30: Votes Rhand, interacts with me, Tom, Silver, and Grape. Only one that's even close to serious is with Grape.
32: Interacts with Shadow, humor involved. Shadow's response is spot-on. Possible this is theatre/soft-lobbing?
40: Says Grape's newer style isn't working for him.
41: Name drops Chris, but doesn't really comment on him.
44: Uses a lot of words to hedge on Grape, says he feels different from normal. Comment to Rhand feels more pockety than open-wolfy, imo.
51: Responds to Shin's question, asks if Shin's vote on Tom is real.
61: Responds to Tom's question on why Grape feels different, sorta works around the idea that Grape felt scummy before but doesn't now. Mild shade on Shin's ability (or effort).
69: Mild shades Shin, questions him again.
94: Responds to Tom's question on Grape, asks Tom if Tom can read Grape, tells Shadow his Grape question wasn't related just to this game.
140: Says Rhand is townier than Chris, likes Rhand's catch on Tubba's RB/JK comment, votes Tubba. Re-addresses Shin about his Tom vote. +town to Tubba.
146: Responds to Tubba, questions why Tom questioned him (LnG) but didn't question Tubba. Teams Tom/Chris/Shadow but says it's probably not that easy. More +town to Tubba. Mild tinfoil that LnG is well aware of the rule of 3 and Tom being the NK is partly to paint Chris/Shadow in worse light, but Tom was probably just killed because he's a good player.
147: Addresses me and Rhand, tries to paint Tubba scum if Tom flips scum...? -town to Tubba?
150: Hedges on Chris in response to pressure from Chris. Questions Tom, again intimates that Tubba's post should receive scrutiny (if LnG's post should).
152: Mild shade on Tubba.
153: Votes Tom "to bother him".
159: Responds to Tubba.
265: Responds to my question about Rhand, says if he was already reading Rhand as scum Rhand's leaping from Tubba to Shadow is something he'll have to think about. Pushes on Tom for defending Tubba, mentions that Chris might also do that.
273: Attacks Tom again for defending Tubba, shades Shadow, tries to tie Chris to Tom by asking why Chris didn't comment on Tom in his big post.
276: Tells Tom that Tom was defending Tubba by attacking Lng.
277: Pushes Chris to weigh in on Tom.
331: Looking at this in context, I can sorta see where Grape's coming from on his read of the whole "Will/Rhand/Shadow" thing, but I don't think it points to a scum!Shadow. I could see cases for "LnG coaching Will on making a bad read" or "LnG soft defending Rhand", but not "LnG saw Will being suspicious of Rhand for voting Shadow and felt the need to comment because Shadow's his buddy." He also says Tom and Shadow are impossible to lynch and need focus in later Days, and lowers the importance of his meta question to Grape.
356: Asks Silver why no one wants to lunch Riku. +town to Wisp. Sounds Tubba out on Chris not interacting with Tom.
887: Catch up post.
888: Never mind, self hammer.
891: Congratulates me.
898: Parting shot at Tom.
Takeaways:
• I don't feel like his interactions with Tubba are scum/scum. It sounds like he's sounding him out, but not in a "hey, want to go in this direction" kind of way. Tubba is town.
• I get an orbiting/satellite vibe from LnG on Chris; I think LnG was afraid of Chris, and I'm leaning toward "because Chris is town and a good player" more than "because Chris is his buddy and LnG is afraid of angering him/being bussed".
• Not a lot of interaction with Shin, but what is there felt like attacks. Lean town on Vaimes.
• Barely any interaction with Silver, but 356 makes me feel a little better on Silver because, similar to Tubba, it feels like LnG encouraging Silver to do the dirty work. Slight lean town on Silver.
• Barely any interaction with Riku/Wisp, either, but the one there is is +town to Wisp.
• Other than the joking around with Shadow at the start of the thread, not much from LnG to Shadow. Null to maybe slight scum lean.
• There's a LOT of interaction about Grape (which is expected, given that his question to Grape generated a lot of conversation), but not a lot with Grape. Possible that he offered up a "hot" read on buddy!Grape in his first post, then got tangled up in people focusing on that. I want to iso Grape.
• Lots of interactions with Rhand, RVS vote would be on a buddy, comment in 44 feels pockety, towns Rhand pretty heavily. I want to say that LnG asking a read of me and Rhand in 147 is indicative of Rhand being scum because I'm town, but it's possible that LnG just asked two town. I want to iso Rhand, too.
Sorry I'm moving so slow, but I'll plan on looking at Rhand, Grape, and Shadow next, maybe just a reread-skim with heavy attention paid to those three.
This is good.
I would change one thing though, there isn't a lot of interaction with Rhand. Rhand just was on the end of some of his more effortful posts.
Cantrip said it here, and clearly you don’t disagree?
But you’re right, you didn’t say it yourself. Which is part of what you’re not doing: explaining why I’m scum in your eyes. All you do is repeating it so often that people start believing it.
Chris, I like to think I know you reasonably well, but it’s just inaccurate to say I followed your career from before I started here.
Give me a percentage you were on scum!lng day one at its highest point preflip. And why wouldn’t scum!you push outside of a buddy on day one if you knew you could get away with it?
We lost GoT. I will point out. Why do I have imaginary confidence that I could "get away with it."
Also a universal meta for me these days: I am in not so great health. I don't have the energy to get that extra as either alignment anymore. I do things I think are good for my alignment, and expending so much energy defending Lng is just... not something I am probably even capable of anymore.
Lng being so useless was just.. sad to see, even from scum. Games aren't fun when that level of play is on display.
Speaking of people in prime bussing positions, is Rodemy v/la? He has been quiet.
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Chris, I like to think I know you reasonably well, but it’s just inaccurate to say I followed your career from before I started here.
Give me a percentage you were on scum!lng day one at its highest point preflip. And why wouldn’t scum!you push outside of a buddy on day one if you knew you could get away with it?
We lost GoT. I will point out. Why do I have imaginary confidence that I could "get away with it."
Also a universal meta for me these days: I am in not so great health. I don't have the energy to get that extra as either alignment anymore. I do things I think are good for my alignment, and expending so much energy defending Lng is just... not something I am probably even capable of anymore.
Lng being so useless was just.. sad to see, even from scum. Games aren't fun when that level of play is on display.
Speaking of people in prime bussing positions, is Rodemy v/la? He has been quiet.
I work I this heat that we’ve been having. This game is a lot right now.
I stated my opinions. Was shot down. Now I am just following.
vote grand
I’m so tired guys.
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Nah, vaimes is still the safer Lynch, then looking at a deep wolf today
The strangest thing toDay are the 2 PR claims and their targets.
I will stand on this hill until another flip.
I can’t iso on the phone well.
But i’ll See if I can look at rhand tomorrow. Grr left us with very little and to try and nitpick what little he gave us is a waste of time. I want to look at who wasn’t pushing grr and when certain people chimed I’m in relation to his votecount
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My main takeaway from the Rhand iso is that he didn't even mention LnGrrrR existed for most of D1. He tried to tie him to Grape at one point and put him at L-1 to force a claim while acknowledging that the claim likely wouldn't come because LnGr had been inactive/VLA. He ended up going back to Grape and stayed on his vanity wagon through day end (though maybe he would have hammered if LnGr hadn't hammered himself, certainly he said he would do that but I'm ~pretty sure it's NAI).
As far as actual content goes the stuff I said in my D1 iso basically stands? I'm inclined to believe him that other people not understanding his pushes is NAI for him but... that isn't the only issue here.
I wanted to give him credit for reevaluating the Grape/LnGr team he had on D1 when I pointed out that LnGr used Grape's meta as a talking piece to enter the game because he said when he was a wolf with LnGr last time that he had to make LnGr interact with him... but, of course, now he's on Grape again. Kind of feel like the re-evaluation there wasn't genuine at all, and his focus on the reasons people think he could be a wolf feels a bit "caught for the wrong reasons".
Grape ~feels like~ a safe push for him if he's a wolf because he thinks Grape is being "objectively wolfy", but it's also really bizarre after he said he thought I was right about them not being aligned. He didn't even mention what changed his mind about it.
His reads are also really... not fluid, seemingly nonexistent. Besides forgetting that Grape is probably not a LnGr partner, he was townreading a few players at EoD1 but recently lost his townreads on everyone but Chris, LW because of his claim, and Tubba because he doesn't think Tubba and LnGr are aligned. Which sort of feels like he's trying to give out the minimum number of townreads he can get away with to keep his options open.
Also, there's this whole progression on me. He initially was part of the "not lunching you because active" crowd, but towards the EoD1 he voted me and tried to (overly, in my opinion) justify his vote with a wolf read after Chris offered to look at Grape for him if he did. Which is plenty of reason to vote me if he's a villager, he doesn't need to think I'm a wolf to vote me in that situation, he could have just unvoted after he got what he wanted from Chris. The fact that he tried to justify the vote with anything other than "Chris said he would look at Grape if I did" is extremely wolfy, especially given he decided that he wasn't going to vote me again at all D1 after he went back to Grape. There's no actual progression there from the wolf read to "not lunching toDay" to now, apparently, back in limbo with everyone else. If it was just "being in limbo" after "not lunching toDay" because he's tinfoiling me or actually trying to divine my alignment instead of ignoring me or whatever that would be one thing but the overly justified vote and the rest of the progression is really wolfy.
I know I said this probably wouldn't be a case, but I think I actively want to lunch Rhand over other players at the moment.
@Rhand: do you remember your last wolf game? Name only is fine if you don't want to link it, I have a bit of extra computer time at the moment.
Also can you explain why you changed your mind about wolf!LnGr probably not selecting Grape's meta as fluff to enter the game with if they're partners?
Grape is just independently scummy. Lngrr’s interactions with him makes it a bit less likely, but Grape’s behaviour just screams scum.
Read his iso. If you think I am not re-evaluating, try on Grape for size.
And I am re-evaluating, which is why my list of townreads got smaller.
Shadow was a townread because of early mindmeld, but ever since then he’s just coasting.
Cantrip has 1 good post, but that doesn’t clear him.
I trust my gut on LW, even though he doesn’t agree with that read.
Rodemy’s vote on me is worrisome as he clearly doesn’t have a read on me.
When I went through your iso when Chris asked me to vote you, I thought he was onto something. And you’re for sure not 100% clear for me.
I think you are just saying it didn't rub you well, for absolutely no reason at all
questionable that being jumpy with votes is the thing that pings you the most out of his iso since you'd have to be a pretty self-aware wolf to have the balls to throw your vote around willy nilly
I'm probably just going to continue to white knight Rhand so if he flips town I can proclaim I was right
@Rhand: Oh, right, you were a wolf in GoT. Rofl. Last town game?
It isn't about me not being lock clear. It's about your whole progression, on me, on Grape, on the game. Body-of-work you just kind of feel like a wolf who is trapped in the box and trying to justify pushing someone outside of it.
But I don't really want to talk about you because that isn't going to change my mind. I think Grape is a villager. Who else do you have as wolves? Do you think any of my townreads are bad clears (besides Grape)?
I know it's a Saturday but where is everyone? It isn't like we've decided on a lunch and there's some kind of consensus about the PoE. Game is far too quiet for the wagon formation we have right now.
I think you are just saying it didn't rub you well, for absolutely no reason at all
questionable that being jumpy with votes is the thing that pings you the most out of his iso since you'd have to be a pretty self-aware wolf to have the balls to throw your vote around willy nilly
I'm probably just going to continue to white knight Rhand so if he flips town I can proclaim I was right
We are not gonna play the hypocrite card. Silver already did that you don’t get to do that too.
It rubbed me wrong because the reaction was off. You can be too jumpy and then too tunnely in the same game and be see n as scum for both. Rhand ya sheen around too long to not understand that.
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I wouldn't even really say he's been tunnely, it's just the way he sort of votes someone and then comes back to grape when the new wagon doesn't take off and he doesn't know what to do with his vote. Feels like he thinks voting grape is "safe".
To be fair, there are multiple explanations for that alone. He might be a villager just really convinced Grape is a wolf. But the cleanest explanation for it and for his progression on me is that he's just a wolf who has already spewed Grape town after he flips so parking on him and pushing him more avoids more spew when he's under fire and can't find a viable counterwagon.
Could I be wrong? Sure, could be. Always possible. I've been spectacularly wrong before and I probably will be again. But as of right now I think he's highest % to flip wolf.
I'll probably hit his Game of Thrones iso (and his last town game if I can find it) sometime tomorrow just to see, but in a vacuum he's the wolfiest player in the game (who hasn't claimed a role that probably makes him a villager) by a fair margin.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Like, I vaguely remember you saying something about LnGr encouraging him to argue with Chris and you thought that made it TvT but that's not really how I read that bit I guess.
I think I am taking Rhand vs Chris in that war. That is partially due to Chris's bombast and overall pomposity.
Also...
Vote Tubba
I liked Rhand's catch on the RB/JK post. That is such a weirdly specific comment to make, early on in a game, and not considering whether it was scum or town before outing feels off.
@Shin, so... was your Tom vote RVS or not?
Like, pretty sure this is the post you're talking about, and I read it way more like a driveby comment than like egging them on or anything.
Rhand was lynched day 1 as town in the all in the family or whatever it was called. I will be interested to see if he is different as his last game where as town he was lynched day 1 which is why I am like "hm, I bet rhand is town here because he tends to be mislynch bait but as scum is pretty sneaky" as I have been fine with him this game.
Does anyone believe that it was all town on Lng? Just curious where everyone is on that. I think it is super obvious someone would have for sure bussed their buddy in that spot. It just makes 0 sense for that not to be reality.
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Currently thinking it's shadow, something like shadow bussing > Rodemy bussing >>> all town wagon > Chris bussing I think. Just seems more likely Rhand is a wolf by behavior and such.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Anyway Rhand is totally a wolf here. His responses have been weak, his reads don't flow, I'm the only person he's push with conviction all game and his push is made of tissue paper. And his best comeback today has been "but you're not really pushing me" which I guess is true but is pretty irrelevant.
Silver is basically never leaving my town pile. Not only did he ISO Rhand after saying he didn't expect to find a case and find everything I'd been seeing and say it in such a better way than I had, but he's also playing a game that would be leaps and bounds better than his best scum game.
Wisp is probably town because of his play and should be able to prove it tonight.
Chris probably is not scum if Rhand is.
Tubba, Vaimes, and Cantrip also get some town cred in the scum!Rhand world because as has been mentioned there probably was scum bussing LnG.
Rod has been townier than Shadow but I'd not be surprised by either flipping scum. In the worlds where there wasn't scum bussing LnG it's probably Cantrip which I think is reasonable as he's not always the bussing type. I think Vaimes or Tubba would have flipped on LnG hard. Especially Vaimes.
Grapefruit how is Rhand different here as opposed to Death in the Family, where you successfully mislynched him day one as town? I noticed he attacked you for your attack there as well. I feel like you are town and the game is trying to revolve around a false sense of who is scum that I am parsing through. Today, to me, feels like scum is in control which is interesting. I don't feel good about the game (probably my lack of not feeling good in general) so I am going to be reviewing some things but I don't see the scum from Rhand at the moment. We just had a moment a few months ago where you went hard on him and were completely wrong. Why are the things you point out AI now?
Silver worries me. I don't know why Silver worries me. I keep coming back to "Hrm." This may just be me needing to really grind out some re-reading to be more comfortable, because I am not very comfortable right now.
I am going to look at LNG's epic ISO because I have notes from his scum performance in Death in the Family day 1 which may be interesting.
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I probably dont get to use my ability tonight, which is still ok, or they shoot me because they realize its dumb to waste a PR on me
honestly I was on Grr almost all day, except when I came in voting Silver, hard pushed for his death, dont even know what kind of wifom they are trying to produce from keeping my slot alive, and wasting their roleblocker on me
the only conviction Rhand had is Grape and thats mostly after some omgusing, still think he is playing like he did in the previous game where he was town, mafia is probably again waiting for us to sike ourselves out, or they are weak if either of these two are hits
dont believe Rhand as wolf, or Chris as a wolf, just lets the game stagnate on them like this
ive literally watched wolf rhand make up bull***** reads to look towny, so exactly what is he doing here, though I wish he would give another read that isnt Grape
So it would surprise me if Grapefruit is scum based off of this quote:
@GF, so do you think you will go back to being humble, given your ... incorrect...ness? Incorrectitude? Or stay with a more braggadocio style? Because I don't think that style is working for you.
(later on)
@GF, because I used to townread you quite frequently and... I scumread you pretty hard last game, and you were scumread in DitF. Just trying to wonder why you feel so different than normal. I don't think I've seen you as scum in awhile, but it's probably not alignment-indicative. I was just weirded out by GoT and I'm not quite sure how to read you now.
Doesn’t feel aligned. In fact really that first question really reads like “I know you are town.” Yeah, big problems with people thinking otherwise on Grapefruit who to me has been fine throughout the game,
Tom did a good job catching Lng on this GF interaction although we have differing opinions on what it means for the game at large.
I think I am taking Rhand vs Chris in that war. That is partially due to Chris's bombast and overall pomposity.
Also...
Vote Tubba
I liked Rhand's catch on the RB/JK post. That is such a weirdly specific comment to make, early on in a game, and not considering whether it was scum or town before outing feels off.
Speaking of things, Grapefruit we have a problem. Does Lng really go against me and for his scumbuddy and then go “I like my scumbuddy’s read of Tubba here, let me vote him now”? I don’t think so. I’ll defer on Tubba for now in terms of bus potential from this vote (leaning towards maybe not but only a lean) but it’d surprise me a great deal if this was defending a buddy.
Okay so hilariously Lng named Tom, Shadow, and me as a “scum team” when he had voted Tubba the post before. I.. think that has bad implications for Shadow and good ones for Tubba, but I am so confused right now. Would be funny if we caught Shadow on rule of three though.
Oh jesus guys. I just got to the part where Lng was going after me for a stupid no Tom mention. Shadow I think you are scum, so fair, but Wisp how can you read how Lng talked to me and think he is my buddy? Come on.
Okay so I think one of the people Lng suspected was scum based off his list day 1 in Death in the Family:
LnGrrrR - Duh
TOWN LW - Already mentioned but lots of interactions/posts real time, bad wagon against him
TOWN Grape - Revisit if KJ flips scum but here for now
KJ - No agenda, trying to figure out games tate, not rushing to decisions
Tom - Always hard to read, but making what seems like earnest pushes, tons of posts, stubbornly wrong on me which likely comes from town
TOWN DV - Came in and started making pushes, has refrained from pushing people emotionally, moving the game forward, unpopular opinion on etr
SCUM M1ndreaver - Nullish, not seeing eye to eye on Tom vote/DV fight, probably need more time to sort
GJ - Need more Posts, GJ is a good player
SCUM Vaimes - Feels like 99% of his posts have been sheeping someone else, not a ton of original content
EtR - Hard for me to reconcile his play with not just exposing Tau. I can kinda sort see the reasoning... if I squint and turn my head sideways. But it makes me brain hurt. I wouldn't be super shocked if he was just scum that screwed up. But think it's worth giving time because I have Tau lower.
Rhand - I don't think I have seen a case yet from Rhand, or really anything that goes out on a limb. In retrospect, I would probably move him above Vaimes on this list.
Ruma - Kinda lucky, which fits scum meta. No big rush though, especially since I have trouble reading Riku it seems.
Tau - Two things already mentioned, his case on me and his complete 180. Not willing , just grant him the "Must be town!" clear because scum have done scummiest things and been cleared off that.
SCUM Rodemy - Didn't like his jump on GF and overall aggression early. His early barb at Tom for saying he was putting words in LW'S mouth is an example. It was an obvious joke, but Rodemy uses it to set up an attack.
Tubba - Really tentative, and throws out posts like the one to DV where he asks why DV is so confident. Just feels like a nothing post. What is DV supposed to do, caveat everyone of his posts with a "This is my opinion" disclaimer?
Kami - 80 to 90% sure etr is scum lulz
So in this game he had two buddies doing OK and oe in his bottom three. Also apparently, if Tubba is town, he likes poking at Tubba.
Anyway based off this distribution chart it seems like he feels comfortable throwing shade on strong players who he knows won’t be endangered early on. So him throwing shade upon Shadow, along with my strong theory that at least one mafia member would not allow an idling Lng to go unbussed, along with me realizing an earnest read of an Lng iso should clear me to anyone with a modicum of thought in their reasoning, all roads lead me back to Shadow at present and very much away from Rhand and GF.
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Like at this point consider me throwing out the same defense of Rhand that I did for Osi in Death in the Family. If you have not read Day 2 of that read that and how we went from -1 on town to murdering scum. Look I may not be the best in the world at town clearing people but I'll be damned if I am not top 5 and I am telling you Rhand is town. Now, great news if you think I am scum (I don't think anyone on that wagon thinks I am scum but shh) is that scum Chris would totally go hard on defending a town Rhand to establish credibility with the town except he'd let you guys kill him and then go "hoho" AND WE AIN'T PLAYING THAT GAME TODAY.
So Shadow wants me to come at him. So I am. With a big Lng sized stick.
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See let me break this down for everyone. Shadow never expected to lynch me today, he is not so naive, but he was hoping to follow up his momentum from day one where I thought his pushing of me was town to have my defense of him. However I am fickle and very, very hard to pocket which Shadow is now just realizing with horror. He pushed a little too hard. Too many things in the pacing of this game are adding up against him. Many suspects of the day are people I don't think are very suspect so now he has a problem.
He told me to come at him.
Oh boy, that's not going to look good in post game
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Meh weird cruise start again. The passengers leave me no time to play
@Silver: what are your townclears?
I will back off from Grape for now because I think Shadow is probably a hit.
His answer to the mindmeld was very underwhelming because he only has the Chris situation in the beginning, which was mindmelding the other way around, and he has nothing else. Seems like he just has me as town because he knows I am town.
What bugs me a bit is that shadow isn’t taking charge, which is something I am used to from scum!Shadow.
But everything else points to him being scum.
Silver’s read on me feels genuine, and this post from Grape makes me feel maybe Grape is genuine too?
It’s the first post where I actually belief he does scumread me.
Anyway Rhand is totally a wolf here. His responses have been weak, his reads don't flow, I'm the only person he's push with conviction all game and his push is made of tissue paper. And his best comeback today has been "but you're not really pushing me" which I guess is true but is pretty irrelevant.
Silver is basically never leaving my town pile. Not only did he ISO Rhand after saying he didn't expect to find a case and find everything I'd been seeing and say it in such a better way than I had, but he's also playing a game that would be leaps and bounds better than his best scum game.
Wisp is probably town because of his play and should be able to prove it tonight.
Chris probably is not scum if Rhand is.
Tubba, Vaimes, and Cantrip also get some town cred in the scum!Rhand world because as has been mentioned there probably was scum bussing LnG.
Rod has been townier than Shadow but I'd not be surprised by either flipping scum. In the worlds where there wasn't scum bussing LnG it's probably Cantrip which I think is reasonable as he's not always the bussing type. I think Vaimes or Tubba would have flipped on LnG hard. Especially Vaimes.
Rodemy feels less genuine.
My current worldview looks like this:
Town
LW
Chris
tubba
Grapefruit how is Rhand different here as opposed to Death in the Family
He's scum here.
But seriously I think the key thing here is the anchoring on me. He's tried to walk away from scum reading me several times and keeps coming back to it. Which does sound like a townie thing to do but he literally hasn't had a case beyond OMGUS. There has been other stuff but none of it's stuck or been what he's cared about. He's also been slippery and evasive in avoiding questions.
I get that you're doing the cards on the table thing and you're better than I am but you've been trying so hard to town read Rhand this whole game (see locking him town for voting silver at your behest before never mentioning it again) that I just don't trust you despite rationally knowing that if I think you are town I should.
Hi Grapefruit that's not how I play mafia. I dont use confirmation bias I tend to forget my reads at the start of each new day essentially and start fresh. Just because I read someone town day one doesnt mean I stick with it. See Shadow.
Why did you vote him in DitF?
Let go of the old hatreds.
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@Chris: I think LnGr could definitely say "I like Rhand in Rhand vs LnGr and also Rhand's catch on tubba is good" if Rhand is his partner. Feels like, at that point in the game, he was looking for things that are "objectively wolfy" to push and he would definitely agree with a partner on one of those things if he thought it was something "objectively wolfy". Not sure why you're reading it as a defense of Rhand because it has literally no substance, it's just a drive by comment on something important happening in the game.
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@Rhand:
Silvercrys3467
Lastwhisper
Grape
Tubba
Vaimes
Chris
Rodemy
Cantrip
shadow
Rhand
I think Wisp is the only one that really rises to the level of "clear" but I'm not really considering lunches on anyone above Rodemy.
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Cantrip said it here, and clearly you don’t disagree?
But you’re right, you didn’t say it yourself. Which is part of what you’re not doing: explaining why I’m scum in your eyes. All you do is repeating it so often that people start believing it.
We lost GoT. I will point out. Why do I have imaginary confidence that I could "get away with it."
Also a universal meta for me these days: I am in not so great health. I don't have the energy to get that extra as either alignment anymore. I do things I think are good for my alignment, and expending so much energy defending Lng is just... not something I am probably even capable of anymore.
Lng being so useless was just.. sad to see, even from scum. Games aren't fun when that level of play is on display.
Speaking of people in prime bussing positions, is Rodemy v/la? He has been quiet.
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Currently going through Rhand's iso, I'll be around for a while if anyone wants to chat.
I work I this heat that we’ve been having. This game is a lot right now.
I stated my opinions. Was shot down. Now I am just following.
vote grand
I’m so tired guys.
The strangest thing toDay are the 2 PR claims and their targets.
I will stand on this hill until another flip.
I can’t iso on the phone well.
But i’ll See if I can look at rhand tomorrow. Grr left us with very little and to try and nitpick what little he gave us is a waste of time. I want to look at who wasn’t pushing grr and when certain people chimed I’m in relation to his votecount
My main takeaway from the Rhand iso is that he didn't even mention LnGrrrR existed for most of D1. He tried to tie him to Grape at one point and put him at L-1 to force a claim while acknowledging that the claim likely wouldn't come because LnGr had been inactive/VLA. He ended up going back to Grape and stayed on his vanity wagon through day end (though maybe he would have hammered if LnGr hadn't hammered himself, certainly he said he would do that but I'm ~pretty sure it's NAI).
As far as actual content goes the stuff I said in my D1 iso basically stands? I'm inclined to believe him that other people not understanding his pushes is NAI for him but... that isn't the only issue here.
I wanted to give him credit for reevaluating the Grape/LnGr team he had on D1 when I pointed out that LnGr used Grape's meta as a talking piece to enter the game because he said when he was a wolf with LnGr last time that he had to make LnGr interact with him... but, of course, now he's on Grape again. Kind of feel like the re-evaluation there wasn't genuine at all, and his focus on the reasons people think he could be a wolf feels a bit "caught for the wrong reasons".
Grape ~feels like~ a safe push for him if he's a wolf because he thinks Grape is being "objectively wolfy", but it's also really bizarre after he said he thought I was right about them not being aligned. He didn't even mention what changed his mind about it.
His reads are also really... not fluid, seemingly nonexistent. Besides forgetting that Grape is probably not a LnGr partner, he was townreading a few players at EoD1 but recently lost his townreads on everyone but Chris, LW because of his claim, and Tubba because he doesn't think Tubba and LnGr are aligned. Which sort of feels like he's trying to give out the minimum number of townreads he can get away with to keep his options open.
Also, there's this whole progression on me. He initially was part of the "not lunching you because active" crowd, but towards the EoD1 he voted me and tried to (overly, in my opinion) justify his vote with a wolf read after Chris offered to look at Grape for him if he did. Which is plenty of reason to vote me if he's a villager, he doesn't need to think I'm a wolf to vote me in that situation, he could have just unvoted after he got what he wanted from Chris. The fact that he tried to justify the vote with anything other than "Chris said he would look at Grape if I did" is extremely wolfy, especially given he decided that he wasn't going to vote me again at all D1 after he went back to Grape. There's no actual progression there from the wolf read to "not lunching toDay" to now, apparently, back in limbo with everyone else. If it was just "being in limbo" after "not lunching toDay" because he's tinfoiling me or actually trying to divine my alignment instead of ignoring me or whatever that would be one thing but the overly justified vote and the rest of the progression is really wolfy.
I know I said this probably wouldn't be a case, but I think I actively want to lunch Rhand over other players at the moment.
Also can you explain why you changed your mind about wolf!LnGr probably not selecting Grape's meta as fluff to enter the game with if they're partners?
Grape is just independently scummy. Lngrr’s interactions with him makes it a bit less likely, but Grape’s behaviour just screams scum.
Read his iso. If you think I am not re-evaluating, try on Grape for size.
And I am re-evaluating, which is why my list of townreads got smaller.
Shadow was a townread because of early mindmeld, but ever since then he’s just coasting.
Cantrip has 1 good post, but that doesn’t clear him.
I trust my gut on LW, even though he doesn’t agree with that read.
Rodemy’s vote on me is worrisome as he clearly doesn’t have a read on me.
When I went through your iso when Chris asked me to vote you, I thought he was onto something. And you’re for sure not 100% clear for me.
Rhands early game remind Sunday me of my scumgame. Throw suspicion around without committing.
Easily read with his jump from Chris.
Now I’ve been accused of tunnelling and of not committing lol.
I’m just going off of what I skimmed in your iso.
Your vote jumped around soooo much.
That reply didn’t rub me well
questionable that being jumpy with votes is the thing that pings you the most out of his iso since you'd have to be a pretty self-aware wolf to have the balls to throw your vote around willy nilly
I'm probably just going to continue to white knight Rhand so if he flips town I can proclaim I was right
It isn't about me not being lock clear. It's about your whole progression, on me, on Grape, on the game. Body-of-work you just kind of feel like a wolf who is trapped in the box and trying to justify pushing someone outside of it.
But I don't really want to talk about you because that isn't going to change my mind. I think Grape is a villager. Who else do you have as wolves? Do you think any of my townreads are bad clears (besides Grape)?
We are not gonna play the hypocrite card. Silver already did that you don’t get to do that too.
It rubbed me wrong because the reaction was off. You can be too jumpy and then too tunnely in the same game and be see n as scum for both. Rhand ya sheen around too long to not understand that.
To be fair, there are multiple explanations for that alone. He might be a villager just really convinced Grape is a wolf. But the cleanest explanation for it and for his progression on me is that he's just a wolf who has already spewed Grape town after he flips so parking on him and pushing him more avoids more spew when he's under fire and can't find a viable counterwagon.
Could I be wrong? Sure, could be. Always possible. I've been spectacularly wrong before and I probably will be again. But as of right now I think he's highest % to flip wolf.
I'll probably hit his Game of Thrones iso (and his last town game if I can find it) sometime tomorrow just to see, but in a vacuum he's the wolfiest player in the game (who hasn't claimed a role that probably makes him a villager) by a fair margin.
Rhand (3) - Grapefruit (#1055), Silvercrys3467 (#1236), Rodemy (#1255)
Sir Chris (2) - shadowlancerx (#1146), Lastwhisper (#1224)
Rodemy (1) - Vaimes (#1058)
Grapefruit21 (1) - Rhand (#1212)
shadowlancerx (1) - Sir Chris (#1225)
Not Voting: Cantripmancer, Tubba Fett
I realized I forgot to tell y'all when the deadline was. It's gonna be Sunday, June 28 at midnight PST.
V/LA: Vaimes through the week
I should still be voting Rod, who is scum.
@Vaimes: I remember you saying you have Rhand as the least likely LnGr partner, when you get a bit could you explain?
Does anyone believe that it was all town on Lng? Just curious where everyone is on that. I think it is super obvious someone would have for sure bussed their buddy in that spot. It just makes 0 sense for that not to be reality.
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Vaimes you are wrong and I expect an apology after this is over. Unless you are scum. Then keep doing you.
Here's the vote count right before he self-hammered with colored names:
LnGrrrR(6) -tomsloger(#144), shadowlancerx (#353), Lastwhisper (#487), Sir Chris (#839), Silvercrys3467 (#843), Rodemy (#858)tomsloger(1) -LnGrrrR(#153)Grapefruit21 (1) - Rhand (#751)
Silvercrys3467 (1) - Tubba Fett (#732)
Sir Chris (1) - Cantripmancer (#818)
Rhand (1) - Grapefruit21 (#880)
Not Voting: Vaimes
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Currently thinking it's shadow, something like shadow bussing > Rodemy bussing >>> all town wagon > Chris bussing I think. Just seems more likely Rhand is a wolf by behavior and such.
Anyway Rhand is totally a wolf here. His responses have been weak, his reads don't flow, I'm the only person he's push with conviction all game and his push is made of tissue paper. And his best comeback today has been "but you're not really pushing me" which I guess is true but is pretty irrelevant.
Silver is basically never leaving my town pile. Not only did he ISO Rhand after saying he didn't expect to find a case and find everything I'd been seeing and say it in such a better way than I had, but he's also playing a game that would be leaps and bounds better than his best scum game.
Wisp is probably town because of his play and should be able to prove it tonight.
Chris probably is not scum if Rhand is.
Tubba, Vaimes, and Cantrip also get some town cred in the scum!Rhand world because as has been mentioned there probably was scum bussing LnG.
Rod has been townier than Shadow but I'd not be surprised by either flipping scum. In the worlds where there wasn't scum bussing LnG it's probably Cantrip which I think is reasonable as he's not always the bussing type. I think Vaimes or Tubba would have flipped on LnG hard. Especially Vaimes.
Silver worries me. I don't know why Silver worries me. I keep coming back to "Hrm." This may just be me needing to really grind out some re-reading to be more comfortable, because I am not very comfortable right now.
I am going to look at LNG's epic ISO because I have notes from his scum performance in Death in the Family day 1 which may be interesting.
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honestly I was on Grr almost all day, except when I came in voting Silver, hard pushed for his death, dont even know what kind of wifom they are trying to produce from keeping my slot alive, and wasting their roleblocker on me
the only conviction Rhand had is Grape and thats mostly after some omgusing, still think he is playing like he did in the previous game where he was town, mafia is probably again waiting for us to sike ourselves out, or they are weak if either of these two are hits
dont believe Rhand as wolf, or Chris as a wolf, just lets the game stagnate on them like this
ive literally watched wolf rhand make up bull***** reads to look towny, so exactly what is he doing here, though I wish he would give another read that isnt Grape
Doesn’t feel aligned. In fact really that first question really reads like “I know you are town.” Yeah, big problems with people thinking otherwise on Grapefruit who to me has been fine throughout the game,
Tom did a good job catching Lng on this GF interaction although we have differing opinions on what it means for the game at large.
Speaking of things, Grapefruit we have a problem. Does Lng really go against me and for his scumbuddy and then go “I like my scumbuddy’s read of Tubba here, let me vote him now”? I don’t think so. I’ll defer on Tubba for now in terms of bus potential from this vote (leaning towards maybe not but only a lean) but it’d surprise me a great deal if this was defending a buddy.
Okay so hilariously Lng named Tom, Shadow, and me as a “scum team” when he had voted Tubba the post before. I.. think that has bad implications for Shadow and good ones for Tubba, but I am so confused right now. Would be funny if we caught Shadow on rule of three though.
Oh jesus guys. I just got to the part where Lng was going after me for a stupid no Tom mention. Shadow I think you are scum, so fair, but Wisp how can you read how Lng talked to me and think he is my buddy? Come on.
Okay so I think one of the people Lng suspected was scum based off his list day 1 in Death in the Family:
So in this game he had two buddies doing OK and oe in his bottom three. Also apparently, if Tubba is town, he likes poking at Tubba.
Anyway based off this distribution chart it seems like he feels comfortable throwing shade on strong players who he knows won’t be endangered early on. So him throwing shade upon Shadow, along with my strong theory that at least one mafia member would not allow an idling Lng to go unbussed, along with me realizing an earnest read of an Lng iso should clear me to anyone with a modicum of thought in their reasoning, all roads lead me back to Shadow at present and very much away from Rhand and GF.
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What I read and what I remember is far and in between lol
but like I'm ready to go somewhere else
I just don't know where that's the problem
So Shadow wants me to come at him. So I am. With a big Lng sized stick.
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yeet
He told me to come at him.
Oh boy, that's not going to look good in post game
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@Silver: what are your townclears?
I will back off from Grape for now because I think Shadow is probably a hit.
His answer to the mindmeld was very underwhelming because he only has the Chris situation in the beginning, which was mindmelding the other way around, and he has nothing else. Seems like he just has me as town because he knows I am town.
What bugs me a bit is that shadow isn’t taking charge, which is something I am used to from scum!Shadow.
But everything else points to him being scum.
vote Shadow
It’s the first post where I actually belief he does scumread me.
Rodemy feels less genuine.
My current worldview looks like this:
Town
LW
Chris
tubba
Lean town
Silver
Null
Vaimes
Grape
Lean scum
Cantrip
Rodemy
Shadow
Actually, there should be scum on me by now.
Thoughts on Shadow/Rodemy as team?
He's scum here.
But seriously I think the key thing here is the anchoring on me. He's tried to walk away from scum reading me several times and keeps coming back to it. Which does sound like a townie thing to do but he literally hasn't had a case beyond OMGUS. There has been other stuff but none of it's stuck or been what he's cared about. He's also been slippery and evasive in avoiding questions.
I get that you're doing the cards on the table thing and you're better than I am but you've been trying so hard to town read Rhand this whole game (see locking him town for voting silver at your behest before never mentioning it again) that I just don't trust you despite rationally knowing that if I think you are town I should.
Why did you vote him in DitF?
Let go of the old hatreds.
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@Chris: I think LnGr could definitely say "I like Rhand in Rhand vs LnGr and also Rhand's catch on tubba is good" if Rhand is his partner. Feels like, at that point in the game, he was looking for things that are "objectively wolfy" to push and he would definitely agree with a partner on one of those things if he thought it was something "objectively wolfy". Not sure why you're reading it as a defense of Rhand because it has literally no substance, it's just a drive by comment on something important happening in the game.
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@Rhand:
Silvercrys3467
Lastwhisper
Grape
Tubba
Vaimes
Chris
Rodemy
Cantrip
shadow
Rhand
I think Wisp is the only one that really rises to the level of "clear" but I'm not really considering lunches on anyone above Rodemy.