@Chris: I asked you to explain how you went from scum!Shin to town!Shin. Also, given your claim: are you immune to killing abilities or NKs only?
@GJ: Because it was a purely negative reaction. It wasn't a "well, I don't like it, but we'll see what happens" post - it was a "you made a bad choice" post.
I dislike Chris's reaction to wagoning here, but I'm not sure it's an alignment-related dislike. I get annoyed when people state or imply "if you were good you wouldn't kill me here", so that may be coloring my perception. The claim itself is mechanically null - we have extra kills, which could be town or scum, so town or scum BP are both plausible. It's a relatively safe scum claim too, and we have no way of using the claim to confirm anything.
There's a sort-of-trichotomy with Chris, Shin and X=Y that I think should be resolved today.
scum!Shin and scum!X=y can't coexist.
scum!X=y with scum!Chris would be quite weird; I can conceive of players who would bus here (in scum!Chris's position), but I don't think it's a good play or a likely one. Endangering a killing role is just super risky for scum.
scum!Shin with scum!Chris is the one pairing that seems somewhat possible? That bus by Chris makes somewhat more sense IMO, and at the time it would have probably secured a "lock town" read for Chris if Shin flipped scum.
@Rhand, not missed, just haven't put forth time into finding it yet. (Went to europa park with the kiddos over the weekend.) I mostly phone post and searching/quoting on phones kinda sucks.
Not actively trying to play different, but if you want to share why you think so, I am curious.
@TW, could be that it's an x shot with 50/50 chance to hit. Might not be as swingy as we think.
Big nope on lynching Chris after that claim. He will probably get investigated eventually. *shrug*
Vote Kami Also ok with Hunger. Maybe Tubba? I dont know, I liked his last response to me.
I am not opposed to a Chris lynch, not after his reactions to getting multiple votes. Lots of AtE and fearmongering. And refusing to claim + "teaching town a lesson in humility" is not a series of townie choices.
I disagree. Wisp did practically the same thing. Combined with restricted time + IRL priorities, I don't think this reaction is impossible to come from town. It's not really an uncommon way for town to react in this situation :I
Though refusing to claim, that's really not good.
That's fair, although a lot of my concern was with his lack of claim. Now that he's claimed...I'm trying to figure out if he did it because it's what town should do, or if he saw multiple players criticizing him for it. Either way, the claim itself doesn't move the needle for me, as that's frequently a "safe" scum claim. I went back and reread his posts, and there are so many defeatist, fearmongering, and faux-indifferent remarks that I still feel like there's a good chance he's scum.
Even ignoring some pretty questionable behavior...
It could have been fake d1 and real d2, flavor win considering the dragons gotta grow up
Theres another extra shot going around if that were to flip town hows that change things?
Scum having any additional KP is very powerful making it inconsistent and public seems very balancing on how it can be used
And i know i said ignore tge behavior but god 1053 is such a scum shot there
This is good thinking about the game in general. I'm not sold on XY being scum, but I agree that making scum KP public and inconsistent would be a really good balancing element.
My post wasnt wifom. Someone said I was scum for doing it so I asked what my motive was from their perspective.
I feel like most good players would be able to justify jumping on a wagon quickly (town with the truth, scum with a long list of possible outs), so your response felt like instead of addressing the concern, you were saying "I would have no reason to do this as scum, therefore it's not scummy". So yeah, a combination of wifom and self-meta that didn't really do anything but encourage Rhand to speculate on your scum motives, which isn't productive, imo.
I asked because GJ's previous posts were 2118, 2115, 2112, 2109, 2088, and 2087 (when he actually votes Vaimes). It just felt like you were making a really open-ended comment that could possibly apply to multiple "choices".
I'm down for this, especially with his latest question to Chris in 2402, but since you voted him before that post, why do you want him lynched? Last specific reference I can find from you on him is ~450 posts ago, near the start of the Day.
Also, given your claim: are you immune to killing abilities or NKs only?
How does Chris clarifying this help if he's town? What benefit do you expect to get from his answer if he's scum?
Quote from Kami »
@GJ: Because it was a purely negative reaction. It wasn't a "well, I don't like it, but we'll see what happens" post - it was a "you made a bad choice" post.
Is this a response to me? If so, I guess it's either a difference of opinion or you're pushing him maliciously, as I didn't get that sense at all. More annoyance that XY would fire unilaterally at someone that Winds was townreading.
Quote from Kami »
There's a sort-of-trichotomy with Chris, Shin and X=Y that I think should be resolved today.
scum!Shin and scum!X=y can't coexist.
scum!X=y with scum!Chris would be quite weird; I can conceive of players who would bus here (in scum!Chris's position), but I don't think it's a good play or a likely one. Endangering a killing role is just super risky for scum.
scum!Shin with scum!Chris is the one pairing that seems somewhat possible? That bus by Chris makes somewhat more sense IMO, and at the time it would have probably secured a "lock town" read for Chris if Shin flipped scum.
So which of the three do you think should be lynched to resolve the trichotomy?
I did a count before I placed my vote so that I knew whether or not I was putting you at L-2. I believe it's Hunger from who knows when, Tom in 2375, double Vaimes in 2400, LnG in 2403, and then me in 2404.
Although...I almost didn't vote you because I wanted to hear some responses first, but was concerned we didn't have time for that luxury. If you're around and responding, I can wait until I hear your responses before I decide if I want you to be at claim range.
I like these back to back votes changes, i would be down for a chris lynch if it comes to it. I wanna know about the hunger thing though, why did chris try to create a wagon there?
KamikazeArchon (4): Hunger, Vaimes, Vaimes*, LnGrrrR
Sir Chris (3): Rhand, Thousand_Winds, KamikazeArchon
XequalsY (3): Sir Chris, Shinichi, RE1031
Shinichi (1): XequalsY
Vaimes (1): Gentleman Johnny
Killjoy (1): tomsloger
Rhand (1): Tubba Fett
Not Voting (1): Killjoy, Cantripmancer
V/LA
Hunger until May 28th
With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline is May 30 at 1700 MST. 27.5 hours from now
A reminder about Iron Throne support: All support must be done via PM (either MTGS or discord), and can be changed as many times as you wish up until twilight is announced.
My phone ran out of data so I'm posting this whilst I have some wifi in this train station. I'm back home tomorrow (~20 hours from this post), and I'm gonna devote a lot of time to fully catching up on this game.
Though my scumreads of xequalsy and Hunger are independent of that. It doesn't help that my motivation is through the floor for [redacted].
I really would rather vote Hunger or xequalsy. But I need to be on your train if you're getting lynched.
Not sure how i feel about this coming from you of all people. Ill vote where i see scum, not to move forward someone else win con. They can easily cloud their judgement and focus for their real win con.
At the end of the day I am fine with my effort here. Last game gutted me for multiple reasons. This one? Eh. Not on me if people arent listening just because I cant be A game Chris.
If your scum this will be a first or something for you then.
RE, can you talk about your reads that don't involve the Targaryens?
Do you actually think all 3 of them are wolves? Are you fully caught up after being gone a while?
It's not that I've been gone for a while. I check the thread periodically when I'm not posting. I'm just burnt out, to be honest.
I've read everything, some parts in less detail.
Actually developed a pretty large town and maybe town pile but scrapped it since it was lazy. Essentially consisted of everyone except for Kami, Hunger, xequalsy, Sir Chris (though he's been slightly more townie the past 2 pages), and GJ, with KJ, Tubba, Rhand, and Cantrip being in the maybe pile.
KJ's there mostly for his treatment of Rhand. The hesitation in lynching/pushing Rhand feels genuine.
Rhand I don't feel that strongly about and probably should boot to the PoE. I think I liked that he requested to be added to someone else's house but that was it; scum typically wouldn't want to be forced to communicate with town at night (at least I wouldn't). Something possibly worth noting is Highroller and 1053 expressed suspicion of that slot primarily.
Cantrip's a mechanical read and I'm being lazy at this point. Have half the mind to sheep tom on him though.
I liked Tubba's read of LnGrrrR from day 1 - but otherwise I'm not picking up much.
Shinichi is a pretty agreed upon scumread and I think the split's a result of players who've played with him several times opposed to those who have not. So like, I don't think he's flipping scum, but I'm not confident he's someone I can clear before an inevitable mislynch or misfire. I want him sorted so the players focused on him, if town, can do something productive, or if scum, have fewer places to hide.
I don't think all 3 are wolves. Nah. I'm hoping two are, but I think one's the more realistic number.
Your town pile doesnt seem as large as you made it out to be, seeing as how u have about 9 people in the scum pile. Kjs hesitation could honestly mean that Rhand is scum don' you think? Not sure if I can follow your logic on Rhand if anything his slot shows scum paranoia which why he wants to be in someone elses house.
You really need to drop that cantrip mechanical read its not gonna get u far.
As for me I am town, ill claim if I have to but I rather it not get to that point. Im sure i can prove i am town without having to fall back on my orole to save me.
Doesn't really feel like half the game has any real interest in solving.
Unfortunately not half the game is wolves.
Starting to think the alt win condition thing just isn't a good idea in a mafia game, especially if it leads to situations like the above where RE just wants to kill any of those three from a faction.
It's impacting me a little bit, since there probably is a wolf in Tom, KJ, Shinichi, (other player whose name I know is in one of my target factions), but I don't think it's really feasible for there to be 2+ and my win condition to be achievable so. Meh. 3 other wolves to find, it's just kinda hard to find them when there's a lot of people with other agendas.
Trust me wind I feel the same way, the alt win conditions are a huge distraction. When you have town going for alt win conditions over actual mafia something is just wrong. My agenda is clean, ill vote anyone i think is scum regardless of what involving me they have to do with my alt win con which honestly i forget what it was.
Starting to think the alt win condition thing just isn't a good idea in a mafia game, especially if it leads to situations like the above where RE just wants to kill any of those three from a faction.
You're discrediting my reasoning on xequalsy. You're discrediting the possibility of a scum!Hunger.
If you can't see it, then that's on you. Rather, I think you're blinded by solving via probability of scum in any one house. Which unlike my reasons for scumreading xequalsy, cannot be used by anyone other than yourself and maybe tom.
My lack of interest is not due to the alternate win conditions. And I doubt the lack of solving from half the game has to do with it either.
You asked for reads, I gave them to you. I have players I have no issue killing - and it's those I think are less than town than not - all whom I've listed. And then there are players who, if they are going to lynched - see Chris at L-2 not too long ago, I HAVE to vote.
Game stagnation isn't my fault.
Don't justify lynching someone you think is town just so you can win lol, your far better of a player than that. Your view on chris on makes me not want to vote him cause i cant believe hes scum with this mindset you have on him. Ill stick with xequalsy for now until some other train peeks my interest.
I didn't like the reaction because it felt like he knew it wouldn't flip scum.
Yeah, I got that, but why? (I don't see how you come to that conclusion. What about his reaction is unnatural/points to him knowing 1053 wouldn't flip scum?)
Chris, you didn't answer my question in 2237, and I feel like you're resorting to WIFOM in 2248. You're a strong player; I feel like scum!you could pretty easily jump on any wagon and feel like you could town!justify it if you were really called on it. Why resort to "why would scum!me do this?"
Shinichi, I want you to show me where you've taken stances because I don't feel like you've taken very many. You have a lot of wordy words, but I don't really get a sense of where you stand on many people. Regarding the RE read: it's mechanical. Hence me talking about me doing a Thing.
LnG, did you ever respond to Rhand's 2273? Also, FTR, there is absolutely zero conflict between my alt wincons and my primary wincon of ending scum.
GJ, I still don't like the way you went about "announcing" how my ability might work; it felt like you looking for me to confirm/correct. And the question at the end of this post was the one I didn't see you answer:
GentlemanJ, I'm definitely enjoying King Vaimes, and I still have Chris in my undecided pile. I didn't vote you for that; I voted you because you fished for information two posts in a row, and that's not cool. Why did you jump to the conclusion that I was voting you because of my position on Vaimes/Chris?
===============================
I am not opposed to a Chris lynch, not after his reactions to getting multiple votes. Lots of AtE and fearmongering. And refusing to claim + "teaching town a lesson in humility" is not a series of townie choices.
Weekend was long, and about to go to sleep, but I will definitely be around the next 40ish hours until deadline if anyone wants to ask questions.
I know its a mechancil read, but i rather know where it comes from. There is alot of emchanical reaasons i can think of that explaiin your read on Re. The problem is most of those could mean shes scum too or that your scum. I don't really have many hard stances right now, if i think someones scum ill push them like i am doing with xequalsy.
Starting to think the alt win condition thing just isn't a good idea in a mafia game, especially if it leads to situations like the above where RE just wants to kill any of those three from a faction.
You're discrediting my reasoning on xequalsy. You're discrediting the possibility of a scum!Hunger.
If you can't see it, then that's on you. Rather, I think you're blinded by solving via probability of scum in any one house. Which unlike my reasons for scumreading xequalsy, cannot be used by anyone other than yourself and maybe tom.
My lack of interest is not due to the alternate win conditions. And I doubt the lack of solving from half the game has to do with it either.
You asked for reads, I gave them to you. I have players I have no issue killing - and it's those I think are less than town than not - all whom I've listed. And then there are players who, if they are going to lynched - see Chris at L-2 not too long ago, I HAVE to vote.
Game stagnation isn't my fault.
I think your reasoning on x=y being scum is bad. I think everyone's reasoning on him being scum is bad. Think there's almost 0% chance he's a wolf this game and that's a terrible lynch. Hunger definitely has wolf equity - though I don't think he's a wolf with KA, who I think is a slightly more likely wolf.
I wouldn't be opposed to a Hunger lynch, really, but on a practical level that's not something we're going to get 8 votes for in a day or so. Think if KA and Hunger both die, there's a wolf in those two 95%+ of the time (but not both).
Mechanically he can be scum though, why cant u atleast see that world?
I think your reasoning on x=y being scum is bad. I think everyone's reasoning on him being scum is bad. Think there's almost 0% chance he's a wolf this game and that's a terrible lynch.
yo is the bolded hyperbole?
Eh. Maybe a tiny bit hyperbole, but Prophylaxis reviewed this game, and I think odds there's a 50/50 scum dayvig are pretty ******* close to zero given that. It's so insanely swingy, and restricts so much you can do design wise.
Ehhh gonna ignore this awful attempt at mod gaming, level 10 manipulation has failed on me.
@Chris: I asked you to explain how you went from scum!Shin to town!Shin. Also, given your claim: are you immune to killing abilities or NKs only?
@GJ: Because it was a purely negative reaction. It wasn't a "well, I don't like it, but we'll see what happens" post - it was a "you made a bad choice" post.
I dislike Chris's reaction to wagoning here, but I'm not sure it's an alignment-related dislike. I get annoyed when people state or imply "if you were good you wouldn't kill me here", so that may be coloring my perception. The claim itself is mechanically null - we have extra kills, which could be town or scum, so town or scum BP are both plausible. It's a relatively safe scum claim too, and we have no way of using the claim to confirm anything.
There's a sort-of-trichotomy with Chris, Shin and X=Y that I think should be resolved today.
scum!Shin and scum!X=y can't coexist.
scum!X=y with scum!Chris would be quite weird; I can conceive of players who would bus here (in scum!Chris's position), but I don't think it's a good play or a likely one. Endangering a killing role is just super risky for scum.
scum!Shin with scum!Chris is the one pairing that seems somewhat possible? That bus by Chris makes somewhat more sense IMO, and at the time it would have probably secured a "lock town" read for Chris if Shin flipped scum.
The XY/shin interaction I understand
The chris one not so much, at game start he went hard on me. Either we're town vs town or hes scum. I am never scum with how he forced all the eyes on me cause I know i aint scum
@Chris: I asked you to explain how you went from scum!Shin to town!Shin. Also, given your claim: are you immune to killing abilities or NKs only?
@GJ: Because it was a purely negative reaction. It wasn't a "well, I don't like it, but we'll see what happens" post - it was a "you made a bad choice" post.
I dislike Chris's reaction to wagoning here, but I'm not sure it's an alignment-related dislike. I get annoyed when people state or imply "if you were good you wouldn't kill me here", so that may be coloring my perception. The claim itself is mechanically null - we have extra kills, which could be town or scum, so town or scum BP are both plausible. It's a relatively safe scum claim too, and we have no way of using the claim to confirm anything.
There's a sort-of-trichotomy with Chris, Shin and X=Y that I think should be resolved today.
scum!Shin and scum!X=y can't coexist.
scum!X=y with scum!Chris would be quite weird; I can conceive of players who would bus here (in scum!Chris's position), but I don't think it's a good play or a likely one. Endangering a killing role is just super risky for scum.
scum!Shin with scum!Chris is the one pairing that seems somewhat possible? That bus by Chris makes somewhat more sense IMO, and at the time it would have probably secured a "lock town" read for Chris if Shin flipped scum.
Except...
Shin > xy is only if you explicitly trust Rod's claim of it being a straight up 50% shot. Like, if you think there is a chance xy is scum, clearly he could be fabricating or leaving out parts of the conditions with which his kills hit. It's only a dichotomy if you have information on the truthiness of the capabilities of the Day kill. i.e. you know he is town so don't doubt his claim, or you are scum buddies and know how it works.
I do like that if you flip scum I think that Chris is most likely clear and one of shin/xy are likely scum though.
Am I being crazy here to doubt xy being fully truthful?
In general, people calling xy for sure town is giving my Playstation vibes. Playstation was the last shadow-hosted game and had a scum day kill that would have walked to end game for the same clear had he not been modkilled. Especially considering we have an extra Night death, why would you just assume he is town? I mean, I don't really want to lynch there regardless, because I think it's mostly self-resolving as we get more info or the scum is forced to NK him, but the lack of paranoia seems weird to me.
@Chris - You said we would know why you didn't want to reveal flavor/role when you did eventually claim for, "weird reasons"...bulletproof - sure, if town more valuable to remain unclaimed, but the flavor thing I don't really get. Also, not super keen on you outing our faction...
Shinichi, I want you to show me where you've taken stances because I don't feel like you've taken very many. You have a lot of wordy words, but I don't really get a sense of where you stand on many people. Regarding the RE read: it's mechanical. Hence me talking about me doing a Thing.
I know its a mechancil read, but i rather know where it comes from. There is alot of emchanical reaasons i can think of that explaiin your read on Re. The problem is most of those could mean shes scum too or that your scum. I don't really have many hard stances right now, if i think someones scum ill push them like i am doing with xequalsy.
Caution on your part is understandable and completely warranted. As for your stances, it sounds like you're saying that you don't often commit in your attacks/suspicions, but push hard when you do, which is something I can accept, although I don't like it because I feel like it makes you harder to read.
Also Shinichi, I'm not sure what to make of you saying at the start of 2416 that RE is probably town unless I flip scum and then telling RE at the end of that same post that she should drop her mechanical read of me because it's not going to get her far. It feels like you don't believe one of those perspectives. A question: define a "mechanical read" for me?
Shin > xy is only if you explicitly trust Rod's claim of it being a straight up 50% shot. Like, if you think there is a chance xy is scum, clearly he could be fabricating or leaving out parts of the conditions with which his kills hit. It's only a dichotomy if you have information on the truthiness of the capabilities of the Day kill. i.e. you know he is town so don't doubt his claim, or you are scum buddies and know how it works.
So you're proposing a scenario where XY has a daykill with special conditions, that he's scum with Shin, and that he knew that Shin would not satisfy those conditions and that the shot was guaranteed to fail?
That hadn't even occurred to me, and I don't think it's a plausible scenario. We know there's a daykill, we know it doesn't always work; that's already sufficiently complex without having conditionals attached to the kill.
And we know it's not just a matter of "he just didn't really use the shot D1", because the mod responded - and notably didn't respond when someone else tried to do the same thing.
@Cantrip: For your other questions/comments:
I am not going to address what I'm looking for in Chris's response. You should know not to ask questions like that.
On the shot-response from Thousand: I can see how you could view that response differently. It's not a matter of what is in the response, it's a matter of what was missing, and expectations are certainly subjective.
Of the three, I am approximately XY ~= Shin > Chris. Both on scumminess and info-delivery. But I'd be fine with any of them. We're down to the last day again, so it comes down to who we can get votes on.
@Hunger: I agree that XY could totally be lying about aspects of his ability, but it's not the ability that makes me think he's more likely town than scum. It's his target choice. I just don't see scum making their life difficult by shooting a lurker who hadn't come up when there were so many other "good" targets being discussed PLUS a few wagons to choose from. Again, other than the outside chance that scum rolecopped 1053 and decided his ability was just too dangerous to continue existing, but then I still feel like scum would have done more pre-justifying than "too busy, lol-shoot 1053". YMMV, but that's how I feel.
Also, I don't remember anyone else, but Tom, at minimum, has mused on possible ways that XY's ability could be different than claimed and thus scummier.
Shin > xy is only if you explicitly trust Rod's claim of it being a straight up 50% shot. Like, if you think there is a chance xy is scum, clearly he could be fabricating or leaving out parts of the conditions with which his kills hit. It's only a dichotomy if you have information on the truthiness of the capabilities of the Day kill. i.e. you know he is town so don't doubt his claim, or you are scum buddies and know how it works.
So you're proposing a scenario where XY has a daykill with special conditions, that he's scum with Shin, and that he knew that Shin would not satisfy those conditions and that the shot was guaranteed to fail?
That hadn't even occurred to me, and I don't think it's a plausible scenario. We know there's a daykill, we know it doesn't always work; that's already sufficiently complex without having conditionals attached to the kill.
And we know it's not just a matter of "he just didn't really use the shot D1", because the mod responded - and notably didn't respond when someone else tried to do the same thing.
I disagree. I could very easily see, for example, a scum role that said "Designate target player in-thread; if that player is town, they will be killed; if they're scum, the ability will fail." And that's just with 10 seconds of thought (although with 10 more seconds of thought, I realize something like that would never work in a full-reveal game, but something not alignment-based, such as a kill succeeding/failing dependent on faction (and XY knowing Shin's faction), would). I'm sure there are other possibilities out there that fit, and I'm surprised that you're shutting that down so hard.
Quote from Kami »
@Cantrip: For your other questions/comments:
I am not going to address what I'm looking for in Chris's response. You should know not to ask questions like that.
I guess I'll come back to this after Chris responds, then.
I am liking tom better for having the same opinion on the previous page about Wind's lack of paranoia around the alignment of the Daykill role as what I posted in my last post.
Man, this Kami wagon sort of feels like it is coming together way too easily, has anyone even given a reason for a vote on him? I know I said I would do more digging and try to provide more reasoning when I voted him before I went V/LA, so I'm partly to blame, but it's sort of giving me some bad vibes. Without doing a PBPA, my reasoning is essentially his posts have all felt...uneventful to me. I don't get the feeling he is trying to solve or make any actual pushes. His recent trichotomy post, while I disagree with it, is the only thing that has felt like he has any life. Otherwise everything I remember is just random questions that have no real direction. I also thought his Chris vote felt super opportunistic.
Also, there seem to be a lot of people mentioning me in their would lynch/scum piles. Anyone have any real reasoning or is it all just because I have been absent and LAL is easy? (besides RE's Targ wincon)
That's likely all I have time for today, but I should be around most of the day tomorrow.
Shin > xy is only if you explicitly trust Rod's claim of it being a straight up 50% shot. Like, if you think there is a chance xy is scum, clearly he could be fabricating or leaving out parts of the conditions with which his kills hit. It's only a dichotomy if you have information on the truthiness of the capabilities of the Day kill. i.e. you know he is town so don't doubt his claim, or you are scum buddies and know how it works.
So you're proposing a scenario where XY has a daykill with special conditions, that he's scum with Shin, and that he knew that Shin would not satisfy those conditions and that the shot was guaranteed to fail?
That hadn't even occurred to me, and I don't think it's a plausible scenario. We know there's a daykill, we know it doesn't always work; that's already sufficiently complex without having conditionals attached to the kill.
And we know it's not just a matter of "he just didn't really use the shot D1", because the mod responded - and notably didn't respond when someone else tried to do the same thing.
I disagree. I could very easily see, for example, a scum role that said "Designate target player in-thread; if that player is town, they will be killed; if they're scum, the ability will fail."
I've never seen such an ability. Have you?
I can certainly imagine an infinite variety of ways to set up the hypothetical, but being able to imagine it doesn't make it plausible. I can't think of a single conditional daykill in years of playing mafia. So yeah, I'm discounting that as not worth giving much thought to.
In general, people calling xy for sure town is giving my Playstation vibes. Playstation was the last shadow-hosted game and had a scum day kill that would have walked to end game for the same clear had he not been modkilled. Especially considering we have an extra Night death, why would you just assume he is town? I mean, I don't really want to lynch there regardless, because I think it's mostly self-resolving as we get more info or the scum is forced to NK him, but the lack of paranoia seems weird to me.
@Chris - You said we would know why you didn't want to reveal flavor/role when you did eventually claim for, "weird reasons"...bulletproof - sure, if town more valuable to remain unclaimed, but the flavor thing I don't really get. Also, not super keen on you outing our faction...
What do you think about the fact that they didn’t kill him? That plus the extra nk is bugging me. Like, you CC a vig by vigging them. Why kill Last or Highroller there over a very likely PR?
I am not going to answer mechanisms about my role further. Also Kami I already answered your question so...
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I'm willing to reconsider if you can show me evidence of conditional daykills on MTGS.
how important is it being day?
Ive seen midnight desperado (token power), prettg sure there wad a kill in one ofbthe rock paper scissors games. Iirc one of the star treks had a kill that only hit humans
I'm willing to reconsider if you can show me evidence of conditional daykills on MTGS.
how important is it being day?
Ive seen midnight desperado (token power), prettg sure there wad a kill in one ofbthe rock paper scissors games. Iirc one of the star treks had a kill that only hit humans
I think daykill is a +complexity so yeah I think that matters. What was midnight desperado?
With Kami/Rhand/GJ, I just have absolutely no townreads there.
For Kami specifically, I can usually see the gears turning in his head when he's town, and here he's just sort of popping up every now and then with no momentum that I can detect.
I am liking tom better for having the same opinion on the previous page about Wind's lack of paranoia around the alignment of the Daykill role as what I posted in my last post.
Man, this Kami wagon sort of feels like it is coming together way too easily, has anyone even given a reason for a vote on him? I know I said I would do more digging and try to provide more reasoning when I voted him before I went V/LA, so I'm partly to blame, but it's sort of giving me some bad vibes. Without doing a PBPA, my reasoning is essentially his posts have all felt...uneventful to me. I don't get the feeling he is trying to solve or make any actual pushes. His recent trichotomy post, while I disagree with it, is the only thing that has felt like he has any life. Otherwise everything I remember is just random questions that have no real direction. I also thought his Chris vote felt super opportunistic.
Also, there seem to be a lot of people mentioning me in their would lynch/scum piles. Anyone have any real reasoning or is it all just because I have been absent and LAL is easy? (besides RE's Targ wincon)
That's likely all I have time for today, but I should be around most of the day tomorrow.
A lot of that sums up why I'm voting him.
Don't really feel like he's tried to find wolves, feel like he's just existing.
The trichotomy post you mention feels like an attempt to chain lynches in a way that felt kinda gross.
Also have a lot of town reads, and when considering some unaligns I think there's pretty much no world where at least one of you two isn't a wolf.
@Cantrip - What three posts in the game do you most feel are alignment indicative for the person that posted them?
Do you have any reads that are sharply against the grain? A non-consensus read either in the town or scum direction that you feel quite strongly about? Why?
If I fired a barrage of bullets into: [Kami, Hunger, Rhand, Tubba], how many wolves do you think die?
I've gone back and forth on Chris a lot, but I'm at him being probably town now. Think him being bulletproof makes sense with the way he called me out on my bait of the wolves being fake. Think he summons up more wim as a wolf here, think his kind of disappointment/disgust at town rings true.
I dunno, I could be getting snowed, it's possible I should stick to my initial read that Chris just has too much ego and pride as town to go down without kicking and screaming, but it's where I'm at. Everyone has bad games I guess.
Also, there seem to be a lot of people mentioning me in their would lynch/scum piles. Anyone have any real reasoning or is it all just because I have been absent and LAL is easy? (besides RE's Targ wincon)
It's the manner in which you are playing. In that the content of your posts often cover topics that no longer need another voice.
My read of Shin is dependent on x=y being scum, yeah. I still don't think Shin added up day 1 (although appears a bit better today - starting pitcher theory CONFIRMED) and with the no progression shot + the disappearing act of x=y yeah!
I am still tentatively OK with KA btw. I guess I get the suspicion since early last game Kami pinged me too but getting a pretty similar feel from last game where he was town.
Also yes, I lol'd at your bluff.
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@Rhand, likely I am more annoyed than anything. Too many lurkers, not enough action. Though I could probably do with a bit easier boldness here and otherwise
I will try to find time to pull up the actual post later
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Also really wanna kill GJ.
I need six votes.
@Chris: I asked you to explain how you went from scum!Shin to town!Shin. Also, given your claim: are you immune to killing abilities or NKs only?
@GJ: Because it was a purely negative reaction. It wasn't a "well, I don't like it, but we'll see what happens" post - it was a "you made a bad choice" post.
I dislike Chris's reaction to wagoning here, but I'm not sure it's an alignment-related dislike. I get annoyed when people state or imply "if you were good you wouldn't kill me here", so that may be coloring my perception. The claim itself is mechanically null - we have extra kills, which could be town or scum, so town or scum BP are both plausible. It's a relatively safe scum claim too, and we have no way of using the claim to confirm anything.
There's a sort-of-trichotomy with Chris, Shin and X=Y that I think should be resolved today.
scum!Shin and scum!X=y can't coexist.
scum!X=y with scum!Chris would be quite weird; I can conceive of players who would bus here (in scum!Chris's position), but I don't think it's a good play or a likely one. Endangering a killing role is just super risky for scum.
scum!Shin with scum!Chris is the one pairing that seems somewhat possible? That bus by Chris makes somewhat more sense IMO, and at the time it would have probably secured a "lock town" read for Chris if Shin flipped scum.
Not actively trying to play different, but if you want to share why you think so, I am curious.
@TW, could be that it's an x shot with 50/50 chance to hit. Might not be as swingy as we think.
Big nope on lynching Chris after that claim. He will probably get investigated eventually. *shrug*
Vote Kami Also ok with Hunger. Maybe Tubba? I dont know, I liked his last response to me.
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This is good thinking about the game in general. I'm not sold on XY being scum, but I agree that making scum KP public and inconsistent would be a really good balancing element.
I feel like most good players would be able to justify jumping on a wagon quickly (town with the truth, scum with a long list of possible outs), so your response felt like instead of addressing the concern, you were saying "I would have no reason to do this as scum, therefore it's not scummy". So yeah, a combination of wifom and self-meta that didn't really do anything but encourage Rhand to speculate on your scum motives, which isn't productive, imo.
I asked because GJ's previous posts were 2118, 2115, 2112, 2109, 2088, and 2087 (when he actually votes Vaimes). It just felt like you were making a really open-ended comment that could possibly apply to multiple "choices".
I'm down for this, especially with his latest question to Chris in 2402, but since you voted him before that post, why do you want him lynched? Last specific reference I can find from you on him is ~450 posts ago, near the start of the Day.
How does Chris clarifying this help if he's town? What benefit do you expect to get from his answer if he's scum?
Is this a response to me? If so, I guess it's either a difference of opinion or you're pushing him maliciously, as I didn't get that sense at all. More annoyance that XY would fire unilaterally at someone that Winds was townreading.
So which of the three do you think should be lynched to resolve the trichotomy?
Vote KamikazeArchon
That's L-2.
(Cantrip, I'll address your other things in a bit)
Although...I almost didn't vote you because I wanted to hear some responses first, but was concerned we didn't have time for that luxury. If you're around and responding, I can wait until I hear your responses before I decide if I want you to be at claim range.
Unvote
vote kj
?
the behavior is kinda suspicious, it could have something to do with an alt win con or an ability.
did you eventualyl claim in the chat at all? During the night i mean?
I like these back to back votes changes, i would be down for a chris lynch if it comes to it. I wanna know about the hunger thing though, why did chris try to create a wagon there?
Why did u follow him as well
Nah, not interested in voting KJ at this time.
Shinichi, no response to what I posted in 2382/follow up on your own question?
LnG, was your @Rhand in 2403 referring to his question about post ranges for Johnny defending Chris or something else?
-Cersei Lannister
KamikazeArchon (4): Hunger, Vaimes, Vaimes*, LnGrrrR
Sir Chris (3): Rhand, Thousand_Winds, KamikazeArchon
XequalsY (3): Sir Chris, Shinichi, RE1031
Shinichi (1): XequalsY
Vaimes (1): Gentleman Johnny
Killjoy (1): tomsloger
Rhand (1): Tubba Fett
Not Voting (1): Killjoy, Cantripmancer
V/LA
Hunger until May 28th
With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline is May 30 at 1700 MST. 27.5 hours from now
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My phone ran out of data so I'm posting this whilst I have some wifi in this train station. I'm back home tomorrow (~20 hours from this post), and I'm gonna devote a lot of time to fully catching up on this game.
Cantrip, you be around tomorrow? I noticed a few things on re-read I wanted to talk to you about but need to think some things over first.
Very low unless cantrip flips scum, then ill maybe look into that world. For now Re is town and I dont think anything could really change my mind.
Not sure how i feel about this coming from you of all people. Ill vote where i see scum, not to move forward someone else win con. They can easily cloud their judgement and focus for their real win con.
If your scum this will be a first or something for you then.
Your town pile doesnt seem as large as you made it out to be, seeing as how u have about 9 people in the scum pile. Kjs hesitation could honestly mean that Rhand is scum don' you think? Not sure if I can follow your logic on Rhand if anything his slot shows scum paranoia which why he wants to be in someone elses house.
You really need to drop that cantrip mechanical read its not gonna get u far.
As for me I am town, ill claim if I have to but I rather it not get to that point. Im sure i can prove i am town without having to fall back on my orole to save me.
Trust me wind I feel the same way, the alt win conditions are a huge distraction. When you have town going for alt win conditions over actual mafia something is just wrong. My agenda is clean, ill vote anyone i think is scum regardless of what involving me they have to do with my alt win con which honestly i forget what it was.
Don't justify lynching someone you think is town just so you can win lol, your far better of a player than that. Your view on chris on makes me not want to vote him cause i cant believe hes scum with this mindset you have on him. Ill stick with xequalsy for now until some other train peeks my interest.
I know its a mechancil read, but i rather know where it comes from. There is alot of emchanical reaasons i can think of that explaiin your read on Re. The problem is most of those could mean shes scum too or that your scum. I don't really have many hard stances right now, if i think someones scum ill push them like i am doing with xequalsy.
Mechanically he can be scum though, why cant u atleast see that world?
Ehhh gonna ignore this awful attempt at mod gaming, level 10 manipulation has failed on me.
Gotta pick 1, preferably i would go for a rhand lynch not a GJ lynch.
The XY/shin interaction I understand
The chris one not so much, at game start he went hard on me. Either we're town vs town or hes scum. I am never scum with how he forced all the eyes on me cause I know i aint scum
what was ur question though?
Shin > xy is only if you explicitly trust Rod's claim of it being a straight up 50% shot. Like, if you think there is a chance xy is scum, clearly he could be fabricating or leaving out parts of the conditions with which his kills hit. It's only a dichotomy if you have information on the truthiness of the capabilities of the Day kill. i.e. you know he is town so don't doubt his claim, or you are scum buddies and know how it works.
I do like that if you flip scum I think that Chris is most likely clear and one of shin/xy are likely scum though.
Am I being crazy here to doubt xy being fully truthful?
@Chris - You said we would know why you didn't want to reveal flavor/role when you did eventually claim for, "weird reasons"...bulletproof - sure, if town more valuable to remain unclaimed, but the flavor thing I don't really get. Also, not super keen on you outing our faction...
Caution on your part is understandable and completely warranted. As for your stances, it sounds like you're saying that you don't often commit in your attacks/suspicions, but push hard when you do, which is something I can accept, although I don't like it because I feel like it makes you harder to read.
Also Shinichi, I'm not sure what to make of you saying at the start of 2416 that RE is probably town unless I flip scum and then telling RE at the end of that same post that she should drop her mechanical read of me because it's not going to get her far. It feels like you don't believe one of those perspectives. A question: define a "mechanical read" for me?
That hadn't even occurred to me, and I don't think it's a plausible scenario. We know there's a daykill, we know it doesn't always work; that's already sufficiently complex without having conditionals attached to the kill.
And we know it's not just a matter of "he just didn't really use the shot D1", because the mod responded - and notably didn't respond when someone else tried to do the same thing.
@Cantrip: For your other questions/comments:
I am not going to address what I'm looking for in Chris's response. You should know not to ask questions like that.
On the shot-response from Thousand: I can see how you could view that response differently. It's not a matter of what is in the response, it's a matter of what was missing, and expectations are certainly subjective.
Of the three, I am approximately XY ~= Shin > Chris. Both on scumminess and info-delivery. But I'd be fine with any of them. We're down to the last day again, so it comes down to who we can get votes on.
unvote
vote XequalsY
Also, I don't remember anyone else, but Tom, at minimum, has mused on possible ways that XY's ability could be different than claimed and thus scummier.
I guess I'll come back to this after Chris responds, then.
In the meantime:
Vote: Kamikaze Archon
That's L-2 again.
Man, this Kami wagon sort of feels like it is coming together way too easily, has anyone even given a reason for a vote on him? I know I said I would do more digging and try to provide more reasoning when I voted him before I went V/LA, so I'm partly to blame, but it's sort of giving me some bad vibes. Without doing a PBPA, my reasoning is essentially his posts have all felt...uneventful to me. I don't get the feeling he is trying to solve or make any actual pushes. His recent trichotomy post, while I disagree with it, is the only thing that has felt like he has any life. Otherwise everything I remember is just random questions that have no real direction. I also thought his Chris vote felt super opportunistic.
Also, there seem to be a lot of people mentioning me in their would lynch/scum piles. Anyone have any real reasoning or is it all just because I have been absent and LAL is easy? (besides RE's Targ wincon)
That's likely all I have time for today, but I should be around most of the day tomorrow.
I can certainly imagine an infinite variety of ways to set up the hypothetical, but being able to imagine it doesn't make it plausible. I can't think of a single conditional daykill in years of playing mafia. So yeah, I'm discounting that as not worth giving much thought to.
What do you think about the fact that they didn’t kill him? That plus the extra nk is bugging me. Like, you CC a vig by vigging them. Why kill Last or Highroller there over a very likely PR?
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Ive seen midnight desperado (token power), prettg sure there wad a kill in one ofbthe rock paper scissors games. Iirc one of the star treks had a kill that only hit humans
Also ripperoni mtgs
For Kami specifically, I can usually see the gears turning in his head when he's town, and here he's just sort of popping up every now and then with no momentum that I can detect.
A lot of that sums up why I'm voting him.
Don't really feel like he's tried to find wolves, feel like he's just existing.
The trichotomy post you mention feels like an attempt to chain lynches in a way that felt kinda gross.
Also have a lot of town reads, and when considering some unaligns I think there's pretty much no world where at least one of you two isn't a wolf.
So, well. My vote.
@Cantrip, yes that was towards Rhand re: GJ chainsawing Chris.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Do you have any reads that are sharply against the grain? A non-consensus read either in the town or scum direction that you feel quite strongly about? Why?
If I fired a barrage of bullets into: [Kami, Hunger, Rhand, Tubba], how many wolves do you think die?
Answer my question
Quite possibly, yeah.
I dunno, I could be getting snowed, it's possible I should stick to my initial read that Chris just has too much ego and pride as town to go down without kicking and screaming, but it's where I'm at. Everyone has bad games I guess.
~~
Not going to be around for phase change. Will move my vote in the morning if it helps a lynch be secured.
I am still tentatively OK with KA btw. I guess I get the suspicion since early last game Kami pinged me too but getting a pretty similar feel from last game where he was town.
Also yes, I lol'd at your bluff.
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2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
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2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I’m not getting the Kami wagon. Looks like a bunch of shrugvotes.
I will try to find time to pull up the actual post later
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