KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I see it as more of a "want" disguised as a "need" there are several votes on him that are so blanket, me and Rhand mind-melded when he placed his thoughts i why he voted, but it was weird that he made that his defining reason, a couple others didnt even give reasons if I recall
it doesnt make sense for town!etr to do anything hes done, nor does it make sense for scum!etr, thats the problem from my point of view
Anyway I'm not completely opposed to the idea of town EtR but the changing who he meant to indicate is a really bad reason to think that. I can buy him wanting to play it close to the chest but that still leaves his catch up not making any sense.
You don't think that's a weird thing for scum to do?
Caught scum don't have a lot of options.
Caught scum don't generally do things to make them selves look worse on purpose though, is my point.
Desperation is a thing. Risky attempts are a thing. Grasping at straws is a thing.
KJ is there a reason you keep asking everyone else for opinions and are not pursing your own line of thought?
Anyways the case for Rhand. When I Iso'd Rhand I thought I was going to see 5 posts total, but he actual has 24!
In Rhands first meaningful post after the RVS he Votes grapefruit for meta reasons.
Then follows it up with a "Tom is town" on post 120 YEAH ok LOL.
He then follows up with a Bad vote on Tom so ztstd is town. Which I think is really bad reasons.
Rhands next three posts he takes no stances at all.
Claims scum lngr, doesn't ever purse.
Spends the rest of his posts talking about his Grape Meta read.
Then does the EtR, Tau "Discrediting all the top town"
Says he wants to sort out if there is a dichotomy, then I guess at some point concludes that there is and votes EtR.
Why? because of town Neighbor to town(Even though this was never claimed by EtR) and the extra ability(Which because EtR hadn't full claimed we never knew about).
Its such a weak point.
Talks about Kami wanting the lynch cascade being worrying and then ATTEMPTS HIS OWN lynch cascade. Onto Kami.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@DV: Like I said earlier, I like making people talk about people.
I also like getting others opinions on people that I might be questioning my own reads on.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ it's weird but the whole thing is weird no matter how we slice it.
If he's town it's weird he signaled the wrong people in a very deliberate fashion. And weird he kept it under wraps but didn't come out saying "yes Tau said this and I didn't believe his claim at all but I wanted to see how he handled it and I learned x." Plus he ignored my questions about his catch up post.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I see it as more of a "want" disguised as a "need" there are several votes on him that are so blanket, me and Rhand mind-melded when he placed his thoughts i why he voted, but it was weird that he made that his defining reason, a couple others didnt even give reasons if I recall
it doesnt make sense for town!etr to do anything hes done, nor does it make sense for scum!etr, thats the problem from my point of view
Town ETR it actually makes more sense. I'm going to sheep Sir Chris's response from when I tried this.
Scum would have immediately outed D_V and used the spectacle to take the town away from itself for a day.
Tom, as scum, would have leveraged that immediately. It would have consumed the day and, at worst from a scum perspective, provide a huge distraction.
It's would I would have done as scum. Who cares what a neutral could in theory do? The game is won and lost during the day, and giving the town fresh meat to chew on that wasn't my team would 1) amusing and 2) would make me, personally, look amazing.
I have been Tom's scumbuddy, he likes to prop himself up. He wouldn't have cared about the macro strategy of leashing a friendly neutral D_V, he would have thrown him to the town wolves and smiled at us like "see? I'm so town."
@DV: Like I said earlier, I like making people talk about people.
I also like getting others opinions on people that I might be questioning my own reads on.
You should give me a read list then so I can verify that's what you're doing.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@DV that reads like a very Tom specific read from Chris. Even if we accept that as true for the average player I don't buy EtRs reaction as a town one. His main reply was about the logistics of believing the claim. I mean I can respect that level of calm but it doesn't make sense to me as a reply.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Anyway I'm not completely opposed to the idea of town EtR but the changing who he meant to indicate is a really bad reason to think that. I can buy him wanting to play it close to the chest but that still leaves his catch up not making any sense.
You don't think that's a weird thing for scum to do?
What about townEtR not outing claimed scum? Or throwing out names semi randomly? I can’t understand how that play makes sense from a town perspective. If scumTau made a gambit day one to save buddy LngGrr, several people are falling for it, what does townEtR gain by having those players want to kill him and start working through a list he made up?
For me it’s not even so much about EtR’s alignment anymore but how his list is affected by his alignment.
I just feel scumTau does this differently. He had a masterful performance in F&E pretending to scum hunt. This gambit seems to convoluted to be real, for minimal gains. If it works and he saves LngGrr today, EtR flips town and he does tomorrow, and LngGrr the day after. That’s two for oneing yourself and I can’t see it.
@Etr/Tau
How does your chat work? Was it a night 0 thing? When was the cutoff for communication?
@DV that reads like a very Tom specific read from Chris. Even if we accept that as true for the average player I don't buy EtRs reaction as a town one. His main reply was about the logistics of believing the claim. I mean I can respect that level of calm but it doesn't make sense to me as a reply.
You clearly haven't read everything I've written, but let me try and sum it up.
His actions don't make any sense from scum. Not town. Scum have immediate ability to verify this claim. They look at their partners and say oh there are three of us added up. A forth being in the game could be possible.
Why then upon realizing this does he not just talk in the neighborhood?
Its also a Shadow game so its more likely then not that scum have day chat. So, I'm not buying this play as scum even more then.
Lets assume for the sake of argument there is a neutral in this game(Or a lost scum) and so there are only three scum currently known.
This still doesn't get around why he just doesn't talk in the neighborhood the next day.
He also signals three people which takes us to four including himself and then FIVE with this lone wolf. That's not balanced. So we have one fake claim in our scum claiming truthfully to our neighbor and faking another claim? Because the only way a scum could think this is true is if there are only three scum members, but he has signaled that there are four scum members.
AND on top of that scum have to believe that the mod placed them in a neighborhood from Day 1 AND told the lone wolf that their neighbor was a scum member.
Furthermore Tau is a really experienced player from the sounds of it and he ran through these same numbers and determined this was a good play? It goes beyond reason for any scum member to accept this. The only thing this is ever going to likely do is **** around with town members. That's it.
Its a low percent play that has gotten an even worse low percent lynch.
Just to be clear you have Tau FPSing with one of the lowest thought out plays.
And then ETR FPSing back.
The only thing that is giving me pause as I work through this is that I need to revisit the ETR part where he claims he only signaled two others which would actually make some of this MAYBE make sense from a scum perspective.
Grape: I'll out this now since the wagon on him is unlikely to get any bigger. Was gonna wait till L-2 to maximize the VCA potential but it maxed out at I think 5. I'll do that later.
I'm Manuela, and I have a special ability. I know one person's alignment at the beginning of the game. That was Grape. He is town. I've also been provided with his name (I guess to prove my claim) if its necessary.
Last: His reactions and play have been on par with town Last that I've played with many a time. I'm pretty sure this is town last.
Tom: I hope hope hope I;m not jumping the gun on this, but this seems like town tom. I recall a post he made earlier that seemed like a genuine reaction to the EtR/Tau situation (It started "Bull***** solving EtR solves this game" or something. I think that was an actual reaction.
Rhand: I'm back and forth on him a bit but... I think I like how he saw the 'verbiage' tell and acted on it. I think he actually thinks he had something there. His EtR vote was bad, but I'm willing to overlook that in favor of the confidence that this tell is probably genuine.
EtR/Tau: I'll unpack this later when I have time. It might not be within the next 24 hours though due to work. After work Thurs is morel ikely given the amount of work necessary, though maybe in the hour I have after work tomorrow I can do it?
August, DV: August is null for obvious reasons.
DV I wanna look at the person he replaced as well as him and form an opinion that way. I've agreed with some of his points though, so there's that.
Vaimes: Made some posts I haven't liked, and overall hasn't seemed like townVaimes.
Rod: This happened fairly recently. Some of his votes have been questionable. Part of this is a bit of gut though. I've agreed with some of the stuff he's done as well.
KA: This is literally "haven't seen anything townie from him" despite having a good amount of posts. Just doesn't feel town/.
Riku: Pokes his head in to do basically nothing every now and then then disappears again. I've discussed why he's scum for it, but I'd prefer a better reason than "He's lurking and that's meta" so he's orange.
Tubba: I'd prefer to make a seperate post on him but again no time. Suffice it to say I'm seeing a lot of Low Fantasy in him this game, plus I recall thinking this game that he's purposely missing the forest for the trees.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Fancy Play Syndrome, its when people do stupid stuff because they think it works, but they actually are just selfish, and somehow correlate one positive outcome to meaning its always a positive outcome
Riku is edging ever so slightly towards his scum meta that I can agree on
Im still a few hours from acrually catching up and (probably) not answering all the questions ive been asked...
But just gonna say the rodemy and ruma reactions to etr v tau are the first that actively looked like people that don't know anything.
Which... yeah its rod and ruma but its something
And interesting... If I can ask what's your flavor KJ?
@DV I get that it doesn't make any sense as scum. It would be incredibly bone headed to believe tau there. But equally I cannot make heads or tails of his thought process if town there. I don't buy the reasoning chris gave on Tom applying here. And I can't come up with any logic that makes sense to me for how he handled it if he's town. His explanations lack any interest in solving Tau from this whole mess don't feel like a townie.
His main analysis was in the chat it was NAI and in thread Tau was a little townie which is hardly indicative of solving.
And interesting... If I can ask what's your flavor KJ?
@DV I get that it doesn't make any sense as scum. It would be incredibly bone headed to believe tau there. But equally I cannot make heads or tails of his thought process if town there. I don't buy the reasoning chris gave on Tom applying here. And I can't come up with any logic that makes sense to me for how he handled it if he's town. His explanations lack any interest in solving Tau from this whole mess don't feel like a townie.
His main analysis was in the chat it was NAI and in thread Tau was a little townie which is hardly indicative of solving.
You have to look at it this way though.
What makes more sense?
Scum? Or Town?
Scum we can agree it makes no sense. (We might also agree that Tau saying indicate by having @s with 4 or more also doesn't make sense for a town member to say either. Fundamentally, you have to accept that Tau's play makes no sense as town either for all of the reasons I've discussed.)
You see the Town in Tau, but seem unable to see the town in ETR for basically doing the same FPS bull*****.
ETR decided to see where it took him and not out it. Something similar to what Tom thought. Let's see where it goes. That's incredibly townie.
Your basic premise is that a town member would have to reveal(Or should reveal) this information. Fundamentally, I disagree. ETR himself acknowledged that he thought it was town gambiting.
Things to recognize about ETR look at Ghost Busters, not the best play. Add FPS on top of that and suddenly its a WTF is going on.
Also what do you mean his lack of interest in solving Tau? What exactly is there to be gained from the Tau gambit for Tau's alignment? He's said he thinks Tau is town. Grape are you reading the same game as me or just spouting opinions?
unvote
With the claims matching, t/t is the most likely option because I don’t think shadow would create a win more situation.
@tau: do you also not know what ability you can unlock?
Grape / Kami / tubba? / ?
@DV: don’t go and tunnel me and then say stuff like “not sure who was townreading him”. You’re only reading my posts it seems?
@Wisp: I planned to use the Grape wagon to try to catch scum. Also I was running out of ways to say "I'm town reading Grape but can't tell you why." I tried actually town reading him... But I'm not. Thank God it was Grape because I suck at reading him.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Think grapes being really weird. Ive seen kj claim so i guess this isnt currently a scumread but its still weird. Like, the eay he eliminated etr/tau as both town feels terrible. His stance on me makes no sense. He just says me wanting his flip is scummy when i feel like ive made pretty clear what info i get from it either way and he hasnt really disagreed with those conclusions and hes not even in my top 4 scumreads anymore and this paragraph has no point if im not reading grape right now.
Aside from kj claim he has scum equity-- especially with mind, a bit with vaimes, and most especially if etr/tau are both town.
But now i guess it would have to be with kj. Which seems even less real now than it did when he first made the townread
This is even more a scumpost in the v/v etr/tau world. Which ive still got as second most likely after etrscum/towntau.
This would be scumtubba projecting pretty hard on pushing this (in that case) false dichotomy to its conclusion.
Whereas the kami bull***** "this solves the game" makes sense from an etr partner (or a bad townie, to be fair)
The other etr votes all fall somewhere in this spectrum but i think tubba/kami are the extremes
Or possibly theres 3 extremes and rodemy is the other one but that shape gets wonky if someone busts and looks like theyre bussing tau and im rambling again
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Oh I just saw it lol. Hard to swallow because I really thought I found something there
It does explain your weird behaviour around the Grape wagon lol.
unvote, vote Kami
I’ll get to analysing people’s reactions to the Grape thing later.
@DV I get a lot of what you are saying but I don't think it makes as much sense as you think it does.
To me both make very little sense. I ended up deciding scum makes more sense but not by a ton.
I find your argument very unpersuasive due to you insisting that letting it ride is the good and correct play but also reminding me that you don't think I should expect EtR to play well. I believe you think both those things but it feels like you being aggressive rhetorically to prove the point.
I've been trying all day to think through what I'd do as town and I need to throw that metric out as it's stuck on I'd open it to discussion immediately. Since your post I've been trying to think of how I'd handle it if I was letting it ride.
I'm still really struggling with the claims of incorrect signaling. I get that's your point about the botched claim in GB. But this looks so deliberate. The formatting makes it clear it was an attempt to signal and the questions don't have any special relevance to their targets.
But let's take your assumption it was a mistake and EtR is town. He gets the message, flubs playing along with it and is instantly wagoned overnight.
And his response is to repeatedly say "Yes that's what happened, I didn't think he was scum so I tried to test him, but I screwed up my test anyway, and this is my role, and the people I named make no sense as a scum team and I didn't even mean to name them. And that's all I have."
If I was town and had the foresight to make that play and Tau outed it instantly the first thing I'd do is dig into people's votes and figure out what happened and try to find scum. Instead he talks to Tau, LW, and Tom and primarily says "well this is weird." That doesn't seem like a thing I'd do as town. Or a thing I'd imagine careless but insightful (because say what you will about the claim in GB EtR did some solid hunting and analysis) town to do.
Oh grapes push on last is pretty ***** too imo. One of me and grape doesnt understand how last plays at all...
Whatever
@kj you asked me a bunch of questions.
I reserve the right to change my mind about not answering them later.
Most of them ive already answered though im not really leaving that much unsaid this game
Can anyone tell me why it's a certainty that EtR or Reverb must flip town/scum or scum/town and not town/town? Or even scum/scum? Are they the type who would try out a gambit like this? I know neighbours that I usually see have a scum in them, or are scum (The neighbourizer is scum I've seen often)
Cause I saw Reverb's explanation of his gambit, and it just seemed weird. As did EtR's response.
i mean, i was discounting w/w because that not how neighbors work very often. But now theyve both claimed that neighbor might not even show up in their flips i probably cant...
They dont look like buddies at all though and im still at v/w>v/v>w/v>w/w
There was more of tubba in this chunk that looked like riling up rodemy to make sure he can lynch etr *and* tau.
Hes kinda exuding that agenda...
So (for a 5th time apparently) kj's tubba read is still bad but it might be correct anyway
One thing kj quoted was the vaimes read i made.
Still works. If grape really is town they way that was going down after rhands meta thing scumvaimes doesnt take that and add a bunch of reasons why towngrape should die. Hes just not the type of scum player that wants to take control of mislynching a townie when theres already someone else doing a good job of it. Hes way too worried about looking bad as scum.
It makes a lot of sense as w/w, or as townvaimes, in both cases its just someone under scrutiny
Oh grapes push on last is pretty ***** too imo. One of me and grape doesnt understand how last plays at all...
Whatever
@kj you asked me a bunch of questions.
I reserve the right to change my mind about not answering them later.
Most of them ive already answered though im not really leaving that much unsaid this game
Can anyone tell me why it's a certainty that EtR or Reverb must flip town/scum or scum/town and not town/town? Or even scum/scum? Are they the type who would try out a gambit like this? I know neighbours that I usually see have a scum in them, or are scum (The neighbourizer is scum I've seen often)
Cause I saw Reverb's explanation of his gambit, and it just seemed weird. As did EtR's response.
i mean, i was discounting w/w because that not how neighbors work very often. But now theyve both claimed that neighbor might not even show up in their flips i probably cant...
They dont look like buddies at all though and im still at v/w>v/v>w/v>w/w
There was more of tubba in this chunk that looked like riling up rodemy to make sure he can lynch etr *and* tau.
Hes kinda exuding that agenda...
So (for a 5th time apparently) kj's tubba read is still bad but it might be correct anyway
One thing kj quoted was the vaimes read i made.
Still works. If grape really is town they way that was going down after rhands meta thing scumvaimes doesnt take that and add a bunch of reasons why towngrape should die. Hes just not the type of scum player that wants to take control of mislynching a townie when theres already someone else doing a good job of it. Hes way too worried about looking bad as scum.
It makes a lot of sense as w/w, or as townvaimes, in both cases its just someone under scrutiny
someone under scrutiny so vaimes went to look at them. If theyre w/w in order to not look bad, if vaimes is town because thats what tou do if someone is a topic of conversation
So yeah, if grape is really town, vaimes is highly likely to be as well
Also gonna take this opportunity to be real clear about my etr thoughts here.
Tau's post about his gambit had all but no effect on my reads itself.
Like, no change on etr, moves tau up just because it looks more like a thing he tried to see what would happen than a plan to get townies lynched.
Etrs reaction, and specifically his stance on tau since, definitely has scum equity. He got a little better once it calmed down a little (not that still at L2 and almost definitely dying early this game is calm but you know what i mean, once the frenzy died down) but etr is a pretty chill dude and i can imagine his scummiest posting coming only when rattled when hes scum (ftr this is a personality read i dont know etrs scumgame at all)
But thats not enough for me to think hes more likely scum than mind, or lngrr. Or even tubba/kami but their percentages change so drastically based on etr flip that thats not actually relevant i guess...
Aaand I just got to the ETR claim. I'm posting this list anyways. Assume this list stops at the ETR/Reaverb Tau claim.
Town
tomsloger – He seems town. I need to revisit this read pretty much every day though. Note to self if Tom seems to come to conclusions that seem strange revisit immediately. Tom has also echoed quite a few thoughts I had while I was reading the thread.
Lastwhisper – Seems pure. At least for the moment. I've always felt that last just produces so much content that if he is scum he will slip up at some point. Fine with having him in town for the moment.
Rodemy – Slightly over aggressive at the beginning. I don't think he's scum right now though. Also whats the probability of him rolling scum three games in a row /s.
Reaverb Tau – Up until #226 I was slightly scum reading them. Their list didn't seem like the worst thing I've ever read and their scum team matched my scum team at this point.
Grapefruit21 – I don't think I've ever seen Grape open power wolf. Also, hes reasoning in a way that I agree with. I'd be reading through the thread seeing things and then grape would echo them. Probably my weakest town read though.
Neutral IE the “August” standard.
KamikazeArchon – I'd be tempted to move KA to town. In ghostbusters he felt cold and distant. Seems a lot more bubbly here.
M1ndreaver – I don't feel like Mind has really done much either way. He's been trying to solve enough I suppose, but I'm just left with a void of apathy after reading his posts.
Vaimes – I was already scum reading him, because his post felt like catch up join the largest wagon when he joined the grape wagon. Tom, echoing my thoughts almost immediately makes me think this is perhaps more valid then I was giving it credit for.
Tubba – I really disliked Tubba's push onto last. All of the content that was flying around and in that 280 post that's what he decides to focus on before he fades back into the shadows?
Killjoy – KJ's posts have been a little too low effort for me. Its pinging me the wrong way and their comments have been almost abrupt. I'm not really sure how else to describe it. Its like instead of developing any ideas he just veers somewhere else. His town read of Rhand in 300 feels bad to me.
Scum
Didn't sort these four.
EtR
Rhand
LnGrrrR
Rumanshi
so i expected last/rod to be among your townreads.
And knew youd scumread vaimes regardless of frankly either your alignment or his because you're a salt mine.
Not loving your townleans on tau/grape. Towndv usually stubbornly sticks that type of player at "could be scum". But "could be town" isnt that far off i suppose.
Didn't actually try to guess your read of me...
Kami read only one that makes me think "partner" just cause stick him lower but still defend is such a prime buddy slot, but its kinda eh even as im currently thinking about scumkami
Tubba read looks good
Kj read looks pretty bad
Meh you can be town for a bit lets see how it feels.
I'm going to wait for Tom to get back to me and I'm going to read some more, but man I think lynching ETR is a low percent play.
I think its much more likely that the wolves came to town though when this got aired because MAN did a lot of opportunistic votes get thrown out in all directions.
The only thing I can say is that Tom and Last both went into what I might call "Damage control" and sort of attacked this play immediately. They are also the two most active players though.
I feel pretty sure this is not Town Rhand. Vote Rhand
idk how low percentage it is. Just made clear my stance on the matter but everyone and their mother is just tossing votes there.
A lot of the votes could be opportunistic or bussy, and the best way to know which were looking for specifically is still to flip him.
What are you seeing as immediate damage control from me exactly? Posting and going to bed? Or waking up amd giving my honest assessment of the happenings?
Is it me and last both saying "well obviously its not this team"? Because... like that is pretty obvious fmpov but beyond that who the **** actually thinks thsts a viable team? Tau must have been reaction gauging, and kami is orobably just scum so
Welp this is it until someone else posts.
Maybe ill go to bed...
Think i wanna vote tubba amd make that the etr counterwagon.
Mind still scummy and ill prolly case him toDay, and dont like what lngrr is choosing to focus on upon his return.
But tubba as counter makes w/v wagons most likely and i dig that.
I kind of like rhand reacting to etr/tau too. He mostly ignored the gambit and solved based on roles. #575 is a pretty good post actually.
@Tom what push on last? The one I admitted was fake and entirely to generate reactions? Or me badgering him post Tau gambit because he's been freaking out?
Anyway yeah I'm playing weirdly this game. You're definitely right that I overrated the w/w possibity. I forgot not flipping neighbors just destroys them. Would have been nice if someone read my posts enough to comment on that oversight but c'est la vie.
Anyway I agree that there are probably scum inside of tubba/LnGrrrR/KA but I don't think I can get past all the EtR weirdness and his scummy catch up post (almost entirely sequential except asking why I'm scummy before getting to the verb meta and then giving a positive reaction much later. I wasn't seen as scummy before that.)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Grape, yes the one after tau. Badgering, pushing, whatever. Think its either malicious or a remarkable misunderstanding of last as a player
Tell me about pushing me tomorrow if etr flips scum.
Youve already said you dont believe he outed his team. And i dont buy you thinking this is how i position myself as his buddy. So...
Ehhh it's a flaw of mine. It's why I had so many spats with DBS. I will sit and argue with someone endless and berate them. I don't really think Wisp is scum but I think there is like a 5% chance that EtR actually outed the scum team.
Anyway it's an unfortunate quirk of mine to try to make Wisp be a different sort of player and harraunge him to my POV.
On you I think there is a small but real chance EtR messed up badly. I've found the way you've handled me all game strange. It feels to me like you've been finding reasons to want me lynched without thinking I'm scum. I know you now consider me important positionally but it seemed to be the case basically from the word go. Before I was wagoned. It feels unnatural which is an odd vibe to get from you as even as scum you are remarkably good at feeling right tonally. But here on this push you don't.
Alright so we start with kj town. Dont feel the need to give this more words
If thats right, grape is town too.
Last is still a power role
Rod does not feel like he knows... anything at all. Much less too much
Rhand i think is just solving naturally. Grape meta, tau v etr by setup gaming. I buy it all.
Tau seems excited about finding things
Vaimes unlikely scum with grape town.
Ruma i just dont want to lynch hes rodemy lite.
DV i said fine for now but this is all that gets him
*slot that hasnt posted
Etr hate his "well tau could be neutral, idk" type stuff and hes just a little antispewy. Still hasnt caught up or given real reads, though he did look at his wagon a little
Kami looks the most like an etr buddy, and spouted some agenda-y nonsense about the whole sitch
Lngrr is kinda... crappy focus and has attempted to redirect all pressure by being likeable. And frankly thats my move
Tubba is oozing agenda, especially in etr/tau v/v
Mindreaver- stay tuned
kj/grape
Last/rod
rhand
Tau/vaimes/ruma
dv
Replacement
etr
kami/lngrr
Tubba
mind
Ehhh it's a flaw of mine. It's why I had so many spats with DBS. I will sit and argue with someone endless and berate them. I don't really think Wisp is scum but I think there is like a 5% chance that EtR actually outed the scum team.
Anyway it's an unfortunate quirk of mine to try to make Wisp be a different sort of player and harraunge him to my POV.
On you I think there is a small but real chance EtR messed up badly. I've found the way you've handled me all game strange. It feels to me like you've been finding reasons to want me lynched without thinking I'm scum. I know you now consider me important positionally but it seemed to be the case basically from the word go. Before I was wagoned. It feels unnatural which is an odd vibe to get from you as even as scum you are remarkably good at feeling right tonally. But here on this push you don't.
so you think youve acted strange, i treated you strangely but not in a way that makes sense from scum me, so i must be scum?
Hold on I acted strange in a way that's normal for me (you were in Zero Escape, Pirates, and Arkham) so I wouldn't think it would be strange to you despite objectively being strange.
As for your second point your handling of ZDT is GB is the exact vibe I'm getting. It's a focus and force that doesn't make sense for the read behind it.
Anyway there's also the 5% EtR screwed up and if he flips scum that goes up to like whatever percentage 1 out of 6 is.
@Tom I also don't believe you think if EtR is scum he is buddies with KA who he went back to claim he meant to signal as a buddy. With Tubba for that matter.
I'm not there on Vaimes yet but I get your read. I've not seen him scum in ages (ever?) do I have more respect for his game than you do (wrongly?).
I'm lower on Riku than you but I haven't paid a ton of attention to him.
I loved Mindreavers entrance but the lack of follow up hasn't been ideal and I probably liked it more than I should have. It just felt genuine.
@Tom
Where do you go if I flip scum? Does that clear up anything regarding Tau/EtR? If you take EtR’s claim that I was one of his intended scum outs, and it’s true, do you not need to flip EtR next? If I flip town where do you go? What does that mean for EtR’s list? I don’t understand how we don’t need an EtR flip, what is the logic behind not uncovering him?
it doesnt make sense for town!etr to do anything hes done, nor does it make sense for scum!etr, thats the problem from my point of view
Anyways the case for Rhand. When I Iso'd Rhand I thought I was going to see 5 posts total, but he actual has 24!
In Rhands first meaningful post after the RVS he Votes grapefruit for meta reasons.
Then follows it up with a "Tom is town" on post 120 YEAH ok LOL.
He then follows up with a Bad vote on Tom so ztstd is town. Which I think is really bad reasons.
Rhands next three posts he takes no stances at all.
Claims scum lngr, doesn't ever purse.
Spends the rest of his posts talking about his Grape Meta read.
Then does the EtR, Tau "Discrediting all the top town"
Says he wants to sort out if there is a dichotomy, then I guess at some point concludes that there is and votes EtR.
Why? because of town Neighbor to town(Even though this was never claimed by EtR) and the extra ability(Which because EtR hadn't full claimed we never knew about).
Its such a weak point.
Talks about Kami wanting the lynch cascade being worrying and then ATTEMPTS HIS OWN lynch cascade. Onto Kami.
I'll look over his posts again to see if I can find anything that points in some kind of direction.
I also like getting others opinions on people that I might be questioning my own reads on.
If he's town it's weird he signaled the wrong people in a very deliberate fashion. And weird he kept it under wraps but didn't come out saying "yes Tau said this and I didn't believe his claim at all but I wanted to see how he handled it and I learned x." Plus he ignored my questions about his catch up post.
Town ETR it actually makes more sense. I'm going to sheep Sir Chris's response from when I tried this.
You should give me a read list then so I can verify that's what you're doing.
Grape, Last
Tom, Rhand
ETR, Tau (needs solving category)
August, DV, LnGrrR, Mindreaver
Vaimes,Rod
KA, Riku
Tubba
As usual, within tiers no order.
What about townEtR not outing claimed scum? Or throwing out names semi randomly? I can’t understand how that play makes sense from a town perspective. If scumTau made a gambit day one to save buddy LngGrr, several people are falling for it, what does townEtR gain by having those players want to kill him and start working through a list he made up?
For me it’s not even so much about EtR’s alignment anymore but how his list is affected by his alignment.
I just feel scumTau does this differently. He had a masterful performance in F&E pretending to scum hunt. This gambit seems to convoluted to be real, for minimal gains. If it works and he saves LngGrr today, EtR flips town and he does tomorrow, and LngGrr the day after. That’s two for oneing yourself and I can’t see it.
@Etr/Tau
How does your chat work? Was it a night 0 thing? When was the cutoff for communication?
You clearly haven't read everything I've written, but let me try and sum it up.
His actions don't make any sense from scum. Not town. Scum have immediate ability to verify this claim. They look at their partners and say oh there are three of us added up. A forth being in the game could be possible.
Why then upon realizing this does he not just talk in the neighborhood?
Its also a Shadow game so its more likely then not that scum have day chat. So, I'm not buying this play as scum even more then.
Lets assume for the sake of argument there is a neutral in this game(Or a lost scum) and so there are only three scum currently known.
This still doesn't get around why he just doesn't talk in the neighborhood the next day.
He also signals three people which takes us to four including himself and then FIVE with this lone wolf. That's not balanced. So we have one fake claim in our scum claiming truthfully to our neighbor and faking another claim? Because the only way a scum could think this is true is if there are only three scum members, but he has signaled that there are four scum members.
AND on top of that scum have to believe that the mod placed them in a neighborhood from Day 1 AND told the lone wolf that their neighbor was a scum member.
Furthermore Tau is a really experienced player from the sounds of it and he ran through these same numbers and determined this was a good play? It goes beyond reason for any scum member to accept this. The only thing this is ever going to likely do is **** around with town members. That's it.
Its a low percent play that has gotten an even worse low percent lynch.
This is FPS at its worse.
And then ETR FPSing back.
The only thing that is giving me pause as I work through this is that I need to revisit the ETR part where he claims he only signaled two others which would actually make some of this MAYBE make sense from a scum perspective.
Grape: I'll out this now since the wagon on him is unlikely to get any bigger. Was gonna wait till L-2 to maximize the VCA potential but it maxed out at I think 5. I'll do that later.
I'm Manuela, and I have a special ability. I know one person's alignment at the beginning of the game. That was Grape. He is town. I've also been provided with his name (I guess to prove my claim) if its necessary.
Last: His reactions and play have been on par with town Last that I've played with many a time. I'm pretty sure this is town last.
Tom: I hope hope hope I;m not jumping the gun on this, but this seems like town tom. I recall a post he made earlier that seemed like a genuine reaction to the EtR/Tau situation (It started "Bull***** solving EtR solves this game" or something. I think that was an actual reaction.
Rhand: I'm back and forth on him a bit but... I think I like how he saw the 'verbiage' tell and acted on it. I think he actually thinks he had something there. His EtR vote was bad, but I'm willing to overlook that in favor of the confidence that this tell is probably genuine.
EtR/Tau: I'll unpack this later when I have time. It might not be within the next 24 hours though due to work. After work Thurs is morel ikely given the amount of work necessary, though maybe in the hour I have after work tomorrow I can do it?
August, DV: August is null for obvious reasons.
DV I wanna look at the person he replaced as well as him and form an opinion that way. I've agreed with some of his points though, so there's that.
Vaimes: Made some posts I haven't liked, and overall hasn't seemed like townVaimes.
Rod: This happened fairly recently. Some of his votes have been questionable. Part of this is a bit of gut though. I've agreed with some of the stuff he's done as well.
KA: This is literally "haven't seen anything townie from him" despite having a good amount of posts. Just doesn't feel town/.
Riku: Pokes his head in to do basically nothing every now and then then disappears again. I've discussed why he's scum for it, but I'd prefer a better reason than "He's lurking and that's meta" so he's orange.
Tubba: I'd prefer to make a seperate post on him but again no time. Suffice it to say I'm seeing a lot of Low Fantasy in him this game, plus I recall thinking this game that he's purposely missing the forest for the trees.
why did you out that?
Fancy Play Syndrome, its when people do stupid stuff because they think it works, but they actually are just selfish, and somehow correlate one positive outcome to meaning its always a positive outcome
Riku is edging ever so slightly towards his scum meta that I can agree on
But just gonna say the rodemy and ruma reactions to etr v tau are the first that actively looked like people that don't know anything.
Which... yeah its rod and ruma but its something
K. Laterz
And interesting... If I can ask what's your flavor KJ?
@DV I get that it doesn't make any sense as scum. It would be incredibly bone headed to believe tau there. But equally I cannot make heads or tails of his thought process if town there. I don't buy the reasoning chris gave on Tom applying here. And I can't come up with any logic that makes sense to me for how he handled it if he's town. His explanations lack any interest in solving Tau from this whole mess don't feel like a townie.
His main analysis was in the chat it was NAI and in thread Tau was a little townie which is hardly indicative of solving.
You have to look at it this way though.
What makes more sense?
Scum? Or Town?
Scum we can agree it makes no sense. (We might also agree that Tau saying indicate by having @s with 4 or more also doesn't make sense for a town member to say either. Fundamentally, you have to accept that Tau's play makes no sense as town either for all of the reasons I've discussed.)
You see the Town in Tau, but seem unable to see the town in ETR for basically doing the same FPS bull*****.
ETR decided to see where it took him and not out it. Something similar to what Tom thought. Let's see where it goes. That's incredibly townie.
Your basic premise is that a town member would have to reveal(Or should reveal) this information. Fundamentally, I disagree. ETR himself acknowledged that he thought it was town gambiting.
Things to recognize about ETR look at Ghost Busters, not the best play. Add FPS on top of that and suddenly its a WTF is going on.
Also what do you mean his lack of interest in solving Tau? What exactly is there to be gained from the Tau gambit for Tau's alignment? He's said he thinks Tau is town. Grape are you reading the same game as me or just spouting opinions?
With the claims matching, t/t is the most likely option because I don’t think shadow would create a win more situation.
@tau: do you also not know what ability you can unlock?
Grape / Kami / tubba? / ?
@DV: don’t go and tunnel me and then say stuff like “not sure who was townreading him”. You’re only reading my posts it seems?
Grape: I'm good at reading people. You can't put nothing past me. My job is effectively to find threats to the family.
Aside from kj claim he has scum equity-- especially with mind, a bit with vaimes, and most especially if etr/tau are both town.
But now i guess it would have to be with kj. Which seems even less real now than it did when he first made the townread
Anyway
This is even more a scumpost in the v/v etr/tau world. Which ive still got as second most likely after etrscum/towntau.
This would be scumtubba projecting pretty hard on pushing this (in that case) false dichotomy to its conclusion.
Whereas the kami bull***** "this solves the game" makes sense from an etr partner (or a bad townie, to be fair)
The other etr votes all fall somewhere in this spectrum but i think tubba/kami are the extremes
Or possibly theres 3 extremes and rodemy is the other one but that shape gets wonky if someone busts and looks like theyre bussing tau and im rambling again
Gonna post this and continue reading
I did my morning skim only. Will read more later.
What have I missed?
It does explain your weird behaviour around the Grape wagon lol.
unvote, vote Kami
I’ll get to analysing people’s reactions to the Grape thing later.
To me both make very little sense. I ended up deciding scum makes more sense but not by a ton.
I find your argument very unpersuasive due to you insisting that letting it ride is the good and correct play but also reminding me that you don't think I should expect EtR to play well. I believe you think both those things but it feels like you being aggressive rhetorically to prove the point.
I've been trying all day to think through what I'd do as town and I need to throw that metric out as it's stuck on I'd open it to discussion immediately. Since your post I've been trying to think of how I'd handle it if I was letting it ride.
I'm still really struggling with the claims of incorrect signaling. I get that's your point about the botched claim in GB. But this looks so deliberate. The formatting makes it clear it was an attempt to signal and the questions don't have any special relevance to their targets.
But let's take your assumption it was a mistake and EtR is town. He gets the message, flubs playing along with it and is instantly wagoned overnight.
And his response is to repeatedly say "Yes that's what happened, I didn't think he was scum so I tried to test him, but I screwed up my test anyway, and this is my role, and the people I named make no sense as a scum team and I didn't even mean to name them. And that's all I have."
If I was town and had the foresight to make that play and Tau outed it instantly the first thing I'd do is dig into people's votes and figure out what happened and try to find scum. Instead he talks to Tau, LW, and Tom and primarily says "well this is weird." That doesn't seem like a thing I'd do as town. Or a thing I'd imagine careless but insightful (because say what you will about the claim in GB EtR did some solid hunting and analysis) town to do.
Whatever
@kj you asked me a bunch of questions.
I reserve the right to change my mind about not answering them later.
Most of them ive already answered though im not really leaving that much unsaid this game
i mean, i was discounting w/w because that not how neighbors work very often. But now theyve both claimed that neighbor might not even show up in their flips i probably cant...
They dont look like buddies at all though and im still at v/w>v/v>w/v>w/w
There was more of tubba in this chunk that looked like riling up rodemy to make sure he can lynch etr *and* tau.
Hes kinda exuding that agenda...
So (for a 5th time apparently) kj's tubba read is still bad but it might be correct anyway
One thing kj quoted was the vaimes read i made.
Still works. If grape really is town they way that was going down after rhands meta thing scumvaimes doesnt take that and add a bunch of reasons why towngrape should die. Hes just not the type of scum player that wants to take control of mislynching a townie when theres already someone else doing a good job of it. Hes way too worried about looking bad as scum.
It makes a lot of sense as w/w, or as townvaimes, in both cases its just someone under scrutiny
someone under scrutiny so vaimes went to look at them. If theyre w/w in order to not look bad, if vaimes is town because thats what tou do if someone is a topic of conversation
So yeah, if grape is really town, vaimes is highly likely to be as well
Ezpz
Tau's post about his gambit had all but no effect on my reads itself.
Like, no change on etr, moves tau up just because it looks more like a thing he tried to see what would happen than a plan to get townies lynched.
Etrs reaction, and specifically his stance on tau since, definitely has scum equity. He got a little better once it calmed down a little (not that still at L2 and almost definitely dying early this game is calm but you know what i mean, once the frenzy died down) but etr is a pretty chill dude and i can imagine his scummiest posting coming only when rattled when hes scum (ftr this is a personality read i dont know etrs scumgame at all)
But thats not enough for me to think hes more likely scum than mind, or lngrr. Or even tubba/kami but their percentages change so drastically based on etr flip that thats not actually relevant i guess...
And knew youd scumread vaimes regardless of frankly either your alignment or his because you're a salt mine.
Not loving your townleans on tau/grape. Towndv usually stubbornly sticks that type of player at "could be scum". But "could be town" isnt that far off i suppose.
Didn't actually try to guess your read of me...
Kami read only one that makes me think "partner" just cause stick him lower but still defend is such a prime buddy slot, but its kinda eh even as im currently thinking about scumkami
Tubba read looks good
Kj read looks pretty bad
Meh you can be town for a bit lets see how it feels.
A lot of the votes could be opportunistic or bussy, and the best way to know which were looking for specifically is still to flip him.
What are you seeing as immediate damage control from me exactly? Posting and going to bed? Or waking up amd giving my honest assessment of the happenings?
Is it me and last both saying "well obviously its not this team"? Because... like that is pretty obvious fmpov but beyond that who the **** actually thinks thsts a viable team? Tau must have been reaction gauging, and kami is orobably just scum so
Maybe ill go to bed...
Think i wanna
vote tubba amd make that the etr counterwagon.
Mind still scummy and ill prolly case him toDay, and dont like what lngrr is choosing to focus on upon his return.
But tubba as counter makes w/v wagons most likely and i dig that.
I kind of like rhand reacting to etr/tau too. He mostly ignored the gambit and solved based on roles. #575 is a pretty good post actually.
Anyway yeah I'm playing weirdly this game. You're definitely right that I overrated the w/w possibity. I forgot not flipping neighbors just destroys them. Would have been nice if someone read my posts enough to comment on that oversight but c'est la vie.
Anyway I agree that there are probably scum inside of tubba/LnGrrrR/KA but I don't think I can get past all the EtR weirdness and his scummy catch up post (almost entirely sequential except asking why I'm scummy before getting to the verb meta and then giving a positive reaction much later. I wasn't seen as scummy before that.)
Tell me about pushing me tomorrow if etr flips scum.
Youve already said you dont believe he outed his team. And i dont buy you thinking this is how i position myself as his buddy. So...
Anyway it's an unfortunate quirk of mine to try to make Wisp be a different sort of player and harraunge him to my POV.
On you I think there is a small but real chance EtR messed up badly. I've found the way you've handled me all game strange. It feels to me like you've been finding reasons to want me lynched without thinking I'm scum. I know you now consider me important positionally but it seemed to be the case basically from the word go. Before I was wagoned. It feels unnatural which is an odd vibe to get from you as even as scum you are remarkably good at feeling right tonally. But here on this push you don't.
If thats right, grape is town too.
Last is still a power role
Rod does not feel like he knows... anything at all. Much less too much
Rhand i think is just solving naturally. Grape meta, tau v etr by setup gaming. I buy it all.
Tau seems excited about finding things
Vaimes unlikely scum with grape town.
Ruma i just dont want to lynch hes rodemy lite.
DV i said fine for now but this is all that gets him
*slot that hasnt posted
Etr hate his "well tau could be neutral, idk" type stuff and hes just a little antispewy. Still hasnt caught up or given real reads, though he did look at his wagon a little
Kami looks the most like an etr buddy, and spouted some agenda-y nonsense about the whole sitch
Lngrr is kinda... crappy focus and has attempted to redirect all pressure by being likeable. And frankly thats my move
Tubba is oozing agenda, especially in etr/tau v/v
Mindreaver- stay tuned
kj/grape
Last/rod
rhand
Tau/vaimes/ruma
dv
Replacement
etr
kami/lngrr
Tubba
mind
Like i know thats reductive but
...
As for your second point your handling of ZDT is GB is the exact vibe I'm getting. It's a focus and force that doesn't make sense for the read behind it.
Anyway there's also the 5% EtR screwed up and if he flips scum that goes up to like whatever percentage 1 out of 6 is.
I'm not there on Vaimes yet but I get your read. I've not seen him scum in ages (ever?) do I have more respect for his game than you do (wrongly?).
I'm lower on Riku than you but I haven't paid a ton of attention to him.
I loved Mindreavers entrance but the lack of follow up hasn't been ideal and I probably liked it more than I should have. It just felt genuine.
Where do you go if I flip scum? Does that clear up anything regarding Tau/EtR? If you take EtR’s claim that I was one of his intended scum outs, and it’s true, do you not need to flip EtR next? If I flip town where do you go? What does that mean for EtR’s list? I don’t understand how we don’t need an EtR flip, what is the logic behind not uncovering him?