He probably got his role PM and thought it would be fun to mislunch me
And when he saw me do "thing he thinks is objectively scummy" he decided to go for it
Obviously it would be good for him to get rid of me either way but I don't think the decision to mislunch me vs night kill came from a strictly +ev place if that makes sense
I can't believe this as a real thought you had.
It's a really bizarre angle to take on somebody voting/casing you.
idk man that still sounds pretty fake to me. how often have you seen me present a scumread that wasnt narrative-based?
Ftr the narrative was a thought exercise and what made me vote you was going back to that initial post i called "not the towny version but not the scummy version either" and changing my mind that it was the scum version and now ive already moved on to this reaction to my vote just being made up omgus because i called out <like 2/3s of the scumteam>
I write narrative reads all the time dude, it isn't about [the fact that there was a narrative]
The narrative didn't feel natural and I don't think those are real thoughts you had about me
It's not omgus, I don't think you suck I just think you're a wolf
Could be wrong, yeah, but don't think I am
This feels like classic scum ignoring something difficult to argue against (most of tom's FTR) while attacking the part of the case they think is weak. Appearing strong while glossing over an important part of the argument.
I ***** posted with Vaimes some which you apparently took as TMI that he's town because you... thought I was strongly townreading him without trying to solve him
you "cased" me and concluded I was a wolf
I called you out because I was never strongly townreading Vaimes and your "case" felt manufactured to fit the read you wanted
And now I'm a wolf because I thought your case was manufactured and I voted you for it
now either
(1) you're a villager and you... got it wrong then doubled down on it for some reason
Or (2) you're a wolf and I'm right
gonna go with (2), evidence to the contrary
So tom is scum because towntom wouldn't be wrong and would certainly realize he's wrong and would never double down because he would know he's wrong.
I'm feeling pretty comfortable with tom's case here.
vote Silvercrys3467
hm.
Ok I originally quoted this post and I was going to be like "yeah I like this KK post. good catch on the "ignoring something difficult to argue against" bit"
Now i'm noticing the silver vote and I actually don't like it here.
So, cool.
Tom's case was built on things that are objectively false, and he twisted them into a narrative to build his case
I never tried to get Vaimes to attack Emiko, I specifically said Emiko wasn't wolfy
He never "called me out", he said it was a "lack of town points" and he supposedly interpreted that as something I would care about correcting and that would send me scrambling to justify a read I never even had
I'm done talking about this. He's either spectacularly wrong or a wolf.
IDK man, this narrative you're ascribing to Tom really looks like something you made up yourself:
Ok I figured out the problem I have with this post: it's that despite not actually scumreading Emiko, you make the point that 'TWTBAW is sometimes jsut a wolf'. I'm having trouble following that train of thought.
I agree that sometimes wolfy folks are just really really wolfy, but if you're not scumreading Emiko... why make the point that really wolfy people can just be wolves? You don't think Emiko is a wolf, so saying that feels out of place. Talk me throgh it.
I'm generally against the idea of people being "too wolfy" to be a wolf; wolves can use it to hide behind as a sort of "refuge in audacity". I simply don't think the mindset Emiko was posting from was all that wolfy to begin with. The action itself, sure, but not the mindset, and I generally hold that to be more important than the action in a vacuum.
Hi Silver. Two questions here: Do you think Vaimes kind of... countering your townread of him is alignment indicative of him? And why are you townreading me? I don't recall you saying. I'm pretty sure I made 4 posts as of now and three of them were voting Rhand in RVS for indiscernable reasons and a couple more posts not answering questions about it.
Your posts to Emiko (43 & 45) read solve-y and I think as a wolf you're more likely to appease there than counterattack with "why do you think I did it?"
As far as Vaimes, like, kind of? It's not really something I think he wouldn't do as a wolf, just that the way he went/is going about it feels more villagery than not I guess. We've mostly just been *****posting, don't really think that's AI for him (maybe for me, but the one who would know that best either doesn't recognize that or is a wolf). I'm not really trying to get a hard read on him yet because I don't think I need to; if he's wolf!Vaimes he's posting a lot and he'll lead me to his partners later (or lead me to him from his partners). I'm comfortable not lunching him right now.
Maybe I need some kind of key for my T/S list, heh.
Me/dead town
strong town
town
lean town
neutral
lean wolf
wolf
strong/dead wolf
I was sorting you/tom/emiko/Vaimes within the "lean town" tier.
True enough, KCC, I forgot you were already voting Vaimes.
I kind of think he's a villager, though. Could you walk me through the read like I've never played Mafia before? Or is it literally just, you think he was trying to avoid RVS?
@silvercrys3467 @Vaimes what do you think of the other person's alignment ?
I still have a slight town read on him because I don't think he'd jump into the game and poke the bear.
I did kind of think his poking was bait though.
and another one thats almost the same reason but makes it me specific. Yeah thatll look towny
I made this whole post and im not sure whether its a case or just fanfic of silvers internal dialogue if he is scum that doesnt prove anything.
Its technically believable that town silver thinks of himself as a bear and thinks scumvaimes would be scared of poking him. I dont personally believe that to be the case but thats not really relevant. But if silver believes it and townreads vaimes for it and is immediately more interested in...
Uh
Disagree with vaimes premise but still encourage him to go after emiko instead of him
Without having any questions for vaimes because hes town
...
vote silver
That's a pretty good fanfic, but you're over-representing my townread on Vaimes a little bit there, don't you think?
And I dunno, I guess I'm confused as to why you think I was encouraging Vaimes to go after Emiko when I have both of them as town leans and I don't really think I was encouraging either of them to attack the other?
I wasn't saying I think scum!Vaimes would be afraid of poking me, just that I think he knows me well enough to know that I get irritable when people wolf read me for no reason and I thought he was trying to elicit an emotional reaction out of me, which I town read him for, but I also didn't want to give him the satisfaction (partly because it's a part of my game I'm trying and as yet failing to excise entirely) so I *****posted about it, and I'm pretty confident that if he is a wolf I'll get him later and he's going to either lead me to his partners or vice-versa with how much he's posting.
Ordinarily I'd town read you for this because you have a pretty bad track record faking scum reads on me so you just haven't bothered the last few times you wolfed against me but this reads more like you've decided to try it again than something I think you actually believe. This doesn't read like town!tom paranoia of my "eventually good scum game", more like wolf!tom making up reasons to vote me.
Vote: tom
Silvercrys
Killjoy / Emiko
Vaimes
KK / Vezok
Cantrip / Rhand / shadow / KCC
megiddo
tom
list is roughly sorted within tiers
Killjoy's #43 and #45 are enough to put him above Vaimes. Emiko's mindset just reads like a new town player from a different meta.
Vaimes I've discussed at length at this point.
KK / Vezok are slightly above null, I don't think either of them has really done anything AI but their posting/questions/responses feel townie overall.
Cantrip / Rhand / shadow / KCC are about true null.
megs feels off, do not like the vaimes smearing/shading without a vote.
tom has already decided how he's going to read me and is spinning a narrative to fit his read rather than finding the read that matches his perception of the game.
I went back to find this and it just feels like a HUGE overreaction to a single vote.
I don't get why you would be energetic about the whole thing. Now, yes, after this point it makes sense that you'd get into it, but here??
your self-aware comments about "poking the bear" really raise my hackles too.
<meg: this post is really long so i clipped it, but i'm responding to a couple of things within it>
1) why would you tie me/vez together there? What makes us buddies?
2) "sure" was a bit strong but usually i get people voting me for playing this way. You can see i've gathered a reasonable number of votes.
I liked your vote because it didn't feel lazy. Though I will now ask: have you since read up on ZE or done any other meta digging on me?
I could maybe see that you thought it was weird that I gave Vaimes a town read after you mentioned I wasn't trying to solve him but like
it was never a strongly stated read and I said in response to you that I wasn't even trying to read him yet, which you blew off as "bravado" or whatever but I don't see why you think, as a wolf, I would say that and then immediately try to invent reasons for townreading him when I just said I didn't need to
and the rest is pure fanfiction, particularly the part where you believe this is a wolf reaction to your vote
Like, you have played with me before, right? This isn't a different tomsloger from the one who was in Barebones or one of the other games where I voted someone back for voting me with a bad case? Kpaca in Horsemen?
Anyway this is going nowhere and I'm ready to move on when everyone else is
megiddo interactions are bad . there is not much else to see .
tomsloger is a mix of good and bad .
koolkoal has a lot of wolf posts and interactions .
kittycake appears wolf for votes and interactions .
This is a good observation on KCC, and I like the vote. I'm personally not sure on KCC's alignment, but this case/progression feels pure.
(also, i agree on 345 lol. that's the one I blanked out above. Meanwhile, i'm making a post that's going to be even worse...)
Which interactions of mine are bad? And why are they bad?
What about KK? Can you substantiate that read?
Also curious where the silver townread comes from.
Vez, you thought KK was scum, you don't like KK's response to Shadow's vote, but you're voting shadow because his vote is "egregious"? How is it egregious? It's not a read I necessarily agree with, but I can believe it's really a read Shadow makes.
I mean, I’m openly admitting to poor play here, so yeah. What you suggest does sound much smarter than what I did.
I feel like, as scum, I could probably have gotten away without mentioning KJ and coasting anyway?
I distinctly remember Megs making me want to tear my hair out when trying to read him as either alignment, so I’m leaving him null until he does something that doesn’t feel like he’s clutching his cards close to his chest or until I can reread him specifically, perhaps when I can look at interactions with someone confirmed.
Emiko seems very surface level in his/her reads. For example, putting KCC and I as top scumspects with no mention of our interactions earlier. I think likely town and extremely likely to mess up if scum anyway.
i'm pretty easy to read I think, mostly because I have historically been godawful as scum...
I suppose now is where i can ask this question...
Why are you treating emiko like a newb despite claimed experience?
I forgot the bridge thought in my Emiko read:
Emiko’s reads lead me to believe he/she is genuinely a newer player, therefore extremely likely to mess up as scum.
I forgot I quoted this too.
But uh, why do you think emiko is new? I thought the KCC thing was pretty astute. also I feel like she is playing with a lot of confidence.
Caught up bit skimmed parts of tom vs silver.
If there is scum in tom/silver, it’s tom. Scum!silver wouldn’t draw all that attention to himself and would have dropped it when there was no support coming, while scum!tom has the confidence to push a mislynch like this and get away with it afterwards.
That said, I think it’s more likely KK is scum and tom and silver both town.
The way he picked a side at a moment where multiple people were saying that we should move our focus elsewhere makes a lot of sense from a scum standpoint that wants to continue this fight.
Megs has a post somewhere that almost reads like a confession. Will look it up when not on the phone.
My current world is KK/Megs/Vaimes?
The Vaimes read is still flimsy though.
@tom: where did KJ show he likes your fight?
Why would scum want to continue the fight? Or, more realistically, what's preventing KK from being town who became convinced that the argument wasn't town on town and decided to weigh in with that?
This is a weird argument for you to make.
Silver didnt draw attention to himself, i drew attention to him
He did try to drop it when he got no support
And also
Weak
^ /barn with regard to dropping
tho silver could have easily just ignored your case. he definitely drew the attention with his response to your initial post.
I'm not sure what to make of KK right now + his stuff from the last night.
will do some research; it sounded ok but, weird tone today?
coming out of this with silver / rhand scum i think. Rhand popin posts not inspiring and don't make a ton of sense. hopefully after he is off of v/la he can post more. Silver, see above.
I'm not super confident on things rn. the game has a lot of experienced players who are good at playing slightly detached, I think, which makes it hard for me to get good d1 reads.
ewp i see there's a votecount. unvote, vote silver
game: after this afternoon I am going to be v/la until wednesday. Going to a wedding. Will try and post but no promises. I'm around the rest of the day though.
think the structure of this post is scummy for megs.
It doesnt want to be interacted with
Like the vote though sigh
Also @megs
I literally havent bussed a buddy that wasnt already under substantial suspicion in actual years.
Once you figure out you can get away with being wrong (thanks occassionally awesome but wildly inconsistent town meta) theres no reason to not play to your win condition
Any of the votes on you currently feel any different than the usual "picking up votes for playstyle"?
i also agree on the wagons/votes/game being weird.
flashbacks to my "weird energy" post
but I think that's probably a function of D1 + a lot of experienced players. things will probably get more cohesive as we go.
not sure that first sentence makes sense when top wagons are (himself when hes talked about picking up votes as a matter of course) and (himself and the two people hes sheeping on silver voting silver)
Silver: makes a bunch of posts swishing around worlds where tom is town, puts him in yellow instead of orange in a readslist
Tom: "Silver's scum read is unwavering and he knows I would do anything as either alignment, also I wouldn't do the specific thing he says he thinks I'm doing if I was a wolf though"
If you are town we are not reading the same game my dude
I almost would believe you want me to be a wolf this badly, but at the same time you kind of are just pushing this dead end wagon and getting town read for it so like
oh no i didnt care that you "changed my color but still had me as top scum" or "put me in a group that contains only one scum so the others are town" but still concluded it was just me
first of all, if its me-specific its even worse since im quite sure silver knows that the actual reason im so inscrutable is because i have an infinite townrange as much as an infinite wolfrange. Like, dude has seen me roleplay as a spider. Dude has played with me as an alt he thought was an extremely serious new player in game. Dude has seen me post entirely in shards of alara block flavor text
(Sidenote: i have no idea if hes read those games specifically theyre just examples (except the middle one. RIP user not-a-gimmick) but weve definitely played enough)
Okay, great, but, that's all quite a bit different from what silver is saying. He doubts that townTom genuinely suspects silver for the reasons given. Questioning your underlying reasoning has nothing to do with your role play talents.
Offhand? Without rereading? Yeah, I can't name a single opinion you have on anything but silver.
But that wasn't really the point of that question
i mean, it has everything to do with my roleplay talents if he thinks i decided pregame to push him and am playing the part of "silver tunneler"
Like, it was in significant amount a pretend scumread at the start. Ive said that, id expect everyone that knows me to at least not be surprised by that.
Him taking a vote early day 1 as completely serious and locking me as any alignment for it are... two things that anyone who knows me wouldnt do.
Its a fake read or hes swapping me in his head with another tom despite me being in >half the games hes ever played
Like, it was in significant amount a pretend scumread at the start. Ive said that, id expect everyone that knows me to at least not be surprised by that.
Him taking a vote early day 1 as completely serious and locking me as any alignment for it are... two things that anyone who knows me wouldnt do.
Its a fake read or hes swapping me in his head with another tom despite me being in >half the games hes ever played
I... I...
You do understand that you're saying his read has to be fake, but his read was that your read was fake, which it was, but he should have known it was fake, which he did?
If you think I wouldn't react to that bull***** read you made with a vote back and a dissection of your post if I was town you must have me screwed up with someone else
I wasn't as sure as I said I was when I made the vote either, I expected that if you were town you would have backed off not dug in, and then you went and said I wouldn't do that as town and I know for a fact that's bull*****, I have the receipts from Barebones, the Org/CFC game where I scumread Visor on D1, and Star Trek MU IV when I got infracted for arguing against a bull***** read.
Like, it was in significant amount a pretend scumread at the start. Ive said that, id expect everyone that knows me to at least not be surprised by that.
Him taking a vote early day 1 as completely serious and locking me as any alignment for it are... two things that anyone who knows me wouldnt do.
Its a fake read or hes swapping me in his head with another tom despite me being in >half the games hes ever played
I... I...
You do understand that you're saying his read has to be fake, but his read was that your read was fake, which it was, but he should have known it was fake, which he did?
no its not about the read its the level of certainty/locking it in
If you think I wouldn't react to that bull***** read you made with a vote back and a dissection of your post if I was town you must have me screwed up with someone else
I wasn't as sure as I said I was when I made the vote either, I expected that if you were town you would have backed off not dug in, and then you went and said I wouldn't do that as town and I know for a fact that's bull*****, I have the receipts from Barebones, the Org/CFC game where I scumread Visor on D1, and Star Trek MU IV when I got infracted for arguing against a bull***** read.
well 3 other people with the same not bull***** read now. Thread temperature generally that were both town but substantially more support on my side than yours. Even people that think youre town think i believe it. And you dont seem super capable of letting go of the initial read whereas ive moved on conpletely to your reaction
So...
Lets get eachother infracted baby
(Not really @mods)
@kcc my driving point is not that townsilver wouldnt be scumreading me. It certainly isnt that he treated vaimes like he knew he was town and wanted him to chase emiko/get of himself
Its that hes acting like caught scum and faking a scumread of me because he trapped hinself in it with a bad reaction to a vote
No, no one else should waste any more time on this. You're both doing the exact same thing of trying to second third and fourth guess each other based on flimsy starting premises and exaggerated reads like some game of 3d chess using a half set of broken checkers and some loose buttons
@kcc my driving point is not that townsilver wouldnt be scumreading me. It certainly isnt that he treated vaimes like he knew he was town and wanted him to chase emiko/get of himself
Its that hes acting like caught scum and faking a scumread of me because he trapped hinself in it with a bad reaction to a vote
Silver: *does basically nothing*
Tom: silver shouldn't feel this about vaimes (he doesn't)
Silver: Tom shouldn't think I'm scum for that (he doesn't, it's kinda fake)
Tom: silver shouldn't think I'm scum for that (he doesn't, it's kinda exaggerated)
Silver: Tom shouldn't think I wouldn't think that
Tom: silver shouldn't think I wouldn't think he'd think that
Silver: Tom shouldn't think I shouldn't think he wouldn't think I didn't think that
@kcc my driving point is not that townsilver wouldnt be scumreading me. It certainly isnt that he treated vaimes like he knew he was town and wanted him to chase emiko/get of himself
Its that hes acting like caught scum and faking a scumread of me because he trapped hinself in it with a bad reaction to a vote
And this is why I think you're a wolf
We just got out of Hill House like, a few weeks ago where Chris said the same thing about me and was wrong
We've played how many games together with how many people saying "looks like caught scum" and being wrong 'cause I was town? and I'm supposed to believe you believe that?
Pretty sure it happens every game dude, or pretty close to it
It's a bad read. It's not a bad read for KK or KJ or Megs to have, or a bad read in a vacuum (though I'd argue it's way less accurate than people give it credit for). It's bad for you specifically and probably makes you a wolf. Just like Bare Bones.
When KJ brought up the same thing you did I was like, "hunh, maybe Tom could be town if he's not the only one who misunderstood the post, maybe it wasn't as clear as I thought" but then you went on with this nonsense fake meta of me acting like caught scum when you know this isn't a wolfy reaction for me.
I do know that i work in a much smaller range of certainty than most
It's 54.5% I can keep up with the stats. I actually prefer you using reasonable numbers over the 75 and 80 you and kk were throwing around earlier
thats assuredly more player indicative than alignment indicative.
Youre never gonna get a number <5% or >60% from me i understand statistics too well (and im not good enough at towning)
People who know each other too well, and who aren't entirely sincere with reads, but apparently don't know each other well enough to take that into consideration and just let things snowball
People who know each other too well, and who aren't entirely sincere with reads, but apparently don't know each other well enough to take that into consideration and just let things snowball
well you know no plans are perfect.
In the world where silver is town we both tried to gage eachother in some new way and <completely cocked it up quite frankly> by leveling ourselves and eachother so hard we created a Moment in Time that will effect how we read eachother forever
Which doesnt sound like the worst to me im having a blast and barely care about winning or being right anyway im just here to play some mafia woooo
Not sure <completely cocked it up> quite covers it if you're town, but yeah I'm not not having fun anyway
Was a bit tilted earlier and trying to avoid that, but I don't <think> you're trying to tilt me intentionally regardless of your alignment, it's a me problem
Let the good times roll, it's just a game amirite?
Silver, I am like 99% certain tom is town. Probably my strongest townread.
Please don't waste anymore time on him. You can laugh at me later if I'm wrong, but after accurately scumreading the hell out of him just last game, this is not his scumgame.
I don't believe you, but also I started looking for his partners a while ago anyway because no one believes me
Only reason we're still talking about this is I'm now tied at three votes with KK and Megs so maybe talk to him if you think we're both town since he's the one still pushing me rather than reverse
Also not really sure what I'm supposed to be seeing re: Killjoy's 357. It looks like a wall of questions, nothing sticks out as being different from his usual MO.
And I don't know if it makes a difference to anyone, but I did not at all take Silver's reponse to me re: Emiko to be an encouragement to scumread her. In what universe is Silver going to nudge nudge wink wink pressure on her while also calling her town?
@cantrip: If I had my Neighborizer ability here, I'd definitely take the flip into account, but if I had to pick now, I might do you and vaimes again for similar reasons.
What similar reasons? I think Cantrip is town and I'm not actively scumreading you.
No one really scumreading tom hasn't made you reconsider at all?
Depends on what you mean by "reconsider"
I've considered worlds where he's town a few times and game makes more sense to me if he's a wolf as of right now
If you get to the Rhand post you might see why I think it's like, tom/Rhand/+1, he goes "Yeah Silver's town and Tom's maybe a wolf but I think they're both town and KoolKoal is a wolf, also Megiddo slipped but I'll tell you about that next time byyyye"
(That is an exaggeration/caricature, of course, and not actually my read I want you to read the post)
Also worlds with Megs/KK together make almost no sense because they're both pushing me pretty strongly and tied wagons together, yeah? With my wagon basically dead they need a new counterwagon and aren't even looking for one though maybe they just don't think it's dead
And also with Megs/KK tied I kind of think Megs doesn't put me to tied with them unless they are partners but having both of them not looking for another wagon and pushing me is a lot of eggs in the basket like I just said
Votes are just moving weird and make the most sense if tom is a wolf driving my wagon and everyone else on it just doesn't know me that well while Rhand tries to distance from tom and push KK without voting him and the third is voting KK.
In worlds where tom is town it's like 1 in [KK/Megs] [1 on whichever of them is town] [1 bussing or off wagons or also voting on the not wolf not me wagon] at the time of Megs' vote on me which I guess could be but like
Point is if you're asking if I'm going to town read him just because everyone else is, no, that isn't going to happen.
Re: Killjoy's post he was casting some pretty heavy shade in my direction in a pretty weird way like taking the post he quoted to be directed entirely at him and like, misinterpreting weird things about what I posted to make me look worse. But I'm kind of cold on him now after his response to my response
Probably helps that wolf tom is trying to chain us together after my flip since KJ is his next suspect after I'm dead. Can already see it from spec chat: "whoops my bad I guess we were both town lol anyway that one Killjoy post was pretty bad since we're both town, even Silver agreed!"
@cantrip: If I had my Neighborizer ability here, I'd definitely take the flip into account, but if I had to pick now, I might do you and vaimes again for similar reasons.
What similar reasons? I think Cantrip is town and I'm not actively scumreading you.
I'm iffy townlean on both of you, I don't think you're the most likely NKs, I know you'd actually use it (hopefully just for reading each other and maybe gambits, not riling up conspiracy theories)
Tom: It uses passive language, doesn't actively engage the people you're refencing, and doesn't really engage, well, anyone. It's also not taking
credit" for the opinion. Like "I think there should be votes on kj" is active. "Hey, Silver/KK/whoever, why are you not voting for kj?"
Just sitting back and pondering why there are no votes without trying to make some.
ima need you to rethink this opinion which suggests that the towny thing for me to do is get people to vote you when i dont think youre scum
Thats... not the townie thing for you to do here. The townie thing, given you actually thinking that "if tom is town AND silver is town, people should be thinking that KJ is scum", would be calling out the people you listed as people who think you're both town for not voting me. Like, asking those people why they're not voting me. Not just musing to no one in particular. You're not taking ownership of the opinion.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@meg: I don’t think Emiko is lying, I don’t think he/she is brand new, but probably only has a few games under their belt.
Maybe it’s just the language barrier, but I think Emiko’s reads are coming from simple things and the picture isn’t being fully put together in places.
i have played a lot of games .
i cannot do anything for the language barrier . sorry .
@cantrip: If I had my Neighborizer ability here, I'd definitely take the flip into account, but if I had to pick now, I might do you and vaimes again for similar reasons.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Tom: It uses passive language, doesn't actively engage the people you're refencing, and doesn't really engage, well, anyone. It's also not taking
credit" for the opinion. Like "I think there should be votes on kj" is active. "Hey, Silver/KK/whoever, why are you not voting for kj?"
Just sitting back and pondering why there are no votes without trying to make some.
ima need you to rethink this opinion which suggests that the towny thing for me to do is get people to vote you when i dont think youre scum
Thats... not the townie thing for you to do here. The townie thing, given you actually thinking that "if tom is town AND silver is town, people should be thinking that KJ is scum", would be calling out the people you listed as people who think you're both town for not voting me. Like, asking those people why they're not voting me. Not just musing to no one in particular. You're not taking ownership of the opinion.
This can't not be fake. Vote Tom
Its fake because i only left my tunnel enough to wonder about a thing instead really bite into it?
Im pushing what i believe in my dude, not...
Things i actively dont?
Language can cause the noobish vibes I've been getting I think. I'll look again in the new context later.
Could be but also like, it wasn't really the newb town vibe that sold me after the first couple of pages
I liked the fire she used when KCC said she might've been told to attack you and I really don't think she has partners, or if she does they don't have day chat at minimum
Kind of get this sense like she's sort of plodding along making her own connections and reads and not relying on external help
Like, check out that PoE there's no way that's a list of mislunches she came up with with help from someone from MTGS lol. Putting the game on hard mode if those are mostly villagers, doesn't even have any current wagons in it.
I guess she would sort of fit that "Megs/KK/+1" world looking for a new wagon to save her partners but that's the realm of tinfoil for me at the moment so
Between my eye making reading painful and maybe upcoming vacation, I’m not giving/going to give this game the kind of attention it deserves. As such I’m replacing out.
I actually made peace with the idea of rolling scum when I switched to in for this game. And my own efforts strongly depend on how reliable I feel my teammates are.
i think vaimes + silvercrys + kittycake has 1 scum
I like how on page 2 KCC ignores Silver’s push on her. Not a huge alignment tell (experienced scum know to ignore small pushes), but a good unalignment tell. If Silver was a buddy, KCC would react.
Conclusions after page 2:
Vaimes / Emiko maybe aligned
Silver/Vaimes, Silver/Emiko, Silver/KCC not aligned
Vaimes maybe scum
Vezok maybe scum
Shadow’s entry is pretty weak. An unexplained vote on tom and calling Emiko town for this:
i think vaimes + silvercrys + kittycake has 1 scum
Exactly one?
no sorry up to one
Townie post.
If my page 1 Vaimes + Emiko gut turns out correct, then here’s a very plausible 3rd for that team.
All makes a lot of sense if scum has daychat and they decided to townread Emiko hard.
He does explain when asked in #124, but that reminds me a bit of Azrael in Modern mafia where he over-analyzed his buddy’s post to call him town early on when asked why the townread.
Cantrip agrees with Shadow in #137 though… maybe I’m overthinking this.
Or maybe not. Megs seems to have sniffed it too in #139.
Townpoints for Megs.
Anyways, only works if Shadow is scum with Emiko. Doesn’t help me read Shadow.
Vezok making a very low-impact post in #145 is bothersome.
#148 is one of those posts that triggered my gut on Vaimes on my first readthrough.
I like Megs again beginning page 4. Especially if Vaimes is scum.
#180 is a bad post by KK, who has been very low impact up till here.
Vezok spots that in #189. Townpoints for Vezok.
#191 is a good post by KJ and his town meta.
Tom’s #194 is pretty weak for a strong KK town read. Possible tom/KK aligned.
Which might make #195 a chainsaw because Silver just attacked KK and tom attacks Silver here.
This post where tom attacks me bothered me when I first saw it, but I couldn’t put my finger on it why.
There are multiple people here that know KK. It would be a bad thing to lie about.
My gut tells me something’s off with Vaimes, but I can’t put to words what it is.
@Vaimes: how is your confidence in your mafia game?
in that world this looks like wolf #3 popping in later
Gotta keep them options open.
Calling it now.
Silver/vez/rhand
Now I saw it: He says “in that world”, while what he accuses me of here (keeping my options open) has nothing to do with Silver or Vez. This is fake worldbuilding.
By the end of page 4 I see 2 different possible worlds:
Vaimes / Emiko / (Shadow)?
Tom / KK / ?
I feel way better about Megs than I did in my first read.
Townreads of various levels on KCC / Silver / KJ.
I thought I had enough time to go through the whole thread, but I spend 2 hours on this and should get back to preparing for my tour tomorrow.
DISCLAIMER: All of the below is just through the end of Page 10. I hate--HATE--doing that, but I've already started some comments and I don't have time to fully catch up so...this is what you get. Sorry.
@Cantrip: if Tom and silver are scum together, and have daychat (which they’d have to for your hypothetical planned thunderdome), then no, just no. There is no way they elect to make a significant portion of this day focused on being at each other’s throats like that. I know it’s a tinfoil, but I don’t think you should entertain it.
Thanks for your input, but just you saying "unlikely" is mostly unconvincing. I'll take it under advisement, though.
Cantrip: Re: Meg: 213 is the post I was referencing where he was explaining himself. Explain this more, because I'm still not sure why it's scummy. He's literally just explaining his thought process. But I do agree that he's doing a bit of egging and fluffposting... the issue is I think he does that as either alignment.
I admit that my memory is not great, so I may be misremembering, but I generally remember Megiddo as more or less devil-may-care/does what he wants, and what I saw of town!him in Modern didn't change that. To make sure, I just reread his ISO from Modern, and this game he feels a LOT different. I'll go into more detail when I have a little more time, but here I've noticed a few posts where he almost feels like he's pandering, and his fluffposts are a LOT more abrasive than they were in Modern. Again, I'll do my best to point out specifics soon.
Quote from KJ »
Re: you not caring about the answers to your questions: Good answer. I had thought that you were kind of not recieving any real pressure, so I thought I'd push you a bit to see your reaction. I'd rate it as "more town than not".
FTR, one of the things I did as scum early on that got me some unwanted attention was not following up on questions, so--unfortunately for this lovely town read on me from you--this isn't AI for me. I will go out of my way to follow up on questions no matter my alignment. But I like that you're pushing/poking.
Quote from KJ »
Re: tom/silver: I forget what game it was there town!tom made the point that he doesn't bus unless he needs to, but I looked into it recently. And he doesn't. Like, chronically doesn't. His treatment of Siver this early with no other significant pressure on him (Vaime kinda has some but he's not pushing very hard) makes it very unlikley that tom is scum with silver. Could it be theatre? Sure. Both are saavy enough mafia players to make that happen. But these particular hoofbeats are telling me horse right now. Unless they both start being scummy independent of each other, then it's probably a horse.
This is a lot more persuasive than Shadow's "nah, bad tinfoil" response, but I also feel like Tom wouldn't have a problem breaking his own meta once in a while, especially for a long game advantage. That said...I was mostly in the "Tom more likely town than Silver" camp, and Silver has made some good posts recently...so it probably really is a bad tinfoil. I'll keep it in my back pocket and revisit as new evidence comes to light, but it's definitely feeling less likely.
If you're town, I don't want to discourage this, but, can you explain at all how/why, because this feels sudden
Probably partially my tunneling was a tiredness thing. Last night I was tired and obviously a little silly/dumb overconfident as you can see in 416.
This morning I woke up and after a while decided it was too early and I had to go back to bed for an hour, but not before reading and getting over-emotional and posting 439.
Then I woke up, saw silver’s response, and found it reasonable. And I was like, “Oh yeah, I’m not 100% sure he’s scum and I’m really not ever supposed to be 100% certain before confirmation.”
I realized this over the course of writing my response in 447, and added the first line about my tunneling in the middle of typing it up because I didn’t trust myself to portray the slow revelation it was in the middle of the writing without it “sounding manufactured.”
Idk how well that answers your why question, but that’s my thought process at least.
If you're town, I apologize in advance, but this explanation really sounds like a fabricated rationale for backing off a bad push. In particular, your use of the word "supposed" there feels a bit like "oh yeah, how am I supposed to act as town?" And in general it's a very self-aware post. Maybe it's your playstyle, though? Would you say you're generally highly self-aware regardless of alignment? Have you been attacked for that before?
Just wanted to throw out there that I think Cantrip is town.
I know his secrets.
Is one of those secrets that I'm a sucker for mysteriously being town-read?
Meanwhile, you're feeling very similar to you in Modern, and I'm still feeling guilty for treating you so shabbily there, so you can be town for now, too.
@cantrip: If I had my Neighborizer ability here, I'd definitely take the flip into account, but if I had to pick now, I might do you and vaimes again for similar reasons. Or if I didn't think either of us was a high NK target by day's end, I might do me and Tom, since I'm actually townReading him here, and now that I'm more familiar, he seems the most likely to cause trouble with me.
Tom: It uses passive language, doesn't actively engage the people you're refencing, and doesn't really engage, well, anyone. It's also not taking
credit" for the opinion. Like "I think there should be votes on kj" is active. "Hey, Silver/KK/whoever, why are you not voting for kj?"
Just sitting back and pondering why there are no votes without trying to make some.
ima need you to rethink this opinion which suggests that the towny thing for me to do is get people to vote you when i dont think youre scum
I like this response, but also understand where KJ's coming from because when I read Tom's post initially, I also thought he was advocating votes on KJ. That he was just vocalizing amazement or confusion that there weren't votes on KJ makes more sense.
while an unreliable one without meta involved, this is a scumtell
Wolves attach more importance to votes on them
I generally see that scumtell as more likely when a player is hyper-aware of the number of votes on them; KK being wrong on how close he was to L-2 was sort of a town indication to me. Possible that KK's aware of that perspective and trying to use it to his advantage, but...this specific response feels more likely to come from town than scum, imo.
It doesnt want to be interacted with
Like the vote though sigh
Also @megs
I literally havent bussed a buddy that wasnt already under substantial suspicion in actual years.
Once you figure out you can get away with being wrong (thanks occassionally awesome but wildly inconsistent town meta) theres no reason to not play to your win condition
Any of the votes on you currently feel any different than the usual "picking up votes for playstyle"?
Lol
Like, it was in significant amount a pretend scumread at the start. Ive said that, id expect everyone that knows me to at least not be surprised by that.
Him taking a vote early day 1 as completely serious and locking me as any alignment for it are... two things that anyone who knows me wouldnt do.
Its a fake read or hes swapping me in his head with another tom despite me being in >half the games hes ever played
I... I...
You do understand that you're saying his read has to be fake, but his read was that your read was fake, which it was, but he should have known it was fake, which he did?
I wasn't as sure as I said I was when I made the vote either, I expected that if you were town you would have backed off not dug in, and then you went and said I wouldn't do that as town and I know for a fact that's bull*****, I have the receipts from Barebones, the Org/CFC game where I scumread Visor on D1, and Star Trek MU IV when I got infracted for arguing against a bull***** read.
Idk shadow or vaimes should weigh in on this imo
So...
Lets get eachother infracted baby
(Not really @mods)
Its that hes acting like caught scum and faking a scumread of me because he trapped hinself in it with a bad reaction to a vote
No, no one else should waste any more time on this. You're both doing the exact same thing of trying to second third and fourth guess each other based on flimsy starting premises and exaggerated reads like some game of 3d chess using a half set of broken checkers and some loose buttons
Hes solidly <2X rand> to be scum thats as high as i go without flips and worldbuilding
I do know that i work in a much smaller range of certainty than most
kcc/kk
Shadow/kj/cantrip
Vez/rhand/megs
silver
Silver: *does basically nothing*
Tom: silver shouldn't feel this about vaimes (he doesn't)
Silver: Tom shouldn't think I'm scum for that (he doesn't, it's kinda fake)
Tom: silver shouldn't think I'm scum for that (he doesn't, it's kinda exaggerated)
Silver: Tom shouldn't think I wouldn't think that
Tom: silver shouldn't think I wouldn't think he'd think that
Silver: Tom shouldn't think I shouldn't think he wouldn't think I didn't think that
I think we're about 12 more steps down this now
We just got out of Hill House like, a few weeks ago where Chris said the same thing about me and was wrong
We've played how many games together with how many people saying "looks like caught scum" and being wrong 'cause I was town? and I'm supposed to believe you believe that?
Pretty sure it happens every game dude, or pretty close to it
It's a bad read. It's not a bad read for KK or KJ or Megs to have, or a bad read in a vacuum (though I'd argue it's way less accurate than people give it credit for). It's bad for you specifically and probably makes you a wolf. Just like Bare Bones.
When KJ brought up the same thing you did I was like, "hunh, maybe Tom could be town if he's not the only one who misunderstood the post, maybe it wasn't as clear as I thought" but then you went on with this nonsense fake meta of me acting like caught scum when you know this isn't a wolfy reaction for me.
You should play on DLP
It's 54.5% I can keep up with the stats. I actually prefer you using reasonable numbers over the 75 and 80 you and kk were throwing around earlier
Youre never gonna get a number <5% or >60% from me i understand statistics too well (and im not good enough at towning)
I definitely laughed at kk misunderstanding and then topping it
People who know each other too well, and who aren't entirely sincere with reads, but apparently don't know each other well enough to take that into consideration and just let things snowball
To catch up Shadow tomorrow: post 445
In the world where silver is town we both tried to gage eachother in some new way and <completely cocked it up quite frankly> by leveling ourselves and eachother so hard we created a Moment in Time that will effect how we read eachother forever
Which doesnt sound like the worst to me im having a blast and barely care about winning or being right anyway im just here to play some mafia woooo
Was a bit tilted earlier and trying to avoid that, but I don't <think> you're trying to tilt me intentionally regardless of your alignment, it's a me problem
Let the good times roll, it's just a game amirite?
Are we still talking about tom/Silver?
Please don't waste anymore time on him. You can laugh at me later if I'm wrong, but after accurately scumreading the hell out of him just last game, this is not his scumgame.
(Sorry DV)
What is this, ayaw?
Ima be less townie for a bit
Only reason we're still talking about this is I'm now tied at three votes with KK and Megs so maybe talk to him if you think we're both town since he's the one still pushing me rather than reverse
I've considered worlds where he's town a few times and game makes more sense to me if he's a wolf as of right now
If you get to the Rhand post you might see why I think it's like, tom/Rhand/+1, he goes "Yeah Silver's town and Tom's maybe a wolf but I think they're both town and KoolKoal is a wolf, also Megiddo slipped but I'll tell you about that next time byyyye"
(That is an exaggeration/caricature, of course, and not actually my read I want you to read the post)
Also worlds with Megs/KK together make almost no sense because they're both pushing me pretty strongly and tied wagons together, yeah? With my wagon basically dead they need a new counterwagon and aren't even looking for one though maybe they just don't think it's dead
And also with Megs/KK tied I kind of think Megs doesn't put me to tied with them unless they are partners but having both of them not looking for another wagon and pushing me is a lot of eggs in the basket like I just said
Votes are just moving weird and make the most sense if tom is a wolf driving my wagon and everyone else on it just doesn't know me that well while Rhand tries to distance from tom and push KK without voting him and the third is voting KK.
In worlds where tom is town it's like 1 in [KK/Megs] [1 on whichever of them is town] [1 bussing or off wagons or also voting on the not wolf not me wagon] at the time of Megs' vote on me which I guess could be but like
Point is if you're asking if I'm going to town read him just because everyone else is, no, that isn't going to happen.
Re: Killjoy's post he was casting some pretty heavy shade in my direction in a pretty weird way like taking the post he quoted to be directed entirely at him and like, misinterpreting weird things about what I posted to make me look worse. But I'm kind of cold on him now after his response to my response
Probably helps that wolf tom is trying to chain us together after my flip since KJ is his next suspect after I'm dead. Can already see it from spec chat: "whoops my bad I guess we were both town lol anyway that one Killjoy post was pretty bad since we're both town, even Silver agreed!"
So now here I am not-agreeing I guess.
Absolutely. Though I'm a little curious why you said less than 75 if 60 is the top of your scale? Isn't that a given then?
I'm iffy townlean on both of you, I don't think you're the most likely NKs, I know you'd actually use it (hopefully just for reading each other and maybe gambits, not riling up conspiracy theories)
This can't not be fake. Vote Tom
I also need to get my notes back up to snuff. I've been neglecting them the past couple days.
i have played a lot of games .
i cannot do anything for the language barrier . sorry .
i love neighbour chats too .
i want to lynch one of :
killjoy
shadowlance
rhand
cantripman
i think 2 or 3 wolves are hidden there .
Why lynch canttip? You had him as “pretty okay” before, and J don’t think he’s post since then.
When i said "obviously not 100%. Not even 75%" what i meant was
Uh
The words
Im pushing what i believe in my dude, not...
Things i actively dont?
What is this?
I liked the fire she used when KCC said she might've been told to attack you and I really don't think she has partners, or if she does they don't have day chat at minimum
Kind of get this sense like she's sort of plodding along making her own connections and reads and not relying on external help
Like, check out that PoE there's no way that's a list of mislunches she came up with with help from someone from MTGS lol. Putting the game on hard mode if those are mostly villagers, doesn't even have any current wagons in it.
I guess she would sort of fit that "Megs/KK/+1" world looking for a new wagon to save her partners but that's the realm of tinfoil for me at the moment so
Sorry.
The early posts by Vaimes bug me a bit. It almost seems like he is testing Emiko’s reliability publicly.
It might be meant as a joke, but if it is not, then the following makes KJ town:
@tom: Is that why you cast the Vaimes vote on page one? Or was that RVS?
And if it was a serious vote, what is your read on Vaimes now?
This post is also about Emiko:
Which bugs me too because twtbaw is an easy stance to take on a buddy when he does something openly scummy.
The way Silver jumps on that in #51 makes me think Silver and Vaimes/Emiko are not aligned.
KK’s vote on KCC in #56 is a good one: it is indeed suspicious that KCC votes Vaimes for avoiding RVS while she avoided it too.
Vezok’s entrance in #64, RVS voting without weighing in on anything that is going on, is bad.
In this post Vaimes seems to want to mimic tom’s open wolfing style from Modern Mafia:
Keeping this post in case Emiko flips scum for the rule of 3:
I like how on page 2 KCC ignores Silver’s push on her. Not a huge alignment tell (experienced scum know to ignore small pushes), but a good unalignment tell. If Silver was a buddy, KCC would react.
Conclusions after page 2:
Vaimes / Emiko maybe aligned
Silver/Vaimes, Silver/Emiko, Silver/KCC not aligned
Vaimes maybe scum
Vezok maybe scum
Shadow’s entry is pretty weak. An unexplained vote on tom and calling Emiko town for this:
If my page 1 Vaimes + Emiko gut turns out correct, then here’s a very plausible 3rd for that team.
All makes a lot of sense if scum has daychat and they decided to townread Emiko hard.
He does explain when asked in #124, but that reminds me a bit of Azrael in Modern mafia where he over-analyzed his buddy’s post to call him town early on when asked why the townread.
Cantrip agrees with Shadow in #137 though… maybe I’m overthinking this.
Or maybe not. Megs seems to have sniffed it too in #139.
Townpoints for Megs.
Anyways, only works if Shadow is scum with Emiko. Doesn’t help me read Shadow.
Vezok making a very low-impact post in #145 is bothersome.
#148 is one of those posts that triggered my gut on Vaimes on my first readthrough.
I like Megs again beginning page 4. Especially if Vaimes is scum.
#180 is a bad post by KK, who has been very low impact up till here.
Vezok spots that in #189. Townpoints for Vezok.
#191 is a good post by KJ and his town meta.
Tom’s #194 is pretty weak for a strong KK town read. Possible tom/KK aligned.
Which might make #195 a chainsaw because Silver just attacked KK and tom attacks Silver here.
This post where tom attacks me bothered me when I first saw it, but I couldn’t put my finger on it why.
Now I saw it: He says “in that world”, while what he accuses me of here (keeping my options open) has nothing to do with Silver or Vez. This is fake worldbuilding.
By the end of page 4 I see 2 different possible worlds:
Vaimes / Emiko / (Shadow)?
Tom / KK / ?
I feel way better about Megs than I did in my first read.
Townreads of various levels on KCC / Silver / KJ.
I thought I had enough time to go through the whole thread, but I spend 2 hours on this and should get back to preparing for my tour tomorrow.
I will continue this later.
Thanks for your input, but just you saying "unlikely" is mostly unconvincing. I'll take it under advisement, though.
I admit that my memory is not great, so I may be misremembering, but I generally remember Megiddo as more or less devil-may-care/does what he wants, and what I saw of town!him in Modern didn't change that. To make sure, I just reread his ISO from Modern, and this game he feels a LOT different. I'll go into more detail when I have a little more time, but here I've noticed a few posts where he almost feels like he's pandering, and his fluffposts are a LOT more abrasive than they were in Modern. Again, I'll do my best to point out specifics soon.
FTR, one of the things I did as scum early on that got me some unwanted attention was not following up on questions, so--unfortunately for this lovely town read on me from you--this isn't AI for me. I will go out of my way to follow up on questions no matter my alignment. But I like that you're pushing/poking.
This is a lot more persuasive than Shadow's "nah, bad tinfoil" response, but I also feel like Tom wouldn't have a problem breaking his own meta once in a while, especially for a long game advantage. That said...I was mostly in the "Tom more likely town than Silver" camp, and Silver has made some good posts recently...so it probably really is a bad tinfoil. I'll keep it in my back pocket and revisit as new evidence comes to light, but it's definitely feeling less likely.
If you're town, I apologize in advance, but this explanation really sounds like a fabricated rationale for backing off a bad push. In particular, your use of the word "supposed" there feels a bit like "oh yeah, how am I supposed to act as town?" And in general it's a very self-aware post. Maybe it's your playstyle, though? Would you say you're generally highly self-aware regardless of alignment? Have you been attacked for that before?
Is one of those secrets that I'm a sucker for mysteriously being town-read?
Meanwhile, you're feeling very similar to you in Modern, and I'm still feeling guilty for treating you so shabbily there, so you can be town for now, too.
I don't agree on the conclusion, but I like the process you went through to get there.
Just to be clear, define "similar reasons"?
I like this response, but also understand where KJ's coming from because when I read Tom's post initially, I also thought he was advocating votes on KJ. That he was just vocalizing amazement or confusion that there weren't votes on KJ makes more sense.
I generally see that scumtell as more likely when a player is hyper-aware of the number of votes on them; KK being wrong on how close he was to L-2 was sort of a town indication to me. Possible that KK's aware of that perspective and trying to use it to his advantage, but...this specific response feels more likely to come from town than scum, imo.
More when I have more time.