I'd eat several Mountains if Vaimes turns out to be scum. There's no way he rolled scum three games in a row, played two completely apathetic and comes in to the third one full of life and continues that facade for another day when his buddy died.
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I'd eat several Mountains if Vaimes turns out to be scum. There's no way he rolled scum three games in a row, played two completely apathetic and comes in to the third one full of life and continues that facade for another day when his buddy died.
ya well im still not lynching top-posting vaimes anyways at least not today
I'd eat several Mountains if Vaimes turns out to be scum. There's no way he rolled scum three games in a row, played two completely apathetic and comes in to the third one full of life and continues that facade for another day when his buddy died.
This time’s a bajillion.
@Cantrip: I was not moved by grapes 1910, so no.
As far as Tom, not sure why you would hint at mechanical influences as to why you think he’s scum and not share. If it’s strong enough to affect your read, I would hope it’s something you’d share, or it’s self resolvable, in which, why bring it up and pursue him?
Though I would be interested if "Conditional" was part of your role title. That actually goes for everyone.
Missed that you were asking everyone to chime in. I *do* have a condition/restriction on my abilities, and I don't find it odd that Chris claimed that "Conditional" is part of his role title.
Vez, thanks. I'd still love to hear what "bad" choices you think I've made (other than voting Tom when you thought it was pointless).
the problem with this though, is I spent most of last night going through Cantrip's iso, if this dude is a wolf, then kudos to him, regardless of my random hot takes on the slot, and earlier claims of him sounding manipulative, of which I still am unable to find the post I called him out on
I mean, not to shoot myself in the foot, but didn't you pretty much have the same feeling of me in Phantom? Do you feel like I'm *different* from there, then? (I never made any effort to figure out which post of mine you thought the second paragraph was manipulative because I knew it was a bad suspicion/attack; looking back now, it could have been 279, the post I made just before you posted your comment, or maybe 38 my first substantial post where I attacked Shadow for his "gross" usage. I can't really see "manipulative" from either of those posts' second paragraphs, but I'm not you.)
I'd eat several Mountains if Vaimes turns out to be scum. There's no way he rolled scum three games in a row, played two completely apathetic and comes in to the third one full of life and continues that facade for another day when his buddy died.
This has been a big factor for me, which is silly because it's such a bad argument...but it's still convincing.
Because I don’t want Chris to be lunched, whereas KJ I’m not as willing to fight for. Chris is the leading wagon, no?
Like realistically who is going to kill tom or Last with me?
I'll help you lunch Tom.
Serious question to all: Is there any way that a [restricted] night vig with multiple shots and a dayvig (1-shot or otherwise) both exist on the town team in this game?
As far as Tom, not sure why you would hint at mechanical influences as to why you think he’s scum and not share. If it’s strong enough to affect your read, I would hope it’s something you’d share, or it’s self resolvable, in which, why bring it up and pursue him?
Just saw this, and it's a sentiment that's probably going to be echoed now that I *have* voiced my reasons. In response, I can only ask that you trust that I debated a LOT on whether or not to go down this path, had to have several serious chats with the voices in my head, and finally decided it was worth the risk.
@Cantrip: “Any way” yes. Obviously with incomplete setup knowledge it may or may not be feasible.
*sigh* Ok, how likely do you think it is, then, with what you know?
In a vacuum, I’d say you shooting tom would be reasonable from your POV. With how Tom approached this day and performing the kill after going through the process...I think he’s town. I’m not on board with chris’ “well he shot a backup when he didn’t have to” reason, but I think his entire approach is good.
Though I would be interested if "Conditional" was part of your role title. That actually goes for everyone.
Missed that you were asking everyone to chime in. I *do* have a condition/restriction on my abilities, and I don't find it odd that Chris claimed that "Conditional" is part of his role title.
Vez, thanks. I'd still love to hear what "bad" choices you think I've made (other than voting Tom when you thought it was pointless).
the problem with this though, is I spent most of last night going through Cantrip's iso, if this dude is a wolf, then kudos to him, regardless of my random hot takes on the slot, and earlier claims of him sounding manipulative, of which I still am unable to find the post I called him out on
I mean, not to shoot myself in the foot, but didn't you pretty much have the same feeling of me in Phantom? Do you feel like I'm *different* from there, then? (I never made any effort to figure out which post of mine you thought the second paragraph was manipulative because I knew it was a bad suspicion/attack; looking back now, it could have been 279, the post I made just before you posted your comment, or maybe 38 my first substantial post where I attacked Shadow for his "gross" usage. I can't really see "manipulative" from either of those posts' second paragraphs, but I'm not you.)
I'd eat several Mountains if Vaimes turns out to be scum. There's no way he rolled scum three games in a row, played two completely apathetic and comes in to the third one full of life and continues that facade for another day when his buddy died.
This has been a big factor for me, which is silly because it's such a bad argument...but it's still convincing.
Because I don’t want Chris to be lunched, whereas KJ I’m not as willing to fight for. Chris is the leading wagon, no?
Like realistically who is going to kill tom or Last with me?
I'll help you lunch Tom.
Serious question to all: Is there any way that a [restricted] night vig with multiple shots and a dayvig (1-shot or otherwise) both exist on the town team in this game?
Serious question to all: Is there any way that a [restricted] night vig with multiple shots and a dayvig (1-shot or otherwise) both exist on the town team in this game?
I don't think I've ever seen a vig cc. I'm assuming there's a reason this wasn't resolved with night actions?
@Cantrip: “Any way” yes. Obviously with incomplete setup knowledge it may or may not be feasible.
*sigh* Ok, how likely do you think it is, then, with what you know?
In a vacuum, I’d say you shooting tom would be reasonable from your POV. With how Tom approached this day and performing the kill after going through the process...I think he’s town. I’m not on board with chris’ “well he shot a backup when he didn’t have to” reason, but I think his entire approach is good.
I mostly agree, other than not letting DK post again before shooting him. I've actually identified several things I think *could* point to town Tom, but I just feel like the body count gets too high too fast. Hypothetical math I'm working with right now is:
Assume 12 town, 4 scum
D1 mislunch, NK goes through (10/4)
D2 dayvig town, mislunch, NK goes through, vig on town (6/4)
D3 is LYLO in a 16 player game.
All that is turned on it's head if Tom is scum who gained a vig shot from Az dying.
D1 scumlunch, NK goes through (11/3)
D2 dayvig town, mislunch, NK goes through, vig on town (7/3)
D3 mislunch, NK goes through (5/3)
D4 even if we mislunch and the NK goes through (3/3), a successful vig on scum that Night puts us back at 3/2 for D5.
KCC, it's a bit more complicated than this, but on a play level, I decided the likelihood that Tom is scum was high enough that pushing for his lunch toDay would result in a better informed vig shot toNight. Plus, given the other elements of my role, drawing the NK wouldn't be the end of the world.
@KCC
why would this be resolved with night actions? its only day 2, and Tom just claimed today???
I dont understand how to evaluate this, if Cantrip is a wolf, he literally just shoots Tom tonight
but so does he has town? like Why is Cantrip being so hesitant, but still ok with voting him?
can they both exist as town, yes?
why does everyone have restrictions...
Serious question to all: Is there any way that a [restricted] night vig with multiple shots and a dayvig (1-shot or otherwise) both exist on the town team in this game?
Okay, so, the answer is a qualified yes* What Shadow said. I feel it is less likely than one or the other, but not impossible.
I'm going through the meat of Tom's decision-making process now.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KCC, it's a bit more complicated than this, but on a play level, I decided the likelihood that Tom is scum was high enough that pushing for his lunch toDay would result in a better informed vig shot toNight.
I agree with pushing that way, but if it's not gaining traction, I think I'd have looked for one of the other scum and just shot him.
Not that I'm doubting the CC, or asking for more explanation but... IDK
Setupwise, my shot cant really be messed with via manipulatives (rb, delay that megs claimed, etc) but BP would be good against me or cantrip. So would say thats most likely scum role.
@Cantrip: Just remembered Zero Escape had a conditional repeatable vig, as well as a vengeful kill, both on town (scum had a full BP). So it’s not impossible.
I have other reasons why tom is scum that I will not be discussing but will eventually come out in the open regardless of who does what.
Did these other reasons get expressed yet?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, looking back the scummiest thing about Tom's DK shot was how fast he did it after the claim. But that was pretty scummy.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ftr, firmly against claiming there @cantrip
Shooting me is fine (unless id hit scum prolly) but no reason to out yourself
In the future or whatever
FTR (to both of these comments), I'm definitely experienced enough to agree with both of you, so please assume that it's just more complicated than that.
Hrm, is this how scum!Tom responds to a cc? Meekly, and with advice for his attacker? Blah.
If we're not lunching Tom, then Grape and Chris are where I'd like to push. He probably still needs to be sorted, but perhaps not toDay. And boo on me for not better assessing the non-likelihood of two town vigs.
@cantrip and last im traveling through tomorrow evening so i’m not going to go into depth rn but i already laid out my thoughts on the things we were talking about. if you have specific questions i can clarify sure but it feels like neither of you really read what i said.
So you DO think Az was coaching Syrenz. Agree to disagree, I guess.
thinking a bit more here, why am i on your vig shortlist exactly?
Mostly for Beeboy's posts, especially the way he treated Az's claim (being ok with it, then casting shade on it when the wagon didn't dissolve, then missing the Tron land drop when he should have been looking for it). Your posts have been pretty straightforward, which in and of itself is ok verging on mildly concerning (only partially kidding).
Also, I am buying a Casper! It's the hybrid version. I think they were just in the right place at the right time though and I was too exhausted to do any more shopping so I just said, fine, I'll take this one. It does seem nice though. We shall see.
I'd appreciate hearing from you on this choice, as we'll likely be staring down a similar barrel soon and have been considering Casper or Purple.
Scum Tom doesn't make a lot of sense equity wise there, especially with me by the way. If you are saying tom's shot makes him lose points but are still voting him I don't understand. The play there for a scum Tom is to keep moving along and forcing claims. Backup is not an ideal prize for a scum team to shoot with their vig and the decision was made rashly. If you are going to fake a rash decision on a member of town I find it very likely he could have found a softer and stronger target than dkings, even if you live in a world where I am scum.
It didn't have a good result but I don't see the scum angle for shooting the backup.
This is a very insightful post. Slightly unnerved, as I'm wondering if scum!you actually makes this post with town!Tom. A Tom pivot here would be an easy direction to push in, and scum!you pointing this out makes no sense if Tom's town. Is this a "both Chris and Tom scum or neither" indicator?
Along those lines, mild +town to Tom for the GINORMOUS lack of thread activity between 1773 and 1776. Tom asks for thoughts on a votal in 1773, then highlights a few other votals in 1774. Chris posts 1775 a little while later. And then there's almost 21 hours until 1776. If Tom were scum, I'd think a buddy would try to jumpstart conversation, probably in the direction Tom wanted it to go in when he posted that query.
On the flip side, Tom, why didn't you give DK a chance to post more before firing?
Also Grapefruit why are you voting for Meg as a starting point when he has already claimed? What was your aim with that vote?
To pressure him and start sorting the fuwa wagon/nowhereland votes, I hadn't seen the claim.
Wut? How had you not seen the claim by the time you made the post before this one?
Grape, not only have you strongly white knighted KJ, but I feel like you've almost completely put me on ignore unless I ask you a question. You don't have any questions or concerns about/for me? I'm just that town to you?
Vote Grape
I'm just having trouble following your thought processes a lot this game. Was I not clear from the start that I was suggesting that Az was coaching Syrenz? What made you think I was suggesting anything else?
Im not fully sure why this matters but according to my flavor i couldnt shoot til day 2 because i need a creature in play to attack for lethal.
I assume that creature is
excuse if this was covered but... you would have had the kill locked D2 no matter what? and it would have stuck around with you through the rest of the game?
and you could have sat on it but instead chose to reveal it right away Day 2?
Vezok is super unlikely because he counter-claimed his own partner?
This is something Ive thought a bit about. If scum have multiple most type rolls, and suspect the game is heavy on that, this would be a really smart and safe play. The thing keeping me from that paranoia is Vezoks early soft claim, which just makes it all so unlikely.
There is no world where I'm scum with Azrael and bus him early. Like what the **** do I gain? My ability doesn't work cause I have to be on a town wagon, we lose probably one of the most powerful scum roles and one of the most powerful players. I know I take dumb risks sometimes, but they're all calculated. There's no operation to apply in this situation where my hypothetical scumteam comes out on top.
Even then you'd have to discount my incredibly townie game thus far which I guess you can if you're scum.
So yeah, killjoy is just scum and needs death.
@Cantrip: day kill reset votes. Last votecount had you as not voting. That makes the post much less weird.
@people voting tom: You should stop. There is no way we are lynching a proven day vig with a similar activation to dead scum.
I personally think you are great mafia player with good insights most of the time. Sorry if I come off as mocking. I'm just doing it for the joke.
Thanks, I guess. Sorry I flipped my lid a little. Long day, not that that excuses emotional outbursts.
Quote from Vez »
But you can't vote someone who is by all definitions pretty unlikely to be scum on day 2 and claim hidden role info and that we should all follow you when there are other wagons with a better chance of catching scum.
I'm actually NOT saying you should all follow me on this one. I was way more confident that Az was scum than I am that Tom is. I'm just saying that I DO have reasons, I'm just not willing to share those reasons yet.
Quote from Vez »
So the fact that you're doing so many things that in my mind are pretty bad plays makes me think you are scum, because I know you're a good player. Same as Az.
Can you actually articulate what "many things" I've done that are "pretty bad plays"? Because I'm feeling pretty good about myself so far, probably why I'm feeling so frustrated that multiple players are just dismissing my thoughts.
How long should i have dragged it out? At this point ive heard i should have waited for days, that i hijacked the day and made it about me, that i should have yoloed, that i should have shot *this person* because *this arbitrary votecount*
I read the az wagon. I isoed my main suspects. I asked for engagement. I picked my own arbitrary votecounts to put stock in.
And i shot town.
Cant win em all.
I don't mind you making up your own mind. And I can actually see your thought process to get to Dkings. But if you're town, you didn't KNOW he was scum when you took the shot. It's just frustrating that we get neither his reads (I know, dead townie thoughts aren't the most valuable, but they're still a perspective that's nice to have) or additional information on what his ability did. It just felt premature, and like it wouldn't have cost you much to have a tiny bit more patience. *I* certainly didn't feel like you'd hijacked the thread; a dayvig shot should be a process.
I am at a crossroads and need to figure out what direction I want to go in with a decision. In the meantime...
Grape, pretend you're Town Vengeful Ghost and when you die you get a 1-shot vig you can use from beyond the grave. You get mislunched toDay; who dies toNight? Why?
Chris, can you also indicate what card is related to your ability?
Megiddo, I'm not sure I understand why you claimed who you protected knowing that you were delayed. Wouldn't it be better in that situation to claim the protective role and that you were delayed, but not specify who your target was to increase the chances that scum tried to kill Vaimes toNight and were prevented?
Vaimes, why does "too many people [you] want to kill...pushing Chris" equate to you moving your vote from Wisp to KJ? Why not push Tom, even if your scum read on him is half-boiled?
Yes I messed up. If I were doing it again I would have claimed only that I am a protective role and that my ability was Delayed. I tried to withold some info for strategic reasons but withheld the wrong bit...
... But I kind of explained all of that already at the time. Why are you asking me this?
I really want to vote Vaimes, his meta smokescreen is starting to fade
two votes on Tom, a train that I don't think his happening imo, just feels like
an easy and safe train for wolves to vote on, a train that will most likely flip town, as
well as a train no one would get blamed for if it was to flip blue
Voting Tom today just feels so wolfy
P.S: There were two votes now there's just Cantrip
about 70% chance that one of Vaimes or Cantrip is a wolf
the problem with this though, is I spent most of last night going through Cantrip's iso, if this dude is a wolf, then kudos to him, regardless of my random hot takes on the slot, and earlier claims of him sounding manipulative, of which I still am unable to find the post I called him out on
normally I would say someone being wishy-washy with their votes is +town points as most wolves don't throw their votes around, but not with vaimes
I could see myself going back to Killjoy, but now I am questioning my own read on him, maybe Grape has got the right idea with Killjoy
eyes emoji
on this topic, vaimes do you remember any old games where you were scum and I was town? I vaguely remember that happening once but I can't remember it.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
@cantrip (i missed something above) one more clarification: are you suggesting that my posts Today prior to the dayvig made you more interested in having me shot than your baseline interest you had just from bboy?
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I don't get the Az wagon. Cantrips pretty much seems to be a direct response to 522 I guess? I don't know what Shadow and KCC are voting him for. Does 564 have a typo or am I dumb? LW's is downright scummy.
Vig kill tron please. Thank you. Role feels wrong on the same axis Axel mentions. 3 one shots that the last can't be used till N6 is insane even if it fits the flavor.
Ohhh hmmm... One per phase makes more sense. Why haven't you activated it yet then? Are they announced that you are playing them or just that they are played?
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Like realistically who is going to kill tom or Last with me?
@Cantrip: I was not moved by grapes 1910, so no.
As far as Tom, not sure why you would hint at mechanical influences as to why you think he’s scum and not share. If it’s strong enough to affect your read, I would hope it’s something you’d share, or it’s self resolvable, in which, why bring it up and pursue him?
Vez, thanks. I'd still love to hear what "bad" choices you think I've made (other than voting Tom when you thought it was pointless).
I mean, not to shoot myself in the foot, but didn't you pretty much have the same feeling of me in Phantom? Do you feel like I'm *different* from there, then? (I never made any effort to figure out which post of mine you thought the second paragraph was manipulative because I knew it was a bad suspicion/attack; looking back now, it could have been 279, the post I made just before you posted your comment, or maybe 38 my first substantial post where I attacked Shadow for his "gross" usage. I can't really see "manipulative" from either of those posts' second paragraphs, but I'm not you.)
See below.
This has been a big factor for me, which is silly because it's such a bad argument...but it's still convincing.
I'll help you lunch Tom.
Serious question to all: Is there any way that a [restricted] night vig with multiple shots and a dayvig (1-shot or otherwise) both exist on the town team in this game?
god do I hate mechanics heavy games
I'd support a Last wagon, but not as a counterwagon to chris
I don't think I've ever seen a vig cc. I'm assuming there's a reason this wasn't resolved with night actions?
Assume 12 town, 4 scum
D1 mislunch, NK goes through (10/4)
D2 dayvig town, mislunch, NK goes through, vig on town (6/4)
D3 is LYLO in a 16 player game.
All that is turned on it's head if Tom is scum who gained a vig shot from Az dying.
D1 scumlunch, NK goes through (11/3)
D2 dayvig town, mislunch, NK goes through, vig on town (7/3)
D3 mislunch, NK goes through (5/3)
D4 even if we mislunch and the NK goes through (3/3), a successful vig on scum that Night puts us back at 3/2 for D5.
KCC, it's a bit more complicated than this, but on a play level, I decided the likelihood that Tom is scum was high enough that pushing for his lunch toDay would result in a better informed vig shot toNight. Plus, given the other elements of my role, drawing the NK wouldn't be the end of the world.
why would this be resolved with night actions? its only day 2, and Tom just claimed today???
I dont understand how to evaluate this, if Cantrip is a wolf, he literally just shoots Tom tonight
but so does he has town? like Why is Cantrip being so hesitant, but still ok with voting him?
can they both exist as town, yes?
why does everyone have restrictions...
meh
I'm going through the meat of Tom's decision-making process now.
I agree with pushing that way, but if it's not gaining traction, I think I'd have looked for one of the other scum and just shot him.
Not that I'm doubting the CC, or asking for more explanation but... IDK
Unvote Vote tom
Unvote, vote tom
Infect
Town dayvig
That was my only shot
Not sure it matters.
Setupwise, my shot cant really be messed with via manipulatives (rb, delay that megs claimed, etc) but BP would be good against me or cantrip. So would say thats most likely scum role.
/shrug
Fine with my vote/counterwagon.
Shooting me is fine (unless id hit scum prolly) but no reason to out yourself
In the future or whatever
Is champs still going?
Would you do an iso of him and look for Az interactions on his end and tell me what you see?
let me catch up. i had a couple of threads going with people I need to follow up on as well... stay tuned.
Anyway I'm still not lynching tom now when kj is here.
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FTR (to both of these comments), I'm definitely experienced enough to agree with both of you, so please assume that it's just more complicated than that.
Hrm, is this how scum!Tom responds to a cc? Meekly, and with advice for his attacker? Blah.
If we're not lunching Tom, then Grape and Chris are where I'd like to push. He probably still needs to be sorted, but perhaps not toDay. And boo on me for not better assessing the non-likelihood of two town vigs.
But honestly Cantrip being a vig makes my reasons less relevant, sooo.
excuse if this was covered but... you would have had the kill locked D2 no matter what? and it would have stuck around with you through the rest of the game?
and you could have sat on it but instead chose to reveal it right away Day 2?
Why did you do that?
I don't remember why I quoted this.
I DO remember why I quoted this.
Yes I messed up. If I were doing it again I would have claimed only that I am a protective role and that my ability was Delayed. I tried to withold some info for strategic reasons but withheld the wrong bit...
... But I kind of explained all of that already at the time. Why are you asking me this?
eyes emoji
on this topic, vaimes do you remember any old games where you were scum and I was town? I vaguely remember that happening once but I can't remember it.
looks alright this opinion certainly is convenient if hes scum...[/spoiler]
Grape can die.
Vote Count 2.9
Sir Chris (3): tomsloger, Grapefruit21, Lastwhisper
tomsloger (3): Cantripmancer, KittyCupCake, Vaimes
Killjoy (2): Sir Chris, vezokpiraka
Lastwhisper (1): Grapefruit21
Grapefruit21 (1): shadowlancerx
Abstain (4): Axelrod, Fuwa, Killjoy, Megiddo
With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Sunday, September 1st, at 11:59 PM.
Seeking a replacement for Fuwa.
Killjoy V/LA until the 31st
Are our roles together as strong as a straight up vig?
Seems like were in role madness here dont find splitting up a vig too unusual.
Scum could have a third killing role. Maybe one of az's if we're lucky
Nor would i in the future
...
these wagons are really anemic and I don't like any of them. :\
Please do not mention anything about the circumstances of this replacement.
Maybe Dangan Ronpa? I think I was scum in that.
I'll investigate this.