Each player gets a 1-shot token of their role, scum share a pool of their tokens.
Factional Kill.
Scum have daychat and learn the unused role for falseclaiming purposes.
There is no Nighttalk.
This game follows a majority lynch.
Town wins when they eliminate Scum.
Scum wins when they eliminate Town or when that cannot be prevented (i.e. They control the lynch.)
Dont be a dick
Keep the game in the game
Dont make me write more rules
Alive:
1. Anak
2. Lngrr
3. Cantrip
4. Rhand
5. Shadow
6. Osi
7. Kj
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hmm...in the worst circumstances, this game can end at the start of day 2. That’s annoying. And makes me mildly interested in people’s thoughts on a no lynch day one.
I was going to say we should be fine if the desperado doesn’t shoot and the miller doesn’t claim in case there’s a claim vig, but that would mean we can’t push anyone to claim and then not lynch them :/
Hmm, looking at the setup, we should all claim a target if town has the desperado, then if they are in game and come back dead, we have a likely confirmed town.
I was going to say we should be fine if the desperado doesn’t shoot and the miller doesn’t claim in case there’s a claim vig, but that would mean we can’t push anyone to claim and then not lynch them :/
Yeah, I think that’s not really worth it? Obviously if there is a desperado and we do decide to lynch, they should claim, but otherwise it’s probably too much of a risk.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Why not? Town Miller means I lose very little by claiming.
If I'm framer and whether or not there's a town Desperado, then:
If there's no Alignment Cop, I claim a red-check on town Day 2, then say on the flip "Oh, another person must be the framer..." and wine for days.
If there's an Alignment Cop, I try to match their most likely town target with a frame.
Desperado Shenanigans are less significant for me, though if I hit their target, then yay, I guess.
Claiming Miller isn't the option I'd personally go for there as the Framer. That said, I could rely on a buddy to use the Framer token. But claiming Miller is still risky at that point because it means that I'm never in LYLO.
As town, it's a semi-confirm.
%%%
#14 sounds like Rhand likely knows that the miller exists.
@Osie: you realize though that by claiming, if we mislynch today and scum have a claim vig, we almost certainly lose unless there is a successful doctor protect.
He claimed literally right after Rhand and I talked about why claiming would be bad, which means either he doesn’t care, or he knows there isn’t a claim vig and thinks the Miller claim will get him credit. And he would only know that if he were scum and the desperado/claim vig token wasn’t in play.
Basically, I’m really struggling to see why you would claim if you’re town here because you’re not a dumb player, and there is a bunch of risk involved with claiming.
Vote Rhand For being too busy to make it down here for a fest tent at Fruhlingsfest. I would get the first beer dangit!
@Orb, can you explain your Rhand RVS vote read? Rhand has voted me in 3 games consecutively for the same thing.
Too lazy to Google (working looking hours next two weeks, roughly 11 to 12 hours plus the weekends), midnight desperado chooses to shoot someone if NK'd, right?
I will look at the Osie thing when I have brain recovery time.
He claimed literally right after Rhand and I talked about why claiming would be bad, which means either he doesn’t care, or he knows there isn’t a claim vig and thinks the Miller claim will get him credit. And he would only know that if he were scum and the desperado/claim vig token wasn’t in play.
I didn't get that. But I figured I'd claim in the first post as Miller either way. I don't think that the claim is necessarily a problem, though. I mean, the problem case for me is:
Scum specifically have claim vig and claim vig me tonight.
I know that I'm the miller, so that coin is taken out of the game. The chance that the killing token is in the game is 1-(1/7)=(6/7) since 1 token is not in the game. The chance that the scum have it given that it's in the game is therefore (6/7)*(2/6) = (2/7) = 28.5% chance (Math there is may not be quite accurate, but it's certainly not a higher chance.)
And in that case, what, we still just no lynch, as you were suggesting anyways, and then we're not immediately dead?
I'm just not convinced that it's not better for the town miller to follow normal procedure and claim here. It lowers the pool for the cop to check since they know that whether or not that player is scum, they shouldn't be checked. It makes scum have to specifically kill that player, or leave that town player alive to be lynched, unless they specifically have a claim vig. Leaving the player alive makes it more risky that the player figures out who the scum are and explains this to town before death. I have enough confidence in my ability to read the game that claiming this role means that if scum are playing well, the only reason that I'm still alive after Night 1 is that scum want to push my mislynch on Day 2. Which makes it very easy for myself and the rest of town to figure out who the scum are based on who pushes me on Day 2.
Scum equity on claiming miller I haven't thought about yet, but I don't think it's nearly as significant, especially given your discussion. It makes more sense to go with the flow as scum at that point.
I wanted to post the list of roles as I interpret them. (I'm assuming Tom is using the same interpretations.)
Midnight Desperado - As a night action, may try to kill a player. That player's alignment is checked. If that player is town, you die instead.
Claim Vigilante - As a night action, you may try to kill a player if you can correctly state that player's role.
AC - As a night action, you may target a player. You learn that player's alignment.
Strongman - You may make the factional kill unpreventable.
Miller - You will show up as Scum to alignment checks.
Framer - As a night action, target player shows as Scum to alignment checks.
Bodyguard - As a night action, you may target a player. That player is protected from kills tonight. If you prevent a kill this way, you die.
Godfather - You will show up as Town to alignment checks.
Motivator - As a night action, you may target a player. That player may use any one of their token(s) tonight, whether or not they have used them so far.
Roleblocker - As a night action, you may target a player. That player's actions are prevented.
Doctor - As a night action, you may target a player. That player is protected from kills tonight.
Thief - As a night action, you may target a player. You gain an item from that player. You do not gain any extra shots of any token whether or not it has been used.
Watcher - As a night action, you may target a player. You learn who targeted that player this night.
Baker - As a night action, you may target a player. That player receives a loaf of bread. It is an item with no use.
I’m not actually convinced no lynch is best, but I want the conversation to happen.
I still think you’re taking a risk with claiming that isn’t really fair; if you’re town you just gave a 30% chance for a loss without any control by anyone else.
I’m not actually convinced no lynch is best, but I want the conversation to happen.
I still think you’re taking a risk with claiming that isn’t really fair; if you’re town you just gave a 30% chance for a loss without any control by anyone else.
Wait, though, that's not fair.
30% chance is ONLY the claimvig. We also have to mislynch AND neither kill can be protected.
I’m not actually convinced no lynch is best, but I want the conversation to happen.
I still think you’re taking a risk with claiming that isn’t really fair; if you’re town you just gave a 30% chance for a loss without any control by anyone else.
Wait, though, that's not fair.
30% chance is ONLY the claimvig. We also have to mislynch AND neither kill can be protected.
Eh, I’ll grant that to you. I just am not thrilled that you went that route if you’re town. And if you’re scum, it introduces WIFOM which annoys me.
I’m not actually convinced no lynch is best, but I want the conversation to happen.
I still think you’re taking a risk with claiming that isn’t really fair; if you’re town you just gave a 30% chance for a loss without any control by anyone else.
Wait, though, that's not fair.
30% chance is ONLY the claimvig. We also have to mislynch AND neither kill can be protected.
Eh, I’ll grant that to you. I just am not thrilled that you went that route if you’re town. And if you’re scum, it introduces WIFOM which annoys me.
I'm not convinced that not claiming is productive though. Miller is a negative-utility role. If I don't claim, it does nothing. If I do claim, most of the time it helps town more than hurts it, it's just risky.
I almost started “I’m not convinced that’s accurate” but realized that I think we’re both unconvinced by the other. Whatever, I hope you’re right, and I don’t actually want to lynch you currently, so that’s something.
I almost started “I’m not convinced that’s accurate” but realized that I think we’re both unconvinced by the other. Whatever, I hope you’re right, and I don’t actually want to lynch you currently, so that’s something.
Oh man, I've achieved a game where Shadow doesn't want to lynch me! YAY!
In other news, I made this:
IMO Town strats this setup:
Midnight Despy: CLAIM D2 or if at L2/L1. Shoots N1, avoiding the Miller and hopes there's no Godfather.
Alignment Cop: CLAIM D2 or if at L2/L1. Checks N1, avoiding the Miller and hopes there's no Godfather.
Miller: CLAIM First Post and then town it up the rest of the game.
Bodyguard: CLAIM D2 or if at L2/L1. Protects a likely kill-target N1.
Motivator: CLAIM D3 or if at L2/L1. Motivates N2 unless claims suggest good motivation N1.
Doctor: CLAIM D2 or if at L2/L1. Protects a likely kill-target N1.
Watcher: CLAIM D2. Watches a likely kill-target N1.
Baker: CLAIM D2. Aims for an unlikely kill target who they still think is town.
I’ve not wanted to lynch you in other games, calm your britches. Also, still think before end of day everyone should claim a desperado target in case we have one and they off themselves.
I’ve not wanted to lynch you in other games, calm your britches. Also, still think before end of day everyone should claim a desperado target in case we have one and they off themselves.
Do they claim their actual target of their role or just a target at random? I suggested actual target in this Matrix 6 game, with ideally no claims day 1, but with the miller I think this setup lends itself to that role claiming. It's not the worst idea to not claim, but then the miller is just playing VT with a disadvantage which is suboptimal.
Pretty much, should I even bother to fakeclaim a town target given that scum will be aware that it's probably a fakeclaim, so there's little to no equity in me doing so?
Osie - Myself.
Shadow - Town, Organic process and #44 feels like it comes from town Shadow more than 50% of the time.
Anak - Null, need to see more.
Cantrip - Null, slight scumping on entry, but Shadow seeming townie gives me hope here.
Killjoy - Light Scumlean, I didn't like his sitting back, but I'm not totally sure that it's alignment indicative one way or another.
LnGrrrR - Scumlean, Busywork and bizarreness with the "lying in a townie way." Oh, and I missed #30's question. See below.
Rhand - Light Scumread, #14 and a general je-ne-sais-quoi in regards to focus and attitude.
Scum
LnGrrrR #30 Question:
@Orb, can you explain your Rhand RVS vote read? Rhand has voted me in 3 games consecutively for the same thing.
See above. #14 was more significant for me than the tonal elements but either by themselves wouldn't do it if not for the lack of anything significant from anyone else.
Also, that explanatory sentence concerns me. Even outside of you not having scumpings from him not doing that to me, I'm also not sure why you would say that given that, well, it's not like you two have been super active here, so those games are a while back and it's a bit weird for you to bring it up as town, especially if you think Rhand is town and your vote is just RVS, like you expressed. But if you're also thinking that Rhand is actually scum, I'm not totally sure why you hold that read back.
Midnight Desperado/Claim-Vig
Alignment Cop/Strongman
Miller/Framer
Bodyguard/Godfather
Motivator/Roleblocker
Doctor/Thief
Watcher
Baker
Each player gets a 1-shot token of their role, scum share a pool of their tokens.
Factional Kill.
Scum have daychat and learn the unused role for falseclaiming purposes.
There is no Nighttalk.
This game follows a majority lynch.
Town wins when they eliminate Scum.
Scum wins when they eliminate Town or when that cannot be prevented (i.e. They control the lynch.)
Keep the game in the game
Dont make me write more rules
Alive:
1. Anak
2. Lngrr
3. Cantrip
4. Rhand
5. Shadow
6. Osi
7. Kj
Replacements:
1. Grape
It is day 1, you may post
I hate daylight savings time. That is all.
We hate it.
HARD CLAIM MILLER.
Also, Vote Rhand 25% serious vote for potential perspective slip in #14, 75% RVS vote.
What is a perspective slip?
I have thoughts about this, but I want Osie to respond to you first.
unvote
I want to see how this plays out.
Yo Shadow, explain about Osie.
Why not? Town Miller means I lose very little by claiming.
If I'm framer and whether or not there's a town Desperado, then:
If there's no Alignment Cop, I claim a red-check on town Day 2, then say on the flip "Oh, another person must be the framer..." and wine for days.
If there's an Alignment Cop, I try to match their most likely town target with a frame.
Desperado Shenanigans are less significant for me, though if I hit their target, then yay, I guess.
Claiming Miller isn't the option I'd personally go for there as the Framer. That said, I could rely on a buddy to use the Framer token. But claiming Miller is still risky at that point because it means that I'm never in LYLO.
As town, it's a semi-confirm.
%%%
#14 sounds like Rhand likely knows that the miller exists.
@Orb, can you explain your Rhand RVS vote read? Rhand has voted me in 3 games consecutively for the same thing.
Too lazy to Google (working looking hours next two weeks, roughly 11 to 12 hours plus the weekends), midnight desperado chooses to shoot someone if NK'd, right?
I will look at the Osie thing when I have brain recovery time.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Why do you specifically think it’s townie lying? Like, don’t get into specifics, but why do you think if he’s lying, it is a townie move?
I didn't get that. But I figured I'd claim in the first post as Miller either way. I don't think that the claim is necessarily a problem, though. I mean, the problem case for me is:
And in that case, what, we still just no lynch, as you were suggesting anyways, and then we're not immediately dead?
I'm just not convinced that it's not better for the town miller to follow normal procedure and claim here. It lowers the pool for the cop to check since they know that whether or not that player is scum, they shouldn't be checked. It makes scum have to specifically kill that player, or leave that town player alive to be lynched, unless they specifically have a claim vig. Leaving the player alive makes it more risky that the player figures out who the scum are and explains this to town before death. I have enough confidence in my ability to read the game that claiming this role means that if scum are playing well, the only reason that I'm still alive after Night 1 is that scum want to push my mislynch on Day 2. Which makes it very easy for myself and the rest of town to figure out who the scum are based on who pushes me on Day 2.
Scum equity on claiming miller I haven't thought about yet, but I don't think it's nearly as significant, especially given your discussion. It makes more sense to go with the flow as scum at that point.
Yeah, this doesn't make sense to me either. There's no reason for town to fakeclaim miller here.
I... don't think I can do both those things.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Now that he's responded... What are you worried about here?
I still think you’re taking a risk with claiming that isn’t really fair; if you’re town you just gave a 30% chance for a loss without any control by anyone else.
Wait, though, that's not fair.
30% chance is ONLY the claimvig. We also have to mislynch AND neither kill can be protected.
So exactly what I thought. Cool.
I'm not convinced that not claiming is productive though. Miller is a negative-utility role. If I don't claim, it does nothing. If I do claim, most of the time it helps town more than hurts it, it's just risky.
Oh man, I've achieved a game where Shadow doesn't want to lynch me! YAY!
In other news, I made this:
IMO Town strats this setup:
Midnight Despy: CLAIM D2 or if at L2/L1. Shoots N1, avoiding the Miller and hopes there's no Godfather.
Alignment Cop: CLAIM D2 or if at L2/L1. Checks N1, avoiding the Miller and hopes there's no Godfather.
Miller: CLAIM First Post and then town it up the rest of the game.
Bodyguard: CLAIM D2 or if at L2/L1. Protects a likely kill-target N1.
Motivator: CLAIM D3 or if at L2/L1. Motivates N2 unless claims suggest good motivation N1.
Doctor: CLAIM D2 or if at L2/L1. Protects a likely kill-target N1.
Watcher: CLAIM D2. Watches a likely kill-target N1.
Baker: CLAIM D2. Aims for an unlikely kill target who they still think is town.
Do they claim their actual target of their role or just a target at random? I suggested actual target in this Matrix 6 game, with ideally no claims day 1, but with the miller I think this setup lends itself to that role claiming. It's not the worst idea to not claim, but then the miller is just playing VT with a disadvantage which is suboptimal.
Town
Osie - Myself.
Shadow - Town, Organic process and #44 feels like it comes from town Shadow more than 50% of the time.
Anak - Null, need to see more.
Cantrip - Null, slight scumping on entry, but Shadow seeming townie gives me hope here.
Killjoy - Light Scumlean, I didn't like his sitting back, but I'm not totally sure that it's alignment indicative one way or another.
LnGrrrR - Scumlean, Busywork and bizarreness with the "lying in a townie way." Oh, and I missed #30's question. See below.
Rhand - Light Scumread, #14 and a general je-ne-sais-quoi in regards to focus and attitude.
Scum
LnGrrrR #30 Question:
See above. #14 was more significant for me than the tonal elements but either by themselves wouldn't do it if not for the lack of anything significant from anyone else.
Also, that explanatory sentence concerns me. Even outside of you not having scumpings from him not doing that to me, I'm also not sure why you would say that given that, well, it's not like you two have been super active here, so those games are a while back and it's a bit weird for you to bring it up as town, especially if you think Rhand is town and your vote is just RVS, like you expressed. But if you're also thinking that Rhand is actually scum, I'm not totally sure why you hold that read back.