Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm caught up; I'll try to keep this relatively short.
First off, I'm not sure that KJ's ascetic claim moves the needle much for me. I have a few reasons to think he's town (which, I swear, I'll get to, soon), and him not claiming his self-asceticism, at least, D1 isn't great. But it being another interference role when I know there's a scum delayer and I think there's a scum redirector (AND Az claimed a roleblock+rolecop as part of his JoaT AND Osie claimed one of his modes to be roleblocker) makes me wonder if Proph just put a bunch of fizzle effects in the game.
I PROMISE I'll get to why I think KJ's town soon. In the meantime, the rest of my catch-up:
There's 6 relatively universal townreads. Unless one of those 6 is scum, the game is solved. Even if I'm mislynched, the game is still probably solved within those other 4, though it's possible that there's a deepwolf...
Shadow - Probably town
Vaimes - Probably town
vezok - Probably town
Axel - Ehh, probably town
KCC - Ehh, probably town
Wisp - Ehh, probably town
Cantrip, Killjoy, Sir Chris, osieorb18, tomsloger
Why do you feel like Shadow, KCC, and Wisp are "relatively universal townreads"? Pretty sure there are multiple people at least questioning their alignment, even if they're not outright scumreading them.
Scummiest of revealed two killing roles means jack *****
Damning from a flavor perspective? What do you mean?
If there's 2 KP on town this game, then this game is firmly town-sided in design, unless scum roles are WTFOMGBBQ bonkers. I firmly don't believe that to be the case, based on what we've seen.
As for damning from a flavor perspective, it is quite possible that the flavour reflects alignment, in which case Infect explicitly as a false claim makes a lot of sense. Even if flavour does not reflect alignment, if someone can determine abilities from flavour (which is certainly possible), then it's possible that his actual flavour makes it clear that he would not be a 1-shot Day-vig. For example, if he was Jund instead of Infect, he could be a Scum Strongman with a 1-shot Dayvig.
As someone who's looked at every single claim so far to see if there are flavor elements that feel off and might be indicative of a fake deck claim, I feel like I can say pretty strongly that it wouldn't be hard to make practically any claim fit in some way into practically any deck. I mean...fakeclaiming "Jund, I'm a Doctor" probably wouldn't go over very well, but every modern deck I've looked at has a significant killing/Vig card, a significant interference/Roleblock/Protective card, a significant selective discard/Info card, etc.
When I got my result from Proph, I had a little ecstatic celebratory jig response back to Proph basically in happy disbelief that Tom lied about his deck name, because I literally could not fathom why anyone would lie about their deck name. (Actually, when I got my role initially I figured the scum were all decks that weren't really Modern decks, based on the sample role in the OP, but then I realized the sample role PM was a town role, so neither flavor-gaming that decks with banned cards were scum would work, nor would flavor-gaming that decks with OP combos would work.)
That said, that Az *did* adjust his claim, even if it wouldn't have changed my results had I targeted him, is a thing. I even specifically asked him, so...I'm still a little at a loss. I guess I would expect scum!Tom to admit to lying and give some reason (paranoia, mod-indication that it was a bad idea to give out his real deck, for a Tom!lark) to have done so. This feels so similar to his response in GoT....hmmm. Hmm. Actually, it doesn't. When I pranked Town!Tom in GoT, he immediately went into solvey overdrive, considering all the different possibilities, throwing out thoughts left and right. Here he just said "I didnt [lie] and I am [Infect]". And then in the next post voted KJ and said Osie TWTBAW. Now that I compare the two, ESPECIALLY since it had to be running through his mind that I might be trolling for reactions (or even pranking him) again, I'm really surprised that he didn't either start solving or at least give me an eye roll.
@Wisp: I'm not even asking you to prove a negative. For most of the game, you have said that you are not lynching tom. That means that you are either:
A) Town and confident that he is town, but cannot provide a concrete reason.
or
B) His scum-buddy.
Given that it appears to be the former, either there is evidence that he is in the form of townie posts and actions, or you are just wrong and he is actually scum, who you are defending.
This may be moot with what I detail above on Tom, but why are you omitting the possibility that Wisp is scum confident that Tom is town because he knows Tom is town?
This may be moot with what I detail above on Tom, but why are you omitting the possibility that Wisp is scum confident that Tom is town because he knows Tom is town?
I didn't think it was a likely world; Wisp is townier than tom.
I didn't think it was a likely world; Wisp is townier than tom.
Sorry, townier than "tom's fake persona". Gotta keep tom away from responsibility for his own play.
I feel like you're being bitterer than you need to be here. I've never felt like Tom's flavorplay/gimmicking has made his actual play fake, nor do I think he doesn't take responsibility for his play.
If your next post isnt explaining why you think KJ is town I may lose my *****.
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I have a couple of reasons that I don't just want to toss out there, Chris. I need to do some diving to see if those are really supported the way I think they are. I apologize for being a slacker and not doing it already.
I didn't think it was a likely world; Wisp is townier than tom.
Sorry, townier than "tom's fake persona". Gotta keep tom away from responsibility for his own play.
I feel like you're being bitterer than you need to be here. I've never felt like Tom's flavorplay/gimmicking has made his actual play fake, nor do I think he doesn't take responsibility for his play.
This isn't the only time he's pulled the "I use a fake persona, so you're not really reading me" card. And it pretty much excuses acting trolly more than anything else. Bitter? Maybe a little. Ready to lynch that sliminess on sight? Absolutely.
Well if I have glanced right it is 4-4 so if you have some epic argument for KJ I am keenly interested in understanding it.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm going to try and formulate some more coherent thoughts, but seems like his interactions with both the deceased scum are questionable, he killed DK way too fast, and he either lied about his Deck (therefore scum) or Cantrip was re-directed, which they would also do if he's scum.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
In fairness Tom being scum shooting the literal backup would fit into the scum team's play of "suck."
Although shooting dkings 'fast' seems revisionist to me. He took his sweet ass time shooting that day.
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In fairness Tom being scum shooting the literal backup would fit into the scum team's play of "suck."
Although shooting dkings 'fast' seems revisionist to me. He took his sweet ass time shooting that day.
Maybe you are not remembering, but after taking so long to come to the conclusion that it was Megs, and then getting almost universally vetoed from taking that shot after Megs claim, he had DK claim and then almost immediately shot him, despite the fact that DK had said he didn't have time to respond but would be back later.
You are really getting hung up on the whole "back-up" claim thing. Scum priority is hitting a Townie if they can get away with it. Period. Role is virtually irrelevant. Trying to take down a power role especially is just wishful thinking. You will almost certainly get vetoed just like Megs got vetoed.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I admit that I am not as strong on this point as I should be because frankly the scum team's methods have perplexed me to this point, and Tom's 4d chess of shooting the backup seems incredibly strange given it is a power ball game so he is always going to shoot power there if he shoots at all but fine.
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I'm going to try and formulate some more coherent thoughts, but seems like his interactions with both the deceased scum are questionable, he killed DK way too fast, and he either lied about his Deck (therefore scum) or Cantrip was re-directed, which they would also do if he's scum.
Is there any reason for Cantrip to not claim the deck information he got, and for the person with that deck name to claim it’s theirs? Since it’s overwhelmingly likely he was redirected to a villager?
Is there any reason for Cantrip to not claim the deck information he got, and for the person with that deck name to claim it’s theirs? Since it’s overwhelmingly likely he was redirected to a villager?
Not that I can think of, that's why I asked for that earlier
I feel like we are making this about Tom, but I guess that's fair given that Cantrip is also claiming a vig, but I think they are different in terms of overall strength
I really dislike all this mod gaming we are doing... Meh
Sure on reread I may have exaggerating Tom's towniness just a little, but I really don't think he's done anything wolfy
@axelrod
What are these associations that make Tom look bad in terms of Grape/Azreal?
I feel like I'm at the point where there is no benefit to me going against the tom Lynch lmao, so if we do Lynch him, itsw/e but I still have my doubts
I really dislike all this mod gaming we are doing... Meh
It's not just the role dichotomy though, there's the awful choice of target, the timing of it, and now evidence that he may have false claimed, with not much suggesting he is town
Meh you do have a point, idk.... *Cries*
Such a poor setup if a wolf day vig has to out himself against a town vig, which I guess we already saw once, but w/e I guess
kcc: I didn't consider cantrip, no. I was more concerned with not stopping protectives. I was willing to target Grape just to make sure that coroner shot went though because that was all benefit. And Grape was very unlikely to be protected anyway, but very likely to be blocked.
Also my experiance with Ascetic isn't one that says d1 claims are necessary. I don't recall anyone else claiming D1 ever, and I was never Ascetic before. The only role that claims D1 is Miller. I actually don't even remember LAst getting flak for not claiming in GoT.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Also my experiance with Ascetic isn't one that says d1 claims are necessary. I don't recall anyone else claiming D1 ever, and I was never Ascetic before.
Also my experiance with Ascetic isn't one that says d1 claims are necessary. I don't recall anyone else claiming D1 ever, and I was never Ascetic before.
And how about after we saw multiple JoaT claims, any concerns that maybe you should warn people?
I'm back, work is slow, and it's time to catch up.
I think Chris and KCC are both town. That fight over Beeboy would have had some sort of pivot if one of them was scum.
I don't get the Az wagon. Cantrips pretty much seems to be a direct response to 522 I guess? I don't know what Shadow and KCC are voting him for. Does 564 have a typo or am I dumb? LW's is downright scummy.
Anyway can we go back to tom? I think I feel better about him being scum than Shadow here. I doubt they're buddies (they wouldn't throw so much heft behind Beeboy together as buddies) but I think that there was scum on that wagon. And it probably isn't Rhand or KCC. Vote: Tom
The lack of interest in tom is depressing. His catch up was not great to say the least. I think he's the best option today.
Grape was trying pretty hard to push Tom as a counterwagon to Az. Does grape try bussing an extra kill? That seems... awful, but not the same kind of awful we've seen, just completely senseless and absurd.
Hey KCC, can you remind me how Grapefruit treated KJ? My memory is fading in my old age.
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Also my experiance with Ascetic isn't one that says d1 claims are necessary. I don't recall anyone else claiming D1 ever, and I was never Ascetic before.
And how about after we saw multiple JoaT claims, any concerns that maybe you should warn people?
No. I actually keep forgetting the passive part of my ability. I've been really focused on the active part, and how best to use that.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Lol ascetic not being "boggles" if true
Bleck.
First off, I'm not sure that KJ's ascetic claim moves the needle much for me. I have a few reasons to think he's town (which, I swear, I'll get to, soon), and him not claiming his self-asceticism, at least, D1 isn't great. But it being another interference role when I know there's a scum delayer and I think there's a scum redirector (AND Az claimed a roleblock+rolecop as part of his JoaT AND Osie claimed one of his modes to be roleblocker) makes me wonder if Proph just put a bunch of fizzle effects in the game.
I PROMISE I'll get to why I think KJ's town soon. In the meantime, the rest of my catch-up:
Why do you feel like Shadow, KCC, and Wisp are "relatively universal townreads"? Pretty sure there are multiple people at least questioning their alignment, even if they're not outright scumreading them.
As someone who's looked at every single claim so far to see if there are flavor elements that feel off and might be indicative of a fake deck claim, I feel like I can say pretty strongly that it wouldn't be hard to make practically any claim fit in some way into practically any deck. I mean...fakeclaiming "Jund, I'm a Doctor" probably wouldn't go over very well, but every modern deck I've looked at has a significant killing/Vig card, a significant interference/Roleblock/Protective card, a significant selective discard/Info card, etc.
When I got my result from Proph, I had a little ecstatic celebratory jig response back to Proph basically in happy disbelief that Tom lied about his deck name, because I literally could not fathom why anyone would lie about their deck name. (Actually, when I got my role initially I figured the scum were all decks that weren't really Modern decks, based on the sample role in the OP, but then I realized the sample role PM was a town role, so neither flavor-gaming that decks with banned cards were scum would work, nor would flavor-gaming that decks with OP combos would work.)
That said, that Az *did* adjust his claim, even if it wouldn't have changed my results had I targeted him, is a thing. I even specifically asked him, so...I'm still a little at a loss. I guess I would expect scum!Tom to admit to lying and give some reason (paranoia, mod-indication that it was a bad idea to give out his real deck, for a Tom!lark) to have done so. This feels so similar to his response in GoT....hmmm. Hmm. Actually, it doesn't. When I pranked Town!Tom in GoT, he immediately went into solvey overdrive, considering all the different possibilities, throwing out thoughts left and right. Here he just said "I didnt [lie] and I am [Infect]". And then in the next post voted KJ and said Osie TWTBAW. Now that I compare the two, ESPECIALLY since it had to be running through his mind that I might be trolling for reactions (or even pranking him) again, I'm really surprised that he didn't either start solving or at least give me an eye roll.
Tom, why such a difference from GoT?
This may be moot with what I detail above on Tom, but why are you omitting the possibility that Wisp is scum confident that Tom is town because he knows Tom is town?
For reasons that should be obvious, I'm not answering this yet.
Vote Tom
I'll wait for this, because I'm considering moving my vote there
I didn't think it was a likely world; Wisp is townier than tom.
Hmm...
Vote Tom
Sorry, townier than "tom's fake persona". Gotta keep tom away from responsibility for his own play.
Vote Tom
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Sorry, couldn't resist.
I have a couple of reasons that I don't just want to toss out there, Chris. I need to do some diving to see if those are really supported the way I think they are. I apologize for being a slacker and not doing it already.
This isn't the only time he's pulled the "I use a fake persona, so you're not really reading me" card. And it pretty much excuses acting trolly more than anything else. Bitter? Maybe a little. Ready to lynch that sliminess on sight? Absolutely.
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I'm more likely to vote Tom than KJ right now anyway
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They both have like a 2/3 chance of being scum
tomsloger (4): Vaimes, Killjoy, osieorb18, Cantripmancer
Killjoy (3): tomsloger, Sir Chris, vezokpiraka
osieorb18 (2): Axelrod, KittyCupCake
Lastwhisper (1): shadowlancerx
Abstain (1): Lastwhisper
Although shooting dkings 'fast' seems revisionist to me. He took his sweet ass time shooting that day.
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He clearly meant from the time he said dk claim, to the time he pulled the trigger
You are really getting hung up on the whole "back-up" claim thing. Scum priority is hitting a Townie if they can get away with it. Period. Role is virtually irrelevant. Trying to take down a power role especially is just wishful thinking. You will almost certainly get vetoed just like Megs got vetoed.
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This is me reading into Osie trying to policy lynch Tom. Osie, if I’m wrong, expain for me why?
tom is best lunch.
Someone might have mentioned that and I skipped over it.
But then that makes this whole Day weird because it feels like everyone is really hesitant about killing tom.
He wasn't told anything but, the person he targeted doesn't have the infect deck, so he didn't guess right...
Not that I can think of, that's why I asked for that earlier
jk
There's not much else for Cantrip to claim in terms of information
So everyone full claiming their deck flavor won't do much
I really dislike all this mod gaming we are doing... Meh
Sure on reread I may have exaggerating Tom's towniness just a little, but I really don't think he's done anything wolfy
@axelrod
What are these associations that make Tom look bad in terms of Grape/Azreal?
It's not just the role dichotomy though, there's the awful choice of target, the timing of it, and now evidence that he may have false claimed, with not much suggesting he is town
Such a poor setup if a wolf day vig has to out himself against a town vig, which I guess we already saw once, but w/e I guess
Also my experiance with Ascetic isn't one that says d1 claims are necessary. I don't recall anyone else claiming D1 ever, and I was never Ascetic before. The only role that claims D1 is Miller. I actually don't even remember LAst getting flak for not claiming in GoT.
Manasi was an Ascetic here during the team games and I think got a lot of flack for claiming Ascetic late game.
Grape was trying pretty hard to push Tom as a counterwagon to Az. Does grape try bussing an extra kill? That seems... awful, but not the same kind of awful we've seen, just completely senseless and absurd.
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