MTG Salvation

Quote from Killjoy »

(To Spike) "I don't cah who gets sent on this first mission. Theh's two people. Failing it would be stupid. But I need to feel like I can trust that YOU aren't lying if it does fail, because it does occasionally fail. Last time that happened to me, I lost as town.

I'm mildly paranoid of a situation where you send yourself, one of us, and one of your informant buddies, then say you sent the informant on the dummy mission. That's just a lot of wine I don't want to wade through in the first mission.

Does that make sense? Also, do you agree that the mission leadeh should be trustworthy (or at least not the opposite) befoah deciding on missions?

Uh...sure? But then I guess I have to ask: why don't you trust me? Because I said that it doesn't feel like Wisp has an agenda? Or because I'm expressing suspicion of you? Or...? Because in 125 you said it "literally shouldn't matter" who gets sent, and then followed it up with rationale for sending players we don't like, but in the same post you then say that you don't trust me and therefore won't approve the mission. I feel like I'm getting hung up on this, but it's really frustrating. Either it doesn't matter who goes, or it does. It can't be both, and I'm leery of anyone who said the former then changed to the latter. I mean, if someone throws the game and says "hey, guys, I'm an informant, yuk yuk" I guess that's one thing, but otherwise...?

Quote from KJ »

And about Jones and why he might be an informant: My initial impression is he's thinking too far ahead, and too small picture. There's gonna be some missions where he shouldn't go. We don't want to send untested people on the later missions. Maybe I need to make a dive into his head a bit more, because maybe 'I want to be on every mission' is too brazen for FBI. I'm batting that around in my head as well.

That's pretty much where I am/why I feel like he doesn't have an agenda (or is "transparent", whatever). I just don't see an informant going "me on every mission, lol!"

Quote from KJ »

Question: How much of your distrust of Slick is based on Fingers opinions, and how much is based on Slick himself?

At the time I made the proposal, probably 50-50, the Slick side stemming from what feels like a lot of fluff/focus on flavor. Since my proposal and him still being like "whatever is fine" despite several others being up in arms about my proposal, I'm thinking I'd rather have proposed me/LnG/Rhand. Too late now, but...

Thanks for putting the flavor name connections in your sig.

@Wisp: Thinking on your objection more, I'm not sure it's as significant a concern as you think. In order for mission 1 to work as you want it to, the mission leader has to propose himself and two from slots 3, 4, 5 or 6 down in the list. So I'd have to propose myself and 2 of Rhand/KJ/Shadow/Riku. While that may be possible in many cases, it artificially restricts the choices. That may not matter if you're of the mindset that literally any team is fine for the first mission, but since I'm not of that mindset (as, it appears, many of us are not, despite first declarations), saying "only a team that doesn't consist of the next two players in mission leader order is acceptable" isn't...acceptable to me. I think you should accept my proposal.

@Shadow, can you explain why zee first mission not passing makes zee game easier (for zee robbairs, I'm assuming)? Bien sur, vous end up with a 50/50 chance of figuring out one of zee informants... but that's one mission in zee bag. If you are an informant picked to be on zee first mission, why wouldn't you choose fail? Of course, you likely eliminate yourself from being picked for a team, but there ees still additional persons needed for zee other missions.

If an informant votes pass on zee premier mission, that means an informant needs to be picked for zee next 3 of 4 missions. En plus, mission quatre needs TWO fails. Vraiment, they have to fail missions 2 et 3. Seems like a good deal of pressure, non, mon ami?

@KJ, merci beaucoup por votre signature. C'est mas facile comme ca.

@Cantrip, you could always just send Mssr. Whisper on zee dummy mission, non?

I went through my back today and am in too much pain to focus on anything.
I hope I’m better tomorrow.

The dummy mission is a concern on each mission, but I grant that if the informant is not the mission lead, then the odds of getting picked for it are 50/50 the first mission and go down with each later mission.

And I thought I was going easy on the accent I mostly added "zee" instead of the. And I thanked KJ for his signature with names.

Voting for proposal 1.1

1.1: Cantrip, LnG, and LW

Yes (3): Cantrip, LnG, Rhand
No (3): KJ, Wisp, Shadow
Not Voting (1): Riku

Mission is not accepted.

It is still nomination phase. It is now LnGrrrR's turn to nominate.

You have 72 hours to discuss.

Riku has been prodded for missing a vote.

Quote from shadowlancerx »

Quote from Cantripmancer »

Because it felt like you were seriously fine with "whatever, let's use flavor for fun", but then that wasn't actually the case.

I mean; in general the first mission composition /doesn’t/ matter. But at the end of the day I’m still going to send people I trust, and not people I don’t. And, especially with the dummy missions, I will go out of my way to decline missions by people I don’t trust, regardless of composition.

I agree, but you didn't see me saying at any point that the first mission composition didn't matter.

Quote from Shadow »

Quote from Cantrip »

Be specific in this comparison: point to the posts that are similar between Rhand and LnG that I'm calling scum for the former and town for the latter. I agree that they have some similar posts, but I don't agree that I'm calling LnG town for any of them.

You literally just did though. 40/41 are both contentless posts in the same way that the posts you pointed out from Rhand and said “filler” are. Except you cited them in your town read of him.

...seriously? 40 was LnG responding to your Captain Obvious question in a very disingenuous way (and without taking the opportunity to attack or smear you). 41 I agree was low in content, but I still liked it for the interactive playfulness. And LnG had other posts that were low on content (32 and 33, for example), but you asked me what I liked about his posts.

You didn't respond to this; did you mean to?

Quote from Cantrip »

Quote from Shadow »

Quote from Cantrip »

Actually, I see [Last’s] thought process as ridiculously transparent and mirroring my own.

Whats his read on me, and why, using only posts before the one I’m quoting?

(By "the one I'm quoting", you're saying before post 107?) If so, then he initially doesn't trust you, but warmed to you in the process of the mission proposal. He wants to replace you on a proposed team in 53, 64 he indicates that he doesn't know how to read you. 86 he flips his read on you, calling you and him v/v (which, I note, aligns with his stated self-meta), and then 92 he's backing you, with reasons that I didn't initially understand, but now (mostly) do. What's your point with this question?

Quote from Shadow »

Quote from Cantrip »

I'm happy that people care about who goes on missions. I'm dissatisfied with an initial professed mindset of "it doesn't matter" followed by "whoops, I mean, obviously it does matter". You, KJ, and Wisp have all essentially taken that stance, and I distrust the mindset discrepancy.

Even if I grant this premise, unless the exact team was KJ/Last/me, then someone thought that with a townie mindset.

Ok, groovy. It still stands out to me, and is something to be weighed when I'm deciding who I trust.

Quote from Shadow »

And to take it a step further, I actually think it shows more of a townie mindset anyway in that even when trying to have fun, people still actually care and are forming reads.

Stop misrepresenting my argument. It's the shift in totality from "literally anything" to "but no, not that" that I'm concerned with. I feel like it's highly likely that kind of mindset is more likely to come from scum who want mission leaders to make hasty choices than it is to come from lazy Town.

Quote from LnGrrrR »

@Cantrip, you could always just send Mssr. Whisper on zee dummy mission, non?

Oui.

Quote from shadowlancerx »

Can we ease up a little on the accents and roleplays? Just to make them readable and in English please? Thanks.

Boooooooo to roleplay spoilsport. I didn't have any problem parsing LnG's Frenglish.

Bah. People. A little faith they must be having.

So, Pipes. The front door approach, it is apparently no good. What do you propose?

@Grape: Does Riku's lack of vote mean that the majority for proposal 1.2 is reduced to 3 instead of 4? I'm not sure I fully understand that portion of rule #4.

If only 5 people submitted votes the majority required would be 3. 1 person bot voting does not change the majority requirement of 4, and it only applies to the vote where the vote wasn't cast, not for future proposals. Apologies for the unclear rules text.

okay, i somehow didnt understand the time that the vote was due i think. Sorry about that. i think i understand how the game works and i was planning to deny this mission.

I now have all the time in the world to participate so i am happy to be drilled like a screw.

Quote from Grapefruit21 »

If only 5 people submitted votes the majority required would be 3. 1 person bot voting does not change the majority requirement of 4, and it only applies to the vote where the vote wasn't cast, not for future proposals. Apologies for the unclear rules text.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense, thank you.

Quote from shadowlancerx »

Quote from Cantripmancer »

...seriously? 40 was LnG responding to your Captain Obvious question in a very disingenuous way (and without taking the opportunity to attack or smear you). 41 I agree was low in content, but I still liked it for the interactive playfulness. And LnG had other posts that were low on content (32 and 33, for example), but you asked me what I liked about his posts.

The question “who would you send” being answered with “me” is not an obvious questions with an obvious answer in that I was looking for people other than himself, so the answer is just silly. On top of that, the conversation at the time was based on flavor anyway, so even “me” isn’t necessarily a fitting answer. And you’re allowed to like his posts, It’s just noteworthy that somehow you liked his no effort posts and criticized Rhand for similar ones.

I guess I can see your point, but I still like more of LnG's posts than Rhand's. Sorry.

Quote from Shadow »

Quote from Cantrip »

Quote from Shadow »

Quote from Cantrip »

Actually, I see [Last’s] thought process as ridiculously transparent and mirroring my own.

Whats his read on me, and why, using only posts before the one I’m quoting?

(By "the one I'm quoting", you're saying before post 107?) If so, then he initially doesn't trust you, but warmed to you in the process of the mission proposal. He wants to replace you on a proposed team in 53, 64 he indicates that he doesn't know how to read you. 86 he flips his read on you, calling you and him v/v (which, I note, aligns with his stated self-meta), and then 92 he's backing you, with reasons that I didn't initially understand, but now (mostly) do. What's your point with this question?

The key part of my question was “and why”, of which there was literally no reason given. And considering you had described him as transparent, I’m wondering how you come to that conclusion.

A player can still be transparent without providing reasoning for his choices.

Quote from Shadow »

Quote from Cantrip »

Stop misrepresenting my argument. It's the shift in totality from "literally anything" to "but no, not that" that I'm concerned with. I feel like it's highly likely that kind of mindset is more likely to come from scum who want mission leaders to make hasty choices than it is to come from lazy Town.

How are you getting from “I actually do care about mission composition, let’s not just send anyone” to the desire to make people make hasty choices, rather than thinking things through? Additionally, going from “literally anything” to “no not that” is more of a product of the game unfolding, rather than a matter of cognitive dissonance.

In part because when I went to make my proposal I was in a rush and saw all these people saying "any old team will work" and wondered if I was overthinking things. Turns out I was underthinking them, so yeah, I feel a little sucker punched. And I would agree with you on it not being a matter of cognitive dissonance if players weren't hitting the extreme of "literally anything".

Quote from Shadow »

The actual French words were a Nope for me.....(also, sorry if I’m coming across like a jerk, I’m not intending to be)

I actually enjoyed the French post you quoted. I wouldn't want the whole game like that, but a post here or there would be fine, imo. But if it bothers you, I'm not going to encourage LnG. (You preferring not that doesn't make you a jerk, imo.)

Quote from Shadow »

@Ruma: Why would you have voted against this mission? Can I get your strongest 2 reads please?

/barn (@Riku:) Just because you didn't understand the voting timing doesn't excuse you from the lack of posts/content. Post moar, please.

I feel like I'm getting bogged down in the Shadows.

@Wisp: What are your thoughts on the last portion of 151 I addressed to you?

@Rhand: I hope you're doing better today.

Probably me, LnG, and Rhand. Maybe sub KJ in for one of LnG or Rhand.

Yeah, I think I'm done walling at you too, for the moment. (Disclaimer: Can't actually guarantee I won't start again in the near future.) Waiting on other input.

Hm. I will have to think about my team. In the meantime, could everyone who voted no explain why you did so?

Quickpost so I can see my sig

Quote from Spike »

]Uh...sure? But then I guess I have to ask: why don't you trust me? Because I said that it doesn't feel like Wisp has an agenda? Or because I'm expressing suspicion of you? Or...? Because in 125 you said it "literally shouldn't matter" who gets sent, and then followed it up with rationale for sending players we don't like, but in the same post you then say that you don't trust me and therefore won't approve the mission. I feel like I'm getting hung up on this, but it's really frustrating. Either it doesn't matter who goes, or it does. It can't be both, and I'm leery of anyone who said the former then changed to the latter. I mean, if someone throws the game and says "hey, guys, I'm an informant, yuk yuk" I guess that's one thing, but otherwise...?

"Those two thoughts aren't mootooal.... moot... They can both be true. In fact, they are.
Think about it. There's two people going on this job. If one of them is FBI and they sab...et... they fail it, then they out themselves. For that to be true, we need to be able to trust that who you say is on the dummy job is on the dummy job.

I don't trust you, no. I think your read on Jones is too quick and too easy. Jones may not be aligned with anyone, but that usually takes a while to mano...fast. Yup, that's a word. The point is, I don't think we'h theh yet."

Quote from Fingers »

Can we ease up a little on the accents and roleplays? Just to make them readable and in English please? Thanks.

The game is harder for the scum team if they spend the first mission literally gladiating another player. And if they aren’t the proposer, then they run the risk of sending a fail and getting dummy mission’d anyway, which would royally screw them up.

"Fingers is being a killjoy. It makes me sad.

You''h not a jehk though. A killjoy, yes. Jehk, no."

Riku: Your character name & title please? It's needed for roleplay purposes.

To Jones: "I'm a bit surprised you denied this. ISOing you you stahted out approving then disapproving the mission. Why?"

You are pulling leg, Doc, ja? You say ISO of Jones is a thing that happened, but still you question why he put my plan in the wood chipper?

"He was initially all for it. I'm curious why he changed his mind."

Why did you stop reading the ISO before he explained that?

"Did he? Must have missed it. I'll look again lateh"

I’ll catch up tomorrow.

@Shadow: I voted against the mission due to reasonsTM.

@Cantripmancer: No, but I have two f posts so it shouldn't be hard for you to read them. The reasons I didn't have posts the first time was due to being on Holiday, and the second time was a scrwup on my part. It's not going to happen again, which I said in my literal second post. Barning is scummy too.

@Killjoy: Sneakers, the vault breaker.


I'd probably send Wisp on a mission over cantrip. I'm on the fence regarding shadow.

Timezones are a *****.

I can't tell if shadow being openly abrasive is townie or scummie, but ill just go with him being townie for now

reading comprehension. get some. Im literally saying i will participate qnd youre sayint "Why arent you participating???". Its not a matter of being intentionally vague its a matter of not being sure of thingz.

funny, would you look at that. After you made a post and im around, im being more active.

Theres no need to be obboxious. I am trying to make up for my absence but its not like its easy.

@Shadow
I need your help finding the last scum
in Killjoy, Rhand, Cantrip, Grr, who is the last town?

Shadow being openly abrasive is NAI in this case wisp. Shadow just has beef with me for being terrible at mafia, and a terrible person.

Quote from Rumanshi »

Shadow being openly abrasive is NAI in this case wisp. Shadow just has beef with me for being terrible at mafia, and a terrible person.

fair enough, but NAI is subjective, there are few other reasons why I think he is town here, or is he just scum trying very hard to control the narrative day 1, which makes absolutely no sense

Quote from shadowlancerx »

Quote from Rumanshi »

Shadow being openly abrasive is NAI in this case wisp. Shadow just has beef with me for being terrible at mafia, and a terrible person.

I don’t think you’re a terrible person or terrible at Mafia, I just don’t like intentional obfuscation/vagueness when it’s constant. But very well, if you’re by going to play, then play.

@Last: why is Ruma town?

unfortunately, its fake intentional vaguneness as a method of bluffing.

In this case, though, its just cause im struggling

(To Sneakers:) What ah you struggling with?

Quote from LnGrrrR »

@KJ, merci beaucoup por votre signature. C'est mas facile comme ca.

"Oh, and I meant to respond to this.

I know some French too. I know how to respond to this.

Prepare to be impressed.

Bidet."

Quote from Killjoy »

(To Sneakers:) What ah you struggling with?

beyond existing?

Just working everything out.


Here's a joke:

the muscle, the brains and the fingers go to a bar.

They didn't order anything, because they didn't have a digestive track.

It was terrible.

I feel like literally nothing has progressed the game since I last posted, and I don't know what to do to fix that. I'm looking for:

• A proposal from LnG (or discussion about potentials).
• Rhand to feel better.
• KJ to explain why he's asking Wisp a question that has been extensively discussed already.
• Wisp to respond to Shadow's question.
• Riku to provide content beyond "I'd probably send Wisp over Cantrip". (Yes, I know you're working on it.)
• Shadow to dazzle me with something so townie it hurts.

@Shadow: Who should LnG propose for the mission?

I do feel better. I’m planning on catching up this evening on the airport.

@Shadow: Hmm, what would you think about specifically Rhand/KJ/LnG?

And you should do a jig. You never know; it might be the tipping element.

Quote from Cantripmancer »

I feel like literally nothing has progressed the game since I last posted, and I don't know what to do to fix that. I'm looking for:

• A proposal from LnG (or discussion about potentials).
• Rhand to feel better.
• KJ to explain why he's asking Wisp a question that has been extensively discussed already.
• Wisp to respond to Shadow's question.
• Riku to provide content beyond "I'd probably send Wisp over Cantrip". (Yes, I know you're working on it.)
• Shadow to dazzle me with something so townie it hurts.

@Shadow: Who should LnG propose for the mission?

"Extensively discussed? I'm currently staring at his ISO and he changes his position like eight times. It's in no way cleah that he's going to vote no at the end of the day."

I’m caught up.

I think Cantrip is solidly in his town!meta, making wall posts and having confidence in his reads.
Shadow vs LW feels like theatre. Which probably makes KJ town because of LW’s interactions with him.
Lngr is having too much fun with the flavor to be scum.
Which means Riku should be the last scum. Which would make sense if I’m right about Shadow/LW: LW townclears Riku without reasoning and Shadow challenges that read.

I think that’s about all the analysis I can do without missions to look at.
Lngr should make a new proposal so we keep this game moving.