Vaimes and Cantripmancer, please address my note about the mindset of a scum tom killing dkings given the information we have. What's the world where Tom does that sort of kill in order to take the backup off the board for town?
I'm well aware of the concept of reevaluation. But I'm curious why you think this is relevant here. Because... dk was never your top choice anyway, according to your posts. You said if dk flipped scum you would clear tom, and then threatened Tom unless he shot dk and he flipped scum, but you never actually said dk was your top choice, or someone you even wanted shot. So, was is this reevaluation relevant?
If you did not gather before my re-read that I thought dkings was scummy then no words I say now will reach you.
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his main read was KJ. I feel like for tom to ever be scum, KJ has to be scum with him which makes KJ a much better target.
I don't know tom kind of said '**** it' and scum tom saying '**** it' and shooting a backup is... just weird, really. No one would have cared if he made me claim, for example. Also I have never seen a town backup 'backup' the opposite faction's abilities before. It feels really off that scum Tom would do that. Maybe the whole scum team's plan is to confuse me just for giggles though.
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@Cantrip: day kill reset votes. Last votecount had you as not voting. That makes the post much less weird.
I voted just after that votecount (but before your post).
Quote from Vez »
@people voting tom: You should stop. There is no way we are lynching a proven day vig with a similar activation to dead scum.
I don't see the activation as similar; the similarity would be in publicly declared abilities.
Chris, I think your point is a good one, but I don't know why town!Tom wouldn't give DK a chance to go into more depth, give final reads, get everyone's thoughts on the claim, etc. It's pretty easy to imagine scumchat, though, going "get some claims, but not too many or it'll be suspicious; go ahead and fire at the first claim that isn't clearly town". And since Tom has declined to talk about that, I'm good keeping my vote on him for now.
Fair, Tom does have some questions to account for.
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I haven't finished reviewing what I'm reviewing, but I'm just thinking out loud some more.
Alive (13/16)
1. Vaimes
2. Grapefruit21
3. Axelrod
4. tomsloger
5. Sir Chris
6. Fuwa
7. Cantripmancer
8. shadowlancerx
9. vezokpiraka
10. KittyCupCake
11. Lastwhisper r. Syrenz
12. killjoy
13. Megiddo r. beeboy
If I take out everyone who I have a very solid behavioral/mechanical reason to think is Town.
Alive (13/16)
1. Vaimes
2. Grapefruit21 3. Axelrod - that's me!
4. tomsloger
5. Sir Chris
6. Fuwa
7. Cantripmancer 8. shadowlancerx - Az killer 9. vezokpiraka - claim. Counter-claim timing. 10. KittyCupCake - Az killer
11. Lastwhisper r. Syrenz
12. killjoy
13. Megiddo r. beeboy
Then take out the people who I feel like I have a good read on or there are other game-related reasons to think are Town:
Alive (13/16) 1. Vaimes - no bad posts? This might be a weak reason, as he might could do this as scum. But was on the right side of the Az debate. 2. Grapefruit21 - Because of Az's weird declaration of his Town-ness so early on. Also not asking for extension to save Az's life, despite being on record as not in favor of the lynch. 3. Axelrod 4. tomsloger* - I am coming around here, going through his posts is showing a fairly decent thought process for his shooting. Not finished yet though, so *
5. Sir Chris 6. Fuwa - The Az. counter-wagon. This might be the weakest reason to take someone out, as I feel like most of that push came from people I think are Town. It might be mainly the assumption that, if faced with the choice between Az and Fuwa, the scum would have chosen to bus Fuwa. Maybe this is a disasterous assumption to make. We shall see. 7. Cantripmancer - His thought process just seems too correctly aligned, and he's really solve-y. 8. shadowlancerx 9. vezokpiraka 10. KittyCupCake
11. Lastwhisper r. Syrenz
12. killjoy
13. Megiddo r. beeboy
Then I am down to just 4 people. And there are likely 3 scum?
Notably, I have re-added Killjoy from the last list I made because I don't think my reason for town-reading him is all that strong.
It's NEVER just that easy. I recognize this. There's is virtually always some scum who I peg as Town early on. But still. The people I think are Town I've got some good reasons.
Like I said, still reviewing some stuff. But this is kind of where I am right at this second.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
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I just looked back over the end-of-day posts regarding the deadline extension.
Pro: Killjoy, Axelrod, Fuwa. Cantrip also said he would support an extension, but only if people wanted to switch off from lynching Azrael to lynching Tom, and vezok voted for it very late for the expressed reason that he didn't want to lynch Fuwa.
Anti: KCC, Shadow, Rhand, Grape, Vaimes
Made no comment: Tom, Chris, LW. Also beeboy, but he hasn't posted since the 14th.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
6. Fuwa - The Az. counter-wagon. This might be the weakest reason to take someone out, as I feel like most of that push came from people I think are Town. It might be mainly the assumption that, if faced with the choice between Az and Fuwa, the scum would have chosen to bus Fuwa.
I think that is a fair assumption to make. But I also think that if Fuwa is scum, all of the non-az non-fuwa scum were on fuwa. So, softclearing her here just doesn't work.
Otherwise, I'm pretty much exactly where you are in POE. Though I'm willing to give Meg a temporary pass for the claim, and kj just seems like mislynch bait here and not the first place I'd look. You're on the outer edge of my maybe pile too, but I don't really expect to reach that point
@Cantrip: day kill reset votes. Last votecount had you as not voting. That makes the post much less weird.
I voted just after that votecount (but before your post).
Quote from Vez »
@people voting tom: You should stop. There is no way we are lynching a proven day vig with a similar activation to dead scum.
I don't see the activation as similar; the similarity would be in publicly declared abilities.
Chris, I think your point is a good one, but I don't know why town!Tom wouldn't give DK a chance to go into more depth, give final reads, get everyone's thoughts on the claim, etc. It's pretty easy to imagine scumchat, though, going "get some claims, but not too many or it'll be suspicious; go ahead and fire at the first claim that isn't clearly town". And since Tom has declined to talk about that, I'm good keeping my vote on him for now.
"I dOn'T sEe ThE aCtIvAtIoN aS sImIlAr."
Az got access to his abilities on night 2 and probably had only night abilities. Tom got his ability on day 2. You can believe whatever you, but this is not a subjective thing. Their activations are similar. You're being thick for the sake of being thick. There is no reason to vote for tom right now. Nada, 0, null. Your vote is just rotting on the other side of the votcount until we hit the deadline in 4 days/
@KCC: How is killjoy mislynch bait? His wagon stalled several times for no apparent reason, dead scum was defending him and his most memorable contribution is attacking me today. You are ignoring the signs that point to him being scum.
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To be clear the "play a creature first" thing is just some mtg knowledge and interpreting my flavor.
Like, im infect i can kill someone out of nowhere once ive played a creature thats how magic works
I dont actually play it like AZs tron lands, it doesnt say "delayed" in my role name.
Sucks he flipped town but i stand by my decision/process
Why didn't you wait for DK to return and provide final thoughts? Why fire as soon as you got the claim, especially when DK specified that he was short on time when he posted and would post later?
Vez, thank you for mocking me; that definitely makes me feel like trying to see things from your perspective.
Completely facetious rant: what seriously is people's perception of me as a player? I know I'm not the world's greatest player; I don't win awards every year or set games on fire with my boss insights. I produce way too many walls, and I'm far too paranoid. But I truly hope I don't come off as a complete and total idiot. This is, I believe, the third time this game that someone's essentially told me that my choice is worse than bad, borderline imbecilic, even, seemingly without giving me even a shred of credit that I might just have information or insight--that I don't think should be shared at that particular time--at my disposal that is informing my choices. You don't agree with me? That's cool. But don't just write me off as stupid.
Sucks he flipped town but i stand by my decision/process
Why didn't you wait for DK to return and provide final thoughts? Why fire as soon as you got the claim, especially when DK specified that he was short on time when he posted and would post later?
Vez, thank you for mocking me; that definitely makes me feel like trying to see things from your perspective.
Completely facetious rant: what seriously is people's perception of me as a player? I know I'm not the world's greatest player; I don't win awards every year or set games on fire with my boss insights. I produce way too many walls, and I'm far too paranoid. But I truly hope I don't come off as a complete and total idiot. This is, I believe, the third time this game that someone's essentially told me that my choice is worse than bad, borderline imbecilic, even, seemingly without giving me even a shred of credit that I might just have information or insight--that I don't think should be shared at that particular time--at my disposal that is informing my choices. You don't agree with me? That's cool. But don't just write me off as stupid.
/rant
I personally think you are great mafia player with good insights most of the time. Sorry if I come off as mocking. I'm just doing it for the joke.
But you can't vote someone who is by all definitions pretty unlikely to be scum on day 2 and claim hidden role info and that we should all follow you when there are other wagons with a better chance of catching scum.
So the fact that you're doing so many things that in my mind are pretty bad plays makes me think you are scum, because I know you're a good player. Same as Az.
@tom: the only difference between your role and Az's role as claimed os that he has to announce in thread the tron lands dropping while your daykill is secret. Barring that, both yours and Az's role have powerful abilitirs that get unlocked after night 1. Maybe I'm using a different definition of the word similar than you and Cantrip, but imho these are very similar activations.
Like assume you have a card that says "exile a card face-down from your hand and treat it like it's in the graveyard" or "discard a card". Those are similar effects even if they aren't identical and the implementation differs.
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Sucks he flipped town but i stand by my decision/process
Why didn't you wait for DK to return and provide final thoughts? Why fire as soon as you got the claim, especially when DK specified that he was short on time when he posted and would post later?
i thought he was scum dude.
How long should i have dragged it out? At this point ive heard i should have waited for days, that i hijacked the day and made it about me, that i should have yoloed, that i should have shot *this person* because *this arbitrary votecount*
I read the az wagon. I isoed my main suspects. I asked for engagement. I picked my own arbitrary votecounts to put stock in.
And i shot town.
Cant win em all.
Based on the flip and my townreads, i strongly believe were looking at a team playing to their wincons.
Im not, like, slam dunk ecstatic about chris flipping scum here but it seems a really good direction.
Ive got some thoughts about possible deep wolves but not a lot of profit in putting those in thread today
Tom do you remember the last time you played with scum Chris whose buddy got owned day 1 by town? It was the Hydra mafia game on MU late last year. I am so out of my scum meta it hurts and you should know that.
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Anyway I will go ahead and claim, no real need to not do so.
Jund, Town Conditional Tracker.
I get a track every time we lynch town instead of scum, I do not have to be on the lynch for this effect to occur.
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I'm not second guessing the mod. I believe it all the day. I'm just counterclaiming you. I'm also a joat and my abilitirs are nowhere near those you have.
Sucks he flipped town but i stand by my decision/process
Why didn't you wait for DK to return and provide final thoughts? Why fire as soon as you got the claim, especially when DK specified that he was short on time when he posted and would post later?
i thought he was scum dude.
How long should i have dragged it out? At this point ive heard i should have waited for days, that i hijacked the day and made it about me, that i should have yoloed, that i should have shot *this person* because *this arbitrary votecount*
I read the az wagon. I isoed my main suspects. I asked for engagement. I picked my own arbitrary votecounts to put stock in.
And i shot town.
Cant win em all.
Based on the flip and my townreads, i strongly believe were looking at a team playing to their wincons.
Im not, like, slam dunk ecstatic about chris flipping scum here but it seems a really good direction.
Ive got some thoughts about possible deep wolves but not a lot of profit in putting those in thread today
Hey tom, idk if you've already answered this because I haven't been following along super much recently due to getting ready to go plus being on vacation, but I need to know: why were you scumreading dk? I only recall you saying that he was a better shot than me.
@Axel: speaking of vacations, if you find a good mattress, send it to my hotel room in Nevada. I BARELY slept at all.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Anyway I will go ahead and claim, no real need to not do so.
Jund, Town Conditional Tracker.
I get a track every time we lynch town instead of scum, I do not have to be on the lynch for this effect to occur.
Vez, are you a "Town Conditional JOAT"?
This is the second claim of a Town ability that doesn't get activated until a Town gets lynched. But it's different because this ability (A) Does not require the Role to be on the lynch to get the ability and (B) Is not a 1-shot. It's the same shot over and over.
This would be consistent with Chris pushing the theory that Tom only got his Day-kill because we lynched scum, and a theory in general of abilities for each side getting activated as a "catch-up" mechanism. But it seems like that would be a lot of those type of abilities.
We don't know what Az had, but we know it was also a delayed ability until at least N2, maybe N3. But if we accept Meg's claim, there's someone out there with a "delayer" ability who was active N1.
I don't really like it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm not second guessing the mod. I believe it all the day. I'm just counterclaiming you. I'm also a joat and my abilitirs are nowhere near those you have.
I don't think that means as much as you might think, Vezok. Possible that it does, but given what this game seems to be it isn't a certainty.
Chris, can you elaborate on this post now?
With my role in mind I was wary of reading too much into how roles interacted with each other in terms of normal counter claim mechanics, given on top of my ability there was also a modifier. I thought this would make correctly metaing more difficult.
And yes, my power along with Vezok's was a major reason I had concern of Tom gaining a day kill upon a scum death to make the game less swingy.
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With my role in mind I was wary of reading too much into how roles interacted with each other in terms of normal counter claim mechanics, given on top of my ability there was also a modifier. I thought this would make correctly metaing more difficult.
You have a condition to activate a standard ability, Az claims a delayed activation of his role... How does this translate into readily accepting that the town has multiple JoaTs?
Man, I very rarely put people in categories where, if one flipped Town/Scum that would make me feel strongly the opposite of the other - I more often just put them in categories where I conclude they wouldn't be buddies together - but if Chris were to flip Town, given that claim, it would make me virtually certain that the scum must have some similar role/ability that activates when a scum gets lynched, and that would just point all kinds of fingers at Tom again for me.
It is ironic in a way that the fact we lynched scum D1 is what is causing this dilemma. If we had mislynched and Tom still popped up with a day-klll on D2, I would have found it much likelier to be a Town thing.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It doesn't mention anything regarding conditional.in the role title.
Anyway just because tom gained the shot day 2 doesn't mean it's correlated with Az dying. This feels.like an extremely bad push.
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It doesn't mention anything regarding conditional.in the role title.
Anyway just because tom gained the shot day 2 doesn't mean it's correlated with Az dying. This feels.like an extremely bad push.
No it doesn't necessarily "mean" that. It's just a possibility. And not exactly a far-fetched one.
Can you say what your "card" is Vez? Is there a reason not to? I'm feeling out the flavor of the roles here.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@cantrip
Shooting me cause you can't figure me out is just rood, I'd rather not die before I can resolve my ability, so no bully, that's the most I'm saying on that matter
Looking back at this. In light of Chris's claim, I would like to know if you are also claiming some kind of "conditional" ability that something needs to happen before you get to use you ability. You do not need to say with it is yet. Though I would be interested if "Conditional" was part of your role title. That actually goes for everyone.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
With my role in mind I was wary of reading too much into how roles interacted with each other in terms of normal counter claim mechanics, given on top of my ability there was also a modifier. I thought this would make correctly metaing more difficult.
You have a condition to activate a standard ability, Az claims a delayed activation of his role... How does this translate into readily accepting that the town has multiple JoaTs?
I've seen multiple Jacks in high complexity games often enough not to base things solely on a counter claim. Simple fact is I got Az's alignment wrong and setup gaming isn't the type of thing to move my needle on a read.
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KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I personally think you are great mafia player with good insights most of the time. Sorry if I come off as mocking. I'm just doing it for the joke.
Thanks, I guess. Sorry I flipped my lid a little. Long day, not that that excuses emotional outbursts.
Quote from Vez »
But you can't vote someone who is by all definitions pretty unlikely to be scum on day 2 and claim hidden role info and that we should all follow you when there are other wagons with a better chance of catching scum.
I'm actually NOT saying you should all follow me on this one. I was way more confident that Az was scum than I am that Tom is. I'm just saying that I DO have reasons, I'm just not willing to share those reasons yet.
Quote from Vez »
So the fact that you're doing so many things that in my mind are pretty bad plays makes me think you are scum, because I know you're a good player. Same as Az.
Can you actually articulate what "many things" I've done that are "pretty bad plays"? Because I'm feeling pretty good about myself so far, probably why I'm feeling so frustrated that multiple players are just dismissing my thoughts.
How long should i have dragged it out? At this point ive heard i should have waited for days, that i hijacked the day and made it about me, that i should have yoloed, that i should have shot *this person* because *this arbitrary votecount*
I read the az wagon. I isoed my main suspects. I asked for engagement. I picked my own arbitrary votecounts to put stock in.
And i shot town.
Cant win em all.
I don't mind you making up your own mind. And I can actually see your thought process to get to Dkings. But if you're town, you didn't KNOW he was scum when you took the shot. It's just frustrating that we get neither his reads (I know, dead townie thoughts aren't the most valuable, but they're still a perspective that's nice to have) or additional information on what his ability did. It just felt premature, and like it wouldn't have cost you much to have a tiny bit more patience. *I* certainly didn't feel like you'd hijacked the thread; a dayvig shot should be a process.
I am at a crossroads and need to figure out what direction I want to go in with a decision. In the meantime...
Grape, pretend you're Town Vengeful Ghost and when you die you get a 1-shot vig you can use from beyond the grave. You get mislunched toDay; who dies toNight? Why?
Chris, can you also indicate what card is related to your ability?
Megiddo, I'm not sure I understand why you claimed who you protected knowing that you were delayed. Wouldn't it be better in that situation to claim the protective role and that you were delayed, but not specify who your target was to increase the chances that scum tried to kill Vaimes toNight and were prevented?
Vaimes, why does "too many people [you] want to kill...pushing Chris" equate to you moving your vote from Wisp to KJ? Why not push Tom, even if your scum read on him is half-boiled?
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BRB I need my coffee,
@axel
Me having a conditional may or not be a lie, either way I'm not claiming more, I already claimed enough
I feel likes it's literally so easy to just chop a conditional onto your claim to make it sound more towny
What?
Do you not understand the point of my question? I am trying to assess the credibility of Chris's claim. What do you mean you may or may not have lied? What are you even doing this game?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
BRB I need my coffee,
@axel
Me having a conditional may or not be a lie, either way I'm not claiming more, I already claimed enough
I feel likes it's literally so easy to just chop a conditional onto your claim to make it sound more towny
What?
Do you not understand the point of my question? I am trying to assess the credibility of Chris's claim. What do you mean you may or may not have lied? What are you even doing this game?
if I did or did not have some kind of conditional, why would it make it more or less likely for Chris to have one
my main ability has a condition, but nothing like that, not a delay, not you must lynch this alignment, or you cant use it till this day
sorry I didn't have my coffee when I responded I was irritated
lmao, yeah nope, too many people I want to kill are pushing Chris at the moment
Unvote, vote KJ
yet you vote killjoy? you literally just proclaimed that this is a plurality lynch setup, so you dont need to join wagons you don't want to, so what exactly are you doing?
I really want to vote Vaimes, his meta smokescreen is starting to fade
two votes on Tom, a train that I don't think his happening imo, just feels like
an easy and safe train for wolves to vote on, a train that will most likely flip town, as
well as a train no one would get blamed for if it was to flip blue
Voting Tom today just feels so wolfy
P.S: There were two votes now there's just Cantrip
about 70% chance that one of Vaimes or Cantrip is a wolf
the problem with this though, is I spent most of last night going through Cantrip's iso, if this dude is a wolf, then kudos to him, regardless of my random hot takes on the slot, and earlier claims of him sounding manipulative, of which I still am unable to find the post I called him out on
normally I would say someone being wishy-washy with their votes is +town points as most wolves don't throw their votes around, but not with vaimes
I could see myself going back to Killjoy, but now I am questioning my own read on him, maybe Grape has got the right idea with Killjoy
I really struggle to see KJ as scum and not scummy.
If you did not gather before my re-read that I thought dkings was scummy then no words I say now will reach you.
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Is a misfire with less backlash than killing a protective role.
They were worried about dk's reads. I have not looked at his reads, just throwing out guesses.
Didn't want to be called out for getting too many claims.
Scum don't want town to for sure know Azrael's abilities, assuming dk could've been a backup to dead scum.
Overall shrug? I don't know why scum kill who they kill. Rodemy tried to daykill Shinichi in GoT for wine.
I don't know tom kind of said '**** it' and scum tom saying '**** it' and shooting a backup is... just weird, really. No one would have cared if he made me claim, for example. Also I have never seen a town backup 'backup' the opposite faction's abilities before. It feels really off that scum Tom would do that. Maybe the whole scum team's plan is to confuse me just for giggles though.
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I don't see the activation as similar; the similarity would be in publicly declared abilities.
Chris, I think your point is a good one, but I don't know why town!Tom wouldn't give DK a chance to go into more depth, give final reads, get everyone's thoughts on the claim, etc. It's pretty easy to imagine scumchat, though, going "get some claims, but not too many or it'll be suspicious; go ahead and fire at the first claim that isn't clearly town". And since Tom has declined to talk about that, I'm good keeping my vote on him for now.
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Alive (13/16)
1. Vaimes
2. Grapefruit21
3. Axelrod
4. tomsloger
5. Sir Chris
6. Fuwa
7. Cantripmancer
8. shadowlancerx
9. vezokpiraka
10. KittyCupCake
11. Lastwhisper r. Syrenz
12. killjoy
13. Megiddo r. beeboy
If I take out everyone who I have a very solid behavioral/mechanical reason to think is Town.
Alive (13/16)
1. Vaimes
2. Grapefruit21
3. Axelrod- that's me!4. tomsloger
5. Sir Chris
6. Fuwa
7. Cantripmancer
8. shadowlancerx- Az killer9. vezokpiraka- claim. Counter-claim timing.10. KittyCupCake- Az killer11. Lastwhisper r. Syrenz
12. killjoy
13. Megiddo r. beeboy
Then take out the people who I feel like I have a good read on or there are other game-related reasons to think are Town:
Alive (13/16)
1. Vaimes- no bad posts? This might be a weak reason, as he might could do this as scum. But was on the right side of the Az debate.2. Grapefruit21- Because of Az's weird declaration of his Town-ness so early on. Also not asking for extension to save Az's life, despite being on record as not in favor of the lynch.3. Axelrod4. tomsloger* - I am coming around here, going through his posts is showing a fairly decent thought process for his shooting. Not finished yet though, so *5. Sir Chris
6. Fuwa- The Az. counter-wagon. This might be the weakest reason to take someone out, as I feel like most of that push came from people I think are Town. It might be mainly the assumption that, if faced with the choice between Az and Fuwa, the scum would have chosen to bus Fuwa. Maybe this is a disasterous assumption to make. We shall see.7. Cantripmancer- His thought process just seems too correctly aligned, and he's really solve-y.8. shadowlancerx9. vezokpiraka10. KittyCupCake11. Lastwhisper r. Syrenz
12. killjoy
13. Megiddo r. beeboy
Then I am down to just 4 people. And there are likely 3 scum?
Notably, I have re-added Killjoy from the last list I made because I don't think my reason for town-reading him is all that strong.
It's NEVER just that easy. I recognize this. There's is virtually always some scum who I peg as Town early on. But still. The people I think are Town I've got some good reasons.
Like I said, still reviewing some stuff. But this is kind of where I am right at this second.
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I think that is a fair assumption to make. But I also think that if Fuwa is scum, all of the non-az non-fuwa scum were on fuwa. So, softclearing her here just doesn't work.
Otherwise, I'm pretty much exactly where you are in POE. Though I'm willing to give Meg a temporary pass for the claim, and kj just seems like mislynch bait here and not the first place I'd look. You're on the outer edge of my maybe pile too, but I don't really expect to reach that point
This is my biggest issue with the shot. If he's town, I do understand the thinking, but I don't like it
Sucks he flipped town but i stand by my decision/process
Vote Count 2.8
Sir Chris (4): tomsloger, KittyCupCake, Grapefruit21, Lastwhisper
tomsloger (2): Vaimes, Cantripmancer
Killjoy (2): Sir Chris, vezokpiraka
Lastwhisper (1): Grapefruit21
Grapefruit21 (1): shadowlancerx
Abstain (4): Axelrod, Fuwa, Killjoy, Megiddo
With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Sunday, September 1st, at 11:59 PM.
I will replace Fuwa if she does not post within the next 24 hours.
Killjoy V/LA until the 31st
"I dOn'T sEe ThE aCtIvAtIoN aS sImIlAr."
Az got access to his abilities on night 2 and probably had only night abilities. Tom got his ability on day 2. You can believe whatever you, but this is not a subjective thing. Their activations are similar. You're being thick for the sake of being thick. There is no reason to vote for tom right now. Nada, 0, null. Your vote is just rotting on the other side of the votcount until we hit the deadline in 4 days/
@KCC: How is killjoy mislynch bait? His wagon stalled several times for no apparent reason, dead scum was defending him and his most memorable contribution is attacking me today. You are ignoring the signs that point to him being scum.
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Like, im infect i can kill someone out of nowhere once ive played a creature thats how magic works
I dont actually play it like AZs tron lands, it doesnt say "delayed" in my role name.
Not sure what youre finding similar
Vez, thank you for mocking me; that definitely makes me feel like trying to see things from your perspective.
Completely facetious rant: what seriously is people's perception of me as a player? I know I'm not the world's greatest player; I don't win awards every year or set games on fire with my boss insights. I produce way too many walls, and I'm far too paranoid. But I truly hope I don't come off as a complete and total idiot. This is, I believe, the third time this game that someone's essentially told me that my choice is worse than bad, borderline imbecilic, even, seemingly without giving me even a shred of credit that I might just have information or insight--that I don't think should be shared at that particular time--at my disposal that is informing my choices. You don't agree with me? That's cool. But don't just write me off as stupid.
/rant
I personally think you are great mafia player with good insights most of the time. Sorry if I come off as mocking. I'm just doing it for the joke.
But you can't vote someone who is by all definitions pretty unlikely to be scum on day 2 and claim hidden role info and that we should all follow you when there are other wagons with a better chance of catching scum.
So the fact that you're doing so many things that in my mind are pretty bad plays makes me think you are scum, because I know you're a good player. Same as Az.
@tom: the only difference between your role and Az's role as claimed os that he has to announce in thread the tron lands dropping while your daykill is secret. Barring that, both yours and Az's role have powerful abilitirs that get unlocked after night 1. Maybe I'm using a different definition of the word similar than you and Cantrip, but imho these are very similar activations.
Like assume you have a card that says "exile a card face-down from your hand and treat it like it's in the graveyard" or "discard a card". Those are similar effects even if they aren't identical and the implementation differs.
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How long should i have dragged it out? At this point ive heard i should have waited for days, that i hijacked the day and made it about me, that i should have yoloed, that i should have shot *this person* because *this arbitrary votecount*
I read the az wagon. I isoed my main suspects. I asked for engagement. I picked my own arbitrary votecounts to put stock in.
And i shot town.
Cant win em all.
Based on the flip and my townreads, i strongly believe were looking at a team playing to their wincons.
Im not, like, slam dunk ecstatic about chris flipping scum here but it seems a really good direction.
Ive got some thoughts about possible deep wolves but not a lot of profit in putting those in thread today
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Jund, Town Conditional Tracker.
I get a track every time we lynch town instead of scum, I do not have to be on the lynch for this effect to occur.
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Chris, can you elaborate on this post now?
@Axel: speaking of vacations, if you find a good mattress, send it to my hotel room in Nevada. I BARELY slept at all.
This is the second claim of a Town ability that doesn't get activated until a Town gets lynched. But it's different because this ability (A) Does not require the Role to be on the lynch to get the ability and (B) Is not a 1-shot. It's the same shot over and over.
This would be consistent with Chris pushing the theory that Tom only got his Day-kill because we lynched scum, and a theory in general of abilities for each side getting activated as a "catch-up" mechanism. But it seems like that would be a lot of those type of abilities.
We don't know what Az had, but we know it was also a delayed ability until at least N2, maybe N3. But if we accept Meg's claim, there's someone out there with a "delayer" ability who was active N1.
I don't really like it.
With my role in mind I was wary of reading too much into how roles interacted with each other in terms of normal counter claim mechanics, given on top of my ability there was also a modifier. I thought this would make correctly metaing more difficult.
And yes, my power along with Vezok's was a major reason I had concern of Tom gaining a day kill upon a scum death to make the game less swingy.
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You have a condition to activate a standard ability, Az claims a delayed activation of his role... How does this translate into readily accepting that the town has multiple JoaTs?
It is ironic in a way that the fact we lynched scum D1 is what is causing this dilemma. If we had mislynched and Tom still popped up with a day-klll on D2, I would have found it much likelier to be a Town thing.
It doesn't mention anything regarding conditional.in the role title.
Anyway just because tom gained the shot day 2 doesn't mean it's correlated with Az dying. This feels.like an extremely bad push.
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Can you say what your "card" is Vez? Is there a reason not to? I'm feeling out the flavor of the roles here.
I dunno, I just don't vibe with Chris being scum. Would be happy to be proven wrong, but not gonna support the wagon.
I actually really love plurality lynches. No more stupid ******* No Lynches on phases-are-centuries-long-kill-me-now MTGS.
I've seen multiple Jacks in high complexity games often enough not to base things solely on a counter claim. Simple fact is I got Az's alignment wrong and setup gaming isn't the type of thing to move my needle on a read.
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Unvote, vote KJ
@axelrod
nothing conditional at all
I'm actually NOT saying you should all follow me on this one. I was way more confident that Az was scum than I am that Tom is. I'm just saying that I DO have reasons, I'm just not willing to share those reasons yet.
Can you actually articulate what "many things" I've done that are "pretty bad plays"? Because I'm feeling pretty good about myself so far, probably why I'm feeling so frustrated that multiple players are just dismissing my thoughts.
I don't mind you making up your own mind. And I can actually see your thought process to get to Dkings. But if you're town, you didn't KNOW he was scum when you took the shot. It's just frustrating that we get neither his reads (I know, dead townie thoughts aren't the most valuable, but they're still a perspective that's nice to have) or additional information on what his ability did. It just felt premature, and like it wouldn't have cost you much to have a tiny bit more patience. *I* certainly didn't feel like you'd hijacked the thread; a dayvig shot should be a process.
I am at a crossroads and need to figure out what direction I want to go in with a decision. In the meantime...
Grape, pretend you're Town Vengeful Ghost and when you die you get a 1-shot vig you can use from beyond the grave. You get mislunched toDay; who dies toNight? Why?
Chris, can you also indicate what card is related to your ability?
Megiddo, I'm not sure I understand why you claimed who you protected knowing that you were delayed. Wouldn't it be better in that situation to claim the protective role and that you were delayed, but not specify who your target was to increase the chances that scum tried to kill Vaimes toNight and were prevented?
Vaimes, why does "too many people [you] want to kill...pushing Chris" equate to you moving your vote from Wisp to KJ? Why not push Tom, even if your scum read on him is half-boiled?
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@axel
Me having a conditional may or not be a lie, either way I'm not claiming more, I already claimed enough
I feel likes it's literally so easy to just chop a conditional onto your claim to make it sound more towny
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Do you not understand the point of my question? I am trying to assess the credibility of Chris's claim. What do you mean you may or may not have lied? What are you even doing this game?
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my main ability has a condition, but nothing like that, not a delay, not you must lynch this alignment, or you cant use it till this day
sorry I didn't have my coffee when I responded I was irritated
two votes on Tom, a train that I don't think his happening imo, just feels like
an easy and safe train for wolves to vote on, a train that will most likely flip town, as
well as a train no one would get blamed for if it was to flip blue
Voting Tom today just feels so wolfy
P.S: There were two votes now there's just Cantrip
about 70% chance that one of Vaimes or Cantrip is a wolf
the problem with this though, is I spent most of last night going through Cantrip's iso, if this dude is a wolf, then kudos to him, regardless of my random hot takes on the slot, and earlier claims of him sounding manipulative, of which I still am unable to find the post I called him out on
normally I would say someone being wishy-washy with their votes is +town points as most wolves don't throw their votes around, but not with vaimes
I could see myself going back to Killjoy, but now I am questioning my own read on him, maybe Grape has got the right idea with Killjoy
I am confused about your stance on Tom, why would you not want to state your reasons?