I wanted to say can we not shoot beeboy, but I honestly can't find a towny thing to say about those posts
can we at least wait for some more content from Meg?
You're supposedly scumreading me because my assertion that I'm an easy mislynch is weird but you didn't actually try and figure out if it's true before scumreading me for it.
Is it weird to assume you have some sort of past impression of another player from a previous game? No. You saying "I can't rebut that because I have no memory of past games" seems to be implying that you think I knew that and am using that against you. Why would I know that about you?
If you wanna vote me then do it. Put your money where your mouth is. Put your fake read under a magnefying glass.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
beeboy's 65 is really kinda hedgy for what it's doing.
His 66 feels pure though. The idea that "this is how I would respond as scum, and this is exactly what he's doing" is one that I could see town!Beeboy looking for in others and jumping on.
Vezok's 76 seems to be voting KCC for not elaborating on what her role was in another game? I can't tell if I'm reading that right?
Grape's 81 sticks out a bit because it starts by questioning the shadow town reads then follows it up by saying he's not trying to read shadow right now.
I kind of like Shadow's vote on Grape in 83. It specifically goes contrary to the accusations of reasonableness that Grape was commenting on (blankvoting is usually unreasonable) and is slightly reballious.
Az's 91 re: Grape could be a thing, knowing Az's alignment now. Az re[resents Grape's post as pure, but that's not entirely accurate. That is to say there's no way to tell if it's thoughts he's actually having or if he's just positioning himself there. It's not definiively pure like Az is saying.
I'm not a fan of Grape's 97. That vote on Rhand is a little awkward. Also, independent of knowing that Rhand is for sure town now, I don't think his townread of shadow is a good enough reason to scumread Rhand. Rhand townreading someone early isn't scum indicative of Rhand.
Grape: How did you feel about Az's 91 when he posted it?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Killjoy
I didnt say it was a scum read, you said it was a scum read
I've talk about my memory in the past being a problem, so yes by the same logic, you should know this
I am happy where my vote is
Quick reread I still think Beeboy is more likely to be town then naught based on the way he came into the thread, he says his day 1 is weak, and I've seen his wolf game first hand, he just does not come into this game talking about the game being role madness as a wolf, nor does any wolf for that matter
OK fine, I'll move. Grapefruit can wait for more analysis since people think I'm chasing ghosts with him.
Vote Azrael
@Killjoy, I apologize if you said previously that work was keeping you from being active. I must have missed it. Now, since you're specifically one of the players not pushing against Azrael, what do you think of his 311 in response to Rhand asking for a scum game?
I remember that Az likes playing town more than scum and this certainly doesn't look like Az enjoying anything. This isn't the main reason I think he is scum, but it certainly don't help his case.
I don't like the fact that he gave some terrible reads with awful reasoning. I also need to be on the lynch wagon and L-2 is too close for my liking.
Null
(only because I can barely remember a post of their's off the top of my head, and I've been ignoring them)
DK
KCC
Below Neutral:
Axel
Cantrip
Fuwa
Possible Scum?
Grape
Killjoy
The really don't wanna touch today category:
Shadow
Chris
might be some inconsistencies, who knows, this is off the top of my head
dont @ me
looks like I missed Vez, ill just /barn Shadow for now
is a scummy T/S list
vezok counterclaiming this early +town though since it would be risky to lock oneself into a claim that early. though, JOAT so not as +town as otherwise. (agreeing with Chris's 860 here) -- throw in the lynch wagon bit and I guess it's kind of neutral all things considered.
speaking of claims, fun fact, i didn't realize this was a speciality until yesterday.
Frankly, even with no overlap, it’s questionable design to put two Joats on the same team (of course now I’ll have to do so in a game).
I think for me it comes down to not wanting to be in limbo on Az’s slot until Day 3, only to hear about how something went wrong and he has nothing for us. And with the bomb claim we can’t even count on the role to self resolve.
Barned me leaning town on Az's claim but kept his vote on Az, keeping him at -2.
Hi that's a scum move.
noting this as I think i saw some discussion the last couple of days about Chris being scum(?) for defending az, mentally noting that this is where that started. he went from this vote pretty quickly back to grapefruit and at neither point touches Shadow. maybe have been townreading shadow, need to confirm but either way is scum really trying to start a *fresh* wagon so close to EOD? what does that accomplish? like chris deliberately avoided the easy route of pushing the shadow wagon, which means one of a few different things but the easiest one is that he... is town right?
let me keep reading on this.
i'm up to pg 20, will keep going.
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1. Vaimes
2. Grapefruit21
3. Azrael
4. Axelrod
5. tomsloger
6. Sir Chris
7. Fuwa
8. Cantripmancer
9. shadowlancerx
10. vezokpiraka
11. Rhand
12. KittyCupCake r. KillerCandyCorn
13. Lastwhisper r. Syrenz
14. dkingsland967
15. killjoy
16. beeboy
So let me build out a world and see how it goes.
Vaimes is town due to reaction to Az's claim
Vezok is trown due to reaction to Az's claim
KCC has displayed earnest which I tend to lean to town
Wagonomics make me think Shadow/Az are town
Psychology of posting makes me think Beeboy is town as well
It's my list so I get to be town too
4-5 scum in
Grapefruit
Axel
Tom
Fuwa
Cantripmancer
Rhand
LW
DKings
Killjoy
Of these 9, 5 were off the two main wagons (GF, Axel, Tom, Fuwa, LW)
3 were on Az (Cantripmancer, Rhand, dkings)
and 1 was on Shadow (Killjoy)
I don't think Az' wagon was pure, but I have severe doubts three scum hopped onto him if all my assumptions above are correct so 1-2 scum in Mancer/Rhand/DK, with me leaning towards one.
Killjoy is probably just scum if I am right about all of my town reads.
Which leaves 2-3 in the "we don't care who dies among the town members, so we'll just stay on our random wagons."
Az I know you are lying about a certain part of your claim. I think you did it for town reasons but now is the time to come clean about what you lied about. If you don't I can't keep defending you.
Not all details of ability #2 are either disclosed or accurate. Good enough?
Yes, ty
i was going to do the same thing so I'll just quote kcc who did it first.
My read on this is similar. To choose to vote even when it means town dies is absolutely self-serving. However, claiming this early does read more town to me and while I'd admit that it has been 7 years, I do remember Vezok being an entirely self-serving player.
It's long weekend in Canada here - will likely be inactive till Monday.
This is the post I was picking on Syrenz/LW to tell me what was wrong with it.
Here, Syrenz/LW slot entertains two opposed and contrary ideas at the same time, and then decides to choose one of them, on the spot. This is a thing scum tend to do, because they are having to decide how to view a post, rather than having an immediate organic reaction to it, and they tend to use strong language with regard to both alternatives while townies use their strong language on only the alternative they favor.
Syrenz himself only had 4 other posts, and nothing in the other three popped to me. Gonna post this short one, then see if my formatting's working as intended before dreadnoughting.
I know--from my own mindset this game, even--that it's not uncommon for this "on the one hand this, but on the other that" mindset to come from town, and Syrenz takes a stance on where he ends up in his thought process.
Anyway I didn't know if he had left something out, it was actually an alignment test for me. I like asking sneaky questions to see what happens. I already said that the worst part about Az's claim is that he just spilled his guts and was completely open about things he shouldn't be. I also find scum tend to be rigid with their claims because of the fear of being called liars etc. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that a scum Az would concede the point to me whereas it makes perfect sense to me that a town Az would hold something back from their claim. God help me, I just think Az is town.
I am 100% confident that if Az had come back and said "um ,no actually I didn't lie and that's everything," you would have said "Ah ha! See! It's so Townie of him to stick with his story in the face of pressure from me intimating I know he's lying!"
Clearly I am convincing literally no one so I guess I'll have to see what comes of this. Either I am right or I am not, and I don't like wasting my time so I presented my best case, we will see who was right on the flip. See you guys day 2.
chris... you presented your best case on whom exactly? i didn't really get the sense you were pushing any suspects during this period, rather just defending az.
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i missed commenting on the axelrod quote but I felt like that was an astute observation.
fwiw i know i was spoiled by virtue of having seen his flip but az's role seemed obviously fake to me. like it was two real roles and a fake one slapped in there. guess which one is the fake one.
[vaimes stuff]
1) Failing to call out other people out mid-defense is hardly scummy.
2) You just plain missed where I called out multiple people in that wall, but rushed to make a negative, dismissive post against me anyways. Definitely fairly judging this wagon, definitely no agenda here.
vote Vaimes. You wanted me to counter-wagon, right?
this (and there's a series of posts after it) with az/vaimes is really weird. not sure... what to make of it. This whole page has a bunch of people trying to move off of az, this being the first, with az jumping to... vaimes. for some reason. obviously i have a feeling that this could be a safe hop onto a buddy who isn't going to just obliterate az in response or i wouldn't be mentioning it, but that goes so counter to my previous feeling on vaimes that i don't feel good about it. idk.
@Shadow: There are better d1 lynches I think. Az, when town, is a force to be reckoned with. If he's scum, that'll show itself eventually.
Perhaps Last would be a good idea? I haven't seen townLast yet and he's been here long enough for that to have manifested already. I've always been able to spot town!last just from his playing the game normally.
Actually, in order I'd like to lynch Shadow, Last, either Axel or Cantrip depending on who the more likely scum /barner is, And then perhaps one of KCC or Grape as I'm kinda null on them in a way I don't really like.
Az: I'd like an opinion. Rhand/Cantrip/Axel. Of the three that /barned dk's reasoning on me, I assume you think Axel is the most likely scum out of the three?
I still haven't read much but I read enough to know that I still do not want to kill the claimed cop shot. The risk reward on this is not worth it.
Since there is obviously no interest in tom let's try this
Vote: Fuwa
surely not everybody trying to distract from the wagon is scum, town are often going to have way more doubts than scum just due to Not Knowing, but i'll go back and look at these two. worth seeing if they were doing this due to doubt or trying to exploit the confusion.
I understand the desire for the day to just be over, really I do - but this is exactly the time to get an extension. Even though it is taking FOR-EV-VER, Az is going through the whole playerbase and giving his takes. Even if you were positive he was scum (which I'm not), that's still a good thing. In my experience, later days tend to take less time anyway.
So, yeah, I know it's a drag, but it's the correct thing.
The empathy nodes in my brain were starting to make me second guess lynching Azrael, but as soon as he asked for the deadline extention that went away.
Also, today is my 5th wedding anniversary and after about two more hours I will be completely unavailable, so odds are my vote won't be moving regardless of anything that happens.
@Shadow: Per game rules, the only way to no lynch is to actually have a majority vote for it. If the deadline passes, the player with the most votes dies.
i was going to say "hey look somebody actually read the rules" but i think that's NAI.
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chris... you presented your best case on whom exactly? i didn't really get the sense you were pushing any suspects during this period, rather just defending az.
As being town. You read right.
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that's where I get off for now, more later. will have phone so ask me questions. i've read everything up to mid-pg 23 plus everything since i replaced in so i'm actually almost caught up!
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Sorry, I meant to indicate two days ago that I'd be V/LA for a day or so. I have hot water again, and it. Is. GLORIOUS. Put in a tankless, too, so no more waiting for water to warm back up between showers.
I kept up with reading, and I'm sure there are things I want to look back at and comment on/question. I started this morning around here:
Cantrip's 38... it says Cantrip agrees with shadow that it makes Vez likely town than not, but then goes on to say he thought shadow was shading Vez with the 'gross' comment. Cantrip then asks Shadow why he would "apply a descriptor that paints Vez's action in a negative light if you think he's town?" which i feel is a weird question. It's one of those questions that digs so deep it kind of surpasses the intent of the post. I never thought gross meant scummy, and shadow confirmed that. This question assumes all words with a negative connotation as being connected with scumminess (which I don't think is true). Cantrip then follows this with a question that basically amounts to "how likely do you think Vez is to be scum based on what he did". These questions feel a bit disconnected, especially since he said earlier that he agreed that Vez was likely town.I'm having trouble following the process that started in the second paragraph and ended in the last one.
Cantrip: Talk to me about 38. Please and thanks.
I tend to read a lot into language tells, and while I'm getting better at not super-tunneling for them, I still can't help when something catches my eye. I really felt like he was trying to go on record as saying that Vez was town while simultaneously casting shade on him. Questions at the end were meant to see if Shadow would easily change his opinion if given alternatives to consider. I liked his responses to those questions.
Megiddo posts are pretty mixed bag with some things I agree with and others I don't. Of specific note...
Megiddo, I would agree with you that this could be scum!Az coaching buddy!Syrenz, if not for this, this, and this. If your buddy coaches you, you don't draw a bunch of attention to it and act like you don't know what he's talking about.
Rereading that exchange, I no longer want Wisp to be considered as a vig target. I don't like some of the Az-Wisp interactions, but I really don't see Az's attack on Syrenz being w/w. That's what put me onto Az in the first place.
Tom, are you still pursuing ISO's on your other potential targets (Chris and dkings), or have you just decided Beeboy was too scummy to live?
Quick reread I still think Beeboy is more likely to be town then naught based on the way he came into the thread, he says his day 1 is weak, and I've seen his wolf game first hand, he just does not come into this game talking about the game being role madness as a wolf, nor does any wolf for that matter
Megiddo, I agree that Wisp's T/S list is scummy (but isn't from scum in this case). I also liked Axel's 1032 (and a lot of his posts since then). Your thoughts on Az voting Vaimes being an odd choice/possibly onto a buddy, but that not making any sense based on the rest of Vaimes' game.
What specifically about KCC's 1074 made you understand why people are strong townreading her?
Megiddo, I agree that Wisp's T/S list is scummy (but isn't from scum in this case). I also liked Axel's 1032 (and a lot of his posts since then). Your thoughts on Az voting Vaimes being an odd choice/possibly onto a buddy, but that not making any sense based on the rest of Vaimes' game.
What specifically about KCC's 1074 made you understand why people are strong townreading her?
that post was one of many around that time that demonstrated, with the exception of the fuwa hop-on + hop-off, that KCC was pretty steadfast about the Az wagon. The specific line "Although I now understand Az's game plan with this review" was what prompted me to quote that post. Also, people arguing against the extension (and thus trying to keep the wagon on Az) probably seem towny.
do i agree that this makes KCC town? no. but i understand why people are thinking this.
what do you think makes that T/S list from Last scummy?
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Tom looking at my reasons for defending beeboy I have decided they are not good.
I will not question a beeboy shot.
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what do you think makes that T/S list from Last scummy?
Putting Az in his own little box (but still town!) like that felt like Wisp maybe intended to label that separately but forgot, or subconsciously wanted to separate a buddy from the rest of the town. I don't actually know, but it's weird. I'm not sure what to make of him telling me that he doesn't remember why he did it, either.
I'm mildly frustrated, actually, that I'm clearing a player that I find pretty extensively questionable based on that early interaction with Syrenz, but I can't get over that gut read that Az was seriously intending to use that "why do you think I find you scummy" tactic to establish a scum read on Syrenz no matter Syrenz's response.
i'll go back and look into it and let you know. finishing my read at the moment (i'm on Today's events now)
I did see the popin, but the argument against (why not just... lurk out the rest of the day) seems more compelling to me than saying "fuwa wanted to look good by contributing before deadline" given... the contribution.
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Believe it or not, I really can formulate sentences that read logically most the time, but I did not above. Let me fix that:
I'm mildly frustrated, actually, that I'm clearing Wisp, who I find pretty extensively questionable, based on that early interaction between Az and Syrenz, but I can't get over that gut read that Az was seriously intending to use that "why do you think I find you scummy" tactic to establish a scum read on Syrenz no matter Syrenz's response.
what do you think makes that T/S list from Last scummy?
Putting Az in his own little box (but still town!) like that felt like Wisp maybe intended to label that separately but forgot, or subconsciously wanted to separate a buddy from the rest of the town. I don't actually know, but it's weird. I'm not sure what to make of him telling me that he doesn't remember why he did it, either.
I'm mildly frustrated, actually, that I'm clearing a player that I find pretty extensively questionable based on that early interaction with Syrenz, but I can't get over that gut read that Az was seriously intending to use that "why do you think I find you scummy" tactic to establish a scum read on Syrenz no matter Syrenz's response.
and seriously what the hell was up with that fuwa wagon guys. just read through that bit. that felt like a last minute scum-driven counterwagon to me.
So who are the scum driving it and who are the innocent bystanders?
re the t/s list, my turn.
I agree with you on the Az separate listing, that really stands out.
The thing that really pinged me was the "really don't wanna touch today category" with the shadow/chris pairing there. that's such an easy take for a fight. if last is scum this points to shadow/chris t/s--that's exactly the kind of interaction scum would want to just "wait and see" on since it is legitimately somewhat difficult to approach. town, I think, is more likely to try than to just write it off though.
you asked the same question as tom, which i'll answer at some point.
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Believe it or not, I really can formulate sentences that read logically most the time, but I did not above. Let me fix that:
I'm mildly frustrated, actually, that I'm clearing Wisp, who I find pretty extensively questionable, based on that early interaction between Az and Syrenz, but I can't get over that gut read that Az was seriously intending to use that "why do you think I find you scummy" tactic to establish a scum read on Syrenz no matter Syrenz's response.
despite syrenz's response, which was a bit *obvious* as you pointed out, I'm still feeling that as a coaching attempt. ignore what syrenz did with it and think about az's motivation for doing what he did.
it feels like a softball question that 1) gets syrenz talking with Az and 2) communicates that syrenz has done something scummy without actually pushing a wagon. unless az was voting syrenz at that time. let me go look... (god i am already re-reading)
ok , so he did vote syrenz. Strange actually, here's the turn of events:
69: syrenz makes a post
70: az does the *frowns* react
84: az votes syrenz note: there are no posts from either syrenz or az between 70 and 84.
149: syrenz "what are you asking"
nothing until
233/234: az ignores the previous question. from the guy he's voting.
then we get to
270/273 which are the other two posts you pointed out. Nothing from either in between.
... and the trail goes dead there because syrenz replaced out immediately after. hrm.
at the risk of trying to read too much into too litten this feels like Scum az is signaling to Scum syrenz that syrenz needs to pay attention and interact, but without actually putting any real muscle into it (thus reducing the chance that anybody else picks up that thread.
Tom looking at my reasons for defending beeboy I have decided they are not good.
I will not question a beeboy shot.
PikachuOpenMouth.jpg
I actually don’t mind the last couple posts from meg. The part of me that wants to be right on the slot says “what if he’s just WIMing enough to not get shot” but iunno.
Frankly the most suspicious thing about Meg is he sees my posts as town.
I am traumatized enough to not think that's genuine.
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... anyway i'm going to copy/paste my point from above: ignore what syrenz did with it and think about az's motivation for doing what he did.
The only motivations I can think of for Az to attack buddy!Syrenz there are that Az was either a) jumping on a buddy's post that he thought would catch flak and he wanted to get out in front of it, or b) he was trying to pick a fight with a buddy for the theatre/town pants down the road?
I can't speak for Az or hypothetical scum!Syrenz, but I don't like vague theatre when I'm scum. Also not sure that I believe Az decides to draw attention to himself/a buddy over 69. It's not the most spectacular post, but I don't think it would have garnered much notice had Az not highlighted it.
Not convinced, but maybe I'm missing whatever you're seeing. Feel free to elaborate.
i'm basically done elaborating on that point, if you don't agree you don't agree. though i'm curious if you actually read what I said, since you're kind of mischaracterizing the argument there. For example, do you really think az was "attacking" syrenz?
there's no point pushing harder on a 5-post interaction with a replaced-out person. anything else past that should really focus on Last, which is on my list to do.
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i'm basically done elaborating on that point, if you don't agree you don't agree. though i'm curious if you actually read what I said, since you're kind of mischaracterizing the argument there. For example, do you really think az was "attacking" syrenz?
I...very definitely do. I'm not sure how you don't.
I just noticed that your avatar and Chris's were apparently taken in the same room and I'm completely weirded out.
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i'm basically done elaborating on that point, if you don't agree you don't agree. though i'm curious if you actually read what I said, since you're kind of mischaracterizing the argument there. For example, do you really think az was "attacking" syrenz?
I...very definitely do. I'm not sure how you don't.
I just noticed that your avatar and Chris's were apparently taken in the same room and I'm completely weirded out.
this is where i mean we may just disagree.
but! walk me through your vision of this interaction, specifically why you would characterize it as an "attack" please
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Yeah, a quick google search of "James Spader brick wall" and "William Shatner brick wall" pointed me in the right direction. Didn't realize they were in a show together; is it good?
i'm basically done elaborating on that point, if you don't agree you don't agree. though i'm curious if you actually read what I said, since you're kind of mischaracterizing the argument there. For example, do you really think az was "attacking" syrenz?
I...very definitely do. I'm not sure how you don't.
I just noticed that your avatar and Chris's were apparently taken in the same room and I'm completely weirded out.
this is where i mean we may just disagree.
but! walk me through your vision of this interaction, specifically why you would characterize it as an "attack" please
Because it sounds hostile, implying that Syrenz needs to explain himself/his post, not to mention that it's accompanied by a vote. And the style of the attack ("tell me why you're scummy") is something that I feel more often comes from scum because it's so easy to attack any response the target gives. When Az reiterated that in 273, I really wanted to vote him for it because it didn't feel like he was just reaction testing (or he would have used Syrenz pushing back as "the reaction"), but I figured I'd give him the benefit of the doubt to see where he went with it. (Hence my 279 garbled vote and subsequent vote of Az in 280 when I realized that I wouldn't be able to see where Az went with Syrenz's response due to Syrenz replacing out.)
What do YOU think Az was doing with that initial question to Syrenz?
I already stated idk why I did it, i definitely wouldn't put my partner in his own category, as I'm quite self aware of what people pick up on in games of mafia
Tom, and Rhand were stronger leans, and then beeboy and vaimes were at top, the only reason he would be lower is maybe because I had his push on me in my mind, and it gave me more doubts then the ones above him
Chris/shadow was just something I didn't want to deal with day 1, the chances of everything just being a misunderstanding was too high, if I had had to give more thoughts in the case either of their trains built up or stayed longer, I would've
My thoughts on grape? Still not touching that slot
Some of his posts are questionable, and I would like him to take a hard stance on something, but still don't believe Azreal makes that read on a partner
So, not that any of you need to know this, but I'm currently shopping for a new mattress and it's a complete soul-sucking nightmare out there. I have spent hours upon hours for the past several days looking for reliable and unbiased information and it is hell. And going to the retail big box stores with their extremely over-priced and yet questionable quality is not much better.
I am open to suggestions from people who actually like their mattress. Am not looking for an all foam/latex construction. Would like something that will not fall apart/sag in 12 months.
This is a large part of why I am doing nothing in this game right now. Sorry for the derail.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Azreal definitely wasn't attacking me, but like if you were gunna buss a partner in a way to distance themselves, a weak push like that does nothing, and the read once he stated it made literally no sense
can we at least wait for some more content from Meg?
Is it weird to assume you have some sort of past impression of another player from a previous game? No. You saying "I can't rebut that because I have no memory of past games" seems to be implying that you think I knew that and am using that against you. Why would I know that about you?
If you wanna vote me then do it. Put your money where your mouth is. Put your fake read under a magnefying glass.
beeboy's 65 is really kinda hedgy for what it's doing.
His 66 feels pure though. The idea that "this is how I would respond as scum, and this is exactly what he's doing" is one that I could see town!Beeboy looking for in others and jumping on.
Vezok's 76 seems to be voting KCC for not elaborating on what her role was in another game? I can't tell if I'm reading that right?
Grape's 81 sticks out a bit because it starts by questioning the shadow town reads then follows it up by saying he's not trying to read shadow right now.
I kind of like Shadow's vote on Grape in 83. It specifically goes contrary to the accusations of reasonableness that Grape was commenting on (blankvoting is usually unreasonable) and is slightly reballious.
Az's 91 re: Grape could be a thing, knowing Az's alignment now. Az re[resents Grape's post as pure, but that's not entirely accurate. That is to say there's no way to tell if it's thoughts he's actually having or if he's just positioning himself there. It's not definiively pure like Az is saying.
I'm not a fan of Grape's 97. That vote on Rhand is a little awkward. Also, independent of knowing that Rhand is for sure town now, I don't think his townread of shadow is a good enough reason to scumread Rhand. Rhand townreading someone early isn't scum indicative of Rhand.
Grape: How did you feel about Az's 91 when he posted it?
I'm off tomorrow though so I will be able to do more reading etc.
I didnt say it was a scum read, you said it was a scum read
I've talk about my memory in the past being a problem, so yes by the same logic, you should know this
I am happy where my vote is
Chris can live for now
vote: Killjoy
its close to 2:30 in the morning going to sleep, I've gone through killjoys, and beeboys Isos, and skimmed through Cantrip currently
to me this is a towny hop on the wagon...
and this:
is not.
also this:
is a scummy T/S list
vezok counterclaiming this early +town though since it would be risky to lock oneself into a claim that early. though, JOAT so not as +town as otherwise. (agreeing with Chris's 860 here) -- throw in the lynch wagon bit and I guess it's kind of neutral all things considered.
speaking of claims, fun fact, i didn't realize this was a speciality until yesterday.
noting this for later.
noting this as I think i saw some discussion the last couple of days about Chris being scum(?) for defending az, mentally noting that this is where that started. he went from this vote pretty quickly back to grapefruit and at neither point touches Shadow. maybe have been townreading shadow, need to confirm but either way is scum really trying to start a *fresh* wagon so close to EOD? what does that accomplish? like chris deliberately avoided the easy route of pushing the shadow wagon, which means one of a few different things but the easiest one is that he... is town right?
let me keep reading on this.
i'm up to pg 20, will keep going.
i still am liking everything i read from vaimes.
noting cantrip opening the door in 1022 to hop off of az (onto... shadow/tom/chris aka the counterwagon and some other guys)
i'm sort of skimming az's spew here. maybe i shouldn't. here's some quotes:
chris have you done this exercise again?
i was going to do the same thing so I'll just quote kcc who did it first.
noting this bc it points to some az/syrenz (who is last now right?) entanglement/coaching.
chris... you presented your best case on whom exactly? i didn't really get the sense you were pushing any suspects during this period, rather just defending az.
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fwiw i know i was spoiled by virtue of having seen his flip but az's role seemed obviously fake to me. like it was two real roles and a fake one slapped in there. guess which one is the fake one.
one more page then i'm headed out:
this (and there's a series of posts after it) with az/vaimes is really weird. not sure... what to make of it. This whole page has a bunch of people trying to move off of az, this being the first, with az jumping to... vaimes. for some reason. obviously i have a feeling that this could be a safe hop onto a buddy who isn't going to just obliterate az in response or i wouldn't be mentioning it, but that goes so counter to my previous feeling on vaimes that i don't feel good about it. idk.
post from kcc I like. I'm understanding now why people are strong townreading her.
surely not everybody trying to distract from the wagon is scum, town are often going to have way more doubts than scum just due to Not Knowing, but i'll go back and look at these two. worth seeing if they were doing this due to doubt or trying to exploit the confusion.
more of the same with these two. additional note is that shadow, directly above this chris post, is asking the room who's interested in Tom.
i was going to say "hey look somebody actually read the rules" but i think that's NAI.
As being town. You read right.
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lol fuwa wagon out of nowhere.
that's where I get off for now, more later. will have phone so ask me questions. i've read everything up to mid-pg 23 plus everything since i replaced in so i'm actually almost caught up!
I kept up with reading, and I'm sure there are things I want to look back at and comment on/question. I started this morning around here:
I tend to read a lot into language tells, and while I'm getting better at not super-tunneling for them, I still can't help when something catches my eye. I really felt like he was trying to go on record as saying that Vez was town while simultaneously casting shade on him. Questions at the end were meant to see if Shadow would easily change his opinion if given alternatives to consider. I liked his responses to those questions.
Megiddo posts are pretty mixed bag with some things I agree with and others I don't. Of specific note...
Megiddo, I would agree with you that this could be scum!Az coaching buddy!Syrenz, if not for this, this, and this. If your buddy coaches you, you don't draw a bunch of attention to it and act like you don't know what he's talking about.
Rereading that exchange, I no longer want Wisp to be considered as a vig target. I don't like some of the Az-Wisp interactions, but I really don't see Az's attack on Syrenz being w/w. That's what put me onto Az in the first place.
Tom, are you still pursuing ISO's on your other potential targets (Chris and dkings), or have you just decided Beeboy was too scummy to live?
Already better than beeboy tbh
@cantrip still going, just got busy... but my finger is a bit itchier
What specifically about KCC's 1074 made you understand why people are strong townreading her?
What compelled you to *remind* Tom who is on his target list, rather than letting him work it out?
Vote Count 2.5
tomsloger (3): Axelrod, Sir Chris, Vaimes
Killjoy (3): dkingsland967, vezokpiraka, Lastwhisper
Fuwa (2): Grapefruit21, Grapefruit21
Lastwhisper (1): Killjoy
KittyCupCake (1): Megiddo
Sir Chris (1): Cantripmancer
Abstain (4): tomsloger, Fuwa, KittyCupCake, shadowlancerx
With 14 alive, it takes 8 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Sunday, September 1st, at 11:59 PM.
do i agree that this makes KCC town? no. but i understand why people are thinking this.
what do you think makes that T/S list from Last scummy?
had to get over the massive hump of Entering A Game but bullet bitten.
and seriously what the hell was up with that fuwa wagon guys. just read through that bit. that felt like a last minute scum-driven counterwagon to me.
What scum drove it?
I will not question a beeboy shot.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
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2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Putting Az in his own little box (but still town!) like that felt like Wisp maybe intended to label that separately but forgot, or subconsciously wanted to separate a buddy from the rest of the town. I don't actually know, but it's weird. I'm not sure what to make of him telling me that he doesn't remember why he did it, either.
I'm mildly frustrated, actually, that I'm clearing a player that I find pretty extensively questionable based on that early interaction with Syrenz, but I can't get over that gut read that Az was seriously intending to use that "why do you think I find you scummy" tactic to establish a scum read on Syrenz no matter Syrenz's response.
So who are the scum driving it and who are the innocent bystanders?
i'll go back and look into it and let you know. finishing my read at the moment (i'm on Today's events now)
I did see the popin, but the argument against (why not just... lurk out the rest of the day) seems more compelling to me than saying "fuwa wanted to look good by contributing before deadline" given... the contribution.
I'm mildly frustrated, actually, that I'm clearing Wisp, who I find pretty extensively questionable, based on that early interaction between Az and Syrenz, but I can't get over that gut read that Az was seriously intending to use that "why do you think I find you scummy" tactic to establish a scum read on Syrenz no matter Syrenz's response.
I agree with you on the Az separate listing, that really stands out.
The thing that really pinged me was the "really don't wanna touch today category" with the shadow/chris pairing there. that's such an easy take for a fight. if last is scum this points to shadow/chris t/s--that's exactly the kind of interaction scum would want to just "wait and see" on since it is legitimately somewhat difficult to approach. town, I think, is more likely to try than to just write it off though.
you asked the same question as tom, which i'll answer at some point.
it feels like a softball question that 1) gets syrenz talking with Az and 2) communicates that syrenz has done something scummy without actually pushing a wagon. unless az was voting syrenz at that time. let me go look... (god i am already re-reading)
ok , so he did vote syrenz. Strange actually, here's the turn of events:
69: syrenz makes a post
70: az does the *frowns* react
84: az votes syrenz
note: there are no posts from either syrenz or az between 70 and 84.
149: syrenz "what are you asking"
nothing until
233/234: az ignores the previous question. from the guy he's voting.
then we get to
270/273 which are the other two posts you pointed out. Nothing from either in between.
... and the trail goes dead there because syrenz replaced out immediately after. hrm.
at the risk of trying to read too much into too litten this feels like Scum az is signaling to Scum syrenz that syrenz needs to pay attention and interact, but without actually putting any real muscle into it (thus reducing the chance that anybody else picks up that thread.
oh hey:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/812915-modern-mafia-day-2-blood-moon?comment=294
wink
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/812915-modern-mafia-day-2-blood-moon?comment=311
wink
... anyway i'm going to copy/paste my point from above: ignore what syrenz did with it and think about az's motivation for doing what he did.
I actually don’t mind the last couple posts from meg. The part of me that wants to be right on the slot says “what if he’s just WIMing enough to not get shot” but iunno.
I am traumatized enough to not think that's genuine.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I can't speak for Az or hypothetical scum!Syrenz, but I don't like vague theatre when I'm scum. Also not sure that I believe Az decides to draw attention to himself/a buddy over 69. It's not the most spectacular post, but I don't think it would have garnered much notice had Az not highlighted it.
Not convinced, but maybe I'm missing whatever you're seeing. Feel free to elaborate.
there's no point pushing harder on a 5-post interaction with a replaced-out person. anything else past that should really focus on Last, which is on my list to do.
I just noticed that your avatar and Chris's were apparently taken in the same room and I'm completely weirded out.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
but! walk me through your vision of this interaction, specifically why you would characterize it as an "attack" please
Because it sounds hostile, implying that Syrenz needs to explain himself/his post, not to mention that it's accompanied by a vote. And the style of the attack ("tell me why you're scummy") is something that I feel more often comes from scum because it's so easy to attack any response the target gives. When Az reiterated that in 273, I really wanted to vote him for it because it didn't feel like he was just reaction testing (or he would have used Syrenz pushing back as "the reaction"), but I figured I'd give him the benefit of the doubt to see where he went with it. (Hence my 279 garbled vote and subsequent vote of Az in 280 when I realized that I wouldn't be able to see where Az went with Syrenz's response due to Syrenz replacing out.)
What do YOU think Az was doing with that initial question to Syrenz?
Idk what the AZ push on syrenz itself says about the slot, but AZ sticking to it in order to <completely ignore last> looks w/v
I already stated idk why I did it, i definitely wouldn't put my partner in his own category, as I'm quite self aware of what people pick up on in games of mafia
Tom, and Rhand were stronger leans, and then beeboy and vaimes were at top, the only reason he would be lower is maybe because I had his push on me in my mind, and it gave me more doubts then the ones above him
Chris/shadow was just something I didn't want to deal with day 1, the chances of everything just being a misunderstanding was too high, if I had had to give more thoughts in the case either of their trains built up or stayed longer, I would've
Some of his posts are questionable, and I would like him to take a hard stance on something, but still don't believe Azreal makes that read on a partner
I am open to suggestions from people who actually like their mattress. Am not looking for an all foam/latex construction. Would like something that will not fall apart/sag in 12 months.
This is a large part of why I am doing nothing in this game right now. Sorry for the derail.
Azreal definitely wasn't attacking me, but like if you were gunna buss a partner in a way to distance themselves, a weak push like that does nothing, and the read once he stated it made literally no sense