Anyway the only content so far in the thread is a somewhat of a role claim in thread which I am neutral on.
And Shadow saying that makes the person town, which I find kind of odd and a wolfy analysis given I think the approach to the role is pretty standard regardless of what alignment you are and that to me feels kind of obvious.
The scum would make plans argument feels weird to me? It's not like a crazy role like that would be unexpected in a game like this.
Like it feels more like saying something because you can / to generate content rather then a real read.
I think I am ok with this vote at least for now. I'll obviously see how things develop.
vote: Shadow
My problem with this post is that you accuse Shadow of generating content rather than giving a real read and then tack on “at least for now” and “I’ll obviously see how things develop”, which makes this read exactly what you are accusing Shadow of.
Ftr my vez town read is pretty darn strong. Like, off the table today, and willing to campaign against that wagon if it arose.
@Grape: I would consider those vastly different. I can lay out reasoning for something and be harsh, or pushy, or terse, or really any number of things. While being reasonable would be more along the lines of not making waves, or having talking points that make people nod along and go “yeah, that all makes sense.
I guess really it’s two entirely different facets of play.
@KJ: Fuwa is female FYI.
I can get on board with Tom’s Cantrip read, don’t think I’m that strong on it though.
I don't get the shadow town reads. Everything he said is reasonable, but that's not really a reason to town read him. Not really interested in trying to read shadow this early.
I think I like Vez embracing shadow over shadow embracing him. They could be buddies but I think it's much more likely that town!Vez feels like he got read correctly.
@Rhand what do you like from Shadow here?
I like that you can track the flow of his townie thought process through this. Step 1, caution regarding Shadow, respect for his abilities, registering that concern. Progresses naturally to reading the Vez situation/interaction, decisively rules out one alternative, in favor of a meta-based town read. So he's not hesitant to town clear in general, he's adjusting his town-reading willingness depending on his threat assessment of the player and the particular interactions at issue. Finally, follows up with a fairly intelligent and useful inquiry designed to springboard off the earlier concerns, signalling genuine interest in both the interaction and gathering opinions from others.
Textbook pro-town mindset.
This feels like Az knows Grape is town. Or he has Einstein IQ.
No one reads a post like this, thinks all of that and then simply says “I think Grape is town”.
Feels a bit more forced than he did in the last game we played together. I sense tension.
Also WIM a bit low this week, my son is out of daycare so I am on dad duty lol.
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@Cantrip: It’s gross for a couple of reasons. Being willing to lynch people you actively think are town (outside of last second no lynch avoidance, which is bad play on a game wide level for letting it get to that) is a scum mentality. Additionally, saying that up front means that there is no accountability; I can’t ask Vez tomorrow why he lynched someone today, which completely eliminates an avenue of generating a read on him.
As far as why he’s probably town is because he just page one gave out mechanical info, knowing that he was planning to do something that he likely doesn’t want to and knows has bad ramifications.
If this isn't reasonableness then I don't know what to call it.
I also read the wrong reasons into Rhand's town read apparently. I'm not sure I buy you town clearing someone as a move outside your scum range but it makes more sense than it being based on the reasoning provided for the clear.
This post bothers me a bit. Mostly because it says that shadow town cleared me which is far from what happened. Maybe I got it wrong, but it looked like shadow was giving a read based on the info I provided and that it could change at any time depending on what else happens in the game. In my experience, scum are more likely to believe someone has been town cleared than townies, because they think much more about this subject.
But at the end of the day, it's grape who posted this and he's been known to make weird posts as both alignments.
For the moment,
vote grapefruit
I think Vezok is town because of the claim, but holy balls that vote is atrocious and trying to grasp the logic behind it makes my head hurt. Arguing shadow town-clearing you vs giving a read basically boils down to semantics at this point and it just silly to cast a vote over.
Side note: Vezokpiraka isn't Void reincarnated is he?
This feels like Az knows Grape is town. Or he has Einstein IQ.
No one reads a post like this, thinks all of that and then simply says “I think Grape is town”.
I agree with Rhand here. Az's town case on Grapefruit actually makes sense in context, but I definitely had none of those impressions when I read the post in question the first time.
General notes:
- Not liking Azrael or KCC. Azrael for things mentioned above, KCC because I feel like Fuwa is low-hanging fruit right now and also something about her cheeky demeanor and vote hopping just reads weird to me. That's primarily gut, though.
- Is Axelrod's scum meta to lurk heavily? It's been literal years since I've played a game here but I seem to recall him being a fairly high-content poster as town.
- Killjoy makes me most uneasy of anyone so far. Post 52 has an assertive tone when asking KCC about the switch from Vezok to Fuwa, but then in 59 he doesn't acknowledge her response and says he agrees with her. There is something off about the way he approaches Fuwa in 59 as well... it's wishy-washy and feels like he's tossing a softball out there to see if anyone else picks it up and runs with it. Also, this:
So when you said "gross", it felt a little like shade. Because you said you thought it made him town, but you applied a negative connotation up front. Obviously you'd say I'm reading too much into this as either alignment; can you articulate why you'd apply a descriptor that paints Vez's action in a negative light if you think he's town?
I’m gonna start here cause it’s the heart of the matter. The idea of a player planning to lynch anyone and everyone that gets wagoned to lynch, including town reads is gross. I don’t like it, it’s not play I think is healthy (even though it can pan out, take Tom’s role in secret agent Mafia as an example). Absolutely agree that it’s a negative connotation. Saying it up front and recognizing that he might as well mention it ahead of time comes from a place that I would bet is townie 9/10 times.
I sorta like that you just slash across my attack; feels like you not wanting to waste time walling. That specifically makes me feel better about you.
I disagree in principle that a player saying "I need to be on every lunchwagon for [reasons]" is unhealthy, especially if that player shows their "real" thoughts as to whether their vote is because they suspect the wagon or if they're doing it just for the mechanics. I certainly don't find it "gross", but...ok.
Quote from Shadow »
If scum pull a role that says “you get x if you’re on the lynch wagon” then that scum player more than likely plans to adjust their play and reads so that you can make that work. Much less likely that you take the approach of being candid about it off the bat.
This feels like Az knows Grape is town. Or he has Einstein IQ.
No one reads a post like this, thinks all of that and then simply says “I think Grape is town”.
Bolded is quite possible, btw, from some of the reads I've seen Az be correct on. I think I believe that town!Az could make that read without knowing Grape's alignment.
KCC, if you were to name a scumteam for post-game credit, what would your best guess be?
I wouldn't yet. Even if I got them all right, I wouldn't deserve credit for random dumb luck. A good chunk of the game hasn't even really posted yet. I'm sure I'll try this before D1 ends though.
KCC, if you were to name a scumteam for post-game credit, what would your best guess be?
I wouldn't yet. Even if I got them all right, I wouldn't deserve credit for random dumb luck. A good chunk of the game hasn't even really posted yet. I'm sure I'll try this before D1 ends though.
Aww, c'mon, humor me. For random dumb luck credit, then. Who's the scum?
I now has regular internet again. This does not mean that I am going to be posting up a storm.
I am giving Vez the benefit of the doubt for now. This may be revised depending on what his full-claim is when he makes it. For now I will just say (sorry if someone else already said this somewhere) that you had best not go hammering people willy-nilly before we're actually ready to lynch someone. If someone gets to L-1 and you immediately drop the hammer just because, that will be an issue.
The most interesting thing I see right now is Killjoy saying he's got a Town-read on dking when dking hadn't posted anything of substance at all. So, what those people above me just said.
Unvote
Vote: Killjoy
What's up with that?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Upon reread (because I was ignoring this game for most of the weekend), I think I want to lunch Cantrip. His whole response to shadow re: vezok's claim being gross came off as disingenuous. It's pretty obvious imo that shadow wasn't shading vezok.
Unvote, vote Cantrip
Separately, I like page one shadow because he isn't trying to straddle the neutral zone.
Also Fuwa looks pretty good right now. I like that he's sticking to his guns on cantrip and actually enjoys having someone on his wagon. Idk why but it seems like a sincere thought that comes from town more often than from scum.
Please elaborate on why you feel that being voted for and happy about it is villager indicative.
I'm not seeing beeboy scum. Several people have expressed town reads on shadows and his first post as scum would be to go after shadow for almost no reason? Doesn't sound plausible atm.
KCC seems like scum to me. Just from the last post, the defense against az is meh and saying that she had a role as scum that was similar to mine and she approached it the same way doesn't really help anything except throw some very small shade at me. It would have been a much better comment if she told us what her role was exactly or at least give some info about it and explain why they approached it this way as scum.
vote KCC
No comment on the vote but I like the thought process as to how kcc should've approached the role analysis as town.
If this isn't reasonableness then I don't know what to call it.
I also read the wrong reasons into Rhand's town read apparently. I'm not sure I buy you town clearing someone as a move outside your scum range but it makes more sense than it being based on the reasoning provided for the clear.
I'm not sure what you're going for. It was a response to a question. Do you think shadow answers this differently as town?
Points to KJ for being the only person to really poke me. Even when I'm V/LA, people love beating the "wah wah Vaimes isn't posting he's totes scum" drum.
- Is Axelrod's scum meta to lurk heavily? It's been literal years since I've played a game here but I seem to recall him being a fairly high-content poster as town.
Once upon a time, maybe. These days my posting tends to ramp up as the game goes deeper and there is more stuff to talk about. I dislike day 1 flailing more and more as I grow older.
Also, was not actually lurking. Was on vacation.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I've looked at KJ's posts and am uninterested in this wagon.
My pet scumteam is Cantrip/Ax/???/???.
So, while I respect you putting in your 2 cents here, I would have actually preferred it if you would have kept this particular opinion to yourself until KJ came back and said something.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I've looked at KJ's posts and am uninterested in this wagon.
My pet scumteam is Cantrip/Ax/???/???.
So, while I respect you putting in your 2 cents here, I would have actually preferred it if you would have kept this particular opinion to yourself until KJ came back and said something.
This. But at the same time I was concerned for him not having an opinion after all those consecutive votes, so at least that got fixed.
Points to KJ for being the only person to really poke me. Even when I'm V/LA, people love beating the "wah wah Vaimes isn't posting he's totes scum" drum.
Also I haven't been town in forever and my usual scumplay is to not care about a single thing being posted in the thread.
Go easy on me.
Yuck, these posts are suuuuuuuper self-aware, especially when considering Vaimes just lost a game as scum where lurking was a primary reason why he got lynched.
Upon reread (because I was ignoring this game for most of the weekend), I think I want to lunch Cantrip. His whole response to shadow re: vezok's claim being gross came off as disingenuous. It's pretty obvious imo that shadow wasn't shading vezok.
Unvote, vote Cantrip
Separately, I like page one shadow because he isn't trying to straddle the neutral zone.
Did...did you just unvote me so you could revote me?
[unexpressed thought on Eagle 5 and plaid patterns]
dk, how often do you read games here? Because I don't think I've ever seen you before, much less played with you.
I can pretty much guarantee you have never played with me. My last game was in 2016 (I think) and I quit being fully active a year or so before that.
I don't often read games, but I kept up with Hill House after joining the Discord server a little while back and getting the itch to jump in a game again.
I can pretty much guarantee you have never played with me. My last game was in 2016 (I think) and I quit being fully active a year or so before that.
I don't often read games, but I kept up with Hill House after joining the Discord server a little while back and getting the itch to jump in a game again.
Okay. Hi, then.
I don't blame you for taking "Vaimes lurked and lost" away from that game, but I'm not that easy to read anymore. Do you have anything you want to ask me that might actually shed some light on my alignment for you/anyone?
I don't blame you for taking "Vaimes lurked and lost" away from that game, but I'm not that easy to read anymore. Do you have anything you want to ask me that might actually shed some light on my alignment for you/anyone?
I do, but I'm going to wait until Killjoy returns and answers first
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Alright i think i can confidently call cantrip town. No cloying seediness at all and he straight up hasnt addressed that leak in his scumgame yet afaik.
Fuwa and az also seem pretty town. Something something working their way into gameflow
Kcc response to az (something like "youre reading that post in the wrong tone") is the sort of confident, nonshowy "im town" brushoff that only the best scum can fake
Vez might be scum (with beeboy?) but shadows reasoning re: the claim is interesting
Why might Vez be scum? What is your analysis of Shadow's reasoning?
Think i wanna vote axel but this could just as easily be vaimes/chris/dkingsland/syren think theres some scum (other than me) that havent done anything yet
What are you saying here?
Not liking Tom at all. Read analysis in this post here is super quick, poorly reasoned, and sounds artificial.
Vote Tomslogger
Interested in the KJ wagon, further thoughts to follow after his response.
My problem with this post is that you accuse Shadow of generating content rather than giving a real read and then tack on “at least for now” and “I’ll obviously see how things develop”, which makes this read exactly what you are accusing Shadow of.
@Grape: I would consider those vastly different. I can lay out reasoning for something and be harsh, or pushy, or terse, or really any number of things. While being reasonable would be more along the lines of not making waves, or having talking points that make people nod along and go “yeah, that all makes sense.
I guess really it’s two entirely different facets of play.
@KJ: Fuwa is female FYI.
I can get on board with Tom’s Cantrip read, don’t think I’m that strong on it though.
This feels like Az knows Grape is town. Or he has Einstein IQ.
No one reads a post like this, thinks all of that and then simply says “I think Grape is town”.
@Shadow feel free to just sheep me on cantrip. What could possibly go wrong?
Feels a bit more forced than he did in the last game we played together. I sense tension.
Also WIM a bit low this week, my son is out of daycare so I am on dad duty lol.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
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Azrael, what's up with you frowning at Rhand's RVS vote post toward me, but then literally doing the exact same thing in your next post?
I think Vezok is town because of the claim, but holy balls that vote is atrocious and trying to grasp the logic behind it makes my head hurt. Arguing shadow town-clearing you vs giving a read basically boils down to semantics at this point and it just silly to cast a vote over.
Side note: Vezokpiraka isn't Void reincarnated is he?
I agree with Rhand here. Az's town case on Grapefruit actually makes sense in context, but I definitely had none of those impressions when I read the post in question the first time.
General notes:
- Not liking Azrael or KCC. Azrael for things mentioned above, KCC because I feel like Fuwa is low-hanging fruit right now and also something about her cheeky demeanor and vote hopping just reads weird to me. That's primarily gut, though.
- Is Axelrod's scum meta to lurk heavily? It's been literal years since I've played a game here but I seem to recall him being a fairly high-content poster as town.
- Killjoy makes me most uneasy of anyone so far. Post 52 has an assertive tone when asking KCC about the switch from Vezok to Fuwa, but then in 59 he doesn't acknowledge her response and says he agrees with her. There is something off about the way he approaches Fuwa in 59 as well... it's wishy-washy and feels like he's tossing a softball out there to see if anyone else picks it up and runs with it. Also, this:
These town reads don't add up. I had not yet posted anything outside of RVS, and I mentioned the weird KCC interactions above.
Unvote
Vote Killjoy
vote KillJoy
I feel like I'm missing something here. But I can wait to see where to this is going.
Can you expand on why you felt the need to make this add-on post?
I disagree in principle that a player saying "I need to be on every lunchwagon for [reasons]" is unhealthy, especially if that player shows their "real" thoughts as to whether their vote is because they suspect the wagon or if they're doing it just for the mechanics. I certainly don't find it "gross", but...ok.
Agreed. And thank you.
Can confirm: site is good; environment is fun.
FTR, I agree with you. Feels a little too easy.
Tom, I'm...guessing that you're not that obvious as scum when trying to pocket, but I'm still not just hopping in.
Bolded is quite possible, btw, from some of the reads I've seen Az be correct on. I think I believe that town!Az could make that read without knowing Grape's alignment.
/barn, but mostly for that premature dkings town read.
Vote Killjoy
KCC, if you were to name a scumteam for post-game credit, what would your best guess be?
Beeboy, First off, welcome. Second, do you find anyone suspicious other than Shadow? Any town leans?
Chris: That KCC back-off felt sorta easy. What did you like about her response?
Getting good town vibes from Vez, Rhand, and dKings.
I wouldn't yet. Even if I got them all right, I wouldn't deserve credit for random dumb luck. A good chunk of the game hasn't even really posted yet. I'm sure I'll try this before D1 ends though.
Vote Count 1.6
Killjoy (3): dkingsland967, Rhand, Cantripmancer
Grapefruit21 (2): vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
Cantripmancer (2): Fuwa, Vaimes
Fuwa (1): KittyCupCake
Rhand (1): Grapefruit21
Azrael (1): Killjoy
tomsloger (1): Axelrod
shadowlancerx (1): beeboy
Syrenz (1): Azrael
Axelrod (1): tomsloger
Abstain (2): Syrenz, shadowlancerx
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
Fuwa V/LA until 8/6/2019
Cantripmancer/Vaimes V/LA ends today
I am giving Vez the benefit of the doubt for now. This may be revised depending on what his full-claim is when he makes it. For now I will just say (sorry if someone else already said this somewhere) that you had best not go hammering people willy-nilly before we're actually ready to lynch someone. If someone gets to L-1 and you immediately drop the hammer just because, that will be an issue.
The most interesting thing I see right now is Killjoy saying he's got a Town-read on dking when dking hadn't posted anything of substance at all. So, what those people above me just said.
Unvote
Vote: Killjoy
What's up with that?
Unvote, vote Cantrip
Separately, I like page one shadow because he isn't trying to straddle the neutral zone.
I am town, and I'd say I'm more relaxed than having fun.
Once upon a time, maybe. These days my posting tends to ramp up as the game goes deeper and there is more stuff to talk about. I dislike day 1 flailing more and more as I grow older.
Also, was not actually lurking. Was on vacation.
I'm indifferent towards Az and mildly enjoy the shade he's getting.
KJ wagon is hm?
My pet scumteam is Cantrip/Ax/???/???.
Cantrip/Azrael/???/???
So, while I respect you putting in your 2 cents here, I would have actually preferred it if you would have kept this particular opinion to yourself until KJ came back and said something.
This. But at the same time I was concerned for him not having an opinion after all those consecutive votes, so at least that got fixed.
Go easy on me.
Ill keep it warm for you
Vote Killjoy
Yuck, these posts are suuuuuuuper self-aware, especially when considering Vaimes just lost a game as scum where lurking was a primary reason why he got lynched.
Vote Count 1.7
Killjoy (6): dkingsland967, Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, shadowlancerx
Grapefruit21 (2): vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
Cantripmancer (2): Fuwa, Vaimes
Fuwa (1): KittyCupCake
Rhand (1): Grapefruit21
Azrael (1): Killjoy
shadowlancerx (1): beeboy
Syrenz (1): Azrael
Abstain (1): Syrenz
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
Fuwa V/LA until 8/6/2019
[unexpressed thought on Eagle 5 and plaid patterns]
I forgot who I voted in RVS.
@dk: And?
dk, how often do you read games here? Because I don't think I've ever seen you before, much less played with you.
But since you've committed to the opinion: Why do you think that points to me being scum?
I can pretty much guarantee you have never played with me. My last game was in 2016 (I think) and I quit being fully active a year or so before that.
I don't often read games, but I kept up with Hill House after joining the Discord server a little while back and getting the itch to jump in a game again.
I don't blame you for taking "Vaimes lurked and lost" away from that game, but I'm not that easy to read anymore. Do you have anything you want to ask me that might actually shed some light on my alignment for you/anyone?
I do, but I'm going to wait until Killjoy returns and answers first
I think ive played with everyone in this game?
Maybe not kcc/syrenz but i recognize the names
Not that i remember enough from [random mashes] and 4 year old mtgs games for that to be useful in some cases...
I'll answer in full after work.
Current thoughts: 1-2 scum in dkingsland967, Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, shadowlancerx.
KCC would be more town but she unvoted.
With 6 votes on a wagon, it'd be odd to not find a scum in there, regardless of your alignment. That's not really saying anything.
Also, what unvote? The unvote of my RVS vote?
What are you asking?
Why might Vez be scum? What is your analysis of Shadow's reasoning?
Why Beeboy?
What are you saying here?
Not liking Tom at all. Read analysis in this post here is super quick, poorly reasoned, and sounds artificial.
Vote Tomslogger
Interested in the KJ wagon, further thoughts to follow after his response.
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