Why is top posting such an issue? I grant that as a tiebreaker you default to it, but people (wisp) are using it as a I won't touch that because, without presenting a viable alternative. I guess Wisp is voting Az but entirety of his grievance there seems to be that Az voted him without explaining it, which is not the strongest reason I've seen to vote someone.
I don't have a strong read on Az but this wagon has just cropped up over almost nothing and that always worries me.
I think the way he almost seems to be trying not to make waves and fly under the radar is scummy. I think as town he’d be more prolific.
Which is absolutely not a “wah Az isn’t active enough for my liking,” he just doesn’t have any presence as a town player here.
**So, this post turned into something much longer than intended (surprise!) and I didn't even finish and now I have to go. So, I'm posting it anyway in all it's incomplete glory because I wrote it and I hate to put all these words to waste. Apologies to those who choose to suffer through it. TLDR: so far, at least, I am still Team Sir Chris in Sir Chris v. Shadow**
I'm just tracking Shadow's read on Chris as it has gone throughout the game, given this appears to be what Chris is focused on.
I think the first time Shadow says anything at all about Chris is in #208, where he's in a group of people at "Neutral/Mixed"
Then, he poked at Chris for being absent in #301.
Then Chris makes his Beeboy read in #396 and Shadow asks for specifics in #397. What's somewhat interesting to me is that this Beeboy read from Chris hardly appears to be a strong read. It looks like a mild impression at most. He says he "would be a little surprised" if Beeboy was scum. Not sure when/where this turns into the Beeboy is hard town read that Chris seemed to be pushing later. In that context, the escalation of hostilities that ensues is a bit odd to me.
Chris gives a few examples of what he feels are Beeboy guileless posts. My impression is that these were fine. I agreed with Chris that they were not the kind of thing that clever scum would be posting.
Shadow, however, was not impressed and in #399 states how unconvinced he is by Chris's argument. Basically saying those posts could come from any alignment, because scum can be lazy too. Which, while maybe true, in no way invalidates what appeared to be only a mild Town lean from Chris.
There's another side argument about whether Beeboy's comment that this was a "role madness" game would/should have prompted a response from someone else to correct him. Shadow thinks that someone would likely have corrected Beeboy if he knew it was not "role madness" while Chris takes the position that no one would as it would essentially mean outing yourself as vanilla.
Chris's Town read on Beeboy seems to solidify in #420. It is unclear exactly why except that maybe, in the game Shadow cited where a similar thing had happened, the player who assumed everyone had "complex" roles was Town. So here Beeboy would be the parallel. Chris then further argues that Beeboy's slightly shifting rationales for why/when he made his assumption that this was a Role Madness game further show he's Town. The read is now a "strong Town lean."
Again, I've got no issues with this and this progression from Chris. It's fine as a read. He's not saying "lock-town." It's a strong Town lean. It's fine.
Which is where the argument blows up I guess because Shadow comes back in #428 and says that it's not fine. He says that Chris's read is, in fact, "terrible." Now, if one looks slightly deeper, one can see that Shadow may be specifically arguing here only that it is "terrible" for Chris to argue that because - in that other game - the player who made the false assumption was Town, Beeboy is Town here. And yeah, that would be a poor argument. But I didn't actually read that as Chris's primary argument. I read that as Chris being mostly cheeky. Chris made his more serious arguments elsewhere. But Shadow kind of ignored that to focus on the cheeky post.
KCC votes Chris in #435, and in hindsight I think this is a bad vote. As stated above, nothing Chris had said up to here was particularly bad. Maybe you think his Beeboy read isn't justified, but to say that it "makes no sense" for Chris to possibly have gotten a "strong Town Lean" is just incorrect.
Vez follows with a vote in #440, basically barning KCC.
Shadow then votes Chris in #445 "since it's happening." Urg.
Last Whisperer votes Chris in #450 (with his explanation in #449) Doesn't like Chris's "tonal" read on him.
Chris scoff at his wagon in #464, without calling out anyone on it specifically. Mainly just the notion that he could be wagon-ed for getting an early Town read on someone. He's still more on Grapefruit as his top scum lean.
(KCC 491 is one reason Chris can still be scum)
Here we come to it, Shadow #494 is maybe his strongest take yet. Says Chris's Beeboy defense is "garbage." Barns KCC a bit.
Chris bites back immediately in #495 and votes Shadow. He points out that Shadow initially didn't say Chris's defense of Beeboy was "garbage", only that it "didn't move the dial for him." And this, while true to an extant, misses Shadow's later post where Shadow called a different argument of Chris's "terrible." So it wasn't an immediate transition. Though, as I have pointed out, I thought Chris's read was fine for what it was.
I actually dislike Shadow's #497 in as much as it doesn't really address the issue. Shadow goes back and reposts his original response to Chris and asks Chris to argue it again - why was Beeboy Town at that point? This point being the point where Chris made his "I would be a little surprised if Beeboy were scum" observation. So, I think this is a mis-statement from Shadow as to what Chris was saying at that juncture.
In #500 Shadow justifies his use of the term "garbage" to describe Chris's defense of Beeboy. Seems a bit of a stretch - again, given that Chris was NOT and had never been declaring Beeboy lock-Town. Shadow seems to think Beeboy's posts could have come from any alignment. And, maybe that's true, but my gut tells me Chris is in the right and those posts were more likely from Town.
Shadow appears to have the blinders on in #502 (which is amusing in that he accusing Chris of having the blinders on for him in #506). He asks Chris to give some reads on other people. Fair, maybe? I can't remember how I reacted the last time I got accused wrongly and felt like someone was tunneling me. Maybe I could have asked them to give reads on other people, as a way of helping me read them? It is also entirely possibly I would have just went off on them for how dumb they were being though.... Slightly dislike the way it feels like Shadow could be using the other people voting Chris as pseudo shields. "Hey, I'm not the only one voting you, go look at them."
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Axel, when you get back/ you keep saying you’re on team Chris, do you specifically think we are some form of t/s? What percentage would you say you think we could be t/t?
What's somewhat interesting to me is that this Beeboy read from Chris hardly appears to be a strong read. It looks like a mild impression at most. He says he "would be a little surprised" if Beeboy was scum. Not sure when/where this turns into the Beeboy is hard town read that Chris seemed to be pushing later.
I completely agree with your assessment of this post. However, according to Chris's 605, Chris was ready to 100% defend that read aggressively at that point. It's a key part of his defense, and I'm not seeing it either.
I cannot be the only one seeing that Shadow is flat out refusing to answer my reasonable question about his progression on me, right? Guys? I just asked him to explain his read of me. I didn't ask a trap question or the impossible. He progressed on me and I asked why. Now he is stalling.
Just answer, Shadow. It's not a complicated request.
I have no idea what you are talking about here and that doesn't bode well for you, not for shadow.
Also surely as someone who knows me as you know me, you know I have never been one to tunnel unduly long if someone is town. It's simply not in my history. So let's not act as if I am the type of player who often just tunnels town all day. I have never been that player.
This whole post is just a huge mindset slip.
You start from the assumption that you've never tunneled town as TOWN. Nobody in the game is starting from that assumption. Everyone thinks you might be scum and will consider you town if you do "townie" stuff. A normal townie knows this and will approach the game in a way where he knows others don't know if he is town.
You instead start this post assuming you are town and that everyone else knows this. This is where the mindset slip comes in. You tell yourself that you have to make posts that sound "townie" or that prove your towniness and yet you know who the scumteam is so you enter a weird limbo where you think you are town and you know the scumteam and you come off as thinking all the other townies should realise you are townie.
I'm not sure if anyone else is seeing what I'm seeing, but this feels really bad. I'd never make a post like this as town.
vote Sir chris
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Also I remembered why I liked KCC's post that much. It was the "guilelessness" comment that seemed to escalate to a full blown defense. Saying that the game is role madness could come from any alignment. Hell, I thought it was explicitly stated in the sign up thread that it was role madness, but I'm bad at remembering these kinds of things. But both town and scum could make that comment and never look back so there's no guile at all involved.
Anyway, the read goes progressively deeper and somehow beeboy becomes "Would lynch over my dead body" from "He seems towny" for almost no reason. I think Chris is just trying to play his usual town game, but due to the fact that he is scum, he can't solve anything as he knows everything so it shows through his weird progressions and bad arguments.
And as a closing note, several people have expressed opinions that they don't want to lynch shadow today due to various reasons. Both me and LW have jumped to shadow's defense and I'm sure there would be others if push comes to shove. Trying to push a lynch where your pool of people who needs convincing is so small is just bad on day 1. At the end of the day, you won't get the lynch and the only thing people can analyse about you is the fact that you championed a lynch that wasn't going to happen. This is simply bad play and Chris knows it and is doing it intentionally (as scum not as bad town, Chris is a great player)
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@Axelrod
I'm assuming I am waiting for a second post since I didn't see a conclusion (I guess the TLDR is conclusion)
I'm not much a fan of you taking the time to break down shadows posts, only to say, "right now I am for team Chris", I would also like you to answer Shadow's question
the lack of conclusion, and the fact that it feels like you are playing middleman to Chris vs. Shadow, makes me think that this was just words to look townie
I think we call this white-knighting, or maybe a pocket on Chris? The wolves are more likely to side with Chris based on his personality
I want to say it's doubtful that if you are wolf, that you are a wolf with either Shadow or Chris based on the fact that regardless of the length and work put into this post, it just feels tonal-wise like you don't care about either
@Vez
ya I don't really see it, also Sir Chris is quite self-aware, and if anything he defends himself almost in the same manner that I do, which does lead to a lot of things one might call a "slip"
Trying to push a lynch where your pool of people who needs convincing is so small is just bad on day 1. At the end of the day, you won't get the lynch and the only thing people can analyse about you is the fact that you championed a lynch that wasn't going to happen.
as I always say, it doesn't matter who you think is scum, it matters who you can get lynched
I think Chris is just trying to play his usual town game, but due to the fact that he is scum, he can't solve anything as he knows everything so it shows through his weird progressions and bad arguments.
I'm not following your mindset slip in the other post either, but this right here is spot on.
Oh. So from lukewarm, I re-examined and heard some other input from players who also didn’t like your reasoning (KCC being prominent here). Along with it coinciding with my push on Beeboy, and I thought to myself “hang on a minute, those reasons really were not good at all” and so I called them garbage. And then I used the term “questionable” almost solely because you got so uppity about me calling it a garbage. Still think it’s a baseless read, even if it is right. Could be a product of you being better at inferring things than I am, I’m not so vain as to not consider that.
But yeah, if it’s just a matter of me being wrong then questionable is more fitting.
This explanation of word choice does not align with your tone changes on me. You explain the word choices here but not why you stopped going after me at the precise moment momentum on me generally died.
Vezok it is weird you say that when in response to KCC I actually went into pretty good detail. I even broke out my 6 segment chart of good-bad play and went through my thinking process. Like do I need to go into ms paint and draw it for you? Also I am for sure not a "normal" townie so I can understand your baseline assumption there being off. I think this vote probably makes you town though, as I think scum already took their swing at me and now you are trying to squint reaaaaally hard to see things. Which is useful to me, so that works out OK.
Anyway the reason I refused to do anything other than Shadow last night is I asked a question and he just kept not answering it. I was not going to give Shadow anything he wanted at all until he answered my question. It took him hours to do so, and to me it wasn't very satisfying of an answer. I expected a town person to be able to answer that quite easily, especially if you want me off your back genuinely. The way he evaded the question, tried to ask if it mattered, etc is really worrying and I am curious why it doesn't worry more people.
For example Beeboy is kind of a soft target when they were getting votes so I have to look back at the full wagon, as there is for sure some scum there.
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So anyway Beeboy, who people started to warm up to a bit after I did my evil voodo magic, had a max wagon of DK/Tom/Shadow/KCC/Rhand
So to those who think Shadow is misunderstood town, including Shadow himself I suppose, do you think this wagon on beeboy is a pure one? If you were to break down the alignment of thes five players how would they be segmented? If you want to bring the heat to KCC please be very detailed as I have a strong town lean on that slot.
To follow up on something, the reason my read progressed on Beeboy had little to do with new posts from the slot. I was asked and requested to go back and justify myself multiple times and when I am asked to do that each time I will think over things. I think it is fair to ask me to consider why I do things, and if perhaps I am being soft on my town leans. I can sometimes handwave a bit (Shadow last game as an example) and so when someone asks something of me I will do my best to give it thought. So basically each new time I was pressed or attacked on Beeboy I rolled it around in my head and eventually what was originally a single thought developed into a complex series of reasonings because I was challenged.
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“Kept asking”
Twice. And to be fair, it’s the kind of question that looks a lot more like you want to use it to beat me over the head with than to figure me out, especially with the rest of your rhetoric about me. (Also it is pointless, I’m not today’s lynch)
As far as the Beeboy wagon, it could be pure, especially if Beeboy is scum. If not, I’d need to look over Tom and DK, as those are the two I’m the least solid on.
Working on catch-up. Before I get into the meat and potatoes, @Sir Chris, why did you suddenly ramp up to belligerent and hostile around page 14? Post #669 in particular toes the line into unnecessary insulting.
For anyone else who is more familiar with Chris's play, is this normal for him? I was getting townie vibes from his Beeboy defense and the early posts in the slapfight with shadow, but the tone change throws me.
I want to say it's doubtful that if you are wolf, that you are a wolf with either Shadow or Chris based on the fact that regardless of the length and work put into this post, it just feels tonal-wise like you don't care about either
This is a point worth /barning.
The only way scum!Axelrod puts in that much work on the shadow/Chris fight is if both of them are town and he is trying to stoke the flames so the wagons don't die.
You have 5 votes Shadow, if you are town there are at least some town people misunderstanding you. Also I had to ask twice, that's once too many tbh.
As for 669, because Vaimes wasn't engaging in good faith arguments and if he is going to be lazy and not back up his arguments like he was he could enjoy his time in other ways.
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You have 5 votes Shadow, if you are town there are at least some town people misunderstanding you. Also I had to ask twice, that's once too many tbh.
As for 669, because Vaimes wasn't engaging in good faith arguments and if he is going to be lazy and not back up his arguments like he was he could enjoy his time in other ways.
If you wanna go that route, how many times did I ask you questions for you to blow me off? Seriously, it’s gonna be a long fall off that high horse unless you stop acting like you’re infallible.
If you’re willing to take me seriously for one second though, tell me: I am now mod confirmed town, where does that lead you? Who do you go after? Who pushing me do you suspect the most? Who defending me is white knighting?
Okay, tell you what: ask any questions you have again. I blew you off because you were not answering. I did so to force you to answer my questions, but you answered mine so I am now inclined to answer yours. That's fair.
Anyway if you are town I start with dk/tom/rhand and looking more into them. I do not believe the beeboy wagon is pure and if you are town and KCC I think is town that's a good starting place. I have also been wary of Wisp for circling us (he has voted both of us and is now kind of defending both of us and I don't understand the progression) and also I think Az has looked fine so the Az wagon is not pure imo either.
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I don't think there is scum on bee's wagon. It was so fast that there's no guarantee scum had a chance to exploit it. The only maybe in there is Tom, and that's a low maybe.
@Chris: I am pretty sure you blew me off before you started asking your question of me, but it’s done. Thanks for the thoughts, I’d recommend starting to dig into those reads more.
Just a couple more:
What percent are you on town!beeboy? Can you go into detail on Az and what you have specifically liked about him?
Axel, when you get back/ you keep saying you’re on team Chris, do you specifically think we are some form of t/s? What percentage would you say you think we could be t/t?
What I'm saying is that - to at least the point where I reviewed up to - I agree more with what Sir Chris is saying (about you/about his Beeboy defense) than what you are saying. I find his logic more compelling and his responses more fair. This is not super-strong stuff, however. There are no smoking guns yet. Chris's initial Beeboy remark could easily, trivially, have come from scum-Chris. The fact that people have jumped on him for them in ways that seem inaccurate to me does not mean he is Town. If I had to vote for one of you at this juncture, however, it would be you.
I am not and have not decided on what a T/S flip from one of you means for the other, though I don't feel like this is S/S. That would be some kind of theater. T/T is still a possibility. I have no idea about %.
@Axelrod
I'm assuming I am waiting for a second post since I didn't see a conclusion (I guess the TLDR is conclusion)
I'm not much a fan of you taking the time to break down shadows posts, only to say, "right now I am for team Chris", I would also like you to answer Shadow's question
Dude, you say you see that it was an incomplete post/thought but you're still attacking the very, very general summation of my thoughts up to that point for being incomplete?
the lack of conclusion, and the fact that it feels like you are playing middleman to Chris vs. Shadow, makes me think that this was just words to look townie
I think we call this white-knighting, or maybe a pocket on Chris? The wolves are more likely to side with Chris based on his personality
I want to say it's doubtful that if you are wolf, that you are a wolf with either Shadow or Chris based on the fact that regardless of the length and work put into this post, it just feels tonal-wise like you don't care about either
I'm just researching (or I was trying to just research) a fairly straightforward issue - how did Shadow's read on Chris develop and does it track with other posts in the game. If it sounds like I don't care, it's probably because I don't have an agenda and am trying to be objective. It is possible, that had I had another 2 hours to finish I might have had some stronger opinions by the end and then re-edited the whole thing with that in mind, but I didn't get that far. It is also possible that I will end the whole thing with a big
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Oh I care. It's rare that I come to strong conclusions though - on D1.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I mentioned in one of my first posts that Az *frowned* at Rhand for his RVS vote when his was a literal carbon copy. Az has barely directly engaged anyone, he has mostly only answered questions that have been directly asked of him, and frequently with quick snarky responses. He's throwing snipes like *frowns* and *narrows eyes* and outright refuses to extrapolate on his reads when asked. Also, something bothers me about post 311... Rhand asked for a recent scum game, and Azrael returns with a huge list of completed games (most of which are town wins). It reads to me like overcompensating to a large degree. And I find myself still in agreement with Rhand about Azrael's way-too-quick-and-confident early town read on Grape, which makes a lot more sense if he's trying to town-clear his buddy.
I encourage everyone to ISO Grape and examine his progression through his reads. It's textbook scum behavior. Early in the game he grabbed onto something Vaimes had asked me about my mafia activity as evidence of a Vaimes/DK scum pairing. Then in post 227 he mentions that Vaimes is independently townie, while in the very same post answering my question toward him about his claim of Vaimes and me potentially being buddies. He also uses passive language to diminish the significance of the observation when he says it is "Super flimsy but not nothing". Shortly after this, he has Vaimes in his town pile and me in his top scum reads, without ever offering another reason for why I am scum other than the "super flimsy but not nothing" Vaimes thing.
In his assessment of Killjoy, Grape mentioned he loved the way KJ narrowed down his list to take me off. If I'm one of Grape's top two scum reads, why did he not try to convince KJ that he's wrong? Instead he just complemented the process and acknowledged the results.
He also asked a few people why they didn't agree with his Axel read from the Killjoy wagon, and promptly dropped it.
Another red flag for me: Grape tried to warn off everyone from town-reading shadow early in the game, but then later proceeded to ask Shadow why their reads lists were not lining up. In a later post he said he was not interested in voting Shadow "yet". He also tried to needle someone (I think Vaimes, but it might have been Cantrip) about Shadow's "gross" comment from the early game. It's like he is trying to put it out there in a subtle manner that Shadow might be scum, but doesn't want to get his hands dirty. Note that he waited to vote Shadow until a bunch of other players did.
Grape's vote on tom in 613 is virtually naked, especially when he had recently asked Vaimes why tom was scum.
tl;dr: Grape is scum half-assing his reads, which is why he isn't doing a good job of keeping them straight and consistent, and why he has also been trying to find someone to agree with his reads that don't align with the more vocal players in the game.
Other notes:
- I'm also back to a lean scum read on Killjoy. He has had a few recent posts (primarily 551 and 578) that have him back on my radar. The first paragraph of 551 feels really unnatural and forced, and KCC picked up on something from 578 that I disliked. Also, KJ kinda disappeared for a while after the pressure on him fell off.
- I'm a bit wary of Rhand because of his voting patterns, as it looked like he was just following me around on KJ/Beeboy. From a content standpoint, he's mostly been fine.
- I have pretty solid town reads on vezokpiraka, Cantripmancer, KCC and Axelrod. I've liked Shadow for most of the game as well.
- Everyone else is mostly neutral. Holding off on Sir Chris until I get a little more insight from my question above regarding the tone shift/belligerence.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It was something to the tune of “you will take my vote and like it” or similar. You quoted it at one point.
I have no problem pushing along the Az wagon, but I think he is at five or six votes. I would rather some attention be paid to Grapefruit first since he has been flying under the radar for most of the game.
Where am I? Yeah, I don't even know anymore. Time to take stock.
• Rhand - Strong mindmeld for most the game. I will be surprised if he's scum.
• KittyCupCake - Strong overall solving mentality. I want to take another look at her Chris vote that someone pointed out, but also will be surprised if she's scum.
• vezokpiraka - Likely town by claim.
• killjoy - Pretty strong town lean for how he responded to wagon pressure.
• dkingsland967 - Pretty pure posting in general, and I liked his last two posts (especially 729) for their thought progression. Dkings, why is your vote still on Beeboy after that, though? EWP: I don't understand why people are so ok with half-wagons this game, but even if you don't want to vote Az, why no Grape vote?
• Lastwhisper r. Syrenz - If Az flips scum, good chance she's town. 626 pinged me for the lack of critical thought on voting KCC (just barning Grape), but the admission of that choice probably doesn't come from scum. That, and multiple posts I've noticed like 680 where she's trying to get a player (in this case, Chris) to examine their own motivations make her a good town lean.
• Vaimes - Recent posts have felt like predominantly snarky one-liners, but with intent. In this half-wagon happy environment where there are wagons on Az, Shadow, Tom, and Chris, him being unconcerned about making waves is probably more likely to come from town. Vaimes, you never answered me: why did you "superlike" 256?
• Grapefruit21 - Felt like his posts have had conviction, haven't felt like he's being manipulative or seeking an agenda. Lean town. Grape, can you walk me through your process on 613-615? Specifically the vote on Tom followed by the shift to Shadow? As for my vote on Az, it's primarily for the way he went about attacking Syrenz.
• beeboy - I've liked a lot of his recent posts, mild town lean. Beeboy, say that Shadow is off the table and you also can't generate enough interest in Tom; who would you want to lunch?
• Axelrod - I agree that if he's scum then there's a good chance that both Shadow and Chris are town, but the only thing I find questionable about 702 is that it sounds like he's trying to be impartial, but that's only if I squint, and that could also completely come from town, especially since he ran out of time. I've liked--or haven't disliked--most of his posts, though. Lean town.
• tomsloger - Hasn't really posted since I last weighed in, still think it's possible he was trying to avoid NK before determining that game was role madness, I'll reassess after he catches up.
• Sir Chris - I'm a little gunshy here. There are posts I've liked and posts I haven't, but nothing that feels outside his town behavior in Hill House. He shouldn't be in my null pile, but right now that's where I'm at.
• Fuwa - Early game innocence, but lack of content is frustrating. 590 is the kind of post I always want to read into but it's probably nothing. Null, need more content.
• shadowlancerx - There have been lots of little things that make me question him. Recently 703 and one other post that I can't quickly find pinged me as Shadow hiding in the grey areas, but re-reading 703 it doesn't feel that strongly to me now. I'll have to find that other post. Really want to town read him for his "you're not lunching me toDay" assertiveness, but we also both just came out of Hill House, where town!Silver did the same thing. Just on the scum side of null.
• Azrael - Attack on Syrenz feels malicious and intended as a trap. Frustrated that his acknowledgement of that being a bad attack makes me feel like maybe I'm just not playing at his level.
That is...a whole lot of townreads, and I didn't really expect Shadow to be my only other scum read beside Az. Chances that the scum team is exactly four of Tom/Chris/Fuwa/Shadow/Az are probably very low.
People should ask me questions so I can re-engage/re-assess.
Hi Cantrip, why does silver doing something as town in Hill House make it something I would do as scum here exactly? Do you remember why silver was saying he wasn’t to be the lynch? (Yes or no will do, I don’t need the reason)
Also, regarding your Axel read, I agree that his wall post did come off as trying to be impartial but not really, but I think that’s just confirmation bias.
It's not like there weren't other options at the time if you didn't like the shadow wagon.
I'm not just throwing my vote around anywhere.
As for shadow, that's the absolute last person I would vote here.
You don't want to throw your vote around just anywhere, but you threw it on a wagon that you didn't want to happen? Like I said there were other options than just Shadow or Az at that stage.
Why is top posting such an issue? I grant that as a tiebreaker you default to it, but people (wisp) are using it as a I won't touch that because, without presenting a viable alternative. I guess Wisp is voting Az but entirety of his grievance there seems to be that Az voted him without explaining it, which is not the strongest reason I've seen to vote someone.
I don't have a strong read on Az but this wagon has just cropped up over almost nothing and that always worries me.
I think the way he almost seems to be trying not to make waves and fly under the radar is scummy. I think as town he’d be more prolific.
Which is absolutely not a “wah Az isn’t active enough for my liking,” he just doesn’t have any presence as a town player here.
I'll take another look for that. That's opposite to my recollection of Az (I felt he was actively trying to make a splash see: the LW votes) but I can see the less prolific thing but that's basically just activity.
@DK you'll have to explain to me why it's impossible to have a buddy read between two players while having a town read on one of them. Also I don't understand your problem with me liking KJ taking you out of his pool. It's entirely possible to think someone is showing right process and reaching exactly the wrong conclusions. KJ has been utterly lacking malice, doesn't mean I think his reads are gospel.
@Cantrip Tom's vote on Beeboy was really bad. Shadow's was pretty bad. I voted tom before realizing where the wagons were. I'd still rather push tom than Shadow but I think we have decent chances with both of them. I'll go back and check the Syrenz push. His 545 is very underwhelming (and fits Vaimes point actually).
I have no problem pushing along the Az wagon, but I think he is at five or six votes. I would rather some attention be paid to Grapefruit first since he has been flying under the radar for most of the game.
After reading Grape’s and Az’s isos, Grape has some buddy vibes towards Az that are worth putting under a microscope if either flips scum. Az has his pretty strong town read on Grape early, which would be some pretty active powerwolfing, not outside of the wheelhouse, so worth noting. He has very little interaction/to say about Grape other than that though.
So yeah, while I approve of your pressure on Grape, I’d be happier if we could run Az to claim range and assess from there.
You don't want to throw your vote around just anywhere, but you threw it on a wagon that you didn't want to happen? Like I said there were other options than just Shadow or Az at that stage.
There are 3 people I have a strong enough read on that I'd be willing to vote here. Az is one of them. I wasn't saying I was against an Az wagon happening, I just have enough experience with him that I wasn't excited about having to do it. If I'm right about Chris, I'm sure I'll hold the same sentiment there in the future.
@dk/shadow: I'm getting a pretty strong town read on grape. I'm really not interested in pushing that way today. And I disagree on your Az/grape read, I don't think scumAz makes analysis like that on a buddy in those circumstances.
Hi Cantrip, why does silver doing something as town in Hill House make it something I would do as scum here exactly? Do you remember why silver was saying he wasn’t to be the lynch? (Yes or no will do, I don’t need the reason)
Silver, despite some people having scum reads on him, garnered several town reads (and reversed some reads, iirc) by dint of the force of his "you're not lunching me toDay" assertions (heavily implying that he was an unlunchable power role). You could be imitating that here.
Quote from Shadow »
Also, Last is male.
Wait, what?
Wisp, preferred pronouns? I thought from Phantom...?
@Cantrip Tom's vote on Beeboy was really bad. Shadow's was pretty bad. I voted tom before realizing where the wagons were. I'd still rather push tom than Shadow but I think we have decent chances with both of them.
Ok...you think they're w/w, then?
Quote from Grape »
I'll go back and check the Syrenz push. His 545 is very underwhelming (and fits Vaimes point actually).
I'd appreciate you looking at Az's Syrenz push. Which point of Vaimes do you feel 545 fits?
@chris
I am waffling on you and shadow because I honestly don't know, right now I am reading you on a micro anaylsis, and shadow on a macro read based on his overall content
Yes there are probably bad posts i can pick out from both of you atm, but I'm not worried about your slots atm, since if you are both town, I would argue lynching either of you is quite bad
Idk why Azreal can instantiate on his read of my previous slot holder, it makes literally no sense from either a wolf or town perspective, but I would like to think town Azreal is more likely to go this long without worrying about the backlash of it
Take "I would like to think" very loosely though
Don't really know where else I would place my vote at though currently
Idk why Azreal can instantiate on his read of my previous slot holder, it makes literally no sense from either a wolf or town perspective, but I would like to think town Azreal is more likely to go this long without worrying about the backlash of it
Take "I would like to think" very loosely though
Don't really know where else I would place my vote at though currently
For example, post 227 that dk pointed out. It's a bit of a headache to wind back through the post chain it references, but it's based on a subtle interaction between dk and vaimes in RVS. DK doesn't think grape should hold vaimes as independently townie, while also considering a dk/vaimes scum team. I don't see a problem there, I make notes like that all the time. And the fact that grape noticed that odd RVS exchange and thought about what could have caused it is a huge point in favor of grape actually trying to figure things out.
And I see a ton of that in his posts: signs of genuine hunting and nothing that jumps out to the contrary.
@DK you'll have to explain to me why it's impossible to have a buddy read between two players while having a town read on one of them. Also I don't understand your problem with me liking KJ taking you out of his pool. It's entirely possible to think someone is showing right process and reaching exactly the wrong conclusions. KJ has been utterly lacking malice, doesn't mean I think his reads are gospel.
My problem with your response to Killjoy is that it’s a good illustration of a larger pattern: your reads have no conviction. You haven’t tried to push them at all; rather you have asked different players for their opinions.
As for the Vaimes/me thing, see below (because multi-quote on mobile is a nightmare).
For example, post 227 that dk pointed out. It's a bit of a headache to wind back through the post chain it references, but it's based on a subtle interaction between dk and vaimes in RVS. DK doesn't think grape should hold vaimes as independently townie, while also considering a dk/vaimes scum team. I don't see a problem there, I make notes like that all the time. And the fact that grape noticed that odd RVS exchange and thought about what could have caused it is a huge point in favor of grape actually trying to figure things out.
You’re misunderstanding my issue here.
I have no problem with Grape’s question, or with him seeing a potential pair, or even having an independent scum read on me. I keep notes on stuff like that as well. Example: I commented in the thread that due to interactions around the wagon, I could see Tom’s vote on KJ as a bus vote. However, that’s something that only holds up if KJ is scum, so it isn’t clouding my reads right now.
Where I see an issue is that the only reason Grape has articulated in this entire thread for his scum read on me is that pairing. So Grape still listing me as a top scum read while thinking Vaimes is town doesn’t track.
Dkings, I went rogue on an Az wagon of one to make a point and attempt to force Az to explain (look how well that worked out... But the wagon grew, so it's all good). You've explained your read on Grape and he's responding to you. What good does your singular vote on Grape at this point accomplish? Come apply pressure to Az.
Which is absolutely not a “wah Az isn’t active enough for my liking,” he just doesn’t have any presence as a town player here.
I'm just tracking Shadow's read on Chris as it has gone throughout the game, given this appears to be what Chris is focused on.
I think the first time Shadow says anything at all about Chris is in #208, where he's in a group of people at "Neutral/Mixed"
Then, he poked at Chris for being absent in #301.
Then Chris makes his Beeboy read in #396 and Shadow asks for specifics in #397. What's somewhat interesting to me is that this Beeboy read from Chris hardly appears to be a strong read. It looks like a mild impression at most. He says he "would be a little surprised" if Beeboy was scum. Not sure when/where this turns into the Beeboy is hard town read that Chris seemed to be pushing later. In that context, the escalation of hostilities that ensues is a bit odd to me.
Chris gives a few examples of what he feels are Beeboy guileless posts. My impression is that these were fine. I agreed with Chris that they were not the kind of thing that clever scum would be posting.
Shadow, however, was not impressed and in #399 states how unconvinced he is by Chris's argument. Basically saying those posts could come from any alignment, because scum can be lazy too. Which, while maybe true, in no way invalidates what appeared to be only a mild Town lean from Chris.
There's another side argument about whether Beeboy's comment that this was a "role madness" game would/should have prompted a response from someone else to correct him. Shadow thinks that someone would likely have corrected Beeboy if he knew it was not "role madness" while Chris takes the position that no one would as it would essentially mean outing yourself as vanilla.
Chris's Town read on Beeboy seems to solidify in #420. It is unclear exactly why except that maybe, in the game Shadow cited where a similar thing had happened, the player who assumed everyone had "complex" roles was Town. So here Beeboy would be the parallel. Chris then further argues that Beeboy's slightly shifting rationales for why/when he made his assumption that this was a Role Madness game further show he's Town. The read is now a "strong Town lean."
Again, I've got no issues with this and this progression from Chris. It's fine as a read. He's not saying "lock-town." It's a strong Town lean. It's fine.
Which is where the argument blows up I guess because Shadow comes back in #428 and says that it's not fine. He says that Chris's read is, in fact, "terrible." Now, if one looks slightly deeper, one can see that Shadow may be specifically arguing here only that it is "terrible" for Chris to argue that because - in that other game - the player who made the false assumption was Town, Beeboy is Town here. And yeah, that would be a poor argument. But I didn't actually read that as Chris's primary argument. I read that as Chris being mostly cheeky. Chris made his more serious arguments elsewhere. But Shadow kind of ignored that to focus on the cheeky post.
KCC votes Chris in #435, and in hindsight I think this is a bad vote. As stated above, nothing Chris had said up to here was particularly bad. Maybe you think his Beeboy read isn't justified, but to say that it "makes no sense" for Chris to possibly have gotten a "strong Town Lean" is just incorrect.
Vez follows with a vote in #440, basically barning KCC.
Shadow then votes Chris in #445 "since it's happening." Urg.
Last Whisperer votes Chris in #450 (with his explanation in #449) Doesn't like Chris's "tonal" read on him.
Chris scoff at his wagon in #464, without calling out anyone on it specifically. Mainly just the notion that he could be wagon-ed for getting an early Town read on someone. He's still more on Grapefruit as his top scum lean.
(KCC 491 is one reason Chris can still be scum)
Here we come to it, Shadow #494 is maybe his strongest take yet. Says Chris's Beeboy defense is "garbage." Barns KCC a bit.
Chris bites back immediately in #495 and votes Shadow. He points out that Shadow initially didn't say Chris's defense of Beeboy was "garbage", only that it "didn't move the dial for him." And this, while true to an extant, misses Shadow's later post where Shadow called a different argument of Chris's "terrible." So it wasn't an immediate transition. Though, as I have pointed out, I thought Chris's read was fine for what it was.
I actually dislike Shadow's #497 in as much as it doesn't really address the issue. Shadow goes back and reposts his original response to Chris and asks Chris to argue it again - why was Beeboy Town at that point? This point being the point where Chris made his "I would be a little surprised if Beeboy were scum" observation. So, I think this is a mis-statement from Shadow as to what Chris was saying at that juncture.
In #500 Shadow justifies his use of the term "garbage" to describe Chris's defense of Beeboy. Seems a bit of a stretch - again, given that Chris was NOT and had never been declaring Beeboy lock-Town. Shadow seems to think Beeboy's posts could have come from any alignment. And, maybe that's true, but my gut tells me Chris is in the right and those posts were more likely from Town.
Shadow appears to have the blinders on in #502 (which is amusing in that he accusing Chris of having the blinders on for him in #506). He asks Chris to give some reads on other people. Fair, maybe? I can't remember how I reacted the last time I got accused wrongly and felt like someone was tunneling me. Maybe I could have asked them to give reads on other people, as a way of helping me read them? It is also entirely possibly I would have just went off on them for how dumb they were being though.... Slightly dislike the way it feels like Shadow could be using the other people voting Chris as pseudo shields. "Hey, I'm not the only one voting you, go look at them."
I have no idea what you are talking about here and that doesn't bode well for you, not for shadow.
This whole post is just a huge mindset slip.
You start from the assumption that you've never tunneled town as TOWN. Nobody in the game is starting from that assumption. Everyone thinks you might be scum and will consider you town if you do "townie" stuff. A normal townie knows this and will approach the game in a way where he knows others don't know if he is town.
You instead start this post assuming you are town and that everyone else knows this. This is where the mindset slip comes in. You tell yourself that you have to make posts that sound "townie" or that prove your towniness and yet you know who the scumteam is so you enter a weird limbo where you think you are town and you know the scumteam and you come off as thinking all the other townies should realise you are townie.
I'm not sure if anyone else is seeing what I'm seeing, but this feels really bad. I'd never make a post like this as town.
vote Sir chris
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Anyway, the read goes progressively deeper and somehow beeboy becomes "Would lynch over my dead body" from "He seems towny" for almost no reason. I think Chris is just trying to play his usual town game, but due to the fact that he is scum, he can't solve anything as he knows everything so it shows through his weird progressions and bad arguments.
And as a closing note, several people have expressed opinions that they don't want to lynch shadow today due to various reasons. Both me and LW have jumped to shadow's defense and I'm sure there would be others if push comes to shove. Trying to push a lynch where your pool of people who needs convincing is so small is just bad on day 1. At the end of the day, you won't get the lynch and the only thing people can analyse about you is the fact that you championed a lynch that wasn't going to happen. This is simply bad play and Chris knows it and is doing it intentionally (as scum not as bad town, Chris is a great player)
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I'm assuming I am waiting for a second post since I didn't see a conclusion (I guess the TLDR is conclusion)
I'm not much a fan of you taking the time to break down shadows posts, only to say, "right now I am for team Chris", I would also like you to answer Shadow's question
the lack of conclusion, and the fact that it feels like you are playing middleman to Chris vs. Shadow, makes me think that this was just words to look townie
I think we call this white-knighting, or maybe a pocket on Chris? The wolves are more likely to side with Chris based on his personality
I want to say it's doubtful that if you are wolf, that you are a wolf with either Shadow or Chris based on the fact that regardless of the length and work put into this post, it just feels tonal-wise like you don't care about either
ya I don't really see it, also Sir Chris is quite self-aware, and if anything he defends himself almost in the same manner that I do, which does lead to a lot of things one might call a "slip"
as I always say, it doesn't matter who you think is scum, it matters who you can get lynched
I'm not following your mindset slip in the other post either, but this right here is spot on.
This explanation of word choice does not align with your tone changes on me. You explain the word choices here but not why you stopped going after me at the precise moment momentum on me generally died.
Vezok it is weird you say that when in response to KCC I actually went into pretty good detail. I even broke out my 6 segment chart of good-bad play and went through my thinking process. Like do I need to go into ms paint and draw it for you? Also I am for sure not a "normal" townie so I can understand your baseline assumption there being off. I think this vote probably makes you town though, as I think scum already took their swing at me and now you are trying to squint reaaaaally hard to see things. Which is useful to me, so that works out OK.
Anyway the reason I refused to do anything other than Shadow last night is I asked a question and he just kept not answering it. I was not going to give Shadow anything he wanted at all until he answered my question. It took him hours to do so, and to me it wasn't very satisfying of an answer. I expected a town person to be able to answer that quite easily, especially if you want me off your back genuinely. The way he evaded the question, tried to ask if it mattered, etc is really worrying and I am curious why it doesn't worry more people.
For example Beeboy is kind of a soft target when they were getting votes so I have to look back at the full wagon, as there is for sure some scum there.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
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2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
So to those who think Shadow is misunderstood town, including Shadow himself I suppose, do you think this wagon on beeboy is a pure one? If you were to break down the alignment of thes five players how would they be segmented? If you want to bring the heat to KCC please be very detailed as I have a strong town lean on that slot.
To follow up on something, the reason my read progressed on Beeboy had little to do with new posts from the slot. I was asked and requested to go back and justify myself multiple times and when I am asked to do that each time I will think over things. I think it is fair to ask me to consider why I do things, and if perhaps I am being soft on my town leans. I can sometimes handwave a bit (Shadow last game as an example) and so when someone asks something of me I will do my best to give it thought. So basically each new time I was pressed or attacked on Beeboy I rolled it around in my head and eventually what was originally a single thought developed into a complex series of reasonings because I was challenged.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Twice. And to be fair, it’s the kind of question that looks a lot more like you want to use it to beat me over the head with than to figure me out, especially with the rest of your rhetoric about me. (Also it is pointless, I’m not today’s lynch)
As far as the Beeboy wagon, it could be pure, especially if Beeboy is scum. If not, I’d need to look over Tom and DK, as those are the two I’m the least solid on.
For anyone else who is more familiar with Chris's play, is this normal for him? I was getting townie vibes from his Beeboy defense and the early posts in the slapfight with shadow, but the tone change throws me.
This is a point worth /barning.
The only way scum!Axelrod puts in that much work on the shadow/Chris fight is if both of them are town and he is trying to stoke the flames so the wagons don't die.
As for 669, because Vaimes wasn't engaging in good faith arguments and if he is going to be lazy and not back up his arguments like he was he could enjoy his time in other ways.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
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2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Ok back for real later today
Anyway if you are town I start with dk/tom/rhand and looking more into them. I do not believe the beeboy wagon is pure and if you are town and KCC I think is town that's a good starting place. I have also been wary of Wisp for circling us (he has voted both of us and is now kind of defending both of us and I don't understand the progression) and also I think Az has looked fine so the Az wagon is not pure imo either.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
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2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Just a couple more:
What percent are you on town!beeboy? Can you go into detail on Az and what you have specifically liked about him?
I am not and have not decided on what a T/S flip from one of you means for the other, though I don't feel like this is S/S. That would be some kind of theater. T/T is still a possibility. I have no idea about %.
Dude, you say you see that it was an incomplete post/thought but you're still attacking the very, very general summation of my thoughts up to that point for being incomplete?
I'm just researching (or I was trying to just research) a fairly straightforward issue - how did Shadow's read on Chris develop and does it track with other posts in the game. If it sounds like I don't care, it's probably because I don't have an agenda and am trying to be objective. It is possible, that had I had another 2 hours to finish I might have had some stronger opinions by the end and then re-edited the whole thing with that in mind, but I didn't get that far. It is also possible that I will end the whole thing with a big
Fair, those were just my thoughts, don't see how not caring is a townie way of thinking though
/Shrug
Anyways I gotta head to work
I mentioned in one of my first posts that Az *frowned* at Rhand for his RVS vote when his was a literal carbon copy. Az has barely directly engaged anyone, he has mostly only answered questions that have been directly asked of him, and frequently with quick snarky responses. He's throwing snipes like *frowns* and *narrows eyes* and outright refuses to extrapolate on his reads when asked. Also, something bothers me about post 311... Rhand asked for a recent scum game, and Azrael returns with a huge list of completed games (most of which are town wins). It reads to me like overcompensating to a large degree. And I find myself still in agreement with Rhand about Azrael's way-too-quick-and-confident early town read on Grape, which makes a lot more sense if he's trying to town-clear his buddy.
I encourage everyone to ISO Grape and examine his progression through his reads. It's textbook scum behavior. Early in the game he grabbed onto something Vaimes had asked me about my mafia activity as evidence of a Vaimes/DK scum pairing. Then in post 227 he mentions that Vaimes is independently townie, while in the very same post answering my question toward him about his claim of Vaimes and me potentially being buddies. He also uses passive language to diminish the significance of the observation when he says it is "Super flimsy but not nothing". Shortly after this, he has Vaimes in his town pile and me in his top scum reads, without ever offering another reason for why I am scum other than the "super flimsy but not nothing" Vaimes thing.
In his assessment of Killjoy, Grape mentioned he loved the way KJ narrowed down his list to take me off. If I'm one of Grape's top two scum reads, why did he not try to convince KJ that he's wrong? Instead he just complemented the process and acknowledged the results.
He also asked a few people why they didn't agree with his Axel read from the Killjoy wagon, and promptly dropped it.
Another red flag for me: Grape tried to warn off everyone from town-reading shadow early in the game, but then later proceeded to ask Shadow why their reads lists were not lining up. In a later post he said he was not interested in voting Shadow "yet". He also tried to needle someone (I think Vaimes, but it might have been Cantrip) about Shadow's "gross" comment from the early game. It's like he is trying to put it out there in a subtle manner that Shadow might be scum, but doesn't want to get his hands dirty. Note that he waited to vote Shadow until a bunch of other players did.
Grape's vote on tom in 613 is virtually naked, especially when he had recently asked Vaimes why tom was scum.
tl;dr: Grape is scum half-assing his reads, which is why he isn't doing a good job of keeping them straight and consistent, and why he has also been trying to find someone to agree with his reads that don't align with the more vocal players in the game.
Other notes:
- I'm also back to a lean scum read on Killjoy. He has had a few recent posts (primarily 551 and 578) that have him back on my radar. The first paragraph of 551 feels really unnatural and forced, and KCC picked up on something from 578 that I disliked. Also, KJ kinda disappeared for a while after the pressure on him fell off.
- I'm a bit wary of Rhand because of his voting patterns, as it looked like he was just following me around on KJ/Beeboy. From a content standpoint, he's mostly been fine.
- I have pretty solid town reads on vezokpiraka, Cantripmancer, KCC and Axelrod. I've liked Shadow for most of the game as well.
- Everyone else is mostly neutral. Holding off on Sir Chris until I get a little more insight from my question above regarding the tone shift/belligerence.
You're going to have to remind me what that is, I don't have down a single negative note on KJ.
I'll review grape, I don't really have a read at all on him. In the meantime, there's plenty of room on the Az wagon!
I have no problem pushing along the Az wagon, but I think he is at five or six votes. I would rather some attention be paid to Grapefruit first since he has been flying under the radar for most of the game.
vote azrael
Will hopefully read everything tomorrow, although shadow/chris became hard to chew through.
• Rhand - Strong mindmeld for most the game. I will be surprised if he's scum.
• KittyCupCake - Strong overall solving mentality. I want to take another look at her Chris vote that someone pointed out, but also will be surprised if she's scum.
• vezokpiraka - Likely town by claim.
• killjoy - Pretty strong town lean for how he responded to wagon pressure.
• dkingsland967 - Pretty pure posting in general, and I liked his last two posts (especially 729) for their thought progression. Dkings, why is your vote still on Beeboy after that, though? EWP: I don't understand why people are so ok with half-wagons this game, but even if you don't want to vote Az, why no Grape vote?
• Lastwhisper r. Syrenz - If Az flips scum, good chance she's town. 626 pinged me for the lack of critical thought on voting KCC (just barning Grape), but the admission of that choice probably doesn't come from scum. That, and multiple posts I've noticed like 680 where she's trying to get a player (in this case, Chris) to examine their own motivations make her a good town lean.
• Vaimes - Recent posts have felt like predominantly snarky one-liners, but with intent. In this half-wagon happy environment where there are wagons on Az, Shadow, Tom, and Chris, him being unconcerned about making waves is probably more likely to come from town. Vaimes, you never answered me: why did you "superlike" 256?
• Grapefruit21 - Felt like his posts have had conviction, haven't felt like he's being manipulative or seeking an agenda. Lean town. Grape, can you walk me through your process on 613-615? Specifically the vote on Tom followed by the shift to Shadow? As for my vote on Az, it's primarily for the way he went about attacking Syrenz.
• beeboy - I've liked a lot of his recent posts, mild town lean. Beeboy, say that Shadow is off the table and you also can't generate enough interest in Tom; who would you want to lunch?
• Axelrod - I agree that if he's scum then there's a good chance that both Shadow and Chris are town, but the only thing I find questionable about 702 is that it sounds like he's trying to be impartial, but that's only if I squint, and that could also completely come from town, especially since he ran out of time. I've liked--or haven't disliked--most of his posts, though. Lean town.
• tomsloger - Hasn't really posted since I last weighed in, still think it's possible he was trying to avoid NK before determining that game was role madness, I'll reassess after he catches up.
• Sir Chris - I'm a little gunshy here. There are posts I've liked and posts I haven't, but nothing that feels outside his town behavior in Hill House. He shouldn't be in my null pile, but right now that's where I'm at.
• Fuwa - Early game innocence, but lack of content is frustrating. 590 is the kind of post I always want to read into but it's probably nothing. Null, need more content.
• shadowlancerx - There have been lots of little things that make me question him. Recently 703 and one other post that I can't quickly find pinged me as Shadow hiding in the grey areas, but re-reading 703 it doesn't feel that strongly to me now. I'll have to find that other post. Really want to town read him for his "you're not lunching me toDay" assertiveness, but we also both just came out of Hill House, where town!Silver did the same thing. Just on the scum side of null.
• Azrael - Attack on Syrenz feels malicious and intended as a trap. Frustrated that his acknowledgement of that being a bad attack makes me feel like maybe I'm just not playing at his level.
That is...a whole lot of townreads, and I didn't really expect Shadow to be my only other scum read beside Az. Chances that the scum team is exactly four of Tom/Chris/Fuwa/Shadow/Az are probably very low.
People should ask me questions so I can re-engage/re-assess.
Also, Last is male.
Also, regarding your Axel read, I agree that his wall post did come off as trying to be impartial but not really, but I think that’s just confirmation bias.
Vote Grapefruit
You don't want to throw your vote around just anywhere, but you threw it on a wagon that you didn't want to happen? Like I said there were other options than just Shadow or Az at that stage.
I'll take another look for that. That's opposite to my recollection of Az (I felt he was actively trying to make a splash see: the LW votes) but I can see the less prolific thing but that's basically just activity.
@DK you'll have to explain to me why it's impossible to have a buddy read between two players while having a town read on one of them. Also I don't understand your problem with me liking KJ taking you out of his pool. It's entirely possible to think someone is showing right process and reaching exactly the wrong conclusions. KJ has been utterly lacking malice, doesn't mean I think his reads are gospel.
@Cantrip Tom's vote on Beeboy was really bad. Shadow's was pretty bad. I voted tom before realizing where the wagons were. I'd still rather push tom than Shadow but I think we have decent chances with both of them. I'll go back and check the Syrenz push. His 545 is very underwhelming (and fits Vaimes point actually).
So yeah, while I approve of your pressure on Grape, I’d be happier if we could run Az to claim range and assess from there.
Oh, I didn't dislike that in a "I think this is scum motivated" way, but in a "no, what are you doing?" kinda way.
I don't know about all four, but I like your odds on being more than half right.
There are 3 people I have a strong enough read on that I'd be willing to vote here. Az is one of them. I wasn't saying I was against an Az wagon happening, I just have enough experience with him that I wasn't excited about having to do it. If I'm right about Chris, I'm sure I'll hold the same sentiment there in the future.
@dk/shadow: I'm getting a pretty strong town read on grape. I'm really not interested in pushing that way today. And I disagree on your Az/grape read, I don't think scumAz makes analysis like that on a buddy in those circumstances.
Wait, what?
Wisp, preferred pronouns? I thought from Phantom...?
Ok...you think they're w/w, then?
I'd appreciate you looking at Az's Syrenz push. Which point of Vaimes do you feel 545 fits?
Can you go into details on that grape read?
@cantrip
I don't really care tbh,, but yes I am a guy
I am waffling on you and shadow because I honestly don't know, right now I am reading you on a micro anaylsis, and shadow on a macro read based on his overall content
Yes there are probably bad posts i can pick out from both of you atm, but I'm not worried about your slots atm, since if you are both town, I would argue lynching either of you is quite bad
Take "I would like to think" very loosely though
Don't really know where else I would place my vote at though currently
For example, post 227 that dk pointed out. It's a bit of a headache to wind back through the post chain it references, but it's based on a subtle interaction between dk and vaimes in RVS. DK doesn't think grape should hold vaimes as independently townie, while also considering a dk/vaimes scum team. I don't see a problem there, I make notes like that all the time. And the fact that grape noticed that odd RVS exchange and thought about what could have caused it is a huge point in favor of grape actually trying to figure things out.
And I see a ton of that in his posts: signs of genuine hunting and nothing that jumps out to the contrary.
Vote Count 1.21
Azrael (6): Cantripmancer, shadowlancerx, KittyCupCake, Vaimes, Lastwhisper, Rhand
shadowlancerx (5): Sir Chris, Azrael, killjoy, beeboy, Grapefruit21
Sir Chris (2): Fuwa, vezokpiraka
tomsloger (1): Axelrod
beeboy (1): tomsloger
Grapefruit21 (1): dkingsland967
Abstain (0)
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
Fuwa V/LA until deadline
Lastwhisper V/LA until deadline
My problem with your response to Killjoy is that it’s a good illustration of a larger pattern: your reads have no conviction. You haven’t tried to push them at all; rather you have asked different players for their opinions.
As for the Vaimes/me thing, see below (because multi-quote on mobile is a nightmare).
You’re misunderstanding my issue here.
I have no problem with Grape’s question, or with him seeing a potential pair, or even having an independent scum read on me. I keep notes on stuff like that as well. Example: I commented in the thread that due to interactions around the wagon, I could see Tom’s vote on KJ as a bus vote. However, that’s something that only holds up if KJ is scum, so it isn’t clouding my reads right now.
Where I see an issue is that the only reason Grape has articulated in this entire thread for his scum read on me is that pairing. So Grape still listing me as a top scum read while thinking Vaimes is town doesn’t track.
Dkings, I went rogue on an Az wagon of one to make a point and attempt to force Az to explain (look how well that worked out... But the wagon grew, so it's all good). You've explained your read on Grape and he's responding to you. What good does your singular vote on Grape at this point accomplish? Come apply pressure to Az.