I'm liking shadow a lot here and KCC, Sir Chris and Cantrip a bit.
I'm not liking Vaimes, but it's more of a feeling than some concrete thoughts.
Also Fuwa looks pretty good right now. I like that he's sticking to his guns on cantrip and actually enjoys having someone on his wagon. Idk why but it seems like a sincere thought that comes from town more often than from scum.
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KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Anyway the only content so far in the thread is a somewhat of a role claim in thread which I am neutral on.
And Shadow saying that makes the person town, which I find kind of odd and a wolfy analysis given I think the approach to the role is pretty standard regardless of what alignment you are and that to me feels kind of obvious.
The scum would make plans argument feels weird to me? It's not like a crazy role like that would be unexpected in a game like this.
Like it feels more like saying something because you can / to generate content rather then a real read.
I think I am ok with this vote at least for now. I'll obviously see how things develop.
Like sometimes I see posts I come up with thoughts and I decide if there stupid or not and either post it anyway or don't post it.
As scum I usually just let the post fly and that's what Shadow's post felt like.
Hi beeboy, what is your take on my breakdown of why I think the claim comes from town more often than scum both in the scenario that the role really does need to be on a wagon or if that is made up?
So when you said "gross", it felt a little like shade. Because you said you thought it made him town, but you applied a negative connotation up front. Obviously you'd say I'm reading too much into this as either alignment; can you articulate why you'd apply a descriptor that paints Vez's action in a negative light if you think he's town?
I’m gonna start here cause it’s the heart of the matter. The idea of a player planning to lynch anyone and everyone that gets wagoned to lynch, including town reads is gross. I don’t like it, it’s not play I think is healthy (even though it can pan out, take Tom’s role in secret agent Mafia as an example). Absolutely agree that it’s a negative connotation. Saying it up front and recognizing that he might as well mention it ahead of time comes from a place that I would bet is townie 9/10 times.
My read on this is similar. To choose to vote even when it means town dies is absolutely self-serving. However, claiming this early does read more town to me and while I'd admit that it has been 7 years, I do remember Vezok being an entirely self-serving player.
It's long weekend in Canada here - will likely be inactive till Monday.
My read on this is similar. To choose to vote even when it means town dies is absolutely self-serving. However, claiming this early does read more town to me and while I'd admit that it has been 7 years, I do remember Vezok being an entirely self-serving player.
It's long weekend in Canada here - will likely be inactive till Monday.
And Shadow saying that makes the person town, which I find kind of odd and a wolfy analysis given I think the approach to the role is pretty standard regardless of what alignment you are and that to me feels kind of obvious.
I've had a role along those lines as scum, and that is not how I approached it.
Ignore the first part lol. I started to write the post, realised I missed that quote and started typing it again without noticing my original text was still in the box.
I'm not seeing beeboy scum. Several people have expressed town reads on shadows and his first post as scum would be to go after shadow for almost no reason? Doesn't sound plausible atm.
KCC seems like scum to me. Just from the last post, the defense against az is meh and saying that she had a role as scum that was similar to mine and she approached it the same way doesn't really help anything except throw some very small shade at me. It would have been a much better comment if she told us what her role was exactly or at least give some info about it and explain why they approached it this way as scum.
vote KCC
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-It was Conflux. I was a SK who needed to score 7 kills to win, either by hammering or using my odd-night-only kill. I started the game hinting at a vote restriction before false claiming that I could only vote first or last on a wagon, so I could pseudovote players and then once a Lynch was decided I could I fill in my vote with the hammer I needed.
Had I been town with a similar ability of needing to score lynches for some benefit, I probably would have claimed that in my first post like you did here, and it's definitely what I should have done there.
I don't get the shadow town reads. Everything he said is reasonable, but that's not really a reason to town read him. Not really interested in trying to read shadow this early.
I think I like Vez embracing shadow over shadow embracing him. They could be buddies but I think it's much more likely that town!Vez feels like he got read correctly.
I don't get the shadow town reads. Everything he said is reasonable, but that's not really a reason to town read him. Not really interested in trying to read shadow this early.
I think I like Vez embracing shadow over shadow embracing him. They could be buddies but I think it's much more likely that town!Vez feels like he got read correctly.
@Rhand what do you like from Shadow here?
Vote Grapefruit
While you’re correct that reasonableness Is not AI for me (and I’d like to maintain that I’ve not really done anything in the way of truly AI) I don’t really think reasonable is the best description of my play thus far. I think assertive is more accurate, would you disagree?
While you’re correct that reasonableness Is not AI for me (and I’d like to maintain that I’ve not really done anything in the way of truly AI) I don’t really think reasonable is the best description of my play thus far. I think assertive is more accurate, would you disagree?
I don't know that your style has made all that much of an impression as of yet, but I think both you and Grape are wrong and town.
Can elaborate more on *frown reads* later, time's not right.
unvote, vote syrenz. Care to explain what's up with that post?
vote beeboy vote Beeboy
What is your mafia experience?
I've been playing mafia for around 6 years.
Obviously I have taken breaks during that time but overall I'd consider myself to be pretty comfortable with the game.
Hi beeboy, what is your take on my breakdown of why I think the claim comes from town more often than scum both in the scenario that the role really does need to be on a wagon or if that is made up?
I mean it's what I originally said, it kinda just feels like a thought you made because you could not a genuine read? I am having trouble explaining this but you know how as you play this game more regardless of your alignment you sometimes just see things and you know what to say sort of instinctively. That's what it felt like to me and then you just took it up a few scales and made it a town read.
If scum pull a role that says “you get x if you’re on the lynch wagon” then that scum player more than likely plans to adjust their play and reads so that you can make that work. Much less likely that you take the approach of being candid about it off the bat.
I am going to just respond to this half for now as more or less I am ok with how you think town would approach the role. I don't think he is approaching his role optimally but I think the town or scum thought process is there.
But how much do you really think this is true? In a role-madness game a scum player has to claim some kind of role, and there own role when possible certainly reasonable and safe. The requirement to use his role isn't something that would hinder him if scum I have seen roles similar or exactly like he described his a few times and it isn't an unbelievable role either. So the pros of just playing honestly are clearly there, you get your role you get to vote whoever. Maybe your forced to bus more often but it evens out.
The cons of not being open about his role is he would need to find an excuse to end up on every wagon. Which is just playing like how a wolf would play but you take it up a few notches to make it more obvious your a wolf.
And given the level of thought it looks like you put into the read I feel like both pros and cons that came to me pretty fast would have came to you as well.
For the same post you voted him, mostly the second half of it.
Why is the second half of that post a town thought specifically?
Quote from Beeboy »
you know how as you play this game more regardless of your alignment you sometimes just see things and you know what to say sort of instinctively. That's what it felt like to me and then you just took it up a few scales and made it a town read.
If this is the case, that I would know what to say instinctively regardless of my alignment, then why was it vote worthy?
@Cantrip: It’s gross for a couple of reasons. Being willing to lynch people you actively think are town (outside of last second no lynch avoidance, which is bad play on a game wide level for letting it get to that) is a scum mentality. Additionally, saying that up front means that there is no accountability; I can’t ask Vez tomorrow why he lynched someone today, which completely eliminates an avenue of generating a read on him.
As far as why he’s probably town is because he just page one gave out mechanical info, knowing that he was planning to do something that he likely doesn’t want to and knows has bad ramifications.
If this isn't reasonableness then I don't know what to call it.
I also read the wrong reasons into Rhand's town read apparently. I'm not sure I buy you town clearing someone as a move outside your scum range but it makes more sense than it being based on the reasoning provided for the clear.
I don't get the shadow town reads. Everything he said is reasonable, but that's not really a reason to town read him. Not really interested in trying to read shadow this early.
I think I like Vez embracing shadow over shadow embracing him. They could be buddies but I think it's much more likely that town!Vez feels like he got read correctly.
@Rhand what do you like from Shadow here?
I like that you can track the flow of his townie thought process through this. Step 1, caution regarding Shadow, respect for his abilities, registering that concern. Progresses naturally to reading the Vez situation/interaction, decisively rules out one alternative, in favor of a meta-based town read. So he's not hesitant to town clear in general, he's adjusting his town-reading willingness depending on his threat assessment of the player and the particular interactions at issue. Finally, follows up with a fairly intelligent and useful inquiry designed to springboard off the earlier concerns, signalling genuine interest in both the interaction and gathering opinions from others.
@Cantrip: It’s gross for a couple of reasons. Being willing to lynch people you actively think are town (outside of last second no lynch avoidance, which is bad play on a game wide level for letting it get to that) is a scum mentality. Additionally, saying that up front means that there is no accountability; I can’t ask Vez tomorrow why he lynched someone today, which completely eliminates an avenue of generating a read on him.
As far as why he’s probably town is because he just page one gave out mechanical info, knowing that he was planning to do something that he likely doesn’t want to and knows has bad ramifications.
If this isn't reasonableness then I don't know what to call it.
I also read the wrong reasons into Rhand's town read apparently. I'm not sure I buy you town clearing someone as a move outside your scum range but it makes more sense than it being based on the reasoning provided for the clear.
This post bothers me a bit. Mostly because it says that shadow town cleared me which is far from what happened. Maybe I got it wrong, but it looked like shadow was giving a read based on the info I provided and that it could change at any time depending on what else happens in the game. In my experience, scum are more likely to believe someone has been town cleared than townies, because they think much more about this subject.
But at the end of the day, it's grape who posted this and he's been known to make weird posts as both alignments.
For the moment,
vote grapefruit
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Alright i think i can confidently call cantrip town. No cloying seediness at all and he straight up hasnt addressed that leak in his scumgame yet afaik.
Fuwa and az also seem pretty town. Something something working their way into gameflow
Kcc response to az (something like "youre reading that post in the wrong tone") is the sort of confident, nonshowy "im town" brushoff that only the best scum can fake
Vez might be scum (with beeboy?) but shadows reasoning re: the claim is interesting
Think i wanna vote axel but this could just as easily be vaimes/chris/dkingsland/syren think theres some scum (other than me) that havent done anything yet
Vez... I was talking about Rhand's thought process. Rhand said he town read Shadow for town clearing you. My point is should Rhand's town read of Shadow have happened. I'm leaning towards not given that it's shadow. I know Rhand thinks he can read shadow, and scum do hate cutting off pushes but I don't think I believe that Rhand is town reading shadow off that. Shadow town clearing you when he really isn't even fully doing that given the shade involved is completely within his scum range and more importantly something I think town!Rhand believes is in his scum range.
Vote: Rhand
@Shadow what in your own words is the difference between "laid out reasoning" and "reasonableness". They seem utterly similar to me.
@Tom Has axel even done anything?
I should probably read BeeBoy's posts at some stage. Something has trained my eyes to skim over posts from pastel colored anime avatars.
So, I agree with Shadow's posting on vez insofar as yes, scum do like voting for town, and having excuses to do so. But that's where it ends. I think the reaction of 'it's very likely bad' feels... mildly hyperbolic?
I'm liking shadow a lot here and KCC, Sir Chris and Cantrip a bit.
I'm not liking Vaimes, but it's more of a feeling than some concrete thoughts.
Also Fuwa looks pretty good right now. I like that he's sticking to his guns on cantrip and actually enjoys having someone on his wagon. Idk why but it seems like a sincere thought that comes from town more often than from scum.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm not liking Vaimes, but it's more of a feeling than some concrete thoughts.
Also Fuwa looks pretty good right now. I like that he's sticking to his guns on cantrip and actually enjoys having someone on his wagon. Idk why but it seems like a sincere thought that comes from town more often than from scum.
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Talk me through this unvote->vote.
I tire of saying "pseudo-VLA for the weekend", because it's not really V/LA; I just can't post as frequently or reliably...
ALwWPI Announcement: Until Monday
Vez's claim convinced me he shouldn't be lynched for simply existing.
Fuwa, I haven't liked how he has tried interacting with others.
I expect you all to have done something AI by then
I'm kinda feeling a weird overly innocent tone coming from Fuwa... but I'm not sure if that's just normal for them.
Vote Count 1.3
Cantripmancer (3): shadowlancerx, Fuwa, Vaimes
Fuwa (2): Grapefruit21, KittyCupCake
KittyCupCake (1): tomsloger
Syrenz (1): vezokpiraka
dkingsland967 (1): Rhand
Rhand (1): dkingsland967
Azrael (1): Killjoy
tomsloger (1): Axelrod
Abstain (5): Azrael, Sir Chris, Syrenz, beeboy, Cantripmancer
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
Fuwa has requested to be V/LA for the next three days. Cantrip has requested to be V/LA until Monday.
Azrael and beeboy have been prodded.
*frowns*
KCC, please describe your level of mafia experience and why it is that you're nervous atm.
Vez town, shadow town, thru pg 1.
Nervous about rolling scum after such a long hiatus?
vote kcc. Welcome back.
I haven't played with any of you outside Cantrip before but I look forward to this game.
And Shadow saying that makes the person town, which I find kind of odd and a wolfy analysis given I think the approach to the role is pretty standard regardless of what alignment you are and that to me feels kind of obvious.
The scum would make plans argument feels weird to me? It's not like a crazy role like that would be unexpected in a game like this.
Like it feels more like saying something because you can / to generate content rather then a real read.
I think I am ok with this vote at least for now. I'll obviously see how things develop.
vote: Shadow
As scum I usually just let the post fly and that's what Shadow's post felt like.
False statement its more the posts that stuck out to me.
My read on this is similar. To choose to vote even when it means town dies is absolutely self-serving. However, claiming this early does read more town to me and while I'd admit that it has been 7 years, I do remember Vezok being an entirely self-serving player.
It's long weekend in Canada here - will likely be inactive till Monday.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
*More frowns*
I'm not sure on that either, but it's the only thing I've seen worth poking so far.
And yes, she/her
You're reading my post with the wrong tone, az.
I've had a role along those lines as scum, and that is not how I approached it.
What is your mafia experience?
Early town reads on sha
You already did though.
vote Beeboy
What is your mafia experience?
Town reads on Vezok, Shadow, Cantrip.
Vezok for the claim, Shadow for his reaction to it and Cantrip for diving into Shadow’s mindset.
Vote Count 1.4
Cantripmancer (3): shadowlancerx, Fuwa, Vaimes
Fuwa (2): Grapefruit21, KittyCupCake
KittyCupCake (2): tomsloger, Azrael
Syrenz (1): vezokpiraka
Rhand (1): dkingsland967
Azrael (1): Killjoy
tomsloger (1): Axelrod
shadowlancerx (1): beeboy
beeboy (1): Rhand
Abstain (3): Sir Chris, Syrenz, Cantripmancer
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
Fuwa V/LA until 8/6/2019
Cantrip V/LA until 8/5/2019
KCC seems like scum to me. Just from the last post, the defense against az is meh and saying that she had a role as scum that was similar to mine and she approached it the same way doesn't really help anything except throw some very small shade at me. It would have been a much better comment if she told us what her role was exactly or at least give some info about it and explain why they approached it this way as scum.
vote KCC
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I did NOT approach it the same way, is the word you missed there.
Yeah, that seems to make a lot more sense than what I understood.
unvote
Still would like to know what your role did.
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I’m pretty much never around on weekends, will dive into this game tomorrow morning.
Yeah, I was curious too after your previous post.
-It was Conflux. I was a SK who needed to score 7 kills to win, either by hammering or using my odd-night-only kill. I started the game hinting at a vote restriction before false claiming that I could only vote first or last on a wagon, so I could pseudovote players and then once a Lynch was decided I could I fill in my vote with the hammer I needed.
Had I been town with a similar ability of needing to score lynches for some benefit, I probably would have claimed that in my first post like you did here, and it's definitely what I should have done there.
I think I like Vez embracing shadow over shadow embracing him. They could be buddies but I think it's much more likely that town!Vez feels like he got read correctly.
@Rhand what do you like from Shadow here?
Scum!Shadow would not post this I think. Too early for a townclear.
While you’re correct that reasonableness Is not AI for me (and I’d like to maintain that I’ve not really done anything in the way of truly AI) I don’t really think reasonable is the best description of my play thus far. I think assertive is more accurate, would you disagree?
I don't know that your style has made all that much of an impression as of yet, but I think both you and Grape are wrong and town.
Can elaborate more on *frown reads* later, time's not right.
unvote, vote syrenz. Care to explain what's up with that post?
I've been playing mafia for around 6 years.
Obviously I have taken breaks during that time but overall I'd consider myself to be pretty comfortable with the game.
I am also a moderator on the amazing new site mafia451. <- This plug is very much needed content.
I mean it's what I originally said, it kinda just feels like a thought you made because you could not a genuine read? I am having trouble explaining this but you know how as you play this game more regardless of your alignment you sometimes just see things and you know what to say sort of instinctively. That's what it felt like to me and then you just took it up a few scales and made it a town read.
I am going to just respond to this half for now as more or less I am ok with how you think town would approach the role. I don't think he is approaching his role optimally but I think the town or scum thought process is there.
But how much do you really think this is true? In a role-madness game a scum player has to claim some kind of role, and there own role when possible certainly reasonable and safe. The requirement to use his role isn't something that would hinder him if scum I have seen roles similar or exactly like he described his a few times and it isn't an unbelievable role either. So the pros of just playing honestly are clearly there, you get your role you get to vote whoever. Maybe your forced to bus more often but it evens out.
The cons of not being open about his role is he would need to find an excuse to end up on every wagon. Which is just playing like how a wolf would play but you take it up a few notches to make it more obvious your a wolf.
And given the level of thought it looks like you put into the read I feel like both pros and cons that came to me pretty fast would have came to you as well.
If this isn't reasonableness then I don't know what to call it.
I also read the wrong reasons into Rhand's town read apparently. I'm not sure I buy you town clearing someone as a move outside your scum range but it makes more sense than it being based on the reasoning provided for the clear.
I like that you can track the flow of his townie thought process through this. Step 1, caution regarding Shadow, respect for his abilities, registering that concern. Progresses naturally to reading the Vez situation/interaction, decisively rules out one alternative, in favor of a meta-based town read. So he's not hesitant to town clear in general, he's adjusting his town-reading willingness depending on his threat assessment of the player and the particular interactions at issue. Finally, follows up with a fairly intelligent and useful inquiry designed to springboard off the earlier concerns, signalling genuine interest in both the interaction and gathering opinions from others.
Textbook pro-town mindset.
Alright, I’ll buy it.
Vote Count 1.5
Cantripmancer (2): Fuwa, Vaimes
Fuwa (2): Grapefruit21, KittyCupCake
KittyCupCake (1): tomsloger
Rhand (1): dkingsland967
Azrael (1): Killjoy
tomsloger (1): Axelrod
shadowlancerx (1): beeboy
beeboy (1): Rhand
Syrenz (1): Azrael
Abstain (5): Sir Chris, Syrenz, Cantripmancer, vezokpiraka, shadowlancerx
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
Fuwa V/LA until 8/6/2019
Cantrip V/LA until 8/5/2019
This post bothers me a bit. Mostly because it says that shadow town cleared me which is far from what happened. Maybe I got it wrong, but it looked like shadow was giving a read based on the info I provided and that it could change at any time depending on what else happens in the game. In my experience, scum are more likely to believe someone has been town cleared than townies, because they think much more about this subject.
But at the end of the day, it's grape who posted this and he's been known to make weird posts as both alignments.
For the moment,
vote grapefruit
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Fuwa and az also seem pretty town. Something something working their way into gameflow
Kcc response to az (something like "youre reading that post in the wrong tone") is the sort of confident, nonshowy "im town" brushoff that only the best scum can fake
Vez might be scum (with beeboy?) but shadows reasoning re: the claim is interesting
Think i wanna
vote axel but this could just as easily be vaimes/chris/dkingsland/syren think theres some scum (other than me) that havent done anything yet
Vote: Rhand
@Shadow what in your own words is the difference between "laid out reasoning" and "reasonableness". They seem utterly similar to me.
@Tom Has axel even done anything?
I should probably read BeeBoy's posts at some stage. Something has trained my eyes to skim over posts from pastel colored anime avatars.
KJ, Vez, Az, and Cantrip can all be town for now.
I'm townleaning on KCC and dkingsland.
Rhand could def be town.
Expand on shadow and KCC.
Vaimes: Having fun yet this game?
Tom: Do you know Fuwa at all from other sites? What if anything do you know of his playstyle?