I don't need anything terribly complex when so many people seem town to me atm.
Plus town Tom has indulged a lot worse than this current game from em as town. Him saying 'fake read' a lot is like "uh huh."
Why do people keep saying things aren't real reads geesh <_<.
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Then he will not shoot me, because Tom can read me. Tom will shoot dkings if he is town.
Or Tom will shoot someone else that he is scum reading. Stop creating a false dichotomy.
We will see
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@chris
I mean u can go find all the games where Tom has correctly read you, but it's unconformable as it stands, and it just feels like you a throwing w/e hot air you can
I think once I am dead the amount of people townier than Tom will make him a natural lynch tbh
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Explain more on what you felt was one of the better pieces of info we learned from how you treated the Az wagon? And ftr, I don't feel like you've lacked contribution, but I certainly haven't seen much in the way of scumhunting or world building, especially toDay, which feels like a contrast to Hill House.
So, two people who I think really improved their standing in the game at large are Axel and Fuwa. Fuwa was just someone who was doing nothing but by forcing that train it really polarized their alignment in relation to Az. That being scum/scum seems kind of absurd to think about given the velocity of movement and also I have to believe Fuwa is the one that takes the fall there if it was scum/scum due to player reputation.
This is true. I'm the type that would sacrifice myself for the better players.
FUWA
(Lost my quote formatting in a tragic preview before posting accident. Not finding them again)
"I also have a tugging feeling that Azrael is town."
"Cantripmancer » Fuwa, haven't heard from you for a bit; Chris's wagon has faltered. Who else do you want to pressure? (Could it be....Azrael?)
"Most likely shadow actually. I like Azrael's posts, but others made pretty convincing points against him too... so I'm just gonna observe how his train goes. I don't feel like joining it, nor am I against it.""
These are the only posts about azrael really.
(Theres also saying she'll vote az for self pres and doing so, but think that act is just correct play regardless of her alignment so meh)
First quote was real early, and in a pile of reads that are mostly fine
Second quote ive stared at multiple times
In the moment, it felt like forcing a comment on the wagon, and during that popin the only things she seemed to know from the game was that az was a wagon and that someone called her lurky-inexperienced scum... theres a few other reads and goes for a wording "gotcha", but nothing else she posts shows any indication shes read the game to actually know the points against him are good
Acknowledging peoples points itself is... well not more likely to come from a buddy per se but if fuwa is scum more likely to be about a buddy if that makes sense
The claim: "Rb
Neighbour
Watcher"
Likely true-ish regardless of alignment
+scum abilities overall but not by a huge amount
Probably +town claiming it after az and vezok just because... like wut
This post is pretty towny "I'm not seeing what you're checking here, yes, I felt the post was town, because I think pushing someone for whatever reason even though weak is pretty townish, especially at early stage, him admitting it was weak was better. But I didn't like that he unvoted while thinking KJ is still scum, and having no one he's going to push. That doesn't change my read that KJ is scum. It just makes my read on Axel not as strong.
I don't understand what I'm replying to. I feel like all I did was repeating myself.
Could you perhaps rephrase that?"
Believable process
Hate her cantrip push but its more bad and playstyle-clash-y than scummy
Like this one too "Vote Grapefruit
1. I think KJ is scum and his defense of KJ reeks of scum. (I'm not voting KJ coz I have nothing to add besides vote, may vote EoD though)
2. He's voting for Axel, that I think is townish. I don't see how Axel is more opportunistic than anyone else on the wagon. Not being able to read Shadow is one thing, not trying is another.
3. He ignored me.
4. I don't have a fourth reason actually."
Overall... eh?
Some fluff, a few posts i like, and a scummy eod popin
I plan on fleshing out Chris/Fuwa/Cantrip over the coming days, dont really feel obligated to rush right now, and my work schedule isnt helping
#1661
makes no sense from a town perspective, feels like some fake TWTBAW attempt
also this whole "im not a good player" mindset is just a mentality thing from her, she knows how to play town well enough, but whats strong is her wolf game, she is one of the better wolves from my homesite, knows how to keep her composure, make fake content, and manipulate
the same goes to her, "I didn't use my shot", stating it outright looks good, but I can't see why as a town she wouldn't use it
FoS: Fuwa
Chris's read of Tom is still garbage btw, and reachy as hell
I'd probably giggle if it turned out to be true (a rehash of #1623), but ya, no thanks
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@Cantrip Just during the (following) day. If I were to neighbourized anyone, I get a private chat with them for the entirety of the following day.
@Grapefruit I didn't neighbourize anyone
My "KCC is town" thing came from her vote.
@Vaimes I didn't use my shot
So why did you in response to a question about your role reply by saying that KCC is town? Town reading KCC is a thing. And choosing to keep your role hidden is a thing. But pretending you're explaining your role giving when you're making a read on KCC isn't a thing.
I just want Chris dead so I don't have to read his weird tom is scum fanfic.
Right now I have a town core, with some scum reads and a lot of nulls and a few crazy possible teams.
I have this sneaking suspicion that Canteip might be scum, but nothing to support it. Grape is doing grape stuff and that makes me think he is town. Usually as scum, he'd have help from his buddies to not make theae werid posts.
Also tom is now heavily in the town core. This is not scum tom and I'm willing to lay my life on that read.
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Tom crept through the halls, his scum scarf hidden firmly under his town tunic as he eyed the targets he was meant to deceive. At last they had fallen prey to his machinations. Soon they would realize their folly, but the poison would course through their veins and strangle any revelations they may have from being uttered from their lips before they parted from the world of the living. First, however, Tom knew he could kill one in plain sight. He knew one would fall to the ground and if he chose correctly he would be celebrated as a hero, even if it would be revealed them to be town. It was better that way, they would say.
Tom agreed. It was, indeed, better that way.
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Anyway it is 5:15 am and my WIM has oddly come back to me in epic force.
So, I am just going to wipe my slate clean and go through everyone’s ISO until I think someone does something alignment determining and note it down. I have allowed whimsical Chris to roam to free and I crave greater accuracy.
Tom - Post 777 Tom tilts his head at Az and asks him about me and Wisp. In his next post, 799, he agrees with shadow on an Az wagon and says ‘choo choo.’ In 811 Cantripmancer is quoted reminding Tom he did mention Last’s previous slot, and Tom concedes this but notes the tldr does not make sense and keeps his vote on Az. Later on he makes a nuanced point that the power difference in vezok vs. Az makes a v/v pairing unlikely. I like all of this. I also like the vote on dkings. Okay I was wrong Tom is probably town dayvig, interesting.
Dkingsland967 - His first real post was to ask Az why he frowned at rhand but did the same thing towards KCC. I am intrigued. Attacks his Grapefruit read. Notes along with Vezok and Shadow previously that KJ threw a lot of shade but did not place a vote. Which indeed is usually quite poor. Later asks Az to explain frowns.
I want to lynch one of Azrael or Grapefruit.
I mentioned in one of my first posts that Az *frowned* at Rhand for his RVS vote when his was a literal carbon copy. Az has barely directly engaged anyone, he has mostly only answered questions that have been directly asked of him, and frequently with quick snarky responses. He's throwing snipes like *frowns* and *narrows eyes* and outright refuses to extrapolate on his reads when asked. Also, something bothers me about post 311... Rhand asked for a recent scum game, and Azrael returns with a huge list of completed games (most of which are town wins). It reads to me like overcompensating to a large degree. And I find myself still in agreement with Rhand about Azrael's way-too-quick-and-confident early town read on Grape, which makes a lot more sense if he's trying to town-clear his buddy.
I encourage everyone to ISO Grape and examine his progression through his reads. It's textbook scum behavior. Early in the game he grabbed onto something Vaimes had asked me about my mafia activity as evidence of a Vaimes/DK scum pairing. Then in post 227 he mentions that Vaimes is independently townie, while in the very same post answering my question toward him about his claim of Vaimes and me potentially being buddies. He also uses passive language to diminish the significance of the observation when he says it is "Super flimsy but not nothing". Shortly after this, he has Vaimes in his town pile and me in his top scum reads, without ever offering another reason for why I am scum other than the "super flimsy but not nothing" Vaimes thing.
In his assessment of Killjoy, Grape mentioned he loved the way KJ narrowed down his list to take me off. If I'm one of Grape's top two scum reads, why did he not try to convince KJ that he's wrong? Instead he just complemented the process and acknowledged the results.
He also asked a few people why they didn't agree with his Axel read from the Killjoy wagon, and promptly dropped it.
Another red flag for me: Grape tried to warn off everyone from town-reading shadow early in the game, but then later proceeded to ask Shadow why their reads lists were not lining up. In a later post he said he was not interested in voting Shadow "yet". He also tried to needle someone (I think Vaimes, but it might have been Cantrip) about Shadow's "gross" comment from the early game. It's like he is trying to put it out there in a subtle manner that Shadow might be scum, but doesn't want to get his hands dirty. Note that he waited to vote Shadow until a bunch of other players did.
Grape's vote on tom in 613 is virtually naked, especially when he had recently asked Vaimes why tom was scum.
tl;dr: Grape is scum half-assing his reads, which is why he isn't doing a good job of keeping them straight and consistent, and why he has also been trying to find someone to agree with his reads that don't align with the more vocal players in the game.
Right. I just flat out believe Dkings when he says that he doesn’t like that Az picked out certain games. That is… an insane detail to pick up on if you’re bussing your buddy. Like that is legitimately a next level type of bus that would astound me.
Beeboy - He doesn’t have the pro ‘die Az die’ equity as the above two posters, but in a vacuum of his ISO the way he expresses suspicion of someone like Shadow who has a consistent scum read of him is egocentrically town to me. Rhand as well. It’s more of a lean then the above two for sure but gosh that is just uncommon for scum to go “hold on there, I thought you were town but you just won’t stop no matter what I say.” Although the way he phrases things gives me a bad vibe and Rhand being the night kill when Rhand kept trying to stab him makes his scum equity go up a little bit, as I am a big believer in listening to dead town whenever possible if their opinions haven’t been made obsolete with new information. Him saying he’d try to be more active for me and Wisp seemed so wholesome too, though. Near the end when he is talking about Shadow… I agree with him. Shadow’s defenses were really poor at the time, as either alignment. Him being frustrated at “shadow isn’t being lynched today” being an actual defense instead of the conclusion of a defense makes sense to me from a town profile. He even gets in Wisp’s face about arbitrary reasons. He seems kind of pissed. He also thought Az’ claim made sense, well… won’t be a hypocrite there lol. I guess we’ll see how my re-read goes with the new owner of this slot and how everything else goes.
Megiddo - Voted KCC. I like him already. But he doesn’t have much to go on, but I do enjoy that he has Denny Crane as his Avatar and I have Alan Shore, so that’s pretty great.
Vezok - If literally nothing else, Vezok goes from trying to spike my head day one to pouncing on Az. Then there’s the whole counterclaim business and the way he announced his conditional and… yeah, Vezok is pretty town right now and above consideration.
Killjoy - 154 he posts a lot of reads and boy people are right when they say it is a common scum error that they don’t drop their vote when doing stuff like this. He clearly should have cast a Tom vote here as that was the conclusion of this post to me clearly - he even singled out Tom as “more likely” so what’s the point of not voting here?
Because at current none of them are more likely scum than the others. Tom's closest because 148 but he's also Tom who would absolutely make that Post as town as well.]
When Shadow asks him why he didn’t vote. I have, I don’t think, ever thought to myself ‘I have a few scum reads, eh, let’s not vote any of them.”
[quote]No, you're wrong. It was bad. Is 'bad' too subjective? The wagon on me is obviously scum driven. That's why I jumped into analysis mode immediately. It's likely not dk for a few reasons, most of which have been said. But then the next three people just /barned dk. Like... come on. This is obvious. Scum latched onto town dk and is trying to push me dead.
This feels… very forced. He goes from 1-2 scum on him to “scum driven” with no real logic. Then he goes for the classic “Want me to just ignore the thread? Huh? Do you?”
Skipping ahead a bit I look for Az mentions and we have ooe here.
Shadow is currently my top scumread. I disagree with his beeboy read, and he made a couple posts I highlighted as really scummy,
My second is... Last. I haven't said anything about this read yet, but Last doesn't feel like town last. He's not... quite as vocal as he usually is, nor as... idk town. I ALWAYS end up catching town Last. And I haven't yet.
As for a third... I don't really have a hard read on this spot. I will say I would like to see more from Vaimes, and I still want to read up on Fuwa's games.
Honorable mention to Az solely for the reason I feel like he's not looking for/finding enough town. My interpretation of his play is that's kinda how he plays. And I'm not seeing that.
This immediately sets off alarms because his mention of Az feels a lot more concrete than Vaimes, doesn’t it? He doesn’t have a read on slot three but he wants Vaimes to post more, which is OK in a vacuum not everyone develops strong reads, but thinking Az is playing a bit off of his town meta is obviously more concerning than that. I actually don’t understand the thinking process that leads KJ to think of putting Vaimes over Az here. Which could be a good look for Wisp if KJ is scum because it may be that KJ felt nervous about only having three town in this post. Maybe, not sure on that one.
Then after this, after he lists 4 players he thinks are potentially scummy he doesn’t quite defend Az but is all like “I just don’t get it.” He eventually votes Az without giving any legitimate effort to convince people otherwise. He asks a lot but then just goes ‘guess we should vote him’ when Az is clearly cooked by other people’s efforts. Also no vote today either. KJ doesn’t really seem to care too much about pushing his reads, just stating them a lot.
Okay I am actually pretty glad I finally got someone I think was scummy from this, I was starting to worry I would town read everyone and panic.
Fuwa - Early on has a ‘tugging feeling’ Az is town, which I like a bit actually as it would be a strange way to interact early with a buddy. Calls out KJ quite quickly, which I also like a lot if KJ does indeed flip scum. Not a lot of content day one from Fuwa really, unfortunately. Wagonomics favor this slot being town, and if KJ is scum the way KJ ripped into shadow for going after Fuwa is almost always white knighting town I’d think.
I will finish this later. I have much to ponder still.
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One thing I will say is if you shoot dkings and he flips scum I will have my suspicion of you vanish, because he has said a few things that have bothered me (especially as it relates to the viability of a fuwa shot but also how he seems to live in a 'assume fuwa is town world' for his reads on other people) so I will be interested to see if perhaps this is a giant misunderstanding.
I don't love the way you're weaponizing your read on Tom to try to force the direction of his shot.
And FTR, while I concede Fuwa may not be the single best shot choice, I still think she's fair game.
Do I think she is more likely to be town than scum? Yes, because counterwagon and the way Az clammed up.
I guess it's a theory difference, but I think a vig's job is to eliminate scummy players who are probably going to get lynched at some point, even if they aren't particularly likely to be scum. If town, it removes a "good" mislynch from the PoE pool and increases the amount of effort the scum team has to put in on future day phases. If they turn out to actually be scum, it's a cherry on top.
And I do believe Fuwa is likely to be lynched at some point, barring a slam dunk "Nope not lynching that" claim. There are more than a few people who still believe she is scum into D2, plus there will always be the lingering question of did she try to fall on a grenade for her JoaT teammate?
I also think Megiddo is a good shot choice, for some of the same reasoning. Beeboy was pretty iffy D1, had a fair amount of suspicion come his way, and his "falling for the claim" comment on Az was... weird. Also, Megiddo's lack of engagement kinda smells like a player who replaced in hoping to dive into the game, saw their scum role PM, and got bummed out.
Because he is re-evaluating stuff and coming to reasonable conclusions. It just seems like a townie mindset.
Tom is town mostly due to meta. It's almost impossible to read tom in the early days, but as scum he is manipulative and tries to lead the town astray. He isn't doing that here. Also if he actually shoots someone as a day vig I won't really soubt that read until lylo.
I remembered I didn't explain why I think shooting fast is best. A day vig is the most powerful ability and just using it is great. Last time someone didn't use his daykill, scum stole it and won the game.
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Because he is re-evaluating stuff and coming to reasonable conclusions. It just seems like a townie mindset.
I'm having trouble following some of this in a TownChris world. The last few hours would have been along the lines of
Chris: Tom is scum, if he shoots me, lynch him.
Chris: My read isn't garbage!
*Throws temper tantrum*
*Nothing changes*
*Hmm.. should I actually read Tom's post?*
Chris: Oh, yeah, my read was garbage
-Like, I'm all for reevaluating, but why scream for Tom's lynch like that without going through his posts at all first? That seems backwards to me
Because he is re-evaluating stuff and coming to reasonable conclusions. It just seems like a townie mindset.
I'm having trouble following some of this in a TownChris world. The last few hours would have been along the lines of
Chris: Tom is scum, if he shoots me, lynch him.
Chris: My read isn't garbage!
*Throws temper tantrum*
*Nothing changes*
*Hmm.. should I actually read Tom's post?*
Chris: Oh, yeah, my read was garbage
-Like, I'm all for reevaluating, but why scream for Tom's lynch like that without going through his posts at all first? That seems backwards to me
The read changed without posts in between. That points to Chris actually reading my post, realising that maybe his read is wrong and re-evaluating and finding out stuff that makes him question his read.
Also I kinda empathise with absolute reads that get changed easily. I also do this, because if you are floundering on a read nobody is going to follow you onto it. If I say "Chris seems scummy" people will just ignore it, but if I say "Chris' head should be put on a pike and paraded around town to show other scum what will happen to them" makes people listen even if my read is the same. So I don't really blame Chris for using the same strategy.
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Also I kinda empathise with absolute reads that get changed easily. I also do this, because if you are floundering on a read nobody is going to follow you onto it. If I say "Chris seems scummy" people will just ignore it, but if I say "Chris' head should be put on a pike and paraded around town to show other scum what will happen to them" makes people listen even if my read is the same. So I don't really blame Chris for using the same strategy.
Okay, I could maybe see that, but then, this post:
Like I am active, I am answering questions, I am trying to solve, and it is like "lol doesn't matter."
I believe the frustration is real here. But what's the town motivation for this then? Is it because people want to shoot him? -but he knows he is one of the better targets. Is it because people aren't following his Tom read? -an exaggerated read that's based on a single iffy eod post and no deeper reading of anything else he's done? I just don't see it, where is this frustration coming from?
But as a wolf, this reads like: I'm covered in wool, I've got this fancy sheep mask, I'm baaing, why isn't this working? What do I need to do?!
Actually, her calling for be to be shot is probably +town because why waste such an easy mislynch?
Her being KCC obvs.
you kinda fell off, and I noticed most of your reads dont have oomph to them
Where are you at right now, you said you were going to read through the thread
also, calling yourself an easy mislynch is just weird, and definitely not +town points
I wanna just ignore that wall post, I can barely even analyze Chris' posts
does wolf!Chris re-evaluate Tom just like that, yes
could town!Chris also do it, yes
People calling themselves an easy mislunch is exactly 0% wolfy. Everyone who struggles to project town does it. Or if they're in a situation where their lunch would be very easy to justify, then you can get a better read off the people who don't pursue that lunch.
This game seems like a circlejerk of people under suspicion busting out a bunch of wallposts and everyone else going "waaaah, so town!"
Wagons have completely stalled because we're waiting until tom kills someone to move forward. Everything else just sounds like white noise to me. If anything, I think Chris looks a little better and tom looks worse, but that's literally it.
People calling themselves an easy mislunch is exactly 0% wolfy. Everyone who struggles to project town does it. Or if they're in a situation where their lunch would be very easy to justify, then you can get a better read off the people who don't pursue that lunch.
if anything its more NAI, but I guess I never had to worry about that since I have never once been mislynched in my entire mafia career except one game, where a fake red check was put on me by a wolf, though I do like to claim it a lot, so sure, I guess, but in his case it doesn't feel genuine as his content overall points more towards a wolf than town
And what do you mean, "some kind of gate" re: cop checks?
You think I'm town, but if I said I have mechanical confirmation that tom is scum then you wouldn't believe me. I see a problem with that.
based on your personality, I would more likely believe it is an FPS sorta play, by hard cop checks, I mean alignment cops, which I very rarely see in MTGS games, unless there is some kind of catch to using them, or activating them, I guess a one-shot could be a thing, but alignment cops are still super swingy, and I wouldn't really call that being gated
Every player was voting in the final votecount, and it's incredily unlikely the entire scum team was bussing Azrael at the end of the day. It's a virtual lock there is scum within the group that stayed on Fuwa (+ Beeboy).
Tom himself is in that group, and vezok is clearly off the table. The shot should be taken from within the group of four players not voting for Azrael here.
Side note: Regarding Chris's theory that Tom is scum and gained a day kill from the Azrael lynch, it's worth noting he wasn't on it. Vezok claimed he has to actually participate in a town lynch to unlock an ability, so the idea of them balancing each other out is DOA.
And what do you mean, "some kind of gate" re: cop checks?
You think I'm town, but if I said I have mechanical confirmation that tom is scum then you wouldn't believe me. I see a problem with that.
based on your personality, I would more likely believe it is an FPS sorta play, by hard cop checks, I mean alignment cops, which I very rarely see in MTGS games, unless there is some kind of catch to using them, or activating them, I guess a one-shot could be a thing, but alignment cops are still super swingy, and I wouldn't really call that being gated
The thing Vaimes quoted was what I said "What??" to in my earlier post.
In a 7-12 player game, maybe. And maybe things have changed dramatically in the last two years or so, but from what I recall of games this size on MTGS, they almost always have a limited-shot alignment cop at a minimum.
When did people start referring to "Lynch" as "Lunch?" Is this a PC thing? Am I just not with the times here? It kind of bugs me.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Where is my frustration coming from? I don't like rudeness, KCC. find you to be very grating to play with. I don't enjoy being told my reads are 'bad fanfic' from Vezok either. I don't like getting the sense that others think that I am just ******* around when really I am pushing things and trying to see how things unfold. I feel very disrespected this game not as a player, but as a person. And don't be further read by dismissing this as AtE. I am not asking a single god damn person to town read me based on this, I don't care if you scum read me on an emotional level it is the game, it is how people have talked to me that I just am bothered by. I won't hide that fact.
Vig is supposed to shoot scum, by the way. That's the job. Dkings. Not scummy. But scum. People say to shoot in the common PoE to justify if they are wrong, but I have never seen anyone complain when someone does a hero move and hits the power wolf. Just awkward when they are wrong.
I threw no temper tantrums, btw KCC. I did not scream. I pushed. Asking people to give reads on situations, see reactions, attempting to gain an understanding, is not a temper tantrum.
Side note: Regarding Chris's theory that Tom is scum and gained a day kill from the Azrael lynch, it's worth noting he wasn't on it. Vezok claimed he has to actually participate in a town lynch to unlock an ability, so the idea of them balancing each other out is DOA.
This isn't valid, things don't have to perfectly match in this way and it is possible other people have something similar to Vezok.
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Where is my frustration coming from? I don't like rudeness, KCC.
Have I been rude, or have I simply refused to place you on a pedestal? You know, your main defense this game has been "Those points are invalid because I'm so amazing. Look at my immaculate record and awards!" And yeah, no, I really don't care. -If I think you're wrong I'm going to tell you, and if I think you're scum, I'm going to lynch you. And you really shouldn't feel personally aggrieved by that. It's not about you.
If you're town, you can show me post game where you felt I crossed a line, and I will definitely truly be interested in having that discussion with you, but until then, you'll have to excuse me if I take this all with a grain of salt.
I mean it's what I originally said, it kinda just feels like a thought you made because you could not a genuine read? I am having trouble explaining this but you know how as you play this game more regardless of your alignment you sometimes just see things and you know what to say sort of instinctively. That's what it felt like to me and then you just took it up a few scales and made it a town read.
rhand calls out part of this read for being what it was against and the response
I think Rhand is town he had 1 podt liked which I can find later and.i also don't mind his scum read on me? His reasoning isn't wrong I didn't know how fast this game would gen content so I pushed something I was neutral on (shadow) and I think spotting that was townie.
That's honestly going to persuade me to vote Az a lot faster because the only reason I don't want to vote him is because I don't want to easily give up a wagon in compromise of the wagonee's preferred wagon.
Hypothetically if Az flips scum is being quickly ok with a claim from a player who I know will likely die and flip scum given people are already criticizing the claim at the time of my post really the easy and intuitive thing to do as scum?
Actually, her calling for be to be shot is probably +town because why waste such an easy mislynch?
Her being KCC obvs.
you kinda fell off, and I noticed most of your reads dont have oomph to them
Where are you at right now, you said you were going to read through the thread
also, calling yourself an easy mislynch is just weird, and definitely not +town points
Have you never played with me before? Literally everything in this post is well within my play. Not even alignment specific play, just my play. I'm also an easy mislynch in about 90% of games I play... the exception being usually when I go kinda off the rails with some theory on someone's alignment which comes off as really pure (and is always wrong).
But you've played enough games with me to know that you saying that me being an easy mislynch is weird is just plain wrong. You KNOW better, This post can't be real. I think you're scum. Vote Last
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Shadow's 28 declares vezok town for saying he needed to be on the lynch wagon, which is very out of nowhere hot-takey. There's no obvious alignment indication from it, it's just I'm feeling he's making that determination early with little supporting info. It's weak I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Ooh. Cantrip's 31 see's this ^^^^, but doesn't question why he's town, just why it's gross. I highlight this because that wasn't my reaction to this, and I feel like there's more that one reason vezok's statement could make him town. I'm just wondering why he didn't ask.
Shadow's 33 answers this with an answer that makes snese. He also answers why it makes him town (which again wasn't asked) which probably means Shadow does not suspect Cantrip of being scum as of then. This could be relevant if Shadow is suddenyl scumreading Cantrip at some point soon/ says he's been suspecting him a while etc.
Cantrip's 38... it says Cantrip agrees with shadow that it makes Vez likely town than not, but then goes on to say he thought shadow was shading Vez with the 'gross' comment. Cantrip then asks Shadow why he would "apply a descriptor that paints Vez's action in a negative light if you think he's town?" which i feel is a weird question. It's one of those questions that digs so deep it kind of surpasses the intent of the post. I never thought gross meant scummy, and shadow confirmed that. This question assumes all words with a negative connotation as being connected with scumminess (which I don't think is true). Cantrip then follows this with a question that basically amounts to "how likely do you think Vez is to be scum based on what he did". These questions feel a bit disconnected, especially since he said earlier that he agreed that Vez was likely town.I'm having trouble following the process that started in the second paragraph and ended in the last one.
Shadow answers, but it's pretty standard.
Everything else on this page also pretty standard.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Actually, her calling for be to be shot is probably +town because why waste such an easy mislynch?
Her being KCC obvs.
you kinda fell off, and I noticed most of your reads dont have oomph to them
Where are you at right now, you said you were going to read through the thread
also, calling yourself an easy mislynch is just weird, and definitely not +town points
Have you never played with me before? Literally everything in this post is well within my play. Not even alignment specific play, just my play. I'm also an easy mislynch in about 90% of games I play... the exception being usually when I go kinda off the rails with some theory on someone's alignment which comes off as really pure (and is always wrong).
But you've played enough games with me to know that you saying that me being an easy mislynch is weird is just plain wrong. You KNOW better, This post can't be real. I think you're scum. Vote Last
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
when you said you were rereading I didnt expect a play by play of every page, I feel like you are nitpicking at little things, take for example this
Quote from Killjoy »
Shadow's 28 declares vezok town for saying he needed to be on the lynch wagon, which is very out of nowhere hot-takey. There's no obvious alignment indication from it, it's just I'm feeling he's making that determination early with little supporting info. It's weak I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Vezok can be town because, there isnt much of a world where he makes that claim if its not real, unless hes being coached by a stronger player, and even then its unluckly
he also as a wolf he doesnt outright state anything that will put him in the limelight, especially not this
Ooh. Cantrip's 31 see's this ^^^^, but doesn't question why he's town, just why it's gross. I highlight this because that wasn't my reaction to this, and I feel like there's more that one reason vezok's statement could make him town. I'm just wondering why he didn't ask.
so is there is or is there not a reason to think hes town from his claim?
these contradictions are why I dont believe your reads are real, and that vote is reachy, and there's always no way for me to rebuttal it, since I have no memory of much of your posts from past games
also its a poor omgus
maybe I should humor you as mislynch bait as you say, your posts are obviously scummy, if you are town
why shouldnt I vote you right now? Whats the towniest thing you've done this game?
I don't need anything terribly complex when so many people seem town to me atm.
Plus town Tom has indulged a lot worse than this current game from em as town. Him saying 'fake read' a lot is like "uh huh."
Why do people keep saying things aren't real reads geesh <_<.
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We will see
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So, that is it.
I mean, I can kinda imagine a scum motive for making that post, but I can't at all rule that out as a town post.
If he shoots you, and you flip town, I'm not pursuing him based on that, sorry.
Vote Count 2.3
tomsloger (3): Axelrod, Sir Chris, Vaimes
Killjoy (2): dkingsland967, vezokpiraka
Sir Chris (2): Cantripmancer, Lastwhisper
KittyCupCake (1): Megiddo
Abstain (7): tomsloger, Fuwa, Killjoy, KittyCupCake, shadowlancerx, Grapefruit21, Grapefruit21
With 14 alive, it takes 8 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Sunday, September 1st, at 11:59 PM.
I mean u can go find all the games where Tom has correctly read you, but it's unconformable as it stands, and it just feels like you a throwing w/e hot air you can
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@Grapefruit I didn't neighbourize anyone
My "KCC is town" thing came from her vote.
@Vaimes I didn't use my shot
(Lost my quote formatting in a tragic preview before posting accident. Not finding them again)
"I also have a tugging feeling that Azrael is town."
"Cantripmancer » Fuwa, haven't heard from you for a bit; Chris's wagon has faltered. Who else do you want to pressure? (Could it be....Azrael?)
"Most likely shadow actually. I like Azrael's posts, but others made pretty convincing points against him too... so I'm just gonna observe how his train goes. I don't feel like joining it, nor am I against it.""
These are the only posts about azrael really.
(Theres also saying she'll vote az for self pres and doing so, but think that act is just correct play regardless of her alignment so meh)
First quote was real early, and in a pile of reads that are mostly fine
Second quote ive stared at multiple times
In the moment, it felt like forcing a comment on the wagon, and during that popin the only things she seemed to know from the game was that az was a wagon and that someone called her lurky-inexperienced scum... theres a few other reads and goes for a wording "gotcha", but nothing else she posts shows any indication shes read the game to actually know the points against him are good
Acknowledging peoples points itself is... well not more likely to come from a buddy per se but if fuwa is scum more likely to be about a buddy if that makes sense
The claim:
"Rb
Neighbour
Watcher"
Likely true-ish regardless of alignment
+scum abilities overall but not by a huge amount
Probably +town claiming it after az and vezok just because... like wut
This post is pretty towny
"I'm not seeing what you're checking here, yes, I felt the post was town, because I think pushing someone for whatever reason even though weak is pretty townish, especially at early stage, him admitting it was weak was better. But I didn't like that he unvoted while thinking KJ is still scum, and having no one he's going to push. That doesn't change my read that KJ is scum. It just makes my read on Axel not as strong.
I don't understand what I'm replying to. I feel like all I did was repeating myself.
Could you perhaps rephrase that?"
Believable process
Hate her cantrip push but its more bad and playstyle-clash-y than scummy
Like this one too
"Vote Grapefruit
1. I think KJ is scum and his defense of KJ reeks of scum. (I'm not voting KJ coz I have nothing to add besides vote, may vote EoD though)
2. He's voting for Axel, that I think is townish. I don't see how Axel is more opportunistic than anyone else on the wagon. Not being able to read Shadow is one thing, not trying is another.
3. He ignored me.
4. I don't have a fourth reason actually."
Overall... eh?
Some fluff, a few posts i like, and a scummy eod popin
Slightly less likely to shoot than i was before
#1661
makes no sense from a town perspective, feels like some fake TWTBAW attempt
also this whole "im not a good player" mindset is just a mentality thing from her, she knows how to play town well enough, but whats strong is her wolf game, she is one of the better wolves from my homesite, knows how to keep her composure, make fake content, and manipulate
the same goes to her, "I didn't use my shot", stating it outright looks good, but I can't see why as a town she wouldn't use it
FoS: Fuwa
Chris's read of Tom is still garbage btw, and reachy as hell
I'd probably giggle if it turned out to be true (a rehash of #1623), but ya, no thanks
anyways
I'm off for the night
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So why did you in response to a question about your role reply by saying that KCC is town? Town reading KCC is a thing. And choosing to keep your role hidden is a thing. But pretending you're explaining your role giving when you're making a read on KCC isn't a thing.
Vote: Fuwa
Vote: Fuwa
Right now I have a town core, with some scum reads and a lot of nulls and a few crazy possible teams.
I have this sneaking suspicion that Canteip might be scum, but nothing to support it. Grape is doing grape stuff and that makes me think he is town. Usually as scum, he'd have help from his buddies to not make theae werid posts.
Also tom is now heavily in the town core. This is not scum tom and I'm willing to lay my life on that read.
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Tom agreed. It was, indeed, better that way.
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So, I am just going to wipe my slate clean and go through everyone’s ISO until I think someone does something alignment determining and note it down. I have allowed whimsical Chris to roam to free and I crave greater accuracy.
Tom - Post 777 Tom tilts his head at Az and asks him about me and Wisp. In his next post, 799, he agrees with shadow on an Az wagon and says ‘choo choo.’ In 811 Cantripmancer is quoted reminding Tom he did mention Last’s previous slot, and Tom concedes this but notes the tldr does not make sense and keeps his vote on Az. Later on he makes a nuanced point that the power difference in vezok vs. Az makes a v/v pairing unlikely. I like all of this. I also like the vote on dkings. Okay I was wrong Tom is probably town dayvig, interesting.
Dkingsland967 - His first real post was to ask Az why he frowned at rhand but did the same thing towards KCC. I am intrigued. Attacks his Grapefruit read. Notes along with Vezok and Shadow previously that KJ threw a lot of shade but did not place a vote. Which indeed is usually quite poor. Later asks Az to explain frowns.
Right. I just flat out believe Dkings when he says that he doesn’t like that Az picked out certain games. That is… an insane detail to pick up on if you’re bussing your buddy. Like that is legitimately a next level type of bus that would astound me.
Beeboy - He doesn’t have the pro ‘die Az die’ equity as the above two posters, but in a vacuum of his ISO the way he expresses suspicion of someone like Shadow who has a consistent scum read of him is egocentrically town to me. Rhand as well. It’s more of a lean then the above two for sure but gosh that is just uncommon for scum to go “hold on there, I thought you were town but you just won’t stop no matter what I say.” Although the way he phrases things gives me a bad vibe and Rhand being the night kill when Rhand kept trying to stab him makes his scum equity go up a little bit, as I am a big believer in listening to dead town whenever possible if their opinions haven’t been made obsolete with new information. Him saying he’d try to be more active for me and Wisp seemed so wholesome too, though. Near the end when he is talking about Shadow… I agree with him. Shadow’s defenses were really poor at the time, as either alignment. Him being frustrated at “shadow isn’t being lynched today” being an actual defense instead of the conclusion of a defense makes sense to me from a town profile. He even gets in Wisp’s face about arbitrary reasons. He seems kind of pissed. He also thought Az’ claim made sense, well… won’t be a hypocrite there lol. I guess we’ll see how my re-read goes with the new owner of this slot and how everything else goes.
Megiddo - Voted KCC. I like him already. But he doesn’t have much to go on, but I do enjoy that he has Denny Crane as his Avatar and I have Alan Shore, so that’s pretty great.
Vezok - If literally nothing else, Vezok goes from trying to spike my head day one to pouncing on Az. Then there’s the whole counterclaim business and the way he announced his conditional and… yeah, Vezok is pretty town right now and above consideration.
Killjoy - 154 he posts a lot of reads and boy people are right when they say it is a common scum error that they don’t drop their vote when doing stuff like this. He clearly should have cast a Tom vote here as that was the conclusion of this post to me clearly - he even singled out Tom as “more likely” so what’s the point of not voting here?
This feels… very forced. He goes from 1-2 scum on him to “scum driven” with no real logic. Then he goes for the classic “Want me to just ignore the thread? Huh? Do you?”
Skipping ahead a bit I look for Az mentions and we have ooe here.
This immediately sets off alarms because his mention of Az feels a lot more concrete than Vaimes, doesn’t it? He doesn’t have a read on slot three but he wants Vaimes to post more, which is OK in a vacuum not everyone develops strong reads, but thinking Az is playing a bit off of his town meta is obviously more concerning than that. I actually don’t understand the thinking process that leads KJ to think of putting Vaimes over Az here. Which could be a good look for Wisp if KJ is scum because it may be that KJ felt nervous about only having three town in this post. Maybe, not sure on that one.
Then after this, after he lists 4 players he thinks are potentially scummy he doesn’t quite defend Az but is all like “I just don’t get it.” He eventually votes Az without giving any legitimate effort to convince people otherwise. He asks a lot but then just goes ‘guess we should vote him’ when Az is clearly cooked by other people’s efforts. Also no vote today either. KJ doesn’t really seem to care too much about pushing his reads, just stating them a lot.
Okay I am actually pretty glad I finally got someone I think was scummy from this, I was starting to worry I would town read everyone and panic.
Fuwa - Early on has a ‘tugging feeling’ Az is town, which I like a bit actually as it would be a strange way to interact early with a buddy. Calls out KJ quite quickly, which I also like a lot if KJ does indeed flip scum. Not a lot of content day one from Fuwa really, unfortunately. Wagonomics favor this slot being town, and if KJ is scum the way KJ ripped into shadow for going after Fuwa is almost always white knighting town I’d think.
I will finish this later. I have much to ponder still.
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@tom: Read Chris' last post and tell me why you don't think kj needs to be on your short list.
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Why?
And FTR, while I concede Fuwa may not be the single best shot choice, I still think she's fair game.
Do I think she is more likely to be town than scum? Yes, because counterwagon and the way Az clammed up.
I guess it's a theory difference, but I think a vig's job is to eliminate scummy players who are probably going to get lynched at some point, even if they aren't particularly likely to be scum. If town, it removes a "good" mislynch from the PoE pool and increases the amount of effort the scum team has to put in on future day phases. If they turn out to actually be scum, it's a cherry on top.
And I do believe Fuwa is likely to be lynched at some point, barring a slam dunk "Nope not lynching that" claim. There are more than a few people who still believe she is scum into D2, plus there will always be the lingering question of did she try to fall on a grenade for her JoaT teammate?
I also think Megiddo is a good shot choice, for some of the same reasoning. Beeboy was pretty iffy D1, had a fair amount of suspicion come his way, and his "falling for the claim" comment on Az was... weird. Also, Megiddo's lack of engagement kinda smells like a player who replaced in hoping to dive into the game, saw their scum role PM, and got bummed out.
What??
Is this based solely on meta, or something that has actually happened in this game?
So, tl;dr: We should lynch Killjoy, like I've been saying for two days.
If u just aka what, then idk what you want me to answer with
Because he is re-evaluating stuff and coming to reasonable conclusions. It just seems like a townie mindset.
Tom is town mostly due to meta. It's almost impossible to read tom in the early days, but as scum he is manipulative and tries to lead the town astray. He isn't doing that here. Also if he actually shoots someone as a day vig I won't really soubt that read until lylo.
I remembered I didn't explain why I think shooting fast is best. A day vig is the most powerful ability and just using it is great. Last time someone didn't use his daykill, scum stole it and won the game.
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I'm having trouble following some of this in a TownChris world. The last few hours would have been along the lines of
Chris: Tom is scum, if he shoots me, lynch him.
Chris: My read isn't garbage!
*Throws temper tantrum*
*Nothing changes*
*Hmm.. should I actually read Tom's post?*
Chris: Oh, yeah, my read was garbage
-Like, I'm all for reevaluating, but why scream for Tom's lynch like that without going through his posts at all first? That seems backwards to me
The read changed without posts in between. That points to Chris actually reading my post, realising that maybe his read is wrong and re-evaluating and finding out stuff that makes him question his read.
Also I kinda empathise with absolute reads that get changed easily. I also do this, because if you are floundering on a read nobody is going to follow you onto it. If I say "Chris seems scummy" people will just ignore it, but if I say "Chris' head should be put on a pike and paraded around town to show other scum what will happen to them" makes people listen even if my read is the same. So I don't really blame Chris for using the same strategy.
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Okay, I could maybe see that, but then, this post:
I believe the frustration is real here. But what's the town motivation for this then? Is it because people want to shoot him? -but he knows he is one of the better targets. Is it because people aren't following his Tom read? -an exaggerated read that's based on a single iffy eod post and no deeper reading of anything else he's done? I just don't see it, where is this frustration coming from?
But as a wolf, this reads like: I'm covered in wool, I've got this fancy sheep mask, I'm baaing, why isn't this working? What do I need to do?!
Where are you at right now, you said you were going to read through the thread
also, calling yourself an easy mislynch is just weird, and definitely not +town points
does wolf!Chris re-evaluate Tom just like that, yes
could town!Chris also do it, yes
Wagons have completely stalled because we're waiting until tom kills someone to move forward. Everything else just sounds like white noise to me. If anything, I think Chris looks a little better and tom looks worse, but that's literally it.
You think I'm town, but if I said I have mechanical confirmation that tom is scum then you wouldn't believe me. I see a problem with that.
I would like to see what comes out of his re-read
Every player was voting in the final votecount, and it's incredily unlikely the entire scum team was bussing Azrael at the end of the day. It's a virtual lock there is scum within the group that stayed on Fuwa (+ Beeboy).
Tom himself is in that group, and vezok is clearly off the table. The shot should be taken from within the group of four players not voting for Azrael here.
Side note: Regarding Chris's theory that Tom is scum and gained a day kill from the Azrael lynch, it's worth noting he wasn't on it. Vezok claimed he has to actually participate in a town lynch to unlock an ability, so the idea of them balancing each other out is DOA.
The thing Vaimes quoted was what I said "What??" to in my earlier post.
In a 7-12 player game, maybe. And maybe things have changed dramatically in the last two years or so, but from what I recall of games this size on MTGS, they almost always have a limited-shot alignment cop at a minimum.
I just enjoy saying lunch now.
It's similar to the gonna > finna shift.
Vig is supposed to shoot scum, by the way. That's the job. Dkings. Not scummy. But scum. People say to shoot in the common PoE to justify if they are wrong, but I have never seen anyone complain when someone does a hero move and hits the power wolf. Just awkward when they are wrong.
I threw no temper tantrums, btw KCC. I did not scream. I pushed. Asking people to give reads on situations, see reactions, attempting to gain an understanding, is not a temper tantrum.
This isn't valid, things don't have to perfectly match in this way and it is possible other people have something similar to Vezok.
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Finishing isos of potential shots today.
I was vaguely thinking about halfway through the day but maybe earlier is better
Have I been rude, or have I simply refused to place you on a pedestal? You know, your main defense this game has been "Those points are invalid because I'm so amazing. Look at my immaculate record and awards!" And yeah, no, I really don't care. -If I think you're wrong I'm going to tell you, and if I think you're scum, I'm going to lynch you. And you really shouldn't feel personally aggrieved by that. It's not about you.
If you're town, you can show me post game where you felt I crossed a line, and I will definitely truly be interested in having that discussion with you, but until then, you'll have to excuse me if I take this all with a grain of salt.
I'd definitely prefer having more time to reread and process after the flip.
Rvs type stuff is a little "hello fellow kids"-y, but there is a read on shadow in there thats so oddball i kinda think its towny
Particularly: rhand calls out part of this read for being what it was against and the response is basically "good job now go away"
dont like this response to kj wagon regardless of kj alignment
Beeboy learned something about cantrip mechanically, but it doesnt enter the equation wrt cantrips alignment yikes scumpeasement yeah im probably shooting this lol this a wolf yo
Have you never played with me before? Literally everything in this post is well within my play. Not even alignment specific play, just my play. I'm also an easy mislynch in about 90% of games I play... the exception being usually when I go kinda off the rails with some theory on someone's alignment which comes off as really pure (and is always wrong).
But you've played enough games with me to know that you saying that me being an easy mislynch is weird is just plain wrong. You KNOW better, This post can't be real. I think you're scum. Vote Last
PAGE ONE
Shadow's 28 declares vezok town for saying he needed to be on the lynch wagon, which is very out of nowhere hot-takey. There's no obvious alignment indication from it, it's just I'm feeling he's making that determination early with little supporting info. It's weak I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Ooh. Cantrip's 31 see's this ^^^^, but doesn't question why he's town, just why it's gross. I highlight this because that wasn't my reaction to this, and I feel like there's more that one reason vezok's statement could make him town. I'm just wondering why he didn't ask.
Shadow's 33 answers this with an answer that makes snese. He also answers why it makes him town (which again wasn't asked) which probably means Shadow does not suspect Cantrip of being scum as of then. This could be relevant if Shadow is suddenyl scumreading Cantrip at some point soon/ says he's been suspecting him a while etc.
Cantrip's 38... it says Cantrip agrees with shadow that it makes Vez likely town than not, but then goes on to say he thought shadow was shading Vez with the 'gross' comment. Cantrip then asks Shadow why he would "apply a descriptor that paints Vez's action in a negative light if you think he's town?" which i feel is a weird question. It's one of those questions that digs so deep it kind of surpasses the intent of the post. I never thought gross meant scummy, and shadow confirmed that. This question assumes all words with a negative connotation as being connected with scumminess (which I don't think is true). Cantrip then follows this with a question that basically amounts to "how likely do you think Vez is to be scum based on what he did". These questions feel a bit disconnected, especially since he said earlier that he agreed that Vez was likely town.I'm having trouble following the process that started in the second paragraph and ended in the last one.
Shadow answers, but it's pretty standard.
Everything else on this page also pretty standard.
Cantrip: Talk to me about 38. Please and thanks.
Vote Count 2.4
tomsloger (3): Axelrod, Sir Chris, Vaimes
Killjoy (2): dkingsland967, vezokpiraka
Sir Chris (2): Cantripmancer, Lastwhisper
Fuwa (2): Grapefruit21, Grapefruit21
Lastwhisper (1): Killjoy
KittyCupCake (1): Megiddo
Abstain (4): tomsloger, Fuwa, KittyCupCake, shadowlancerx
With 14 alive, it takes 8 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Sunday, September 1st, at 11:59 PM.
these contradictions are why I dont believe your reads are real, and that vote is reachy, and there's always no way for me to rebuttal it, since I have no memory of much of your posts from past games
also its a poor omgus
maybe I should humor you as mislynch bait as you say, your posts are obviously scummy, if you are town
why shouldnt I vote you right now? Whats the towniest thing you've done this game?