Tell me about emiko theyre the exact sort of player i read for completely irrelevant reasons
I think all my significant thoughts about Emiko are in-thread.
What's your impression on KCC so far?
Vaimes, I want to ask you a question but don't feel like I can yet. Remind me later.
1) you'll never catch me
but like, maybe. I haven't gotten a scumgame in for years so who knows how it will go.
But no, the eyes was because I like that you voted me there. I was sure somebody would, and you did. So that's why you get the eyes.
re: the thing - In the tom/silver THUNDERDOME i'm team tom.
I looked at the ZE OP and I see I replaced out, so I suspect i lurked, made bad posts, and then apologized to the mods and slinked off into the night or something like that.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
That would be equivalent to answering megs' question. I suppose I can't really not though.
I have this habit of getting too invested in games and using stuff I just flatly can't do as a wolf as a shield for my town game.
At this point in my career I'd rather get my first mislunch than make people read post after post of my AtE complaining about how I can't top post as a wolf, but old habits etc.
And I guess now that I've said that, I can say that tom has always had this weird paranoia of my really not that good wolf game when he's town and this isn't that, either.
Last time he made a read like this on me was Barebones and he was a wolf and I nailed him to the floor with it.
do you feel like you're nailing him this time around?
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I think his points are terrible and probably make him a wolf
And I hope if he gets me mislunched you remember that I said that
But no, I don't feel I'm getting much traction on him right now if that's what you mean. That wasn't really what I meant though. Just meant I got a strong and correct early read on wolf tom.
you treated vaimes like you didnt care about his alignment by encouraging him while disagreeing with the premise, i questioned, several of your next few posts were about vaimes being town after the fact. I saw this as attempting to explain away behavior after having been called out.
This is categorically false. I disagreed with his premise and specifically said I thought it wasn't wolfy, as well, I have no idea how you thought I was egging him on to attack Emiko or whatever.
I didn't even register your post as a "callout" that was super weakly phrased if that was what you were trying to do.
I posted about that, and tried to engage you several times on other things because engaging on this is likely useless and i would absolutely love for you to convince me otherwise.
You tried to engage me on exactly 0 things before voting. Zilch, zip, nada. You were either already convinced or you decided I was a good push. Still leaning the latter!
Instead, you pushed back zero levels deep
I'm closer to like, 2 levels deep dude. This isn't some superficial "oh, he voted me so he must be a wolf" this is a mindset -- a wolf mindset -- where you did ~nothing to determine my alignment and saw something you thought was "objectively wolfy" and safe to push and decided to go for it.
You can ignore my postcount all you want, that's fine, but the fact is I. do. not. believe. you.
I do not believe you think this reaction is not within my wheelhouse as town
I do not believe you think I should have tried to hard solve Vaimes at the top of page 2 when we were still transitioning from RVS and before ~half the players had more than one post
I do not believe you think I am reacting to your read at level 0
I do not believe these things about you, and evidence to the contrary they make you a wolf.
1) you literally said "sometimes twtbaw is just a wolf" in response to him asking if it was twtbaw
Like
I have acknowledged you later saying thats your overall opinion. And, as i said, not being at all curious why vaimes thought it was wolfy is the problem there anyway
2) voting you was engaging you before i decided if you were scum
Asking the difference between me and vaimes pushes on you was engaging you before deciding you were scum
Asking why you were applying that particular read to shadow was engaging you before deciding you were scum
3) i have never thought of esoteric pushes on good players as safe. Nor is a safe vote a thing i am looking for regardless of my alignment.
Your read on me is exactly "he voted me so he must be a wolf" and there are no levels to it
I do believe that town silver is more likely to want to talk to someone he thinks is town that thinks something he disagrees with very strongly (there is quite a large gap between twtbaw and not wolfy at all, yes?)
Do you even disagree with that?
I still don't know how to feel about Emiko. There's an eagerness I like, and the focus on KJ is kinda weird for scum unless the specific strategy is "focus on a lurky player > ??? > profit."
The word "later" is doing a lot of work there considering it was in the same post
And I know why he thought it was wolfy, he literally said rolefishing
I don't disagree with your premise at the bottom but your characterization of that post is... wrong
Or like, not even wrong maybe
I don't think engaging Vaimes on whether it was wolfy or not would have led to a productive conversation with him
We would have ended up having a conversation about what is objectively wolfy if he even bothered to respond and I seriously doubt anything AI would have come out of it. Regardless of his alignment he can just say Things He Thinks Are True, which is sometimes fine if I'm trying to get into someone's head but like... it's Vaimes.
So yeah if you're accusing me of not caring about Vaimes' alignment, guilty as charged, I already admitted I wasn't trying to solve him and I'm still not
I just don't know why you think that's AI for me
If he's a wolf I'll catch him on D3 or something after he botches his claim like he did in Triggerhappy does something to get caught
If it was someone I didn't know like Emiko you'd maybe have a point but...
I kind of did do it with Emiko when we talked about whether they claim early and if you're a villager you ignored like half of my posts to decide my alignment based on that one thing that I don't even believe you think is really AI for me.
I postpone reading people as town all the time, like usually you?
Nothing about this read is real, it just isn't
-------------
Anyway yeah thunderdome D3 is fine, bit bold of you to assume you'll still be alive by then though
(not implying you're a wolf and therefore won't be NK'd, of course, that would be silly apparently)
Heres my progression, since people like that sort of thing and i know how hard it is to tell what i actually believe from posts
#195 thought exercise, silver vote /#198 named a scum team.
Not super serious though my wording was.
#209 The guilty conscience of silver responding to this as if its some kind of lock scumread when, like, weve met before...
Is the first thing pushing me to believe im right
also lol "This doesn't read like town!tom paranoia of my "eventually good scum game"
"paranoia of good scum game" and "pushing me early day 1" are totally coherent thoughts
#248/249 wondering if i nailed it. But still using if and perhaps
#263/265 working through it a bit more
#267 stretching my incredulity hes town
#275 ok hes just scum
Some point page 6: now id rather just be right than anything
Last 10 town games
secret neighbors - endgamed - won
token power - endgamed - lost
team game 2 - nk n4 - lost
phantom tollbooth - endgamed - won
token 2 - endgamed - won
secret agenin - nk n4 - lost
death in the family - d6 lynch - lost
game of thrones - endgamed - won 5 times
whats up doc - nk n1 - lost
hill house - nk n1 - won
Silver, why does scum!tom come after you first thing on Day 1? What does he hope to accomplish? Is he trying to endgame, or just get rid of a strong player and toss the rest of the game to the wind?
Silver, why does scum!tom come after you first thing on Day 1? What does he hope to accomplish? Is he trying to endgame, or just get rid of a strong player and toss the rest of the game to the wind?
Damn, forgot the last question: if he wants to get rid of you just because you're you, why wouldn't he just NK you?
He probably got his role PM and thought it would be fun to mislunch me
And when he saw me do "thing he thinks is objectively scummy" he decided to go for it
Obviously it would be good for him to get rid of me either way but I don't think the decision to mislunch me vs night kill came from a strictly +ev place if that makes sense
Rhand fun to mislynch
vezokpiraka fun to mislynch
KoolKoal dont know him but seems fun to mislynch
Cantripmancer more fun to keep alive to hedge
shadowlancerx super fun to mislynch
Silvercrys3467 fun to mislynch
Vaimes rarely worth the effort, but very fun to mislynch
Killjoy has been mislynched by scumtom too many times, hes over it
Megiddo fun to mislynch
EmikoYuriemoto new guy
KittyCupCake curious to mislynch
What part of
>push someone else
>specifically highlight your post to say its neutral
Most proves i had already decided to scumread you?
well given you didn't actually push someone else and followed up your "highlighting the post as neutral" with a vote because... I guess I still don't really understand where you were going with that. Supposedly you thought saying it was neutral was calling me out for my Vaimes read and I scrambled to find a reason to town read him or something?
Feels pretty revisionist given I didn't care about Vaimes' alignment and have freely admitted it so why would I be scrambling to cover for that?
Anyway gonna go with "the part where you did that"
Didn't mean you decided to do it at the same instant you saw the post, just that you saw it as something you could push for being "objectively scummy" and decided to go for it when you voted
anything I said to Vaimes was speculation because he asked, I don't actually think scum tom's motives are knowable
you did openly coach a buddy and joke claim lovers with him because you thought it'd be fun, I clearly have no idea how your mind works.
I still don't know how to feel about Emiko. There's an eagerness I like, and the focus on KJ is kinda weird for scum unless the specific strategy is "focus on a lurky player > ??? > profit."
I guess it would kind of match KCC's "new wolf player who was told KJ was an easy target"
But if the whole thread has him lean town and Emiko is just stubbornly persisting in the read I'm not, like... super sure that's a wolf thing
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
idk man that still sounds pretty fake to me. how often have you seen me present a scumread that wasnt narrative-based?
Ftr the narrative was a thought exercise and what made me vote you was going back to that initial post i called "not the towny version but not the scummy version either" and changing my mind that it was the scum version and now ive already moved on to this reaction to my vote just being made up omgus because i called out <like 2/3s of the scumteam>
I write narrative reads all the time dude, it isn't about [the fact that there was a narrative]
The narrative didn't feel natural and I don't think those are real thoughts you had about me
It's not omgus, I don't think you suck I just think you're a wolf
Could be wrong, yeah, but don't think I am
This feels like classic scum ignoring something difficult to argue against (most of tom's FTR) while attacking the part of the case they think is weak. Appearing strong while glossing over an important part of the argument.
I ***** posted with Vaimes some which you apparently took as TMI that he's town because you... thought I was strongly townreading him without trying to solve him
you "cased" me and concluded I was a wolf
I called you out because I was never strongly townreading Vaimes and your "case" felt manufactured to fit the read you wanted
And now I'm a wolf because I thought your case was manufactured and I voted you for it
now either
(1) you're a villager and you... got it wrong then doubled down on it for some reason
Or (2) you're a wolf and I'm right
gonna go with (2), evidence to the contrary
So tom is scum because towntom wouldn't be wrong and would certainly realize he's wrong and would never double down because he would know he's wrong.
I'm feeling pretty comfortable with tom's case here.
vote Silvercrys3467
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Tom's case was built on things that are objectively false, and he twisted them into a narrative to build his case
I never tried to get Vaimes to attack Emiko, I specifically said Emiko wasn't wolfy
He never "called me out", he said it was a "lack of town points" and he supposedly interpreted that as something I would care about correcting and that would send me scrambling to justify a read I never even had
I'm done talking about this. He's either spectacularly wrong or a wolf.
True enough, KCC, I forgot you were already voting Vaimes.
I kind of think he's a villager, though. Could you walk me through the read like I've never played Mafia before? Or is it literally just, you think he was trying to avoid RVS?
@silvercrys3467 @Vaimes what do you think of the other person's alignment ?
I still have a slight town read on him because I don't think he'd jump into the game and poke the bear.
I did kind of think his poking was bait though.
and another one thats almost the same reason but makes it me specific. Yeah thatll look towny
I made this whole post and im not sure whether its a case or just fanfic of silvers internal dialogue if he is scum that doesnt prove anything.
Its technically believable that town silver thinks of himself as a bear and thinks scumvaimes would be scared of poking him. I dont personally believe that to be the case but thats not really relevant. But if silver believes it and townreads vaimes for it and is immediately more interested in...
Uh
Disagree with vaimes premise but still encourage him to go after emiko instead of him
Without having any questions for vaimes because hes town
...
vote silver
This is the case we're talking about, right?
He literally said I encouraged Vaimes to go after Emiko and was treating Vaimes like a villager because I didn't ask him questions and then scrambled to make up reasons to be town reading him because I felt "called out" by his post... that said I didn't get any town points.
That was it, that was the case. That was his reason for voting me.
Now, you don't know the context here, but I'm ~pretty familiar with Vaimes and tom both
And the fact that tom voted me because I wasn't trying to force an interaction with Vaimes on page 2 is not a real thought he had.
Vaimes doesn't respond to being grilled and I already knew why he thought it was TWTBAW -- he literally said it was rolefishing and I don't think debating Vaimes on whether it was really rolefishing or not would have led me anywhere because he would have just said Things He Thinks Are True as both alignments
So I voted him for his fake read. And that's apparently OMGUS now.
I'm not saying he should know I'm town.
I'm saying there is no way he actually believes what he said about me.
Now you can tell me I'm scum flailing because I proved you wrong or whatever, and then I can point you to several games where I flailed as town
But otherwise this is it. I've responded to the case and everything tom has said about it and he's just a wolf, not because he should know I'm a villager, but because there's no way he thought town!me wouldn't do that. I've done it literally to him in games before where I wouldn't read him or try to force interactions with him on D1 because it's basically pointless.
I don't believe that is a real read he had. I just don't.
Question for you: in general, how do you perceive Tom's confidence level as town, and how as scum?
Generally more confident as scum. Why?
I asked this because I read Tom's initial narrative on you in 195 and I just...don't get a lot of confidence. Starts out as I would expect, but then there's that line about whether it's a fanfic or if you're scum, and I just...don't feel like scum!Tom hedges there when attacking town.
I'm not sure I believe that Vez believes what he posted in 145 about RVS votes most often just being cigars.
Vez, I can't point to specifics, but I'm pretty sure I've seen players accurately catch scum from RVS votes/posts. You haven't?
I guess it's possible and I've done it and have seen it done, but it's usually because they falter under some pressure, not just because of RVS.
Then you misunderstand me. I'm pretty positive I've seen scum caught off of one single RVS post (other than for things like voting the mod). Actually, I think *I* got called out on an overexplained RVS post that eventually led to my lunch; might have to track that down. Point is: you have enough experience that it doesn't seem believable that your perspective on RVS is that it's barely above meaningless/not capable of containing alignment indicators. That said, the points brought up about your personal experience may be more of a factor than I'm thinking.
Quote from Vez »
Meggido's playstyle irks me and it's making it hard to read him.
If you or Meg flips scum, >rand chance the two of you are buddies.
I have decided that this day should not be about Tom v silver.
Part of me wants to agree, but the tinfoil theorist in me says not to, and the realist in me says it's already about them, so I'd like your thoughts on them.
Partially. The other part was just wanting to see if you guys kept at each other’s throats. And you did, and I think it’s a waste of time.
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...
*ahem*
So...tinfoil theory time (wow, D1, 7th post, might be a new record for me). Something has felt...off about this you vs. Tom thing. And Tom's talking thunderdomes and you're posturing PotterMort and now I'm wondering if maybe this is some truly excellent theatre and you're both scum.
Tom and Silver, Why do neither of you seem to even be considering this as TvT?
He probably got his role PM and thought it would be fun to mislunch me
And when he saw me do "thing he thinks is objectively scummy" he decided to go for it
Obviously it would be good for him to get rid of me either way but I don't think the decision to mislunch me vs night kill came from a strictly +ev place if that makes sense
IIRC, there've been several posts you've made this game already where you immediately felt the need to clarify your words. I can't recall: is this normal for you?
tom/silver not aligned btw. Tom has no reason to bus silver right now.
I'm ~mostly on this page, too. Except for the possibility of early uber-distancing scum theatre that results in multiple players saying that one or the other is more likely town but not resulting in a lunch for either Silver or Tom. Reality check me, KJ: totally possible or bad tinfoil?
Yes, town and scum can both flail, but I’m pointing out ways I think you’re scum-flailing.
Strawman isn’t exactly the right term. It’s not a full strawman because it is a relevant point you’re making, but the point does not have the weight you seem to think it does.
You keep returning exclusively to his original post and ignoring his elaboration on it. His case is not exclusively contained in the post where he dropped the vote on you, and I think you know that but are attacking a small flaw in his case rather than facing it in its entirety.
Additionally, your point about your read of vaimes assumes you didn’t think up a narrative of reading vaimes less strongly than Tom thought in order to protect yourself. It could be that you were happily vague enough originally to change your tune without being called on it. I think it’s more likely you’re honest here, and it’s just a weak piece of tom’s original case (explaining why you can safely fixate on it), but it’s still a possibility that makes your argument weaker.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Tom's case was built on things that are objectively false, and he twisted them into a narrative to build his case
I never tried to get Vaimes to attack Emiko, I specifically said Emiko wasn't wolfy
He never "called me out", he said it was a "lack of town points" and he supposedly interpreted that as something I would care about correcting and that would send me scrambling to justify a read I never even had
I'm done talking about this. He's either spectacularly wrong or a wolf.
bruh
"Thats not what i meant" and "thats objectively false" are not the same thing.
Youve said you didnt intend "Sometimes TWTBAW is just a wolf." to be about emiko just a general statement but you cant really think my interpretation is impossible
We can delete the word "callout" and just roll with "when it was brought up"
And after it was brought up 3 of the next 30 posts itt were you giving townreads of vaimes (zero before i brought it up)
Thats ******* weird my man. I think thats weird. You dont believe i think thats weird?
And like... this "tom decided to mislynch me" thing.
Its a fun story. Might even be something i would do though i dont think i ever have before
But i dont see any basis for it
@cantrip
Yes ive considered v/v
Several people have said so, and thats statistically most likely anyway.
Might have been my next post anyway before you ninjaed and asked because, like, i should probably talk about something/someone else
Right now im riding a little euphoric "i was right, ive caught him and hes just trying to fight me, and my first strong townread has joined me on the wagon" but, like
Its early day 1
Clearly i dont believe silver is 100% scum.
Probably not even 75%
But i do think hes acting like scum this moment in time
i started out thinking silver was wrong and it was t v. t, but the posts I mentioned nagged at me, and I moved into the “I think this is malicious” camp.
I’m a little more confident that tom’s less than 75% he gave. I’d say 80
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
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but like, maybe. I haven't gotten a scumgame in for years so who knows how it will go.
But no, the eyes was because I like that you voted me there. I was sure somebody would, and you did. So that's why you get the eyes.
re: the thing - In the tom/silver THUNDERDOME i'm team tom.
I looked at the ZE OP and I see I replaced out, so I suspect i lurked, made bad posts, and then apologized to the mods and slinked off into the night or something like that.
And I hope if he gets me mislunched you remember that I said that
But no, I don't feel I'm getting much traction on him right now if that's what you mean. That wasn't really what I meant though. Just meant I got a strong and correct early read on wolf tom.
ok
Unvote, vote shadow
Pick a new topic/theme for Day 1?
*ahem*
Like
I have acknowledged you later saying thats your overall opinion. And, as i said, not being at all curious why vaimes thought it was wolfy is the problem there anyway
2) voting you was engaging you before i decided if you were scum
Asking the difference between me and vaimes pushes on you was engaging you before deciding you were scum
Asking why you were applying that particular read to shadow was engaging you before deciding you were scum
3) i have never thought of esoteric pushes on good players as safe. Nor is a safe vote a thing i am looking for regardless of my alignment.
Your read on me is exactly "he voted me so he must be a wolf" and there are no levels to it
I do believe that town silver is more likely to want to talk to someone he thinks is town that thinks something he disagrees with very strongly (there is quite a large gap between twtbaw and not wolfy at all, yes?)
Do you even disagree with that?
Figure out my buddies ill start im pocketing kk and dont understand why emiko is being townread so easily and i dont like it.
So theyre lock town.
-Meg might be scum
I still don't know how to feel about Emiko. There's an eagerness I like, and the focus on KJ is kinda weird for scum unless the specific strategy is "focus on a lurky player > ??? > profit."
There are a lot of redacted statements happening in this game, but. [redacted] I can say this once shadow gets Involved.
The word "later" is doing a lot of work there considering it was in the same post
And I know why he thought it was wolfy, he literally said rolefishing
I don't disagree with your premise at the bottom but your characterization of that post is... wrong
Or like, not even wrong maybe
I don't think engaging Vaimes on whether it was wolfy or not would have led to a productive conversation with him
We would have ended up having a conversation about what is objectively wolfy if he even bothered to respond and I seriously doubt anything AI would have come out of it. Regardless of his alignment he can just say Things He Thinks Are True, which is sometimes fine if I'm trying to get into someone's head but like... it's Vaimes.
So yeah if you're accusing me of not caring about Vaimes' alignment, guilty as charged, I already admitted I wasn't trying to solve him and I'm still not
I just don't know why you think that's AI for me
If he's a wolf I'll catch him on D3 or something after he
botches his claim like he did in Triggerhappydoes something to get caughtIf it was someone I didn't know like Emiko you'd maybe have a point but...
I kind of did do it with Emiko when we talked about whether they claim early and if you're a villager you ignored like half of my posts to decide my alignment based on that one thing that I don't even believe you think is really AI for me.
I postpone reading people as town all the time, like usually you?
Nothing about this read is real, it just isn't
-------------
Anyway yeah thunderdome D3 is fine, bit bold of you to assume you'll still be alive by then though
(not implying you're a wolf and therefore won't be NK'd, of course, that would be silly apparently)
#195 thought exercise, silver vote /#198 named a scum team.
Not super serious though my wording was.
#209 The guilty conscience of silver responding to this as if its some kind of lock scumread when, like, weve met before...
Is the first thing pushing me to believe im right
"paranoia of good scum game" and "pushing me early day 1" are totally coherent thoughts
#263/265 working through it a bit more
#267 stretching my incredulity hes town
#275 ok hes just scum
Some point page 6: now id rather just be right than anything
@wolves
Leave me alive awooo
secret neighbors - endgamed - won
token power - endgamed - lost
team game 2 - nk n4 - lost
phantom tollbooth - endgamed - won
token 2 - endgamed - won
secret agenin - nk n4 - lost
death in the family - d6 lynch - lost
game of thrones - endgamed - won 5 times
whats up doc - nk n1 - lost
hill house - nk n1 - won
Endgamed 4-1
NKed 1-3
He thinks it would be fun to mislunch me and probably decided to do it as soon as he saw his role PM.
He probably got his role PM and thought it would be fun to mislunch me
And when he saw me do "thing he thinks is objectively scummy" he decided to go for it
Obviously it would be good for him to get rid of me either way but I don't think the decision to mislunch me vs night kill came from a strictly +ev place if that makes sense
I have no doubt whatsoever that tom might think that
If im scum i promise i didnt decide to until i saw the posts that i wanted to push
vezokpiraka fun to mislynch
KoolKoal dont know him but seems fun to mislynch
Cantripmancer more fun to keep alive to hedge
shadowlancerx super fun to mislynch
Silvercrys3467 fun to mislynch
Vaimes rarely worth the effort, but very fun to mislynch
Killjoy has been mislynched by scumtom too many times, hes over it
Megiddo fun to mislynch
EmikoYuriemoto new guy
KittyCupCake curious to mislynch
Though i assume hes over it too
What part of
>push someone else
>specifically highlight your post to say its neutral
Most proves i had already decided to scumread you?
Feels pretty revisionist given I didn't care about Vaimes' alignment and have freely admitted it so why would I be scrambling to cover for that?
Anyway gonna go with "the part where you did that"
Didn't mean you decided to do it at the same instant you saw the post, just that you saw it as something you could push for being "objectively scummy" and decided to go for it when you voted
anything I said to Vaimes was speculation because he asked, I don't actually think scum tom's motives are knowable
you did openly coach a buddy and joke claim lovers with him because you thought it'd be fun, I clearly have no idea how your mind works.
I saw some things in the tom/silver interaction I want to look at more closely and talk about, but it will have to wait for tomorrow. I’m tired.
But if the whole thread has him lean town and Emiko is just stubbornly persisting in the read I'm not, like... super sure that's a wolf thing
I really don't think your vote will affect that
It's happened one time, and it was hilarious
Working up that post AGAIN.
This feels like classic scum ignoring something difficult to argue against (most of tom's FTR) while attacking the part of the case they think is weak. Appearing strong while glossing over an important part of the argument.
Also, "it's not omgus" is very funny. So tom is scum because towntom wouldn't be wrong and would certainly realize he's wrong and would never double down because he would know he's wrong.
I'm feeling pretty comfortable with tom's case here.
vote Silvercrys3467
I never tried to get Vaimes to attack Emiko, I specifically said Emiko wasn't wolfy
He never "called me out", he said it was a "lack of town points" and he supposedly interpreted that as something I would care about correcting and that would send me scrambling to justify a read I never even had
I'm done talking about this. He's either spectacularly wrong or a wolf.
It isn't a straw man those were his literal words
He literally said I encouraged Vaimes to go after Emiko and was treating Vaimes like a villager because I didn't ask him questions and then scrambled to make up reasons to be town reading him because I felt "called out" by his post... that said I didn't get any town points.
That was it, that was the case. That was his reason for voting me.
Now, you don't know the context here, but I'm ~pretty familiar with Vaimes and tom both
And the fact that tom voted me because I wasn't trying to force an interaction with Vaimes on page 2 is not a real thought he had.
Vaimes doesn't respond to being grilled and I already knew why he thought it was TWTBAW -- he literally said it was rolefishing and I don't think debating Vaimes on whether it was really rolefishing or not would have led me anywhere because he would have just said Things He Thinks Are True as both alignments
So I voted him for his fake read. And that's apparently OMGUS now.
I'm not saying he should know I'm town.
I'm saying there is no way he actually believes what he said about me.
Now you can tell me I'm scum flailing because I proved you wrong or whatever, and then I can point you to several games where I flailed as town
But otherwise this is it. I've responded to the case and everything tom has said about it and he's just a wolf, not because he should know I'm a villager, but because there's no way he thought town!me wouldn't do that. I've done it literally to him in games before where I wouldn't read him or try to force interactions with him on D1 because it's basically pointless.
I don't believe that is a real read he had. I just don't.
I feel like it's a bit early to make this observation; I certainly hadn't gotten that feeling.
Probs Friday?
Thanks for weighing in.
Probably, but I have to stop drinking the wine at some point, so... That said, see my concerns below.
I agree with a lot of this, but I also still think Killjoy is likely town.
Then you misunderstand me. I'm pretty positive I've seen scum caught off of one single RVS post (other than for things like voting the mod). Actually, I think *I* got called out on an overexplained RVS post that eventually led to my lunch; might have to track that down. Point is: you have enough experience that it doesn't seem believable that your perspective on RVS is that it's barely above meaningless/not capable of containing alignment indicators. That said, the points brought up about your personal experience may be more of a factor than I'm thinking.
If you or Meg flips scum, >rand chance the two of you are buddies.
Weird, I feel like Megiddo's and D_V's playstyles are more similar. I see Vez as more likely to bulldog/stay the course than either Meg or D_V.
Why won't we have claims and actions to work with later?
1) Why were you sure somebody would vote you/specifically there? 2) Why do you like that I did?
Part of me wants to agree, but the tinfoil theorist in me says not to, and the realist in me says it's already about them, so I'd like your thoughts on them.
So...tinfoil theory time (wow, D1, 7th post, might be a new record for me). Something has felt...off about this you vs. Tom thing. And Tom's talking thunderdomes and you're posturing PotterMort and now I'm wondering if maybe this is some truly excellent theatre and you're both scum.
Tom and Silver, Why do neither of you seem to even be considering this as TvT?
IIRC, there've been several posts you've made this game already where you immediately felt the need to clarify your words. I can't recall: is this normal for you?
Not sure if :tearsofhilarity: or :tearsofsadness: is most appropriate reaction.
I'm ~mostly on this page, too. Except for the possibility of early uber-distancing scum theatre that results in multiple players saying that one or the other is more likely town but not resulting in a lunch for either Silver or Tom. Reality check me, KJ: totally possible or bad tinfoil?
Strawman isn’t exactly the right term. It’s not a full strawman because it is a relevant point you’re making, but the point does not have the weight you seem to think it does.
You keep returning exclusively to his original post and ignoring his elaboration on it. His case is not exclusively contained in the post where he dropped the vote on you, and I think you know that but are attacking a small flaw in his case rather than facing it in its entirety.
Additionally, your point about your read of vaimes assumes you didn’t think up a narrative of reading vaimes less strongly than Tom thought in order to protect yourself. It could be that you were happily vague enough originally to change your tune without being called on it. I think it’s more likely you’re honest here, and it’s just a weak piece of tom’s original case (explaining why you can safely fixate on it), but it’s still a possibility that makes your argument weaker.
"Thats not what i meant" and "thats objectively false" are not the same thing.
Youve said you didnt intend "Sometimes TWTBAW is just a wolf." to be about emiko just a general statement but you cant really think my interpretation is impossible
We can delete the word "callout" and just roll with "when it was brought up"
And after it was brought up 3 of the next 30 posts itt were you giving townreads of vaimes (zero before i brought it up)
Thats ******* weird my man. I think thats weird. You dont believe i think thats weird?
And like... this "tom decided to mislynch me" thing.
Its a fun story. Might even be something i would do though i dont think i ever have before
But i dont see any basis for it
Yes ive considered v/v
Several people have said so, and thats statistically most likely anyway.
Might have been my next post anyway before you ninjaed and asked because, like, i should probably talk about something/someone else
Right now im riding a little euphoric "i was right, ive caught him and hes just trying to fight me, and my first strong townread has joined me on the wagon" but, like
Its early day 1
Clearly i dont believe silver is 100% scum.
Probably not even 75%
But i do think hes acting like scum this moment in time
I’m a little more confident that tom’s less than 75% he gave. I’d say 80