KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Pretty sure the dummy vote doesn't contribute to the fails, but I suppose we should get some clarification.
LnG and Wisp were actually PoE choices, as I think Shadow is quite likely to be a FIBber, and he's pushing for Rhand, so I don't trust him, either. Riku is still AWOL, and KJ seems very calculated so far this game. I've liked several things I've seen from LnG, and Wisp seems very carefree, without an agenda.
I'll provide more tomorrow, as I had jury duty today and then spent an unbelievable amount of time at the doctor's office for a concern that doesn't seem to be serious, at least not at this time. And now it's very late. So...dosvedanya.
Pretty sure the dummy vote doesn't contribute to the fails, but I suppose we should get some clarification.
It says directly in the OP that it won’t count towards it.
Quote from Cantrip »
LnG and Wisp were actually PoE choices
As in you think you’ve PoE’d them as town? What?
Quote from Cantrip »
I think Shadow is quite likely to be a FIBber
Why exactly?
Quote from Cantrip »
and he's pushing for Rhand, so I don't trust him, either.
A. This is a bad way to read people in this style of game.
B. What is your actual read on Rhand/do you disagree with my assessment of him thus far?
Quote from Cantrip »
Riku is still AWOL
Non zero chance that makes him scum, agree or disagree?
Quote from Cantrip »
KJ seems very calculated so far this game.
What does that tell you about his alignment?
Quote from Cantrip »
I've liked several things I've seen from LnG
Which things?
Quote from Cantrip »
Wisp seems very carefree, without an agenda.
No. this is an awful read and does not actually reflect the reality of Last’s play this game at all, he’s had a significant agenda trying to strongman into a quest without actually getting there natively, been unable to justify reads, and is playing sort of a cross between attack and appease game directed at me.
Quote from Cantrip »
I'll provide more tomorrow, as I had jury duty today and then spent an unbelievable amount of time at the doctor's office for a concern that doesn't seem to be serious, at least not at this time. And now it's very late. So...dosvedanya.
Take care of yourself!This Cantrip post is like...baaaad. It’s ridiculously removed from reality. Decent chance Cantrip and last are buddies, but I would almost say it’s possible white knighting.
Ugh. I actually liked Cantrip up to this point too. Bah, I want quest data, but really don’t want to send either of them on quests.
I don’t think Cantrip/Last/Lng is the exact team (hilarious post game cred for me if it is) but that triumvirate is nefarious; both last and Cantrip’s posturing/reads on/towards lng are dubious.
@shadow
Of course that's not the exact team, since I'm town, and it's bad to put a partner on a team with you, if Cantrip is actually red...
The number of fails on each mission should be outted in public, it's dangerous to have two mafia on mission 1, unless they have communication to say which one will fail the mission, come mission two
Damn this game is quite interesting with the trapper, mission 5 not only do we need to pick all 4 town, but we also have to send the correct informant player on the dummy mission, that's going to be interesting
@shadow
Of course that's not the exact team, since I'm town, and it's bad to put a partner on a team with you, if Cantrip is actually red...
The number of fails on each mission should be outted in public, it's dangerous to have two mafia on mission 1, unless they have communication to say which one will fail the mission, come mission two
Its not as dangerous as you suggest here, if one of them is the proposer. I’m not gonna get deeper into that though.
We’re claiming for funzies. It doesn’t matter at all.
@Shadow: since when do you omgus?
I would contest the assertion that I’m Omgusing, Cantrip suggesting I’m scum is only part of why I didn’t like that post, and not a large part even.
That said, omgus is a tool I’ve used before in cases where someone’s scum read on me is fishy, and especially after I didn’t push eco harder in secret agent Mafia, I’m more acutely aware of bull crap suggestions that I’m scum.
@shadow
Of course that's not the exact team, since I'm town, and it's bad to put a partner on a team with you, if Cantrip is actually red...
The number of fails on each mission should be outted in public, it's dangerous to have two mafia on mission 1, unless they have communication to say which one will fail the mission, come mission two
Its not as dangerous as you suggest here, if one of them is the proposer. I’m not gonna get deeper into that though.
u can believe that, but if mafia is the proposal day 1, I believe that putting up one of your partners is dangerous, though I havent thought of how the dummy mission might change this
Pretty sure the dummy vote doesn't contribute to the fails, but I suppose we should get some clarification.
It says directly in the OP that it won’t count towards it.
Yeah, I was in a hurry when I looked at that last night. Additionally, I asked Grape what would be public information in the case of (first mission): Pass/Pass(Pass), Pass/Fail(Pass), and Pass/Pass(Fail). Respectively, everyone will see Pass/Pass, Pass/Fail, Pass/Pass. I was pretty sure that was what we'd get, but I wanted to clarify.
Quote from -Shadow »
Quote from Cantrip »
I think Shadow is quite likely to be a FIBber
Why exactly?
Feelings of posturing/fake posts from you in 6 ("dummy mission?"), 13, 25 ("lol, since it doesn't matter who goes on the first mission, let's leave it up to flavor!" And then you have since proceeded to communicate that it *does* matter who goes.) and then your push/just kidding/not really on Lurk!Riku in 36.
Quote from Shadow »
Quote from Cantrip »
and he's pushing for Rhand, so I don't trust him, either.
A. This is a bad way to read people in this style of game.
B. What is your actual read on Rhand/do you disagree with my assessment of him thus far?
Are you trying to pocket me Shadow? That won’t work
Anyways, I’m ok with any team for mission 1.
If you’re also town (my current suspicion) then it totally will
(How are you Townreading Rhand at this early stage?)
(He’s actively looking to push the game forward, making reads, and has a feel of not having info. The last bit is more of a feel read. Obviously this is a page two read, but we kind of need to move this game at a faster clip than we would for a normal game)
Rhand's posts up til then were:
14/16: Intro and /barn KJ that this will be a numbers game.
18: slight towns LnG, doesn't really commit on Shadow (still early, so ok).
24: flavor
28: flavor
35: flavor
43: "I don't think it matters who goes on the first mission."
47: muddies the waters on his LnG read, but finishes with "LnG is probably town/we should auto-include him"
49: fun response to LnG
51: hints at having insight that scum shouldn't get, pushes for the mission proposal
54: accuses Shadow of pocketing, reasserts being ok with any mission proposal
56: comes around to being ok with Shadow on the mission (but he had already said multiple times that he was ok with any mission, so why does he have to come around to Shadow?) because either the mission will pass or we'll get info, which he calls a win/win. But if it's generally agreed that the first mission is likely to succeed regardless, then a pass on mission 1 isn't a "win", it's just "how the game usually goes".
58: "is this serious?" in response to Wisp saying he will only vote for missions he's on.
60: "sigh"
63: Fake-sounding question to Shadow about how "town" and "suspicion" fit together.
So...no. I don't think your read on Rhand in 69 was sincere, because I don't see him progressing the game beyond "any team is fine hurr durr propose something".
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Riku is still AWOL
Non zero chance that makes him scum, agree or disagree?
Agree. So what?
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KJ seems very calculated so far this game.
What does that tell you about his alignment?
Maybe nothing? But it makes me a little more leery.
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I've liked several things I've seen from LnG
Which things?
I *didn't* like that he thought I was asking what I could do to prove to him that I was an informant rather than a robber, but pretty much everything after that. I like that he's thinking about multiple potential paths and not just going along with the "first mission will probably pass, doesn't matter" mindset, I felt like his uncertainty about possible other mafia roles in 20 was sincere, I liked his response to you in 40 because it sounded like he was seriously disappointed (and maybe confused) that you would ask him that obvious question, I liked the joking with me in 41, I liked his trying to puzzle out the dummy mission in 74 (even if it wasn't accurate) and that he was ok with a non-him mission, and I like that he's asking you about hypotheticals if my proposal doesn't pass.
Quote from Shadow »
Quote from Cantrip »
Wisp seems very carefree, without an agenda.
No. this is an awful read and does not actually reflect the reality of Last’s play this game at all, he’s had a significant agenda trying to strongman into a quest without actually getting there natively, been unable to justify reads, and is playing sort of a cross between attack and appease game directed at me.
Actually, I see his thought process as ridiculously transparent and mirroring my own.
I will also mention that I have another reason for my choices that I will not make public until after the mission goes (if it goes as proposed). (No, this isn't intended as a curiosity carrot to make you want to agree with the mission; I just want to make it clear that I'm not laying all my cards on the table.)
@Wisp: Clarify for me why you don't like my proposal?
@KJ: Why did you think Shadow was on my proposal/why aren't you paying attention to the game? Regarding Wisp, what is wrong with the town mindset of "I want to be on every mission because I know I'm town"?
Also, lol at the multiple posts from players going "whatever mission is fine for round 1, doesn't really matter, just propose something" "oh wait, that's a crap proposal".
Could someone explain to me this "trapper" thing? Maybe I'm skimming and don't see it.
@Shadow, I'm not saying I would or wouldn't put you on the team; I'm just asking you assume for the sake of argument that I wouldn't. What team would you suggest I propose?
Could someone explain to me this "trapper" thing? Maybe I'm skimming and don't see it.
@Shadow, I'm not saying I would or wouldn't put you on the team; I'm just asking you assume for the sake of argument that I wouldn't. What team would you suggest I propose?
@LnG: For example, first mission I send me, you, and Wisp. After it's accepted but before any of the three of us vote pass/fail (or, at least, before I know what you two vote), I choose one of the two of you to go on the "dummy mission", which means that that player's vote doesn't count toward the success or failure of the mission. If I choose you, for example, and Wisp and I both pass the mission, it passes, even if you vote fail. And I'll be told what you vote, but no one else will be told, and no one will know who I sent on the dummy mission besides me.
@Cantrip
Because if grr is the next leader, it's add more variance to mission 2, and I like by the book, because he's on mission 1 and mission 2 is usually mission 1 + the proposer of the next mission, unless of course it fails, which we can't do if he's on mission 1 as well
Which means again that if we make it to mission 5, it's going to be fun getting the correct team as well as sending the only scum on the team, on the dummy mission
I don't think the addition of the trapper, changes the balance of the teams... So it's 4/3 based on how resistance games are balanced
"Well, since the dummies don't compound ahh fails, then this works like I originally thought. The first mission has two people, so that just usually never fails. If it does, we have two people with 50% chance to be Fibbies. It therefore literally shouldn't matter who we send on the first mission.
Fingers, we have to let people we don't like go on missions sometimes. That's how strong suspicions evolve intah facts. Otherwise we might be condemning someone for the whole game wrongly. And honestly, if it succeeds, I don't care who's on it. As long as we don't falsely towncleah someone, it doesn't hurt us.
I do agree with you about Spike. Him saying Jones has no agenda makes no sense. Everyone has an agenda... that's the game. You're trying to either make it so missions fail or make it so unknowns are sent on missions to see if they fail. And for that reason, I'm gonna deny this mission. I need to be able to trust that the people on the mission are who Spike says they ahh, and who is sent on the dummy mission. I can't be actively distrusting the mission leader."
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Could someone explain to me this "trapper" thing? Maybe I'm skimming and don't see it.
@Shadow, I'm not saying I would or wouldn't put you on the team; I'm just asking you assume for the sake of argument that I wouldn't. What team would you suggest I propose?
(I actually went to the Resistance website because I didn't see it in the OP.)
"Yo Spike. Where'd that aggression come from? 'Why are you not paying attention'? Do we need to take this outside?
There's nothing 'wrong' with that mindset, ya know like... out of hand. I've just never seen it before. It's also kinda shortsighted and doesn't help anyone solve the game. Remembuh that behavya isn't a big deal. It doesn't tell you very much."
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Not a fan of #125 form killjoy
And im also not a fan of Rhand's posts on the top of page 2
"Why not? All I heeya from you is 'I don't like the things Doc's been sayin' but not a whole lot of why."
maybe I don't want to write a whole lot of why yet? Do you think either of the two posts you just made accomplish anything? They are just wordy for the sake of being wordy
Not a fan of #125 form killjoy
And im also not a fan of Rhand's posts on the top of page 2
"Why not? All I heeya from you is 'I don't like the things Doc's been sayin' but not a whole lot of why."
maybe I don't want to write a whole lot of why yet? Do you think either of the two posts you just made accomplish anything? They are just wordy for the sake of being wordy
"There ain't no missions to look at yet. What is there to accomplish?"
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Not a fan of #125 form killjoy
And im also not a fan of Rhand's posts on the top of page 2
"Why not? All I heeya from you is 'I don't like the things Doc's been sayin' but not a whole lot of why."
maybe I don't want to write a whole lot of why yet? Do you think either of the two posts you just made accomplish anything? They are just wordy for the sake of being wordy
"There ain't no missions to look at yet. What is there to accomplish?"
actually keep doing what you are doing, it makes it easier to prove later on that you are probably a spy
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
"So you have an obvious goal of trying to get people to distrust me, giving and having no reasons for doing so, but I'm the spy? "
if anyone reads your posts and thinks, "this is obvious town killjoy", then they have far worse problems than to worry about me trying to persuade them of the obvious
@Cantrip
Because if grr is the next leader, it's add more variance to mission 2, and I like by the book, because he's on mission 1 and mission 2 is usually mission 1 + the proposer of the next mission, unless of course it fails, which we can't do if he's on mission 1 as well
How is that different from him being on mission 1, mission 1 passing, and him choosing the same team (including him) + 1 new?
I do agree with you about Spike. Him saying Jones has no agenda makes no sense. Everyone has an agenda... that's the game. You're trying to either make it so missions fail or make it so unknowns are sent on missions to see if they fail. And for that reason, I'm gonna deny this mission. I need to be able to trust that the people on the mission are who Spike says they ahh, and who is sent on the dummy mission. I can't be actively distrusting the mission leader."
Maybe I'm not communicating well? Wisp just seems really...open. Transparent. Like I get his motivations and I don't see much in the way of subterfuge or posturing. He's positioning, but he's being straightforward about it.
"Yo Spike. Where'd that aggression come from? 'Why are you not paying attention'? Do we need to take this outside?
Delicate operation needs focus, attention, Doc. If no attention, details overlooked, job fails. Not going to prison for you or anyone else, not because you're an informant, not because you get sloppy and make mistake.
(Seriously, it feels weird for players to be saying "it doesn't matter who we send" and then "but not THIS mission". It feels even weirder for you to say both in the same post. And I can't understand why you would take the first significant moment of the game (my mission proposal) and derp on it like that. (If it really doesn't matter, then sure, but you're proving that it DOES matter to you, and "if you had paid attention the first time" you wouldn't have initially said you were ok with it. So...I don't know what to make of what feels to me like a mindset discrepancy.)
Quote from KJ »
There's nothing 'wrong' with that mindset, ya know like... out of hand. I've just never seen it before. It's also kinda shortsighted and doesn't help anyone solve the game. Remembuh that behavya isn't a big deal. It doesn't tell you very much."
Ok, so then why does it make you think Wisp is an informant?
Feelings of posturing/fake posts from you in 6 ("dummy mission?"), 13, 25 ("lol, since it doesn't matter who goes on the first mission, let's leave it up to flavor!" And then you have since proceeded to communicate that it *does* matter who goes.) and then your push/just kidding/not really on Lurk!Riku in 36.
How is it more scum indicative to suggest flavor early for fun and then move to a point where I actually care about the mission team composition?
Doesn’t really matter what I say at this point, but I legit didn’t read the rules about dummy mission and that stood out to me from your opening post.
Ruma being VLA means it probably isn’t relevant anymore, but you should recall that I can read Ruma pretty well, including reading into his absence.
Quote from Cantrip »
Rhand's posts up til then were:
14/16: Intro and /barn KJ that this will be a numbers game.
18: slight towns LnG, doesn't really commit on Shadow (still early, so ok).
24: flavor
28: flavor
35: flavor
43: "I don't think it matters who goes on the first mission."
47: muddies the waters on his LnG read, but finishes with "LnG is probably town/we should auto-include him"
49: fun response to LnG
51: hints at having insight that scum shouldn't get, pushes for the mission proposal
54: accuses Shadow of pocketing, reasserts being ok with any mission proposal
56: comes around to being ok with Shadow on the mission (but he had already said multiple times that he was ok with any mission, so why does he have to come around to Shadow?) because either the mission will pass or we'll get info, which he calls a win/win. But if it's generally agreed that the first mission is likely to succeed regardless, then a pass on mission 1 isn't a "win", it's just "how the game usually goes".
58: "is this serious?" in response to Wisp saying he will only vote for missions he's on.
60: "sigh"
63: Fake-sounding question to Shadow about how "town" and "suspicion" fit together.
So...no. I don't think your read on Rhand in 69 was sincere, because I don't see him progressing the game beyond "any team is fine hurr durr propose something".
We have wildly different views of Rhand if you read and tabulate this entire iso and all you get is hurr durr. Also, I’m almost certain 63 was due to English not being Rhand’s native language rather than anything else.
Quote from cantrip »
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I've liked several things I've seen from LnG
Which things?
I *didn't* like that he thought I was asking what I could do to prove to him that I was an informant rather than a robber, but pretty much everything after that. I like that he's thinking about multiple potential paths and not just going along with the "first mission will probably pass, doesn't matter" mindset, I felt like his uncertainty about possible other mafia roles in 20 was sincere, I liked his response to you in 40 because it sounded like he was seriously disappointed (and maybe confused) that you would ask him that obvious question, I liked the joking with me in 41, I liked his trying to puzzle out the dummy mission in 74 (even if it wasn't accurate) and that he was ok with a non-him mission, and I like that he's asking you about hypotheticals if my proposal doesn't pass.
I feel like a lot of the same style of stuff from Rhand you called “flavor” you’re actively reading into on lng. I don’t mind the “well first mission might not pass” mindset, but it’s a pretty easy one to take, because, yeah, it’s not guaranteed that the first mission will pass, but if it does, the game becomes much easier, so it’s not likely.
Quote from Cantrip »
Actually, I see [Last’s] thought process as ridiculously transparent and mirroring my own.
Whats his read on me, and why, using only posts before the one I’m quoting?
Quote from Cantrip »
Also, lol at the multiple posts from players going "whatever mission is fine for round 1, doesn't really matter, just propose something" "oh wait, that's a crap proposal".
Rhand has been the one most actively saying that, and as far as I can tell he stand by it. Also, not really sure why you take issue with people caring who goes on missions.
@Shadow, I'm not saying I would or wouldn't put you on the team; I'm just asking you assume for the sake of argument that I wouldn't. What team would you suggest I propose?
@cantrip
Because... Again, the only confirmed info you have is yourself, so if mission 1 passes it's best to just do it again + yourself, and you can't do that if you are already on mission 1...
Which means you'd have to go with one another unknown which makes the possibility of mission 2 failing a lot higher, with it already being very high regardless
Okay.
Just iso’d you, couple questions:
-why did you initially not want me on the mission?
-what pings you about KJ’s 125?
-Any thoughts on Ruma’s only post?
-Why did you tell Lng to basically not read you?
I’m of two minds, I stand by my early feelings on you, but I want to get a bit more depth and see if I’m just confbiasing your later posts.
I stand by Cantrips take of you being a load of hooey, no offense.
Feelings of posturing/fake posts from you in 6 ("dummy mission?"), 13, 25 ("lol, since it doesn't matter who goes on the first mission, let's leave it up to flavor!" And then you have since proceeded to communicate that it *does* matter who goes.) and then your push/just kidding/not really on Lurk!Riku in 36.
How is it more scum indicative to suggest flavor early for fun and then move to a point where I actually care about the mission team composition?
Because it felt like you were seriously fine with "whatever, let's use flavor for fun", but then that wasn't actually the case.
Quote from Shadow »
Doesn’t really matter what I say at this point, but I legit didn’t read the rules about dummy mission and that stood out to me from your opening post.
If you're telling the truth...I'm sorry, I guess? But it always blows me away when players sign up for a game and profess that they didn't notice the special rules. That's, like, the first thing I look for because it's invariably going to be a discussion point and possibly a way to gain an advantage over the opposing team. That's on the low end of why I think you're an informant, though, because it happens frequently, from both alignments, afaict.
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Ruma being VLA means it probably isn’t relevant anymore, but you should recall that I can read Ruma pretty well, including reading into his absence.
Ok? How does that relate to the price of tea in China?
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We have wildly different views of Rhand if you read and tabulate this entire iso and all you get is hurr durr. Also, I’m almost certain 63 was due to English not being Rhand’s native language rather than anything else.
No, I don't just get "hurr durr"; there's quite a bit of fluff in there, too. But you're probably right about 63.
Quote from Shadow »
I feel like a lot of the same style of stuff from Rhand you called “flavor” you’re actively reading into on lng. I don’t mind the “well first mission might not pass” mindset, but it’s a pretty easy one to take, because, yeah, it’s not guaranteed that the first mission will pass, but if it does, the game becomes much easier, so it’s not likely.
Be specific in this comparison: point to the posts that are similar between Rhand and LnG that I'm calling scum for the former and town for the latter. I agree that they have some similar posts, but I don't agree that I'm calling LnG town for any of them.
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Actually, I see [Last’s] thought process as ridiculously transparent and mirroring my own.
Whats his read on me, and why, using only posts before the one I’m quoting?
(By "the one I'm quoting", you're saying before post 107?) If so, then he initially doesn't trust you, but warmed to you in the process of the mission proposal. He wants to replace you on a proposed team in 53, 64 he indicates that he doesn't know how to read you. 86 he flips his read on you, calling you and him v/v (which, I note, aligns with his stated self-meta), and then 92 he's backing you, with reasons that I didn't initially understand, but now (mostly) do. What's your point with this question?
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Quote from Cantrip »
Also, lol at the multiple posts from players going "whatever mission is fine for round 1, doesn't really matter, just propose something" "oh wait, that's a crap proposal".
Rhand has been the one most actively saying that, and as far as I can tell he stand by it. Also, not really sure why you take issue with people caring who goes on missions.
Yes, Rhand sticking to his guns on not caring is a good sign, imo. I like him better for it. But you're sidestepping the issue. I'm happy that people care about who goes on missions. I'm dissatisfied with an initial professed mindset of "it doesn't matter" followed by "whoops, I mean, obviously it does matter". You, KJ, and Wisp have all essentially taken that stance, and I distrust the mindset discrepancy.
@cantrip
Because... Again, the only confirmed info you have is yourself, so if mission 1 passes it's best to just do it again + yourself, and you can't do that if you are already on mission 1...
Which means you'd have to go with one another unknown which makes the possibility of mission 2 failing a lot higher, with it already being very high regardless
Hmm, ok, I see what you're saying now. I didn't have as much time when I proposed the mission as I would have liked, but I wanted to do so before I had to go to jury duty. I didn't really consider the mission leader order as well as I should have, obviously. I still think my proposal is good; having a pass with the three of us and then LnG picking a top town read would be fine with me.
@shadow
1. Originally I saw some resemblance to your entrance that I saw in the MTGS team mafia game, but then you started producing thoughts that to me at least don't feel forced, enough to quell my fears for today's mission
2. Both #125 and #127? I think both just seem to be busy body work, lots of words? Do you think I'm jumping the gun?
3. Same thoughts as you, but then again it's Ruma, and I expect these things from him, I think I can read him very well, but it's still too early
4. Tbh idk, but hedging on me is always bad, because I doubt anything I do will quell everyone's fears on my slot, or make me look super towny... You think that interaction was W/W?
(To Spike) "I don't cah who gets sent on this first mission. Theh's two people. Failing it would be stupid. But I need to feel like I can trust that YOU aren't lying if it does fail, because it does occasionally fail. Last time that happened to me, I lost as town.
I'm mildly paranoid of a situation where you send yourself, one of us, and one of your informant buddies, then say you sent the informant on the dummy mission. That's just a lot of wine I don't want to wade through in the first mission.
Does that make sense? Also, do you agree that the mission leadeh should be trustworthy (or at least not the opposite) befoah deciding on missions?
And about Jones and why he might be an informant: My initial impression is he's thinking too far ahead, and too small picture. There's gonna be some missions where he shouldn't go. We don't want to send untested people on the later missions. Maybe I need to make a dive into his head a bit more, because maybe 'I want to be on every mission' is too brazen for FBI. I'm batting that around in my head as well.
Question: How much of your distrust of Slick is based on Fingers opinions, and how much is based on Slick himself?
Aside: I'm kinda curious if my method for reading him will extend to this game.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Okay.
Just iso’d you, couple questions:
-why did you initially not want me on the mission?
-what pings you about KJ’s 125?
-Any thoughts on Ruma’s only post?
-Why did you tell Lng to basically not read you?
I’m of two minds, I stand by my early feelings on you, but I want to get a bit more depth and see if I’m just confbiasing your later posts.
I stand by Cantrips take of you being a load of hooey, no offense.
"Hey, Fingehs. What's the point of asking about the Mystery Man's only post? What response was you expecting?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I think I prefer it that way. It makes more logical sense.
LnG and Wisp were actually PoE choices, as I think Shadow is quite likely to be a FIBber, and he's pushing for Rhand, so I don't trust him, either. Riku is still AWOL, and KJ seems very calculated so far this game. I've liked several things I've seen from LnG, and Wisp seems very carefree, without an agenda.
I'll provide more tomorrow, as I had jury duty today and then spent an unbelievable amount of time at the doctor's office for a concern that doesn't seem to be serious, at least not at this time. And now it's very late. So...dosvedanya.
B. What is your actual read on Rhand/do you disagree with my assessment of him thus far? Non zero chance that makes him scum, agree or disagree? What does that tell you about his alignment? Which things? No. this is an awful read and does not actually reflect the reality of Last’s play this game at all, he’s had a significant agenda trying to strongman into a quest without actually getting there natively, been unable to justify reads, and is playing sort of a cross between attack and appease game directed at me. Take care of yourself!
This Cantrip post is like...baaaad. It’s ridiculously removed from reality. Decent chance Cantrip and last are buddies, but I would almost say it’s possible white knighting.
Ugh. I actually liked Cantrip up to this point too. Bah, I want quest data, but really don’t want to send either of them on quests.
I don’t think Cantrip/Last/Lng is the exact team (hilarious post game cred for me if it is) but that triumvirate is nefarious; both last and Cantrip’s posturing/reads on/towards lng are dubious.
So I'm not exactly sure how this game works, so forgive me if I make errors. If my reading correct, claiming is AOK and in fact expected here?
@Shadow: since when do you omgus?
I'm more inclined to believe that Shadows thoughts seem real, but I can see where your re coming from (not really tho)
I'm not approving this mission though, for reasons I've already defined
And if it fails on either mission 1 or 2, I'm very inclined to believe Cantrip is actually one of the mafia
Of course that's not the exact team, since I'm town, and it's bad to put a partner on a team with you, if Cantrip is actually red...
The number of fails on each mission should be outted in public, it's dangerous to have two mafia on mission 1, unless they have communication to say which one will fail the mission, come mission two
That said, omgus is a tool I’ve used before in cases where someone’s scum read on me is fishy, and especially after I didn’t push eco harder in secret agent Mafia, I’m more acutely aware of bull crap suggestions that I’m scum.
*doesn't provide content*
@Ruma, can I get your two strongest opinions on players in this game?
Feelings of posturing/fake posts from you in 6 ("dummy mission?"), 13, 25 ("lol, since it doesn't matter who goes on the first mission, let's leave it up to flavor!" And then you have since proceeded to communicate that it *does* matter who goes.) and then your push/just kidding/not really on Lurk!Riku in 36.
In 69 you said
14/16: Intro and /barn KJ that this will be a numbers game.
18: slight towns LnG, doesn't really commit on Shadow (still early, so ok).
24: flavor
28: flavor
35: flavor
43: "I don't think it matters who goes on the first mission."
47: muddies the waters on his LnG read, but finishes with "LnG is probably town/we should auto-include him"
49: fun response to LnG
51: hints at having insight that scum shouldn't get, pushes for the mission proposal
54: accuses Shadow of pocketing, reasserts being ok with any mission proposal
56: comes around to being ok with Shadow on the mission (but he had already said multiple times that he was ok with any mission, so why does he have to come around to Shadow?) because either the mission will pass or we'll get info, which he calls a win/win. But if it's generally agreed that the first mission is likely to succeed regardless, then a pass on mission 1 isn't a "win", it's just "how the game usually goes".
58: "is this serious?" in response to Wisp saying he will only vote for missions he's on.
60: "sigh"
63: Fake-sounding question to Shadow about how "town" and "suspicion" fit together.
So...no. I don't think your read on Rhand in 69 was sincere, because I don't see him progressing the game beyond "any team is fine hurr durr propose something".
Agree. So what?
Maybe nothing? But it makes me a little more leery.
I *didn't* like that he thought I was asking what I could do to prove to him that I was an informant rather than a robber, but pretty much everything after that. I like that he's thinking about multiple potential paths and not just going along with the "first mission will probably pass, doesn't matter" mindset, I felt like his uncertainty about possible other mafia roles in 20 was sincere, I liked his response to you in 40 because it sounded like he was seriously disappointed (and maybe confused) that you would ask him that obvious question, I liked the joking with me in 41, I liked his trying to puzzle out the dummy mission in 74 (even if it wasn't accurate) and that he was ok with a non-him mission, and I like that he's asking you about hypotheticals if my proposal doesn't pass.
Actually, I see his thought process as ridiculously transparent and mirroring my own.
I will also mention that I have another reason for my choices that I will not make public until after the mission goes (if it goes as proposed). (No, this isn't intended as a curiosity carrot to make you want to agree with the mission; I just want to make it clear that I'm not laying all my cards on the table.)
@Wisp: Clarify for me why you don't like my proposal?
@KJ: Why did you think Shadow was on my proposal/why aren't you paying attention to the game? Regarding Wisp, what is wrong with the town mindset of "I want to be on every mission because I know I'm town"?
Also, lol at the multiple posts from players going "whatever mission is fine for round 1, doesn't really matter, just propose something" "oh wait, that's a crap proposal".
@Shadow, I'm not saying I would or wouldn't put you on the team; I'm just asking you assume for the sake of argument that I wouldn't. What team would you suggest I propose?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@Shadow, I'm not saying I would or wouldn't put you on the team; I'm just asking you assume for the sake of argument that I wouldn't. What team would you suggest I propose?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Because if grr is the next leader, it's add more variance to mission 2, and I like by the book, because he's on mission 1 and mission 2 is usually mission 1 + the proposer of the next mission, unless of course it fails, which we can't do if he's on mission 1 as well
I don't think the addition of the trapper, changes the balance of the teams... So it's 4/3 based on how resistance games are balanced
Fingers, we have to let people we don't like go on missions sometimes. That's how strong suspicions evolve intah facts. Otherwise we might be condemning someone for the whole game wrongly. And honestly, if it succeeds, I don't care who's on it. As long as we don't falsely towncleah someone, it doesn't hurt us.
I do agree with you about Spike. Him saying Jones has no agenda makes no sense. Everyone has an agenda... that's the game. You're trying to either make it so missions fail or make it so unknowns are sent on missions to see if they fail. And for that reason, I'm gonna deny this mission. I need to be able to trust that the people on the mission are who Spike says they ahh, and who is sent on the dummy mission. I can't be actively distrusting the mission leader."
Don't know which one is the spy though, but I'm leaning towards it not being shadow
And im also not a fan of Rhand's posts on the top of page 2
"Yo Spike. Where'd that aggression come from? 'Why are you not paying attention'? Do we need to take this outside?
There's nothing 'wrong' with that mindset, ya know like... out of hand. I've just never seen it before. It's also kinda shortsighted and doesn't help anyone solve the game. Remembuh that behavya isn't a big deal. It doesn't tell you very much."
Maybe I'm not communicating well? Wisp just seems really...open. Transparent. Like I get his motivations and I don't see much in the way of subterfuge or posturing. He's positioning, but he's being straightforward about it.
Delicate operation needs focus, attention, Doc. If no attention, details overlooked, job fails. Not going to prison for you or anyone else, not because you're an informant, not because you get sloppy and make mistake.
(Seriously, it feels weird for players to be saying "it doesn't matter who we send" and then "but not THIS mission". It feels even weirder for you to say both in the same post. And I can't understand why you would take the first significant moment of the game (my mission proposal) and derp on it like that. (If it really doesn't matter, then sure, but you're proving that it DOES matter to you, and "if you had paid attention the first time" you wouldn't have initially said you were ok with it. So...I don't know what to make of what feels to me like a mindset discrepancy.)
Ok, so then why does it make you think Wisp is an informant?
Doesn’t really matter what I say at this point, but I legit didn’t read the rules about dummy mission and that stood out to me from your opening post.
Ruma being VLA means it probably isn’t relevant anymore, but you should recall that I can read Ruma pretty well, including reading into his absence.
We have wildly different views of Rhand if you read and tabulate this entire iso and all you get is hurr durr. Also, I’m almost certain 63 was due to English not being Rhand’s native language rather than anything else. I feel like a lot of the same style of stuff from Rhand you called “flavor” you’re actively reading into on lng. I don’t mind the “well first mission might not pass” mindset, but it’s a pretty easy one to take, because, yeah, it’s not guaranteed that the first mission will pass, but if it does, the game becomes much easier, so it’s not likely.
Whats his read on me, and why, using only posts before the one I’m quoting? Rhand has been the one most actively saying that, and as far as I can tell he stand by it. Also, not really sure why you take issue with people caring who goes on missions. Rhand, KJ...crap I don’t know. Heck maybe you?
Because... Again, the only confirmed info you have is yourself, so if mission 1 passes it's best to just do it again + yourself, and you can't do that if you are already on mission 1...
Which means you'd have to go with one another unknown which makes the possibility of mission 2 failing a lot higher, with it already being very high regardless
Just iso’d you, couple questions:
-why did you initially not want me on the mission?
-what pings you about KJ’s 125?
-Any thoughts on Ruma’s only post?
-Why did you tell Lng to basically not read you?
I’m of two minds, I stand by my early feelings on you, but I want to get a bit more depth and see if I’m just confbiasing your later posts.
I stand by Cantrips take of you being a load of hooey, no offense.
If you're telling the truth...I'm sorry, I guess? But it always blows me away when players sign up for a game and profess that they didn't notice the special rules. That's, like, the first thing I look for because it's invariably going to be a discussion point and possibly a way to gain an advantage over the opposing team. That's on the low end of why I think you're an informant, though, because it happens frequently, from both alignments, afaict.
Ok? How does that relate to the price of tea in China?
No, I don't just get "hurr durr"; there's quite a bit of fluff in there, too. But you're probably right about 63.
Be specific in this comparison: point to the posts that are similar between Rhand and LnG that I'm calling scum for the former and town for the latter. I agree that they have some similar posts, but I don't agree that I'm calling LnG town for any of them.
(By "the one I'm quoting", you're saying before post 107?) If so, then he initially doesn't trust you, but warmed to you in the process of the mission proposal. He wants to replace you on a proposed team in 53, 64 he indicates that he doesn't know how to read you. 86 he flips his read on you, calling you and him v/v (which, I note, aligns with his stated self-meta), and then 92 he's backing you, with reasons that I didn't initially understand, but now (mostly) do. What's your point with this question?
Yes, Rhand sticking to his guns on not caring is a good sign, imo. I like him better for it. But you're sidestepping the issue. I'm happy that people care about who goes on missions. I'm dissatisfied with an initial professed mindset of "it doesn't matter" followed by "whoops, I mean, obviously it does matter". You, KJ, and Wisp have all essentially taken that stance, and I distrust the mindset discrepancy.
Hmm, ok, I see what you're saying now. I didn't have as much time when I proposed the mission as I would have liked, but I wanted to do so before I had to go to jury duty. I didn't really consider the mission leader order as well as I should have, obviously. I still think my proposal is good; having a pass with the three of us and then LnG picking a top town read would be fine with me.
1. Originally I saw some resemblance to your entrance that I saw in the MTGS team mafia game, but then you started producing thoughts that to me at least don't feel forced, enough to quell my fears for today's mission
2. Both #125 and #127? I think both just seem to be busy body work, lots of words? Do you think I'm jumping the gun?
3. Same thoughts as you, but then again it's Ruma, and I expect these things from him, I think I can read him very well, but it's still too early
4. Tbh idk, but hedging on me is always bad, because I doubt anything I do will quell everyone's fears on my slot, or make me look super towny... You think that interaction was W/W?
(For record, sorry for not being the flavor. Being Russian meathead comes not naturally to me.)
I'm mildly paranoid of a situation where you send yourself, one of us, and one of your informant buddies, then say you sent the informant on the dummy mission. That's just a lot of wine I don't want to wade through in the first mission.
Does that make sense? Also, do you agree that the mission leadeh should be trustworthy (or at least not the opposite) befoah deciding on missions?
And about Jones and why he might be an informant: My initial impression is he's thinking too far ahead, and too small picture. There's gonna be some missions where he shouldn't go. We don't want to send untested people on the later missions. Maybe I need to make a dive into his head a bit more, because maybe 'I want to be on every mission' is too brazen for FBI. I'm batting that around in my head as well.
Question: How much of your distrust of Slick is based on Fingers opinions, and how much is based on Slick himself?
Aside: I'm kinda curious if my method for reading him will extend to this game.
Maybe it is the roleplay... I didn't even notice that was what he was doing
If u wanna roleplay, can you at least put players names next to flavor names? Cause I don't have that ***** written down...