KJ: You’ve had several verbal gaffes (whatever your alignment) that just really make it difficult to believe it’s not mindset slips. You said if we mislynch that “vigs should just not fire”, you said you expected to die tonight (impossible if you’re town unless scum kill you), you then reacted to that not being the case in a manner that really didn’t make sense “huh”, and then instead of diving specifically into that interaction you took the time to go over every possible role in the game.
It just doesn’t make sense. So if you’re not scum, who do you actually think is scum? Who is pushing you for weak or bandwagon-y reasons?
No I get it, the mistakes speak for themselves. It's just this mood I'm in recently.
It's not mafia relevent, please ignore.
Anyway, I've been theorizing lately that in a game this size scum likely can't split too much in reads, and therefore are both either scumreading me, or are at least semi neutral towards me. Scum can't trust town to lynch me without them. Hence why I was going to say something along the lines of "Osie is also town for limiting options with regards to my lynch" which at that point was a more substancial, mindset relevent reason than the effective toneread I was townreading him before. But then he made that post and it threw me, because he turned his read around in one post for what I feel to be weak reasons.
Do me a favor though @Shadow. Show me the mindset behind my posts that makes them scum and not just mistakes with no relevence to my alignment. I kinda feel like people are scumreading me for actions and not digging too deep into what I might be actually thinking.
LnGrrR I'm not satisfied has a read on me that progressed naturally. I do not recall him saying anything about his scumread on me except in his list. 181 feels like he just thought of those things when he made it and didn't take that into account when he started scumreading me.
Rhand might be town? After reexamining his posts, his progression seems the most natural. Also asking me if I'm drunk kinda says to me that he's trying to figure me out, and was confused at where my head could be at in that context.
Anak's progression feels fine? I also kind of like 183.
You (Shadow) have seemingly no progression when you first mention it. Actually you never give any reasons. I'm assuming you're reason is just "he's been scummy". Is that not wrong?
Cantrip is not actively scumreading me so he's for sure not one of the bandwagony weakreasoners.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
What happened to the No Lynch plan that you seemed to be on board with based on your vote for No Lynch in 145 (following Anak's call to action)? (And yes, I know you've since switched your vote to KJ; question still stands.)
I'm still on board with it, but with a better towncore, I figure a lynch might not be remiss.
I don't feel like your actions match your professed mindset. You were at "solid towncore [Osie/Shadow/Rhand] + probs KJ, gotta figure out Anak/LnG/Cantrip". You then proceeded to vote No Lynch, then towncleared LnG, voted me, reread KJ, towncleared me, voted KJ, then voted Anak. I don't feel like your towncore has changed much (in fact, last I heard, Rhand had dropped down to "townie?" status with me and LnG), but you're still pushing for a lynch rather than No Lynch?
Quote from Osie »
I came back to the thread with a slightly weaker townread on KJ than some of my others, and people questioning KJ's alignment. In particular, LnGrrrR doesn't feel like he's TMI'ing or scumpushing KJ. I then focused in on KJ's ISO and in the process reread your interactions with him and liked some of the thoughts at least on him and on Shadow in your posts, in particular 161 and 172.
I'd just like to mention that I find it odd that the first time you read my 161 and 172 you voted me in your next post. And then, about 8 hours later, you reread and said "Cantrip's 172 and Killjoy's response in 174 are a much better look for Cantrip and a much worse look for Killjoy." I really don't know what to make of this. That's a very small window to find me scummy enough to vote, reread, and pull a 180.
Quote from Osie »
Then KJ did a bunch of busywork (I know that's hypocritical of me, but people can go away if that's what they want to scumread me on), and while I wasn't happy with a lot of your question post, Killjoy's answers were way worse.
Once I started scumreading KJ, then I looked back even more at you and LnGrrrR and saw some reasonable potential for genuine thought processes there, including what I mentioned about Shadow and Killjoy for you, and that LnGrrrR's read on Killjoy doesn't feel manufactured.
Ok, I guess. It still feels like you just felt like town reading LnG, but at least I have some thoughts on record.
I'll respond to y'all after work today. I will say that everyone's gonna look pretty dumb when I eventually flip.
This is such a silly attack. If you are town, you know that people get mislynched, and that’s a bummer, but it’s not because everyone is dumb. If you’re scum, it’s a great way to subtly hint that people should lynch you because of pride.
True on that. That's a fair point, though I imagine the question or answer was somehow not entirely clear between the two of you, since the Thief role is VERY straight-forward as someone who takes a way an item or token.
My sincerest apologies, Osie, as I apparently can't read. Tom pointed out what I missed in his PM to me; the thief works as you're indicating.
Do me a favor though @Shadow. Show me the mindset behind my posts that makes them scum and not just mistakes with no relevence to my alignment. I kinda feel like people are scumreading me for actions and not digging too deep into what I might be actually thinking.
Do you specifically want Shadow to do this, or can I respond?
Quote from KJ »
Rhand might be town? After reexamining his posts, his progression seems the most natural. Also asking me if I'm drunk kinda says to me that he's trying to figure me out, and was confused at where my head could be at in that context.
I don't see this as alignment indicative. Why is it unlikely that scum would ask that of you? (Also, I could see *me* saying something like that to a scumbuddy if said buddy came into the thread posting a little haphazardly like you did.)
Quote from KJ »
Anak's progression feels fine? I also kind of like 183.
What did you like about it?
Quote from KJ »
Cantrip is not actively scumreading me so he's for sure not one of the bandwagony weakreasoners.
I may not be calling for your lynch, but that doesn't mean that I'm not scumreading you. I'm certainly raising an eyebrow at a good majority of your posts so far.
Anyway, I've been theorizing lately that in a game this size scum likely can't split too much in reads, and therefore are both either scumreading me, or are at least semi neutral towards me. Scum can't trust town to lynch me without them. Hence why I was going to say something along the lines of "Osie is also town for limiting options with regards to my lynch" which at that point was a more substancial, mindset relevent reason than the effective toneread I was townreading him before. But then he made that post and it threw me, because he turned his read around in one post for what I feel to be weak reasons.
I've always read the game as I wrote posts, so that argument is pretty silly. But if you want more reason for why you looked scummy...
152: You're talking entirely on semantics and on taking worse interpretations of Cantrip's points. You're also trying to continue to argue a read based on what you say that you think someone is going to do in the future rather than primarily based on what they have done so far.
163: You even accuse Cantrip of semantics over substance but then you continue on this not-quite-arguing the point with statements like "You overestimate my skills" and "I strongly dislike having to come up with strong reads less than 200 posts into the game. I'm not that good at mafia guys." Do you really have SUCH little confidence? Besides, look at the playerbase. I would bet that even if not everyone is willing to admit it, every single one of us has done some amount of "fake it till you make it" in regards to reads and play in mafia as either alignment.
174: This feels pretty loose. You just name 2 possible worlds and then talk about why you don't agree with two others while still holding a scumread of sorts on two people, but they aren't scum together... It's rather shaky.
176: You upheld your read on me here in response to what was pretty much Cantrip coaching you in 175. Not in a "I'm doing this anyways" but just a "meh." You then dropped that entirely and abruptly later on, though.
And then we have after my read flipped. Your response is to read the thread based on who is on your wagon and handwave that me clearly going through your ISO while writing a post is just "weak reasons."
I don't feel like your actions match your professed mindset. You were at "solid towncore [Osie/Shadow/Rhand] + probs KJ, gotta figure out Anak/LnG/Cantrip". You then proceeded to vote No Lynch, then towncleared LnG, voted me, reread KJ, towncleared me, voted KJ, then voted Anak. I don't feel like your towncore has changed much (in fact, last I heard, Rhand had dropped down to "townie?" status with me and LnG), but you're still pushing for a lynch rather than No Lynch?
I was never as sure on Rhand as on Shadow. I'm still not convinced that you or LnGrrrR are town. And? I'd be more worried if I was somehow certain that more than half the players were town on D1 without much if any mechanical relevance yet other than my claim. I've also very openly left no lynch open, just left my vote on the person I'd be most willing to lynch if there was a lynch.
I'd just like to mention that I find it odd that the first time you read my 161 and 172 you voted me in your next post. And then, about 8 hours later, you reread and said "Cantrip's 172 and Killjoy's response in 174 are a much better look for Cantrip and a much worse look for Killjoy." I really don't know what to make of this. That's a very small window to find me scummy enough to vote, reread, and pull a 180.
I don't always read posts in the same frame of mind or to the same level of detail in two or more different readthroughs of a post. Guilty as charged. You got me. I'm a terrible town player for not reading every post thoroughly before deciding on anything. I should just sub out every time I roll town. And then sub out when I roll scum so that it looks more similar to my town game. (This is a joke; I'm not actually upset about this, but I do think it's kinda silly.)
Yesterday was tough. We got up at 5am to get our flight and faces a 2,5 hour delay and then flew for 11 hours.
But we arrived and I’m now on honeymoon
I still think we should no lynch. I need to think about my target toNight though. I feel like the scumteam almost has to be either KJ / Anak or Cantrip / Anak, so maybe Anak is a better target than KJ.
But KJ behaviourally just feels the worst.
@KJ: I started scum reading you when you said “vigs shouldn’t shoot” because it felt like a slip, and then most of the things you’ve said and done pushed me more towards thinking you’re scum, including you Omgusing me for (imo) really groundless reasons. I will read your iso again sometime today if it makes you feel better.
Yesterday was tough. We got up at 5am to get our flight and faces a 2,5 hour delay and then flew for 11 hours.
But we arrived and I’m now on honeymoon
I still think we should no lynch. I need to think about my target toNight though. I feel like the scumteam almost has to be either KJ / Anak or Cantrip / Anak, so maybe Anak is a better target than KJ.
But KJ behaviourally just feels the worst.
Congratulations!
%%%%%
I'm thinking I would go for Anak similarly, not to mention that their average post is actually a little worse mostly for lack of them.
Do me a favor though @Shadow. Show me the mindset behind my posts that makes them scum and not just mistakes with no relevence to my alignment. I kinda feel like people are scumreading me for actions and not digging too deep into what I might be actually thinking.
Do you specifically want Shadow to do this, or can I respond?
I actually really want Shadow to do this. Because I feel like Shadow is possibly faking his scumread. After he responds I suppose is fine if you still feel the need. (BTW @Shadow, if you can't do it before deadline, feel free to take the Night. We're likely no-lynching so no rush. Tomorrow is when all the real discussion happens anyway.)
Quote from KJ »
Rhand might be town? After reexamining his posts, his progression seems the most natural. Also asking me if I'm drunk kinda says to me that he's trying to figure me out, and was confused at where my head could be at in that context.
I don't see this as alignment indicative. Why is it unlikely that scum would ask that of you? (Also, I could see *me* saying something like that to a scumbuddy if said buddy came into the thread posting a little haphazardly like you did.)
Hm. Maybe. That's just how I felt about it.
I also have the benefit of knowing we're not scumbuddies.
Quote from KJ »
Anak's progression feels fine? I also kind of like 183.
What did you like about it?
It felt like a genuine statement.Pure.
Quote from KJ »
Cantrip is not actively scumreading me so he's for sure not one of the bandwagony weakreasoners.
I may not be calling for your lynch, but that doesn't mean that I'm not scumreading you. I'm certainly raising an eyebrow at a good majority of your posts so far.
Hence not actively. I'd assumed you were a little bit, but not to the tune that everyone else seems to be.
Feel free to define your scumread of me so I can decide where you fit on that list though if I've underestimated that.
Anyway, I've been theorizing lately that in a game this size scum likely can't split too much in reads, and therefore are both either scumreading me, or are at least semi neutral towards me. Scum can't trust town to lynch me without them. Hence why I was going to say something along the lines of "Osie is also town for limiting options with regards to my lynch" which at that point was a more substancial, mindset relevent reason than the effective toneread I was townreading him before. But then he made that post and it threw me, because he turned his read around in one post for what I feel to be weak reasons.
I've always read the game as I wrote posts, so that argument is pretty silly. But if you want more reason for why you looked scummy...
152: You're talking entirely on semantics and on taking worse interpretations of Cantrip's points. You're also trying to continue to argue a read based on what you say that you think someone is going to do in the future rather than primarily based on what they have done so far.
163: You even accuse Cantrip of semantics over substance but then you continue on this not-quite-arguing the point with statements like "You overestimate my skills" and "I strongly dislike having to come up with strong reads less than 200 posts into the game. I'm not that good at mafia guys." Do you really have SUCH little confidence? Besides, look at the playerbase. I would bet that even if not everyone is willing to admit it, every single one of us has done some amount of "fake it till you make it" in regards to reads and play in mafia as either alignment.
174: This feels pretty loose. You just name 2 possible worlds and then talk about why you don't agree with two others while still holding a scumread of sorts on two people, but they aren't scum together... It's rather shaky.
176: You upheld your read on me here in response to what was pretty much Cantrip coaching you in 175. Not in a "I'm doing this anyways" but just a "meh." You then dropped that entirely and abruptly later on, though.
And then we have after my read flipped. Your response is to read the thread based on who is on your wagon and handwave that me clearly going through your ISO while writing a post is just "weak reasons."
Osie. I have a hard time believing you're scumreading me for these things, given you've been in games with me before and seen me make really bad, biasy scumreads in those games. One was on you, if you'll recall.
So talk to me in the abstract about what you think my actual scumgame looks like, independent of this game. When you think "This is scum!KJ" what are you looking for?
@KJ: I started scum reading you when you said “vigs shouldn’t shoot” because it felt like a slip, and then most of the things you’ve said and done pushed me more towards thinking you’re scum, including you Omgusing me for (imo) really groundless reasons. I will read your iso again sometime today if it makes you feel better.
IIRC you're usually more vocal about your reasoning. Why have you not been this game?
I don't want you to have to do a full ISO of me, but like you have bullet points on why I'm scum (Vigs shouldn't shoot, I'm gonna die tonight, etc) so I'd like you to answer that question starting at the first one and progressing to the last one. Where's my head at when I make those posts etc.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ: I don’t think it’s the sort of “KJ has Scum motivation to slip because...” I think saying “vigs just won’t shoot” specifically indicates the intention to assume a vig could be either alignment, but shows carelessness about it because of course scum vig isn’t going to play nice, and that more likely comes from scum that knows town has the vig token than town. Follow that with you saying you’re going to die tonight, which only scum need to be afraid of, and like, maybe town!you just didn’t pay attention, but it just seems more likely to be you genuinely knowing that you’d die if you got despy-ed
@Shadow: Osie: town or scum? And then what % of certainty would you assign that read?
why...why are you asking me this.
Town - 100%
I really want Osie to get killed.
Because I've been paranoid since Osie claimed miller that he's scum and I wanted to both get your explicit thoughts and gauge how you responded to the question. But I've liked several of his recent responses, so I should probably pack my paranoia away and accept that Osie's just town.
@KJ: What do you make of Anak's incredulity in 183 that everyone wants a No Lynch?
@KJ: I don’t think it’s the sort of “KJ has Scum motivation to slip because...” I think saying “vigs just won’t shoot” specifically indicates the intention to assume a vig could be either alignment, but shows carelessness about it because of course scum vig isn’t going to play nice, and that more likely comes from scum that knows town has the vig token than town. Follow that with you saying you’re going to die tonight, which only scum need to be afraid of, and like, maybe town!you just didn’t pay attention, but it just seems more likely to be you genuinely knowing that you’d die if you got despy-ed
I agree with all of this. Do you feel like KJ's likely enough scum to lynch him rather than No Lynch?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Cantrip: I didn't interpret that as incredulity to no Lynch, but more incredulity towards people doing so much with a no Lynch in the table. He looks overwhelmed.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
But if it's public info that only scum die to that, then why would I say that in thread?
Because scum you made a mistake?
@Cantrip: I’ve been considering it but I’m also still pretty content with the no lynch and compile everything tomorrow plan.
Scum me had apparently made several mistakes is my point. Which is why I'm asking you to do what I'm doing you. I want you to draw a line from one scum thing to another and tell me where you think my head is at during it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You wanna know a secret KJ? The fact that you’re actually pumping out some effort and really insistant on this is a good look. It’s why I’m still down for a no lynch and want to see where things sit tomorrow.
You wanna know a secret KJ? The fact that you’re actually pumping out some effort and really insistant on this is a good look. It’s why I’m still down for a no lynch and want to see where things sit tomorrow.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You’re missing the point. If you’re scum, you made a mistake. There’s no about of theorizing I can do that can come up with your thought process, because it would be anything sensible, it would be an “oh crap” moment.
Look at scum loves their king that just ended. One of the big things I caught DV on was the slip about scum having “pregame chat”. Nothing was going through his head, he slipped information that he shouldn’t have.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
How’s do you figure? Do you think it’s impossible for you to make several mistakes as scum? How are these things even connected, and why should they indicate your mindset at all? I don’t buy that any of what I’ve cited conglomerates together as indicative of anything, except careless mistakes that more often come from scum because of the content.
I do kind of buy that your insistence that this is somehow indicative is genuine, which does actually more often come from town. But again, it’s not impossible that scum you really is trying here. And I really don’t buy your scum read of me, being as I’ve engaged with you more than anyone else except maybe Cantrip, and you somehow think my scum read of you has been the least justified.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
69 - It seems easier for him to scumread me here, the read has some subtlety, the "doesn't do improv" seems reasonable for Killjoy who doesn't really know my scumgame. A little concern because he townreads me so readily, but I'm not super opposed.
I don't think that going against the no lynch was alignment indicative; too much wine.
115 doesn't feel like a scum mislynch push. A little too genuine in feeling.
The only posts that give me huge pause so far are 127+131; it feels like a potential scum disconnect followed by an attempt to save it.
The flip onto Shadow is a little overwrought, though Killjoy does tend to be a bit that way as either alignment.
Actually, I really don't like 152. His approach to these questions is slimy and disingenuous.
Mechanics confusion and talk about specifically Rhand shooting him is tricky. It could be legit.
Huh. Shoot. I think I'm scumreading him in place of Cantrip now. Cantrip's 172 and Killjoy's response in 174 are a much better look for Cantrip and a much worse look for Killjoy.
Makes me feel significantly better about LnGrrrR too.
Hmm...
Shadow townie
Cantrip townie?
LnGrrrR townie?
Rhand townie?
Anak still not great for a lot of reasons, and 183 is another strike against him for me.
Killjoy scum.
Vote Killjoy (though still down for a no lynch otherwise.)
184 for reference.
Why do you guys keep making me talk about Osie? I don’t think the above post is high quality, but it’s not like...bad. I’m gonna go read it in context and get back to you.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Are you considering his progression from you to Anak? Can we just all agree that Osie is town and force scum to kill him if so?
Also, I kinda think you’re town. The “I’m dying tonight” and subsequent reaction to that is still really bad and I’m not going to just ignore it, but if I was lynching today I’d no longer be solidly lynching you.
To the thread at large: I have no actual solid footing this game at all, and the feelings I do have are just going to be dust in the wind when we have everyone’s claims to analyze tomorrow. But rest assured, I will actually be ready for tomorrow, and I’ll stop this sort of half way meandering that I feel like I’m doing.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Sorry I have done most of nothing today, got wrapped up in mechanics and couldn't really get a bead on anyone after that, weird as KJ was. He is also my Desperado vote, not picking myself lol
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
%%%%%
Anyways...
Vote Anaklusmos
I'm feeling more certain here, despite the fact that Killjoy AtE doesn't really deserve this.
Still up for a no lynch if that's preferred.
It just doesn’t make sense. So if you’re not scum, who do you actually think is scum? Who is pushing you for weak or bandwagon-y reasons?
It's not mafia relevent, please ignore.
Anyway, I've been theorizing lately that in a game this size scum likely can't split too much in reads, and therefore are both either scumreading me, or are at least semi neutral towards me. Scum can't trust town to lynch me without them. Hence why I was going to say something along the lines of "Osie is also town for limiting options with regards to my lynch" which at that point was a more substancial, mindset relevent reason than the effective toneread I was townreading him before. But then he made that post and it threw me, because he turned his read around in one post for what I feel to be weak reasons.
Do me a favor though @Shadow. Show me the mindset behind my posts that makes them scum and not just mistakes with no relevence to my alignment. I kinda feel like people are scumreading me for actions and not digging too deep into what I might be actually thinking.
LnGrrR I'm not satisfied has a read on me that progressed naturally. I do not recall him saying anything about his scumread on me except in his list. 181 feels like he just thought of those things when he made it and didn't take that into account when he started scumreading me.
Rhand might be town? After reexamining his posts, his progression seems the most natural. Also asking me if I'm drunk kinda says to me that he's trying to figure me out, and was confused at where my head could be at in that context.
Anak's progression feels fine? I also kind of like 183.
You (Shadow) have seemingly no progression when you first mention it. Actually you never give any reasons. I'm assuming you're reason is just "he's been scummy". Is that not wrong?
Cantrip is not actively scumreading me so he's for sure not one of the bandwagony weakreasoners.
So in order from best to worst:
Rhand
Anak
LnGrrR
Osie
Shadow.
CantripI'd just like to mention that I find it odd that the first time you read my 161 and 172 you voted me in your next post. And then, about 8 hours later, you reread and said "Cantrip's 172 and Killjoy's response in 174 are a much better look for Cantrip and a much worse look for Killjoy." I really don't know what to make of this. That's a very small window to find me scummy enough to vote, reread, and pull a 180.
Ok, I guess. It still feels like you just felt like town reading LnG, but at least I have some thoughts on record.
/barn
My sincerest apologies, Osie, as I apparently can't read. Tom pointed out what I missed in his PM to me; the thief works as you're indicating.
What are Elli-tells?
Why are you feeling more certain here?
Do you specifically want Shadow to do this, or can I respond?
I don't see this as alignment indicative. Why is it unlikely that scum would ask that of you? (Also, I could see *me* saying something like that to a scumbuddy if said buddy came into the thread posting a little haphazardly like you did.)
What did you like about it?
I may not be calling for your lynch, but that doesn't mean that I'm not scumreading you. I'm certainly raising an eyebrow at a good majority of your posts so far.
I've always read the game as I wrote posts, so that argument is pretty silly. But if you want more reason for why you looked scummy...
152: You're talking entirely on semantics and on taking worse interpretations of Cantrip's points. You're also trying to continue to argue a read based on what you say that you think someone is going to do in the future rather than primarily based on what they have done so far.
163: You even accuse Cantrip of semantics over substance but then you continue on this not-quite-arguing the point with statements like "You overestimate my skills" and "I strongly dislike having to come up with strong reads less than 200 posts into the game. I'm not that good at mafia guys." Do you really have SUCH little confidence? Besides, look at the playerbase. I would bet that even if not everyone is willing to admit it, every single one of us has done some amount of "fake it till you make it" in regards to reads and play in mafia as either alignment.
174: This feels pretty loose. You just name 2 possible worlds and then talk about why you don't agree with two others while still holding a scumread of sorts on two people, but they aren't scum together... It's rather shaky.
176: You upheld your read on me here in response to what was pretty much Cantrip coaching you in 175. Not in a "I'm doing this anyways" but just a "meh." You then dropped that entirely and abruptly later on, though.
And then we have after my read flipped. Your response is to read the thread based on who is on your wagon and handwave that me clearly going through your ISO while writing a post is just "weak reasons."
I was never as sure on Rhand as on Shadow. I'm still not convinced that you or LnGrrrR are town. And? I'd be more worried if I was somehow certain that more than half the players were town on D1 without much if any mechanical relevance yet other than my claim. I've also very openly left no lynch open, just left my vote on the person I'd be most willing to lynch if there was a lynch.
I don't always read posts in the same frame of mind or to the same level of detail in two or more different readthroughs of a post. Guilty as charged. You got me. I'm a terrible town player for not reading every post thoroughly before deciding on anything. I should just sub out every time I roll town. And then sub out when I roll scum so that it looks more similar to my town game. (This is a joke; I'm not actually upset about this, but I do think it's kinda silly.)
LnGrrrR made a lot more sense to me once I reread his posts on page 4 with a more open mind.
Seriously problematic OOG that I was told of recently and absolutely don't want to fall into, so I'm going to actively try to not use them.
Mix of Killjoy's AtE and Anak's posts rubbing me the wrong way.
But we arrived and I’m now on honeymoon
I still think we should no lynch. I need to think about my target toNight though. I feel like the scumteam almost has to be either KJ / Anak or Cantrip / Anak, so maybe Anak is a better target than KJ.
But KJ behaviourally just feels the worst.
Congratulations!
%%%%%
I'm thinking I would go for Anak similarly, not to mention that their average post is actually a little worse mostly for lack of them.
Town - 100%
Lol.
Hm. Maybe. That's just how I felt about it.
I also have the benefit of knowing we're not scumbuddies.
It felt like a genuine statement.Pure.
Hence not actively. I'd assumed you were a little bit, but not to the tune that everyone else seems to be.
Feel free to define your scumread of me so I can decide where you fit on that list though if I've underestimated that. Osie. I have a hard time believing you're scumreading me for these things, given you've been in games with me before and seen me make really bad, biasy scumreads in those games. One was on you, if you'll recall.
So talk to me in the abstract about what you think my actual scumgame looks like, independent of this game. When you think "This is scum!KJ" what are you looking for?
IIRC you're usually more vocal about your reasoning. Why have you not been this game?
I don't want you to have to do a full ISO of me, but like you have bullet points on why I'm scum (Vigs shouldn't shoot, I'm gonna die tonight, etc) so I'd like you to answer that question starting at the first one and progressing to the last one. Where's my head at when I make those posts etc.
@KJ: What do you make of Anak's incredulity in 183 that everyone wants a No Lynch?
I agree with all of this. Do you feel like KJ's likely enough scum to lynch him rather than No Lynch?
@Cantrip: I’ve been considering it but I’m also still pretty content with the no lynch and compile everything tomorrow plan.
What do you make of it?
Cantrip: You seemed to come up with something quick when I asked this. What do you make of Shadow refusing to try?
Look at scum loves their king that just ended. One of the big things I caught DV on was the slip about scum having “pregame chat”. Nothing was going through his head, he slipped information that he shouldn’t have.
I believe when you look at all the things together and my mindset behind them, you'll have a better understanding of my alignment.
I do kind of buy that your insistence that this is somehow indicative is genuine, which does actually more often come from town. But again, it’s not impossible that scum you really is trying here. And I really don’t buy your scum read of me, being as I’ve engaged with you more than anyone else except maybe Cantrip, and you somehow think my scum read of you has been the least justified.
If you don't wanna do it, then don't.
Cantrip: I guess go ahead if you have thoughts. Maybe I'll get lucky and it'll tell me something about you.
Yeah, that’s why I don’t remember his posts, cause there’s nothing there. He’d be my pick for despy shot honestly.
Why do you guys keep making me talk about Osie? I don’t think the above post is high quality, but it’s not like...bad. I’m gonna go read it in context and get back to you.
Also, I kinda think you’re town. The “I’m dying tonight” and subsequent reaction to that is still really bad and I’m not going to just ignore it, but if I was lynching today I’d no longer be solidly lynching you.
Vote No Lynch
Desperado targets:
Osie: Anak
Shadow: Anak
Rhand: Anak
Please add to the list when you’ve chosen yours or if I missed any recent ones.
I'd choose me if they weren't gonna die as a result. Lngrrr good second choice if Anak is the despo.
I'll put Osie on hold for now. Let's see what tomorrow brings
Sorry I have done most of nothing today, got wrapped up in mechanics and couldn't really get a bead on anyone after that, weird as KJ was. He is also my Desperado vote, not picking myself lol
Anak (1): osi
Not voting (2): cantrip, lngrr
No lynch has been lynched
He was
It is now night 1.
I know this is a micro, but im still gonna make it a 48 hour night. Its complicated...
Action submission deadline thursday 8 am PST (36.5 hours from this post)
Day will start approximately 12 hours later at 8 pm PST (48 hours)
DO NOT POST
Shadow has died
He was
He was
IT IS NOW DAY 2
With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch
Shadow dying means Anak is clear.
Lngrrr, Thanks, Osie could be scum.
Osies abrupt turn around on me makes me think he's scum. I don't think Rhand is. Lngrrr/Osie then.
We should choose a claim order. I'll go first unless we have a specific one in mind.