So @Wisp, tell me more about how you suddenly switched from not being able to read tom to being the expert on reading tom less than a month ago without even seeing any flips from him.
If you are trying to get me to vote him, it's definitely not happening today
And yes I'm a walking ball of contradictions, tell me something I don't know
Also don't quote what I say in discord is has nothing to do with this game
As for specific reasons why, maybe I'll get to them or maybe I wont
I'm at work currently, and I did not shade you, I'm stating what I saw, the lack of deeper explanation doesn't make it shade, there is no reason to be hedging on all these players, with could be town, or less likely to be town or probably town
So @Wisp, tell me more about how you suddenly switched from not being able to read tom to being the expert on reading tom less than a month ago without even seeing any flips from him.
/shrug
Imagine lynching a player you define as not really towny nor not really Wolfy, because you are unable to read him
Also don't quote what I say in discord is has nothing to do with this game
The discord posts were from discussions of other games. Pointing out that you have a track record of saying that you can't confidently read tom is not remiss.
So @Wisp, tell me more about how you suddenly switched from not being able to read tom to being the expert on reading tom less than a month ago without even seeing any flips from him.
/shrug
Imagine lynching a player you define as not really towny nor not really Wolfy, because you are unable to read him
Note the lack of the word "just" before the word "because". There are other reasons to lynch tom. They've been stated by several other players. Including two notable mechanical reasons, and lack of anything that makes him townie this game.
there is no reason to be hedging on all these players, with could be town, or less likely to be town or probably town
Oh. I'm sorry I didn't format a readlist (that wasn't even specifically MY reads, just a rough summary of where the thread seemed to be) your way, sir. There's a readlist from you:
That's was your interpretation of my post, I'm saying that there isnt really much of a reason to be looking at the players who have produced adaquete content and who have been consistent today when two scum are dead, sure anyone you said can be scum but wtf, it's a waste of time to be thinking about it today, unless you find reason to believe the people in the PoE have a chance of being town for w/e reason
KCC and vezok have fallen off but I'll be damned if this dude counter claims his own partner on day 1 for literally no reason
Scummiest of revealed two killing roles means jack *****
Damning from a flavor perspective? What do you mean?
Scummiest of revealed two killing roles means jack *****
Damning from a flavor perspective? What do you mean?
If there's 2 KP on town this game, then this game is firmly town-sided in design, unless scum roles are WTFOMGBBQ bonkers. I firmly don't believe that to be the case, based on what we've seen.
As for damning from a flavor perspective, it is quite possible that the flavour reflects alignment, in which case Infect explicitly as a false claim makes a lot of sense. Even if flavour does not reflect alignment, if someone can determine abilities from flavour (which is certainly possible), then it's possible that his actual flavour makes it clear that he would not be a 1-shot Day-vig. For example, if he was Jund instead of Infect, he could be a Scum Strongman with a 1-shot Dayvig.
Your read of tom has no support. It is going along with a previous status quo. Here's a start on your mentions of tom that are relevant to a read on him:
Day 3
As for specific reasons why, maybe I'll get to them or maybe I wont
Tom, who in my book has been pretty townie
I refuse to believe that Tom managed to pull a claim out of his ass
no reason Why Tom even has to fake claim, unless someone can come up with a reason for that
Is it still 10x more likely that Cantrip’s info got manipulated somehow
I'd rather just evaluate Tom on his play over mechanics
Given that Tom is highly against bussing
the only world where wolf me hammers wolf!Grape, is one where Tom is also a wolf
Day 2:
dont think I am ever voting Tom today
I dont think they have to be w/v, but if hypothetically speaking I believe that to be the case, then Tom is always a wolf over Cantrip, based solely on content and his interactions with Azreal
Tom as a wolf can literally get away with just yoloing a shot like I don't see the reason of him going through all this analysis if he is a wolf...
I get what Cantrip is saying but I'm still not voting Tom today, Cantrip can shoot him anyways in the case we are wrong
two votes on Tom, a train that I don't think his happening imo, just feels like
an easy and safe train for wolves to vote on, a train that will most likely flip town, as
well as a train no one would get blamed for if it was to flip blue
Voting Tom today just feels so wolfy
still not voting Tom
@vaimes
talk to me about your Tom scum read
First off, your posts on him actually look more scum on scum than anything.
But his posts on you in literally any game always look like he just doesn't really think you're worth his time regardless of alignment, so that's not really helpful.
Assuming that you're town (which is an assumption I'm willing to make for the time being), you've actually said very little about tom's alignment since Day 2 near his shot, just that you don't want to lynch him, that you don't want to lynch him...
Also, he's explicitly stated that bussing is not something he's against (not that it ever really was implied that it was by anyone other than you) so that's a load of bull.
So where does this confidence come from in Tom being town? Or is it just that you don't want him to be lynched? After reading about half of your ISO, I absolutely would have no surprise and no qualms with lynching Tom and you and the two of you flipping scum together. It's a quite plausible world given the sheer lack of any suspicion, or even much in the way of interaction from you to him.
I don't think you're actually scum. I think you're just misguided on tom because of some bad reason that probably fundamentally has nothing to do with the game. Stockholm Syndrome comes to mind.
But one way or another, you continue to dodge the core question:
WHERE are these TOWNIE posts by tom, that he WOULDN'T make as SCUM?
If you are town, then you're defending someone scummy, who you explicitly cannot read, for no reason.
A little, but don't worry, it's not out of my scum range. <- Look, I can do it too! That doesn't actually make me a good player, and certainly doesn't make me town.
That's was your interpretation of my post, I'm saying that there isnt really much of a reason to be looking at the players who have produced adaquete content and who have been consistent today when two scum are dead, sure anyone you said can be scum but wtf, it's a waste of time to be thinking about it today, unless you find reason to believe the people in the PoE have a chance of being town for w/e reason
I haven't really been looking at any of those people today, at least not to any serious degree. My lynch pool for today is, as it's been for a while:
Like, 1-shot Dayvig actual flavour hypotheticals are kind-of a waste of time, but I could make a lot of them, since there's plenty of space in which to fake claim, and quite possibly plenty of reason to do so.
Any actual likelihood of a secret redirector or a role-tailor instead a fake claim is non-existent.
If anything, it's more likely that tom's false claim came from knowing that Cantrip was a claim vig, either from direct information through a role cop or other scum knowledge, or from a lucky guess on the part of scum. Because OF COURSE Cantrip would try to kill tom the following night after seeing a day-vig shot if Cantrip's a town claim-vig.
In the end, the mechanical likelihood that tom lied about his role is extremely high. And to ignore that is fundamentally anti-town.
@Wisp: I'm not even asking you to prove a negative. For most of the game, you have said that you are not lynching tom. That means that you are either:
A) Town and confident that he is town, but cannot provide a concrete reason.
or
B) His scum-buddy.
Given that it appears to be the former, either there is evidence that he is in the form of townie posts and actions, or you are just wrong and he is actually scum, who you are defending.
@Wisp And I still have yet to see any concrete townie posts provided as evidence for this defense of tom, any concrete townie posts that suggest that it's reaching, any posts that are outside of tom's scumrange. Until I see those, as far as I am concerned, you are pulling your read of tom out of nowhere. If you aren't tom's scumbuddy, then it's a delusional, self-admitted to be anti-town choice on your part to townread tom.
Osie can we pretty please lynch KJ today so I can ponder on the game state tonight with the assumption he is flipping scum? ty
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LMAO
There is zero benefits to me hard defending Tom here if he is my partner, especially given in past games where I've tried to power wolf and failed miserably
If this is lylo and I am refusing to re-evaluate the game-state, than yes, you can actively say that I am going against my won-con, but regardless of Tom's alignment, lynching him or not lynching him today doesn't lose us the game
I expect a flavor heavy game, to have the flavor that doesn't out the wolves if they claim it, or in that case give them a fake claim, and in this game, probably not a deck that can be found out as a lie via mechanical abilities, so thats gunna be a no from me
I think the reaching we have to do to convince ourselves that Tom is lying is stupid
Outside of the rest of that post, which is already a trip in and of itself, this is next-level insanity. There's no reaching. Right now, your belief is that the game consists of:
Megs - Town 1-shot Bulletproof Doctor
Rhand - Town Vote Granter
dkingsland - Town Backup
Vezok - Town Town-Lynch Random JOAT
tomsloger - Town 1-shot Dayvig
Cantripmancer - Town Claim Vigilante
There is zero benefits to me hard defending Tom here if he is my partner, especially given in past games where I've tried to power wolf and failed miserably
This isn't a real argument against anything. It's the same sort of false premise that you were doing earlier. Your argument contains a vacuous hypothesis.
There's zero benefit to you hard-defending him as town either.
I expect a flavor heavy game, to have the flavor that doesn't out the wolves if they claim it, or in that case give them a fake claim, and in this game, probably not a deck that can be found out as a lie via mechanical abilities, so thats gunna be a no from me
I hope you understand that one of the main functions of a claim vigilante or similar roles on town is to catch false claims. If not, then you don't understand what a town claim vigilante or town role cop actually does.
lmao How the hell am I suppose to make a counter-argument to setup balance when I know jack ***** about that
anyways you can keep posting, I am ignoring this thread for the rest of the night, I worked 8 hours, and I didn't expect to get into any real-time arguments when I got home
Osie can we pretty please lynch KJ today so I can ponder on the game state tonight with the assumption he is flipping scum? ty
I'd rather lynch KJ tomorrow because it's infinitely harder for him to slip out of being lynched tomorrow than it is for tom to do so based on the current game state. Pretty much, I don't know that I will be able to conjure enough WIM tomorrow if tom continues to slip through town's fingers.
first off, in any world, I would think a claim vigilante is more wolfy than town, secondly it doesnt have to be there for the purpose of being a ******* cop, if we want to talk setup balance, its dumb to make it so mafia has to fake claim flavor to avoid being outted, and then make a role that can then catch them if they lie
secondly it doesnt have to be there for the purpose of being a ******* cop, if we want to talk setup balance, its dumb to make it so mafia has to fake claim flavor to avoid being outted, and then make a role that can then catch them if they lie
lmao How the hell am I suppose to make a counter-argument to setup balance when I know jack ***** about that
"My townread on tom is uninformed and has zero basis in the game, but I like tom's beard so he's town." <- Lastwhisper, 9/7/2019
LMAO
I am not going to continue this circular argument for now, since I cant recall any reasons that prove he's more likely town over mafia without rereading, which I really do not want to do right now
its dumb to make it so mafia has to fake claim flavor to avoid being outted, and then make a role that can then catch them if they lie
Besides, it doesn't matter if they have to fake claim or not. Town has infinitely lower motivation to fake claim in this game. Your argument of "tom isn't fakeclaiming" presumes that tom is town, then says that he isn't fakeclaiming, rather than presuming that tom could be either alignment, saying "Hey, there's a fakeclaim, a counterclaim, and no inherently town behavior" and catching openly caught scum.
lmao How the hell am I suppose to make a counter-argument to setup balance when I know jack ***** about that
"My townread on tom is uninformed and has zero basis in the game, but I like tom's beard so he's town." <- Lastwhisper, 9/7/2019
LMAO
I am not going to continue this circular argument for now, since I cant recall any reasons that prove he's more likely town over mafia without rereading, which I really do not want to do right now
The only reason this is circular is that you haven't provided any support for your own positions. Most people would realize that their position is untenable having been torn down and not having reasons for it. But you believe in Tom Almighty, the Lord and the Son of the Lord.
I have literally no idea what that link to the alignment cop is doing other than mocking me, I don't see the correlation
I am arguing that is unlikely that Tom fake claimed here, not that that makes him any more or less town, If did say the latter than that was a mistake, if I cant find reasons for him being more likely town, then ill shut my mouth
Literally all these roles exist as town roles to check if scum are lying or not. They're not an unfamiliar thing. And given the seeming lack of a direct alignment cop, a town claim vigilante does not seem remiss.
If did say the latter than that was a mistake, if I cant find reasons for him being more likely town, then ill shut my mouth
Shutting your mouth is not the appropriate action in a mafia game when you find that someone has high scum equity and low town equity. The appropriate action is to vote for that person.
Osie hear me out. How about you help us lynch KJ today and people will use actions at night to check on tom? Does that sound good for you? This whole page of you rambling about how tom is scum is not convincing anyone.
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Osie hear me out. How about you help us lynch KJ today and people will use actions at night to check on tom? Does that sound good for you? This whole page of you rambling about how tom is scum is not convincing anyone.
I'm expecting nothing to come of it after this phase; KJ gets lynched and then we flounder around until someone decides to lynch me or Chris instead of tom, probably twice, meanwhile there's 3 nightkills in the large town pool. That puts us down to either 3/2 LyLO or 4/1, in the latter case tom just needs to evade two lynches as a deepwolf. He should be lynched long before final 5, but in particular if the active players get steadily killed off while y'all refuse to lynch him for no reason...
I'm unconvinced that we get anything out of the night phase in regards to tom unless Killjoy is town, in which case we should be lynching tom instead anyways.
@Osie: when was the last time you went this hard in on a scum read?
Also, regardless of that read, saying Tom is “outed scum” is ridiculous. Yeah, sure, maybe he lied about his role, but that’s not absolutely true, stop acting like it is.
And yes I'm a walking ball of contradictions, tell me something I don't know
Also don't quote what I say in discord is has nothing to do with this game
As for specific reasons why, maybe I'll get to them or maybe I wont
I'm at work currently, and I did not shade you, I'm stating what I saw, the lack of deeper explanation doesn't make it shade, there is no reason to be hedging on all these players, with could be town, or less likely to be town or probably town
Try again
Imagine lynching a player you define as not really towny nor not really Wolfy, because you are unable to read him
"I'm never going to vote for someone who I readily have stated that I can't confidently townread, including in this game."
This can speak for itself, but
"I've contradicted myself before, so interacting with me when I'm contradicting myself is pointless. Leave me alone."
The discord posts were from discussions of other games. Pointing out that you have a track record of saying that you can't confidently read tom is not remiss.
"Please don't ask me to play the game."
I mean, if I knew their alignments, then sure... But I don't. Is this a scum claim from you?
Note the lack of the word "just" before the word "because". There are other reasons to lynch tom. They've been stated by several other players. Including two notable mechanical reasons, and lack of anything that makes him townie this game.
And how is that a scum claim, how is being confident a scum claim? There is absolutely no reason to be hedging on everyone
What is the second mechanical reason?
Oh. I'm sorry I didn't format a readlist (that wasn't even specifically MY reads, just a rough summary of where the thread seemed to be) your way, sir. There's a readlist from you:
Is that more to your liking, or are you just going to act like a lily-livered sheep instead of growing some balls and playing the game?
Saying that you know someone's alignment beyond a reasonable doubt is a scumclaim.
How am I a sheep? And thanks?
Because his actual role could be damning from a flavour perspective?
Other than the flavour claim, he's also the scummiest revealed of 2+ killing role players in a small game.
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Killjoy (3): tomsloger, Sir Chris, vezokpiraka
tomsloger (3): Vaimes, Killjoy, osieorb18
osieorb18 (2): Axelrod, KittyCupCake
Lastwhisper (1): shadowlancerx
Abstain (2): Cantripmancer, Lastwhisper
With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.
Day 3 will end at 11:59PM EST, Wednesday, September 18th. Here is the deadline.
KCC and vezok have fallen off but I'll be damned if this dude counter claims his own partner on day 1 for literally no reason
Scummiest of revealed two killing roles means jack *****
Damning from a flavor perspective? What do you mean?
Gotta close my store lol
If there's 2 KP on town this game, then this game is firmly town-sided in design, unless scum roles are WTFOMGBBQ bonkers. I firmly don't believe that to be the case, based on what we've seen.
As for damning from a flavor perspective, it is quite possible that the flavour reflects alignment, in which case Infect explicitly as a false claim makes a lot of sense. Even if flavour does not reflect alignment, if someone can determine abilities from flavour (which is certainly possible), then it's possible that his actual flavour makes it clear that he would not be a 1-shot Day-vig. For example, if he was Jund instead of Infect, he could be a Scum Strongman with a 1-shot Dayvig.
I'll be home in like half an hour
Remembering that I know very little of magic the gathering cards or common decks
Your read of tom has no support. It is going along with a previous status quo. Here's a start on your mentions of tom that are relevant to a read on him:
First off, your posts on him actually look more scum on scum than anything.
But his posts on you in literally any game always look like he just doesn't really think you're worth his time regardless of alignment, so that's not really helpful.
Assuming that you're town (which is an assumption I'm willing to make for the time being), you've actually said very little about tom's alignment since Day 2 near his shot, just that you don't want to lynch him, that you don't want to lynch him...
Also, he's explicitly stated that bussing is not something he's against (not that it ever really was implied that it was by anyone other than you) so that's a load of bull.
So where does this confidence come from in Tom being town? Or is it just that you don't want him to be lynched? After reading about half of your ISO, I absolutely would have no surprise and no qualms with lynching Tom and you and the two of you flipping scum together. It's a quite plausible world given the sheer lack of any suspicion, or even much in the way of interaction from you to him.
I don't think you're actually scum. I think you're just misguided on tom because of some bad reason that probably fundamentally has nothing to do with the game. Stockholm Syndrome comes to mind.
But one way or another, you continue to dodge the core question:
WHERE are these TOWNIE posts by tom, that he WOULDN'T make as SCUM?
If you are town, then you're defending someone scummy, who you explicitly cannot read, for no reason.
A little, but don't worry, it's not out of my scum range. <- Look, I can do it too! That doesn't actually make me a good player, and certainly doesn't make me town.
I haven't really been looking at any of those people today, at least not to any serious degree. My lynch pool for today is, as it's been for a while:
tom>>>Killjoy
Maybe you can use that time to find an actual reason to townread tom. (I doubt it exists.)
Decks.
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Any actual likelihood of a secret redirector or a role-tailor instead a fake claim is non-existent.
If anything, it's more likely that tom's false claim came from knowing that Cantrip was a claim vig, either from direct information through a role cop or other scum knowledge, or from a lucky guess on the part of scum. Because OF COURSE Cantrip would try to kill tom the following night after seeing a day-vig shot if Cantrip's a town claim-vig.
In the end, the mechanical likelihood that tom lied about his role is extremely high. And to ignore that is fundamentally anti-town.
I'll take the L if he flips wolf, I don't care
If anything neither a silent redirector nor Tom lying makes anymore sense then the other or is more likely
A) Town and confident that he is town, but cannot provide a concrete reason.
or
B) His scum-buddy.
Given that it appears to be the former, either there is evidence that he is in the form of townie posts and actions, or you are just wrong and he is actually scum, who you are defending.
WHAT REACHING?! Whatcha talkin about, Willis?
So you are openly declaring that either:
A) You are scum with tom
OR
B) You do not care about your own win condition if tom is scum.
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There is zero benefits to me hard defending Tom here if he is my partner, especially given in past games where I've tried to power wolf and failed miserably
If this is lylo and I am refusing to re-evaluate the game-state, than yes, you can actively say that I am going against my won-con, but regardless of Tom's alignment, lynching him or not lynching him today doesn't lose us the game
I expect a flavor heavy game, to have the flavor that doesn't out the wolves if they claim it, or in that case give them a fake claim, and in this game, probably not a deck that can be found out as a lie via mechanical abilities, so thats gunna be a no from me
Outside of the rest of that post, which is already a trip in and of itself, this is next-level insanity. There's no reaching. Right now, your belief is that the game consists of:
Megs - Town 1-shot Bulletproof Doctor
Rhand - Town Vote Granter
dkingsland - Town Backup
Vezok - Town Town-Lynch Random JOAT
tomsloger - Town 1-shot Dayvig
Cantripmancer - Town Claim Vigilante
Osie - ??? 1-shot JOAT
??? - ??? Redirector
Azrael - Scum Delayed JOAT
Grapefruit - Scum Delayer + 2-shot Coroner
One of the remaining scum roles would have to be on par with an innocent child to make this setup balanced.
It's not reaching to say that tom is caught scum.
This isn't a real argument against anything. It's the same sort of false premise that you were doing earlier. Your argument contains a vacuous hypothesis.
There's zero benefit to you hard-defending him as town either.
anyways you can keep posting, I am ignoring this thread for the rest of the night, I worked 8 hours, and I didn't expect to get into any real-time arguments when I got home
I'd rather lynch KJ tomorrow because it's infinitely harder for him to slip out of being lynched tomorrow than it is for tom to do so based on the current game state. Pretty much, I don't know that I will be able to conjure enough WIM tomorrow if tom continues to slip through town's fingers.
"My townread on tom is uninformed and has zero basis in the game, but I like tom's beard so he's town." <- Lastwhisper, 9/7/2019
how the hell are you not seeing this?
Except that Cantrip has been orders of magnitude more townie than tom has been.
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Alignment%20Cop
LMAO
I am not going to continue this circular argument for now, since I cant recall any reasons that prove he's more likely town over mafia without rereading, which I really do not want to do right now
Besides, it doesn't matter if they have to fake claim or not. Town has infinitely lower motivation to fake claim in this game. Your argument of "tom isn't fakeclaiming" presumes that tom is town, then says that he isn't fakeclaiming, rather than presuming that tom could be either alignment, saying "Hey, there's a fakeclaim, a counterclaim, and no inherently town behavior" and catching openly caught scum.
The only reason this is circular is that you haven't provided any support for your own positions. Most people would realize that their position is untenable having been torn down and not having reasons for it. But you believe in Tom Almighty, the Lord and the Son of the Lord.
I am arguing that is unlikely that Tom fake claimed here, not that that makes him any more or less town, If did say the latter than that was a mistake, if I cant find reasons for him being more likely town, then ill shut my mouth
last post for the night
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Lie%20Detector
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Claim%20Vigilante
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Role%20Cop
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Flavor%20Cop
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Firearms%20Inspector
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Alignment%20Cop
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Parity%20Cop
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Vanilla%20Cop
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Neapolitan
Literally all these roles exist as town roles to check if scum are lying or not. They're not an unfamiliar thing. And given the seeming lack of a direct alignment cop, a town claim vigilante does not seem remiss.
Why? Even if he had little to lose as far as he knew, if he got a fake claim, it's not unreasonable for him to use it.
Umm... What? So "he probably didn't fake claim, but it's irrelevant to his alignment even if he did." THAT. IS. NONSENSICAL.
Shutting your mouth is not the appropriate action in a mafia game when you find that someone has high scum equity and low town equity. The appropriate action is to vote for that person.
I have a response to this too!
I am getting confused now
Just now?
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I'm unconvinced that we get anything out of the night phase in regards to tom unless Killjoy is town, in which case we should be lynching tom instead anyways.
Vote Killjoy
If nothing comes from this lynch or from night actions, I'm probably just dropping a vote the next day and then my effort will likely dissipate.
People who think osie is scum are clowning.
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StaffAlso, regardless of that read, saying Tom is “outed scum” is ridiculous. Yeah, sure, maybe he lied about his role, but that’s not absolutely true, stop acting like it is.
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