Vaimes responded pretty well which was the exact point of pushing him. Hes evolved enough its not lock clearing but would say "unlikely scum unless team hes excited about" is Good Enough For Now
Vezok still looks like hes reading a speech he didnt write
Cantrip im sticking with my same method regardless of if i have tmi and know the answer already (lol) and no red flags
Emiko im getting, like, <scum in an alias game playing noob town> which doesnt make sense here but you spend all that time figuring out how to read alias games and you cant just turn off the instincts
I'd have to look but I'm pretty sure I double post with elaboration pretty often as town
I have two wolf games you could look at too I guess. Not sure I've actually double posted elaborations as a wolf before but I'm aware of this so it isn't a reliable tell, etc. and it might be wrong anyway, last one was last year sometime and I don't keep track of my posting patterns that precisely
Thing is I technically "manufacture" most of my posts in most games, not to any real end I just revise and edit them endlessly until it takes me 30-40 minutes to post two sentences sometimes because I write a very long post and then get worried it looks over explainy and edit it down, etc.
Though I guess that's partly because I'm trying to avoid these spurious wolf reads on D1 because they happen in like, 90%+ of games and I'm a bit tired of being pushed for stuff that isn't AI, so I manufacture villager posts instead of just natural posting most of them so maybe there is an end to it
Didn't do that for the first few pages 'cause I wanted to *****post some before the game got serious, guess I won't do that again
Though like, if I manufacture posts I get called out for that (see, Hill House) and if I don't then I get called out for over explainy posts (*cough* shadow *cough*) and being sloppy so like
Guess I'll just do whatever I think is fun and screw the consequences, at least if I get mislunched for not getting emotionally invested I can point to that game as proof that I don't always do it as town
Anyway double posting with corrections is a sign being sloppy, which is a sign of being too emotionally invested again, which is probably a sign I'm town I guess but it's also like
A thing I'm explicitly trying to not do because I don't think I can summon the same kind of energy as a wolf
Think wolf!silver reacts to tom's case by blowing it off because I'd know he's right
But again self awareness makes this an unreliable tell and you basically only have my word that I only get this invested as town
And it's something I'm explicitly trying to fix so like, maybe I'm trying it on as wolf and really nailing it this time (lol)
This post is mostly unfiltered for the record not that anyone should believe that
I could maybe see that you thought it was weird that I gave Vaimes a town read after you mentioned I wasn't trying to solve him but like
it was never a strongly stated read and I said in response to you that I wasn't even trying to read him yet, which you blew off as "bravado" or whatever but I don't see why you think, as a wolf, I would say that and then immediately try to invent reasons for townreading him when I just said I didn't need to
and the rest is pure fanfiction, particularly the part where you believe this is a wolf reaction to your vote
Like, you have played with me before, right? This isn't a different tomsloger from the one who was in Barebones or one of the other games where I voted someone back for voting me with a bad case? Kpaca in Horsemen?
Anyway this is going nowhere and I'm ready to move on when everyone else is
Vaimes responded pretty well which was the exact point of pushing him. Hes evolved enough its not lock clearing but would say "unlikely scum unless team hes excited about" is Good Enough For Now
Vezok still looks like hes reading a speech he didnt write
Cantrip im sticking with my same method regardless of if i have tmi and know the answer already (lol) and no red flags
Emiko im getting, like, <scum in an alias game playing noob town> which doesnt make sense here but you spend all that time figuring out how to read alias games and you cant just turn off the instincts
BTW FTR I'm less bothered by Vaimes nonvote in RVS than I am the number of people putting focus on it.
yeah like
Clearly not a thing that matters. Vaimes responded pretty well to the pressure. Silver TMIed him...
If vez is scum too also TMIing townvaimes theres probably a decent chance the people pushing him are all town and thats why they feel good about opposing
I'm not sure I see TMIing. I'll look into it more later. Lets ignore silver though for a second though. What do you think of Kitty?
Ok I figured out the problem I have with this post: it's that despite not actually scumreading Emiko, you make the point that 'TWTBAW is sometimes jsut a wolf'. I'm having trouble following that train of thought.
I agree that sometimes wolfy folks are just really really wolfy, but if you're not scumreading Emiko... why make the point that really wolfy people can just be wolves? You don't think Emiko is a wolf, so saying that feels out of place. Talk me throgh it.
I'm generally against the idea of people being "too wolfy" to be a wolf; wolves can use it to hide behind as a sort of "refuge in audacity". I simply don't think the mindset Emiko was posting from was all that wolfy to begin with. The action itself, sure, but not the mindset, and I generally hold that to be more important than the action in a vacuum.
That doesn't answer my question. I'm having trouble tracing the mindset of that specific post.
So, you, not scumreading Emiko. Vaimes ponders whether Emiko asking me if there's a mechanical reason for my rvs behavior is twtbaw rolefishing. You respond with "Sometimes twtbaw is just a wolf" about someone about someone you weren't wolfreading. As it stands now, you seem to be trying to convince Vaimes that Emiko might be scum. Which would be weird since you're not wolfreading Emiko.
Hi Silver. Two questions here: Do you think Vaimes kind of... countering your townread of him is alignment indicative of him? And why are you townreading me? I don't recall you saying. I'm pretty sure I made 4 posts as of now and three of them were voting Rhand in RVS for indiscernable reasons and a couple more posts not answering questions about it.
Your posts to Emiko (43 & 45) read solve-y and I think as a wolf you're more likely to appease there than counterattack with "why do you think I did it?"
As far as Vaimes, like, kind of? It's not really something I think he wouldn't do as a wolf, just that the way he went/is going about it feels more villagery than not I guess. We've mostly just been *****posting, don't really think that's AI for him (maybe for me, but the one who would know that best either doesn't recognize that or is a wolf). I'm not really trying to get a hard read on him yet because I don't think I need to; if he's wolf!Vaimes he's posting a lot and he'll lead me to his partners later (or lead me to him from his partners). I'm comfortable not lunching him right now.
Maybe I need some kind of key for my T/S list, heh.
Me/dead town
strong town
town
lean town
neutral
lean wolf
wolf
strong/dead wolf
I was sorting you/tom/emiko/Vaimes within the "lean town" tier.
Thanks for clarifying the tiers.
First thing I noticed is this is a lot more than I asked for. I'm not sure if you jsut misunderstood my question? I thought it was clear. This:
Your posts to Emiko (43 & 45) read solve-y and I think as a wolf you're more likely to appease there than counterattack with "why do you think I did it?"
is what I wanted to know. Why did you include all (I'm including the full t/s list at the end of this post as well btw) of that extra stuff, when answering me and perhaps addressing tom is what was necessary?
Also re: Vaimes: You're... comfortable not lynching him right now? He's the same color as me in your t/s list. You think he's town. Where did lynching him come into play? Expecially when you think he's overall villagery? What?
Killjoy, Emiko mentioned their experience, didn't sound like a complete noob. Even as a noob, though, I wouldn't expect inexperienced scum to put forth a "1 in x/y/z" and then upon cross-examination go "or could be zero". Newer scum from what I've observed are more likely to amp up the possibilities of others being scummy than not unless they're receiving flak. Not a guaranteed read for me, but Emiko's continuing to make ok-ish-to-good posts.
Ok. Based solely on that point though, do you feel a townlean is merited? He said "1 or 0 in x/x/x, so townlean."?
And Emiko's general demeaner feels noobish to me. Maybe they're a few games in but not enough to stop doing the thnigs that noobs still haven't really stopped doing yet.
Also, are you seriously voting Meg for explaining himself? Is that really significant enough for a scumread?
meg: tries to have a conversation with silver, gets interrupted by vaimes twice—and then ignored by silver!
megs is ~fine
Nothing hed even need to fake though
Unlikely aligned with silver or vaimes though
Why not aligned with those two specifically?
Hey Cantrip: You seem to be asking a lot of questions, but I'm not getting the impression that you care much for the answers. Talk to me about who's town this game and why?
tom/silver not aligned btw. Tom has no reason to bus silver right now.
I'm ~mostly on this page, too. Except for the possibility of early uber-distancing scum theatre that results in multiple players saying that one or the other is more likely town but not resulting in a lunch for either Silver or Tom. Reality check me, KJ: totally possible or bad tinfoil?
The reason I say this is because historically tom would not burn his teammate without reason. He basically started all suspicion on silver. Tom would not do that to a buddy. Based on tom's actions alone, this is not theatre.
Silver could be scum without him, sure. And tom could be scum without Silver. That remains to be seen. Never together though.
That said, I'm gonna revisit it later instead of trying to form too much an opinion on that now. There's a lot to unpack there and I wanna give it it's due seperately at some point.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I replaced into this one part way through D1 and caught scum tom off of wagonomics and his scumread of me pretty shortly after his partner flipped and got talked out of lunching him D2
I played this one start to finish and came under fire from Kpaca pretty early
Pretty sure tom is in four of these games too as varying alignments (he was my partner in Ghostbusters, we were both town in Horsemen and Hill House, and he was a wolf in Arkham)
Hill House is like three links under this thread in the forum page so just click that one
Anyway this doesn't prove I'm town because I'm pretty meta aware and probably wouldn't volunteer these if I thought they looked bad so like
Drink the wine at your own risk.
@Emiko: A gimmick or alias is usually a new account being played by someone with a well known meta so they can play in disguise
Think he's saying he thinks you're better at Mafia than you seem to be and not using the literal definition though
And sorry, think I've used both he and she for you, I'll try to remember
Talk to me about KCC? Is there anything other than her vote changes that you think is wolfy (or anything you think isn't wolfy)?
its a game where everyones identities (and therefore meta) are hidden behind alternate (or alias) accounts. Its a lot of pretending to be someone else and signaling people you know best and gaming how themselves people are being.
Think he's saying he thinks you're better at Mafia than you seem to be and not using the literal definition though
i mean thats kinda what i said?
I think it was you that said something about checking her meta and not being able to read spanish? i could easily be seeing "someone whos experience is mostly in a different language"
Ok I figured out the problem I have with this post: it's that despite not actually scumreading Emiko, you make the point that 'TWTBAW is sometimes jsut a wolf'. I'm having trouble following that train of thought.
I agree that sometimes wolfy folks are just really really wolfy, but if you're not scumreading Emiko... why make the point that really wolfy people can just be wolves? You don't think Emiko is a wolf, so saying that feels out of place. Talk me throgh it.
I'm generally against the idea of people being "too wolfy" to be a wolf; wolves can use it to hide behind as a sort of "refuge in audacity". I simply don't think the mindset Emiko was posting from was all that wolfy to begin with. The action itself, sure, but not the mindset, and I generally hold that to be more important than the action in a vacuum.
That doesn't answer my question. I'm having trouble tracing the mindset of that specific post.
So, you, not scumreading Emiko. Vaimes ponders whether Emiko asking me if there's a mechanical reason for my rvs behavior is twtbaw rolefishing. You respond with "Sometimes twtbaw is just a wolf" about someone about someone you weren't wolfreading. As it stands now, you seem to be trying to convince Vaimes that Emiko might be scum. Which would be weird since you're not wolfreading Emiko.
Maybe town tom isn't a crazy idea if you think this too?
I was opining that I don't think TWTBAW is something you should rely on to get good reads and then saying that I didn't think what Emiko said was wolfy anyway
And then verified my suspicion by asking her if they usually claim info early on her homesite
I didn't think it was that hard to understand but maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought
Hi Silver. Two questions here: Do you think Vaimes kind of... countering your townread of him is alignment indicative of him? And why are you townreading me? I don't recall you saying. I'm pretty sure I made 4 posts as of now and three of them were voting Rhand in RVS for indiscernable reasons and a couple more posts not answering questions about it.
Your posts to Emiko (43 & 45) read solve-y and I think as a wolf you're more likely to appease there than counterattack with "why do you think I did it?"
As far as Vaimes, like, kind of? It's not really something I think he wouldn't do as a wolf, just that the way he went/is going about it feels more villagery than not I guess. We've mostly just been *****posting, don't really think that's AI for him (maybe for me, but the one who would know that best either doesn't recognize that or is a wolf). I'm not really trying to get a hard read on him yet because I don't think I need to; if he's wolf!Vaimes he's posting a lot and he'll lead me to his partners later (or lead me to him from his partners). I'm comfortable not lunching him right now.
Maybe I need some kind of key for my T/S list, heh.
Me/dead town
strong town
town
lean town
neutral
lean wolf
wolf
strong/dead wolf
I was sorting you/tom/emiko/Vaimes within the "lean town" tier.
Thanks for clarifying the tiers.
First thing I noticed is this is a lot more than I asked for. I'm not sure if you jsut misunderstood my question? I thought it was clear. This:
Your posts to Emiko (43 & 45) read solve-y and I think as a wolf you're more likely to appease there than counterattack with "why do you think I did it?"
is what I wanted to know. Why did you include all (I'm including the full t/s list at the end of this post as well btw) of that extra stuff, when answering me and perhaps addressing tom is what was necessary?
Also re: Vaimes: You're... comfortable not lynching him right now? He's the same color as me in your t/s list. You think he's town. Where did lynching him come into play? Expecially when you think he's overall villagery? What?
You asked me about both Vaimes and you so I answered you. I thought you and tom and some others were maybe misinterpreting the earlier T/S list I posted and thought I was strongly townreading [anybody] so I clarified. Of course then he went and doubled down on thinking I was scrambling for a reason to town read vaimes or something
Nothing below the first black bar was really "for" you, the next bit was a response to tom and the bottom bit was addressing the whole thread with my updated t/s list I just didn't want to triple post.
Like, that's how you play Mafia yeah? You talk about who you think is a wolf and who you think is a villager, and you tell people what your reads are so they can talk to you about them and take them into consideration
As far as Vaimes, yeah, I have him above null and don't want to lunch him. You don't... you don't ever think about reads as how much you want/whether you want to lunch them? That's like the default way of sorting people for me.
Something about this whole post feels off but I can't explain what
So KJ’s latest post has possible scumtell(s) worth considering?
Can I get a tl;dr on what killjoy does that should be ignored as NAI? I find myself just ignoring his posts right now with all of the talk of how easy a mislybch he is.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Think he's saying he thinks you're better at Mafia than you seem to be and not using the literal definition though
i mean thats kinda what i said?
I think it was you that said something about checking her meta and not being able to read spanish? i could easily be seeing "someone whos experience is mostly in a different language"
Yeah she said she's played on mafialandia and spectated on MU, so I went to check Mafialandia's site meta when that whole "TWTBAW" thing went down and the whole site is in Spanish.
Was kind of cool, actually, didn't know there was a whole community of Spanish-speaking Mafia players. Just couldn't get much out of it.
So KJ’s latest post has possible scumtell(s) worth considering?
Can I get a tl;dr on what killjoy does that should be ignored as NAI? I find myself just ignoring his posts right now with all of the talk of how easy a mislybch he is.
I don't think he has any specific tells, I just didn't like the post
So KJ’s latest post has possible scumtell(s) worth considering?
Can I get a tl;dr on what killjoy does that should be ignored as NAI? I find myself just ignoring his posts right now with all of the talk of how easy a mislybch he is.
@Vaimes: kinda think I want to go this direction, Vote KK
I do not like his “Tom may have dropped down to 75%, but I’m at more like 80%”, that’s awkward enough to look manufactured.
Yeah, maybe
@kj re: Vez: Tom later had a point that I'm keeping in mind, but writing off the early game was the only reason I voted
@kj re:silver/Tom: I understand both of their cases. I don't agree with either, I think they're both based on iffy reasoning and misunderstanding, but I feel like they both mean it.
I replaced into this one part way through D1 and caught scum tom off of wagonomics and his scumread of me pretty shortly after his partner flipped and got talked out of lunching him D2
I played this one start to finish and came under fire from Kpaca pretty early
Pretty sure tom is in four of these games too as varying alignments (he was my partner in Ghostbusters, we were both town in Horsemen and Hill House, and he was a wolf in Arkham)
Hill House is like three links under this thread in the forum page so just click that one
Anyway this doesn't prove I'm town because I'm pretty meta aware and probably wouldn't volunteer these if I thought they looked bad so like
Drink the wine at your own risk.
@Emiko: A gimmick or alias is usually a new account being played by someone with a well known meta so they can play in disguise
Think he's saying he thinks you're better at Mafia than you seem to be and not using the literal definition though
And sorry, think I've used both he and she for you, I'll try to remember
Talk to me about KCC? Is there anything other than her vote changes that you think is wolfy (or anything you think isn't wolfy)?
earlier i said she appeared jumpy . nervous is not quite right . she was defending herself too much .
Thing is I technically "manufacture" most of my posts in most games, not to any real end I just revise and edit them endlessly until it takes me 30-40 minutes to post two sentences sometimes because I write a very long post and then get worried it looks over explainy and edit it down, etc.
This is more how I tend to think of you, so I guess I'll have to do a meta dive and see if you double-post-clarify regardless of alignment. I'm bad at following through on my meta-dive desires, though, so pressure me if I take too long.
Quote from Silver »
Though like, if I manufacture posts I get called out for that (see, Hill House) and if I don't then I get called out for over explainy posts (*cough* shadow *cough*) and being sloppy so like
...he said, in a rather over explainy post.
Quote from Silver »
Think wolf!silver reacts to tom's case by blowing it off because I'd know he's right
But again self awareness makes this an unreliable tell and you basically only have my word that I only get this invested as town
True that self-meta is worth what you pay for it, but...that first line is somewhat convincing. Except, of course, in the world where you and Tom are scum thespians.
First thing I noticed is this is a lot more than I asked for.
First impression was that this is a bad thing to call Silver out on, given that it's Silver and the nature of the quoted post, but it's also pretty Killjoy-centric (the assumption that Silver's post was entirely for KJ's benefit), which I still feel is more indicative of town!KJ.
Killjoy, Emiko mentioned their experience, didn't sound like a complete noob. Even as a noob, though, I wouldn't expect inexperienced scum to put forth a "1 in x/y/z" and then upon cross-examination go "or could be zero". Newer scum from what I've observed are more likely to amp up the possibilities of others being scummy than not unless they're receiving flak. Not a guaranteed read for me, but Emiko's continuing to make ok-ish-to-good posts.
Ok. Based solely on that point though, do you feel a townlean is merited? He said "1 or 0 in x/x/x, so townlean."?
In combination with his subsequent posting, a mild townlean, yes. Original indication was that I liked him for it, and his posts since then have been generally townfeeling.
Quote from Killjoy »
Also, are you seriously voting Meg for explaining himself? Is that really significant enough for a scumread?
No, I'm voting Megiddo primarily for 213 where it sounds like he's trying to explain why he might feel different from previous games, and then 239 where he asks Silver if Silver has any more questions for Megiddo without responding to Silver's 238. In addition, I feel like he's also been egging players on and fluff-posting.
Quote from Killjoy »
Hey Cantrip: You seem to be asking a lot of questions, but I'm not getting the impression that you care much for the answers. Talk to me about who's town this game and why?
I don't see where you're coming from here. I think I've asked maybe two questions where I've either not responded to the answer or just said an equivalent of "ok". Everything else I've followed up on (or my question hasn't been answered).
I also feel like I've been pretty open about my reads: you're feeling like your normal town self, I'm getting good vibes from Emiko, Megiddo and Vez feel off, tinfoil that Tom and Silver are putting on a show (but it's definitely possible they're both town). Everyone else falls mostly in the middle except Kool (see below).
tom/silver not aligned btw. Tom has no reason to bus silver right now.
I'm ~mostly on this page, too. Except for the possibility of early uber-distancing scum theatre that results in multiple players saying that one or the other is more likely town but not resulting in a lunch for either Silver or Tom. Reality check me, KJ: totally possible or bad tinfoil?
The reason I say this is because historically tom would not burn his teammate without reason. He basically started all suspicion on silver. Tom would not do that to a buddy. Based on tom's actions alone, this is not theatre.
Silver could be scum without him, sure. And tom could be scum without Silver. That remains to be seen. Never together though.
You keep saying that Tom wouldn't bus Silver, or burn Silver...I'm saying I think there's a possibility that Tom and Silver set out to produce conflict that's hard to accurately grasp, with the intent of creating a polarization between the two of them without any real jeopardy of either being lunched. In that situation, Tom's not "burning" Silver. You don't think that's a likelihood, though? (You said you'd revisit it later, cool, but I wanted to clarify because it doesn't feel like you're really acknowledging what I'm saying.)
So KJ’s latest post has possible scumtell(s) worth considering?
Can I get a tl;dr on what killjoy does that should be ignored as NAI? I find myself just ignoring his posts right now with all of the talk of how easy a mislybch he is.
I want my vote to stay on Megiddo for now, but I now also support pressure on KoolKoal.
Kool, why are you relying on the general consensus that KJ's mislunch fodder rather than scrutinizing his posts yourself and coming to your own conclusions?
re: voting Megiddo, kind of for the same reasons you are looks like, though I don't think the post you linked was particularly bad just didn't like the earlier stuff when he was evading my questions about his Vaimes read and he hasn't really moved the needle for me since then
@Vaimes: kinda think I want to go this direction, Vote KK
I do not like his “Tom may have dropped down to 75%, but I’m at more like 80%”, that’s awkward enough to look manufactured.
WTF is this post? Last page made me think even more that KK is scum due to his overeplaxining of stuff and that the attack on silver seems malicious and then comes shadow with this vote. It seems just so random and the fact that it's addressed to Vaimes makes this even weirder.
I don't like KK's response to it as I feel it's more indicative of scum to question naked votes, but the vote itself is too egregious to dismiss.
vote shadow
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Kool, why are you relying on the general consensus that KJ's mislunch fodder rather than scrutinizing his posts yourself and coming to your own conclusions?
Just being honest. I noticed I was being lazy and asked for help fixing that.
Given the help I’ve gotten, I’m just going to have to read him seriously and ignore the nagging doubts of not knowing why people dismiss some kj tells and not others.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Vez, you thought KK was scum, you don't like KK's response to Shadow's vote, but you're voting shadow because his vote is "egregious"? How is it egregious? It's not a read I necessarily agree with, but I can believe it's really a read Shadow makes.
Kool, why are you relying on the general consensus that KJ's mislunch fodder rather than scrutinizing his posts yourself and coming to your own conclusions?
Just being honest. I noticed I was being lazy and asked for help fixing that.
Given the help I’ve gotten, I’m just going to have to read him seriously and ignore the nagging doubts of not knowing why people dismiss some kj tells and not others.
I'm wondering why being lazy on him would be where you went rather than reading and suspecting/not suspecting KJ as you would naturally and then allowing players to weigh in on when you're making a read that is unlikely AI for KJ specifically. That approach also gets you the benefit of garnering reads on players who encourage you/warn you away from KJ, once KJ flips.
Your approach doesn't feel lazy; it feels like an excuse to avoid being on record regarding KJ.
So KJ’s latest post has possible scumtell(s) worth considering?
Can I get a tl;dr on what killjoy does that should be ignored as NAI? I find myself just ignoring his posts right now with all of the talk of how easy a mislybch he is.
we actually just had a good discussion about this I can refer you to a little later
I mean, I’m openly admitting to poor play here, so yeah. What you suggest does sound much smarter than what I did.
I feel like, as scum, I could probably have gotten away without mentioning KJ and coasting anyway?
I distinctly remember Megs making me want to tear my hair out when trying to read him as either alignment, so I’m leaving him null until he does something that doesn’t feel like he’s clutching his cards close to his chest or until I can reread him specifically, perhaps when I can look at interactions with someone confirmed.
Emiko seems very surface level in his/her reads. For example, putting KCC and I as top scumspects with no mention of our interactions earlier. I think likely town and extremely likely to mess up if scum anyway.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I forgot the bridge thought in my Emiko read:
Emiko’s reads lead me to believe he/she is genuinely a newer player, therefore extremely likely to mess up as scum.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
WTF is this post? Last page made me think even more that KK is scum due to his overeplaxining of stuff and that the attack on silver seems malicious and then comes shadow with this vote. It seems just so random and the fact that it's addressed to Vaimes makes this even weirder.
I don't like KK's response to it as I feel it's more indicative of scum to question naked votes, but the vote itself is too egregious to dismiss.
Been thinking about the recent vote movements and like
I think tom/KK/KJ could all be wolves but I doubt even two of them are?
Feels like the votes are moving weirdly if tom and a partner were both pushing me
Like KJ waited until after we'd basically spent ourselves and resolved to put it off until later and then tried to start it up again
And if tom had partner backing to control the thread more and a buddy on me with him I think he pushes harder instead of letting go so it isn't tom/KK probably (unless they don't have daychat and tom read the room way better)
I could see like KK/KJ team smelling blood in the water and both going for it but I don't think [team with tom] decides to dogpile me that way? Would explain why KJ didn't want to vote me despite all the shade in his post though
Weird to do as a wolf either way from their position (whether they're aligned or not, I mean) but I could see them misreading the room and trying to get more traction on me if they thought they could
Kind of feels like [megs/KK or KJ/+1 (not tom)] or [KK/KJ/+1 (not tom)] at most of wolves attacking me/backing tom if he's town
But I still don't really believe those were real thoughts tom had about me so like
Megs/tom/+1 works but megs didn't even really intervene just said he was on team tom and, well...
Not taking that opportunity to either distance from tom or help tom push me is ~weird
Think KK's vote/push is the sketchiest other than tom's initial, could see town!KJ thinking I still hadn't answered satisfactorily and wanting the follow up even if there was no wagon traction anymore
So if it's just one and not-tom it's probably him
This has been a post without a satisfying conclusion, still working out what it means exactly
Vaimes responded pretty well which was the exact point of pushing him. Hes evolved enough its not lock clearing but would say "unlikely scum unless team hes excited about" is Good Enough For Now
Vezok still looks like hes reading a speech he didnt write
Cantrip im sticking with my same method regardless of if i have tmi and know the answer already (lol) and no red flags
Emiko im getting, like, <scum in an alias game playing noob town> which doesnt make sense here but you spend all that time figuring out how to read alias games and you cant just turn off the instincts
Probably?
I'd have to look but I'm pretty sure I double post with elaboration pretty often as town
I have two wolf games you could look at too I guess. Not sure I've actually double posted elaborations as a wolf before but I'm aware of this so it isn't a reliable tell, etc. and it might be wrong anyway, last one was last year sometime and I don't keep track of my posting patterns that precisely
Thing is I technically "manufacture" most of my posts in most games, not to any real end I just revise and edit them endlessly until it takes me 30-40 minutes to post two sentences sometimes because I write a very long post and then get worried it looks over explainy and edit it down, etc.
Though I guess that's partly because I'm trying to avoid these spurious wolf reads on D1 because they happen in like, 90%+ of games and I'm a bit tired of being pushed for stuff that isn't AI, so I manufacture villager posts instead of just natural posting most of them so maybe there is an end to it
Didn't do that for the first few pages 'cause I wanted to *****post some before the game got serious, guess I won't do that again
Though like, if I manufacture posts I get called out for that (see, Hill House) and if I don't then I get called out for over explainy posts (*cough* shadow *cough*) and being sloppy so like
Guess I'll just do whatever I think is fun and screw the consequences, at least if I get mislunched for not getting emotionally invested I can point to that game as proof that I don't always do it as town
Anyway double posting with corrections is a sign being sloppy, which is a sign of being too emotionally invested again, which is probably a sign I'm town I guess but it's also like
A thing I'm explicitly trying to not do because I don't think I can summon the same kind of energy as a wolf
Think wolf!silver reacts to tom's case by blowing it off because I'd know he's right
But again self awareness makes this an unreliable tell and you basically only have my word that I only get this invested as town
And it's something I'm explicitly trying to fix so like, maybe I'm trying it on as wolf and really nailing it this time (lol)
This post is mostly unfiltered for the record not that anyone should believe that
I don't believe that, no
I could maybe see that you thought it was weird that I gave Vaimes a town read after you mentioned I wasn't trying to solve him but like
it was never a strongly stated read and I said in response to you that I wasn't even trying to read him yet, which you blew off as "bravado" or whatever but I don't see why you think, as a wolf, I would say that and then immediately try to invent reasons for townreading him when I just said I didn't need to
and the rest is pure fanfiction, particularly the part where you believe this is a wolf reaction to your vote
Like, you have played with me before, right? This isn't a different tomsloger from the one who was in Barebones or one of the other games where I voted someone back for voting me with a bad case? Kpaca in Horsemen?
Anyway this is going nowhere and I'm ready to move on when everyone else is
vote: megiddo
unvote
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changes of vote :
kittycake from vaimes to vezok : did not discuss before vote , reason minor for change .
vezok to koolkoal : vezok has few posts , does not appear be wolfy change .
tomsloger from vaimes to silvercrys : natural after discussion between tomsloger and silvercrys . probably okay change on vaimes .
silvercrys from kittycake to tomsloger : i think that silver has belief in what he says about tomsloger and the read of tomsloger .
cantripman to megiddo : real read on megiddo .
kittycake from vezok to megiddo : kittycake does not push the players for that she votes .
vote kittycake
koolkoal to silvercrys : this appears to be wolf voting for an easy target .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
@silvercrys : i am a woman .
@cantripman : post 345 is very hard to read .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
impresion of state of game :
silvercrys and vaimes appear village .
shadowlance could be village .
cantripman and vezok appear okay for now .
killjoy could be okay .
rhand does not exist .
megiddo interactions are bad . there is not much else to see .
tomsloger is a mix of good and bad .
koolkoal has a lot of wolf posts and interactions .
kittycake appears wolf for votes and interactions .
what is an alias game ?
I do not like his “Tom may have dropped down to 75%, but I’m at more like 80%”, that’s awkward enough to look manufactured.
Rhand: Do you have any opinion on the tom/Silver backa nd forth?
Also, talk about Vaimes. Like, when you think Vaimes this game, what comes to mind?
I'm not sure I see TMIing. I'll look into it more later. Lets ignore silver though for a second though. What do you think of Kitty?
Fair. Do you have other reasons to beleive vez is scum besides that, or is that the only one?
@Vez: Do you think this is scum!KCC targeting you?
That doesn't answer my question. I'm having trouble tracing the mindset of that specific post.
So, you, not scumreading Emiko. Vaimes ponders whether Emiko asking me if there's a mechanical reason for my rvs behavior is twtbaw rolefishing. You respond with "Sometimes twtbaw is just a wolf" about someone about someone you weren't wolfreading. As it stands now, you seem to be trying to convince Vaimes that Emiko might be scum. Which would be weird since you're not wolfreading Emiko.
Thanks for clarifying the tiers.
First thing I noticed is this is a lot more than I asked for. I'm not sure if you jsut misunderstood my question? I thought it was clear. This: is what I wanted to know. Why did you include all (I'm including the full t/s list at the end of this post as well btw) of that extra stuff, when answering me and perhaps addressing tom is what was necessary?
Also re: Vaimes: You're... comfortable not lynching him right now? He's the same color as me in your t/s list. You think he's town. Where did lynching him come into play? Expecially when you think he's overall villagery? What?
Ok. Based solely on that point though, do you feel a townlean is merited? He said "1 or 0 in x/x/x, so townlean."?
And Emiko's general demeaner feels noobish to me. Maybe they're a few games in but not enough to stop doing the thnigs that noobs still haven't really stopped doing yet.
Also, are you seriously voting Meg for explaining himself? Is that really significant enough for a scumread?
Why not aligned with those two specifically?
Hey Cantrip: You seem to be asking a lot of questions, but I'm not getting the impression that you care much for the answers. Talk to me about who's town this game and why?
You're saying you think tom and Silver are both town? That's spicy. Talk to me about that.
The fact that you're not making it about anything is a little vexing.
So over it.
The reason I say this is because historically tom would not burn his teammate without reason. He basically started all suspicion on silver. Tom would not do that to a buddy. Based on tom's actions alone, this is not theatre.
Silver could be scum without him, sure. And tom could be scum without Silver. That remains to be seen. Never together though.
That said, I'm gonna revisit it later instead of trying to form too much an opinion on that now. There's a lot to unpack there and I wanna give it it's due seperately at some point.
Unreliable Cops
Ghostbusters
I replaced into both but it was pretty early in Unreliable Cops and I played most of the game, got lunched D1
Ghostbusters was a pretty late replace and I almost got lunched the Day after I replaced in but Highroller mistimed his hammer (lol)
Came under fire in both you could compare the reactions I guess
-------------
Here's some town games for comparison
Arkham Horror
I replaced into this one part way through D1 and caught scum tom off of wagonomics and his scumread of me pretty shortly after his partner flipped and got talked out of lunching him D2
Horsemen of the Apocalypse
I played this one start to finish and came under fire from Kpaca pretty early
Pretty sure tom is in four of these games too as varying alignments (he was my partner in Ghostbusters, we were both town in Horsemen and Hill House, and he was a wolf in Arkham)
Hill House is like three links under this thread in the forum page so just click that one
Anyway this doesn't prove I'm town because I'm pretty meta aware and probably wouldn't volunteer these if I thought they looked bad so like
Drink the wine at your own risk.
@Emiko: A gimmick or alias is usually a new account being played by someone with a well known meta so they can play in disguise
Think he's saying he thinks you're better at Mafia than you seem to be and not using the literal definition though
And sorry, think I've used both he and she for you, I'll try to remember
Talk to me about KCC? Is there anything other than her vote changes that you think is wolfy (or anything you think isn't wolfy)?
Like i said, doesnt make sense here lol
whats the bad currently?
I think it was you that said something about checking her meta and not being able to read spanish? i could easily be seeing "someone whos experience is mostly in a different language"
Kj is the first one that made me picture someone rubbing their hands together going "yes, dance poppets dance"
I don’t understand this though.
I was opining that I don't think TWTBAW is something you should rely on to get good reads and then saying that I didn't think what Emiko said was wolfy anyway
And then verified my suspicion by asking her if they usually claim info early on her homesite
I didn't think it was that hard to understand but maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought
You asked me about both Vaimes and you so I answered you. I thought you and tom and some others were maybe misinterpreting the earlier T/S list I posted and thought I was strongly townreading [anybody] so I clarified. Of course then he went and doubled down on thinking I was scrambling for a reason to town read vaimes or something
Nothing below the first black bar was really "for" you, the next bit was a response to tom and the bottom bit was addressing the whole thread with my updated t/s list I just didn't want to triple post.
Like, that's how you play Mafia yeah? You talk about who you think is a wolf and who you think is a villager, and you tell people what your reads are so they can talk to you about them and take them into consideration
As far as Vaimes, yeah, I have him above null and don't want to lunch him. You don't... you don't ever think about reads as how much you want/whether you want to lunch them? That's like the default way of sorting people for me.
Something about this whole post feels off but I can't explain what
it did kind of feel like he was trying to shade me without really getting his hands dirty, yeah
Can I get a tl;dr on what killjoy does that should be ignored as NAI? I find myself just ignoring his posts right now with all of the talk of how easy a mislybch he is.
Was kind of cool, actually, didn't know there was a whole community of Spanish-speaking Mafia players. Just couldn't get much out of it.
I don't think he has any specific tells, I just didn't like the post
Emiko you know jogabenito?
(This statement is less true than it used to be)
My Vez suspicion was minor in the absolute sense, but it was the most interesting thing I saw at that moment. It's early Day 1
And I didn't push him because I didn't need to. The response from him and others made me not want to go in that direction
When I find someone I want to lynch, you'll definitely know it
Yeah, maybe
@kj re: Vez: Tom later had a point that I'm keeping in mind, but writing off the early game was the only reason I voted
@kj re:silver/Tom: I understand both of their cases. I don't agree with either, I think they're both based on iffy reasoning and misunderstanding, but I feel like they both mean it.
earlier i said she appeared jumpy . nervous is not quite right . she was defending herself too much .
it is possible that i know them by a different name .
This is more how I tend to think of you, so I guess I'll have to do a meta dive and see if you double-post-clarify regardless of alignment. I'm bad at following through on my meta-dive desires, though, so pressure me if I take too long.
...he said, in a rather over explainy post.
True that self-meta is worth what you pay for it, but...that first line is somewhat convincing. Except, of course, in the world where you and Tom are scum thespians.
Why are YOU voting Megiddo?
First impression was that this is a bad thing to call Silver out on, given that it's Silver and the nature of the quoted post, but it's also pretty Killjoy-centric (the assumption that Silver's post was entirely for KJ's benefit), which I still feel is more indicative of town!KJ.
In combination with his subsequent posting, a mild townlean, yes. Original indication was that I liked him for it, and his posts since then have been generally townfeeling.
No, I'm voting Megiddo primarily for 213 where it sounds like he's trying to explain why he might feel different from previous games, and then 239 where he asks Silver if Silver has any more questions for Megiddo without responding to Silver's 238. In addition, I feel like he's also been egging players on and fluff-posting.
I don't see where you're coming from here. I think I've asked maybe two questions where I've either not responded to the answer or just said an equivalent of "ok". Everything else I've followed up on (or my question hasn't been answered).
I also feel like I've been pretty open about my reads: you're feeling like your normal town self, I'm getting good vibes from Emiko, Megiddo and Vez feel off, tinfoil that Tom and Silver are putting on a show (but it's definitely possible they're both town). Everyone else falls mostly in the middle except Kool (see below).
You keep saying that Tom wouldn't bus Silver, or burn Silver...I'm saying I think there's a possibility that Tom and Silver set out to produce conflict that's hard to accurately grasp, with the intent of creating a polarization between the two of them without any real jeopardy of either being lunched. In that situation, Tom's not "burning" Silver. You don't think that's a likelihood, though? (You said you'd revisit it later, cool, but I wanted to clarify because it doesn't feel like you're really acknowledging what I'm saying.)
I want my vote to stay on Megiddo for now, but I now also support pressure on KoolKoal.
Kool, why are you relying on the general consensus that KJ's mislunch fodder rather than scrutinizing his posts yourself and coming to your own conclusions?
Emiko: Sorry for 345 and (probably) now 374. That's...how I play the game. :/
but your vote is there still .
re: voting Megiddo, kind of for the same reasons you are looks like, though I don't think the post you linked was particularly bad just didn't like the earlier stuff when he was evading my questions about his Vaimes read and he hasn't really moved the needle for me since then
it is not now .
WTF is this post? Last page made me think even more that KK is scum due to his overeplaxining of stuff and that the attack on silver seems malicious and then comes shadow with this vote. It seems just so random and the fact that it's addressed to Vaimes makes this even weirder.
I don't like KK's response to it as I feel it's more indicative of scum to question naked votes, but the vote itself is too egregious to dismiss.
vote shadow
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Given the help I’ve gotten, I’m just going to have to read him seriously and ignore the nagging doubts of not knowing why people dismiss some kj tells and not others.
Instead of trying to push me/tom in one direction or the other he's watching other people's reactions to it
Wouldn't call it a town lean but he's northish of null somewhere
What do YOU think of KK's 367/369?
Your approach doesn't feel lazy; it feels like an excuse to avoid being on record regarding KJ.
What are your reads on Megiddo and Emiko?
Yeah, I believe that half my job here is to make sure I can be read and understood
I feel like, as scum, I could probably have gotten away without mentioning KJ and coasting anyway?
I distinctly remember Megs making me want to tear my hair out when trying to read him as either alignment, so I’m leaving him null until he does something that doesn’t feel like he’s clutching his cards close to his chest or until I can reread him specifically, perhaps when I can look at interactions with someone confirmed.
Emiko seems very surface level in his/her reads. For example, putting KCC and I as top scumspects with no mention of our interactions earlier. I think likely town and extremely likely to mess up if scum anyway.
Emiko’s reads lead me to believe he/she is genuinely a newer player, therefore extremely likely to mess up as scum.
Oh, did you mean that I'm not pushing Meg? -He hasn't posted since my vote
Im gonna bookmark this and get back to you in a bit
Do not discuss ongoing games, even if you are dead in those games. Thank you.
I'll do a new vote count once I wake up.
I'm guessing it's probably coming, but in case it isn't: can we please have a votecount?
Sorry, Bur.
Been thinking about the recent vote movements and like
I think tom/KK/KJ could all be wolves but I doubt even two of them are?
Feels like the votes are moving weirdly if tom and a partner were both pushing me
Like KJ waited until after we'd basically spent ourselves and resolved to put it off until later and then tried to start it up again
And if tom had partner backing to control the thread more and a buddy on me with him I think he pushes harder instead of letting go so it isn't tom/KK probably (unless they don't have daychat and tom read the room way better)
I could see like KK/KJ team smelling blood in the water and both going for it but I don't think [team with tom] decides to dogpile me that way? Would explain why KJ didn't want to vote me despite all the shade in his post though
Weird to do as a wolf either way from their position (whether they're aligned or not, I mean) but I could see them misreading the room and trying to get more traction on me if they thought they could
Kind of feels like [megs/KK or KJ/+1 (not tom)] or [KK/KJ/+1 (not tom)] at most of wolves attacking me/backing tom if he's town
But I still don't really believe those were real thoughts tom had about me so like
Megs/tom/+1 works but megs didn't even really intervene just said he was on team tom and, well...
Not taking that opportunity to either distance from tom or help tom push me is ~weird
Think KK's vote/push is the sketchiest other than tom's initial, could see town!KJ thinking I still hadn't answered satisfactorily and wanting the follow up even if there was no wagon traction anymore
So if it's just one and not-tom it's probably him
This has been a post without a satisfying conclusion, still working out what it means exactly
Also I can't properly annoy him if he isn't even reading the thread.
Unvote, vote vezok
The shadow vote felt like a pounce.
Trying to think through the implications and it didn't get me very far other than like
Tom > KK > KJ > KK+KJ > [teams with tom and two or more pushing me]
And also maybe not Megs+Tom which was a thing I was thinking might be
Thoughts on any of that?
I'll answer later if a smarter person doesn't beat me to it.