps on him today, and depending on your result you can get a good idea of alignments.
Emiko check seems like something that wouldn't come into play until D3 or D4 at the earliest, at which point you (meaning kCC because I'm messing up my sentences), one of the stronger players in the game, expect to still be alive and unclaimed?
It's just... very weird. Obviously given that the CC was coming and that KCC was planning to reveal Today, that changes the targeting, but if that's the case I'd STILL rather have targeted somebody with D2 relevance.
I mean, I wouldn't have targeted Emiko. I would have aimed for someone I was scumreading myself. But like I said, Emiko was thoroughly null, which isn't BAD. It's A CHOICE. Not objectively wrong.
Don't downplay your own contributions!
What are you referring to?
Oh, one last question for you here: Based on the original posts as well as our back and forth here, do you think I am town? Scum? Why?
I'm not ready to say that quite yet. I'm gonna say you and KCC probably aren't aligned for this.
Give me a day to let this ruminate, I'll see where that leaves me. I hope she comes in and answers to it too so that we can hear it all from the (not actaully a) horse's mouth.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Just popping in to say I’m sorry it took me so long to realise that I wouldn’t be able to focus on this game with what’s going on in life.
I officially requested replacement.
I simultaneously think the claims are real, but also that one of them has to be fake. They both have +town things going for them. Behaviorally, I think Last is scummier, but I think his claimed role makes more sense than KCC's check/claim.
This is pretty much where I am, too. But I almost always feel like Wisp is behaviorally scummy.
Quote from Vaimes »
Cantrip, one of the reasons I'm trying to nip this scumread of me in the bud is because you are probably my only confident townread right now. I would like to work together on this, because if I start flooding the thread with my Help Me I'm Alone On Town Island thoughts, we're all going to go insane.
I get this, and I really want to just town you and move forward. But. You saw the level of paranoia I had in Modern, and that was with you practically spilling your guts to me in the neighborhood. (Point in case: I feel somewhat indebted to you for not trusting you sooner that game, so I'm sitting here wondering if you're playing on that to pocket me...) I don't think I've seen anything that can't come from town!Vaimes, though, so I guess I'll tentatively proceed with "Don't want to lunch Vaimes" and reassess as new info comes to light.
Quote from Vaimes »
If I take out Cantrip/Emiko/vezok, that leaves three scum in Rhand/Meg/KCC/KJ/Last. I think we should kill Meg or Rhand now, and we might just have to bite the cop bullet toMorrow.
If I reciprocate on the tentative town read, then given that I think it HIGHLY unlikely that KCC and Last are scum together, that would mean there are two scum in Rhand/Meg/KJ, and KJ is WAY low on my list of likely scum. So...I might be ok with this.
@cantrip: i’ll answer one thing now and the rest later: failing to read the room meaning that when there’s one BIG HUGE TOPIC to address you start your post with a bunch of unrelated queries and only get around to looking at it about halfway through.
...taking into account that my standard posting pattern is quoting posts as I catch up and then responding (usually) in chronological order, how does this track?
Quote from Meg »
i think it is VERY POSSIBLE for an informed townie and a 1-shot cop to exist in the same setup, ESPECIALLY with a vig. vig gives a non-lynch way to sniff out and help solve a potential dichotomy.
See, that's where I have a hard time, because I feel like a vig is in essence an information role. Yes, it's offensive in nature, but it boils down to a cop that kills their target (and hence is foiled by doctors rather than roleblockers). So having two one-shot cops AND a 1-shot vig is like having 3x 1-shot cops, and that feels like a LOT (not to mention a lot of overlap).
On the flip side, I still feel like it's pretty ballsy for scum!Wisp to claim a N0 peek coming out of Modern. Yes, there's the possibility of being coached by teammates/deciding to run counter to expectations, but...Wisp was pretty badly burned by locking in claim elements early. Like, quasi-game losing burned.
if he believes that it will pay off then he would do it ?
Well, sure, but that's where my hesitancy comes in: last game he soft claimed elements of his role that meant that his eventual fake claim ended up garnering a lot of suspicion. Does he come off that last game thinking "hey, I should totally fake claim a role that might easily get me in just as much hot water"? It feels unlikely to me.
Cantrip: What has you leaning town KCC AND town Wisp?
I'm having a hard time seeing either of their choices coming from scum. As above, I think it's unlikely that scum!Wisp (especially) comes into this game and fake-claims a N0 peek. That would have to be something like "I'm going to intentionally draw out the cop, unless there IS no cop, in which case, golden". (Again, this almost certainly makes Vez town because of the double risk there.) Plus, I think Vez is on a list of players moderately mislunchable. I would think scum!Wisp faking a peek would pick someone other than Vez.
I don't see why scum!KCC comes into D2 with a fake claim to try and get Wisp lunched. If she pushes hard on the Highlander perspective and we lunch Wisp, then she's going to be on the spot/strongly likely to get lunched the following Day. If she's town, then she has that additional conviction backing her up and that makes more sense to me. Again, high chance that Emiko is town, as if something goes wrong and Emiko flips scum, KCC is outed.
Could they both be town? Without a vig, I'd say probably. With a vig...possibly? If we have any other power in the mix, though, I think it's pretty unlikely, and how likely is a low complexity game to have a "double limited cop + vig and no protective role" town setup?
I am super impressed by Megiddo's case on KCC. I'm not convinced that it's a slam dunk against KCC, but it gives me all kinds of warm fuzzies about Megiddo, especially his conviction and how he's outlining the steps to try and get KJ to similar conclusions. Slight concern that Megiddo chose to pursue this when KCC announced V/LA until practically deadline, but then again, he was asked for it. It also feels a little weird that Megiddo announced a slapfight with KCC and Killjoy self-identified as KCC's second, but that very much fits in with Killjoy's town game if KJ has a strong townread on KCC. Something to reassess if KCC flips scum, I guess.
I feel like we have two primary options in front of us:
Option 1: Decide that it's unlikely that two cops can exist on the town team and lunch one of the cops. Pro:
-- If the one we lunch flips town, we have confirmed town (Vez/Emiko) that complicate scum kill choices. Con:
-- If they're both town, chain lunching the second when the first flips town ends the game for us (barring night actions that mess with scum plans).
Option 2: Decide that the cops are both possibly town and lunch outside the foursquare (Wisp-Vez-KCC-Emiko). Pro:
-- ??? Con:
-- If we later decide that one has to be scum, we have to correctly lunch the right one the first time.
If we lunch outside the foursquare, I think I'd have to go with Rhand. I haven't given him nearly enough scrutiny this game, but he's practically there by default:
Not Wisp, Vez, KCC, or Emiko.
Vaimes may have me successfully pocketed, and I'd definitely like town!him to be around to help sort D3.
Megiddo just towned quite a bit with his case on KCC.
Killjoy has been town for me all game.
That leaves Rhand.
(Also saves Bur from having to find a replacement, as mentioned, but that shouldn't be a primary consideration.)
However, I'm sorta leaning toward Option 1, but I have no idea which way I want to go. I even approached it from the perspective of "who would I rather have townfirmed: Vez or Emiko, but unfortunately, Vez is posting less than I am (!), and I don't get nearly as much from Emiko's posts as I'd like to, so even that angle doesn't give me direction.
I guess so as to not waffle completely...I want to say that if there's a fake claim, it's more likely to come from KCC, claiming from a position of relative safety (vig dead, risks of counter claiming backfiring weighed) than it is to come from Wisp I really wish KCC had taken a stronger stance on Wisp D1. If we lunch one of the docs, I'd probably lean toward KCC over Wisp, but just barely.
I am definitely down for an extension, especially if a Rhand-replacement can be found quickly.
You see people come and go. Someone apparently has hurt themselves and are being taken to emergency room, while the organisers are in panic since they need to find someone to replace the back-up dancers. Luckily, they apparently got someone off the street who knows how to dance. Or that's at least what you heard.
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupCake
Not Voting (7): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer, Vaimes, vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
V/LA: KittyCupCake (22.10.)
With 9 alive, it’s 5 to lynch. Deadline is on October 24th.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Hi everyone, I haven’t read any non-mod posts but it is chris/son time soon so I am just going to dip my toe in briefly. Since we had 12 to start we’re probably looking at 3 and I am going to assume Tom did Tom things and blew Silver’s brains out, classic Tom.
If this is accurate then Vaimes is probably town on the KoolKoal lynch because when town votes itself is when scum have a party and goes “time to let this train wreck itself” and I feel good about this since Tom has already flipped town.
I will also neatly eliminate the scum team of Vezok/KCC/LW because scum very rarely pile on someone, especially someone who turns out to be vanilla and also just judging by this final count none of them were in any jeopardy.
Probably 1 scum in those 3, maybe 2. I feel 2 scum a good starting point in Cantripmancer/Emiko (is this a new person or an alt or someone I just don’t know?) KJ/Meg
Apologies if this is a rehash of common thought already, I'll read actual posts a little later. If anyone has suggestions to cut down my re-read time I'd appreciate that.
Oh dear God in heaven I just saw “one of the docs” in Mancer's post, lol.
Wisp it seems you are gathering a little bit of attention. What did you do to piss everyone off this time?
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Oh, two cops. Uh, I guess if there are two cops we just lynch the one who counter claimed right? I assume they both claimed today with the first one being under pressure?
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
anything else to do Today? i’ll hammer if there’s no objections.
Tom hammered. (of note since I was looking, Emiko also tried to vote here after Tom, but wasn't recorded as the hammer had happened)
I had wanted to explore Cantrip more before we followed through but there wasn't a lot of time and Cantrip's wife had a medical emergency, so he was MIA.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
@cantrip
re: your standard pattern - If I take that into account I'd probably just make fun of you like I did with a guy I used to work with who used to come back from vacation and respond to emails going up chronologically. So he'd respond to the beginning of an email chain, then ten minutes later he'd respond to a later email in that same chain. Then ten minutes after that he'd finally happen upon the end of the email chain where the whole thing was resolved, and he'd realize that he'd wasted a lot of his time (as well as everybody else's).
The point being, just like that guy, you look very silly when you don't take a peek at things holistically before you start to respond.
re: vig as information roles - Have you ever known a game mod to balance a vig as an information role? Do you do that? I haven't, and I'd be curious to know if this is speaking from experience. You're forgetting the aspect of a vig shot where the target is dead, so yes you may learn something important about them, but you can't very well take much advantage of knowing the alignment of a player who's actively posting in the game.
re: wisp claiming - I don't think anybody would suggest that 1-for-1ing with town power on Day One is a smart move. Maybe they would, who knows. so I agree with you that the "drawing out the cop" angle doesn't track too well. This, incidentally, is a major issue I have with the KCC scum world (1-v-1 town power, especially a virtual vanilla that's stronger dead than alive now, still a bad idea on D2). However, consider that we haven't just speedlynched Wisp yet. Keep that in mind. Who have been the real targets Today?
re: these walls - I haven't seen Killjoy's towngame in a long time really. Does he do this often?
re: The road less traveled - Default lynch kind of sucks. Luckily, we have Chris here so we don't have to do that anymore. While Chris is getting caught up, let's talk about Rhand for a second.
This is Vaimes's thoughts on Rhand from earlier today:
I don't think he's broken past his town range, I think a lot of the pressure on him Day 1 came from town, especially in the world where KCC is fakeclaiming. I struggle to come up with a logical scumteam that doesn't have him on it, though that heavily depends on whether the setup supports both Last and KCC. And I think his pushes have been shallow and half-assed.
Do you agree? Are there other things that would suggest he is scum?
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
oh, Killjoy was in Modern. I don't remember doing much with him there except deciding he was town and ignoring him. I'll do some reading of both games. I owe KJ a response to his post up there.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
"Ok, that's fine. But why not talk to her about that and see what she says instead of waiting till your case on her is stronger? I mean, sure we don't have a lot of time left, but at least give her the chance to respond before jumping in."
This is what I was replying to when I said "you started it!" above.
I realize now I think I answered the wrong question. Are you saying here that I should have waited until I could question KCC before posting a case?
She was on V/LA. And not returning until just before deadline. The game was stagnating, and I'll be damned if we fall back to lazy default lynches and lose because of it. KCC wasn't where I started that night but it's where I ended it.
KCC now has a lot to talk about when she does come back, and I'm looking forward to talking to her about it. You'll note I haven't actually voted her, right? I am in fact waiting for her to respond.
(sidenote--if you did actually mean here what I thought you meant this morning, which was "why did you go through all of this back and forth explanation with me before KCC came back," then I will just reiterate that you opened the door to this by defending her.)
I think you have a good spot on 1193, by the way.
"@Meg: Go ISO me and if you're still confused about why I'm defending KCC the way I am, let me know."
I'm going to be honest. After going through your entire Iso I don't see you really talking to or about KCC much, except for a couple of questions early D1, an early townread (including in your T/S post) and then this:
I think that KCC is town here. Her play this game of poking around is EXACTLY how a cop would probably act. Of the two I'd lynch Wisp, but I want it to be said that I don't actually want to lynch between them until we have a full claim going on. I'd like to know the full set up before I decide there's a dichotomy. I can't remember the game, but there were two roleblockers on town and I think we lost because of that in it.
I'm still on town Rhand. My view on him is similar to KCC's view on me. I'm confident I can read him. I think he's town this game.
I actually think Wisp+Vezok is a very real possibility given Vezok's play+positions. She hasn't given Wisp a fair shake, I feel.
My world is kinda at Megs < Wisp(+Vezok?) < Vaimes < Cantrip.
Is this why? You just have... a really strong townread?
You quoted some of the same posts as I did with the votes, but we have radically different interpretations of the contents. KJ: "poking around" Meg: "voting people but not trying to push them / saying that the vote "is the push" alternately"
i'm not really convinced there. But, like I said earlier at this point we may as well just wait.
I have some more for you coming though.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Ok, I'm more or less caught up. Before I go back and respond to anything specific, I'm going to go over where I was coming into Today, because there seems to be a lot of confusion there.
First, I finished my reread like 12 hours after Day started. Anywhere you see "I'm still rereading" replace it with "I'm waiting for Last to claim," I was literally just stalling, because I couldn't post any reads that made sense until then. I was not expecting that to take a week, but there we are
After my reread, I had wanted to Lynch Vez, but I couldn't do that with the unCCed cop check on her. I thought Last was town fake claiming D1, but couldn't exactly explain why I was so sure it was fake, and didn't want to out myself CCing a D1 joke claim.
So, my D2 plan/expectation was:
-poke at Lasts claim
-town Last admits it was fake
-post my reads, case Vez, leave ample clues in my list that Emi is clear in case I'm NKed
I had been town reading Last, it's why I didn't CC early, it caught me a bit off guard when he stuck with it
Oh, two cops. Uh, I guess if there are two cops we just lynch the one who counter claimed right? I assume they both claimed today with the first one being under pressure?
And now that I’ve thought on it some more, I kind of struggle to see KCC CC’ing Last as scum toDay. And she’s forcing a dichotomy, to boot.
Now, I'm not going to debate whether or not I might do this as scum, because I don't know, and it's wine anyway. What I can tell you for a fact, however, is that if I were scum, my objective here wouldn't be some garbage 1 for 1 trade with Last. I'd be hoping to get enough reasonable doubt on us both being town to then go mislynch elsewhere, and then come back to the dichotomy in Lylo when it can't be sorted safely.
And for this reason, the lynch absolutely needs to be between me and Last Today (plus, you know, because 2-cop-checks-in-a-mini/ 5-clear-townies-D2 is nonsense). My preference, of course, is Last first, but if he somehow flips town, then yes, go ahead and lynch me Tomorrow -that'd be the right play, and if I'm putting a 2nd mislynch on my record, at least it'd be as hilarious as the first. I do not mind losing to sketchy setup design.
But if we're not lynching Last Today, then please lynch me and then him Tomorrow when I flip town. No Excuses. I'm fine dying to advance the gamestate, but we're not jumping through hoops to avoid lynching caught scum. This game doesn't have 2 cops any more than Modern had scum using 2 secret redirects to protect a townie from getting killed.
KCC, I know you're on V/LA (until deadline!), but when you have the chance, can you talk about the difference in your perspective on Vezok in 208 and 281?
Back when I played, we would force Vez to claim early because scumVez claims were a hilarious catastrophe and a free lynch. Did that actually just get incorporated into Vez's standard play?
Okay, there's a bit to unpack here. So, I have some pretty vivid memories of playing with Vez, mostly hilarious claiming mistakes. -But now, we just played Modern together, and Vez seems a significantly better player with 5 more years experience. And yeah, Vez did claim early D1 there, but it was actually the right thing to do with that role, so I didn't think anything of it with the rest of her play being so solid. It didn't occur to me until we started discussing it here, that Vez actually might have early claimed in most games over the last 5 years. It kinda makes sense after hearing it, though
So, thats most of the difference there. 208-I didn't believe that someone with over 5 years experience had never seen an organic end to RVS, which would make her reasoning an excuse rather than an explanation. 281- After multiple people explained that Vez often ended RVS with a claim, I realized that makes perfect sense with what I remember of her, and she might be being sincere
KCC then drops vezok and votes ME within the next couple of posts. Look at what happened here. KCC votes for Vezok, reason unstated, has a bit of a back and forth, and then unvotes after a silver post. I'm inferring here that the reason for voting Vezok was to do with Vezok's attitude toward RVS, but the "wait wait wait" and subsequent reasoning doesn't seem great.
Note that there's no unvote here either. But again, Vezok is completely dropped at this point.
It's very rare I'll unvote without having somewhere else I want to vote more. And I wasn't even in a "oh Vez must be town now" space here, it was more "okay, Vez could believe what she said"
No reasoning. I can infer why she voted me, but there's no stated reasoning.
Are you inferring it was for the post you made shortly before that vote? Because that's why
I wasn't expecting other posts to sneak in between there, or I would have quoted your post with my vote
My Vez suspicion was minor in the absolute sense, but it was the most interesting thing I saw at that moment. It's early Day 1
And I didn't push him because I didn't need to. The response from him and others made me not want to go in that direction
When I find someone I want to lynch, you'll definitely know it
So this supports that maybe KCC has had some reasoning all along. But see the line, "I didn't push him because I didn't need to?"
Let's go back to where we started this whole thing. "My vote IS the push."
So within the span of a few posts KCC argues in one case that her vote was not a push, but a different vote WAS the push. This feels like a sidestep response to me, one meant to ward off suspicion rather than a real explanation of logical and consistent behavior.
This can not be serious.
-My vote is Always a push, that's kinda it's job.
I was explaining to Emi here why I didn't push Vez beyond that: Vez responded to my question and others corroborated that she might actually feel that way about RVS. And so I did not push further and moved on
You better be scum, because you should not be confused here
Until EOD, all that she does. The only thing. Is to keep focus on KK:
Lol. "a really solid D1 scum lynch wagon." -Tell me one thing I did on the Az wagon in Modern that wasn't just keeping focus on Az. Because 95% of why I thought Az was scum was his first post of the game, something which I never mentioned until well after he was lynched. I never made a case, or provided reasoning, it was all sniping and wagon manipulation
If anything, KK was a better wagon, it was the same kind of microread, but here I actually lead with it.
In the meantime, I'd like to know what you think of everyone else. And maybe what you believe the scumteam to be.
I think you're Town for taking Emi of the table in your read list.
I think KJ is town, because I'm confident I can still read him until proven otherwise.
I think rhand is scum with Last. He wanted to leave the door open to multiple info roles, and pounced on Emi Today. I know being wrong doesn't mean scum, but it's also exactly what I was expecting scum to do and kinda the point of checking Emi.
I don't think Trip is scum with rhand.
I don't think Vez is gambiting with Last.
So... Meg scum
Which I'll note still fails to provide any reasons I am scum or really many reasons on anybody.
1. -I covered already
2. -I made that post in like 3 minutes on my way into work, it was just a quick response to Vaimes
So far on D2 there's no lookback or introspection on the KK wagon, which she started and made sure to finish. I would think that one might want to look into where one went so awry on that sort of thing.
That's a little pointless with the self vote and all. And I don't think it went awry anyway, that's a scum lynch more often than not
I have been thinking if there's any valid playstyle changeup argument here, and I suppose I'll listen to whatever argument KCC presents on that front, but I am very skeptical that one would go from the monster towngame in Mondern to... this, where we see a lot of shallow-to-nonexistent reads, a lot of staying open and soft-pressure votes, contradictory explainations for behavior (is a vote a push... or not?) and one wagon that looks opportunistic to me in hindsight that she drove straight through to a lynch.
I think you're overstating my Modern play quite a bit, and I'm debating how intentional that is. You do realize in Modern I would have happily plowed through a Chris mislynch D1, and followed it up with a fuwa mislynch, and the one scum lynch I was actually on, the most constructive thing I did was laugh at his posts
KCC's stated reasoning at the time was: "Anyway, I'm just going to share my check now, I realized I'm not going to get much more from holding it now that me/last are the obvious discussion Today. Emi is Town. I wasn't confident I could read her if scum, and if town, I didn't think she'd be NKed, and I think scum might see her as a viable softtarget for mislynch."
I mentioned I think KCC is "too smart" to cop Emi, mostly because of the bolded. Also one other thing, but this is the important part.
Yeah, I rely pretty strongly on microreads, which are really tough across a language barrier. And based on her solid D2 posting, I don't doubt at all she could fool me as scum
But, I can go through my whole process, and then you can tell me why I'm wrong:
Rhand - Nope, possible eventual NK if town, possible PR from post pattern
vezokpiraka - Nope, possible NK from "cop clear"
Cantripmancer - Nope, possible PR from posting
Lastwhisper - Nope, possible NK from cop claim
Vaimes - Nope, possible eventual NK if town
Killjoy - Nope, very easy to read
Megiddo - Nope, possible PR from post pattern
EmikoYuriemoto - Maybe, tough read, likely vanilla if town, unlikely NK
tom - Nope, possible eventual NK if town
silver - Maybe, likely vanilla if town, might be worth it just to avoid more of D1
So, yeah, it was between Emi and Silver, and I think I went the right way there. I'll be happy to debate cop theory further postgame, but I'm confident I made a good choice with my ability
I'm going to take a brief intermission here to show you some posts from Modern Mafia, which I have also reviewed.
here are KCC's non-RVS votes from D1 of Modern Mafia up until the Az wagon. I'll provide some editorial commentary, but a lot of us were in that game and it's easy enough to read back if you want more context.
A combination of the sample PM not being vanilla and my general perception of recent themed games I've seen made me think the game was role madness.
Beeboy?
KCC, rightly, calls out Beeboy's shifting story here. Click through this post and just read until you see the next post I quote here for context; it's not long. Sir Chris comes in and defends against this push by saying that this shifting story business comes from town mindset (liars stick to their story; the truth evolves because memory is imperfect). After some more back and forth, where I want to stress that there's direct questioning of Beeboy and others, KCC posts this:
From this point KCC was a major factor in what I can only call a really solid D1 scum lynch wagon.
End intermission.
So here's what I want you to take away from what I have just shown you.
In Modern mafia, KCC's votes were clear, and it was easy to follow her progression on them. She engaged with her reads both before and after her votes. Just from reading her Iso you can see how her reads evolved over time and how she was reacting to the events of the game to draw conclusions.
In THIS game, KCC's votes are not especially clear. I don't find it easy to follow her progression. She did not engage with reads (in a way that tracks with what I expect from somebody engaging with a scumread). I can't see how, just from the Iso, KCC's mindset and conclusions are evolving.
The last vote to talk about for this exercise is here:
The mindset of this response is absolutely a scumtell. There's no push back, no challenge, no standing up for his read. KK just accepts that his description of rhands play is wrong and defends with that not being a tell.
I can't see this post coming from someone who believes in their read.
Between the post I started this whole thing with ("Still not liking KK") and this post, KCC interacts with KK several times. I'm not going to quote them all again, but as far as I am concerned it is similar to the previous time I did do that--a lot of questions, none of which I would describe as "trying to solve" or anything that would indicate that KCC thinks KK is scum. Skeptical? Maybe. But it doesn't feel like a real set of interactions.
Then we get to this vote. What's interesting here is that NOTHING that KCC has brought up at any point prior to this one "mindset slip" ever comes into the equation. It's this and nothing but this. Seriously, look:
@Anyone pushing a KK counterwagon from this point forward: I'm going to need to see not just why you think they are a better lynch, but why you think they are so much more likely to be scum that it's worth dumping more claims into the thread at this point. Or, why you don't care
This is just the best example. There's literally nothing else.
I'm not going to go through all of Day 2, because this is way too much already, but I do want to note two things of interest:
1. KCC has mentioned a "reread" let's call it 3.5 times, in lieu of providing solid positions.
2. Finally when we do get something, it is this:
In the meantime, I'd like to know what you think of everyone else. And maybe what you believe the scumteam to be.
I think you're Town for taking Emi of the table in your read list.
I think KJ is town, because I'm confident I can still read him until proven otherwise.
I think rhand is scum with Last. He wanted to leave the door open to multiple info roles, and pounced on Emi Today. I know being wrong doesn't mean scum, but it's also exactly what I was expecting scum to do and kinda the point of checking Emi.
I don't think Trip is scum with rhand.
I don't think Vez is gambiting with Last.
So... Meg scum
Which I'll note still fails to provide any reasons I am scum or really many reasons on anybody.
So far on D2 there's no lookback or introspection on the KK wagon, which she started and made sure to finish. I would think that one might want to look into where one went so awry on that sort of thing. No, the Day starts with 100% focus on Last and the claim, and now we're fully embroiled in that discussion.
I have been thinking if there's any valid playstyle changeup argument here, and I suppose I'll listen to whatever argument KCC presents on that front, but I am very skeptical that one would go from the monster towngame in Mondern to... this, where we see a lot of shallow-to-nonexistent reads, a lot of staying open and soft-pressure votes, contradictory explainations for behavior (is a vote a push... or not?) and one wagon that looks opportunistic to me in hindsight that she drove straight through to a lynch.
I'm going to take a brief intermission here to show you some posts from Modern Mafia, which I have also reviewed.
here are KCC's non-RVS votes from D1 of Modern Mafia up until the Az wagon. I'll provide some editorial commentary, but a lot of us were in that game and it's easy enough to read back if you want more context.
A combination of the sample PM not being vanilla and my general perception of recent themed games I've seen made me think the game was role madness.
Beeboy?
KCC, rightly, calls out Beeboy's shifting story here. Click through this post and just read until you see the next post I quote here for context; it's not long. Sir Chris comes in and defends against this push by saying that this shifting story business comes from town mindset (liars stick to their story; the truth evolves because memory is imperfect). After some more back and forth, where I want to stress that there's direct questioning of Beeboy and others, KCC posts this:
From this point KCC was a major factor in what I can only call a really solid D1 scum lynch wagon.
End intermission.
So here's what I want you to take away from what I have just shown you.
In Modern mafia, KCC's votes were clear, and it was easy to follow her progression on them. She engaged with her reads both before and after her votes. Just from reading her Iso you can see how her reads evolved over time and how she was reacting to the events of the game to draw conclusions.
In THIS game, KCC's votes are not especially clear. I don't find it easy to follow her progression. She did not engage with reads (in a way that tracks with what I expect from somebody engaging with a scumread). I can't see how, just from the Iso, KCC's mindset and conclusions are evolving.
The last vote to talk about for this exercise is here:
The mindset of this response is absolutely a scumtell. There's no push back, no challenge, no standing up for his read. KK just accepts that his description of rhands play is wrong and defends with that not being a tell.
I can't see this post coming from someone who believes in their read.
Between the post I started this whole thing with ("Still not liking KK") and this post, KCC interacts with KK several times. I'm not going to quote them all again, but as far as I am concerned it is similar to the previous time I did do that--a lot of questions, none of which I would describe as "trying to solve" or anything that would indicate that KCC thinks KK is scum. Skeptical? Maybe. But it doesn't feel like a real set of interactions.
Then we get to this vote. What's interesting here is that NOTHING that KCC has brought up at any point prior to this one "mindset slip" ever comes into the equation. It's this and nothing but this. Seriously, look:
@Anyone pushing a KK counterwagon from this point forward: I'm going to need to see not just why you think they are a better lynch, but why you think they are so much more likely to be scum that it's worth dumping more claims into the thread at this point. Or, why you don't care
This is just the best example. There's literally nothing else.
I'm not going to go through all of Day 2, because this is way too much already, but I do want to note two things of interest:
1. KCC has mentioned a "reread" let's call it 3.5 times, in lieu of providing solid positions.
2. Finally when we do get something, it is this:
In the meantime, I'd like to know what you think of everyone else. And maybe what you believe the scumteam to be.
I think you're Town for taking Emi of the table in your read list.
I think KJ is town, because I'm confident I can still read him until proven otherwise.
I think rhand is scum with Last. He wanted to leave the door open to multiple info roles, and pounced on Emi Today. I know being wrong doesn't mean scum, but it's also exactly what I was expecting scum to do and kinda the point of checking Emi.
I don't think Trip is scum with rhand.
I don't think Vez is gambiting with Last.
So... Meg scum
Which I'll note still fails to provide any reasons I am scum or really many reasons on anybody.
So far on D2 there's no lookback or introspection on the KK wagon, which she started and made sure to finish. I would think that one might want to look into where one went so awry on that sort of thing. No, the Day starts with 100% focus on Last and the claim, and now we're fully embroiled in that discussion.
I have been thinking if there's any valid playstyle changeup argument here, and I suppose I'll listen to whatever argument KCC presents on that front, but I am very skeptical that one would go from the monster towngame in Mondern to... this, where we see a lot of shallow-to-nonexistent reads, a lot of staying open and soft-pressure votes, contradictory explainations for behavior (is a vote a push... or not?) and one wagon that looks opportunistic to me in hindsight that she drove straight through to a lynch.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
yes because of that and the strength of defense later .
I am confused by Killjoy's really strong defense here. It's like I'm arguing with her lawyer?
I feel like I stole that line from Chris or somebody from the last game but I don't care.
See below:
Quoting myself: "I have been thinking if there's any valid playstyle changeup argument here, and I suppose I'll listen to whatever argument KCC presents on that front, but I am very skeptical that one would go from the monster towngame in Mondern to... this, where we see a lot of shallow-to-nonexistent reads, a lot of staying open and soft-pressure votes, contradictory explainations for behavior (is a vote a push... or not?) and one wagon that looks opportunistic to me in hindsight that she drove straight through to a lynch."
My point here is that while it may be a small sample size, and there may be margins for error, AND we may not be able to tell the "big" and "small" stuff apart as you say, the overall intent and texture behind the things I am seeing is different.
Like, in Modern the intent was pretty clear: Ask questions/comment on scum reads, vote people that she expressed scum reads on when it made sense to do so. In this game... I'm not sure. The approach really does not seem like one designed to actually advance viewpoints, suss out reads, or anything like that.
I don't buy this argument.
So yes, as a cop you would want to lay low because you don't want to get NK'd. That's true.
However, regardless of your ability are you really trying to argue that a member of the town doesn't need to try to solve the game?
For one thing, here it's a 1-shot cop. Not a full-game cop. You have to figure out where you're aiming your shot and you have to figure out where you're NOT doing that.
Maybe she's doing that all in her head. Maybe. But then I'd expect more of a forceful entry into Day 2 if you're planning to claim. Like, now that she's claimed the "doesn't need to solve" argument is gone, and I don't really see it here D2 either. This is where we get into the "reread" thing.
I've quoted enough posts on this, so you can do your own research:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?by-author=KittyCupCake&page=5&search-thread-id=814379
Click that link. Control + F "still not" and read (scroll upwards for chronological order) until the KK vote, which is on Pg. 4.
This is largely a tone read so you have to kind of read them all to get what I mean.
If you read all of that and think that it demonstrates appropriate pushing of a scumread, let me know/show me specific posts. we can talk about it. And don't forget what I said in the big posts--her vote was based on the slip, and there was never anything from before that brought into her push. Take that into account when you do this.
Can't wait to see your findings.
Re: Emiko, my main issue is that it just isn't how I would play to use a cop shot. I'd rather target somebody who is actively under suspicion, or an actual scumread. Like, a natural choice yesterday would have been Cantrip. Check him, see if anybody jumps on him today, and depending on your result you can get a good idea of alignments.
Emiko check seems like something that wouldn't come into play until D3 or D4 at the earliest, at which point you (meaning kCC because I'm messing up my sentences), one of the stronger players in the game, expect to still be alive and unclaimed?
It's just... very weird. Obviously given that the CC was coming and that KCC was planning to reveal Today, that changes the targeting, but if that's the case I'd STILL rather have targeted somebody with D2 relevance.
Don't downplay your own contributions!
Oh, one last question for you here: Based on the original posts as well as our back and forth here, do you think I am town? Scum? Why?
Had you been posting like this consistently, I’d be less worried.
-
Emiko, I am very dumb, but I’ll try to solve your mystery.
And I like the KCC analysis. The Emiko check doesn't seem genuine. Also I laughed when you called KJ her lawyer.
I still think Rhand is scum and the best lunch.
ama.
if you can literally just give me the hyperlink for Rhand ISO i’ll read that while i try to avoid looking at this tragedy. can’t get easily on mobile.
I actually just noticed he technically requested to replace out.
i now want to hear from you why you think Rhand is scum. i actually don’t see it.
Part of me thinks he isn't slick enough as scum to have completely fooled everyone. I think vezok is the only one who suspects him.
When you pointed out how hard he's defending KCC, it made me think for half a second that they're collaborating on posts in scumchat. Especially when I think KCC was (one of) the first to strongly townread KJ. I don't know slash can't be bothered to check if Bur likes having Daychat though, so that statement is completely baseless, it was just a thought that popped up.
I have a feeling I'll be diving into his posts in LyLo and doing a lot of waffling.
I think megs puts forth some good arguments against KCC and I'm not really a fan of KJ's defense. I'd prefer waiting for a replacement for Rhand, but will vote for him if it needs be.
I kinda want to lynch KCC, because lynching between the two cop claims in lylo sounds dangerous and right now I think KCC is the more likely scum than last. I'm also not sold on Cantrip.
vote KCC
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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I voted Vez because I don't believe he believes the comments he made about RVS. I would have voted him earlier, but I wasn't quite done with Vaimes.
@Meg: Here's what I mean by 'poking around'. She votes people that she wants pressure on, then moves on when she sees something else that needs pressure/when the person she's voting satisfies her. And I don't think it's malicious.
@Meg: Here's what I mean by 'poking around'. She votes people that she wants pressure on, then moves on when she sees something else that needs pressure/when the person she's voting satisfies her. And I don't think it's malicious.
*fixed for clarity.
Ok, that's fine. But why not talk to her about that and see what she says instead of waiting till your case on her is stronger? I mean, sure we don't have a lot of time left, but at least give her the chance to respond before jumping in.
I will give you this: upon rereading (lol irony) she's being weird towards Last D2 if she's a Cop. 1193 in particular where she would rather lynch you over Last because she doesn't think Last and Vez are gambiting... She actually never really doubts his claim, does she?
Also her reason for voting Last feels like she's voting because she has a reason to instead of because she believes Last is scum
OH. I see what you're saying now. Her first real suspicion of KK is 'Still not liking KK' which is weird.
I mean, I wouldn't have targeted Emiko. I would have aimed for someone I was scumreading myself. But like I said, Emiko was thoroughly null, which isn't BAD. It's A CHOICE. Not objectively wrong.
What are you referring to?
I'm not ready to say that quite yet. I'm gonna say you and KCC probably aren't aligned for this.
Give me a day to let this ruminate, I'll see where that leaves me. I hope she comes in and answers to it too so that we can hear it all from the (not actaully a) horse's mouth.
you started it!
but yes, at this point best to wait for her to come back so that she can speak for herself.
I officially requested replacement.
my point being... whatever.
let’s just wait.
how long ?
We should either lunch Rhandslot or, hopefully, get an extension in addition to a replacement.
I'm also in favour of an extension.
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I get this, and I really want to just town you and move forward. But. You saw the level of paranoia I had in Modern, and that was with you practically spilling your guts to me in the neighborhood. (Point in case: I feel somewhat indebted to you for not trusting you sooner that game, so I'm sitting here wondering if you're playing on that to pocket me...) I don't think I've seen anything that can't come from town!Vaimes, though, so I guess I'll tentatively proceed with "Don't want to lunch Vaimes" and reassess as new info comes to light.
If I reciprocate on the tentative town read, then given that I think it HIGHLY unlikely that KCC and Last are scum together, that would mean there are two scum in Rhand/Meg/KJ, and KJ is WAY low on my list of likely scum. So...I might be ok with this.
...taking into account that my standard posting pattern is quoting posts as I catch up and then responding (usually) in chronological order, how does this track?
See, that's where I have a hard time, because I feel like a vig is in essence an information role. Yes, it's offensive in nature, but it boils down to a cop that kills their target (and hence is foiled by doctors rather than roleblockers). So having two one-shot cops AND a 1-shot vig is like having 3x 1-shot cops, and that feels like a LOT (not to mention a lot of overlap).
Well, sure, but that's where my hesitancy comes in: last game he soft claimed elements of his role that meant that his eventual fake claim ended up garnering a lot of suspicion. Does he come off that last game thinking "hey, I should totally fake claim a role that might easily get me in just as much hot water"? It feels unlikely to me.
I'm having a hard time seeing either of their choices coming from scum. As above, I think it's unlikely that scum!Wisp (especially) comes into this game and fake-claims a N0 peek. That would have to be something like "I'm going to intentionally draw out the cop, unless there IS no cop, in which case, golden". (Again, this almost certainly makes Vez town because of the double risk there.) Plus, I think Vez is on a list of players moderately mislunchable. I would think scum!Wisp faking a peek would pick someone other than Vez.
I don't see why scum!KCC comes into D2 with a fake claim to try and get Wisp lunched. If she pushes hard on the Highlander perspective and we lunch Wisp, then she's going to be on the spot/strongly likely to get lunched the following Day. If she's town, then she has that additional conviction backing her up and that makes more sense to me. Again, high chance that Emiko is town, as if something goes wrong and Emiko flips scum, KCC is outed.
Could they both be town? Without a vig, I'd say probably. With a vig...possibly? If we have any other power in the mix, though, I think it's pretty unlikely, and how likely is a low complexity game to have a "double limited cop + vig and no protective role" town setup?
I am super impressed by Megiddo's case on KCC. I'm not convinced that it's a slam dunk against KCC, but it gives me all kinds of warm fuzzies about Megiddo, especially his conviction and how he's outlining the steps to try and get KJ to similar conclusions. Slight concern that Megiddo chose to pursue this when KCC announced V/LA until practically deadline, but then again, he was asked for it. It also feels a little weird that Megiddo announced a slapfight with KCC and Killjoy self-identified as KCC's second, but that very much fits in with Killjoy's town game if KJ has a strong townread on KCC. Something to reassess if KCC flips scum, I guess.
I feel like we have two primary options in front of us:
Option 1: Decide that it's unlikely that two cops can exist on the town team and lunch one of the cops.
Pro:
-- If the one we lunch flips town, we have confirmed town (Vez/Emiko) that complicate scum kill choices.
Con:
-- If they're both town, chain lunching the second when the first flips town ends the game for us (barring night actions that mess with scum plans).
Option 2: Decide that the cops are both possibly town and lunch outside the foursquare (Wisp-Vez-KCC-Emiko).
Pro:
-- ???
Con:
-- If we later decide that one has to be scum, we have to correctly lunch the right one the first time.
If we lunch outside the foursquare, I think I'd have to go with Rhand. I haven't given him nearly enough scrutiny this game, but he's practically there by default:
Not Wisp, Vez, KCC, or Emiko.
Vaimes may have me successfully pocketed, and I'd definitely like town!him to be around to help sort D3.
Megiddo just towned quite a bit with his case on KCC.
Killjoy has been town for me all game.
That leaves Rhand.
(Also saves Bur from having to find a replacement, as mentioned, but that shouldn't be a primary consideration.)
However, I'm sorta leaning toward Option 1, but I have no idea which way I want to go. I even approached it from the perspective of "who would I rather have townfirmed: Vez or Emiko, but unfortunately, Vez is posting less than I am (!), and I don't get nearly as much from Emiko's posts as I'd like to, so even that angle doesn't give me direction.
I guess so as to not waffle completely...I want to say that if there's a fake claim, it's more likely to come from KCC, claiming from a position of relative safety (vig dead, risks of counter claiming backfiring weighed) than it is to come from Wisp I really wish KCC had taken a stronger stance on Wisp D1. If we lunch one of the docs, I'd probably lean toward KCC over Wisp, but just barely.
I am definitely down for an extension, especially if a Rhand-replacement can be found quickly.
D2 deadline has been extended with 48 hours. New deadline is on Thursday 24th of October.
You see people come and go. Someone apparently has hurt themselves and are being taken to emergency room, while the organisers are in panic since they need to find someone to replace the back-up dancers. Luckily, they apparently got someone off the street who knows how to dance. Or that's at least what you heard.
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupCake
Not Voting (7): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer, Vaimes, vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
V/LA: KittyCupCake (22.10.)
With 9 alive, it’s 5 to lynch. Deadline is on October 24th.
KoolKoal (7): vezokpiraka, Rhand, KittyCupCake, Lastwhisper, KoolKoal, Vaimes, tomsloger
Megiddo (2): Cantripmancer, Killjoy
Cantripmancer (2): EmikoYuriemoto, Silvercrys3467
If this is accurate then Vaimes is probably town on the KoolKoal lynch because when town votes itself is when scum have a party and goes “time to let this train wreck itself” and I feel good about this since Tom has already flipped town.
I will also neatly eliminate the scum team of Vezok/KCC/LW because scum very rarely pile on someone, especially someone who turns out to be vanilla and also just judging by this final count none of them were in any jeopardy.
Probably 1 scum in those 3, maybe 2. I feel 2 scum a good starting point in Cantripmancer/Emiko (is this a new person or an alt or someone I just don’t know?) KJ/Meg
Apologies if this is a rehash of common thought already, I'll read actual posts a little later. If anyone has suggestions to cut down my re-read time I'd appreciate that.
Oh dear God in heaven I just saw “one of the docs” in Mancer's post, lol.
Wisp it seems you are gathering a little bit of attention. What did you do to piss everyone off this time?
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Also, welcome.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
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2015 - Best Mafia Player
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
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he was forced to fullclaim Today (claimed informed townie); KCC counterclaimed as 1-shot cop (Emiko target)
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
After looking back, i did vote KK after his self vote, but unvoted immediately after because I had put him to L-1.
Then after this (posted when KK was at L-1):
Tom hammered. (of note since I was looking, Emiko also tried to vote here after Tom, but wasn't recorded as the hammer had happened)
I had wanted to explore Cantrip more before we followed through but there wasn't a lot of time and Cantrip's wife had a medical emergency, so he was MIA.
re: your standard pattern - If I take that into account I'd probably just make fun of you like I did with a guy I used to work with who used to come back from vacation and respond to emails going up chronologically. So he'd respond to the beginning of an email chain, then ten minutes later he'd respond to a later email in that same chain. Then ten minutes after that he'd finally happen upon the end of the email chain where the whole thing was resolved, and he'd realize that he'd wasted a lot of his time (as well as everybody else's).
The point being, just like that guy, you look very silly when you don't take a peek at things holistically before you start to respond.
re: vig as information roles - Have you ever known a game mod to balance a vig as an information role? Do you do that? I haven't, and I'd be curious to know if this is speaking from experience. You're forgetting the aspect of a vig shot where the target is dead, so yes you may learn something important about them, but you can't very well take much advantage of knowing the alignment of a player who's actively posting in the game.
re: wisp claiming - I don't think anybody would suggest that 1-for-1ing with town power on Day One is a smart move. Maybe they would, who knows. so I agree with you that the "drawing out the cop" angle doesn't track too well. This, incidentally, is a major issue I have with the KCC scum world (1-v-1 town power, especially a virtual vanilla that's stronger dead than alive now, still a bad idea on D2). However, consider that we haven't just speedlynched Wisp yet. Keep that in mind. Who have been the real targets Today?
re: these walls - I haven't seen Killjoy's towngame in a long time really. Does he do this often?
re: The road less traveled - Default lynch kind of sucks. Luckily, we have Chris here so we don't have to do that anymore. While Chris is getting caught up, let's talk about Rhand for a second.
This is Vaimes's thoughts on Rhand from earlier today:
Do you agree? Are there other things that would suggest he is scum?
"Ok, that's fine. But why not talk to her about that and see what she says instead of waiting till your case on her is stronger? I mean, sure we don't have a lot of time left, but at least give her the chance to respond before jumping in."
This is what I was replying to when I said "you started it!" above.
I realize now I think I answered the wrong question. Are you saying here that I should have waited until I could question KCC before posting a case?
She was on V/LA. And not returning until just before deadline. The game was stagnating, and I'll be damned if we fall back to lazy default lynches and lose because of it. KCC wasn't where I started that night but it's where I ended it.
KCC now has a lot to talk about when she does come back, and I'm looking forward to talking to her about it. You'll note I haven't actually voted her, right? I am in fact waiting for her to respond.
(sidenote--if you did actually mean here what I thought you meant this morning, which was "why did you go through all of this back and forth explanation with me before KCC came back," then I will just reiterate that you opened the door to this by defending her.)
I think you have a good spot on 1193, by the way.
"@Meg: Go ISO me and if you're still confused about why I'm defending KCC the way I am, let me know."
I'm going to be honest. After going through your entire Iso I don't see you really talking to or about KCC much, except for a couple of questions early D1, an early townread (including in your T/S post) and then this: Is this why? You just have... a really strong townread?
You quoted some of the same posts as I did with the votes, but we have radically different interpretations of the contents. KJ: "poking around" Meg: "voting people but not trying to push them / saying that the vote "is the push" alternately"
i'm not really convinced there. But, like I said earlier at this point we may as well just wait.
I have some more for you coming though.
First, I finished my reread like 12 hours after Day started. Anywhere you see "I'm still rereading" replace it with "I'm waiting for Last to claim," I was literally just stalling, because I couldn't post any reads that made sense until then. I was not expecting that to take a week, but there we are
After my reread, I had wanted to Lynch Vez, but I couldn't do that with the unCCed cop check on her. I thought Last was town fake claiming D1, but couldn't exactly explain why I was so sure it was fake, and didn't want to out myself CCing a D1 joke claim.
So, my D2 plan/expectation was:
-poke at Lasts claim
-town Last admits it was fake
-post my reads, case Vez, leave ample clues in my list that Emi is clear in case I'm NKed
I had been town reading Last, it's why I didn't CC early, it caught me a bit off guard when he stuck with it
wisp has worse claim and play .
Now, I'm not going to debate whether or not I might do this as scum, because I don't know, and it's wine anyway. What I can tell you for a fact, however, is that if I were scum, my objective here wouldn't be some garbage 1 for 1 trade with Last. I'd be hoping to get enough reasonable doubt on us both being town to then go mislynch elsewhere, and then come back to the dichotomy in Lylo when it can't be sorted safely.
And for this reason, the lynch absolutely needs to be between me and Last Today (plus, you know, because 2-cop-checks-in-a-mini/ 5-clear-townies-D2 is nonsense). My preference, of course, is Last first, but if he somehow flips town, then yes, go ahead and lynch me Tomorrow -that'd be the right play, and if I'm putting a 2nd mislynch on my record, at least it'd be as hilarious as the first. I do not mind losing to sketchy setup design.
But if we're not lynching Last Today, then please lynch me and then him Tomorrow when I flip town. No Excuses. I'm fine dying to advance the gamestate, but we're not jumping through hoops to avoid lynching caught scum. This game doesn't have 2 cops any more than Modern had scum using 2 secret redirects to protect a townie from getting killed.
Sure, let's see:
Okay, there's a bit to unpack here. So, I have some pretty vivid memories of playing with Vez, mostly hilarious claiming mistakes. -But now, we just played Modern together, and Vez seems a significantly better player with 5 more years experience. And yeah, Vez did claim early D1 there, but it was actually the right thing to do with that role, so I didn't think anything of it with the rest of her play being so solid. It didn't occur to me until we started discussing it here, that Vez actually might have early claimed in most games over the last 5 years. It kinda makes sense after hearing it, though
So, thats most of the difference there. 208-I didn't believe that someone with over 5 years experience had never seen an organic end to RVS, which would make her reasoning an excuse rather than an explanation. 281- After multiple people explained that Vez often ended RVS with a claim, I realized that makes perfect sense with what I remember of her, and she might be being sincere
I had to go check this, because I know I'm not crazy. -And 2 of the 4 posts before this include me talking about KK:
I mean, I know they're not a case or anything, but this is why I said "still"
No, this was pretty serious as soon as I posted it. Sure, I wasn't near ready to lynch over it, but it wasn't random, and it wasn't a joke
Just because the reason isn't in that exact post, doesn't mean it didn't exist:
-This post right before it would have had a vote in it, except I was still busy with Vaimes. Even Vez understood why I voted
It's very rare I'll unvote without having somewhere else I want to vote more. And I wasn't even in a "oh Vez must be town now" space here, it was more "okay, Vez could believe what she said"
Are you inferring it was for the post you made shortly before that vote? Because that's why
I wasn't expecting other posts to sneak in between there, or I would have quoted your post with my vote
This can not be serious.
-My vote is Always a push, that's kinda it's job.
I was explaining to Emi here why I didn't push Vez beyond that: Vez responded to my question and others corroborated that she might actually feel that way about RVS. And so I did not push further and moved on
You better be scum, because you should not be confused here
Lol. "a really solid D1 scum lynch wagon." -Tell me one thing I did on the Az wagon in Modern that wasn't just keeping focus on Az. Because 95% of why I thought Az was scum was his first post of the game, something which I never mentioned until well after he was lynched. I never made a case, or provided reasoning, it was all sniping and wagon manipulation
If anything, KK was a better wagon, it was the same kind of microread, but here I actually lead with it.
1. -I covered already
2. -I made that post in like 3 minutes on my way into work, it was just a quick response to Vaimes
That's a little pointless with the self vote and all. And I don't think it went awry anyway, that's a scum lynch more often than not
Are you saying I should have... not worried about CCing him before lylo? In your opinion, what should I have done here?
I think you're overstating my Modern play quite a bit, and I'm debating how intentional that is. You do realize in Modern I would have happily plowed through a Chris mislynch D1, and followed it up with a fuwa mislynch, and the one scum lynch I was actually on, the most constructive thing I did was laugh at his posts
Yeah, I rely pretty strongly on microreads, which are really tough across a language barrier. And based on her solid D2 posting, I don't doubt at all she could fool me as scum
But, I can go through my whole process, and then you can tell me why I'm wrong:
Rhand - Nope, possible eventual NK if town, possible PR from post pattern
vezokpiraka - Nope, possible NK from "cop clear"
Cantripmancer - Nope, possible PR from posting
Lastwhisper - Nope, possible NK from cop claim
Vaimes - Nope, possible eventual NK if town
Killjoy - Nope, very easy to read
Megiddo - Nope, possible PR from post pattern
EmikoYuriemoto - Maybe, tough read, likely vanilla if town, unlikely NK
tom - Nope, possible eventual NK if town
silver - Maybe, likely vanilla if town, might be worth it just to avoid more of D1
So, yeah, it was between Emi and Silver, and I think I went the right way there. I'll be happy to debate cop theory further postgame, but I'm confident I made a good choice with my ability
Seems like Vaimes actually started it.
Hm.