I'm not ignoring Shadow, I'm just not interested in voting him yet. His vote was bad too, as were most of them (rhand and tom) but axel's was the worst. Why do you think he's town?
I agree with his #189 posts about KJ. I'm not a fan of unvote if you don't have a new direction though. Especially when you think your vote is already on scum.
I also like his later responses to Shadow, since I think the same way. What do you think of his explanation for the vote on and unvote on KJ?
So you like his points that amounted to "Yes it was weak but it was worth it to run him up and see what happened because his promise to come back and reply was scummy" but you're also at an 8.5 on KJ being scum? And you're uncomfortable with the unvote? Feels strange that your main point of agreement is him saying the reasons for voting KJ are pretty weak.
Vote: Fuwa
@Shadow I can't argue with that specific semantic argument.
Ok, people keep getting on me about how I didn't vote at the end of that post, but again, I had three people in the same boat, and two that I will basically just sort out later (tom and shadow in case that isn't clear). Rhand still hadn't posted enough for me to compare to his process, Cantrip I wasn't sure about, and Axel was probably the worst of them, but I felt like I wanted to poke a bit more before I came to a conclusion. The other option was to just randomly pick one and vote there but that was just never gonna happen.
@Vaimes Ok time for your "who isn't scumreading me" list.
You: This could be genuine I guess, but it kinda feels more like you're... dismissing my wagon than just deciding not to join it. I actually don't like that.
Grape: IDK about Grape. He defended the hell out of me in DitF so that's not completely out of character for him... But at the same time how the hell is he so confident I'm town? If It's so obvious to him I would assume it would also be obvious to other players as well but people mostly have the opposite opinion so Grape going so hard against the grain here is either a miricle read or pocketing. I can't tell.
Az: If anyone will see town me, it's Az. He has before. I wanna say... Zero Escape? That said, nothnig Az says is genuine. That's NAI because that's just Az. So, whether or not he actually believes I'm town or not is a coin flip.
Chris hasn't posted yet, has he?
KCC and Syrenze seem genuinely uninterested in my wagon. For KCC it was concious I think, Syrenze might be ignoring it. Syrenze might not be town in that case.
@KJ:
Grape: he’s asking questions. I think he decided not to try and pull games as town anymore.
Azrael: yes I have played with him before. I still think that read was waaaay to deep to get from one post, and that he started looking for reasons when Shadow asked him why he townread Grape.
Axel: Grape’s reasoning why Axel’s vote is bad is decent. You, however, call his vote just as bad as mine here, which is very, very different. Anyways, I did like his sheeping yes. It was a vote worth sheeping.
Fuwa: Look at her second post and her comment to Shadow. I think she was just having RVS fun, which means nothing.
Vezok: I am convinced scum would not use this wording “I will vote players if they are close to being lynched even if I believe they are town.” You can get the same thing said without literally saying that you’re going to be anti town.
KCC: see my recent post about her
You: See recent question
Beeboy: see 101. I didn’t explain why at first because I wanted to be sure it wasn’t newbieness I was looking at.
Hm. I'm leaning toward liking these responses.
Answer me this: Aside from throwing your vote at me, how are you looking for scum this game?
I think I'm a little offended that you don't think I'm ballsy as scum. FTR, I just finished a game on MAL where I was scum in a PoE of 3-4 VT claims and I chose to keep shooting into the PoE. It ended poorly for me, of course, but that just makes me foolish, not not-ballsy.
Well, I'm sorry for offending you... but if I were to assume you were ballsy scum following your buddy, you'd either have to be scum with dk or Rhand... I do believe Axel would be cautious. I haven't played with him much but his mind seems to lean toward order instead of chaos.
Quote from Cantrip »
Good catch? I was ok with this response all the way up to that point, but when you posted it, I felt like you were more or less hitting Vaimes on the nose with the question. It felt pretty obvious. So why was it a "good catch"?
I didn't feel it was so obvious.
]Why test for a reaction then spell out the behavior you would expect from one alignment or the other before Rhand has a chance to respond?
Rhand doesn't know specifically what I look for. All he knows is "i know his process". He can react how he wants to that. If he's faking it would probably be obvious. Cantrip: In a world where I'm town and right about the number of scum on my wagon... who is it and why? Do you agree with my townread of dk?
So, for reference:
[quote=Axelrod on Townie Killjoy in Zero Escape Mafia]I would have to say that overall this post is okay. What bothers me most about it is how long it is when so much of what you are quoting is, in your own words, NAI. It has the feel of one who feels obligated to comment on everything that someone else has posted, whether or not those posts were worthy of comment, and that feels slightly scummy. Like, scum who had given themselves this assignment might feel like they had to do it this way lest they be accused of not being thorough or complete. Whereas I feel like Town would be more likely to just cut to the relevant parts.
If I squint I feel like I'm seeing a little of this here, with Killjoy's effort to comment on everyone who was on his wagon, regardless of how much comment was merited, and ultimately making a bunch of NAI points. And his #177 response to Rhand is like something else he did that game.
In point of fact, it appears the main reason I got on him in that other game was role/claim-related, but his "style" just didn't help.
So, meh. The most suspicious thing now might be making that post and not ending with a vote for who you thought was scummiest. That's a fairly minor niggle for me.
Hm. This feels natural. Also it doesn't make sense to back off now. There's still quite a bit of enthusiasm for my wagon (in point of fact it's only been getting stronger) so backing off now is... Why? What is scum!Axel doing here?
In case it's not clear... I'm townleaning Axel for this post.
KJ, why did you feel the need to make post 58 when two players had posted within the previous half hour, and only a few hours had passed since the posts before those?
The game was moving slowly. 58 posts in like a day and a half isn't a lot.
I don’t think it’s obvious at all. It’s certainly possible, and it’s even probable that there is scum somewhere on that wagon, but I really don’t think it’s wise for you to get caught on this point.
What do you mean?
Fuwa I mean innocnet like... not like alignment based, like imagine a girl and her dad, and the principle is saying she was caught making out in the broom closet. Dad looks to her, sees big doe eyes with a "who, me?????" look.
That kind of innocent. Your tone and verbiage seem like that, and if that's not normal for you it might be forced.
And I didn't ask you because self meta isn't that useful. I wanted someone else to comment because ironically I'm more likely to get a useful answer out of someone who isn't you.
And I feel like I've covered ad nausium why I never voted.
Question: Why are you voting Grape over me? You obviously think I'm scum but would rather go off in nowheresville on a wagon no one has expressed interest in?
@KJ: you were already seriously posting for a while and had commented on Fuwa’s entry, so I don’t get why you waited that long to declare DK town for his first post.
You asked me a ton of questions. Why are you now only following up on the question about yourself?
What is your read on me?
I didn't think it before that. I did a bit of a reread at some point before I posted that and had the thought then.
IF you're referring to the big post to you and Axel, it's because I had time then.
Actually I'm leaning town on you, which again is annoying because I'm also kinda maybe on Cantrip and for sure dk and now Axel. Either I'm wrong on one of you guys or it's tom and shadow. Both are possible.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
unvote
KJ is probably just town here.
@KJ: I am townclearing some people and digging into some others to find scum.
Why do you think there have to be 2 scum on your wagon?
vote Azrael
I looked into some of his town games, and he never posts a read as deep as the one on Grape early game.
Also getting convinced tom is scum.
Feeling a tad better about KCC.
Everyone has either glossed over or ignored the other point I made against Killjoy in the post where I voted him. In 52, he uses a assertive tone toward KCC when he says "walk me through this". He wants an answer. Then, when KCC gives him one just a few posts later, he doesn't acknowledge it and just agrees with her re:Fuwa, with a "toss this out and see if it sticks" vibe.
For what it's worth, I took that question as him just not understanding my post, which seemed reasonable to me considering what I had posted.
I'm not ignoring Shadow, I'm just not interested in voting him yet. His vote was bad too, as were most of them (rhand and tom) but axel's was the worst.
So, two questions here:
(1) How exactly do you get that my vote was "the worst" out of the string of votes for Killjoy for the exact same reason? Is this purely a timing thing? It seems to me you have to do some serious mental dancing to meaningfully distinguish those votes.
(2) Regardless, I've already come out and said that I was interested in pushing that wagon primarily to see if anything would shake out and less because I actually had a strong read that Killjoy was scum. So, do you not think that's a valid strategy, or do you think I'm not telling the truth about that?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm not ignoring Shadow, I'm just not interested in voting him yet. His vote was bad too, as were most of them (rhand and tom) but axel's was the worst. Why do you think he's town?
I agree with his #189 posts about KJ. I'm not a fan of unvote if you don't have a new direction though. Especially when you think your vote is already on scum.
I also like his later responses to Shadow, since I think the same way. What do you think of his explanation for the vote on and unvote on KJ?
So you like his points that amounted to "Yes it was weak but it was worth it to run him up and see what happened because his promise to come back and reply was scummy" but you're also at an 8.5 on KJ being scum? And you're uncomfortable with the unvote? Feels strange that your main point of agreement is him saying the reasons for voting KJ are pretty weak.
Vote: Fuwa
@Shadow I can't argue with that specific semantic argument.
I'm not seeing what you're checking here, yes, I felt the post was town, because I think pushing someone for whatever reason even though weak is pretty townish, especially at early stage, him admitting it was weak was better. But I didn't like that he unvoted while thinking KJ is still scum, and having no one he's going to push. That doesn't change my read that KJ is scum. It just makes my read on Axel not as strong.
I don't understand what I'm replying to. I feel like all I did was repeating myself.
Could you perhaps rephrase that?
Fuwa I mean innocnet like... not like alignment based, like imagine a girl and her dad, and the principle is saying she was caught making out in the broom closet. Dad looks to her, sees big doe eyes with a "who, me?????" look.
That kind of innocent. Your tone and verbiage seem like that, and if that's not normal for you it might be forced.
And I didn't ask you because self meta isn't that useful. I wanted someone else to comment because ironically I'm more likely to get a useful answer out of someone who isn't you.
And I feel like I've covered ad nausium why I never voted.
Question: Why are you voting Grape over me? You obviously think I'm scum but would rather go off in nowheresville on a wagon no one has expressed interest in?
I'm not voting KJ coz I have nothing to add besides vote, may vote EoD though
Umm, I don't think anyone here have proper meta on me. That said, if what you're talking about is my tone, then it's a personal choice of mine to have a cheerful persona (everywhere). It may or may not comes natural but that's imo is NAI.
KCC and Syrenze seem genuinely uninterested in my wagon. For KCC it was concious I think, Syrenze might be ignoring it. Syrenze might not be town in that case.
unvote
KJ is probably just town here.
@KJ: I am townclearing some people and digging into some others to find scum.
Why do you think there have to be 2 scum on your wagon?
vote Azrael
I looked into some of his town games, and he never posts a read as deep as the one on Grape early game.
Also getting convinced tom is scum.
Feeling a tad better about KCC.
Wait...this doesn't make sense. You jump on the wagon to get a wagon to analyze (ok), you unvote when KJ's at claim range because your intent wasn't to wagon KJ, it was to get a wagon (ok), but then you still think he's scummy, but would rather go tilting at someone who hasn't really posted much yet? If you think KJ is scum, why wouldn't you want to try and get him back to claim range (maybe citing why you found him scummy), even if he's been discussed a lot?
Why doesn’t it make sense exactly?
We have 10 days, and while I’m in favor of serious forming up and pushing claims earlier than the last 72 hours, there’s still a lot of time for town!KJ to show through and prevent a needless claim.
Because if you think he's scum, then you should want him to get to claim range and claim, not give him more time to make better posts that fool people. Plus, especially if he's already at a high number of votes, then it's more efficient to pursue an active wagon on someone you think is scum than it is to try and start a new one.
This concern also applies to Fuwa's vote of Grape when he rates KJ so highly as scum.
Im 100% locked on cantrip town
Still lacking the tell ive been using to correctly read him, and the processy questions to rhand and shadow are just... real thoughts.
He will now fully embrace feeling pocketed by me and suspect me forever.
Wait...I have ANOTHER tell you've been using other than the used car salesman? Hmmmm. After you've caught me on it a few times, you'll have to let me in on that secret, too.
Cantrip's #38 feels like an overstretch. It's fine as it is, but seeing that he sees it as a shade, which is scummy, (though Shadow did say vez is more town for it) I'd assume he'd push for Shadow a bit more, but he did not. He unvoted for no reason either.
It's a little tell, but it was a definite possibility for me at the time. If you're going to townread someone, why go out of your way to use language that paints that person/their actions in a negative light? If Shadow had said "I don't like the excuse to be on every wagon, it avoids accountability and is often indicative of a scum mentality, but I think the way you approached it is probably town", I wouldn't have had a problem, but he used a vague, negative, smearish word instead.
My unvote was off my RVS-Fuwa vote, not unvoting Shadow. I unvoted because the time for having an RVS vote had passed.
Hmm... Cantrip didn't deny he was scum. He pretty much only ask why is that deflective. It's not big, but it's something for me. It's like saying you're scummy for drinking rotten melon. And your response wasn't that you're not scummy, or that you're not drinking rotten melon, or that the melon is not rotten but instead "how is the melon rotten?". It's just odd to me.
I can understand where you're coming from, but telling Vaimes that I'm not scum...doesn't really accomplish much. Does "I'm not scum" really convince you, ever, that someone is town? I saw an attack that didn't make sense and wanted to know how he got there. He hasn't satisfactorily communicated that, but has also made it clear that he's uninterested in explaining it. I've noted it, and I'm moving on.
Do YOU think the post he questioned was deflective?
@KJ: you were already seriously posting for a while and had commented on Fuwa’s entry, so I don’t get why you waited that long to declare DK town for his first post.
I went back and looked at the progression, and while KJ gave a read on Fuwa in 59, that was more of a response to KCC's post. 99 was the first time KJ really went "on record" in any significant way, and it's a bit of a summary. I wanted to hear his response to your question before saying this, but I don't think it's as indicative as you want it to be.
Killjoy, not quoting your large post (255) because there are some funky quote elements in there already, but a few responses:
• I wasn't seriously offended; just have a rep to defend, you know?
• I feel like anyone who read GoT and Hill House would be pretty clued in to the "Vaimes not having fun" = scum!Vaimes connection.
• As for your Rhand reaction test, maybe I'm misreading your post. This one:
@Vez: it's to do with my trying to figure out Rhand. He has a process and is line to see it in action. If he's non-existent he's very likely scum.
I took to mean that if Rhand is low-posting/low-impact, he's very likely scum. Did I misread that?
• In the world where you're town, I agree with Shadow that while it's possible there's 1-2 scum on your wagon, it's not definite, and you probably shouldn't overfocus on that at this point (but coming back to it in subsequent days with VC analysis would be good). But IF you're right, I agree that DK is unlikely to be scum, and I have a strong town read on Rhand and a lesser one on Shadow. Tom's pocket is warm and fuzzy. So PoE would be Axel, who I feel is making the "correct" posts for town, but that may actually be because he's town. (Slightly more serious answer: I'd suspect Axel, then Tom, then Shadow, but it wouldn't be a huge shock to learn that your entire wagon was town.) And as for your reasons for a townread on Axel, his post came at a time when he may have just been reading the writing on the wall and thinking your lunch wasn't going to happen/wanted to find a way to get off your wagon.
unvote
KJ is probably just town here.
@KJ: I am townclearing some people and digging into some others to find scum.
Why do you think there have to be 2 scum on your wagon?
vote Azrael
I looked into some of his town games, and he never posts a read as deep as the one on Grape early game.
Also getting convinced tom is scum.
Feeling a tad better about KCC.
Vaimes superliked this post.
That's funny, because this is the first post Rhand has made that I haven't loved. Which parts do you like/why?
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Typical scum response. Calls out several people as being possibly scum, yet votes none of them and questions people for the sake of questioning. Like what kind of question is "What else do you have opinions on?". This seems extremely forced even for Kj.
Actually that is a good point, @KJ: why no vote in that post?
Unvote cause I’m not quite ready to force a claim.
Because at current none of them are more likely scum than the others. Tom's closest because 148 but he's also Tom who would absolutely make that Post as town as well.
Who are your top picks for scum now and why?
Quote from KJ »
That leaves tom and shadow. There COULD be both scum here, as tom and shadow are both proficient and ballsy scum players who go against typcial scum tropes. But assuming that also goes against Occum's Razor since assuming that tom and shadow are both powerwolfing at this stage is not super likely. If there IS exactly 1 scum in there, tom is more likely due to 148 because it's could easily be malicious, whereras shadow hasn't done anything like that to me.
There's a pattern you are engaging in here in developing reads on people without voting. You just laid a rationale for why Tom is scum. Why are you not voting?
Quote from KJ »
KCC and Syrenze seem genuinely uninterested in my wagon. For KCC it was concious I think, Syrenze might be ignoring it. Syrenze might not be town in that case.
Quote from Syrenz #154 »
Interested in the KJ wagon, further thoughts to follow after his response.
Given that this was my last post prior to you making your post, what makes you say this?
No, you're wrong. It was bad. Is 'bad' too subjective? The wagon on me is obviously scum driven. That's why I jumped into analysis mode immediately. It's likely not dk for a few reasons, most of which have been said. But then the next three people just /barned dk. Like... come on. This is obvious. Scum latched onto town dk and is trying to push me dead.
Reads to me as more flailing and attention shifting. "People voting me are scum!" Why? Who?
So that escalated quickly... Yes KJ's reads are bad but his approach is town. This is like ditf all over. Though he definitely felt like h was building to a tom vote in 154.
So that escalated quickly... Yes KJ's reads are bad but his approach is town. This is like ditf all over. Though he definitely felt like h was building to a tom vote in 154.
Vote: Axel
Why is his approach town?
And why Axel?
His vote is in the sweet spot of opportunistic, overexplained, and easy.
As for KJ kind of everything but especially this page. He seems curious and like he's looking for answers. I loved the way he narrowed his list to take dk off in the next post after his 1-2 in x. His questions this page have generally been pointed in ways that look hunty. And he's showing zero panic despite being at roughly 7 votes 72 hours in. Yes it's early but with the history of recent wagons his chances of dying today are astronomical barring a massive turnaround and he's entirely nonplussed and continuing to solve and interact. Not a single sign of anti spew.
Hmm, I read KJ's posts as attention-shifting and panicked, contrary to hunty and nonplussed. And I read this post as ingenuine.
No but really, the way he’s sort of mindlessly pushing scumreads pings scum to me. I know tom isn’t afraid to get his hands dirty as scum, but it always always always feels forced, in a “I need results **** the process” kind of way.
Word vomit sorry.
I'm not familiar with Tom's play, but this. The way he's tossing out reads (and non-responding to questions asked) is completely scummy.
@Shadow: What puts Syrenz in the Above Neutral category rather than the Neutral/Mixed one?
Of his three posts, two of them I actually liked and I have no issues with the third. Definitely among the “please post more group” though.
Apologies. The primary difference between now and my last game 7 years ago is that this time, I've got a wife, kids, and a job. Will try to post more though - especially cuz catch up posts are way too long to make...
unvote
KJ is probably just town here.
@KJ: I am townclearing some people and digging into some others to find scum.
Why do you think there have to be 2 scum on your wagon?
vote Azrael
I looked into some of his town games, and he never posts a read as deep as the one on Grape early game.
Also getting convinced tom is scum.
Feeling a tad better about KCC.
*Squints* I don't think you're doing this on purpose, because that would be dumb, but you're wildly off-base and I thought you were more familiar with me than this. I often advocate for attempting to win the game on d1 by reading the entire town from start to finish at the same level of depth as I just did Grapefruit. On multiple occasions, I've spearheaded efforts that resulted in some pretty decisive early townie victories through using that methodology. I'd look at some of the past invitional games, I think Cyan's impossible mafia was one, where I did that not only to a single player, but most of the player-base.
Wait...this doesn't make sense. You jump on the wagon to get a wagon to analyze (ok), you unvote when KJ's at claim range because your intent wasn't to wagon KJ, it was to get a wagon (ok), but then you still think he's scummy, but would rather go tilting at someone who hasn't really posted much yet? If you think KJ is scum, why wouldn't you want to try and get him back to claim range (maybe citing why you found him scummy), even if he's been discussed a lot?
Why doesn’t it make sense exactly?
We have 10 days, and while I’m in favor of serious forming up and pushing claims earlier than the last 72 hours, there’s still a lot of time for town!KJ to show through and prevent a needless claim.
Because if you think he's scum, then you should want him to get to claim range and claim, not give him more time to make better posts that fool people. Plus, especially if he's already at a high number of votes, then it's more efficient to pursue an active wagon on someone you think is scum than it is to try and start a new one.
@shadowlancerx: I'm not reading back right now, but just how scummy do you find Killjoy at this moment?
@Cantrip: Seems like your advocating for quickly pushing those you find scummy into claims without giving said scummy individuals an opportunity to convince people otherwise. That seems like not the best strategy (unless you are like me and believe that if we all always mass claimed D1 we would win because I would be able to figure out the whole game :P.)
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
My town block is forming nicely.
@Azrael: I think it doesn’t help that all games I looked had have Iso in them.
Anyhow, do you have a scum game for me to check?
@Cantrip: Seems like your advocating for quickly pushing those you find scummy into claims without giving said scummy individuals an opportunity to convince people otherwise. That seems like not the best strategy (unless you are like me and believe that if we all always mass claimed D1 we would win because I would be able to figure out the whole game :P.)
No, I'm questioning why Shadow and Fuwa are ok leaving KJ as an almost-to-claim wagon and putting pressure elsewhere if they really think he's scum. I'm not even sure I'm articulating my whole concern here......let's see...
Ok, I know how hard it is sometimes to get someone to claim range, especially D1. It's often a process. Sometimes it's fast and furious, but usually not. KJ got to claim range (Shadow brought him back out before he could claim so he could have a chance to respond). He responded. Some players feel better about him, others still think he's scum. If Shadow and Fuwa still think he's scum, why would they try to start a counterwagon? Why not continue to apply pressure where they think scum is on an already established wagon? It just runs counter to what I would expect from a town mindset that seriously thinks KJ is scum.
In other news...
Vote ALJIOJLMRFGHFL
...is a thing I want to do, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and see where it goes.
Without doing any re-reading at all, I do not have a strong opinion on him, but he's probably in the bottom half of players. Call it "leaning slightly scum." He's done a few things that I haven't liked, but they're fairly small potatoes, and I'm not convinced it isn't just his natural style rubbing me the wrong way.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
currently at 4/2/2, hard to say if it means anything right, if killjoy is a wolf, the wolves dont need to do much of anything right now, as the train will probably just die from paranoia, but feels like this may be town based on the rapid growth of the train, since at one point it grew to 6 before dying back down
the whole pushing to claim post just feels like open wolfing tbh, from Cantrip I mean
Because if you think he's scum, then you should want him to get to claim range and claim, not give him more time to make better posts that fool people. Plus, especially if he's already at a high number of votes, then it's more efficient to pursue an active wagon on someone you think is scum than it is to try and start a new one. Like, KJ is among the people who are suspect to me for sure, but my confidence level in that is no where near the level that I want to death tunnel him and not do other things.
I do find him scummy, but I’m not anywhere close to locked in on that read; I would rather have several wagons to go back an analyze than push the claim on someone I have no real business pushing a claim on yet.
Tom feels like his open wolfing self, I like it
also I doubt he makes that 100% lock town read on Cantrip this early in the game as a wolf
I am also pretty sure he is wrong on that slot, need to dig a little deeper though
outside of my wagonomic reasons on why Killjoy is probably more likely town, someone tell me why I am wrong
Hah, well less pressure now I suppose, but there’s no point in death tunneling someone that I’m barely scum leaning when there’s so much room in the day to get other reads (and that one) to develop.
@Last: give me something to work with on that beeboy read.
I am 100% accurate when it comes to reading beeboy, his commentary so far is right up the alley of his town game, at least for now
nothing forced, just giving his thoughts
@Last: give me something to work with on that beeboy read.
I am 100% accurate when it comes to reading beeboy, his commentary so far is right up the alley of his town game, at least for now
nothing forced, just giving his thoughts
Is this like your 100% accuracy for reading Shin?
In seriousness, I really need more than that.
~~~~~
@Grapefruit: quick quick what’s at the forefront of your mind right now? What’s your current read on me?
So you like his points that amounted to "Yes it was weak but it was worth it to run him up and see what happened because his promise to come back and reply was scummy" but you're also at an 8.5 on KJ being scum? And you're uncomfortable with the unvote? Feels strange that your main point of agreement is him saying the reasons for voting KJ are pretty weak.
Vote: Fuwa
@Shadow I can't argue with that specific semantic argument.
@Vaimes Ok time for your "who isn't scumreading me" list.
You: This could be genuine I guess, but it kinda feels more like you're... dismissing my wagon than just deciding not to join it. I actually don't like that.
Grape: IDK about Grape. He defended the hell out of me in DitF so that's not completely out of character for him... But at the same time how the hell is he so confident I'm town? If It's so obvious to him I would assume it would also be obvious to other players as well but people mostly have the opposite opinion so Grape going so hard against the grain here is either a miricle read or pocketing. I can't tell.
Az: If anyone will see town me, it's Az. He has before. I wanna say... Zero Escape? That said, nothnig Az says is genuine. That's NAI because that's just Az. So, whether or not he actually believes I'm town or not is a coin flip.
Chris hasn't posted yet, has he?
KCC and Syrenze seem genuinely uninterested in my wagon. For KCC it was concious I think, Syrenze might be ignoring it. Syrenze might not be town in that case.
@Rhand
Hm. I'm leaning toward liking these responses.
Answer me this: Aside from throwing your vote at me, how are you looking for scum this game?
Hm. This feels natural. Also it doesn't make sense to back off now. There's still quite a bit of enthusiasm for my wagon (in point of fact it's only been getting stronger) so backing off now is... Why? What is scum!Axel doing here?
In case it's not clear... I'm townleaning Axel for this post.
The game was moving slowly. 58 posts in like a day and a half isn't a lot.
What do you mean?
Fuwa I mean innocnet like... not like alignment based, like imagine a girl and her dad, and the principle is saying she was caught making out in the broom closet. Dad looks to her, sees big doe eyes with a "who, me?????" look.
That kind of innocent. Your tone and verbiage seem like that, and if that's not normal for you it might be forced.
And I didn't ask you because self meta isn't that useful. I wanted someone else to comment because ironically I'm more likely to get a useful answer out of someone who isn't you.
And I feel like I've covered ad nausium why I never voted.
Question: Why are you voting Grape over me? You obviously think I'm scum but would rather go off in nowheresville on a wagon no one has expressed interest in?
I didn't think it before that. I did a bit of a reread at some point before I posted that and had the thought then.
IF you're referring to the big post to you and Axel, it's because I had time then.
Actually I'm leaning town on you, which again is annoying because I'm also kinda maybe on Cantrip and for sure dk and now Axel. Either I'm wrong on one of you guys or it's tom and shadow. Both are possible.
KJ is probably just town here.
@KJ: I am townclearing some people and digging into some others to find scum.
Why do you think there have to be 2 scum on your wagon?
vote Azrael
I looked into some of his town games, and he never posts a read as deep as the one on Grape early game.
Also getting convinced tom is scum.
Feeling a tad better about KCC.
For what it's worth, I took that question as him just not understanding my post, which seemed reasonable to me considering what I had posted.
There's just something about randomly declaring players town while subtly implying you are also town and should be friends.
I didn't like the "I'm new, don't vote me" bit either.
This feels like a very... strange tone to take with someone you are reading 8.5/10 scum?
So, two questions here:
(1) How exactly do you get that my vote was "the worst" out of the string of votes for Killjoy for the exact same reason? Is this purely a timing thing? It seems to me you have to do some serious mental dancing to meaningfully distinguish those votes.
(2) Regardless, I've already come out and said that I was interested in pushing that wagon primarily to see if anything would shake out and less because I actually had a strong read that Killjoy was scum. So, do you not think that's a valid strategy, or do you think I'm not telling the truth about that?
I'm not seeing what you're checking here, yes, I felt the post was town, because I think pushing someone for whatever reason even though weak is pretty townish, especially at early stage, him admitting it was weak was better. But I didn't like that he unvoted while thinking KJ is still scum, and having no one he's going to push. That doesn't change my read that KJ is scum. It just makes my read on Axel not as strong.
I don't understand what I'm replying to. I feel like all I did was repeating myself.
Could you perhaps rephrase that?
Umm, I don't think anyone here have proper meta on me. That said, if what you're talking about is my tone, then it's a personal choice of mine to have a cheerful persona (everywhere). It may or may not comes natural but that's imo is NAI.
Alright.
As for the second one, it was a joke. I never expected anyone to take the whole "don't bully new kid" thing seriously.
Not sure if I'm supposed to have other tone, but that's mine
Top pick for bussing is probably axel with you as a distant second.
It's too early to know for sure, but there's also the possibility of no scum on wagon.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
You didn't say you felt it was town, or that you liked it, you said you agreed. What did you agree with?
I get it was intended to come across jokingly. But all of your fluff and jokes were super focused on avoiding votes against you.
Yes, you should, if you're town who is scumreading him.
Let me phrase this more directly:
Fuwa, what are you trying to "help" him with, in this post?
Vote Count 1.11
Killjoy (4): dkingsland967, Cantripmancer, tomsloger, vezokpiraka
Grapefruit21 (2): Sir Chris, Fuwa
Fuwa (2): KittyCupCake, Grapefruit21
Cantripmancer (1): Vaimes
shadowlancerx (1): beeboy
Syrenz (1): Azrael
tomsloger (1): Syrenz
beeboy (1): shadowlancerx
Azrael (1): Rhand
Abstain (2): Killjoy, Axelrod
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
Because if you think he's scum, then you should want him to get to claim range and claim, not give him more time to make better posts that fool people. Plus, especially if he's already at a high number of votes, then it's more efficient to pursue an active wagon on someone you think is scum than it is to try and start a new one.
This concern also applies to Fuwa's vote of Grape when he rates KJ so highly as scum.
Wait...I have ANOTHER tell you've been using other than the used car salesman? Hmmmm. After you've caught me on it a few times, you'll have to let me in on that secret, too.
It's a little tell, but it was a definite possibility for me at the time. If you're going to townread someone, why go out of your way to use language that paints that person/their actions in a negative light? If Shadow had said "I don't like the excuse to be on every wagon, it avoids accountability and is often indicative of a scum mentality, but I think the way you approached it is probably town", I wouldn't have had a problem, but he used a vague, negative, smearish word instead.
My unvote was off my RVS-Fuwa vote, not unvoting Shadow. I unvoted because the time for having an RVS vote had passed.
I can understand where you're coming from, but telling Vaimes that I'm not scum...doesn't really accomplish much. Does "I'm not scum" really convince you, ever, that someone is town? I saw an attack that didn't make sense and wanted to know how he got there. He hasn't satisfactorily communicated that, but has also made it clear that he's uninterested in explaining it. I've noted it, and I'm moving on.
Do YOU think the post he questioned was deflective?
I went back and looked at the progression, and while KJ gave a read on Fuwa in 59, that was more of a response to KCC's post. 99 was the first time KJ really went "on record" in any significant way, and it's a bit of a summary. I wanted to hear his response to your question before saying this, but I don't think it's as indicative as you want it to be.
Killjoy, not quoting your large post (255) because there are some funky quote elements in there already, but a few responses:
• I wasn't seriously offended; just have a rep to defend, you know?
• I feel like anyone who read GoT and Hill House would be pretty clued in to the "Vaimes not having fun" = scum!Vaimes connection.
• As for your Rhand reaction test, maybe I'm misreading your post. This one:
I took to mean that if Rhand is low-posting/low-impact, he's very likely scum. Did I misread that?
• In the world where you're town, I agree with Shadow that while it's possible there's 1-2 scum on your wagon, it's not definite, and you probably shouldn't overfocus on that at this point (but coming back to it in subsequent days with VC analysis would be good). But IF you're right, I agree that DK is unlikely to be scum, and I have a strong town read on Rhand and a lesser one on Shadow. Tom's pocket is warm and fuzzy. So PoE would be Axel, who I feel is making the "correct" posts for town, but that may actually be because he's town. (Slightly more serious answer: I'd suspect Axel, then Tom, then Shadow, but it wouldn't be a huge shock to learn that your entire wagon was town.) And as for your reasons for a townread on Axel, his post came at a time when he may have just been reading the writing on the wall and thinking your lunch wasn't going to happen/wanted to find a way to get off your wagon.
That's funny, because this is the first post Rhand has made that I haven't loved. Which parts do you like/why?
I support this line of questioning, and your attempt at clearer communication is another +town for you.
I'm pretty happy with KJ's responses. He's not backing down, he's got independent opinions and isn't afraid to poke people while he's under scrutiny.
Vote Fuwa
I like how you avoid answering the question and still like you as scum.
This.
Who are your top picks for scum now and why?
There's a pattern you are engaging in here in developing reads on people without voting. You just laid a rationale for why Tom is scum. Why are you not voting?
Given that this was my last post prior to you making your post, what makes you say this?
Reads to me as more flailing and attention shifting. "People voting me are scum!" Why? Who?
This.
Hmm, I read KJ's posts as attention-shifting and panicked, contrary to hunty and nonplussed. And I read this post as ingenuine.
I'm not familiar with Tom's play, but this. The way he's tossing out reads (and non-responding to questions asked) is completely scummy.
Apologies. The primary difference between now and my last game 7 years ago is that this time, I've got a wife, kids, and a job. Will try to post more though - especially cuz catch up posts are way too long to make...
Azrael, please elaborate on your post here.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
unvote, vote Fuwa
@Azrael: consider my vote also on you.
I considered asking you to do exactly this. I'm glad I didn't now, and am very pleased to see you did this on your own
*Squints* I don't think you're doing this on purpose, because that would be dumb, but you're wildly off-base and I thought you were more familiar with me than this. I often advocate for attempting to win the game on d1 by reading the entire town from start to finish at the same level of depth as I just did Grapefruit. On multiple occasions, I've spearheaded efforts that resulted in some pretty decisive early townie victories through using that methodology. I'd look at some of the past invitional games, I think Cyan's impossible mafia was one, where I did that not only to a single player, but most of the player-base.
If I wanted to elaborate, I'd have elaborated. I was interested in having YOU elaborate. What do you think was wrong with that post?
@shadowlancerx: I'm not reading back right now, but just how scummy do you find Killjoy at this moment?
@Cantrip: Seems like your advocating for quickly pushing those you find scummy into claims without giving said scummy individuals an opportunity to convince people otherwise. That seems like not the best strategy (unless you are like me and believe that if we all always mass claimed D1 we would win because I would be able to figure out the whole game :P.)
But I kinda want to test to see if he’s chainsaw defending Cantrip.
Outstanding questions later tonight.
Please do not mention anything about the circumstances of this replacement.
@Azrael: I think it doesn’t help that all games I looked had have Iso in them.
Anyhow, do you have a scum game for me to check?
Ok, I know how hard it is sometimes to get someone to claim range, especially D1. It's often a process. Sometimes it's fast and furious, but usually not. KJ got to claim range (Shadow brought him back out before he could claim so he could have a chance to respond). He responded. Some players feel better about him, others still think he's scum. If Shadow and Fuwa still think he's scum, why would they try to start a counterwagon? Why not continue to apply pressure where they think scum is on an already established wagon? It just runs counter to what I would expect from a town mindset that seriously thinks KJ is scum.
In other news...
Vote ALJIOJLMRFGHFL
...is a thing I want to do, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and see where it goes.
Vote Azrael
while I read the rest of the game
Second paragraph reaks of manipulation
Lol
Both are good spots
@Cantrip: why go away from a forming wagon? That looks very opposite to everything you just said
Without doing any re-reading at all, I do not have a strong opinion on him, but he's probably in the bottom half of players. Call it "leaning slightly scum." He's done a few things that I haven't liked, but they're fairly small potatoes, and I'm not convinced it isn't just his natural style rubbing me the wrong way.
Not on D1 they aren't. Exactly one of these wagons might accomplish something.
Vote Count 1.12
Fuwa (3): KittyCupCake, Grapefruit21, Rhand
Killjoy (2): dkingsland967, vezokpiraka
Grapefruit21 (2): Sir Chris, Fuwa
Cantripmancer (2): Vaimes, Lastwhisper
shadowlancerx (1): beeboy
Lastwhisper (1): Azrael
beeboy (1): shadowlancerx
Azrael (1): Cantripmancer
Vaimes (1): tomsloger
Abstain (2): Killjoy, Axelrod
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
@Fuwa-chan
Hi <3
currently at 4/2/2, hard to say if it means anything right, if killjoy is a wolf, the wolves dont need to do much of anything right now, as the train will probably just die from paranoia, but feels like this may be town based on the rapid growth of the train, since at one point it grew to 6 before dying back down
the whole pushing to claim post just feels like open wolfing tbh, from Cantrip I mean
looks like you arent ever getting that elaboration, rip
Tom feels like his open wolfing self, I like it
also I doubt he makes that 100% lock town read on Cantrip this early in the game as a wolf
I am also pretty sure he is wrong on that slot, need to dig a little deeper though
outside of my wagonomic reasons on why Killjoy is probably more likely town, someone tell me why I am wrong
I am 100% accurate when it comes to reading beeboy, his commentary so far is right up the alley of his town game, at least for now
nothing forced, just giving his thoughts
In seriousness, I really need more than that.
~~~~~
@Grapefruit: quick quick what’s at the forefront of your mind right now? What’s your current read on me?