I was going to reply and play tonight but I have a headache.
So it'll either pass and I'll post late night or you'll see me tomorrow morning/night instead.
dk and KCC came into the game all excited (which isn't necessarily a tell) but also they were kind of... the opposite of self aware a bit as well. Scum usually aren't so carefree in general, so those entrances were ones that made me say "ok, these folks might be town" and as such I gave them both townleans.
Additionally now, I like the clapback from dk in 106. He didn't just accept my townread lying down. He stopped and analyzed it and said "wait, I haven't done anything townie yet! Where is this coming from?" Scum might prefer not to put themselves out there and draw attention to the townread on themselves which they would know to be wrong (and therefore could collapse under scrutiny).
Tom made post 148 which is annoying to me because it's not analytical at all. It's just like "heres why scum makes that post" withoutany actual thought. It didn't actually come from me, btw. It was Voxx, post 77 of his mentor thread with Proph. " It's very, very rare that 5 town will be on a lynch in a row, especially on town." The reason I said it in the first place is it's something I look for when wagons reach 5 or 6.
dking's vote is fine as discussed above. Rhand, Cantrip, and Axel are literally all just /barning that, and tom and shadow gave no reason. Well, technically Rhand /barns dk, Cantrip /barns Rhand, and Axel just restates dk's reason.
I originally said there was likely 1-2 in these 6. (I say 1-2 instead of just 1 due to the speed of the wagon.) With dking's out, there's 1-2 in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, shadowlancerx. I don't think there's >1 scum in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod as they are basically just barning each other and I don't think scum typically interact like that. Well... ballsier scum might? I don't beleive they are ballsier scum though.
That leaves tom and shadow. There COULD be both scum here, as tom and shadow are both proficient and ballsy scum players who go against typcial scum tropes. But assuming that also goes against Occum's Razor since assuming that tom and shadow are both powerwolfing at this stage is not super likely. If there IS exactly 1 scum in there, tom is more likely due to 148 because it's could easily be malicious, whereras shadow hasn't done anything like that to me.
Now on to other things.
Vaimes: Yes, that was what I was asking. I recall you saying in scumchat in Hill House that that was like the 4th consecutive scumgame for you and you seemed to hate it. Good catch.
Rhand: Talk to me about this game. What else do you have opinions on?
Shadow: I'd really like a reason for your vote. You say 'unexpressed opinion'. What is that opinion?
I'm not gonna bother asking tom since there's a very likely chance he just won't answer and that'll tilt me again.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Oh. And KCC: For some reason I thought you were the first vote on my wagon at some point. Then I looked at the wagon and didn't see you so I assumed you'd unvoted. Looking back, you never actually voted me at all. I seem to have misremembered that.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
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Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Actually that is a good point, @KJ: why no vote in that post?
Unvote cause I’m not quite ready to force a claim.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Actually that is a good point, @KJ: why no vote in that post?
Unvote cause I’m not quite ready to force a claim.
Because at current none of them are more likely scum than the others. Tom's closest because 148 but he's also Tom who would absolutely make that Post as town as well.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Like, you've seen my wait analysis.
Does the fact they only one person has a good reason to be on it not bother you at all?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Actually that is a good point, @KJ: why no vote in that post?
Unvote cause I’m not quite ready to force a claim.
Because at current none of them are more likely scum than the others. Tom's closest because 148 but he's also Tom who would absolutely make that Post as town as well.
I mean, 148 is 100% accurate to what your original response was. I would have made that post if Tom hadn’t, not I don’t think that it’s AI for anyone.
Tom, what are your thoughts on KJ’s wagon? Any vote stick out to you?
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Actually that is a good point, @KJ: why no vote in that post?
Unvote cause I’m not quite ready to force a claim.
Because at current none of them are more likely scum than the others. Tom's closest because 148 but he's also Tom who would absolutely make that Post as town as well.
I mean, 148 is 100% accurate to what your original response was. I would have made that post if Tom hadn’t, not I don’t think that it’s AI for anyone.
Tom, what are your thoughts on KJ’s wagon? Any vote stick out to you?
Not, it was commentary on how little stuff there is to analyze without flips day 1. Since it's a wagon on me, I don't need a flip. That was my point.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
What exactly are you mind melding on? Just the KJ part?
Dk/Vaimes slightly >rand to be buddies.
He voiced the feeling I have about KCC. I wanted to see more from her before pursuing my gut there, but I get the same vibes.
He also seems to be the only one that shares how I feel about Azrael.
@Shadow: why would it be bad to force KJ to claim?
@KJ: how does me being non-existent have anything to do with my alignment?
And why are you asking me if I have opinions on anything else while there’s plenty of that in my posts?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ: how does me being non-existent have anything to do with my alignment?
And why are you asking me if I have opinions on anything else while there’s plenty of that in my posts?
Not you, your process.
I'm pushing you to do more. More you doing stuff=more you being readable.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So that escalated quickly... Yes KJ's reads are bad but his approach is town. This is like ditf all over. Though he definitely felt like h was building to a tom vote in 154.
Not gonna order this because I’m not on a PC, but here you go:
1. Vaimes - lean town because of him voicing a KJ town read during the wagon build and his cheerful attitude.
2. Grapefruit21 - null: doesn’t seem to have any strong opinions, but does look like he’s looking for them. Town if Azrael is scum.
3. Azrael - lean scum: his Grape read is way too deep
4. Axelrod - lean town: his KJ vote is decent
5. tomsloger - lean scum: he seems to be open wolfing
6. Sir Chris - null
7. Fuwa - null
8. Cantripmancer - lean town for his digging into Shadow
9. Shadowlancerx - town for his Vezok read
10. vezokpiraka - town for his claim
11. Rhand
12. KittyCupCake r. KillerCandyCorn - lean scum: gutread
13. Syrenz - null
14. dkingsland967 - town for mindmeld
15. killjoy - scum
16. beeboy - lean scum
So that escalated quickly... Yes KJ's reads are bad but his approach is town. This is like ditf all over. Though he definitely felt like h was building to a tom vote in 154.
Not gonna order this because I’m not on a PC, but here you go:
1. Vaimes - lean town because of him voicing a KJ town read during the wagon build and his cheerful attitude.
Ok.
2. Grapefruit21 - null: doesn’t seem to have any strong opinions, but does look like he’s looking for them. Town if Azrael is scum.
What do you mean 'looks like he's looking for them'?.
3. Azrael - lean scum: his Grape read is way too deep
Have you never played with, or actually SEEN Az play before?
4. Axelrod - lean town: his KJ vote is decent
...I'm sorry... what? His vote was just as bad as yours and Cantrips. How are you having this opinion rn?
5. tomsloger - lean scum: he seems to be open wolfing
This could be true.
6. Sir Chris - null
7. Fuwa - null
I made a point earlier about her seeming overly innocent. Did you read it? What do you think?
8. Cantripmancer - lean town for his digging into Shadow
Hm. Ok
9. Shadowlancerx - town for his Vezok read
Hm. Ok.
10. vezokpiraka - town for his claim
You've said this twice now, and haven't actually expanded on it. Do you think the role he is claiming is town? Do you think the way he claimed is good? Why?
11. Rhand
12. KittyCupCake r. KillerCandyCorn - lean scum: gutread
Is this tone? What?
13. Syrenz - null
14. dkingsland967 - town for mindmeld
15. killjoy - scum
Now that I've answered, does this change your opinion? Your original reason was that it was bad that I townleaned dk based on nothing. I've explained it. What do you think of my answer?
16. beeboy - lean scum
Remind me why? You didn't say much in your original post.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So that escalated quickly... Yes KJ's reads are bad but his approach is town. This is like ditf all over. Though he definitely felt like h was building to a tom vote in 154.
Vote: Axel
Why is his approach town?
And why Axel?
His vote is in the sweet spot of opportunistic, overexplained, and easy.
As for KJ kind of everything but especially this page. He seems curious and like he's looking for answers. I loved the way he narrowed his list to take dk off in the next post after his 1-2 in x. His questions this page have generally been pointed in ways that look hunty. And he's showing zero panic despite being at roughly 7 votes 72 hours in. Yes it's early but with the history of recent wagons his chances of dying today are astronomical barring a massive turnaround and he's entirely nonplussed and continuing to solve and interact. Not a single sign of anti spew.
Oh. And KCC: For some reason I thought you were the first vote on my wagon at some point. Then I looked at the wagon and didn't see you so I assumed you'd unvoted. Looking back, you never actually voted me at all. I seem to have misremembered that.
I did express that I liked the question behind this wagon, but I'm really, really not interested in your lynch here
@Grape: have you looked at all of Axel’s posts?
And why is his vote worse than let’s say mine? Or Shadow’s?
@KJ: You declared DK town in post 99. His only posts were RVS in post 7 and a neutral ptap.
What made you wait until post 99 to voice your read?
I will get back to the other stuff later. I want to iso KCC now and then it’s naptime.
Yeh it is what I thought. KCC is a broken record of calling people town but not agreeing with what they say.
If I had a double vote, the second one would go to KCC.
That post of KJ where he builds up towards voting but then doesn’t is so scummy however, that I’m not going to vote elsewhere now. I don’t want us to lose the momentum there.
@grape: I like your reasoning here, but after rereading axel, I'm not interested in pushing that with you
Why not?
@Rhand I have but that was the most important thing to me. As for the difference between Axel and you or shadow the overexplainy part. You were happy to sheep, Axel felt the need to put his own spin on it. Also I don't really think that I'll solve shadow by pushing him D1. I might get somewhere with Axel.
No but really, the way he’s sort of mindlessly pushing scumreads pings scum to me. I know tom isn’t afraid to get his hands dirty as scum, but it always always always feels forced, in a “I need results **** the process” kind of way.
@grape: I like your reasoning here, but after rereading axel, I'm not interested in pushing that with you
Why not?
I liked the way he reacted to Vaimes.
He didn't accuse him of intentionally helping KJ, which would have been easy to do there if ax-scum vaimes-town. If ax/KJ-scum, ax also could have tied them together or just welcomed the help. If ax/vaimes-scum I don't see him calling it out either, not that way.
The post makes more sense from ax genuinely trying to figure out KJ.
So, the thing is, KJ, the wagon on you wasn't "bad." It was just weak, which is kind of a different thing. There wasn't much to it because there simply wasn't much that had happened in the game yet. It virtually had to be weak. I knew that when I voted, but I decided you gotta start somewhere.
I feel like you could/ought to have dismissed it with a waive of your hand and a roll of the eye (and at least some kind of superficial explanation for why you felt dking's RVS posts were Townie), but then you went and dug the hole deeper by not responding and instead promising a "full" response later (which is just always a Red Flag for me, especially when it would literally have taken two seconds), and then coming back with this huge dissection of your wagon which amounted to a virtually useless statistical analysis.
The entire point of running someone up quickly, especially with some weak reasoning - at least in my opinion - is to see what they will do. Secondarily to see how other people react to it. My feeling is generally scum will feel the pressure of it more than Town and be more likely to panic in someway. So taking a million hours off to compose your thoughts before replying is a scummy move. And that "analysis" of your wagon is another one.
Only reason I'm unvoting here is I feel the need to do some homework, in as much as I seem to recall being convinced you were scum before when you weren't and it was possibly for something like this, where your play pattern just didn't mesh with what I consider to be logical/normal behavior. I don't remember what game that was but it had to be one of the last two we played, so I'm going to do that.
@KJ: I’ll answer you later, my unexpressed thought will remain unexpressed for now though. I like the effort though, keep at it.
So, I had no problem with [unexpressed thought], and even thought it was elegant, in as much as I didn't want anyone coming in and pointing out how weak the wagon was before KJ said something about it. But now he's said something, so why is your thought remaining unexpressed?
His vote is in the sweet spot of opportunistic, overexplained, and easy.
I'll show you "overexplained"
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@grape: I like your reasoning here, but after rereading axel, I'm not interested in pushing that with you
Why not?
I liked the way he reacted to Vaimes.
He didn't accuse him of intentionally helping KJ, which would have been easy to do there if ax-scum vaimes-town. If ax/KJ-scum, ax also could have tied them together or just welcomed the help. If ax/vaimes-scum I don't see him calling it out either, not that way.
The post makes more sense from ax genuinely trying to figure out KJ.
Vaimes likes this poster and the contents of this post.
Additionally now, I like the clapback from dk in 106. He didn't just accept my townread lying down. He stopped and analyzed it and said "wait, I haven't done anything townie yet! Where is this coming from?" Scum might prefer not to put themselves out there and draw attention to the townread on themselves which they would know to be wrong (and therefore could collapse under scrutiny).
The bolded part is overexplanation. I don't think anyone, including me, would have questioned this sentiment at all if he had just stopped at "Where is this coming from?"
Tom made post 148 which is annoying to me because it's not analytical at all. It's just like "heres why scum makes that post" withoutany actual thought. It didn't actually come from me, btw. It was Voxx, post 77 of his mentor thread with Proph. " It's very, very rare that 5 town will be on a lynch in a row, especially on town." The reason I said it in the first place is it's something I look for when wagons reach 5 or 6.
There is a huge dose of OMGUS here toward Tom, and more overexplanation with the quote of the Voxx-Proph mentor bible.
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Vezok made a really solid point here. KJ threw a TON of shade at tom in 154, but doesn't put down a vote. He then weakly walks it back in 162...
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Actually that is a good point, @KJ: why no vote in that post?
Unvote cause I’m not quite ready to force a claim.
Because at current none of them are more likely scum than the others. Tom's closest because 148 but he's also Tom who would absolutely make that Post as town as well.
I'm frankly kinda surprised no one else has hit on this yet.
I don't blame you for taking "Vaimes lurked and lost" away from that game, but I'm not that easy to read anymore. Do you have anything you want to ask me that might actually shed some light on my alignment for you/anyone?
Now I can ask you... up to post 145, what exactly was it about Killjoy's posts that made you uninterested in his wagon?
Combination of him being somewhat low hanging fruit and people I don’t like pushing on him + wagon speed.
Safe to say that regardless of KJ’s alignment, there is most definitely mafia pushing there. I think it’s Cantrip and/or tom. I think if tom is scum, KJ looks better for it since tom isn’t afraid to openly defend sinking teammates.
Killjoy: can you take a look at the people who DON’T think you’re scum and talk a bit about your read on them? See who genuinely thinks you’re town and who’s trying to avoid being tied to your mislunch.
@KJ: my unexpressed thought was that my vote on you had nothing to do with you, and everything to do with making a wagon go up this early and seeing what came. I would have voted anyone there.
(That is also the reason I’m not quite ready to force a claim from KJ, cause I wasn’t pushing him for his sake.)
Gonna put together a readlist later today when work quiets some.
@KJ: my unexpressed thought was that my vote on you had nothing to do with you, and everything to do with making a wagon go up this early and seeing what came. I would have voted anyone there.
(That is also the reason I’m not quite ready to force a claim from KJ, cause I wasn’t pushing him for his sake.)
Gonna put together a readlist later today when work quiets some.
This is the correct answer! Why didn't you just say that before and instead act like there was something more to it?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Combination of him being somewhat low hanging fruit and people I don’t like pushing on him + wagon speed.
Safe to say that regardless of KJ’s alignment, there is most definitely mafia pushing there. I think it’s Cantrip and/or tom. I think if tom is scum, KJ looks better for it since tom isn’t afraid to openly defend sinking teammates.
Fair enough.
I actually have the opposite opinion regarding your last point. KJ singled out Tom repeatedly but didn't vote him, and then walked it back in 162. This reads like distancing. If he's scum, I think tom is the most likely candidate for the bus. If KJ is town, then I think Axelrod's vote is the most questionable for the reasons Grape stated earlier.
@KJ:
Grape: he’s asking questions. I think he decided not to try and pull games as town anymore.
Azrael: yes I have played with him before. I still think that read was waaaay to deep to get from one post, and that he started looking for reasons when Shadow asked him why he townread Grape.
Axel: Grape’s reasoning why Axel’s vote is bad is decent. You, however, call his vote just as bad as mine here, which is very, very different. Anyways, I did like his sheeping yes. It was a vote worth sheeping.
Fuwa: Look at her second post and her comment to Shadow. I think she was just having RVS fun, which means nothing.
Vezok: I am convinced scum would not use this wording “I will vote players if they are close to being lynched even if I believe they are town.” You can get the same thing said without literally saying that you’re going to be anti town.
KCC: see my recent post about her
You: See recent question
Beeboy: see 101. I didn’t explain why at first because I wanted to be sure it wasn’t newbieness I was looking at.
Tom made post 148 which is annoying to me because it's not analytical at all. It's just like "heres why scum makes that post" withoutany actual thought. It didn't actually come from me, btw. It was Voxx, post 77 of his mentor thread with Proph. " It's very, very rare that 5 town will be on a lynch in a row, especially on town." The reason I said it in the first place is it's something I look for when wagons reach 5 or 6.
This pings me as justification that scum might use to distract from them saying something foolish, but iirc, KJ has brought up mentor threads as gospel in other games, so noted, but NAI.
Quote from Killjoy »
I originally said there was likely 1-2 in these 6. (I say 1-2 instead of just 1 due to the speed of the wagon.)
If you're town, I think this is a good point. That was my unexpressed thought: your wagon accelerated SUPER fast, which I think is indicative either of you being town or your buddies are bussing you like mad. If the latter, I wouldn't expect it from Shadow or Tom, as I don't think either of them just write you off like that (or, at least, they wouldn't feel like bussing was the best approach over alternatives).
Quote from Killjoy »
With dking's out, there's 1-2 in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, shadowlancerx. I don't think there's >1 scum in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod as they are basically just barning each other and I don't think scum typically interact like that. Well... ballsier scum might? I don't beleive they are ballsier scum though.
I think I'm a little offended that you don't think I'm ballsy as scum. FTR, I just finished a game on MAL where I was scum in a PoE of 3-4 VT claims and I chose to keep shooting into the PoE. It ended poorly for me, of course, but that just makes me foolish, not not-ballsy.
Quote from Killjoy »
Vaimes: Yes, that was what I was asking. I recall you saying in scumchat in Hill House that that was like the 4th consecutive scumgame for you and you seemed to hate it. Good catch.
Good catch? I was ok with this response all the way up to that point, but when you posted it, I felt like you were more or less hitting Vaimes on the nose with the question. It felt pretty obvious. So why was it a "good catch"?
As for KJ kind of everything but especially this page. He seems curious and like he's looking for answers. I loved the way he narrowed his list to take dk off in the next post after his 1-2 in x. His questions this page have generally been pointed in ways that look hunty. And he's showing zero panic despite being at roughly 7 votes 72 hours in. Yes it's early but with the history of recent wagons his chances of dying today are astronomical barring a massive turnaround and he's entirely nonplussed and continuing to solve and interact. Not a single sign of anti spew.
I mostly agree with this. His comment on Fuwa in his response to Rhand's list was mildly tilting, because it sorta feels like KJ wanting to go on record as having a conversation about Fuwa.
Killjoy: can you take a look at the people who DON’T think you’re scum and talk a bit about your read on them? See who genuinely thinks you’re town and who’s trying to avoid being tied to your mislunch.
I like this question, and unless you're buddies with KJ, it probably makes you town.
@KJ: my unexpressed thought was that my vote on you had nothing to do with you, and everything to do with making a wagon go up this early and seeing what came. I would have voted anyone there.
(That is also the reason I’m not quite ready to force a claim from KJ, cause I wasn’t pushing him for his sake.)
Gonna put together a readlist later today when work quiets some.
Vaimes, I'm still tilting my head a little at you saying you got scum vibes from my 132. What specifically struck you there as deflective?
Rhand: Are you scum? I ask because normally I have a hard time reading you and you turn out town, but this game I'm mindmelding with you all over the place (to the literal point that I'm not posting some of the things I planned to post because you ninja'd me).
Vote stands for now. I'd like to hear KJ's response to Rhand's 182 as well as my comments above.
I don't agree with that vote on Tom though.
Cantrip, I might have a guess for you sooner than I expected, my reads have really started focusing with the recent posting.
So it'll either pass and I'll post late night or you'll see me tomorrow morning/night instead.
(First, Unvote)
dk and KCC came into the game all excited (which isn't necessarily a tell) but also they were kind of... the opposite of self aware a bit as well. Scum usually aren't so carefree in general, so those entrances were ones that made me say "ok, these folks might be town" and as such I gave them both townleans.
Additionally now, I like the clapback from dk in 106. He didn't just accept my townread lying down. He stopped and analyzed it and said "wait, I haven't done anything townie yet! Where is this coming from?" Scum might prefer not to put themselves out there and draw attention to the townread on themselves which they would know to be wrong (and therefore could collapse under scrutiny).
Tom made post 148 which is annoying to me because it's not analytical at all. It's just like "heres why scum makes that post" withoutany actual thought. It didn't actually come from me, btw. It was Voxx, post 77 of his mentor thread with Proph. " It's very, very rare that 5 town will be on a lynch in a row, especially on town." The reason I said it in the first place is it's something I look for when wagons reach 5 or 6.
Now, lets analyze the wagon on me.
Killjoy (6): dkingsland967, Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, shadowlancerx
dking's vote is fine as discussed above. Rhand, Cantrip, and Axel are literally all just /barning that, and tom and shadow gave no reason. Well, technically Rhand /barns dk, Cantrip /barns Rhand, and Axel just restates dk's reason.
I originally said there was likely 1-2 in these 6. (I say 1-2 instead of just 1 due to the speed of the wagon.) With dking's out, there's 1-2 in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, shadowlancerx. I don't think there's >1 scum in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod as they are basically just barning each other and I don't think scum typically interact like that. Well... ballsier scum might? I don't beleive they are ballsier scum though.
That leaves tom and shadow. There COULD be both scum here, as tom and shadow are both proficient and ballsy scum players who go against typcial scum tropes. But assuming that also goes against Occum's Razor since assuming that tom and shadow are both powerwolfing at this stage is not super likely. If there IS exactly 1 scum in there, tom is more likely due to 148 because it's could easily be malicious, whereras shadow hasn't done anything like that to me.
Now on to other things.
Vaimes: Yes, that was what I was asking. I recall you saying in scumchat in Hill House that that was like the 4th consecutive scumgame for you and you seemed to hate it. Good catch.
Rhand: Talk to me about this game. What else do you have opinions on?
Shadow: I'd really like a reason for your vote. You say 'unexpressed opinion'. What is that opinion?
I'm not gonna bother asking tom since there's a very likely chance he just won't answer and that'll tilt me again.
vote KJ
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Also, fwiw, I got wagoned up to 5 in Dark and stormy night a while back. I was town, the whole wagon was also town. So it is possible.
Unvote cause I’m not quite ready to force a claim.
Vote Count 1.8
Killjoy (6): dkingsland967, Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, vezokpiraka
Cantripmancer (2): Fuwa, Vaimes
Grapefruit21 (1): Sir Chris
Fuwa (1): KittyCupCake
Rhand (1): Grapefruit21
shadowlancerx (1): beeboy
Syrenz (1): Azrael
tomsloger (1): Syrenz
Abstain (2): Killjoy, shadowlancerx
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
Fuwa V/LA until 8/6/2019
Shadow: oh I remember. I was scum that game, and was pushing that "hey there's probably scum in that pool pretty hard. No one bit, sadly.
Does the fact they only one person has a good reason to be on it not bother you at all?
They=that
Tom, what are your thoughts on KJ’s wagon? Any vote stick out to you?
What exactly are you mind melding on? Just the KJ part?
Dk/Vaimes slightly >rand to be buddies.
He voiced the feeling I have about KCC. I wanted to see more from her before pursuing my gut there, but I get the same vibes.
He also seems to be the only one that shares how I feel about Azrael.
@Shadow: why would it be bad to force KJ to claim?
@KJ: how does me being non-existent have anything to do with my alignment?
And why are you asking me if I have opinions on anything else while there’s plenty of that in my posts?
I'm pushing you to do more. More you doing stuff=more you being readable.
Go go go.
Woot.
Vote: Axel
AZ did feel a bit pockety.
That interaction where Vaimes asked if they'd played before just felt really forced. Like he felt like he needed to cover for Dk.
1. Vaimes - lean town because of him voicing a KJ town read during the wagon build and his cheerful attitude.
2. Grapefruit21 - null: doesn’t seem to have any strong opinions, but does look like he’s looking for them. Town if Azrael is scum.
3. Azrael - lean scum: his Grape read is way too deep
4. Axelrod - lean town: his KJ vote is decent
5. tomsloger - lean scum: he seems to be open wolfing
6. Sir Chris - null
7. Fuwa - null
8. Cantripmancer - lean town for his digging into Shadow
9. Shadowlancerx - town for his Vezok read
10. vezokpiraka - town for his claim
11. Rhand
12. KittyCupCake r. KillerCandyCorn - lean scum: gutread
13. Syrenz - null
14. dkingsland967 - town for mindmeld
15. killjoy - scum
16. beeboy - lean scum
Why is his approach town?
And why Axel?
Blue is mine.
Also thanks for posting this upon request. <3
His vote is in the sweet spot of opportunistic, overexplained, and easy.
As for KJ kind of everything but especially this page. He seems curious and like he's looking for answers. I loved the way he narrowed his list to take dk off in the next post after his 1-2 in x. His questions this page have generally been pointed in ways that look hunty. And he's showing zero panic despite being at roughly 7 votes 72 hours in. Yes it's early but with the history of recent wagons his chances of dying today are astronomical barring a massive turnaround and he's entirely nonplussed and continuing to solve and interact. Not a single sign of anti spew.
Wouldnt be with the vezok/beeboy grouping though
I did express that I liked the question behind this wagon, but I'm really, really not interested in your lynch here
3 of these are among my top town reads. I'm going to have fun playing with you, aren't I?
@kj: Just so you know, your read of my RVS is very wrong. I don't agree with the dk read there either, but I think he's town now
@grape: I like your reasoning here, but after rereading axel, I'm not interested in pushing that with you
And why is his vote worse than let’s say mine? Or Shadow’s?
@KJ: You declared DK town in post 99. His only posts were RVS in post 7 and a neutral ptap.
What made you wait until post 99 to voice your read?
I will get back to the other stuff later. I want to iso KCC now and then it’s naptime.
If I had a double vote, the second one would go to KCC.
That post of KJ where he builds up towards voting but then doesn’t is so scummy however, that I’m not going to vote elsewhere now. I don’t want us to lose the momentum there.
Why not?
@Rhand I have but that was the most important thing to me. As for the difference between Axel and you or shadow the overexplainy part. You were happy to sheep, Axel felt the need to put his own spin on it. Also I don't really think that I'll solve shadow by pushing him D1. I might get somewhere with Axel.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Word vomit sorry.
I liked the way he reacted to Vaimes.
He didn't accuse him of intentionally helping KJ, which would have been easy to do there if ax-scum vaimes-town. If ax/KJ-scum, ax also could have tied them together or just welcomed the help. If ax/vaimes-scum I don't see him calling it out either, not that way.
The post makes more sense from ax genuinely trying to figure out KJ.
So, the thing is, KJ, the wagon on you wasn't "bad." It was just weak, which is kind of a different thing. There wasn't much to it because there simply wasn't much that had happened in the game yet. It virtually had to be weak. I knew that when I voted, but I decided you gotta start somewhere.
I feel like you could/ought to have dismissed it with a waive of your hand and a roll of the eye (and at least some kind of superficial explanation for why you felt dking's RVS posts were Townie), but then you went and dug the hole deeper by not responding and instead promising a "full" response later (which is just always a Red Flag for me, especially when it would literally have taken two seconds), and then coming back with this huge dissection of your wagon which amounted to a virtually useless statistical analysis.
The entire point of running someone up quickly, especially with some weak reasoning - at least in my opinion - is to see what they will do. Secondarily to see how other people react to it. My feeling is generally scum will feel the pressure of it more than Town and be more likely to panic in someway. So taking a million hours off to compose your thoughts before replying is a scummy move. And that "analysis" of your wagon is another one.
Only reason I'm unvoting here is I feel the need to do some homework, in as much as I seem to recall being convinced you were scum before when you weren't and it was possibly for something like this, where your play pattern just didn't mesh with what I consider to be logical/normal behavior. I don't remember what game that was but it had to be one of the last two we played, so I'm going to do that.
So, I had no problem with [unexpressed thought], and even thought it was elegant, in as much as I didn't want anyone coming in and pointing out how weak the wagon was before KJ said something about it. But now he's said something, so why is your thought remaining unexpressed?
I'll show you "overexplained"
The bolded part is overexplanation. I don't think anyone, including me, would have questioned this sentiment at all if he had just stopped at "Where is this coming from?"
There is a huge dose of OMGUS here toward Tom, and more overexplanation with the quote of the Voxx-Proph mentor bible.
Vezok made a really solid point here. KJ threw a TON of shade at tom in 154, but doesn't put down a vote. He then weakly walks it back in 162...
I'm frankly kinda surprised no one else has hit on this yet.
This makes no sense. In what context would Vaimes need to "cover" for me?
Now I can ask you... up to post 145, what exactly was it about Killjoy's posts that made you uninterested in his wagon?
Safe to say that regardless of KJ’s alignment, there is most definitely mafia pushing there. I think it’s Cantrip and/or tom. I think if tom is scum, KJ looks better for it since tom isn’t afraid to openly defend sinking teammates.
(That is also the reason I’m not quite ready to force a claim from KJ, cause I wasn’t pushing him for his sake.)
Gonna put together a readlist later today when work quiets some.
This is the correct answer! Why didn't you just say that before and instead act like there was something more to it?
Who are those?
Fair enough.
I actually have the opposite opinion regarding your last point. KJ singled out Tom repeatedly but didn't vote him, and then walked it back in 162. This reads like distancing. If he's scum, I think tom is the most likely candidate for the bus. If KJ is town, then I think Axelrod's vote is the most questionable for the reasons Grape stated earlier.
Grape: he’s asking questions. I think he decided not to try and pull games as town anymore.
Azrael: yes I have played with him before. I still think that read was waaaay to deep to get from one post, and that he started looking for reasons when Shadow asked him why he townread Grape.
Axel: Grape’s reasoning why Axel’s vote is bad is decent. You, however, call his vote just as bad as mine here, which is very, very different. Anyways, I did like his sheeping yes. It was a vote worth sheeping.
Fuwa: Look at her second post and her comment to Shadow. I think she was just having RVS fun, which means nothing.
Vezok: I am convinced scum would not use this wording “I will vote players if they are close to being lynched even if I believe they are town.” You can get the same thing said without literally saying that you’re going to be anti town.
KCC: see my recent post about her
You: See recent question
Beeboy: see 101. I didn’t explain why at first because I wanted to be sure it wasn’t newbieness I was looking at.
If you're town, I think this is a good point. That was my unexpressed thought: your wagon accelerated SUPER fast, which I think is indicative either of you being town or your buddies are bussing you like mad. If the latter, I wouldn't expect it from Shadow or Tom, as I don't think either of them just write you off like that (or, at least, they wouldn't feel like bussing was the best approach over alternatives).
I think I'm a little offended that you don't think I'm ballsy as scum. FTR, I just finished a game on MAL where I was scum in a PoE of 3-4 VT claims and I chose to keep shooting into the PoE. It ended poorly for me, of course, but that just makes me foolish, not not-ballsy.
Good catch? I was ok with this response all the way up to that point, but when you posted it, I felt like you were more or less hitting Vaimes on the nose with the question. It felt pretty obvious. So why was it a "good catch"?
Why test for a reaction then spell out the behavior you would expect from one alignment or the other before Rhand has a chance to respond?
I mostly agree with this. His comment on Fuwa in his response to Rhand's list was mildly tilting, because it sorta feels like KJ wanting to go on record as having a conversation about Fuwa.
I like this question, and unless you're buddies with KJ, it probably makes you town.
Hark! A wild town!Shadow appeareth!
KCC, what did you think of my 44?
Vaimes, I'm still tilting my head a little at you saying you got scum vibes from my 132. What specifically struck you there as deflective?
Rhand: Are you scum? I ask because normally I have a hard time reading you and you turn out town, but this game I'm mindmelding with you all over the place (to the literal point that I'm not posting some of the things I planned to post because you ninja'd me).
Vote stands for now. I'd like to hear KJ's response to Rhand's 182 as well as my comments above.