I'm getting weird vibes from KJ, so I would be very hesitant to accept that proposal, and I'd also like to see more from Rhand.
So...you don't trust me, and you think that if I'm scum I never just propose my whole team for the first mission (you're probably right; that doesn't strike me as sound strategy), therefore if I'm scum then at least one of Rhand/KJ/LnG are scum. So you're fine with the behavior/choices of the individuals, but thinking I'm scum throws a wrench in the works.
So would you actually approve that proposal at this point? Asking for a friend.
I have literally no idea what you're talking about. Here are the relevant quotes from the thread, spoilered to be easier on the eyes, and Wisp changes his mind exactly ONCE.
I was hoping we'd get a sighting of the rare Rikubeast, but alas.
Oh well.
I thought was pretty ballsy to waltz in front door. The guy who thought of that has cojones the size of cantaloupe. Oh, wait, I thought of it.
Yeah, is right. We going straight in front door, 22 tons, and I's gonna push it open all by self.
Is joke. I can't push 22 tons. Not yet. But joke about front door, no. Is gonna take Jones, must handle combinations, timing. Also won't even *get* to door without proper documents, so need Pipes and his papes. And me, just in case the combinations don't work and we have to punch our way through.
@Cantrip
Because if grr is the next leader, it's add more variance to mission 2, and I like by the book, because he's on mission 1 and mission 2 is usually mission 1 + the proposer of the next mission, unless of course it fails, which we can't do if he's on mission 1 as well
@Wisp: Thinking on your objection more, I'm not sure it's as significant a concern as you think. In order for mission 1 to work as you want it to, the mission leader has to propose himself and two from slots 3, 4, 5 or 6 down in the list. So I'd have to propose myself and 2 of Rhand/KJ/Shadow/Riku. While that may be possible in many cases, it artificially restricts the choices. That may not matter if you're of the mindset that literally any team is fine for the first mission, but since I'm not of that mindset (as, it appears, many of us are not, despite first declarations), saying "only a team that doesn't consist of the next two players in mission leader order is acceptable" isn't...acceptable to me. I think you should accept my proposal.
I make the proposal in 79. In 80 he kneejerk approves, then talks it out a little and changes his mind in 88. He reiterates that he doesn't approve in 111, I ask him to clarify why in 120, he responds in 123, I ask for more in 136, he responds in 138, I tell him I understand why he doesn't want to approve the mission in 142, and then I tell him I don't agree with his position in 151. He never responds before the mission proposal time runs out. So yes, discussed EXTENSIVELY. And then in 171 you're like "Wait, Wisp, why didn't you approve the proposal???" o.O What the actual flying flip?
@Wisp: Thoughts on what I outlined in 151 to you (the last quote in the spoiler above)?
@Rhand: why would I challenge one buddy townreading another buddy? Also, what are your key indicators of Cantrip here; he’s perfectly capable of walking as either alignment.
@cantrip: honestly it would be a really interesting call for scum to try and jam their whole team for the first mission, but no, I don’t think you would. As far as the proposal...I don’t know. It’s one thing to say I would now, is another when it’s actually on the table and I can see other people react to it in real time.
Hmm, let's see. Interesting thought exercise: what do I think everyone else would think of that proposal (Rhand/KJ/LnG)?
• LnG: If he's proposing it, it's unlikely he'd reject. Approve.
• Rhand: Says he'll accept any team. Approve.
• KJ: I don't think he's expressed any concern with any of the three (actually, it's been a long time since he's given any reads other than not trusting me). Approve.
• Wisp: Unlikely, as he doesn't trust KJ. Reject.
• Me: I don't get what KJ's doing right now, and I'm not real solid on Rhand after his reasons for a town read on me. Reject.
• Shadow: Hedged. ???
• Riku: Hasn't weighed in on any of the three, and won't provide reasoning as to why he rejected the first mission. ???
So it'd come down to whether one of Shadow or Riku accepted (if I'm right).
Spike: This is what LnGrrR would hypothetically propose?
It's fine. Probably doesn't fail. We won't learn anything from it unless it fails though.
Actually... I just had a thought. Let me ask the mod something.
Also I think I might retcon Doc to be a bit smarter becasue having to use smaller words as Doc is hampering my playstyle. Doc now has a PhD in Liberal Arts.
And with regard to Jones' position on the last job: Yeah I saw that, but I also saw a him saying he'd reject because Fingers and then come backa and say he and Fingers were v/v which confused me. I put the weight of that statement about the same as the one you quoted.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hmm, let's see. Interesting thought exercise: what do I think everyone else would think of that proposal (Rhand/KJ/LnG)?
• LnG: If he's proposing it, it's unlikely he'd reject. Approve.
• Rhand: Says he'll accept any team. Approve.
• KJ: I don't think he's expressed any concern with any of the three (actually, it's been a long time since he's given any reads other than not trusting me). Approve.
• Wisp: Unlikely, as he doesn't trust KJ. Reject.
• Me: I don't get what KJ's doing right now, and I'm not real solid on Rhand after his reasons for a town read on me. Reject.
• Shadow: Hedged. ???
• Riku: Hasn't weighed in on any of the three, and won't provide reasoning as to why he rejected the first mission. ???
So it'd come down to whether one of Shadow or Riku accepted (if I'm right).
@KJ: What would you think of that proposal?
ReasonsTM. Because I was dumb and didn't understand the rules properly. As stupid a reason as that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
@Shadow: Challenging your buddy about something you know isn’t true is an easy way of making conversation with him in thread. While accepting the wrong read can get you caught red-handed later.
About Cantrip: his posts show conviction. He believes what he writes.
@Shadow: Challenging your buddy about something you know isn’t true is an easy way of making conversation with him in thread. While accepting the wrong read can get you caught red-handed later.
About Cantrip: his posts show conviction. He believes what he writes.
How does that pan out in a game with no flips though?
And I don’t particularly agree wrt Cantrip, he’s said a lot of things, but several of them I can’t follow along and see at least how he gets there.
Why? Can you try to put reason and lay out a thought process when you make posts so that it’s there on record and we don’t have to wait for you to come back and give it?
@Shadow: Challenging your buddy about something you know isn’t true is an easy way of making conversation with him in thread. While accepting the wrong read can get you caught red-handed later.
About Cantrip: his posts show conviction. He believes what he writes.
How does that pan out in a game with no flips though?
And I don’t particularly agree wrt Cantrip, he’s said a lot of things, but several of them I can’t follow along and see at least how he gets there.
Why? Can you try to put reason and lay out a thought process when you make posts so that it’s there on record and we don’t have to wait for you to come back and give it?
No because intuition isnt logical. I will later either come back and say 'lol why did i ever think that' or say 'here is where is where i think my radar got proc'ed'.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
@Ruand: sorry, didn’t connect that very well, I can’t follow it and I don’t think he actually believes it because it seems like some of his stances are made up completely. He puts the words there, but calling last transparent was the opposite of true, and in general he’s done nothing I can point to and say “that’s definitely not scum!cantrip”. I did like his first couple of posts, but I’m soured after that.
@Shadow: I forgot to answer your other question. I’m assuming the dummy missions will net us positives at one point.
We never really know if we can trust the mission leader to tell the truth I suppose, but I can think of at least one scenario where scum can be caught with 99% surety.
About Cantrip: I think continuing this conversation will be beating a dead horse.
@Shadow: I forgot to answer your other question. I’m assuming the dummy missions will net us positives at one point.
We never really know if we can trust the mission leader to tell the truth I suppose, but I can think of at least one scenario where scum can be caught with 99% surety.
About Cantrip: I think continuing this conversation will be beating a dead horse.
fair wrt Cantrip.
And I think the dummy missions will be a great way to get info, but in a game where there aren’t flips, the info we get is going to be speculative.
@Wisp: Thinking on your objection more, I'm not sure it's as significant a concern as you think. In order for mission 1 to work as you want it to, the mission leader has to propose himself and two from slots 3, 4, 5 or 6 down in the list. So I'd have to propose myself and 2 of Rhand/KJ/Shadow/Riku. While that may be possible in many cases, it artificially restricts the choices. That may not matter if you're of the mindset that literally any team is fine for the first mission, but since I'm not of that mindset (as, it appears, many of us are not, despite first declarations), saying "only a team that doesn't consist of the next two players in mission leader order is acceptable" isn't...acceptable to me. I think you should accept my proposal.
it may restrict the choices, for mission 1 and 2, but it allows us to get the most readable information
though again, idk how the addition of the trapper mission, affects this
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
And with regard to Jones' position on the last job: Yeah I saw that, but I also saw a him saying he'd reject because Fingers and then come backa and say he and Fingers were v/v which confused me. I put the weight of that statement about the same as the one you quoted.
...but what I was questioning you about was why you didn't know why he rejected the proposal. This has nothing to do with that?
Quote from KJ »
What exactly do you think scum!me is doing?
I have no idea. I don't know if you're not paying attention (NAI), derping (mostly NAI unless intentional), manufacturing interactions (scummy), or something else.
Hmm, let's see. Interesting thought exercise: what do I think everyone else would think of that proposal (Rhand/KJ/LnG)?
• LnG: If he's proposing it, it's unlikely he'd reject. Approve.
• Rhand: Says he'll accept any team. Approve.
• KJ: I don't think he's expressed any concern with any of the three (actually, it's been a long time since he's given any reads other than not trusting me). Approve.
• Wisp: Unlikely, as he doesn't trust KJ. Reject.
• Me: I don't get what KJ's doing right now, and I'm not real solid on Rhand after his reasons for a town read on me. Reject.
• Shadow: Hedged. ???
• Riku: Hasn't weighed in on any of the three, and won't provide reasoning as to why he rejected the first mission. ???
So it'd come down to whether one of Shadow or Riku accepted (if I'm right).
@KJ: What would you think of that proposal?
ReasonsTM. Because I was dumb and didn't understand the rules properly. As stupid a reason as that.
Sorry, I misstated there. I meant "won't provide reasoning as to why he would have rejected the first mission." I know you didn't approve it because you were afk, but Shadow asked you why you would have rejected it (as you said in 163), and you said "ReasonsTM". Can you clarify?
No because intuition isnt logical. I will later either come back and say 'lol why did i ever think that' or say 'here is where is where i think my radar got proc'ed'.
This feels like a cop-out from having to give reasons for reads for the whole game?
@Ruand: sorry, didn’t connect that very well, I can’t follow it and I don’t think he actually believes it because it seems like some of his stances are made up completely. He puts the words there, but calling last transparent was the opposite of true, and in general he’s done nothing I can point to and say “that’s definitely not scum!cantrip”. I did like his first couple of posts, but I’m soured after that.
You should know by now that beyond obvious game-throwing comments, it's rare that I say something as either alignment that I don't actually believe. I may not have used the best word to describe Wisp, but I still feel like he was being open, carefree...transparent. :/
I feel pretty confident about Rhand being town. Gut check more than anything now. And KJ, I think it would be strange if he drew attention to himself with flavor posting.
I want to wait on you and Wisp. that whole interactions weirds me out a bit.
Cantrip feels pretty towny.
Riku... I need to finish reading the last page with more scrutiny.
Why this mission specifically? I don't think town is at a consensus on two "towny" people. Answers on this should help guide that discussion. Also, people may need to compromise on teams they don't like to get something going. we all can't have it our way.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@lng, which specific interaction weirds you out? I do agree with you on Rhand; I think KJ is reasonably townie but I don’t agree that it has to do with his flavor posting.
@LnG: I'm trying to figure out if KJ is hiding behind the flavor. Feels like the kind of direction I'd go in as scum. It'd give me the opportunity to post fluff in a way that isn't questioned. You know, like 190.
@KJ: As of right now I'm rejecting this mission because I don't trust you, and I don't know if I can trust Rhand, although I liked his clarification on his townread of me in 208. I'm townreading LnG.
Also, in 205 you said: "And with regard to Jones' position on the last job: Yeah I saw that, but I also saw a him saying he'd reject because Fingers and then come backa and say he and Fingers were v/v which confused me. I put the weight of that statement about the same as the one you quoted." Show me where Wisp indicated he would reject my proposal because of Fingers.
Hey, LnG, I'd probably approve this mission if you promise to send KJ on the dummy mission.
@cantrip: sure, you might “believe” it, but showing your work on it seems messy. I’ll concede it’s possible that I’m holding you to a high standard, but until I’ve got some hard(ish) data to work with, I’m not really holding my breath on you.
[b]ey, LnG, I'd probably approve this mission if you promise to send KJ on the dummy mission.
Ewwww no no no.
Unless we have very good reason to do so, we should [b]not[/b] be commenting on who will or will not be sent on dummy missions. And Cantrip absolutely knows better than this.
Unless we have very good reason to do so, we should not be commenting on who will or will not be sent on dummy missions. And Cantrip absolutely knows better than this.
I absolutely do NOT know better. (I'm assuming LnG knows better, and I'm almost certainly rejecting this mission regardless.)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Spike: You do realize the way we figure out if people are FBI is to send them in missions, right?
Having a mission leader who I'm actively scum reading is what I want to avoid.
I'm currently thinking that this mission proposal passes.
part of my issue is this exactly. I trust you and Rhand more than lng, and him being the leader is...less than ideal. I haven’t decided yet what I want to do.
@Last, why do you think the mission leader should always be in the mission?
Also, one issue I see with the dummy missions. If an informant is the mission lead, he could send off a robber on a dummy mission, then vote fail himself and blame it on the robber. Not sure how we get around that other than its word against word. With only five missions, not a lot of wiggle room.
I am fine with shadow, Cantrip and rhand. I don't trust LW yet, but he is hard to read.
first of all I did not say always on every mission, I specifically said this mission if you look above, and its because in your eyes, you are the only confirmed town at this point, 2 unknowns is better than 3 unknowns. it will get to a point where we may or may not believe the mission leader is our enemy and therefore we would never accept him on the mission regardless of if hes the mission leader or not
dont hedge on me, you should consider me locked town, until proven otherwise, or you will hurt urself thinking about it too much
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Spike: You do realize the way we figure out if people are FBI is to send them in missions, right?
Ok, so if it's highly likely that mission 1 passes regardless, is it better to have three robbers go or 1 FBI agent go?
Also, still waiting to hear why you were confused as to why Wisp rejected my proposal.
@Shadow: Clarify why you don't like LnG? You said something about Last telling LnG not to read Last...? Can you point me to that interaction and why you don't like it? Is there anything else that makes you distrust LnG?
@Last, why do you think the mission leader should always be in the mission?
Also, one issue I see with the dummy missions. If an informant is the mission lead, he could send off a robber on a dummy mission, then vote fail himself and blame it on the robber. Not sure how we get around that other than its word against word. With only five missions, not a lot of wiggle room.
I am fine with shadow, Cantrip and rhand. I don't trust LW yet, but he is hard to read.
first of all I did not say always on every mission, I specifically said this mission if you look above, and its because in your eyes, you are the only confirmed town at this point, 2 unknowns is better than 3 unknowns. it will get to a point where we may or may not believe the mission leader is our enemy and therefore we would never accept him on the mission regardless of if hes the mission leader or not
dont hedge on me, you should consider me locked town, until proven otherwise, or you will hurt urself thinking about it too much
still not accepting this mission with shadow
This quote.
It was a while ago
That (#75) was....before I made my proposal (#80). It has absolutely no bearing on what I'm asking you. How are you using that to point to Wisp as having changed his mind on my proposal multiple times?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I don't believe this is this important to you. I'm wondering if you're not making a mountain out of a mole hill for no really good reason.
Why would I manufacture interactions with wisp if I've already said behavior means very little in finding spies in this game type?
...I'm seriously just trying to figure you out, KJ. Really. You talk about trust. For me, trust is established through clear communication, being on similar wavelengths, mindmeld, understanding. And I don't understand why you would ask the questions you've asked/make the posts you've made. Every time I try to clarify the situation, you take (yet) another turn away from where I could possibly expect you to. Let me try once more, I guess. Here's a paraphrased summary of what I've heard and why I'm confused:
79-Cantrip: Propose LnG, Wisp, Cantrip
80-Wisp: Approve!
92-Wisp: Actually, reject. [gives reason]
[Multiple communications between Cantrip and Wisp on why Wisp plans to reject. Every time he mentions it after 80 he says he's going to reject. He never again says he might approve.]
160-Mod: Mission not approved.
171-KJ: Wisp, I'm confused, why did you reject the mission?
172-Cantrip: Wut?
173-KJ: He said he was for it; why'd he change his mind?
174-Cantrip: He said why.
175-KJ: I must've missed it; I'll look later.
192-Cantrip: Still waiting for an answer.
198-KJ: Wisp changed his position "like eight times. It's in no way cleah that he's going to vote no at the end of the day."
204-Cantrip: Still doesn't compute, KJ.
205-KJ: Regarding Wisp's position on the last job: I saw [what you're talking about, Cantrip], but [here's this reference to a thing Wisp said before the last job was proposed]. See what I mean?
And...I never said you were manufacturing interactions with Wisp? If anything, I was wondering if you were trying to pass as clueless, but now I seriously don't know what to think. Like...I feel like I've held your hand through the entire conversation and you just keep veering away.
Whatever. I find myself, yet again, obsessing about something that obviously no one else cares about, so I'll just retreat to my corner and mutter quietly to myself.
To be clear, I'm rejecting this mission. Something is off with KJ, and while I'm sure the mission is likely to pass if approved because the first mission almost always does, I don't want to deal with KJ being on the mission round 2.
Actually...hmm. You know what? Scratch that. I'll approve it. I just sent Grape a rejection, but I'm going to change it. Sure. As you said, it's important to trust the leader. And LnG's at the top of my trust list, and it only gets worse from here, so. Sure.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Actually...hmm. You know what? Scratch that. I'll approve it. I just sent Grape a rejection, but I'm going to change it. Sure. As you said, it's important to trust the leader. And LnG's at the top of my trust list, and it only gets worse from here, so. Sure.
*gets whiplash*
I’m resisting to urge to snap reject here just based on this post...ah, I think we need missions done and this is good enough.
Actually...hmm. You know what? Scratch that. I'll approve it. I just sent Grape a rejection, but I'm going to change it. Sure. As you said, it's important to trust the leader. And LnG's at the top of my trust list, and it only gets worse from here, so. Sure.
*gets whiplash*
I’m resisting to urge to snap reject here just based on this post...ah, I think we need missions done and this is good enough.
shadow... from a logical standpoint, this is a decent first mission, regardless of what everyone's alignment is
I don’t think it’s good “regardless of everyone’s alignments” but otherwise my sentiments are the same. That was basically the point I was making, I’m approving this mission.
Actually...hmm. You know what? Scratch that. I'll approve it. I just sent Grape a rejection, but I'm going to change it. Sure. As you said, it's important to trust the leader. And LnG's at the top of my trust list, and it only gets worse from here, so. Sure.
*gets whiplash*
I’m resisting to urge to snap reject here just based on this post...ah, I think we need missions done and this is good enough.
Lol. And I like you better for not rejecting just because I'm a pain in the neck.
So...you don't trust me, and you think that if I'm scum I never just propose my whole team for the first mission (you're probably right; that doesn't strike me as sound strategy), therefore if I'm scum then at least one of Rhand/KJ/LnG are scum. So you're fine with the behavior/choices of the individuals, but thinking I'm scum throws a wrench in the works.
So would you actually approve that proposal at this point? Asking for a friend.
I have literally no idea what you're talking about. Here are the relevant quotes from the thread, spoilered to be easier on the eyes, and Wisp changes his mind exactly ONCE.
@Wisp: Thoughts on what I outlined in 151 to you (the last quote in the spoiler above)?
@cantrip: honestly it would be a really interesting call for scum to try and jam their whole team for the first mission, but no, I don’t think you would. As far as the proposal...I don’t know. It’s one thing to say I would now, is another when it’s actually on the table and I can see other people react to it in real time.
• LnG: If he's proposing it, it's unlikely he'd reject. Approve.
• Rhand: Says he'll accept any team. Approve.
• KJ: I don't think he's expressed any concern with any of the three (actually, it's been a long time since he's given any reads other than not trusting me). Approve.
• Wisp: Unlikely, as he doesn't trust KJ. Reject.
• Me: I don't get what KJ's doing right now, and I'm not real solid on Rhand after his reasons for a town read on me. Reject.
• Shadow: Hedged. ???
• Riku: Hasn't weighed in on any of the three, and won't provide reasoning as to why he rejected the first mission. ???
So it'd come down to whether one of Shadow or Riku accepted (if I'm right).
@KJ: What would you think of that proposal?
It's fine. Probably doesn't fail. We won't learn anything from it unless it fails though.
Actually... I just had a thought. Let me ask the mod something.
Also I think I might retcon Doc to be a bit smarter becasue having to use smaller words as Doc is hampering my playstyle. Doc now has a PhD in Liberal Arts.
And with regard to Jones' position on the last job: Yeah I saw that, but I also saw a him saying he'd reject because Fingers and then come backa and say he and Fingers were v/v which confused me. I put the weight of that statement about the same as the one you quoted.
What exactly do you think scum!me is doing?
ReasonsTM. Because I was dumb and didn't understand the rules properly. As stupid a reason as that.
About Cantrip: his posts show conviction. He believes what he writes.
And I don’t particularly agree wrt Cantrip, he’s said a lot of things, but several of them I can’t follow along and see at least how he gets there. Why? Can you try to put reason and lay out a thought process when you make posts so that it’s there on record and we don’t have to wait for you to come back and give it?
No because intuition isnt logical. I will later either come back and say 'lol why did i ever think that' or say 'here is where is where i think my radar got proc'ed'.
@Riku: I just finished a game where I was scum with Lngr. This carefree and fun play with flavor does not fit his scumgame at all.
We never really know if we can trust the mission leader to tell the truth I suppose, but I can think of at least one scenario where scum can be caught with 99% surety.
About Cantrip: I think continuing this conversation will be beating a dead horse.
And I think the dummy missions will be a great way to get info, but in a game where there aren’t flips, the info we get is going to be speculative.
just a feeling
also hate how cantrip just posts wall after wall, just feels like an attempt to just give off the feeling that he is's actively looking for the wolves
@rhand
I cant believe you dumped me into this scum theater with shadow
hot take: Wolves are Cantrip/Killjoy/Rhand
it may restrict the choices, for mission 1 and 2, but it allows us to get the most readable information
though again, idk how the addition of the trapper mission, affects this
Mission proposal 1.2: LnGrrrR, Rhand, and KJ.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I have no idea. I don't know if you're not paying attention (NAI), derping (mostly NAI unless intentional), manufacturing interactions (scummy), or something else.
Sorry, I misstated there. I meant "won't provide reasoning as to why he would have rejected the first mission." I know you didn't approve it because you were afk, but Shadow asked you why you would have rejected it (as you said in 163), and you said "ReasonsTM". Can you clarify?
This feels like a cop-out from having to give reasons for reads for the whole game?
You should know by now that beyond obvious game-throwing comments, it's rare that I say something as either alignment that I don't actually believe. I may not have used the best word to describe Wisp, but I still feel like he was being open, carefree...transparent. :/
Feel free to meta me. Walling is NAI for me.
I plan to reject this mission, but would like to know why LnG proposed it.
I feel pretty confident about Rhand being town. Gut check more than anything now. And KJ, I think it would be strange if he drew attention to himself with flavor posting.
I want to wait on you and Wisp. that whole interactions weirds me out a bit.
Cantrip feels pretty towny.
Riku... I need to finish reading the last page with more scrutiny.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@KJ: As of right now I'm rejecting this mission because I don't trust you, and I don't know if I can trust Rhand, although I liked his clarification on his townread of me in 208. I'm townreading LnG.
Also, in 205 you said: "And with regard to Jones' position on the last job: Yeah I saw that, but I also saw a him saying he'd reject because Fingers and then come backa and say he and Fingers were v/v which confused me. I put the weight of that statement about the same as the one you quoted." Show me where Wisp indicated he would reject my proposal because of Fingers.
Hey, LnG, I'd probably approve this mission if you promise to send KJ on the dummy mission.
Unless we have very good reason to do so, we should [b]not[/b] be commenting on who will or will not be sent on dummy missions. And Cantrip absolutely knows better than this.
Having a mission leader who I'm actively scum reading is what I want to avoid.
I'm currently thinking that this mission proposal passes.
It was a while ago
Also, still waiting to hear why you were confused as to why Wisp rejected my proposal.
@Shadow: Clarify why you don't like LnG? You said something about Last telling LnG not to read Last...? Can you point me to that interaction and why you don't like it? Is there anything else that makes you distrust LnG?
Why would I manufacture interactions with wisp if I've already said behavior means very little in finding spies in this game type?
1.2=LnGrrrR, Rhand, KJ
Please reply by PM.
79-Cantrip: Propose LnG, Wisp, Cantrip
80-Wisp: Approve!
92-Wisp: Actually, reject. [gives reason]
[Multiple communications between Cantrip and Wisp on why Wisp plans to reject. Every time he mentions it after 80 he says he's going to reject. He never again says he might approve.]
160-Mod: Mission not approved.
171-KJ: Wisp, I'm confused, why did you reject the mission?
172-Cantrip: Wut?
173-KJ: He said he was for it; why'd he change his mind?
174-Cantrip: He said why.
175-KJ: I must've missed it; I'll look later.
192-Cantrip: Still waiting for an answer.
198-KJ: Wisp changed his position "like eight times. It's in no way cleah that he's going to vote no at the end of the day."
204-Cantrip: Still doesn't compute, KJ.
205-KJ: Regarding Wisp's position on the last job: I saw [what you're talking about, Cantrip], but [here's this reference to a thing Wisp said before the last job was proposed]. See what I mean?
And...I never said you were manufacturing interactions with Wisp? If anything, I was wondering if you were trying to pass as clueless, but now I seriously don't know what to think. Like...I feel like I've held your hand through the entire conversation and you just keep veering away.
Whatever. I find myself, yet again, obsessing about something that obviously no one else cares about, so I'll just retreat to my corner and mutter quietly to myself.
To be clear, I'm rejecting this mission. Something is off with KJ, and while I'm sure the mission is likely to pass if approved because the first mission almost always does, I don't want to deal with KJ being on the mission round 2.
I’m resisting to urge to snap reject here just based on this post...ah, I think we need missions done and this is good enough.
also #242 gives me the same feelings
@Shadow: if you trust me, then why do you not trust my Lngr read?
Lol. And I like you better for not rejecting just because I'm a pain in the neck.
LnG>>>>You>>???
@KJ: If you were mission leader right now instead of LnG, what would your proposal have been?
Also, what did the mod say?
1.2: KJ, LnG, and Rhand
Yes (6): Rhand, KJ, Wisp, Shadow, Riku, Cantrip
Not voting (1): LnGrrrR
LnGrrrR has been prodded.
It is now the mission phase.
LnGrrrR, Rhand, and KJ have roughly 24 hours to submit their actions.
Please do not post.