How exactly is he not laying low? He's basically lurking.
Why exactly do you agree with him about flipping EtR? He has given one reason, you make it sound like you agree with his reason do you even know what that is?
He is not?
I don't agree with him, I said I'm on his side. I think Reaverb is town, and I see the whole situation as scum!EtR trying to trap a gambiting villager because gambiting is almost always bad.
Why would ETR not immediately out him then?
Did you read anything I posted or just coasting into today?
Because he can get Tau to do his work for him! If he outs Tau immediately he gets one mislynch. If he waits to see how Tau plays it he can be flexible, potentially netting a two for one and barring that throw town into chaos. I understand your perspective, but it’s just an opinion based on anecdotal evidence and how you would expect it to play out. You think you’re right, but you don’t know that you are.
So I'm thinking. I'm seeing a lot of agreement in the towncircle of Me/Grape/Last/Rhand/tom. That's a bit weird.
If one of those is wrong, I'm leaning toward tom over Rhand.
I need to examine tom/Rhand scumteam I suppose too.
Tom has scum equity with tubba. He kept trying to convince people that my tubba read was bad. He did so five times.
I guess most of the time this would just be whatever but people don't usually spend THAT much time trying to make people see the error in my reads (because my reads are generally just REALLY bad), but he's come around now. He even wants tubba to be the defacto counterwagon to EtR. The leap from "KJ is wrong about Tubba"x5 to "Lets try to lynch tubba to create a counterwagon" is kinda large and weird and might just be bussing.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So I'm thinking. I'm seeing a lot of agreement in the towncircle of Me/Grape/Last/Rhand/tom. That's a bit weird.
If one of those is wrong, I'm leaning toward tom over Rhand.
I need to examine tom/Rhand scumteam I suppose too.
Tom has scum equity with tubba. He kept trying to convince people that my tubba read was bad. He did so five times.
I guess most of the time this would just be whatever but people don't usually spend THAT much time trying to make people see the error in my reads (because my reads are generally just REALLY bad), but he's come around now. He even wants tubba to be the defacto counterwagon to EtR. The leap from "KJ is wrong about Tubba"x5 to "Lets try to lynch tubba to create a counterwagon" is kinda large and weird and might just be bussing.
Wondering if Tom/Tubba/Kami/Riku is a thing.
dude. How many of those times was as a direct response to you pestering me about it? Cuz i think its all but the first one...
You made a bad read, i said so, and then started a tubba wagon when he actually did something interesting. That is not a leap at all.
@ETR
can you go into more detail about your chat? like when exactly did it start, and when exactly did it end?
It looks to have started Saturday morning and closed early Sunday afternoon.
ok more questions which may or may have not been answered. Did you know about it right away? If not when did you finally take a look at it? I mean this would be answered by the first question, but im assuming that you did not post in it at all?
@Mindreaver: I think you're confusing two different groups.
I think EtR legitimately bought Tau's gambit and gave up his scum team, which is EtR, Last, Tom, Rhand. That's the team I'm 80-90% sure on.
You're talking, separately, about EtR's claim that he really meant to signal a different team, which was EtR, me and Tubba. I don't believe that - I think EtR made that "signal" up after the fact.
There's a lot of overthinking going on. D1 kills are generally a crapshoot and best we can hope for is to get lucky or get some info from associatives. Right now we have an incredibly high-info kill option with a good chance to solve the entire game. I get that people want to do behavioral analysis but I feel like we're just wasting time, and we're giving scum time to bury us in wine and misdirection. Note that wisp and tom combined - two of the people in that scum list - are over a third of all posts in the thread. Wisp alone is a quarter of the thread.
Wait.
Wait this is weird.
Talk to me about the bolded. Your lack of certainty that he's not just making up the second signal ("don't believe that". "think he made it up") is weird, because nowhere is any kind of reaction to his casual attempt to signal you as one of the scum.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So I'm thinking. I'm seeing a lot of agreement in the towncircle of Me/Grape/Last/Rhand/tom. That's a bit weird.
If one of those is wrong, I'm leaning toward tom over Rhand.
I need to examine tom/Rhand scumteam I suppose too.
Tom has scum equity with tubba. He kept trying to convince people that my tubba read was bad. He did so five times.
I guess most of the time this would just be whatever but people don't usually spend THAT much time trying to make people see the error in my reads (because my reads are generally just REALLY bad), but he's come around now. He even wants tubba to be the defacto counterwagon to EtR. The leap from "KJ is wrong about Tubba"x5 to "Lets try to lynch tubba to create a counterwagon" is kinda large and weird and might just be bussing.
Wondering if Tom/Tubba/Kami/Riku is a thing.
dude. How many of those times was as a direct response to you pestering me about it? Cuz i think its all but the first one...
You made a bad read, i said so, and then started a tubba wagon when he actually did something interesting. That is not a leap at all.
You're gonna make me look through your iso for the answer to this, huh?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@tau
Question for you, you kinda already gave a slight answer before, but I still find it odd that you were so ok with dropping your reads, like you were reads were well thought out, and not weak in the slightest, so it's odd to me at least, that you were so ok with being wrong, because everything etr said was a complete 180 from your reads
Also I think popins like yours still come from mostly scum, I can probably assume your a decent enough player to fake reads, every post comes with another vote... It just all feels like you are trying too hard to solve the game, or at least pretend to, food for thought I guess
Would love to see less of these large posts and more smalls ones, as well as some more real time
Im not gonna look kj, but i think one was unprompted, one i just mentioned it in passing when i started pushing tubba (for different aka good reasons) and the rest were responding to you.
Also have fun with ayaw. I told no lies, made up no reads, caught a scum, had zero fun the whole time, and got lynched anyway
@ETR
can you go into more detail about your chat? like when exactly did it start, and when exactly did it end?
It looks to have started Saturday morning and closed early Sunday afternoon.
ok more questions which may or may have not been answered. Did you know about it right away? If not when did you finally take a look at it? I mean this would be answered by the first question, but im assuming that you did not post in it at all?
I didn’t realize we were allowed to talk initially. I logged in to confirm I could access it. And then left for the day. By the time I got back on Sunday it was already shut down. The initial role pm said we could talk at night so I made my RVS post here and was done. Then I saw that the Mod has mentioned we could chat for the first 24 hours. I went back to the chat later Sunday reviewed what Tau had posted then just thought about what to do with it.
@Mindreaver: I think you're confusing two different groups.
I think EtR legitimately bought Tau's gambit and gave up his scum team, which is EtR, Last, Tom, Rhand. That's the team I'm 80-90% sure on.
You're talking, separately, about EtR's claim that he really meant to signal a different team, which was EtR, me and Tubba. I don't believe that - I think EtR made that "signal" up after the fact.
There's a lot of overthinking going on. D1 kills are generally a crapshoot and best we can hope for is to get lucky or get some info from associatives. Right now we have an incredibly high-info kill option with a good chance to solve the entire game. I get that people want to do behavioral analysis but I feel like we're just wasting time, and we're giving scum time to bury us in wine and misdirection. Note that wisp and tom combined - two of the people in that scum list - are over a third of all posts in the thread. Wisp alone is a quarter of the thread.
Wait.
Wait this is weird.
Talk to me about the bolded. Your lack of certainty that he's not just making up the second signal ("don't believe that". "think he made it up") is weird, because nowhere is any kind of reaction to his casual attempt to signal you as one of the scum.
I really don't care when scum call me scum.
(I don't even care that much when people I think are town call me scum.)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
But its so... abstract and impersonal. I don't believe vs. it's not true. There's some distance there.
Maybe I can help by clarifying, at least as I understand things: EtR claimed that EtR intentionally made and signaled an impromptu "scum team" that wasn't actually, to EtR's knowledge, a scum team. EtR didn't claim that EtR signaled a real scum team consisting of me, him and Tubba. The latter I know 100% to be false. The former I believe to be false (but not at 100%).
@Mindreaver: I think you're confusing two different groups.
I think EtR legitimately bought Tau's gambit and gave up his scum team, which is EtR, Last, Tom, Rhand. That's the team I'm 80-90% sure on.
You're talking, separately, about EtR's claim that he really meant to signal a different team, which was EtR, me and Tubba. I don't believe that - I think EtR made that "signal" up after the fact.
There's a lot of overthinking going on. D1 kills are generally a crapshoot and best we can hope for is to get lucky or get some info from associatives. Right now we have an incredibly high-info kill option with a good chance to solve the entire game. I get that people want to do behavioral analysis but I feel like we're just wasting time, and we're giving scum time to bury us in wine and misdirection. Note that wisp and tom combined - two of the people in that scum list - are over a third of all posts in the thread. Wisp alone is a quarter of the thread.
Wait.
Wait this is weird.
Talk to me about the bolded. Your lack of certainty that he's not just making up the second signal ("don't believe that". "think he made it up") is weird, because nowhere is any kind of reaction to his casual attempt to signal you as one of the scum.
@Rhand
I hate being asked this, but I’m gonna do it anyways. How about a readslist? It seems like every post you have is a pop in to vote or shade someone without much in the way of content.
@EtR
It’s fishy but plausible that you missed your chat deadline, why didn’t you answer when I asked you a similar question? Will you have another 24 hours after the beginning of the next day phase?
@Tau
Did you see my earlier question regarding the chat parameters? Why didn’t you answer? Can you confirm or deny this?
@Tubba: I’m playing reactive because I’m phoneposting on a 6-day training.
I’m gonna work on (re)reading and expanding my reads when I’m home in the weekend.
Kami most likely just believes that, I'm just not in the mood to tunnel on him anymore, he does scummy things, and he will probably flip town, and probably should be flipped sooner rather than lster
I have 2 out of 20 posts where I talked about that.
No, you used it to muddy the waters. Half the posts were about a game you played with Tom, neutrals winning with scum, and how TOM would behave in a similar situation, and how Sir Chris felt about it. I'm happy to re-read, but all that extra stuff is just so much fluff. It literally doesn't matter when you and tom did in another game. Show me what ETR or Tau would do; or examples where they've run a gambit; those would be relevant.
I've shown this clearly, and you CLEARLY have no read anything I've written. My iso clearly shows independent thought and analysis, if you had taken any care before you shot of this response you would have seen this. But you didn't. Now I don't know if this is your old age catching up with you or if you're just rusty.
Also, to answer your second question.
A more productive question for you is probably: Why don't we have to solve Tau/ETR? What makes killing Rhand better?
I'm not going to prove a negative. And you're a bastard for trying to argue that way. You are saying that we should solve Etr/Tau. I'm asking why? You're response of "Why not" is a bastard response and you clearly have no interest in developing this reason.
We should kill Rhand, because Rhand is scum. But more importantly we should lynch you, because you're clearly scum or have gotten terrible with your absence.
Unvote Vote Mindreaver
Ugh, fine I'll put in the work to actually quote you in a little bit, and use that to prove my point. And dodging my question is ridiculous dude. I answered why. It gives us the most info on my top scumspects, That's why. Maybe I rambled a bit more than was needed, but there it is. Now why do you believe it's something that can just wait for? Do you think scum kills one of them and solves this for us? Because that would surprise the hell out of me. I mean maybe we can rolecop them; I don't want to know if that's a possibility. Maybe we can figure things out based on their votes eventually? That potentially leaves us with even more headaches (what does it mean if they vote together? etc.
I don't see any way for ETR or Tau to prove that they are town to me over time. Scum!them knows that's the play now. I don't know it that's outside the wheelhouse for either of them.
Hes prolly a PR worried about looking bad and tryharding. If i were scum id kill him early
@mafia
this is super gross. Unvote, Vote Tom #riprvs
I really don't like the follow up convo with whisper either. But I do appreciate getting the Rhand and Grape defenses, that will make PoE easier down the line.
sure whatever. This could be town mindreaver either actually finding this scummy because hes forgotten me completely, or wanting to pressure me because... hes forgotten me completely. Lol.
Thats not scummy from me (or in general) and pressuring me doesnt do *****. But whatever its possible...
I mean, the option that goes along with him not believing it is just saying stuff to go with blustery confidence im scum so you should wait to see if he just keeps pushing me and looking for connections or is actually thinking things through
But now you have to watch how he reacts to being called out too so that should be fun
Jesus Tom. You're spilling all the beans.
I count probably 8 or 9 people in this thread that I know, that know Tom well enough, to know that we aren't gonna get a good read on him in the first few pages, even when he does something ridiculously scummy. Fair enough?
So is it necessary to actually say that in thread?
Now, the only two people who spoke up about that fact, when Tom did his PR-fishing (which wasn't helpful, especially because the follow up made it super obvious he found one (or did he? Or does LW want scum to think so? WIFOM fo dayz)) were Grape and Rhand.
So in the worlds where I see Tom is scum, doing some kind of weirdo gambit (which to be fair is in his wheelhouse), I don't see Rhand proclaiming him town and also being a scumbuddy. I think that we would see buddies distancing themselves from something like that, which makes Grape's defense a little harder to swallow (he's probably town, BUT TWO RED FLAGS). That's a fence sit if I've ever seen one. Combined with his opportunistic 4th vote on LW, to keep that wagon rolling, doesn't look good.
In the world where Tom is town and is just being Tom, Rhand's read is probably not alignment indicative either way. Scum could be buddying, or town could just be not "reading tom at level 0". Grape's comment still looks gross. Like "here is a little shade for tom, who is probably town"? I don't think that comes from town mindset. Like, I just don't see how it's helpful to state that.
Anyway, my take-away at the moment was I don't like Grape.
So my question for Grape is, when will you share what these red flags are? Can it be now?
but hey look at that it was neither of those things. He clearly realized he cant get away with that read, and it wasnt pressure for pressures sake or he doesnt give it up that early.
So lets transition that awkwardly into jumping on the growing grape wagon, while lightly leaking that hes paying attention to my rolehunting in a professional capacity.
Then he pops back in after the grape wagon got even bigger because rhand meta, and... doesnt even comment on grape who he thinks is scum only mentions it in passing while vaguely attacking wisp eho he thinks is town PR
Then in response to tau/etr
"In any case, ETR and Tau can't both be telling the truth right now."
Which... a) i think is second most likely and b) has a ton of scum motivation in several possible combinations
I guess this is where i note that i kinda like his read on kami, and they're not super likely partners
Rhand - I had you higher as a townread, but I don't quite know what D_V's attack on your signifies. Gut feel was scum busing.
<snip>
D_V - Your entrance was a vast improvement in the slot, but I have to say "remember when" is the lowest form of conversation. Instead of taking on Tau/ETR with your own opinions, you're telling us about all the other games and gambits and other people's opinions. That doesn't ring true for me.
these two reads taken together is just pure agenda
This is still most likely scum itg
What I was looking for from you, is a response to... some earlier post I'm too lazy to find, where your entire Mind/Grape tunnel BS read exploded a few pages ago when KJ "confirmed" town Grape. Any thoughts there? Or is the Rhand read that Whisper already pointed out, and my play from page 3, the only things you're basing this on?
Let me ask you this. Do you believe I thought that Grape wagon was going to go the distance? Why do you think I engaged you and Whisper early specifically?
I'm probably shooting one of you tonight, change my mind
Oh, interesting. The obvious best move is to shoot not-me, but I'm the only one who knows that.
So maybe you do shoot me. I need to re-read a bit still (my son was sick all night so I didn't get to anything yesterday), but I might be the best kill... man I hate to say that. It probably gets Tom to hunt actual scum, and maybe gives a better read on ETR/Tau/Kami/D_V when I flip. Let me think about this more.
I like Rodemy and Grape. The former actually feels enegaged with the people he is talking to which is more than I can say for our wolf performance last game. Grape is a gut instinct read.
I still find KJ underwhelming, Rhand as well.
Riku/Tuba continue to be LHF. But just like how maniacs can have premium hands, lhf can be wolves, so continuing to watch that.
New list is probably something like:
Me
LW
Rodemy
Grape
Null
One of Tuba/Riku*
KJ
Rhand
LLngrr
Weird, as I usually have the opposite problem, of struggling to find people who can be wolfy.
Quote from Lastwhisper »
Nope u we're scum with GJ, Tom, and cantri
Strangely well aged read, considering this was made 4 days ago.
Tom since you were on the other side of Disinheritance how did you think when I claimed to be a neutral that won with scum? For anyone wondering I pulled this exact same play with Tom, and Tom was town in that game.
I told Tom that I was a neutral survivor that wanted to win with the scum and wanted him to tell his scum buddies this information as well. I also indicated that I "Knew seppel was lying and that I wasn't going to counter claim his buddy".
You can see where he responded to this information by voting Seppel.
I'm not 100% certain to do with the information.
But I feel that if Tom was Town that he would have claimed.
OK smarter people than me discuss.
All of this is about you and Tom and another game. You say you have to think, and then immediately spew this.
For the record even if Wisp's argument was "Even if EtR flips scum it's stupid to assume the list is scum and you should kill me to prove it but killing me is bad because I'm a claimed PR."
It's still Y i k e s.
And for the sake of argument let's say EtR flips scum today. I'm going to push to kill tom tomorrow. The list isn't the most likely answer, but as long as there is a chance it's correct we should pursue it. LW isn't the person I'd choose first off it (tom is the easy first choice) even without the PR claim. If tom flips scum the lol wolves. If tom were to flip town I'd then reevaluate and start digging for wolf reactions with the knowledge that I'm looking for people whose buddy got dunked on but at least didn't ruin the game 100%.
If EtR flips town then we kill Tau. And if he flips town then we learn that yolo gambits are a bad idea.
Grape I agree with the Last part, but doesn't a post like Rhand's
So EtR goes from town Neighbour to town without rolename and an extra hidden ability if his Neighbour dies.
Right...
vote EtR
The ease with which Kami accepts the lynch cascade is very worrysome. Scum if EtR flips scum.
Etr/kami/grape/?
Read like much more inside info.
He votes ETR doesn't address his own implication or Toms. But wants to cascade the kill into KA.
Rhand's vote feels opportunistic.
Some shade for Rhand (prior to you just calling him scum a few posts down). But again, no thoughts given on ETR or Tau, except that "yolo gambits are bad".
Actually, if you're waiting for tom, then never mind.
I'm my own person I can talk about it.
But right now I'm trying to catalog what happened after the claim.
What is your actual stance on the EtR thing? Are you townreading EtR and Reaverb, or do you think there's some truth to EtR's response? Given you're calling tom's and LW's reactions "damage control," which implies they're actually guilty.
I'm really not sure.
ETR could be scum(He could be a form of lost scum and gone "That's like my role seems legit". ) He could be town.
I think there could be truth to ETR's post. I kind of say it in my sum up. I'm not sure why he didn't question his neighbor more in neighbor chat. I guess his play also tells him something about the alignment.
I think Tau and ETR could both be town and I could see that world. Hell Tau could be scum and knows that ETR is town and will tell the truth about the events that transpired.
Its a possibility that ETR got caught. I remember a game a long time ago which was LOTR themed Mines of Moria to be exact. Anyways, the Town in that game was the Goblins/Orcs and the scum was the Fellowship. Someone, day one asked for a race flavor claim and someone claimed Hobbit, they were instantly lynched. I was really sure that they were town and that they couldn't have made that mistake. They were scum and they did just screw up that badly.
Consequently I've run this gambit with Tom. He was town and didn't out me to the town. In fact Sir Chris said if the person was scum they would have instantly claimed and gotten the free town points. I think Sir Chris was right on that. This play isn't nearly as clever as I thought then, and I question if it worked here.
This is a post where you enumerate the options. Only when reminded that you haven't actually weighed in yet. You list the possibilities like everyone else did before you, and then launch back into the analysis of TWO OTHER games, and give us what Sir Chris thought about your gambit with Tom. I didn't like that you used Sir Chris's quote in another game to clear ETR (scum ETR would have just claimed). I didn't like that you used the LotR game to shade ETR (sometimes scum just is stupid). But nowhere do you say what you believe.
I'm going to wait for Tom to get back to me and I'm going to read some more, but man I think lynching ETR is a low percent play.
I think its much more likely that the wolves came to town though when this got aired because MAN did a lot of opportunistic votes get thrown out in all directions.
The only thing I can say is that Tom and Last both went into what I might call "Damage control" and sort of attacked this play immediately. They are also the two most active players though.
I feel pretty sure this is not Town Rhand. Vote Rhand
The very next post you declare that ETR/Tau is low percent, so shouldn't be figured out. And you move onto Rhand. Without every giving a solid read on Tau or ETR or sharing what YOU think about THIS game.
So THAT my friend, is why I characterized your play as "remember when". and I think it's completely accurate.
@GJ
What are you saying at the bottom of your post?
Does killjoy claiming Grape is a N0, does that change anything for you?
Both tubba and Mind responded too my claim in such townie ways xD, with Mind's being a little better
It was a strange post by you considering I wasn't in this game at that stage. It was more the *****post part of my post but eh.
Does killjoy claiming Grape is a N0, does that change anything for you?
It makes me roll my eyes. Been trying to get MU to realize for a while that N0 on a full cop is making a strong role already stronger. Picture that turbo, how differently does it go if the person with the role isn't stupid enough to out it?
Killjoy - /barning grapefruit's read here, tomsloger has discussed why it would be valid even if grapefruit is scum. I haven't even checked the spectator thread mentioned in it. I do want to mention that on the list of Things Scum Lie About, reads based on somebody fulfilling publicly available criteria is way way at the bottom of the list.
Lastwhisper - Done a 180 on them. They went into more detail about how they read entrances to the thread, and while I don't agree with their evaluation it's makes me believe that #15 was made with a (real) weak reason, which removes the contradiction with #20. I also like their activity since I voted them.
Rod - I like his aggression, it felt like he was trying to get the game moving. I don't think he was making the most effective posts, but that struck me more as a fault in ability rather than motivation. Also I remember a couple people saying they disliked his aggression (particularly lastwhisper), which struck as wrong footed - I've found it's Town who want to be more aggressive, since Town is the faction which needs to generate info.
Tubba - I think his few posts demonstrate a surprising amount of Town mindset, I was particularly surprised by #97 as making Lastwhisper throw a strong light on his internal thought processes.
Grapefruit - I think his read on Tom is weird and overconfident, but I like most of the rest of his content. His readslist seems thought-out and consistent with previous posts, and he doesn't feel like he acted as my scumbuddy in our last game together (although it has been quite a while since then.) I particularly like his townread of Killjoy - it moved Killjoy up to townread, when as scum grapefruit could have just stayed silent. Vote on him was mostly for science anyway since Rumanshi was going nowhere.
Figure them out later tier:
tomsloger, M1ndreaver
Both are strong players who have been Town enough for now. Probably not going to try to lynch either of them this Day phase.
Rhand tier:
I have things I both like and dislike about Rhand. I think he's a little too focused on grapefruit/tomsloger, and in #149 he declares that M1ndreaver could be "naive town" which is incongruent to his focus on tomsloger, since tomsloger mentioned M1ndreaver's history as a strong player just a few posts ago in #138. I'm happy to leave him alone for now and see what he does in the future.
AFK tier:
August, EtR, Rumanshi, Vaimes zdtsd
Despite being the only one who's literal-literal vanished, I'm giving August the most slack because the rest showed up and did conspicuously little.
Rumanshi is at the bottom (most scummy) of this tier.
Below average Townpoints tier:
KamikazeArchon:
First there was their vote on Lastwhisper (#61) which was based on a newer post of Lastwhisper (#57). This kind of "I'm going to me-too on a large bandwagon, but state my reasoning is ~completely different from everybody else~ is something I've seen much more from Mafia trying to fake activity then town. #193 even has Kami state that #57 was the SOLE reason he voted Lastwhisper, which I frankly find unbelievable. I don't see how any Townie can look at all the fuss around Lastwhisper and have ZERO opinion.
Additionally #125 strike me as a bad faith of argument, it seems pretty obvious to me Lastwhisper's change in their read of me made his questions about other player's townreads of me less relevant, but in #125 Kami tries to paint this as behavior showing a lack of consistent approach to the game.
LnGrrR - Almost entirely made of weak questions and not moving the game forward. I don't think there's one proactive LrGrrR has taken this game - even his Lastwhisper vote was total RVS. #170 is a whole mess of scum tells - it's information instead of analysis, it's fighting against the existence of information by declaring the reasons the wagon came into existence weak without suggestion alternatives, and LrGrrR states that LrGrrR can't call Tubba scummy for quiet because LrGrrR is being quiet, which is much more a Mafia mindset than a town one. (PS: LrGrrR got called on the information instead of analysis and wrote #192 in response, which predictably declares most votes on the wagon nulltells.)
Vote LnGrrR
Same exact problem here (I know this spot subbed out. At least this one explains it a bit.
Not ready to commit to this yet, but I want to save one of DV/Grape is a wolf. I don't think w/w because I don't think the time that passed, they both post such a similar list.
Also tells me that this much consensus says we have a wolf that is being town read if no one is seemingly fighting this core.
I guess I'm probably the defacto death today so I should probably focus on making sure KJ isn't fooling me and I don't pocket the entire town on his behalf. Pretty sure I'm right though.
@GJ
What are you saying at the bottom of your post?
Does killjoy claiming Grape is a N0, does that change anything for you?
Both tubba and Mind responded too my claim in such townie ways xD, with Mind's being a little better
It was a strange post by you considering I wasn't in this game at that stage. It was more the *****post part of my post but eh.
Does killjoy claiming Grape is a N0, does that change anything for you?
It makes me roll my eyes. Been trying to get MU to realize for a while that N0 on a full cop is making a strong role already stronger. Picture that turbo, how differently does it go if the person with the role isn't stupid enough to out it?
I mean no one is saying he's cop, it could just be info based on the flavor of his role, who knows at this point
@GJ
You realize I'm talking about a different game, correct? Rodemy didn't recall being mafia in a game I played with him? And cantrip isn't even this game, or I'm still just misinterpreting your post...
@GJ
You realize I'm talking about a different game, correct? Rodemy didn't recall being mafia in a game I played with him? And cantrip isn't even this game, or I'm still just misinterpreting your post...
I just thought it was funny you mentioned my name in this game. I didn't think you were hinting I was going to sub in to a wolf slot in this one (yes, I am aware you were talking about a different game). I was just making a bad attempt at a joke, ignore that.
I mean no one is saying he's cop, it could just be info based on the flavor of his role, who knows at this point
Point blank, I think it's nai. I don't think he trying to provide legit cop cover, so I think it's basically a ***** post. It feels early to commit early way, although if KJ flipped wolf, I might consider it making Grape look slightly better, but wouldn't disclude Grape/KJ from being w/w.
Tubba, what makes this like flavorgaming in ghostbusters instead of like [everything dv caused] in ghostbusters?
I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking. In Ghostbusters, Highroller in particular felt that the game could be solved along flavour lines to the exclusion of everything else. Town had an opportunity to disprove it, but thanks to some town lethargy and adroit scumplay, it didn’t happen until much too late.
The current situation feels similar in that we have an opportunity to clear up a confusing issue for town, that if we leave festering only makes preceding days more difficult.
As far as D_V, I alluded to it in Ghostbusters. He’s an agitator, it’s his play style and what seems to work for him. I don’t particularly like it, but it is what it is. His self voting in Ghostbusters did lead to chaos for town to be sure, but it was consistent with his “violently shaking things” approach. I don’t see a corollary here though.
Honestly, I've done of 180 on him after rereading his posts, I feel a lot better on his slot than I previously did, enough that i don't want to Lynch him today as it stands, plus I liked his response to my claim
I think people overreacted, and if we aren't ending the day tomorrow, I would like to see what Etr is bringing to the table now that he isn't staring down a lynch.
You've cherry picked my posts. There are plenty of other posts that I clearly argued other things as well too.
I don't know why you think I wouldn't notice you cherry picked my posts.
????
What's the play here mate?
it's every post from your entrance until my comment. Which ones did I miss?
Spicy.
While I have you hear, what were you talking about when you said something along the lines of "you'd eat your hat if I didn't come in and say the same thing"?
I think too this game has to recognize some truths about this game.
This game is a Normal. The likely setup is 12/4. Scum know who their partners are. Unless something really funky is going on scum know that there will only be 4 mafia players. Its a normal after all.
How in the world is this game going to be balanced with 11/5.
ETR's reasoning of figuring it out actually makes sense to me from a town perspective.
If ANYTHING, I'd say ETR comes out more likely town that Tau does for this.
Tau's play by any stretch of the imagination could not have been calculated for success as town. At least when I made my play with Tom in Disinheritance I got to pick Tom as who I wanted to talk to. Seems like these neighbors started together. It seemed like a good play for a premade mod determined alignment to put a scum member and the lost scum in the same group? What mod makes that decision? None. So, what scum is going to fall for this play? I hope a small minority.
So that's 534. Which is right after 533 that you quoted.
But also your timeline is wrong.
You quoted my 526 post as though I made it after the 533 post. You conclude that I don't give thoughts on the ETR/Tau thing. But that's just wrong. And you're lying and I think you have to be two faced about this.
Yes, I didn't give my exact reasoning for thinking things. But I made it clear I didn't think he was scum based off of that. If you can't pull that from my posts I'm not sure where your grade school reading comprehension teachers went wrong. Look, your timeline is skewed you've miss quoted things out of order and you're ignoring that ALL of these posts are within like hours of each other. What you are seeing me do is work through the problem in REAL time. And give my updated opinion along the way.
I wasn't playing remember when in the way you are claiming. I think the Sir Chris quotes have a lot of validity here. I think I thought that when I pulled that gambit that I was being really clever, and it didn't really work the way I thought it might. I think this gambit is even worse than my own.
In disinheritance players got to choose who they talked to out of game, this is a preset neighbor. I've talked about this a bit, I just think that any scum would really do a double take on the neighbor claim and lone wolf claim. Like a massive double take in a normal. It doesn't make any sense why any scum would believe this, UNLESS there were only three scum in the game.
In my gambit I thought Tom should have outed me if he was town. He didn't. And I think the reasoning why as townie makes sense to me, you want to see where this is going. Even ETR in this game has said "I didn't believe him."
So, the conclusion comes to what do I think is likely, and with past experiences what do I think is the likely result.
I gave the LoTR example, just to say that maybe I'm wrong, because I don't think its likely and was giving an example of a stupid gambit working. Like, I said I was working on this in real time.
Really, I just don't think that the gambit worked. I think ETR was town and was testing the waters and I think Tau's thought process was really bad for the variety of reasons his claim doesn't work as a trap. So, like I've said I think there are two town's FPSing each other. I don't think it makes a dichotomy and I don't think it needs to be resolved. You're logic that this needs to be resolved is bad, its a low percent lynch and I almost guarantee its not going to flip scum. The whole town's logic for being pro lynching ETR is that he should have claimed, I disagree. I think claiming is viable, but I think him doing his own "Lets see where this goes" is also viable. Tom did that with me.
At the end of the day its going to come down to you saying "Its the correct to reveal" and I'm going to counter well maybe its the higher percent play, but
his play isn't anti-town. So, unless you think that the whole scum team has been caught, then he isn't scum. Because for you to think this play has revealed the whole scum team is just a joke to me. And frankly if you think that, I don't respect a word that comes out of your mouth.
Really, I've been nice and keep sort of hedging a little. What I really should say, is I think you're all trash and I'm 99.99% sure that he's going to flip town and it will be a whole waste of a lynch.
You've cherry picked my posts. There are plenty of other posts that I clearly argued other things as well too.
I don't know why you think I wouldn't notice you cherry picked my posts.
????
What's the play here mate?
it's every post from your entrance until my comment. Which ones did I miss?
Spicy.
While I have you hear, what were you talking about when you said something along the lines of "you'd eat your hat if I didn't come in and say the same thing"?
How is that spicy?
Did you even bother to verify what he said?
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Because he can get Tau to do his work for him! If he outs Tau immediately he gets one mislynch. If he waits to see how Tau plays it he can be flexible, potentially netting a two for one and barring that throw town into chaos. I understand your perspective, but it’s just an opinion based on anecdotal evidence and how you would expect it to play out. You think you’re right, but you don’t know that you are.
can you go into more detail about your chat? like when exactly did it start, and when exactly did it end?
Right???
vote mindreaver
If one of those is wrong, I'm leaning toward tom over Rhand.
I need to examine tom/Rhand scumteam I suppose too.
Tom has scum equity with tubba. He kept trying to convince people that my tubba read was bad. He did so five times.
I guess most of the time this would just be whatever but people don't usually spend THAT much time trying to make people see the error in my reads (because my reads are generally just REALLY bad), but he's come around now. He even wants tubba to be the defacto counterwagon to EtR. The leap from "KJ is wrong about Tubba"x5 to "Lets try to lynch tubba to create a counterwagon" is kinda large and weird and might just be bussing.
Wondering if Tom/Tubba/Kami/Riku is a thing.
You made a bad read, i said so, and then started a tubba wagon when he actually did something interesting. That is not a leap at all.
It looks to have started Saturday morning and closed early Sunday afternoon.
I had a terrible time, for the record.
Wait this is weird.
Talk to me about the bolded. Your lack of certainty that he's not just making up the second signal ("don't believe that". "think he made it up") is weird, because nowhere is any kind of reaction to his casual attempt to signal you as one of the scum.
That's gonna suck.
Question for you, you kinda already gave a slight answer before, but I still find it odd that you were so ok with dropping your reads, like you were reads were well thought out, and not weak in the slightest, so it's odd to me at least, that you were so ok with being wrong, because everything etr said was a complete 180 from your reads
Also I think popins like yours still come from mostly scum, I can probably assume your a decent enough player to fake reads, every post comes with another vote... It just all feels like you are trying too hard to solve the game, or at least pretend to, food for thought I guess
Would love to see less of these large posts and more smalls ones, as well as some more real time
Also have fun with ayaw. I told no lies, made up no reads, caught a scum, had zero fun the whole time, and got lynched anyway
I didn’t realize we were allowed to talk initially. I logged in to confirm I could access it. And then left for the day. By the time I got back on Sunday it was already shut down. The initial role pm said we could talk at night so I made my RVS post here and was done. Then I saw that the Mod has mentioned we could chat for the first 24 hours. I went back to the chat later Sunday reviewed what Tau had posted then just thought about what to do with it.
(I don't even care that much when people I think are town call me scum.)
I saw this too. I’m sold Kami is scum.
I hate being asked this, but I’m gonna do it anyways. How about a readslist? It seems like every post you have is a pop in to vote or shade someone without much in the way of content.
@EtR
It’s fishy but plausible that you missed your chat deadline, why didn’t you answer when I asked you a similar question? Will you have another 24 hours after the beginning of the next day phase?
@Tau
Did you see my earlier question regarding the chat parameters? Why didn’t you answer? Can you confirm or deny this?
I’m gonna work on (re)reading and expanding my reads when I’m home in the weekend.
I don't see any way for ETR or Tau to prove that they are town to me over time. Scum!them knows that's the play now. I don't know it that's outside the wheelhouse for either of them.
Finally, I was always terrible
Let me ask you this. Do you believe I thought that Grape wagon was going to go the distance? Why do you think I engaged you and Whisper early specifically?
So maybe you do shoot me. I need to re-read a bit still (my son was sick all night so I didn't get to anything yesterday), but I might be the best kill... man I hate to say that. It probably gets Tom to hunt actual scum, and maybe gives a better read on ETR/Tau/Kami/D_V when I flip. Let me think about this more.
I like Rodemy and Grape. The former actually feels enegaged with the people he is talking to which is more than I can say for our wolf performance last game. Grape is a gut instinct read.
I still find KJ underwhelming, Rhand as well.
Riku/Tuba continue to be LHF. But just like how maniacs can have premium hands, lhf can be wolves, so continuing to watch that.
New list is probably something like:
Me
LW
Rodemy
Grape
Null
One of Tuba/Riku*
KJ
Rhand
LLngrr
Weird, as I usually have the opposite problem, of struggling to find people who can be wolfy.
Strangely well aged read, considering this was made 4 days ago.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
What are you saying at the bottom of your post?
Does killjoy claiming Grape is a N0, does that change anything for you?
Both tubba and Mind responded too my claim in such townie ways xD, with Mind's being a little better
All of this is about you and Tom and another game. You say you have to think, and then immediately spew this.
Some shade for Rhand (prior to you just calling him scum a few posts down). But again, no thoughts given on ETR or Tau, except that "yolo gambits are bad".
This is a post where you enumerate the options. Only when reminded that you haven't actually weighed in yet. You list the possibilities like everyone else did before you, and then launch back into the analysis of TWO OTHER games, and give us what Sir Chris thought about your gambit with Tom. I didn't like that you used Sir Chris's quote in another game to clear ETR (scum ETR would have just claimed). I didn't like that you used the LotR game to shade ETR (sometimes scum just is stupid). But nowhere do you say what you believe. The very next post you declare that ETR/Tau is low percent, so shouldn't be figured out. And you move onto Rhand. Without every giving a solid read on Tau or ETR or sharing what YOU think about THIS game.
So THAT my friend, is why I characterized your play as "remember when". and I think it's completely accurate.
It's your turn to project town now
It was a strange post by you considering I wasn't in this game at that stage. It was more the *****post part of my post but eh.
It makes me roll my eyes. Been trying to get MU to realize for a while that N0 on a full cop is making a strong role already stronger. Picture that turbo, how differently does it go if the person with the role isn't stupid enough to out it?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Mmm, I don't like how concensus this list feels, also, did vaimes have any reason to be orange over null at this point Grape?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Same exact problem here (I know this spot subbed out. At least this one explains it a bit.
Not ready to commit to this yet, but I want to save one of DV/Grape is a wolf. I don't think w/w because I don't think the time that passed, they both post such a similar list.
Also tells me that this much consensus says we have a wolf that is being town read if no one is seemingly fighting this core.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
What a strange post to make if you are town.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You realize I'm talking about a different game, correct? Rodemy didn't recall being mafia in a game I played with him? And cantrip isn't even this game, or I'm still just misinterpreting your post...
I just thought it was funny you mentioned my name in this game. I didn't think you were hinting I was going to sub in to a wolf slot in this one (yes, I am aware you were talking about a different game). I was just making a bad attempt at a joke, ignore that.
Point blank, I think it's nai. I don't think he trying to provide legit cop cover, so I think it's basically a ***** post. It feels early to commit early way, although if KJ flipped wolf, I might consider it making Grape look slightly better, but wouldn't disclude Grape/KJ from being w/w.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking. In Ghostbusters, Highroller in particular felt that the game could be solved along flavour lines to the exclusion of everything else. Town had an opportunity to disprove it, but thanks to some town lethargy and adroit scumplay, it didn’t happen until much too late.
The current situation feels similar in that we have an opportunity to clear up a confusing issue for town, that if we leave festering only makes preceding days more difficult.
As far as D_V, I alluded to it in Ghostbusters. He’s an agitator, it’s his play style and what seems to work for him. I don’t particularly like it, but it is what it is. His self voting in Ghostbusters did lead to chaos for town to be sure, but it was consistent with his “violently shaking things” approach. I don’t see a corollary here though.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You've cherry picked my posts. There are plenty of other posts that I clearly argued other things as well too.
I don't know why you think I wouldn't notice you cherry picked my posts.
????
What's the play here mate?
That's what I've been arguing. I'm not really sure how you don't understand that's my position. Could your play be any more lazier?
Its just like "Look at this low percent lynch. Top scum here."
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Spicy.
While I have you hear, what were you talking about when you said something along the lines of "you'd eat your hat if I didn't come in and say the same thing"?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
But also your timeline is wrong.
You quoted my 526 post as though I made it after the 533 post. You conclude that I don't give thoughts on the ETR/Tau thing. But that's just wrong. And you're lying and I think you have to be two faced about this.
Yes, I didn't give my exact reasoning for thinking things. But I made it clear I didn't think he was scum based off of that. If you can't pull that from my posts I'm not sure where your grade school reading comprehension teachers went wrong. Look, your timeline is skewed you've miss quoted things out of order and you're ignoring that ALL of these posts are within like hours of each other. What you are seeing me do is work through the problem in REAL time. And give my updated opinion along the way.
I wasn't playing remember when in the way you are claiming. I think the Sir Chris quotes have a lot of validity here. I think I thought that when I pulled that gambit that I was being really clever, and it didn't really work the way I thought it might. I think this gambit is even worse than my own.
In disinheritance players got to choose who they talked to out of game, this is a preset neighbor. I've talked about this a bit, I just think that any scum would really do a double take on the neighbor claim and lone wolf claim. Like a massive double take in a normal. It doesn't make any sense why any scum would believe this, UNLESS there were only three scum in the game.
In my gambit I thought Tom should have outed me if he was town. He didn't. And I think the reasoning why as townie makes sense to me, you want to see where this is going. Even ETR in this game has said "I didn't believe him."
So, the conclusion comes to what do I think is likely, and with past experiences what do I think is the likely result.
I gave the LoTR example, just to say that maybe I'm wrong, because I don't think its likely and was giving an example of a stupid gambit working. Like, I said I was working on this in real time.
Really, I just don't think that the gambit worked. I think ETR was town and was testing the waters and I think Tau's thought process was really bad for the variety of reasons his claim doesn't work as a trap. So, like I've said I think there are two town's FPSing each other. I don't think it makes a dichotomy and I don't think it needs to be resolved. You're logic that this needs to be resolved is bad, its a low percent lynch and I almost guarantee its not going to flip scum. The whole town's logic for being pro lynching ETR is that he should have claimed, I disagree. I think claiming is viable, but I think him doing his own "Lets see where this goes" is also viable. Tom did that with me.
At the end of the day its going to come down to you saying "Its the correct to reveal" and I'm going to counter well maybe its the higher percent play, but
his play isn't anti-town. So, unless you think that the whole scum team has been caught, then he isn't scum. Because for you to think this play has revealed the whole scum team is just a joke to me. And frankly if you think that, I don't respect a word that comes out of your mouth.
Really, I've been nice and keep sort of hedging a little. What I really should say, is I think you're all trash and I'm 99.99% sure that he's going to flip town and it will be a whole waste of a lynch.
How is that spicy?
Did you even bother to verify what he said?