In 43 you say "most of the time, [me claiming Miller] helps the town more than it hurts it, it's just risky." Is there more "help" than narrowing cop targets? Why does that outweigh the possibility of an extra scum kill, even if the percentage of scum having a claim vig is small?
I think this is the only real question for me?
Unless scum think I'm incompetent or an easy mislynch (both of which could be the case, I guess), then I'm the target of a nightkill.
So you claiming miller narrows cop targets and draws the NK to you, with a slight chance of an extra mafia kill if they have the claim vig? Again, why do those two benefits outweigh the possibility of an extra kill, especially since, if you are playing well, you would be less likely to be copped and more likely to be NK'd, anyway?
Also, I really would like to know how serious your 68 was.
I honestly didn't even think about the extra kill when I read through things. Kinda just was like "This makes the most sense" and then was like "Oh hey, Shadow and Rhand talked about this. Oh well, can't be too important. I know how this setup works better than anyone."
@Killjoy:
• Something feels off about your 24. I started out thinking it felt bloodthirsty, but that's not quite it.
• Why did you ask Anak how he felt about Shadow in 82 when Anak had just recently indicated awarding slight town points to Shadow in 76?
• As I already mentioned, it's hard for me to wrap my head around a town player not considering the NK.
• I really don't like your question to Shadow in 120 about his order of LnG and Anak. Your addendum of "they're both kinda the same in terms of activity and content" feels like a logical fallacy...strawman, maybe? I feel like LnG has contributed quite a bit more to the conversation than Anak has, and I definitely have a stronger sense of LnG's presence/opinion. I feel like if you flip scum, there's a good chance your buddy is one of the two. The part of that post when you question Rhand on his reads of me and Shadow feels false, as well. Why did you use the phrase "why are those both true"? (specifically the bolded)?
• In 132, when you say that scum!Shadow has "dead town" to gain from letting Rhand push you...how exactly, when we're not lynching toDay?
Well if you think of the word, let me know. Obviously 24 wasn't bloodthirsty. IDK what the problem with it is.
Was asking for more detail. All he said in 76 was that he was townreading for talking through Osie's claim. Was that all, or was there more to it?
Wait, to clarify: you're saying you think I'm scum that forgot there was an NK? I'm unsure what you're saying here.
What you're describing isn't a strawman. I'm not changing any argument then arguing against that... IDK what the actual term is either though. So you're accusing me of misconstruing the facts about how much content LngrrR has put out vs. Anak. I mean, quantify it how you want, I'm not gonna go count their words. I was referring to in comparison to Osie, Shadow, Rhand and myself. As of this post, LnGrrR has 9 posts and Anak has 6. It's 150 posts into the game and they have approx similar postcounts so I asked what put one in front of the other in terms of alignemnt reads.
We're gonna lynch eventually though. And when we do start lynching people's scumreads he'll push me first. Ergo, dead town. Especially if Rhand maintains his scumread of me.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Cantrip: can I get some scumgames for you? I only remember 9s a crowd, but you were town in that game. I can't remember other games we were in atm off the top.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Osie, eh maybe I was just being sensitive. I just didn't like the "Woah grrr is crazy" feel.
@Rhand, where did you get the impression I don't make strong pushes d1?
@KJ, why do you think that Shadow pushing you make him scum? Your claim that you forgot about the NK is pretty hard to swallow.
@Cantrip, why do you feel a lot less excited for this game rather than secret agent? Real life stuff? Overall I liked your catchup, though I will have to look at specific posts you referenced.
Maybe we should all post a T/S with the desperado target on the bottom.
Town
Osie
Lean town
Shadow
Null
Lngr (Moved down from lean town because of recent posts. I think his T/S will help to sort him out)
Anak (Still no read on him)
Scum
Cantrip (I felt better after first seeing his catch up post, but I have reread it thoroughly and have some issues with it. See below.)
KJ (even though I have big issues with Cantrip, I am more confident in the KJ read and would use my Desperado shot on him)
I cut out the irrelevant parts of Cantrip’s posts and cut it in pieces to keep this readable.
@Shadow:
• Am I wrong in believing that thinking about worst case situations pre-game and bringing them up is well within your scum wheelhouse?
• ...and I apparently didn't read any of your posts after 15? I actually didn't have any questions or concerns with your other posts, which is odd enough that now I'm thinking I need to read your iso. But I've made everyone wait too long already, and I've got other projects to catch up on, so I'll do that next opportunity.
Cantrip says he needs to iso Shadow and clearly thinks he might be scum, but in his T/S at the bottom, he turns up as highest town read, while he calls some other people town:
@Rhand:
• Your point that Osie's unlikely to be scum for the miller claim is a good one, and I feel like you're town for it unless specifically scum with Osie. @LnG:
• I like your train of thought in 52. Doesn't sound like the kind of corner case thinking that would come from scum trying to shade Osie. Unless you're specifically scum with Osie and this is a planned gambit (which I think is unlikely), this puts you at townlean for me.
• Your 83 feels very open and townie.
Also, compare the Shadow read to the Anak read:
@Anak:
• How do I not have any other questions for you? I apparently need to iso you, too.
They are almost identical and yet Shadow becomes the top town read in the T/S while Anak gets dumped right above his top scum read.
Then there’s his stance on Osie:
@Osie:
• Re: your 101, I can't help but tinfoil the possibility that you're on the scum team, there's a claim vig, you know the miller/framer card isn't in play (or one of you is the framer), and your 101 is designed to set up a scenario where the claim vig doesn't shoot N1 to "confirm" you/suggest that there's no claim vig, regular NK occurs, single mislynch D2 + NK OR Claim Vig seals the deal.
He calls it a tinfoil, but Osie does end up on the bottom of his townpile.
I think this could be scum!Cantrip trying to get us to abandon the strong town read of Osie that everyone seems to share.
The T/S for reference:
I honestly didn't even think about the extra kill when I read through things. Kinda just was like "This makes the most sense" and then was like "Oh hey, Shadow and Rhand talked about this. Oh well, can't be too important. I know how this setup works better than anyone."
Was asking for more detail. All he said in 76 was that he was townreading for talking through Osie's claim. Was that all, or was there more to it?
But you specifically asked him for his "impression" of Shadow. I feel like he had just given an impression of Shadow (slight town points due to thoroughly talking through Osie's claim).
Quote from KJ »
Wait, to clarify: you're saying you think I'm scum that forgot there was an NK? I'm unsure what you're saying here.
No, I'm saying that there's a possibility that you tried for a slightly humorous derp clear to help explain some of your game stances.
Quote from KJ »
What you're describing isn't a strawman. I'm not changing any argument then arguing against that... IDK what the actual term is either though. So you're accusing me of misconstruing the facts about how much content LngrrR has put out vs. Anak. I mean, quantify it how you want, I'm not gonna go count their words. I was referring to in comparison to Osie, Shadow, Rhand and myself. As of this post, LnGrrR has 9 posts and Anak has 6. It's 150 posts into the game and they have approx similar postcounts so I asked what put one in front of the other in terms of alignemnt reads.
I wouldn't expect you to count words, but I would expect you to realize that post counts, while suggestive, are not indicative of a player's contributions. If all of LnG's 9 posts are one-liners and Anak's 6 posts are insightful analysis, Anak's put in more work/provided more content. I feel like the opposite is true: I have gotten very little feel from Anak from his posts, while I feel like I have a strong sense of LnG from his posts. I feel like your statement was trying to conflate the two and make them seem like they had made similar contributions, when I don't think that's the case.
And you didn't respond to my question about the use of the phrase "they're both true".
Quote from KJ »
We're gonna lynch eventually though. And when we do start lynching people's scumreads he'll push me first. Ergo, dead town. Especially if Rhand maintains his scumread of me.
I feel like a ton changes after a Day-Night cycle, but I can see your point of view.
@Cantrip, why do you feel a lot less excited for this game rather than secret agent? Real life stuff? Overall I liked your catchup, though I will have to look at specific posts you referenced.
I'm definitely less playful this game, mostly because when I signed up I didn't think the game would fire quite so soon. This last week was a big project week so I had less time than usual, and then the blizzard threw everything out of whack, and I just feel like I'm playing catchup. :/
Hm now I'm wondering if Cantrip and KJ being scum together even makes sense.
Does Cantrip ever bus?
Yes, I sometimes do. I can't point to an instance off the top of my head, but I'm certainly not afraid to.
Rhand, I knew when I made the post last night that my comments on Shadow weren't adequate. But I was tired and whatever. Yes, it's possible Shadow is scum, and yes, my highlighting of his scum wheelhouse was me expressing a healthy suspicion of his skill, but the rest of his posts just felt generally townie. Not standout town, like LnG's 83, but pretty straitlaced. So I feel like he's likely town, except for the slight paranoia that comes from not having much to remark upon his other posts. I would have thought I would have found something else suspicious or something extra townie, and I...just didn't. So I want to iso him and apply a little more scrutiny.
Compared to Anak, who I also didn't have further questions for, but overall I didn't get much of a feeling for at all.
Shadow got townread because he had a lot of posts, most of which left me with a generally good feeling. Anak gets put near the bottom because he had few posts, none of which gave me much of a feeling.
Didn’t want to. RVS votes in a micro are less necessary to get the game going anyway.
Quote from Cantrip »
• Am I wrong in believing that thinking about worst case situations pre-game and bringing them up is well within your scum wheelhouse?
What’s your goal with this question even? You know my answer is going to be the same regardless of my alignment, and it’s going to be “No, of course you’re not wrong, my scum wheelhouse is designed to be the same wheelhouse as my town wheelhouse, if not slightly more robust.”
Quote from Cantrip »
• Per your suggested plan in 15, what's to differentiate between "despy targeted scum and was the NK target" and "despy targeted scum and the NK was successfully doc'd"?
I think you’re trying to ask a different question; if the despy hits scum and also gets NK’d, then both are dead, whereas if despy his scum and the NK gets doc’d, then only the scum would be dead. If you’re asking “what differentiates between the despy hitting town, and the despy hitting scum, but the scum getting doc’d and the despy getting killed?” Then on daystart nothing, but when the doctor claims and also says they doc’d the person that the despy targeted, it becomes clear.
@Rhand: I don’t think cantrip’s different placement of me/Anak is actually that bad, I can see the mindset that gets him there. Think his catchup doesn’t take him out of the woods yet though.
I’ll come back a little later with an updated reads list, and a declared despy target. (Kinda think I might say Cantrip to be spicy since the point of this is moot if we all say KJ )
LnGrrR: Check the work. I had decided that if we no lynch there would be no dead people with which to analyze based on their alignment. You can believe me or not. That's what happened.
Was asking for more detail. All he said in 76 was that he was townreading for talking through Osie's claim. Was that all, or was there more to it?
But you specifically asked him for his "impression" of Shadow. I feel like he had just given an impression of Shadow (slight town points due to thoroughly talking through Osie's claim).
So this is about semantics, not substance? Come on Cantrip. You're better than that.
Quote from KJ »
Wait, to clarify: you're saying you think I'm scum that forgot there was an NK? I'm unsure what you're saying here.
No, I'm saying that there's a possibility that you tried for a slightly humorous derp clear to help explain some of your game stances.
You overestimate my skills, but ok.
Quote from KJ »
What you're describing isn't a strawman. I'm not changing any argument then arguing against that... IDK what the actual term is either though. So you're accusing me of misconstruing the facts about how much content LngrrR has put out vs. Anak. I mean, quantify it how you want, I'm not gonna go count their words. I was referring to in comparison to Osie, Shadow, Rhand and myself. As of this post, LnGrrR has 9 posts and Anak has 6. It's 150 posts into the game and they have approx similar postcounts so I asked what put one in front of the other in terms of alignemnt reads.
I wouldn't expect you to count words, but I would expect you to realize that post counts, while suggestive, are not indicative of a player's contributions. If all of LnG's 9 posts are one-liners and Anak's 6 posts are insightful analysis, Anak's put in more work/provided more content. I feel like the opposite is true: I have gotten very little feel from Anak from his posts, while I feel like I have a strong sense of LnG from his posts. I feel like your statement was trying to conflate the two and make them seem like they had made similar contributions, when I don't think that's the case.
And you didn't respond to my question about the use of the phrase "they're both true".
Well, I wanted more. I'm not sure what you're on me for. I wanted more than he had said. I had not gotten a good impression of either.
And with regards to the bolded: Rhand said that you didn't look good and shadow was probably town regardless of my alignemnt. I asked why he believed both those statements to be true. And why are they both true regardless of my alignemnt.
Are you trying to say I know both those things to be true? Is that where you're oging with this?
Quote from KJ »
We're gonna lynch eventually though. And when we do start lynching people's scumreads he'll push me first. Ergo, dead town. Especially if Rhand maintains his scumread of me.
I feel like a ton changes after a Day-Night cycle, but I can see your point of view.
You think people will just realize I'm town overnight?
Phantom Tollbooth, Team 2 (Giant Robot), Arkham Horror, Off the Grid IV.
Thanks.
Since I'm apperently going to die tonight regardless, I'm gonna say some stuff.
I have a bad feeling about Shadow still, but nothing to show. I dislike how Cantrip is attempting to handle me. It feels like he's scumreading me for semantics instead of substance. Does Shadow instabus his buddy though? I want to say no?
If Cantrip is scum it's most likely with Anak/LnGrrR/Rhand in order.
If Shadow is, Rhand becomes slightly more likely.
I strongly dislike having to come up with strong reads less than 200 posts into the game. I'm not that good at mafia guys.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
• Am I wrong in believing that thinking about worst case situations pre-game and bringing them up is well within your scum wheelhouse?
What’s your goal with this question even? You know my answer is going to be the same regardless of my alignment, and it’s going to be “No, of course you’re not wrong, my scum wheelhouse is designed to be the same wheelhouse as my town wheelhouse, if not slightly more robust.”
I started off last night with as much of a blank slate as I could, which included suspicion on everyone. When I wrote that question, I wanted to make it clear that you problem solving and deep thinking wasn't a free pass. By the end of my read, you felt pretty likely town. Had I more time/been less tired, I likely would have done more previewing and editing and removed that question entirely.
Quote from shadow »
Quote from Cantrip »
• Per your suggested plan in 15, what's to differentiate between "despy targeted scum and was the NK target" and "despy targeted scum and the NK was successfully doc'd"?
I think you’re trying to ask a different question; if the despy hits scum and also gets NK’d, then both are dead, whereas if despy his scum and the NK gets doc’d, then only the scum would be dead. If you’re asking “what differentiates between the despy hitting town, and the despy hitting scum, but the scum getting doc’d and the despy getting killed?” Then on daystart nothing, but when the doctor claims and also says they doc’d the person that the despy targeted, it becomes clear.
Now that I look at that...I'm not sure exactly what I was asking. It made sense to me at the time. o.O
Was asking for more detail. All he said in 76 was that he was townreading for talking through Osie's claim. Was that all, or was there more to it?
But you specifically asked him for his "impression" of Shadow. I feel like he had just given an impression of Shadow (slight town points due to thoroughly talking through Osie's claim).
So this is about semantics, not substance? Come on Cantrip. You're better than that.
Actually, I'm not. Semantic/editing slips are one of the things I frequently get stuck on and read more into than I ought to. Iirc, stemming from an early game where I caught someone on one and decided they were more reliable than they were. But no, it's not about semantics. Anak's reads up to that point were all within 76 and consisted of indicating believing Osie, finding Rhand scummy for being eager to get to Night, and slight town points to you (for asking people to post so you could get reads) and Shadow (for his follow-up after Osie's claim). He hadn't gone into detail on anyone and hadn't even given a stance on every player in the game (nothing on me or LnG). Your question didn't feel like a follow-up/"give me more" question. It felt like you were saying, "ok, but what about Shadow?"
Quote from KJ »
Quote from KJ »
What you're describing isn't a strawman. I'm not changing any argument then arguing against that... IDK what the actual term is either though. So you're accusing me of misconstruing the facts about how much content LngrrR has put out vs. Anak. I mean, quantify it how you want, I'm not gonna go count their words. I was referring to in comparison to Osie, Shadow, Rhand and myself. As of this post, LnGrrR has 9 posts and Anak has 6. It's 150 posts into the game and they have approx similar postcounts so I asked what put one in front of the other in terms of alignemnt reads.
I wouldn't expect you to count words, but I would expect you to realize that post counts, while suggestive, are not indicative of a player's contributions. If all of LnG's 9 posts are one-liners and Anak's 6 posts are insightful analysis, Anak's put in more work/provided more content. I feel like the opposite is true: I have gotten very little feel from Anak from his posts, while I feel like I have a strong sense of LnG from his posts. I feel like your statement was trying to conflate the two and make them seem like they had made similar contributions, when I don't think that's the case.
And you didn't respond to my question about the use of the phrase "they're both true".
Well, I wanted more. I'm not sure what you're on me for. I wanted more than he had said. I had not gotten a good impression of either.
Ok. I was just surprised, as I had a strong sense of one and not the other, so you trying to put them on equal ??? footing felt off.
Quote from KJ »
And with regards to the bolded: Rhand said that you didn't look good and shadow was probably town regardless of my alignemnt. I asked why he believed both those statements to be true. And why are they both true regardless of my alignemnt.
Are you trying to say I know both those things to be true? Is that where you're oging with this?
Your word choice felt odd. *shrug*
Quote from KJ »
Quote from KJ »
We're gonna lynch eventually though. And when we do start lynching people's scumreads he'll push me first. Ergo, dead town. Especially if Rhand maintains his scumread of me.
I feel like a ton changes after a Day-Night cycle, but I can see your point of view.
You think people will just realize I'm town overnight?
No, I think people will take the information they learn N1 and reassess, which may make absolutely no difference in how you're viewed...or it may make all the difference.
Quote from KJ »
If Cantrip is scum it's most likely with Anak/LnGrrR/Rhand in order.
If Shadow is, Rhand becomes slightly more likely.
Why?
I don't know what to make of KJ's most recent derp moment. It's the latest in a long list of derps that are hard to believe. How're those mechanics coming, KJ?
Gonna use Osie's list since it tells what roles do. Violet is my comments
Midnight Desperado - As a night action, may try to kill a player. That player's alignment is checked. If that player is town, you die instead.
I had forgotten what this did. This sucks actually because my choices right now are either get magically townier and convince them not to shoot me or be the reasons someone much townier than me is dead.
Anyway, my strat for this would obviously be target the most objectively scummy player.
Claim Vigilante - As a night action, you may try to kill a player if you can correctly state that player's role.
So, in dealing with this, there's two things that come into my mind: either no one claim at all or everyone claim like 4 things that they could be. Might make solving easier if we do that, but it's risky if scum have a 25% lucky guess. No one claiming is safer, so I'd be fine with that.
AC - As a night action, you may target a player. You learn that player's alignment.
IDK what to do here. There could be a godfather and/or a framer which lessens the value of this token. Either aim for someone you suspect is scum and wait till everyone claims targets and hope your result is accurate, or Hail Mary at someone in the nullish pile (LnGrr, Anak. Cantrip?) and see what that does?
UPDATE: Osie claimed Miller so there can't be a Framer. Aiming at scummy town isn't a bad idea then.
Strongman - You may make the factional kill unpreventable.
Nothing really to say here. Only useful if a kill gets around a Doc protect so then we know there's no alignment cop.
Miller - You will show up as Scum to alignment checks.
I think Osie handled this fine. I would have done this as well.
Framer - As a night action, target player shows as Scum to alignment checks.
Osie's claim means this isn't in the game
Bodyguard - As a night action, you may target a player. That player is protected from kills tonight. If you prevent a kill this way, you die.
My strat here is the obvious one: protect the likeliest nightkill.
Godfather - You will show up as Town to alignment checks.
Make 'em an offer they can't refuse. lol
Nothing really to say here.
Motivator - As a night action, you may target a player. That player may use any one of their token(s) tonight, whether or not they have used them so far.
Aiming for a protective role would be most helpful here. If they don't know who that is, then I'd say don't use because if they hit mafia then that's much worse than doing nothing.
Roleblocker - As a night action, you may target a player. That player's actions are prevented.
Obvi if someone is blocked, claim that immediately.
Doctor - As a night action, you may target a player. That player is protected from kills tonight.
Same as Bodyguard, except maybe ask Tom: "If I protect the bodyguard does it stop him from dying?"Might get an extra protect out of the deal that way.
Thief - As a night action, you may target a player. You gain an item from that player. You do not gain any extra shots of any token whether or not it has been used.
Thief is really incompetent. All that they can steal is bread. It's a pointless role.
Watcher - As a night action, you may target a player. You learn who targeted that player this night.
Aim for the nightkill. Maybe see the nightkill etc.
Baker - As a night action, you may target a player. That player receives a loaf of bread. It is an item with no use.
Aim away from where the watcher would hit. Might confuse them.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Cantrip: I feel like you and Shadow PROBABLY aren't scum together because he's pushing the me/you scumteam hardish and I don't think he's gonna turbobus you for no reason.
You could be scum with either Anak or LnGrrR. Maybe Rhand, but I'm not scumreading him as much as I was independent of Shadow. I have a gut Shadow read that I'm stuck on. And I don't really like Rhand clearing Shadow for his plan. It's an easy clear, and scum could come up with plans.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
UPDATE: Osie claimed Miller so there can't be a Framer. Aiming at scummy town isn't a bad idea then. [/color]
Is the certainty I hear here one of those things that I'm reading too much into?
@KJ: That sounds like you're completely ruling out any possibility that Osie is lying (i.e. Osie's the Framer, or the Miller/Framer token is the unused one). Am I reading that correctly, and, if so, why are you doing so?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Rhand,
TOWN
Me - Duh
Shadow - I think his response to Osie's claim was towny. If he was sccum, I think he jumps on Osie for claiming right after he said not to.
Osie - Miller claim which for now is fine treat as towny, and pretty talkative. Scum likely just accepts my townread without challenging? *shrug*
Cantrip - Feels like town Cantrip from Secret Agent, if a bit calmer. Not familiar with Cantrip's scum game. @Cantrip, do you play differently as scum if your opinion?
Anak - Pretty null. Need to see more, and w I'll move down if there isn't more.
Rhand - Not sure why he harped on my post after I explained it. Feels like a reason to push me after widely townread Osie said Rhand and I were his scumreads. I could be OMGUS'ing, but scum lean so far.
KJ - Hasn't done much apart from call out Cantrip's read on him and not pay attention to the game in whole. I don't see solving.
Cantrip - Feels like town Cantrip from Secret Agent, if a bit calmer. Not familiar with Cantrip's scum game. @Cantrip, do you play differently as scum if your opinion?
Cantrip's scum game is similar to his town game. (It's totally his fault.)
I'm actually okay with this at this point since I think I've narrowed it down to Cantrip + Anak with a possible side of WTFOMGBBQ:
Vote Cantripmancer
My despy target would be Cantrip if he's not lynched or Anak otherwise.
KJ - Hasn't done much apart from call out Cantrip's read on him and not pay attention to the game in whole. I don't see solving.
Seriously, though? I don't think you're giving him enough credit here.
Eh, just did a quick reread. You're right he is doing stuff, but it didnt really start until Page 3.
Page 3 he gets into why he thinks Rhand is scummy, then...post 120 he implies Shadow is scummy, but I don't see that anywhere else. It kinda pops up out of nowhere. Then he reinforces it 127. Then, just to make sure, he re-reinforces it 133.
Then more recently, just derping all over the place.
Seemingly not caring about the mechanics feels weird for KJ, who I think is a good player and I would expect to pay more attention. And the sudden scum read on shadow throws me more.
One thing I picked up: highly doubt that Rhand and KJ are aligned. I could see KJ'S separation being bussy, but Rhand's responses don't give me that vibe.
I had a very busy day today and fly to Mexico tomorrow. I won’t disappear completely, but my activity level will drop.
@Osie: Is KJ town because of your Cantrip read or are there other reasons?
@Lngr: I guess we have a language issue. You never really answered my question about outing that gambit. That’s why I kept rephrasing it.
@Cantrip KJ is a but scummy, the I'm dying tonight comment struck me a bit weird. Lng has posted some decent questions which I like. Bit of a townlean currently.
The thing with T/S lists and such this early is that there is very little to go off of in terms of posts and points of reference. People doing that too early are trying to get towncred for simply stating ratings. It's busy work, it doesn't help much, doesn't really tie you to anyone, it's a good scum tactic.
Like we are not even 200 posts into this game and people are iso'ing and such and everyone wants a no lynch! This means nobody has to do anything really meaningful in terms of indicating alignment, and yet people keep posting lists and everything.
@Cantrip how confident are you in those reads? You're either amazing at parsing out scum from rereads or lying, and hoping that wall gives your some tasty towncred. Without any real votes or wagons our behavioual analysis is suspect at best
69 - It seems easier for him to scumread me here, the read has some subtlety, the "doesn't do improv" seems reasonable for Killjoy who doesn't really know my scumgame. A little concern because he townreads me so readily, but I'm not super opposed.
I don't think that going against the no lynch was alignment indicative; too much wine.
115 doesn't feel like a scum mislynch push. A little too genuine in feeling.
The only posts that give me huge pause so far are 127+131; it feels like a potential scum disconnect followed by an attempt to save it.
The flip onto Shadow is a little overwrought, though Killjoy does tend to be a bit that way as either alignment.
Actually, I really don't like 152. His approach to these questions is slimy and disingenuous.
Mechanics confusion and talk about specifically Rhand shooting him is tricky. It could be legit.
Huh. Shoot. I think I'm scumreading him in place of Cantrip now. Cantrip's 172 and Killjoy's response in 174 are a much better look for Cantrip and a much worse look for Killjoy.
Makes me feel significantly better about LnGrrrR too.
Hmm...
Shadow townie
Cantrip townie?
LnGrrrR townie?
Rhand townie?
Anak still not great for a lot of reasons, and 183 is another strike against him for me.
Killjoy scum.
Vote Killjoy (though still down for a no lynch otherwise.)
I was literally about to say that Osie was really town for staying off my wagon. I feel like scum in this game need to stick together die to small game size.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
69 - It seems easier for him to scumread me here, the read has some subtlety, the "doesn't do improv" seems reasonable for Killjoy who doesn't really know my scumgame. A little concern because he townreads me so readily, but I'm not super opposed.
I don't think that going against the no lynch was alignment indicative; too much wine.
115 doesn't feel like a scum mislynch push. A little too genuine in feeling.
The only posts that give me huge pause so far are 127+131; it feels like a potential scum disconnect followed by an attempt to save it.
The flip onto Shadow is a little overwrought, though Killjoy does tend to be a bit that way as either alignment.
Actually, I really don't like 152. His approach to these questions is slimy and disingenuous.
Mechanics confusion and talk about specifically Rhand shooting him is tricky. It could be legit.
Huh. Shoot. I think I'm scumreading him in place of Cantrip now. Cantrip's 172 and Killjoy's response in 174 are a much better look for Cantrip and a much worse look for Killjoy.
Makes me feel significantly better about LnGrrrR too.
Hmm...
Shadow townie
Cantrip townie?
LnGrrrR townie?
Rhand townie?
Anak still not great for a lot of reasons, and 183 is another strike against him for me.
Killjoy scum.
Vote Killjoy (though still down for a no lynch otherwise.)
Actually. I think this might be scum Osie. This feels more like he knows he can get the Lynch than him actively scumreading me.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Actually some more: KJ are you normally this prone to Omgus? Your only townread was Osie, and then he voted you and you almost instantly flipped to “no he must be scum”. What about his claim? What about your other scum reads? Do you have a behavioral town read on anyone?
Cantrip - Feels like town Cantrip from Secret Agent, if a bit calmer. Not familiar with Cantrip's scum game. @Cantrip, do you play differently as scum if your opinion?
A year ago I felt very solidly like my town and scum game were indistinguishable because of a few scum games where I got townread all over the place (leading to the quote that Osie's referencing, where I said "it's not my fault that my scumgame is indistinguishable from my town game (it's totally my fault)"). Then I was scum in a game with Tom (Team 2, I think) and he dismantled that perception pretty handily by calling out what he said was my "used car salesman" projection. I think I was doing better in Phantom Tollbooth, but then I got tracked performing the NK and that was that. So...tl;dr: my scumgame is pretty much to play as exactly as my towngame as possible. That probably doesn't help your perception of me at all.
@Cantrip KJ is a but scummy, the I'm dying tonight comment struck me a bit weird. Lng has posted some decent questions which I like. Bit of a townlean currently.
Um...I asked you to weigh in on ME and LnG, not KJ and LnG. Where do you stand on me? Town or scum? And can you point me to some of the questions you liked from LnG?
Quote from Anak »
The thing with T/S lists and such this early is that there is very little to go off of in terms of posts and points of reference. People doing that too early are trying to get towncred for simply stating ratings. It's busy work, it doesn't help much, doesn't really tie you to anyone, it's a good scum tactic.
What do you think it says that many people (more than two) are doing it this game?
Quote from Anak »
Like we are not even 200 posts into this game and people are iso'ing and such and everyone wants a no lynch! This means nobody has to do anything really meaningful in terms of indicating alignment, and yet people keep posting lists and everything.
...the desire for a No Lynch stems from the potential for scum to win N1 if we mislynch/Despy hits town/Claim Vig exists. That's not behavioral,it's a process of logic.
Quote from Anak »
@Cantrip how confident are you in those reads? You're either amazing at parsing out scum from rereads or lying, and hoping that wall gives your some tasty towncred. Without any real votes or wagons our behavioual analysis is suspect at best
Um...what? Are you talking about my 147? I didn't feel particularly confident in any of it; why do you feel like I was being confident? I'm...really confused by your comment. And absence of votes/wagons doesn't mean that we can't behaviorally analyze the game. For example, I feel like Osie has a distinct lack of progression on his LnG read (see below).
I'm actually okay with this at this point since I think I've narrowed it down to Cantrip + Anak with a possible side of WTFOMGBBQ:
Vote Cantripmancer
My despy target would be Cantrip if he's not lynched or Anak otherwise.
What happened to the No Lynch plan that you seemed to be on board with based on your vote for No Lynch in 145 (following Anak's call to action)? (And yes, I know you've since switched your vote to KJ; question still stands.)
Also, what has changed for you on LnG since 102 where you had LnG as your main suspect? In 122 you put me, LnG, and Anak in a group and said if you could remove one of the three, you'd be down for a lynch. And nothing about LnG until 179, where you make the response to LnG about my scumgame and then say you think you've narrowed it down to me+Anak. And then in 184 you say that your review and position reversal on KJ "makes [you] feel better about LnGrrrR too", but nothing in what you discussed about KJ had any bearing on LnG, and you don't say what changed your mind. Can you elaborate, please?
Oh, and Tom got back to me and said that Osie's explanations in 36 look accurate (but didn't weigh in on Osie's observation in 107). Thief steals a token, but the number of tokens for the player he steals from doesn't change.
He also confirmed that the Despy dies if he targets town or Godfather, and kills scum, miller, or anyone framed.
What happened to the No Lynch plan that you seemed to be on board with based on your vote for No Lynch in 145 (following Anak's call to action)? (And yes, I know you've since switched your vote to KJ; question still stands.)
I'm still on board with it, but with a better towncore, I figure a lynch might not be remiss.
Also, what has changed for you on LnG since 102 where you had LnG as your main suspect? In 122 you put me, LnG, and Anak in a group and said if you could remove one of the three, you'd be down for a lynch. And nothing about LnG until 179, where you make the response to LnG about my scumgame and then say you think you've narrowed it down to me+Anak. And then in 184 you say that your review and position reversal on KJ "makes [you] feel better about LnGrrrR too", but nothing in what you discussed about KJ had any bearing on LnG, and you don't say what changed your mind. Can you elaborate, please?
I'm going to kinda collapse this into one explanation.
I came back to the thread with a slightly weaker townread on KJ than some of my others, and people questioning KJ's alignment. In particular, LnGrrrR doesn't feel like he's TMI'ing or scumpushing KJ. I then focused in on KJ's ISO and in the process reread your interactions with him and liked some of the thoughts at least on him and on Shadow in your posts, in particular 161 and 172.
Then KJ did a bunch of busywork (I know that's hypocritical of me, but people can go away if that's what they want to scumread me on), and while I wasn't happy with a lot of your question post, Killjoy's answers were way worse.
Once I started scumreading KJ, then I looked back even more at you and LnGrrrR and saw some reasonable potential for genuine thought processes there, including what I mentioned about Shadow and Killjoy for you, and that LnGrrrR's read on Killjoy doesn't feel manufactured.
Oh, and Tom got back to me and said that Osie's explanations in 36 look accurate (but didn't weigh in on Osie's observation in 107). Thief steals a token, but the number of tokens for the player he steals from doesn't change.
He also confirmed that the Despy dies if he targets town or Godfather, and kills scum, miller, or anyone framed.
As the number one authority on mechanics in this setup, if the thief steals an item from someone, the number of items that player has will go down.
Also, I tend to default to the thief stealing the bread before the token to maximize interaction between roles.
Oh, and Tom got back to me and said that Osie's explanations in 36 look accurate (but didn't weigh in on Osie's observation in 107). Thief steals a token, but the number of tokens for the player he steals from doesn't change.
He also confirmed that the Despy dies if he targets town or Godfather, and kills scum, miller, or anyone framed.
As the number one authority on mechanics in this setup, if the thief steals an item from someone, the number of items that player has will go down.
Also, I tend to default to the thief stealing the bread before the token to maximize interaction between roles.
... Since *Tom's the final authority in his *own* game, I'm going to defer to him. 😆 He told me explicitly that the number of tokens doesn't change. Ask him yourself.
I'll respond to your other post when I have more time.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'll respond to y'all after work today. I will say that everyone's gonna look pretty dumb when I eventually flip.
This is such a silly attack. If you are town, you know that people get mislynched, and that’s a bummer, but it’s not because everyone is dumb. If you’re scum, it’s a great way to subtly hint that people should lynch you because of pride.
Oh, and Tom got back to me and said that Osie's explanations in 36 look accurate (but didn't weigh in on Osie's observation in 107). Thief steals a token, but the number of tokens for the player he steals from doesn't change.
He also confirmed that the Despy dies if he targets town or Godfather, and kills scum, miller, or anyone framed.
As the number one authority on mechanics in this setup, if the thief steals an item from someone, the number of items that player has will go down.
Also, I tend to default to the thief stealing the bread before the token to maximize interaction between roles.
... Since *Tom's the final authority in his *own* game, I'm going to defer to him. 😆 He told me explicitly that the number of tokens doesn't change. Ask him yourself.
I'll respond to your other post when I have more time.
True on that. That's a fair point, though I imagine the question or answer was somehow not entirely clear between the two of you, since the Thief role is VERY straight-forward as someone who takes a way an item or token.
I'll respond to y'all after work today. I will say that everyone's gonna look pretty dumb when I eventually flip.
This is such a silly attack. If you are town, you know that people get mislynched, and that’s a bummer, but it’s not because everyone is dumb. If you’re scum, it’s a great way to subtly hint that people should lynch you because of pride.
I know people aren't dumb. I don't think people are. I'm just annoyed.
Every now and then I play a game and get scum read for everything I do. I don't understand it.
And it's not getting scum read in and of itself that's about, it's the thought that because of that, I feel like I'm being told "You're playing the game wrong".
I don't think people will really understand this because this doesn't REALLY happen to other people, I don't think.
It's not like it feels like people say "this is scum disguised as town" which would make sense coming from others but feels more like "this is just scum".
Sorry. Rant over. Annoyed. Will be available after work for stuff.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'll respond to y'all after work today. I will say that everyone's gonna look pretty dumb when I eventually flip.
This is such a silly attack. If you are town, you know that people get mislynched, and that’s a bummer, but it’s not because everyone is dumb. If you’re scum, it’s a great way to subtly hint that people should lynch you because of pride.
I know people aren't dumb. I don't think people are. I'm just annoyed.
Every now and then I play a game and get scum read for everything I do. I don't understand it.
And it's not getting scum read in and of itself that's about, it's the thought that because of that, I feel like I'm being told "You're playing the game wrong".
I don't think people will really understand this because this doesn't REALLY happen to other people, I don't think.
It's not like it feels like people say "this is scum disguised as town" which would make sense coming from others but feels more like "this is just scum".
Sorry. Rant over. Annoyed. Will be available after work for stuff.
I know this feeling all too well... I kinda embraced it in a sense (see the quotes in my signature).
I talked through specific situations with Tom and he confirmed that he's treating the roles the same way as I would do so with THREE small exceptions noted below in situations 3 and 4. To paraphrase:
Alice, Bob, Carol, Dan, Eve, Frank, and Greta are playing Token Mafia. Alice and Bob are the Mafia members.
Situation 1:
N1:
- Carol has the Watcher token and attempts to watch Dan.
- Alice has the Doctor/Thief token and steals the Watcher token from Carol.
- Bob has the Motivator/Roleblocker token and attempts to roleblock Carol.
N2:
- Bob watches Dan.
Carol's action is prevented by the Thief stealing her token, as the Thief has the first priority. The Roleblocker doesn't block anything. Since the Watcher token was never used up, the scum are now able to use that token.
Situation 2:
N1:
- Carol has the Motivator/Roleblocker token and attempts to motivate Dan.
- Alice has the Thief token and steals the Motivator/RB token from Carol.
N2:
- Bob uses the Motivator/Roleblocker token to roleblock Dan.
Since the Motivator/Roleblocker token was never used up, the scum are now able to use that token. Since the side of the token that a player uses is dependent on their alignment, Bob would use the Motivator/Roleblocker token as a Roleblocker instead of as a Motivator.
Situation 3:
N1:
- Carol has the Watcher token and watches Dan.
N2:
- Alice has the Doctor/Thief token and steals the used Watcher token from Carol.
N3:
- Eve has the Motivator/Roleblocker token and motivates Alice.
- Alice watches Dan.
The Motivator circumvents the Watcher token being used up and allows Alice to use an extra one TOKEN action to which she has access. She can't kill two people with the factional kill, but she could watch someone. In fact, on N3, she could take three actions, counting the other, potentially unused, Scum token.
So N3 could be:
N3:
Eve has the Motivator/Roleblocker token and motivates Alice.
Alice watches Dan.
Alice uses the factional kill on Dan.
Alice uses the Claim Vig on Carol, naming Watcher, the original token in Carol's Role PM.
I disagreed with Tom's approach here in one respect; I would have it so the Claim Vig names Vanilla, but oh well.
Situation 4:
N1:
- Carol has the Watcher token and watches Dan.
- Eve has the Baker token and gives Carol a bread.
N2:
- Alice has the Thief token and steals the Watcher token from Carol.
Two differences here:
Tom has the Thief token only steal tokens. I specifically have it so the Thief would steal bread first.
I call it a loaf of bread. Tom just calls it a bread.
I honestly didn't even think about the extra kill when I read through things. Kinda just was like "This makes the most sense" and then was like "Oh hey, Shadow and Rhand talked about this. Oh well, can't be too important. I know how this setup works better than anyone."
As for 68, drawing a blood orange from a stoner.
Well if you think of the word, let me know. Obviously 24 wasn't bloodthirsty. IDK what the problem with it is.
Was asking for more detail. All he said in 76 was that he was townreading for talking through Osie's claim. Was that all, or was there more to it?
Wait, to clarify: you're saying you think I'm scum that forgot there was an NK? I'm unsure what you're saying here.
What you're describing isn't a strawman. I'm not changing any argument then arguing against that... IDK what the actual term is either though. So you're accusing me of misconstruing the facts about how much content LngrrR has put out vs. Anak. I mean, quantify it how you want, I'm not gonna go count their words. I was referring to in comparison to Osie, Shadow, Rhand and myself. As of this post, LnGrrR has 9 posts and Anak has 6. It's 150 posts into the game and they have approx similar postcounts so I asked what put one in front of the other in terms of alignemnt reads.
We're gonna lynch eventually though. And when we do start lynching people's scumreads he'll push me first. Ergo, dead town. Especially if Rhand maintains his scumread of me.
Brb need to check something.
Cantrip: can I get some scumgames for you? I only remember 9s a crowd, but you were town in that game. I can't remember other games we were in atm off the top.
Work is dumb.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@Rhand, where did you get the impression I don't make strong pushes d1?
@KJ, why do you think that Shadow pushing you make him scum? Your claim that you forgot about the NK is pretty hard to swallow.
@Cantrip, why do you feel a lot less excited for this game rather than secret agent? Real life stuff? Overall I liked your catchup, though I will have to look at specific posts you referenced.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Why are you arguing a townread on you?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Town
Osie
Lean town
Shadow
Null
Lngr (Moved down from lean town because of recent posts. I think his T/S will help to sort him out)
Anak (Still no read on him)
Scum
Cantrip (I felt better after first seeing his catch up post, but I have reread it thoroughly and have some issues with it. See below.)
KJ (even though I have big issues with Cantrip, I am more confident in the KJ read and would use my Desperado shot on him)
I cut out the irrelevant parts of Cantrip’s posts and cut it in pieces to keep this readable.
Cantrip says he needs to iso Shadow and clearly thinks he might be scum, but in his T/S at the bottom, he turns up as highest town read, while he calls some other people town:
Also, compare the Shadow read to the Anak read:
They are almost identical and yet Shadow becomes the top town read in the T/S while Anak gets dumped right above his top scum read.
Then there’s his stance on Osie:
He calls it a tinfoil, but Osie does end up on the bottom of his townpile.
I think this could be scum!Cantrip trying to get us to abandon the strong town read of Osie that everyone seems to share.
The T/S for reference:
Does Cantrip ever bus?
But you specifically asked him for his "impression" of Shadow. I feel like he had just given an impression of Shadow (slight town points due to thoroughly talking through Osie's claim).
No, I'm saying that there's a possibility that you tried for a slightly humorous derp clear to help explain some of your game stances.
I wouldn't expect you to count words, but I would expect you to realize that post counts, while suggestive, are not indicative of a player's contributions. If all of LnG's 9 posts are one-liners and Anak's 6 posts are insightful analysis, Anak's put in more work/provided more content. I feel like the opposite is true: I have gotten very little feel from Anak from his posts, while I feel like I have a strong sense of LnG from his posts. I feel like your statement was trying to conflate the two and make them seem like they had made similar contributions, when I don't think that's the case.
And you didn't respond to my question about the use of the phrase "they're both true".
I feel like a ton changes after a Day-Night cycle, but I can see your point of view.
Phantom Tollbooth, Team 2 (Giant Robot), Arkham Horror, Off the Grid IV.
I'm definitely less playful this game, mostly because when I signed up I didn't think the game would fire quite so soon. This last week was a big project week so I had less time than usual, and then the blizzard threw everything out of whack, and I just feel like I'm playing catchup. :/
Yes, I sometimes do. I can't point to an instance off the top of my head, but I'm certainly not afraid to.
Rhand, I knew when I made the post last night that my comments on Shadow weren't adequate. But I was tired and whatever. Yes, it's possible Shadow is scum, and yes, my highlighting of his scum wheelhouse was me expressing a healthy suspicion of his skill, but the rest of his posts just felt generally townie. Not standout town, like LnG's 83, but pretty straitlaced. So I feel like he's likely town, except for the slight paranoia that comes from not having much to remark upon his other posts. I would have thought I would have found something else suspicious or something extra townie, and I...just didn't. So I want to iso him and apply a little more scrutiny.
Compared to Anak, who I also didn't have further questions for, but overall I didn't get much of a feeling for at all.
Shadow got townread because he had a lot of posts, most of which left me with a generally good feeling. Anak gets put near the bottom because he had few posts, none of which gave me much of a feeling.
@Rhand: I don’t think cantrip’s different placement of me/Anak is actually that bad, I can see the mindset that gets him there. Think his catchup doesn’t take him out of the woods yet though.
I’ll come back a little later with an updated reads list, and a declared despy target. (Kinda think I might say Cantrip to be spicy since the point of this is moot if we all say KJ )
So this is about semantics, not substance? Come on Cantrip. You're better than that.
You overestimate my skills, but ok.
Well, I wanted more. I'm not sure what you're on me for. I wanted more than he had said. I had not gotten a good impression of either.
And with regards to the bolded: Rhand said that you didn't look good and shadow was probably town regardless of my alignemnt. I asked why he believed both those statements to be true. And why are they both true regardless of my alignemnt.
Are you trying to say I know both those things to be true? Is that where you're oging with this?
You think people will just realize I'm town overnight?
Thanks.
Since I'm apperently going to die tonight regardless, I'm gonna say some stuff.
I have a bad feeling about Shadow still, but nothing to show. I dislike how Cantrip is attempting to handle me. It feels like he's scumreading me for semantics instead of substance. Does Shadow instabus his buddy though? I want to say no?
If Cantrip is scum it's most likely with Anak/LnGrrR/Rhand in order.
If Shadow is, Rhand becomes slightly more likely.
I strongly dislike having to come up with strong reads less than 200 posts into the game. I'm not that good at mafia guys.
I was going to say the same lol. I think we caught scum
Did you miss that in the thread? It's right there.
Cool so I won't die then.
I'll check out the mechanics now I guess.
Now that I look at that...I'm not sure exactly what I was asking. It made sense to me at the time. o.O
Actually, I'm not. Semantic/editing slips are one of the things I frequently get stuck on and read more into than I ought to. Iirc, stemming from an early game where I caught someone on one and decided they were more reliable than they were. But no, it's not about semantics. Anak's reads up to that point were all within 76 and consisted of indicating believing Osie, finding Rhand scummy for being eager to get to Night, and slight town points to you (for asking people to post so you could get reads) and Shadow (for his follow-up after Osie's claim). He hadn't gone into detail on anyone and hadn't even given a stance on every player in the game (nothing on me or LnG). Your question didn't feel like a follow-up/"give me more" question. It felt like you were saying, "ok, but what about Shadow?"
Ok. I was just surprised, as I had a strong sense of one and not the other, so you trying to put them on equal ??? footing felt off.
Your word choice felt odd. *shrug*
No, I think people will take the information they learn N1 and reassess, which may make absolutely no difference in how you're viewed...or it may make all the difference.
Why?
I don't know what to make of KJ's most recent derp moment. It's the latest in a long list of derps that are hard to believe. How're those mechanics coming, KJ?
Anyway, my strat for this would obviously be target the most objectively scummy player.
UPDATE: Osie claimed Miller so there can't be a Framer. Aiming at scummy town isn't a bad idea then.
Nothing really to say here.
There's my mechanics post. Have fun.
You could be scum with either Anak or LnGrrR. Maybe Rhand, but I'm not scumreading him as much as I was independent of Shadow. I have a gut Shadow read that I'm stuck on. And I don't really like Rhand clearing Shadow for his plan. It's an easy clear, and scum could come up with plans.
@KJ: That sounds like you're completely ruling out any possibility that Osie is lying (i.e. Osie's the Framer, or the Miller/Framer token is the unused one). Am I reading that correctly, and, if so, why are you doing so?
He's been pretty town though, and handled the claim the same way I would have.
TOWN
Me - Duh
Shadow - I think his response to Osie's claim was towny. If he was sccum, I think he jumps on Osie for claiming right after he said not to.
Osie - Miller claim which for now is fine treat as towny, and pretty talkative. Scum likely just accepts my townread without challenging? *shrug*
Cantrip - Feels like town Cantrip from Secret Agent, if a bit calmer. Not familiar with Cantrip's scum game. @Cantrip, do you play differently as scum if your opinion?
Anak - Pretty null. Need to see more, and w I'll move down if there isn't more.
Rhand - Not sure why he harped on my post after I explained it. Feels like a reason to push me after widely townread Osie said Rhand and I were his scumreads. I could be OMGUS'ing, but scum lean so far.
KJ - Hasn't done much apart from call out Cantrip's read on him and not pay attention to the game in whole. I don't see solving.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I don't think KJ responds to a scumbuddy like that.
Cantrip's scum game is similar to his town game. (It's totally his fault.)
I'm actually okay with this at this point since I think I've narrowed it down to Cantrip + Anak with a possible side of WTFOMGBBQ:
Vote Cantripmancer
My despy target would be Cantrip if he's not lynched or Anak otherwise.
Seriously, though? I don't think you're giving him enough credit here.
Eh, just did a quick reread. You're right he is doing stuff, but it didnt really start until Page 3.
Page 3 he gets into why he thinks Rhand is scummy, then...post 120 he implies Shadow is scummy, but I don't see that anywhere else. It kinda pops up out of nowhere. Then he reinforces it 127. Then, just to make sure, he re-reinforces it 133.
Then more recently, just derping all over the place.
Seemingly not caring about the mechanics feels weird for KJ, who I think is a good player and I would expect to pay more attention. And the sudden scum read on shadow throws me more.
One thing I picked up: highly doubt that Rhand and KJ are aligned. I could see KJ'S separation being bussy, but Rhand's responses don't give me that vibe.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@Osie: Is KJ town because of your Cantrip read or are there other reasons?
@Lngr: I guess we have a language issue. You never really answered my question about outing that gambit. That’s why I kept rephrasing it.
The thing with T/S lists and such this early is that there is very little to go off of in terms of posts and points of reference. People doing that too early are trying to get towncred for simply stating ratings. It's busy work, it doesn't help much, doesn't really tie you to anyone, it's a good scum tactic.
Like we are not even 200 posts into this game and people are iso'ing and such and everyone wants a no lynch! This means nobody has to do anything really meaningful in terms of indicating alignment, and yet people keep posting lists and everything.
@Cantrip how confident are you in those reads? You're either amazing at parsing out scum from rereads or lying, and hoping that wall gives your some tasty towncred. Without any real votes or wagons our behavioual analysis is suspect at best
I don't think that going against the no lynch was alignment indicative; too much wine.
115 doesn't feel like a scum mislynch push. A little too genuine in feeling.
The only posts that give me huge pause so far are 127+131; it feels like a potential scum disconnect followed by an attempt to save it.
The flip onto Shadow is a little overwrought, though Killjoy does tend to be a bit that way as either alignment.
Actually, I really don't like 152. His approach to these questions is slimy and disingenuous.
Mechanics confusion and talk about specifically Rhand shooting him is tricky. It could be legit.
Huh. Shoot. I think I'm scumreading him in place of Cantrip now. Cantrip's 172 and Killjoy's response in 174 are a much better look for Cantrip and a much worse look for Killjoy.
Makes me feel significantly better about LnGrrrR too.
Hmm...
Shadow townie
Cantrip townie?
LnGrrrR townie?
Rhand townie?
Anak still not great for a lot of reasons, and 183 is another strike against him for me.
Killjoy scum.
Vote Killjoy (though still down for a no lynch otherwise.)
Nevermind that then.
Damn it. I literally have no town reads now.
Also, if you were despy, who would you shoot at?
A year ago I felt very solidly like my town and scum game were indistinguishable because of a few scum games where I got townread all over the place (leading to the quote that Osie's referencing, where I said "it's not my fault that my scumgame is indistinguishable from my town game (it's totally my fault)"). Then I was scum in a game with Tom (Team 2, I think) and he dismantled that perception pretty handily by calling out what he said was my "used car salesman" projection. I think I was doing better in Phantom Tollbooth, but then I got tracked performing the NK and that was that. So...tl;dr: my scumgame is pretty much to play as exactly as my towngame as possible. That probably doesn't help your perception of me at all.
Um...I asked you to weigh in on ME and LnG, not KJ and LnG. Where do you stand on me? Town or scum? And can you point me to some of the questions you liked from LnG?
What do you think it says that many people (more than two) are doing it this game?
...the desire for a No Lynch stems from the potential for scum to win N1 if we mislynch/Despy hits town/Claim Vig exists. That's not behavioral,it's a process of logic.
Um...what? Are you talking about my 147? I didn't feel particularly confident in any of it; why do you feel like I was being confident? I'm...really confused by your comment. And absence of votes/wagons doesn't mean that we can't behaviorally analyze the game. For example, I feel like Osie has a distinct lack of progression on his LnG read (see below).
What happened to the No Lynch plan that you seemed to be on board with based on your vote for No Lynch in 145 (following Anak's call to action)? (And yes, I know you've since switched your vote to KJ; question still stands.)
Also, what has changed for you on LnG since 102 where you had LnG as your main suspect? In 122 you put me, LnG, and Anak in a group and said if you could remove one of the three, you'd be down for a lynch. And nothing about LnG until 179, where you make the response to LnG about my scumgame and then say you think you've narrowed it down to me+Anak. And then in 184 you say that your review and position reversal on KJ "makes [you] feel better about LnGrrrR too", but nothing in what you discussed about KJ had any bearing on LnG, and you don't say what changed your mind. Can you elaborate, please?
He also confirmed that the Despy dies if he targets town or Godfather, and kills scum, miller, or anyone framed.
I'm still on board with it, but with a better towncore, I figure a lynch might not be remiss.
I'm going to kinda collapse this into one explanation.
I came back to the thread with a slightly weaker townread on KJ than some of my others, and people questioning KJ's alignment. In particular, LnGrrrR doesn't feel like he's TMI'ing or scumpushing KJ. I then focused in on KJ's ISO and in the process reread your interactions with him and liked some of the thoughts at least on him and on Shadow in your posts, in particular 161 and 172.
Then KJ did a bunch of busywork (I know that's hypocritical of me, but people can go away if that's what they want to scumread me on), and while I wasn't happy with a lot of your question post, Killjoy's answers were way worse.
Once I started scumreading KJ, then I looked back even more at you and LnGrrrR and saw some reasonable potential for genuine thought processes there, including what I mentioned about Shadow and Killjoy for you, and that LnGrrrR's read on Killjoy doesn't feel manufactured.
As the number one authority on mechanics in this setup, if the thief steals an item from someone, the number of items that player has will go down.
Also, I tend to default to the thief stealing the bread before the token to maximize interaction between roles.
I'll respond to your other post when I have more time.
True on that. That's a fair point, though I imagine the question or answer was somehow not entirely clear between the two of you, since the Thief role is VERY straight-forward as someone who takes a way an item or token.
Every now and then I play a game and get scum read for everything I do. I don't understand it.
And it's not getting scum read in and of itself that's about, it's the thought that because of that, I feel like I'm being told "You're playing the game wrong".
I don't think people will really understand this because this doesn't REALLY happen to other people, I don't think.
It's not like it feels like people say "this is scum disguised as town" which would make sense coming from others but feels more like "this is just scum".
Sorry. Rant over. Annoyed. Will be available after work for stuff.
I know this feeling all too well... I kinda embraced it in a sense (see the quotes in my signature).
Alice, Bob, Carol, Dan, Eve, Frank, and Greta are playing Token Mafia. Alice and Bob are the Mafia members.