Osie, man, what are you doing? You don't need 50,000 posts to say what you are saying. I'm having a hard enough time maintaining energy for this game as it is without having to wade through all that.
It's fine if you want to lynch Tom. There are reasons to lynch Tom. But you're going way over the top.
Scummiest of revealed two killing roles means jack *****
Damning from a flavor perspective? What do you mean?
If there's 2 KP on town this game, then this game is firmly town-sided in design, unless scum roles are WTFOMGBBQ bonkers. I firmly don't believe that to be the case, based on what we've seen.
As for damning from a flavor perspective, it is quite possible that the flavour reflects alignment, in which case Infect explicitly as a false claim makes a lot of sense. Even if flavour does not reflect alignment, if someone can determine abilities from flavour (which is certainly possible), then it's possible that his actual flavour makes it clear that he would not be a 1-shot Day-vig. For example, if he was Jund instead of Infect, he could be a Scum Strongman with a 1-shot Dayvig.
And these are not actually the most compelling arguments. It's been pointed out that a 1-shot day-vig + whatever Cantrip is but sounds like maybe an every other night vig. is still less KP than just a single regular Vig. Tom might be scum, but the alternate is not OMGWTFBBQ.
And Tom also might have lied about being Infect. That's still the simplest explanation. The fact Az lied about his deck at least proves scum can do it - presumably Az thought there was a reason to do so (regardless of whether Proph has now claimed that Cantrip would have got a "hit" on Az no matter what type of Tron deck he was. Az presumably did not know that).
But him doing it for "Flavor" reasons doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. No deck is scummier than any other that I can tell. There was no "flavor" associated with the day-kill, as we all saw. Presumably, if he was lying, his actual deck has just as much "flavor" for being able to kill someone as Infect. The only reason for him to lie would be to protect himself against roles that care what deck you are. Period.
I'm still wary myself at the idea he could have been re-directed and not told his new target. In this specific case, given how Cantrip described his ability shot, it is possible (though still a little bastardy). Cantrip (for example) has a vig that needs to guess his target's deck to be effective. Cantrip goes "I shoot Tom and guess Infect." Cantrip is re-directed to someone else. Cantrip's results PM goes something like: "Your killed failed - Not Infect."
Several people have said they have no issues with Cantrip being re-directed anonymously. Not all those people are scum. So there's a genuine disagreement as to what's reasonable for a mod. to do or not do. I think it would be bad - I think the results PM ought to say who is not Infect, or at the very least say "You have been re-directed, and your killed failed - Not Infect". And not imply that his target was the one he picked when it was not. But that's me.
But you know, even if Cantrip was re-directed and Tom wasn't lying. It doesn't clear Tom. Scum could have been trying to save Tom from Cantrip. That's like a very simple explanation. It's not 100%, because if scum have a re-direct there's a strong possibility they want to co-opt a vig. shot no matter where they think it *might* be headed.
Ugh. I just don't have the energy to -re-read and decide who's the "best" option for today. Not right now. Maybe later.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Who else has a strong mechnical reason to be a wolf???
Osie.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Osie: when was the last time you went this hard in on a scum read?
Also, regardless of that read, saying Tom is “outed scum” is ridiculous. Yeah, sure, maybe he lied about his role, but that’s not absolutely true, stop acting like it is.
I haven't tunneled like this in quite a while (to be fair, I haven't played much mafia in quite a while), but I am pretty firmly convinced on this front. There's a number of decent elements going against tom, and nothing particularly going for him that I've seen.
(There's also probably some small part of me that kinda feels like tom's intentionally neutral (and often intentionally abrasive) playstyle never deserves to not get lynched if there's even a small sign that he's actually scummy, because there should be consequences for regularly trying not to appear town.)
@osie
ya I forgot this site likes to buss rather than try to defend their partners
Im still having a hard time understanding you putting Axel as an "ehh, possible town" read
I cant see how you dont have Cantrip as like one of your highest town reads, it still feels like fake paranoia
I put the mechanical likeliness of one of tom and Cantrip being scum a little higher than most. I also firmly believe that Cantrip is skilled enough as a wolf to be scum here.
Axel I'm mostly just tinfoiling. I'm townreading him more than most (if not all) of my probably town on behavior, but there's some potential for Axel worlds.
oh now i get it
Tryna chain lynch me and cantrip
Nope. Because Cantrip has much lower scum equity than you do.
and when i flip town?
Cmon you know what chain lynching means dont play dumb
(There's also probably some small part of me that kinda feels like tom's intentionally neutral (and often intentionally abrasive) playstyle never deserves to not get lynched if there's even a small sign that he's actually scummy, because there should be consequences for regularly trying not to appear town.)
ftr, this is a really poor understanding of how and why i play
Im not "intentionally neutral"
Its just all performance art so its fake regardless
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Osie: Why do you think I'm scum? You don't actually seem to. Explain plz.
I think you have had bad relations to both Az and Grape. Your posts have been superficial, as I talked about earlier, and when called out, instead of rallying up, you haven't provided anything else. The surface-level focus of your selective larger content posts on top of a much larger number of easy questions and lack of reasoning worked out is not a good look. When you combine it all, you're particularly scummy.
(There's also probably some small part of me that kinda feels like tom's intentionally neutral (and often intentionally abrasive) playstyle never deserves to not get lynched if there's even a small sign that he's actually scummy, because there should be consequences for regularly trying not to appear town.)
ftr, this is a really poor understanding of how and why i play
Im not "intentionally neutral"
Its just all performance art so its fake regardless
@osie
ya I forgot this site likes to buss rather than try to defend their partners
Im still having a hard time understanding you putting Axel as an "ehh, possible town" read
I cant see how you dont have Cantrip as like one of your highest town reads, it still feels like fake paranoia
I put the mechanical likeliness of one of tom and Cantrip being scum a little higher than most. I also firmly believe that Cantrip is skilled enough as a wolf to be scum here.
Axel I'm mostly just tinfoiling. I'm townreading him more than most (if not all) of my probably town on behavior, but there's some potential for Axel worlds.
oh now i get it
Tryna chain lynch me and cantrip
Nope. Because Cantrip has much lower scum equity than you do.
and when i flip town?
Cmon you know what chain lynching means dont play dumb
Barring new discoveries, I have no interest in a Cantrip lynch until after you, KJ, Chris, and possibly some others.
I'm Bant Spirits. Are cards ok to claim? I forget.
Anyway, I'm Ascetic, and I have the once per game ability to make someone else Ascetic. I haven't used it. Haven't found a good target yet. I'm not sure they're is a de facto good target for it actually. Hitting town prevents doctor shots and hitting scum prevents investigative.
I was going to use it on Grape to let him do that coroner thing but then we lynched him . I figured the benefit to town was decent and Grape probably wasn't gonna be a doc target.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Either KJ's claim is fake, the Redirector doesn't exist, and/or in the extremely unlikely case that it does exist, it's probably town or one of Azrael's abilities.
I'm Bant Spirits. Are cards ok to claim? I forget.
Anyway, I'm Ascetic, and I have the once per game ability to make someone else Ascetic. I haven't used it. Haven't found a good target yet. I'm not sure they're is a de facto good target for it actually. Hitting town prevents doctor shots and hitting scum prevents investigative.
I was going to use it on Grape to let him do that coroner thing but then we lynched him . I figured the benefit to town was decent and Grape probably wasn't gonna be a doc target.
Sounds very similar to megs role. Would it make more sense for them to be mirrored town-scum roles or simply two town who can together make an ascetic bulletproof?
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[quote from="Killjoy »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/812915-modern-mafia-day-3-thought-hemorrhage?comment=2724"]Tom you could have shot several people with more scum equity than dk. I do believe that's the point. [/quote
I'm Bant Spirits. Are cards ok to claim? I forget.
Anyway, I'm Ascetic, and I have the once per game ability to make someone else Ascetic. I haven't used it. Haven't found a good target yet. I'm not sure they're is a de facto good target for it actually. Hitting town prevents doctor shots and hitting scum prevents investigative.
I was going to use it on Grape to let him do that coroner thing but then we lynched him . I figured the benefit to town was decent and Grape probably wasn't gonna be a doc target.
Sounds very similar to megs role. Would it make more sense for them to be mirrored town-scum roles or simply two town who can together make an ascetic bulletproof?
Asceticiser has more scum utility than town utility, mostly for partial strongmanning.
God kj/osi team must have been laughing at me so hard d2 ****
1. I replaced in after your fake persona's shot.
2. I'm going with your fake persona laughing with KJ and Grape about getting away with killing a townie.
God kj/osi team must have been laughing at me so hard d2 ****
1. I replaced in after your fake persona's shot.
2. I'm going with your fake persona laughing with KJ and Grape about getting away with killing a townie.
sure fine yall didnt laugh about it til deciding to push me for it today
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I have the once per game ability to make someone else Ascetic. I haven't used it. Haven't found a good target yet. I'm not sure they're is a de facto good target for it actually.
Did you at all consider Cantrip? Claimed vigs are kinda a magnet for scum interference
It's fine if you want to lynch Tom. There are reasons to lynch Tom. But you're going way over the top. And these are not actually the most compelling arguments. It's been pointed out that a 1-shot day-vig + whatever Cantrip is but sounds like maybe an every other night vig. is still less KP than just a single regular Vig. Tom might be scum, but the alternate is not OMGWTFBBQ.
And Tom also might have lied about being Infect. That's still the simplest explanation. The fact Az lied about his deck at least proves scum can do it - presumably Az thought there was a reason to do so (regardless of whether Proph has now claimed that Cantrip would have got a "hit" on Az no matter what type of Tron deck he was. Az presumably did not know that).
But him doing it for "Flavor" reasons doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. No deck is scummier than any other that I can tell. There was no "flavor" associated with the day-kill, as we all saw. Presumably, if he was lying, his actual deck has just as much "flavor" for being able to kill someone as Infect. The only reason for him to lie would be to protect himself against roles that care what deck you are. Period.
I'm still wary myself at the idea he could have been re-directed and not told his new target. In this specific case, given how Cantrip described his ability shot, it is possible (though still a little bastardy). Cantrip (for example) has a vig that needs to guess his target's deck to be effective. Cantrip goes "I shoot Tom and guess Infect." Cantrip is re-directed to someone else. Cantrip's results PM goes something like: "Your killed failed - Not Infect."
Several people have said they have no issues with Cantrip being re-directed anonymously. Not all those people are scum. So there's a genuine disagreement as to what's reasonable for a mod. to do or not do. I think it would be bad - I think the results PM ought to say who is not Infect, or at the very least say "You have been re-directed, and your killed failed - Not Infect". And not imply that his target was the one he picked when it was not. But that's me.
But you know, even if Cantrip was re-directed and Tom wasn't lying. It doesn't clear Tom. Scum could have been trying to save Tom from Cantrip. That's like a very simple explanation. It's not 100%, because if scum have a re-direct there's a strong possibility they want to co-opt a vig. shot no matter where they think it *might* be headed.
Ugh. I just don't have the energy to -re-read and decide who's the "best" option for today. Not right now. Maybe later.
I definitely want to lynch one of the two players with strong mechanical reasons to be scum. Unfortunately, I don't think they're both scum together.
In the meantime, I'm up for seeing a KJ claim.
I haven't tunneled like this in quite a while (to be fair, I haven't played much mafia in quite a while), but I am pretty firmly convinced on this front. There's a number of decent elements going against tom, and nothing particularly going for him that I've seen.
(There's also probably some small part of me that kinda feels like tom's intentionally neutral (and often intentionally abrasive) playstyle never deserves to not get lynched if there's even a small sign that he's actually scummy, because there should be consequences for regularly trying not to appear town.)
Cmon you know what chain lynching means dont play dumb
Problem solved.
Kj>osi>>chris, then look at last/kcc/vaimes i guess if that doesnt do it
But, like, it probably does
If i gotta get lynched in there too, so be it. I think we got 3 mislynches available so if it is 2 scum in those 3 were ok.
Im not "intentionally neutral"
Its just all performance art so its fake regardless
Which is probably something tom should've done.
I also could have shot grape btw
Or osi/chris
I did almost shoot megs...
I think you have had bad relations to both Az and Grape. Your posts have been superficial, as I talked about earlier, and when called out, instead of rallying up, you haven't provided anything else. The surface-level focus of your selective larger content posts on top of a much larger number of easy questions and lack of reasoning worked out is not a good look. When you combine it all, you're particularly scummy.
This is not a step up.
Barring new discoveries, I have no interest in a Cantrip lynch until after you, KJ, Chris, and possibly some others.
Anyway, I'm Ascetic, and I have the once per game ability to make someone else Ascetic. I haven't used it. Haven't found a good target yet. I'm not sure they're is a de facto good target for it actually. Hitting town prevents doctor shots and hitting scum prevents investigative.
I was going to use it on Grape to let him do that coroner thing but then we lynched him . I figured the benefit to town was decent and Grape probably wasn't gonna be a doc target.
I'm betting that this is likely a lie.
No way that's all scum.
Sounds very similar to megs role. Would it make more sense for them to be mirrored town-scum roles or simply two town who can together make an ascetic bulletproof?
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Maybe his fake persona felt like hitting town.
Asceticiser has more scum utility than town utility, mostly for partial strongmanning.
I narrowed it to my top 3 scumreads from d1 so i only considered dkings/chris/megs, not grape or kj
1. I replaced in after your fake persona's shot.
2. I'm going with your fake persona laughing with KJ and Grape about getting away with killing a townie.
Since it’s obviously an antitown role.
Meh.
He probably is ascetic one way or another. Which fits a scumteam dealing with multiple vigs/etc
Are Ascetics immune to vig shots but not the scum kill?
It doesn't dodge vigs at all.
tom out here messing with me.
Did you at all consider Cantrip? Claimed vigs are kinda a magnet for scum interference
Killjoy, why didn't you claim? You definitely have enough experience to know you should have
Ascetics only block non-killing actions.
Vote Count 3.3
Killjoy (4): tomsloger, Sir Chris, vezokpiraka, osieorb18
tomsloger (2): Vaimes, Killjoy
osieorb18 (2): Axelrod, KittyCupCake
Lastwhisper (1): shadowlancerx
Abstain (2): Cantripmancer, Lastwhisper
With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.
Day 3 will end at 11:59PM EST, Wednesday, September 18th. Here is the deadline.
/s
meh, not using just feels bad play if hes town, wtf is this game
also yikes, @Tom
How is not using it bad play?