While you are in the backstage, waiting and preparing yourself for the show, you suddenly hear an announcement from intercom:
"We kindly remind all the participants, that this competition is non-political one. Please refrain from making political statements in your songs."
You wonder if something had happened at the stage and pour a glass of wine for you to enjoy.
This day just made me think KK is more scum than ever. Nobody is really pushing anywhere. The scum are probably hoping for CW for KK so they can deflect.
The tom silver debate is still giving me pause. I still think tom is more scum than silver, but it's still weird.
Megs is also not impressing me, but at least his aggression is a a bit townie.
After people finish whatever reading they're doing and post final thoughts on the Day, I definitely want to follow through with this KK lynch. I think we have a good chance of hitting scum here, and running someone else up at this point isn't going to improve those odds at all, but it does make us more likely to out another power role.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
After people finish whatever reading they're doing and post final thoughts on the Day, I definitely want to follow through with this KK lynch. I think we have a good chance of hitting scum here, and running someone else up at this point isn't going to improve those odds at all, but it does make us more likely to out another power role.
Agreed on all points besides being likely to hit scum with my lynch. You’ll just dismiss this as WIFOM until I flip though
I’m not sure enough about anyone for it to be worth pushing for more claims, not without another week added to the deadline. No point in pushing if I don’t know I’ll hit scum.
I’ll give my parting reads sometime tomorrow then self vote if necessary.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
@cantrip i’ll answer the rest when i get home and am on laptop, but for 869, in short, i was writing that post at least in part from memory. the catch stood out to me, but i mostly had memories of how i felt while reading it, not what specifically i was reading. like i said earlier i was reading the thread last night while falling asleep.
in the past hour i have actually gone back and read and even now i barely remember (the catch was a tone thing with the “flippant reply” but... that’s all i’ve got) but THAT reread got me thinking more about KK... so, i’ll do a deeper dive into that later today, along with your other questions.
I can't really argue against this, but it still feels weird to me that you'd emphasize it so much when you didn't remember exactly what it was. But then again, you probably wouldn't want to draw attention to that if you were scum? I'd appreciate the deeper dive on KK, though.
i was reading the game the first couple of days of my trip (it was great thanks for asking) and saw there was traction on a rhand wagon. i voted because i was scumreading him and because we hadn’t as yet really been able to get any real wagons going.
i’d have to look back and see the specific circumstances/posts that prompted me to vote right then, however.
Kind of? You haven't done the iso yet so I can't say how suspicious it is to me, but if e.g. you come out of the iso gunning for megs hard and KK gets lunched and flips wolf then... yeah that'll look pretty bad since I don't think they're wolves together.
I guess if you're a wolf I just told you what not to do, though. C'est la vie.
??? I mean...I haven't drawn any major conclusions from the ISO, but the ISO itself is done. Surprised you didn't have any thoughts on what I had done thus far.
"up to one" - I haven't put any thought into it, no. But somebody's logic is off. shadow's or yours maybe, where you say that "exactly one" would be scummy, because it encourages chain lynching, but "up to one" doesn't—despite there not really being any less chain lynching potential there. I can't ask Shadow but I can ask you: why is "up to one" NOT a scum response?
(side note that silver asked a good question about it being a walkback)
((side note that i don't think anybody asked WHY emiko had that opinion))
I didn't say that saying "exactly one" would be scummy. I said that I would expect scum to be more likely to say "1, maybe more" rather than "1, possibly 0". The former response pushes the likelihood that at least one is scum (hence, on at least a subconscious level, encouraging lunching all three to find the scum among them), while the latter does absolutely nothing (afaict) to further a scum agenda. Show me how "1, possibly 0" furthers Emiko's agenda as scum and I'll reconsider. (Yes, it could have been a walkback, but I didn't get that impression.)
Quote from Megiddo »
235: am I really putting words in somebody else's mouth here tho
No, you're not, mea culpa. "A lot" was also an exaggeration given you've done it twice.
Quote from -Megiddo »
I think the reason I didn't like KK's vote was because he threw in "I'm feeling pretty comfortable with tom's case here." right before voting rather than just relying on his own case. I always get suspicious when I see that sort of thing. Obviously I agreed with who he voted, but I didn't like how he did it.
...I feel like this is exactly opposite of how I generally feel about this kind of situation. Had KK just said "I like Tom's case, vote Silver!" I would have given him the eyebrow. But KK presented several observations that he found questionable (not really a case), then indicated agreement with Tom and voted accordingly. Why do you find that suspicious?
Quote from Megiddo »
(side note: If you want proof that I am using the eyes emoji the way I say I am, go look back in Modern. I did it there when Last made a post that I was interested in (specifically, casing Vaimes RIGHT as I was getting suspicious of him). I liked what I saw, which is the main meaning of EYES to me.)
At first I thought you were talking about this and I was lolconfused, but then I ctrl+f'd your iso for eyes and found this. ...I guess I'll have to take your word for it, because you used "eyes emoji" (the text, not the same emoji you used in this game, so who knows if you meant the same thing), and when I read it while the game was in progress, I thought you were giving Wisp a "shocked/surprised" response (which is what I usually associate with an eyes emoji, not specifically "good" or "bad"). And you didn't actually provide any clarification as to what you meant by it in that thread, so telling me to use it as a contextual comparison is still just lol.
Quote from Megiddo »
i dislike that you wrote much of that post addressed to me, but only certain parts of it were designed to be responded to.
Really? Why? :eyesemoji: (See, that's "shock at something I find weird", not "hey, I like this".)
Re: Cantrip's 875 (asking about my Last and KK progression):
For Last, I honestly don't know. Apparently his push on me was fake. I went from shadow scummy > oh shadow might be a PR > Last replaces in and claims PR > Last posts like scum so I doubt he's trueclaiming > Last admits he lied about his push on me. I'm just not gonna touch that toDay.
So why is he your "dream CFD"?
Quote from Vaimes »
KK is kind of. Neutral read > everyone's talking about how scummy he is > meanwhile, I'm scumreading Rhand > Rhand gets asked to claim > KK wagon suddenly gets more votes almost right after > I'm not townreading 2.5/3 votes, so I side-eye it > now that I think Rhand is town and vezok is town, I don't know lol.
So you had him at neutral/maybe-scum, then thought KK could be a scum!Rhand counterwagon due to timing and the votes on KK, but now you feel better about some of the votes that were on KK so now you're progressing back to maybe scum-KK?
This is a strong enough reason to want a lunch/this is your strongest read/reason as of right now??
Kool, your 956 feels off to me. Knowing that you're town feels like it should be sufficient reason for you to want to push elsewhere. Yes, you might push toward town, but if you just accept your own lunch, then you KNOW you're further from achieving your wincon. So...???
"up to one" - I haven't put any thought into it, no. But somebody's logic is off. shadow's or yours maybe, where you say that "exactly one" would be scummy, because it encourages chain lynching, but "up to one" doesn't—despite there not really being any less chain lynching potential there. I can't ask Shadow but I can ask you: why is "up to one" NOT a scum response?
(side note that silver asked a good question about it being a walkback)
((side note that i don't think anybody asked WHY emiko had that opinion))
I didn't say that saying "exactly one" would be scummy. I said that I would expect scum to be more likely to say "1, maybe more" rather than "1, possibly 0". The former response pushes the likelihood that at least one is scum (hence, on at least a subconscious level, encouraging lunching all three to find the scum among them), while the latter does absolutely nothing (afaict) to further a scum agenda. Show me how "1, possibly 0" furthers Emiko's agenda as scum and I'll reconsider. (Yes, it could have been a walkback, but I didn't get that impression.)
what <combination of alignments> are both of you assuming those 3 names to be for this?
@Cantrip @megs
I can’t recall when specifically I wrote the dream CFD, so shrug.
Yes re: meg scumread. I didn’t really have to read him last game because beeboy was towny, and for me he’s kinda There and saying a lot of words but I’m pretty meh about it.
@Cantrip: I meant that you haven't really come out of it one way or the other yet, just kind of poked at him over stuff that was there. Waiting to see where you go with it but I don't really have any comments about it directly? I don't really disagree with anything you wrote about him but without your conclusions it's only like, half an iso.
what <combination of alignments> are both of you assuming those 3 names to be for this?
@Cantrip @megs
Can you please restate the question?
I mean...original statement by Emiko was "i think vaimes + silvercrys + kittycake has 1 scum", then when Vaimes asked if he meant there was exactly one in that group, Emiko clarified "no sorry up to one". Shadow said he found the second response townie. I agreed with that. My perception of the alignments of the three players in question doesn't enter into this part of the discussion? So I feel like I'm misunderstanding your question.
Yes re: meg scumread. I didn’t really have to read him last game because beeboy was towny, and for me he’s kinda There and saying a lot of words but I’m pretty meh about it.
I feel like that's a pretty weak reason for wanting to lunch someone, and I'm surprised that you don't have any more weighty reasons for wanting to lunch <anyone>, but ok, noted.
@Cantrip: I meant that you haven't really come out of it one way or the other yet, just kind of poked at him over stuff that was there. Waiting to see where you go with it but I don't really have any comments about it directly? I don't really disagree with anything you wrote about him but without your conclusions it's only like, half an iso.
Fair. I don't know where I'm going with it yet. There's some good and some bad, and I need more input.
Working on similar KK review, but there's a lot more posts....
what <combination of alignments> are both of you assuming those 3 names to be for this?
@Cantrip @megs
Can you please restate the question?
I mean...original statement by Emiko was "i think vaimes + silvercrys + kittycake has 1 scum", then when Vaimes asked if he meant there was exactly one in that group, Emiko clarified "no sorry up to one". Shadow said he found the second response townie. I agreed with that. My perception of the alignments of the three players in question doesn't enter into this part of the discussion? So I feel like I'm misunderstanding your question.
ok im just gonna say what im thinking.
Saying "1 or 0" over "1 or more" seems indicative of scum motivation opposite ways if its "3 townies" vs "a partner or two" in the grouping.
And i was thinking about voting you rn and townread megs over how youve both approached this. Even moreso if you never even considered?
what <combination of alignments> are both of you assuming those 3 names to be for this?
@Cantrip @megs
Can you please restate the question?
I mean...original statement by Emiko was "i think vaimes + silvercrys + kittycake has 1 scum", then when Vaimes asked if he meant there was exactly one in that group, Emiko clarified "no sorry up to one". Shadow said he found the second response townie. I agreed with that. My perception of the alignments of the three players in question doesn't enter into this part of the discussion? So I feel like I'm misunderstanding your question.
ok im just gonna say what im thinking.
Saying "1 or 0" over "1 or more" seems indicative of scum motivation opposite ways if its "3 townies" vs "a partner or two" in the grouping.
And i was thinking about voting you rn and townread megs over how youve both approached this. Even moreso if you never even considered?
@Silver: it doesn’t feel like a walk back, but I’ll grant there’s not really much there to say either way.
Popping in to add that I would probably expect scum, when asked to clarify that question, would be more likely to go "1, maybe more" rather than "1, possibly 0". Barring multiple buddies in Vaimes/Silver/KCC, I guess, but I agree with Shadow that it's a townie response and I like Emiko for it.
@canttip: Pushing for multiple claims after a VT claim is poor play.
I don’t need to be alive to win the game, I need the town to lynch the scum.
If I somehow survive or change who gets lynched, I’m still seen as scummy and probably lynched Day 2 unless something else clears me.
Frankly, I don’t think my reads are good enough to make a fuss about staying in the game now that I’m the objectively best lynch (outside of someone being 100% outed scum, which is highly unlikely to happen before deadline)
Pushing my teammates to play poorly just so I can stay in the game seems bad to me.
Again, my tune would be different if the deadline weren’t on the doorstep.
Also, the idea of not playing mafia while rl stuff that’s making me touchy sounds pretty nice. Plus my 3 week trip I’m leaving for on Saturday sounds a lot less stressful without having to keep up with the game.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Why are you drawing that line at multiple partners instead of 1?
I feel like saying "1, maybe more" when there are multiple buddies in the grouping wouldn't even be a thing scum would consider, but having 1 in there would still feel "safe" for scum to say. If there were exactly one buddy in there, I'd feel less like one of the two perspectives would be more likely.
It's been a while since you weighed in on me: What's your read on me currently/what was it before this particular discussion?
@canttip: Pushing for multiple claims after a VT claim is poor play.
I don’t need to be alive to win the game, I need the town to lynch the scum.
If I somehow survive or change who gets lynched, I’m still seen as scummy and probably lynched Day 2 unless something else clears me.
Frankly, I don’t think my reads are good enough to make a fuss about staying in the game now that I’m the objectively best lynch (outside of someone being 100% outed scum, which is highly unlikely to happen before deadline)
Pushing my teammates to play poorly just so I can stay in the game seems bad to me.
Again, my tune would be different if the deadline weren’t on the doorstep.
Also, the idea of not playing mafia while rl stuff that’s making me touchy sounds pretty nice. Plus my 3 week trip I’m leaving for on Saturday sounds a lot less stressful without having to keep up with the game.
Oh, the irony if this gets you townread/not lunched. But if you want out of the game, I'd be fine to stop slogging through your iso. (Not really.)
Why are you drawing that line at multiple partners instead of 1?
I feel like saying "1, maybe more" when there are multiple buddies in the grouping wouldn't even be a thing scum would consider, but having 1 in there would still feel "safe" for scum to say. If there were exactly one buddy in there, I'd feel less like one of the two perspectives would be more likely.
It's been a while since you weighed in on me: What's your read on me currently/what was it before this particular discussion?
I'd feel less like one of the two perspectives would be more likely.
Ok i currently think youre scum which would make silver likely town
vote cantrip
You're...trying to start a counterwagon on me? Hmm. Let's see. My PBPA/iso attempts rarely gain traction/end up swaying people, so you're probably not trying to distract from my Megs scrutiny, and scum!you wouldn't care if I was off tilting at windmills over town!KK. So either you're buddies with KK and just want to try to see if a wagon on me gains any traction, or you're town and have lost your ability to read me. Excellent. I shall look at your interactions with KK while I'm reviewing to see how likely it is that the two of you are aligned.
In the meantime, I'd love to hear why you think I'm scum.
Oh im for sure mislynchable if kk flips scum. Big oof if im wrong there atp
I think you just admitted its an NAI statement from emiko if theres 1 scum in the 3 so you dont actually care about the statement except when you need it to.
Im thinking something along the lines of pocketing emiko, attacking (town) megs.
Chance of just TMI that it was v/v/v but i wouldnt outright clear them all (to be clear this isnt part of why i think it makes you scum just next step if im right)
[b] Meg:[/b] vezokpiraka just called your aggression townie. Given you're trying to be less aggressive, what do you think of that assessment?
at the time i kind of assumed that vezok meant my earlier vaimes posting, which i certainly didn’t mean as aggressive but could reasonably be interpreted that way. if that’s the case then no concerns from my end, but let’s ask:
[b]vezok:[b/] am i correct or are there other reasons you say i am aggressive
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
@cantrip i feel like you dodged my question:
>why is "up to one" NOT a scum response?
before anything else can you answer why “up to one” could NOT have been a scum answer? you say it’s less scummy than “exactly one” but i don’t see why.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I mean sure you can answer. But it was more about asking cantrip and i already spilled what i think of your thoughts there.
I mostly think kk is town, but [would definitely/expect to have to] vote him over a no lynch. Dont think cantrip alignment really moves the needle there
I'd feel less like one of the two perspectives would be more likely.
Ok i currently think youre scum which would make silver likely town
vote cantrip
Okay, hold on, let me see if I have this straight
You think Cantrip is a wolf and is implying that all three of us are town and that therefore "0 to 1" is less wolfy because it's more correct? Or did I misunderstand.
@canttip: Pushing for multiple claims after a VT claim is poor play.
I don’t need to be alive to win the game, I need the town to lynch the scum.
If I somehow survive or change who gets lynched, I’m still seen as scummy and probably lynched Day 2 unless something else clears me.
Frankly, I don’t think my reads are good enough to make a fuss about staying in the game now that I’m the objectively best lynch (outside of someone being 100% outed scum, which is highly unlikely to happen before deadline)
Pushing my teammates to play poorly just so I can stay in the game seems bad to me.
Again, my tune would be different if the deadline weren’t on the doorstep.
Also, the idea of not playing mafia while rl stuff that’s making me touchy sounds pretty nice. Plus my 3 week trip I’m leaving for on Saturday sounds a lot less stressful without having to keep up with the game.
Oh, the irony if this gets you townread/not lunched. But if you want out of the game, I'd be fine to stop slogging through your iso. (Not really.)
I'd feel less like one of the two perspectives would be more likely.
Ok i currently think youre scum which would make silver likely town
vote cantrip
You're...trying to start a counterwagon on me? Hmm. Let's see. My PBPA/iso attempts rarely gain traction/end up swaying people, so you're probably not trying to distract from my Megs scrutiny, and scum!you wouldn't care if I was off tilting at windmills over town!KK. So either you're buddies with KK and just want to try to see if a wagon on me gains any traction, or you're town and have lost your ability to read me. Excellent. I shall look at your interactions with KK while I'm reviewing to see how likely it is that the two of you are aligned.
In the meantime, I'd love to hear why you think I'm scum.
this... is also gross?
basically just a smear/discredit attempt rather than any real response.
I mean sure you can answer. But it was more about asking cantrip and i already spilled what i think of your thoughts there.
I mostly think kk is town, but [would definitely/expect to have to] vote him over a no lynch. Dont think cantrip alignment really moves the needle there
1) the short version is the alignments of <A, B, C> were not relevant to any discussion I had about this topic until now.
Related, may I ask you to explain a little further your thoughts/statements about this earlier regarding the "multiple partners" but as well as "I think you just admitted its an NAI statement from emiko if theres 1 scum in the 3 so you dont actually care about the statement except when you need it to." ?
I'm sort of having trouble following.
2) See above, the KK/Cantrip buddies world makes sense and kind of explains the lack of counterwagon—there already was one on me, led by Cantrip. It just... didn't have a ton of traction. but I've been between 2-4 votes for a lot of the Day. it makes sense that to me that scum would try and make that happen.
if it is cantrip/kk... a lot fits.
i'm going to do some reading to make sure i'm not just chasing ghosts here. but lynching in [KK, cantrip] is what I want to do Today.
vote cantrip
I will vote KK if cantrip wagon doesn't get off the ground.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
@Tom
explain that jump that silver quoted in #985
also your use of "currently", just feels like you are keeping options open
does cantrip being town make silver a wolf again?
@Tom
explain that jump that silver quoted in #985
also your use of "currently", just feels like you are keeping options open
does cantrip being town make silver a wolf again?
did you and silver just skip reading #975?
As for "currently", cantrip asked what my read of him was currently...
But yes of course if im wrong on cantrip id go back to silver scum its the thing making me think he might be town
Cantrip admits its NAI if theres 1 scum in the 3. That doesnt come up at all while he uses it to call emiko town or attack megs. Thus, its a read of convenience rather than a thing hes considering.
Further theory: if cantrip is, in fact, scum this may have been caused by TMI. As stated (quite clearly in 975 i thought which is why that being your question is strange) that isn't why hes scum its a conclusion
"We kindly remind all the participants, that no living animals are allowed on stage. If you need animals as part of the show, please use stuffed animals or humans as replacement."
You hear the next announcement right after the previous one. Weirdly enough, this one woman about to hit the stage just smilies to herself as the hears the announcement...
So my current thoughts on who the lynch should be:
Meg- I'm not sure I believe meg re: he's trying to be less aggressive. The rest of his play still seems very disconnected from each other. Meg recently said to me that he typically posts his thoughts in such a way that he can ISO himself and kind of... relive the game through his eyes. I believe he literally said he uses that in lieu of notes. So, those thoughts should have some sort of notable progression, no?
Actually, I'm ISOing him right now to look for progression, and I'm not seeing much in the way of "thoughts" insofar as there are a lot of sarcastic comments, questions that don't really have any followup, and answering questions posed to him. He also does this thing with Vaimes in the early game where he shades him a bunch but also refuses to scumread him that I don't like. There's also him being ok with KK lynch because of KCC's catch, despite his apparently generally seeming to scumread him (the most recent point he'd made about KK was that he didn't like his vote on silver in 340) but also not being ok with it because arguments make sense and frustration seems real.
I just feel like his whole thing doesn't amount to a cohesive thought process. Like, with the early game stuff with Vaimes... that's kinda the last we hear about Vaimes from his perspective. He highlights suspicous things he's been doing, hasn't mentioned any real townie things he's done, but no longer seems interested in him. He wants to lynch KK for reasons that are not his own, despite the fact that he should reasonably have some of his own. Further, he likes KCC's catch on KK enough to justify a lynch, but doesn't remember what the catch actually was, and doesn't seem interested enough to actually check.
His thoughts just feel... fake... as a whole. The only real one I really saw was about me in 485. Where's more of that? Where's him putting reads together to form a conclusion.
Koolkoal - In contrast, there was a portion of KK's postings that I thought sounded real. In 180 for instance he asks if he always used to scumrad KCC in the past. That's I think something scum don't really think to fake. There was another post or two that sounded like real frustration.
My problems with him involved using some manipulative language (such as calling Silver 'classic scum' in 340, which kind of makes something feel scummier because it's been done so much due to being classic. It should be noted he also votes Silver for tom's case in that post) and believing Rhand is scum disappearing because of pressure (post hoc ergo procter hoc).
Cantrip- I'm not entirely following what's making him scummy. We probably don't have enough time before deadline for this to happen for me. Not really an option.
Given a choice between he and KK, I'd rather the lynch today be Meg. KK at least I can follow his thought process, so he's slightly more likely to be town. And I kinda don't think they're scum together because wagons/counterwagons.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I should clarify re: Meg: when I say I don't buy the less aggressive thing, I mean that I don't think it has a connection with his lack of scum hunting. I fully believe that he realized that his play irratates some people and wants to stop. But he's trying to say that's why he's not actively looking for answers, which I do not believe.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Cantrip admits its NAI if theres 1 scum in the 3. That doesnt come up at all while he uses it to call emiko town or attack megs. Thus, its a read of convenience rather than a thing hes considering.
Further theory: if cantrip is, in fact, scum this may have been caused by TMI. As stated (quite clearly in 975 i thought which is why that being your question is strange) that isn't why hes scum its a conclusion
Yeah, you said that at the end but then I was confused about where the wolf read came from.
Im trying to explain and its not working right apparently. Basically my gut is telling me cantrip doesnt care about the thing hes just using it as a tool. Idk follow the quote chain (between cantrip and megs talking about it) backwards and tell me if you think cantrip looks like a town talking about 5 people whos alignment he doesnt know (those people being emiko, megs, and vaimes/silver/kcc)
Not tryna multiquote it all but copypaste from iso:
Popping in to add that I would probably expect scum, when asked to clarify that question, would be more likely to go "1, maybe more" rather than "1, possibly 0". Barring multiple buddies in Vaimes/Silver/KCC, I guess, but I agree with Shadow that it's a townie response and I like Emiko for it.
Killjoy, Emiko mentioned their experience, didn't sound like a complete noob. Even as a noob, though, I wouldn't expect inexperienced scum to put forth a "1 in x/y/z" and then upon cross-examination go "or could be zero". Newer scum from what I've observed are more likely to amp up the possibilities of others being scummy than not unless they're receiving flak. Not a guaranteed read for me, but Emiko's continuing to make ok-ish-to-good posts.
~~~~~~~~~
I didn't say that saying "exactly one" would be scummy. I said that I would expect scum to be more likely to say "1, maybe more" rather than "1, possibly 0". The former response pushes the likelihood that at least one is scum (hence, on at least a subconscious level, encouraging lunching all three to find the scum among them), while the latter does absolutely nothing (afaict) to further a scum agenda. Show me how "1, possibly 0" furthers Emiko's agenda as scum and I'll reconsider. (Yes, it could have been a walkback, but I didn't get that impression.)
I mean...original statement by Emiko was "i think vaimes + silvercrys + kittycake has 1 scum", then when Vaimes asked if he meant there was exactly one in that group, Emiko clarified "no sorry up to one". Shadow said he found the second response townie. I agreed with that. My perception of the alignments of the three players in question doesn't enter into this part of the discussion? So I feel like I'm misunderstanding your question.
I feel like saying "1, maybe more" when there are multiple buddies in the grouping wouldn't even be a thing scum would consider, but having 1 in there would still feel "safe" for scum to say. If there were exactly one buddy in there, I'd feel less like one of the two perspectives would be more likely.
While you are in the backstage, waiting and preparing yourself for the show, you suddenly hear an announcement from intercom:
"We kindly remind all the participants, that this competition is non-political one. Please refrain from making political statements in your songs."
You wonder if something had happened at the stage and pour a glass of wine for you to enjoy.
KoolKoal (4): vezokpiraka, Rhand, KittyCupCake, Lastwhisper
Megiddo (2): Cantripmancer, Killjoy
tomsloger (1): Silvercrys3467
Not Voting (5): tomsloger, Vaimes, KoolKoal, EmikoYuriemoto, Megiddo
V/LA: -
With 12 alive, it’s 7 to lynch. Deadline is on October 11th, 8.59 PM GMT (~30h 45 min from this post)!
all of the wagons are good ?
I’m not sure enough about anyone for it to be worth pushing for more claims, not without another week added to the deadline. No point in pushing if I don’t know I’ll hit scum.
I’ll give my parting reads sometime tomorrow then self vote if necessary.
Ok.
??? I mean...I haven't drawn any major conclusions from the ISO, but the ISO itself is done. Surprised you didn't have any thoughts on what I had done thus far.
I didn't say that saying "exactly one" would be scummy. I said that I would expect scum to be more likely to say "1, maybe more" rather than "1, possibly 0". The former response pushes the likelihood that at least one is scum (hence, on at least a subconscious level, encouraging lunching all three to find the scum among them), while the latter does absolutely nothing (afaict) to further a scum agenda. Show me how "1, possibly 0" furthers Emiko's agenda as scum and I'll reconsider. (Yes, it could have been a walkback, but I didn't get that impression.)
No, you're not, mea culpa. "A lot" was also an exaggeration given you've done it twice.
...I feel like this is exactly opposite of how I generally feel about this kind of situation. Had KK just said "I like Tom's case, vote Silver!" I would have given him the eyebrow. But KK presented several observations that he found questionable (not really a case), then indicated agreement with Tom and voted accordingly. Why do you find that suspicious?
At first I thought you were talking about this and I was lolconfused, but then I ctrl+f'd your iso for eyes and found this. ...I guess I'll have to take your word for it, because you used "eyes emoji" (the text, not the same emoji you used in this game, so who knows if you meant the same thing), and when I read it while the game was in progress, I thought you were giving Wisp a "shocked/surprised" response (which is what I usually associate with an eyes emoji, not specifically "good" or "bad"). And you didn't actually provide any clarification as to what you meant by it in that thread, so telling me to use it as a contextual comparison is still just lol.
Really? Why? :eyesemoji: (See, that's "shock at something I find weird", not "hey, I like this".)
So why is he your "dream CFD"?
So you had him at neutral/maybe-scum, then thought KK could be a scum!Rhand counterwagon due to timing and the votes on KK, but now you feel better about some of the votes that were on KK so now you're progressing back to maybe scum-KK?
This is a strong enough reason to want a lunch/this is your strongest read/reason as of right now??
Kool, your 956 feels off to me. Knowing that you're town feels like it should be sufficient reason for you to want to push elsewhere. Yes, you might push toward town, but if you just accept your own lunch, then you KNOW you're further from achieving your wincon. So...???
@Cantrip @megs
I can’t recall when specifically I wrote the dream CFD, so shrug.
Yes re: meg scumread. I didn’t really have to read him last game because beeboy was towny, and for me he’s kinda There and saying a lot of words but I’m pretty meh about it.
I mean...original statement by Emiko was "i think vaimes + silvercrys + kittycake has 1 scum", then when Vaimes asked if he meant there was exactly one in that group, Emiko clarified "no sorry up to one". Shadow said he found the second response townie. I agreed with that. My perception of the alignments of the three players in question doesn't enter into this part of the discussion? So I feel like I'm misunderstanding your question.
Vote Meg
With the understanding that KK is likely the lunch, but having vote on a scumread and stuff. Already plenty of support for the main wagon.
I feel like that's a pretty weak reason for wanting to lunch someone, and I'm surprised that you don't have any more weighty reasons for wanting to lunch <anyone>, but ok, noted.
Fair. I don't know where I'm going with it yet. There's some good and some bad, and I need more input.
Working on similar KK review, but there's a lot more posts....
Saying "1 or 0" over "1 or more" seems indicative of scum motivation opposite ways if its "3 townies" vs "a partner or two" in the grouping.
And i was thinking about voting you rn and townread megs over how youve both approached this. Even moreso if you never even considered?
Uh
Why are you drawing that line at multiple partners instead of 1?
I don’t need to be alive to win the game, I need the town to lynch the scum.
If I somehow survive or change who gets lynched, I’m still seen as scummy and probably lynched Day 2 unless something else clears me.
Frankly, I don’t think my reads are good enough to make a fuss about staying in the game now that I’m the objectively best lynch (outside of someone being 100% outed scum, which is highly unlikely to happen before deadline)
Pushing my teammates to play poorly just so I can stay in the game seems bad to me.
Again, my tune would be different if the deadline weren’t on the doorstep.
Also, the idea of not playing mafia while rl stuff that’s making me touchy sounds pretty nice. Plus my 3 week trip I’m leaving for on Saturday sounds a lot less stressful without having to keep up with the game.
Not everyone has strong scumreads on D1. Especially when there’s no one claiming my role.
It's been a while since you weighed in on me: What's your read on me currently/what was it before this particular discussion?
Fair.
I wouldn’t quite say I want out, but I’ve seen some rl benefits to it.
Ok i currently think youre scum which would make silver likely town
vote cantrip
In the meantime, I'd love to hear why you think I'm scum.
I think you just admitted its an NAI statement from emiko if theres 1 scum in the 3 so you dont actually care about the statement except when you need it to.
Im thinking something along the lines of pocketing emiko, attacking (town) megs.
Chance of just TMI that it was v/v/v but i wouldnt outright clear them all (to be clear this isnt part of why i think it makes you scum just next step if im right)
@KJ and whoever asked... Cantrip I think? There is a post where I explained why I don’t think tom can be scum without LW.
[b]vezok:[b/] am i correct or are there other reasons you say i am aggressive
Why no vote tbh?
but like let me at least think through and respond first.
>why is "up to one" NOT a scum response?
before anything else can you answer why “up to one” could NOT have been a scum answer? you say it’s less scummy than “exactly one” but i don’t see why.
1) do you still want me to answer your earlier question.
2) say cantrip is scum. does that influence your read of KK? if so how
um. well, how does scum cantrip make you feel about KK
I mostly think kk is town, but [would definitely/expect to have to] vote him over a no lynch. Dont think cantrip alignment really moves the needle there
You think Cantrip is a wolf and is implying that all three of us are town and that therefore "0 to 1" is less wolfy because it's more correct? Or did I misunderstand.
this is kind of gross, and i'm forming a cantrip/kk buddies world because of it.
this... is also gross?
basically just a smear/discredit attempt rather than any real response.
1) the short version is the alignments of <A, B, C> were not relevant to any discussion I had about this topic until now.
Related, may I ask you to explain a little further your thoughts/statements about this earlier regarding the "multiple partners" but as well as "I think you just admitted its an NAI statement from emiko if theres 1 scum in the 3 so you dont actually care about the statement except when you need it to." ?
I'm sort of having trouble following.
2) See above, the KK/Cantrip buddies world makes sense and kind of explains the lack of counterwagon—there already was one on me, led by Cantrip. It just... didn't have a ton of traction. but I've been between 2-4 votes for a lot of the Day. it makes sense that to me that scum would try and make that happen.
if it is cantrip/kk... a lot fits.
i'm going to do some reading to make sure i'm not just chasing ghosts here. but lynching in [KK, cantrip] is what I want to do Today.
vote cantrip
I will vote KK if cantrip wagon doesn't get off the ground.
I mean, I do like the odds on KK, but I'm not going to start hunting for buddies without a flip
explain that jump that silver quoted in #985
also your use of "currently", just feels like you are keeping options open
does cantrip being town make silver a wolf again?
I don't really see that either of them ever attempts to solve the other.
As for "currently", cantrip asked what my read of him was currently...
But yes of course if im wrong on cantrip id go back to silver scum its the thing making me think he might be town
Should've quoted that one instead I guess?
Cantrip admits its NAI if theres 1 scum in the 3. That doesnt come up at all while he uses it to call emiko town or attack megs. Thus, its a read of convenience rather than a thing hes considering.
Further theory: if cantrip is, in fact, scum this may have been caused by TMI. As stated (quite clearly in 975 i thought which is why that being your question is strange) that isn't why hes scum its a conclusion
"We kindly remind all the participants, that no living animals are allowed on stage. If you need animals as part of the show, please use stuffed animals or humans as replacement."
You hear the next announcement right after the previous one. Weirdly enough, this one woman about to hit the stage just smilies to herself as the hears the announcement...
KoolKoal (4): vezokpiraka, Rhand, KittyCupCake, Lastwhisper
Megiddo (3): Cantripmancer, Killjoy, Vaimes
Cantripmancer (2): tomsloger, Megiddo
tomsloger (1): Silvercrys3467
Not Voting (2): KoolKoal, EmikoYuriemoto
V/LA: -
With 12 alive, it’s 7 to lynch. Deadline is on October 11th, 8.59 PM GMT (~13h 45 min from this post)!
Meg- I'm not sure I believe meg re: he's trying to be less aggressive. The rest of his play still seems very disconnected from each other. Meg recently said to me that he typically posts his thoughts in such a way that he can ISO himself and kind of... relive the game through his eyes. I believe he literally said he uses that in lieu of notes. So, those thoughts should have some sort of notable progression, no?
Actually, I'm ISOing him right now to look for progression, and I'm not seeing much in the way of "thoughts" insofar as there are a lot of sarcastic comments, questions that don't really have any followup, and answering questions posed to him. He also does this thing with Vaimes in the early game where he shades him a bunch but also refuses to scumread him that I don't like. There's also him being ok with KK lynch because of KCC's catch, despite his apparently generally seeming to scumread him (the most recent point he'd made about KK was that he didn't like his vote on silver in 340) but also not being ok with it because arguments make sense and frustration seems real.
I just feel like his whole thing doesn't amount to a cohesive thought process. Like, with the early game stuff with Vaimes... that's kinda the last we hear about Vaimes from his perspective. He highlights suspicous things he's been doing, hasn't mentioned any real townie things he's done, but no longer seems interested in him. He wants to lynch KK for reasons that are not his own, despite the fact that he should reasonably have some of his own. Further, he likes KCC's catch on KK enough to justify a lynch, but doesn't remember what the catch actually was, and doesn't seem interested enough to actually check.
His thoughts just feel... fake... as a whole. The only real one I really saw was about me in 485. Where's more of that? Where's him putting reads together to form a conclusion.
Koolkoal - In contrast, there was a portion of KK's postings that I thought sounded real. In 180 for instance he asks if he always used to scumrad KCC in the past. That's I think something scum don't really think to fake. There was another post or two that sounded like real frustration.
My problems with him involved using some manipulative language (such as calling Silver 'classic scum' in 340, which kind of makes something feel scummier because it's been done so much due to being classic. It should be noted he also votes Silver for tom's case in that post) and believing Rhand is scum disappearing because of pressure (post hoc ergo procter hoc).
Cantrip- I'm not entirely following what's making him scummy. We probably don't have enough time before deadline for this to happen for me. Not really an option.
Given a choice between he and KK, I'd rather the lynch today be Meg. KK at least I can follow his thought process, so he's slightly more likely to be town. And I kinda don't think they're scum together because wagons/counterwagons.
Dont think that tracks
We'll see i dont want to kill megs or kk but no lynching is bad
definitely i prefer lynching cantripmancer more than lynching megiddo .
cantripmancer appears to use too many words to say very little .
vote : cantripmancer
Killjoy, Emiko mentioned their experience, didn't sound like a complete noob. Even as a noob, though, I wouldn't expect inexperienced scum to put forth a "1 in x/y/z" and then upon cross-examination go "or could be zero". Newer scum from what I've observed are more likely to amp up the possibilities of others being scummy than not unless they're receiving flak. Not a guaranteed read for me, but Emiko's continuing to make ok-ish-to-good posts.
~~~~~~~~~
I didn't say that saying "exactly one" would be scummy. I said that I would expect scum to be more likely to say "1, maybe more" rather than "1, possibly 0". The former response pushes the likelihood that at least one is scum (hence, on at least a subconscious level, encouraging lunching all three to find the scum among them), while the latter does absolutely nothing (afaict) to further a scum agenda. Show me how "1, possibly 0" furthers Emiko's agenda as scum and I'll reconsider. (Yes, it could have been a walkback, but I didn't get that impression.)
I mean...original statement by Emiko was "i think vaimes + silvercrys + kittycake has 1 scum", then when Vaimes asked if he meant there was exactly one in that group, Emiko clarified "no sorry up to one". Shadow said he found the second response townie. I agreed with that. My perception of the alignments of the three players in question doesn't enter into this part of the discussion? So I feel like I'm misunderstanding your question.
I feel like saying "1, maybe more" when there are multiple buddies in the grouping wouldn't even be a thing scum would consider, but having 1 in there would still feel "safe" for scum to say. If there were exactly one buddy in there, I'd feel less like one of the two perspectives would be more likely.