Sorry, I had a passenger clinging to me this afternoon and couldn’t get rid of her and spended the bit of time I had on my other mafia game.
If I have connection during the morning sailing tomorrow morning, I will catch up.
Your guys mental conceptions of me does not match reality. For example look at DitF, I was shotgun on the EtR/Tau thing and rode it harder than anyone townie except KA.
Anyway I didn't express it as clearly as later people did but in my immediate hop onto KA I did flag that claiming faction-less wasn't a scum indicator.
Yeah no. Having no faction is a big red flag for me and claiming to just have a town win con means I'mvery sure you're leaving information out. Means you've got something weird going on. Maybe not scum (as lacking a faction doesn't point to that) but worrying me.
@RE as either alignment I'd expect you to engage. As town I'd less expect you to be as worried about defending the nuances of your read as opposed to the nuances of DV's behavior.
And cool, I'm glad we're on the same page on LnG. It's not scummy but it feels 3rd party-ish.
@Wisp why would you need LnG's flip before assessing who hopped on his wagon?
For the record, I know D_V's done this exact same thing as town. Jumping on someone (who was town) for misreading one of their posts, or remembering something about them incorrectly and using it against them. They're an OMGUS-y player. I relate.
The post was worded in a way that made me view it as something that wouldn't help town, but I can believe that there was another reason for it now that it's been explained.
And as I've said earlier, D_V would be a townlean if there was less focus on the mechanical portion of the game. The vote on me's not entirely wasted, from my perspective at least.
This reeks of too much information to me. You know I'm town, you are looking to give me a town read, and you are saying "I'd give DV a town read if he would stop being mechanical". On its face it seems like a fair statement, but its not a fair statement. The game has been going on for a day now, and on top of that a majority of my content posts have been mechanical. If you throw all of that out I'm not sure how you could ever get anything that makes you want to town lean me. Or even gives a read at all.
Refer to the post above. I dislike giving townleans to people who talk mostly mechanics. Since technically it is NAI.
On top of that with your last post you clearly haven't read a post still in question with your comment about my ability to read Shinichi.
Yeah, I missed that one. My bad. Likely because I was on mobile, but that's not an excuse.
...
I don't think this response is going to be helpful for anyone. And I don't want this to escalate to the same levels in the previous game. So if I don't respond to any of your other posts regarding your read on me, it's because you are likely going to believe what you want to believe with disregard for anything I say afterwards. All I'll say is this method of catching scum has been proven to be unreliable for you, referring to your read on Scarlet in Guilty Crown Mafia on MAL.
It feels so accommodating and trying to get out on good terms. Maybe RE did develop a town read during the exchange, but it feels like the way you'd handled someone who was a strong town read, not someone you had a gut read on but didn't have justification for a fleshed out read.
No solid dcum reads yet. I have been skimming. Scum reads require in depth thinking.
Tom is likely town too.
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Rules correction makes this less likely that LnG is an anti town role though I still think that's a somewhat likely scenario.
Anyway votes on me, Vaimes looks fine, his is more about the RE/DV stuff and then my LnG vote. DV similarly looks fine. LnG on the other hand seems more focused on my vote on him. Which is understandable since it was on him. But my vote was (I felt) pretty obviously not a bold declaration of scumminess for not having a faction. So it's kind of in the neutralish territory.
KA has been voting me for slightly shoddy reasoning for ages and RE had a naked vote on me. So bleh.
Anyway of the non voters tom expressed suspicion of me (semmingly) for the vote. Which is bad to separate mine out while saying he expects it from others. Think it's possible all of these are town. To many people aren't posting.
Grape, as someone who’s been on the receiving end of DV’s uh, focus, several times now (when we’re both town), I can say it’s pretty NAI to want to appease him.
I’ve always townread him for it so it’s definitely something that will eventually get stale, but I don’t understand why this specific situation is supposed to be scummy when it literally happens every game DV is in.
Grape, as someone who’s been on the receiving end of DV’s uh, focus, several times now (when we’re both town), I can say it’s pretty NAI to want to appease him.
I’ve always townread him for it so it’s definitely something that will eventually get stale, but I don’t understand why this specific situation is supposed to be scummy when it literally happens every game DV is in.
I was making a case about how appeasement vs engagement is about personality and I'd expect RE to lean towards the appeasement side, but the issue stemmed from her starting from a place of appeasement, but turns out I had the timeline jumbled in my head.
This was where my interest kicked in:
Quote from REs Post 304 »
For the record, I know D_V's done this exact same thing as town. Jumping on someone (who was town) for misreading one of their posts, or remembering something about them incorrectly and using it against them. They're an OMGUS-y player. I relate.
The post was worded in a way that made me view it as something that wouldn't help town, but I can believe that there was another reason for it now that it's been explained.
And as I've said earlier, D_V would be a townlean if there was less focus on the mechanical portion of the game. The vote on me's not entirely wasted, from my perspective at least.
my interest was sparked by the DV read part of it. I'd been trying to figure out where the town feels on DV were coming from as I wasn't seeing it. This read felt fake and it felt like she was trying to get into his good books. I completely forgot this had come in an exchange where she'd aggro'd him which was here:
I'd propose that we keep these things underwraps this way we can simply evaluate roles.
The same as usual, no? If someome's about to be lynched, they claim, and we re-evaluate if need be.
No, why would we?
Same as above, really.
I'm not sure why you're trying to dictate this discussion over scumhunting. I see little benefit in claiming our flavor. Perhaps you're attempting to flavor-fish in hopes it helps with your alt win con?
~~
@Grape
Thanks! Likewise. I was nominated via an anonymous voting process, but I think it's pretty obviously so if you were to look at my games on my homesite that I was voted for my town game, not so much scum. My scum game's significantly weaker than my town, due to a combo of anxiety + boredom, but certain things have improved since then, like the time it takes for my anxiety to kick in (if it does). Wolfing during shorter phases appeals to me, and I'm slowly beginning to enjoy it again with the help of MU's turbos.
When I get back onto the comp, I can link a couple of more recent wolf games if need be.
Well that's a solid plummet for you.
Yeah that's not what I'm talking about at all.
I'm saying when people are claiming should they also claim their Faction/Names of Characters.
I'm proposing that they don't so that alternate win conditions don't have any effect.
In fact I say that in the quote you have. Its like you read my post, quit reading when you saw that you could make an attack and didn't read the entire thing.
Vote RE
Anyway still think her read feels fake but the appeasement makes more sense now given what the inciting incident was (the miscommunication and not the fake-ish town lean that isn't really a town lean).
And I realize you're all going to say well she spends most of it talking about the initiating incident but my interest was in the last line. It just feels so "leave me alone, townie".
Rules correction makes this less likely that LnG is an anti town role though I still think that's a somewhat likely scenario.
Anyway votes on me, Vaimes looks fine, his is more about the RE/DV stuff and then my LnG vote. DV similarly looks fine. LnG on the other hand seems more focused on my vote on him. Which is understandable since it was on him. But my vote was (I felt) pretty obviously not a bold declaration of scumminess for not having a faction. So it's kind of in the neutralish territory.
KA has been voting me for slightly shoddy reasoning for ages and RE had a naked vote on me. So bleh.
Anyway of the non voters tom expressed suspicion of me (semmingly) for the vote. Which is bad to separate mine out while saying he expects it from others. Think it's possible all of these are town. To many people aren't posting.
why is it bad? They're all terrible the type of player to jump on that sort of thing regardless of alignment
Because A you should know I tend to do that as well, and B I explicitly talked about how I didn't think it was scum indicative by LnG but voted anyway. I wouldn't really object to pushes that were say I was scummy for hunting 3rd parties but that's not what you were saying.
No what i was saying is that wagon looked like scum bait and you jumping on was the least excusable
Which of those are you arguing against?
Both and neither? I agree it's a wagon scum were likely to jump on, but it's also objectively suspect for a player to have none of a faction, alt win con, or way to gain either. Maybe he's a random pseudo vanilla, or maybe he's a strong info role and isolated to avoid sharing information with scum in faction chats. Both those are plausible. Most likely to me though is that he's some kind of neutral that is based on being a loner. And unless LnG towns it up I'm not really comfortable with him living to end game. Obviously we're a long way from that at this stage though.
I guess I'm arguing my was obviously not least excusable since I acknowledged it wasn't scum indicative.
No what i was saying is that wagon looked like scum bait and you jumping on was the least excusable
Which of those are you arguing against?
Both and neither? I agree it's a wagon scum were likely to jump on, but it's also objectively suspect for a player to have none of a faction, alt win con, or way to gain either. Maybe he's a random pseudo vanilla, or maybe he's a strong info role and isolated to avoid sharing information with scum in faction chats. Both those are plausible. Most likely to me though is that he's some kind of neutral that is based on being a loner. And unless LnG towns it up I'm not really comfortable with him living to end game. Obviously we're a long way from that at this stage though.
I guess I'm arguing my was obviously not least excusable since I acknowledged it wasn't scum indicative.
It’s less like hunting and more like having a turkey run out in front of your car.
It wasn’t a scummy look for Lng, but it was a shady one. In a game with this many angles, it’s not far fetched for there to be a neutral faction with anti-town elements.
@Tom
You voted Shinichi earlier, then later on said you had no idea why anyone thought he was scum. What’s up with that?
It feels so accommodating and trying to get out on good terms. Maybe RE did develop a town read during the exchange, but it feels like the way you'd handled someone who was a strong town read, not someone you had a gut read on but didn't have justification for a fleshed out read.
Why wouldn't I try to get out on good terms?
Would you prefer it if I went about it differently, like aggravating him? I made a mistake. Rather than let ego get in the way and try to pin it on someone or something else, it's better to accept it and move on. Regardless of my actual read on him, there was little to gain from continuing to fight with him over his read on me.
I thought this was well-known from people who've played with me before, but I read primarily off gut.
Also, while my initial vote on you was naked, I later explained it. You also responded to that explanation. But wagon formation may be in your favor - as you gained votes rather quickly.
Also, y'all are funny. I pointed out that LnGrrrR's claim was a very weird move as scum, before Sir Chris did.
Also, I think Wisp is scum. He's playing extremely ineffectively. Developing a theory that he may be bussing Shinichi, or someone, based on the lack of backlash from the people he's suspecting and pushing.
Will properly catch up now.
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Also, I think Wisp is scum. He's playing extremely ineffectively. Developing a theory that he may be bussing Shinichi, or someone, based on the lack of backlash from the people he's suspecting and pushing.
@DV LnG as top town? Can you explain why? Why low on KJ?
@RE Exactly because it was a mistake and should have been easy to solve, it "feels" off to me that you went out of your way to make this convoluted kind of town lean but not really a town lean. The rest of the way you handled it is in line with how I'd expect you to, but not the "gut then walked back" read part of it.
@tom I was responding to what he claimed to be true because it makes me think the withheld information is dangerous. I get that he provided it absolutely lacking any guile, but that doesn't reassure me in the slightest.
@DV Tubba's answer is basically it, but I really wasn't scum hunting before that. I was town hunting and when something else threw itself in my path and demanded attention.
@Grape, THERE IS NO WITHHELD INFO. Again, you don't think I have played enough to probably lay low if I was a neutral?
Also... DV claims neutral, then walks it back after a post from Vaimes. And GF... proceeds to ignore it entirely I guess from my quick skim.
To recap: DV says he is a neutral, lists abilities he says thinks could help town win, and GF doesn't comment at all. (Yes, he did first post after all that, but it was only a page later )
Me: State that I am faction less, GF says it isn't scummy but votes me anyways, continues to call for my death.
because DV said he was meme'ing before I posted and given it was a first post I pretty much believe it was not worth commenting on. Fun fact: I actually have a read this game that is partially tied to that post.
And no I don't really give you the benefit of the doubt that you'd lay low as a third party. And there are so many possibilities two obvious ones to me are: you may not have realized claiming no faction wasn't laying low or you may have wanted the attention due to your role. Also there is withheld information. It's not information you would be expected to provide when claiming you don't have a faction, but like it's a small part of your claim so of course there is withheld information. It's just the standard mafia game withheld information. I have several ideas of not having a faction roles could look like. Most of them are third parties, some of those are anti town. Some are town. Only a tiny number are scum.
And the whole point I brought it up is because while HR has said that he doesn't like mass claims when it is stated that mass claiming may be bad, the game said that sharing flavor may be bad IIRC, so I am surprised he didn't suggest any sort of mechanical claim.
... Surprised that I didn't suggest a mechanical claim, when I specifically addressed this and my reasoning as to why I didn't support such a move for this game prior to you posting this?
I really think that LnGrrrR just kind of glossing over the thread and not really reading the part where the mod said everyone has a faction is a plausible explanation for why LnGrrrR claimed factionless.
Also, extremely brief summary of Highroller's policy on mass claiming:
In most games involving role madness, claim everything immediately. It forces the mafia offguard.
In games with vanilla towns, claim flavor. (Mechanical claiming becomes profoundly less useful as anyone can claim VT)
If flavor is not usable (example, Secret Agent Mafia, in which there was no discernible rhyme or reason), then there's no sense in claiming.
If the game is actively set up to punish you for roleclaiming, as the MOD TOLD US IN THE OPENING POST, then don't.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
accusing me of being mafia with both the people I pushed, now that's a joke if I've ever seen one
blah looks like im going to have to be more serious this game...
I have no answer
If I have connection during the morning sailing tomorrow morning, I will catch up.
Sir Chris hasn't been posting scum reads. He's only been posting some townish clears.
You saying this tells me that you are scum hunting. Its a mind meld thing too. Its one of the things I've been watching with Chris.
Pretty much by biggest town tell tbh.
Anyway I didn't express it as clearly as later people did but in my immediate hop onto KA I did flag that claiming faction-less wasn't a scum indicator.
@Wisp why would you need LnG's flip before assessing who hopped on his wagon?
@Hunger which KJ gut read are you talking about?
@Vaimes
It feels so accommodating and trying to get out on good terms. Maybe RE did develop a town read during the exchange, but it feels like the way you'd handled someone who was a strong town read, not someone you had a gut read on but didn't have justification for a fleshed out read.
Tom is likely town too.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Rules correction makes this less likely that LnG is an anti town role though I still think that's a somewhat likely scenario.
Anyway votes on me, Vaimes looks fine, his is more about the RE/DV stuff and then my LnG vote. DV similarly looks fine. LnG on the other hand seems more focused on my vote on him. Which is understandable since it was on him. But my vote was (I felt) pretty obviously not a bold declaration of scumminess for not having a faction. So it's kind of in the neutralish territory.
KA has been voting me for slightly shoddy reasoning for ages and RE had a naked vote on me. So bleh.
Anyway of the non voters tom expressed suspicion of me (semmingly) for the vote. Which is bad to separate mine out while saying he expects it from others. Think it's possible all of these are town. To many people aren't posting.
Come out and play.
I’ve always townread him for it so it’s definitely something that will eventually get stale, but I don’t understand why this specific situation is supposed to be scummy when it literally happens every game DV is in.
Mind didn't try and appease me. He just RQ'd out.
I was making a case about how appeasement vs engagement is about personality and I'd expect RE to lean towards the appeasement side, but the issue stemmed from her starting from a place of appeasement, but turns out I had the timeline jumbled in my head.
This was where my interest kicked in:
my interest was sparked by the DV read part of it. I'd been trying to figure out where the town feels on DV were coming from as I wasn't seeing it. This read felt fake and it felt like she was trying to get into his good books. I completely forgot this had come in an exchange where she'd aggro'd him which was here:
Anyway still think her read feels fake but the appeasement makes more sense now given what the inciting incident was (the miscommunication and not the fake-ish town lean that isn't really a town lean).
terriblethe type of player to jump on that sort of thing regardless of alignmentWhich of those are you arguing against?
Both and neither? I agree it's a wagon scum were likely to jump on, but it's also objectively suspect for a player to have none of a faction, alt win con, or way to gain either. Maybe he's a random pseudo vanilla, or maybe he's a strong info role and isolated to avoid sharing information with scum in faction chats. Both those are plausible. Most likely to me though is that he's some kind of neutral that is based on being a loner. And unless LnG towns it up I'm not really comfortable with him living to end game. Obviously we're a long way from that at this stage though.
I guess I'm arguing my was obviously not least excusable since I acknowledged it wasn't scum indicative.
He needs to die, but probably not today.
Am I finally using this term right?
Or responding to "what lngrr claimed being true" rather than "why lngrr is claiming"
It wasn’t a scummy look for Lng, but it was a shady one. In a game with this many angles, it’s not far fetched for there to be a neutral faction with anti-town elements.
@Tom
You voted Shinichi earlier, then later on said you had no idea why anyone thought he was scum. What’s up with that?
I think hes scum for his treatment of DV though
I'm like a grouse dog, I'm dumb, I bark, I scare up some grouse and then you find the right one and get it.
Would you prefer it if I went about it differently, like aggravating him? I made a mistake. Rather than let ego get in the way and try to pin it on someone or something else, it's better to accept it and move on. Regardless of my actual read on him, there was little to gain from continuing to fight with him over his read on me.
I thought this was well-known from people who've played with me before, but I read primarily off gut.
Also, while my initial vote on you was naked, I later explained it. You also responded to that explanation. But wagon formation may be in your favor - as you gained votes rather quickly.
Also, y'all are funny. I pointed out that LnGrrrR's claim was a very weird move as scum, before Sir Chris did.
Also, I think Wisp is scum. He's playing extremely ineffectively. Developing a theory that he may be bussing Shinichi, or someone, based on the lack of backlash from the people he's suspecting and pushing.
Will properly catch up now.
Wisp is my number 2 suspect. Has been for a while.
I should get a list out.
Off the top of my head its something like,
Lnggr
Vaimes
Tom
RE
KA
Tubba
Everyone else
Sir Chris
KJ
Wisp
Grape
I'd join you but I like Grape right now.
Can I vote on both wagons?
@RE Exactly because it was a mistake and should have been easy to solve, it "feels" off to me that you went out of your way to make this convoluted kind of town lean but not really a town lean. The rest of the way you handled it is in line with how I'd expect you to, but not the "gut then walked back" read part of it.
@tom I was responding to what he claimed to be true because it makes me think the withheld information is dangerous. I get that he provided it absolutely lacking any guile, but that doesn't reassure me in the slightest.
@DV Tubba's answer is basically it, but I really wasn't scum hunting before that. I was town hunting and when something else threw itself in my path and demanded attention.
@DV
@Tom
Also... DV claims neutral, then walks it back after a post from Vaimes. And GF... proceeds to ignore it entirely I guess from my quick skim.
To recap: DV says he is a neutral, lists abilities he says thinks could help town win, and GF doesn't comment at all. (Yes, he did first post after all that, but it was only a page later )
Me: State that I am faction less, GF says it isn't scummy but votes me anyways, continues to call for my death.
I am fine with my vote.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Vote Wisp
because DV said he was meme'ing before I posted and given it was a first post I pretty much believe it was not worth commenting on. Fun fact: I actually have a read this game that is partially tied to that post.
And no I don't really give you the benefit of the doubt that you'd lay low as a third party. And there are so many possibilities two obvious ones to me are: you may not have realized claiming no faction wasn't laying low or you may have wanted the attention due to your role. Also there is withheld information. It's not information you would be expected to provide when claiming you don't have a faction, but like it's a small part of your claim so of course there is withheld information. It's just the standard mafia game withheld information. I have several ideas of not having a faction roles could look like. Most of them are third parties, some of those are anti town. Some are town. Only a tiny number are scum.
Explain the flavor behind this. Specifically, do you know what the mafia are?
... Surprised that I didn't suggest a mechanical claim, when I specifically addressed this and my reasoning as to why I didn't support such a move for this game prior to you posting this?
I really think that LnGrrrR just kind of glossing over the thread and not really reading the part where the mod said everyone has a faction is a plausible explanation for why LnGrrrR claimed factionless.
Also, extremely brief summary of Highroller's policy on mass claiming:
In most games involving role madness, claim everything immediately. It forces the mafia offguard.
In games with vanilla towns, claim flavor. (Mechanical claiming becomes profoundly less useful as anyone can claim VT)
If flavor is not usable (example, Secret Agent Mafia, in which there was no discernible rhyme or reason), then there's no sense in claiming.
If the game is actively set up to punish you for roleclaiming, as the MOD TOLD US IN THE OPENING POST, then don't.
People I am ok with lynching:
LnGrrrR
LastWhisper
Shinichi
Brb
@HR accusing me of not reading while not reading himself is part for the course.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Unvote LnGrrrR, revote LastWhisper.
blah looks like im going to have to be more serious this game...
@DV
@Tom
why are you voting me?
Its in my win con to lynch scum?
don't pull out that smart ass behavior with me, I cant rebuttal that
And just to be clear you are factionless. Not just part of a faction with no one else (a la Rhand)?